A Message from Bishop Martyn Minns

FYI - I now have Bishp Lee’s letter to the Diocese up at BabyBlueOnline.org.

I thought the word “bishop” was capitalized when used as a title next to a name.  Would you be willing to expound on your stylistic choice of the lower case, Matt?

AA,

Nothing to expound on. I havethought bishop was always lower case. But I’ll be happy to change it if I am wrong.

Easy mistake Father Matt,could have been that several of the Bishops you’ve had opportunity to comment on theologically or characterwise may not have qualified for the large Bishop(Spong,VGR & co) designation,gratefully Bishop Minns does.

When the sentence is “the bishop arrived for tea” then the “b” is small.  But if it is “Bishop Smith arrived for tea” then the B is cap.  Since this is being used as part of his name, I think it’s a cap.

But I don’t think Martyn would really care.  He just wants to be called Martyn.

bb

It is clear that Fr. Minns does not understand the Episcopal Church and has nothing but scorn for the Windsor Report. I have admired his passion for justice, but am appalled by his spiritual arrogance.

Does anyone know if he will affiliate with the Yorubas, the Fulanis or the Ibos in his Nigerian episcopate—or are they just using him as he is using them? Does he even know the tribal affiliation of his brother Nigerian bishops? How do you spell “sham?”

Yes we do, e-p-i-s-c-o-p-a-l m-a-j-o-r-i-t-y

Peter Lee has days left as an Anglican Communion bishop.

Once he is excommunicated, his diocese and those neighbouring to him will rejoice that a fully recognised, newly ordainted, Christian, Anglican bishop will be on hand to provide oversight, and more importantly, discipline!

“Peter Lee has days left as an Anglican Communion bishop.
Once he is excommunicated, “

Sinner, I can’t, for the life of me, figure out why you said this or how you could possibly know this!

“But if it is “Bishop Smith arrived for tea” then the B is cap.”

Babyblue.  I don’t think this is correct.  I think the sentence should read: “Bishop Smith arrived to change the locks.”  But, of course, the B would be cap in either case.

William:  Should it not read:  “Bishop Smith arrived to observe The Changing of the Locks”, since this is one of the rare ceremonial duties he must observe in the course of his duties?”  In which case, both “Changing” and “Locks” would be capitalized, of course.

No, No, DO, that is only a DUTY in the Orthodox Progressive Sect.

Bishop Minns, like Bishop Moyer in Pennsylvania, is now a duly consecrated bishop in the Church of God.  As such he is entitled to a certain amount of respect and even deference.  He may not be included in the TEC House of Bishops, but that is not the point.  He has oversight of parishes in the U.S. and he has an ecclesiastical superior—Archbishop Akinola.  You ,may not like or approve of the arrangement,  but that does not call for any kind of mockery.

TBWSF,

Why do you assume that Bishop Minns is completely ignorant of all things Nigerian?  Having said that I think he has no business staying at Truro…

GB - Let me be the first to apologize if you think my comments showed any disrepect to Bishop Minns.  I have the highest regard for him and the work he is about.  I was only playing off of DO and Bill’s humor.  Please forgive me if I offended.

Fr.Woodward,
Is that your best shot,good grief.
You buy into and attempt to sell ludicrous theology and practice and then have the gall to resort to accusing both Bp. Minns and the Nigerians of committing a sham.
Ironic,given the recent visit of Khatami to the National Cathedral,feting a persecutor of Christians,now that’s a sham.

Dumb Ox

because - as has been repeated elsewhere - later this month
the Primates of the Global South will provide their final structural and pastoral solution to the problem posed by ECUSA.

Minns is part of that solution;  Lee is not.

Lee is currently in impaired communion with the vast majority of Anglicans worldwide: by the end of the month, he will be excommunicate.

Bishop Minns,... may not be included in the TEC House of Bishops, but that is not the point.

actaully I think it is precisely the point. The time is soon, indeed it is already here, where - by definition - a bishop who is included in the TEC House of Bishops cannot claim to be recognised as an “orthodox duly consecrated bishop” within the Anglican Communion.

When the sentence is “the bishop arrived for tea” then the “b” is small.  But if it is “Bishop Smith arrived for tea” then the B is cap.

BabyBlue,

Thank you for you help in clarifying this. So when “the bishop arrives with armed guards to sieze your church’s computers and change all the locks,” it’s a small “b,” but when “Bishop Smith arrives with armed guards to sieze your church’s computers and change all the locks,” it’s capitalized?

Armed guards in Virginia - hmmm ...One hopes in Virginia we are more inclined to drink tea then change the locks.  Of course, at Truro there are so many doors I wish anyone well who wishes to change the locks.   You can say quite honestly that there are many doors that lead to Truro.

bb

A small correction, but when “a bishop arrives with armed guards to seize all of your assets” it is a small b.

When “the Bishop arrives with armed guards to seize all of your assets” it is a capital B.

It depends upon whether we are speaking about bishops in general seizing assets, or a particular Bishop seizing assets, even if he/she is not specifically named. Hope this helps

“One hopes in Virginia we are more inclined to drink tea then change the locks” 
Virginians are presumably grateful for small mercies such as that the dumping of tea occurred in Boston harbour and not a single Virginian was deprived of his/her tea back in 1775.

Perhaps only New England bishops change locks and take computers (a Yankee habit, doubtless) so Truro ought to be safe.
Except for the tea.  Guard the church tea!

Let’s not engage in false witness.  The guards were not armed.  Given that all parties were Episcopalians, armed guards would have been declasse.  OTH, with Baptists, definitely armed guards.  ‘Cuz Baptists would have been packing heat.  Of course, Baptists don’t have bishops.

In Virginia, I’m not sure.  Do Virginia gentlemen still duel?

So, it should be: “If a bishop arrives with two computer hackers to break into and seize your church computer (there was only one), a locksmith to change the locks, and unarmed guards to make sure you can’t get back in . . .” then that’s a small b.

But “If Bishop Smith arrives with two computer hackers . . . and unarmed guards, etc.” then it’s capital B.

I would hope that as part of our ecumenical efforts with other denominations that we can come to a common view whether the guards should be armed or not when a bishop or the Bishop comes to seize the assets.

Perhaps they are Armed when Bishop Smith comes and unarmed when it’s only a bishop?

Hmm.  Is a crozier a weapon?  Could it be so conceived in the hands of a bishop… or of Bishop Smith?  Might then “an armed bishop arrive with hackers, guards and locksmiths…” or might that be Lock Smiths?

Or, rather than guards, might he simply bring a verger with his “rod”?  Or perhaps “...the Verger, Rod…”  I confess to much confusion, although always thought that particular liturgical device a bit sinister…

“a bishop who is included in the TEC House of Bishops cannot claim to be recognized”

Sinner,  I had not thought of it that way, but you may very well be right. 

No doubt the hackers, lock changers, heat packers were not Episcopalians, but probably NASCAR Protestant red necks.  Too messy for the Elites.  Outsourcing is the new thing in business and church.

PM,

I would guess that you are correct. Those who actually hacked, changed locks, or secured the protection of the bishop would probably be useful Baptists or some other lower denomination.

The Bishop was Episcopalian, and his staff as well—didn’t his canon to the ordinary come with him?  So he could simply stand—in an Episcopal way, of course—in the parking lot while the actual workers did the work.

Perhaps the Baptists or other denominations might want to outsource *their* needs for majesterial authority, liturgical class, and exceptional garments to Episcopal bishops and clergy and such.  I don’t know that any other denominations have people who could fill those important roles—only Episcopal bishops could really do that sort of work. 

So in this way the trade deficit, so to speak, could be balanced.  Episcopalians could outsource those jobs to the other denominations, while our bishops and clergy could be outsourced to stand in parking lots and look regal.  Also I should think that ours would have developed exceptional legal skills and letter writing skills, so any Baptists who might need liturgically-sophisticated liaisons with attorneys or smooth, pastoral sounding yet canonical letters might outsource that need to Episcopalians.

Re TBWSF’s comment:
“Does anyone know if he will affiliate with the Yorubas, the Fulanis or the Ibos in his Nigerian episcopate—or are they just using him as he is using them? Does he even know the tribal affiliation of his brother Nigerian bishops?”

When I was a parishioner at Truro, I recall a favorite hymn at the church was “In Christ there is no east or west, in Him no south or north…” I daresay that when Martyn, who hasn’t a racist bone in his body, looks at humanity, he sees just that - humanity. Souls to be saved by the amazing love of Jesus.

What a beautiful tribute, sophy!  I can’t think of a higher compliment.

Re TBWSF’s comment:
“Does anyone know if he will affiliate with the Yorubas, the Fulanis or the Ibos in his Nigerian episcopate—or are they just using him as he is using them? Does he even know the tribal affiliation of his brother Nigerian bishops?”

I suppose it’s unnecessary to ask if this looks like racism? I don’t see this mentioned above, but I guess we can take it for granted!

This is rich:
Does anyone know if he will affiliate with the Yorubas, the Fulanis or the Ibos in his Nigerian episcopate—or are they just using him as he is using them? Does he even know the tribal affiliation of his brother Nigerian bishops? How do you spell “sham?”

Racism?  I don’t know, but I can spell sham.  It used to be spelled ecusa, but now it’s simply spelled tec.  Hopefully the Anglican Communion can help us sort all this out.

I wonder if we should post the comment about the Yoruba and other Nigerian tribes on Tom+‘s own website and see if his group don’t detect something racist in it—hate speech, in fact.  I can’t tell you how shocked I was to read it from an advocate of the “inclusive church.”

How interesting it would have been were someone to have asked about the comment or looked at it as reflecting on Martyn Minns instead of the kneejerk “He’s a racist!”

I have great respect for the Nigerian people, having worked with them for over twenty years. I have Fulani wood carvings, Ibo dashikis and wonderful memories of beautiful, dedicated people. My testimony before the Eames Commission (Windsor Report) focused on my experience with Ibos and Yorubas.

My comments had to do with the irony of wealthy Americans (or English ex-patriates) being consecrated in African churches, often very poor countries, without any concern about the poverty or the genocide going on in those countries. We now have proud American bishops from Rwanda who come back here to continue their upper middle class life styles instead of commiting themeselves to the grinding poverty and daily violence of the country in which they have been consecrated.

My credentials in regards to racism are probably OK. I was arrested in a civil rights demonstration back in 1965 and have been active ever since. An early member of ESCRU (The Episcopal Society for Cultural and Racial Unity), friends with Ralph Abernathy, Will Campbell and others in the forefront of the Civil Rights Movement, honored by the Governor of Kansas for my work, recently awarded the Ben Heller Award for Courage and Leadership with the California Farmworker Community, my work with the Sanctuary Movement featured in a PBS award winning documentary, “The New Underground Railroad,” part of their series on “Matters of Life and Death.”  I am now working on a multi-million dollar anti-racism program which will be funded by various national sports organizations—and am the author of Kansas City/Crisis, which was one of the most effective anti-racism programs in the country.

I list those things not to brag (I am way past that), but to illustrate how the assumptions of so many on this site can prove to be so wrong and unnecessarily hurtful. I am not hurt—I am appalled at the constancy of the attacks. Treat me and others as friends instead of an opportunity for “Gotcha” and growth is possible. Continue to jab and stab and misquote in order to isolate, and you are left with feelings of self-satisfaction and that is about all.
Tom Woodward

P.S.  I know the difference between the Nigerian tribes as well as their proud and not so proud heritage. Unlike Martyn Minns, I would never presume upon them for my own ecclesiastical advancement. As part of my family has, I would go to Nigeria in order to work among them as servant and support, but never to use them in this way.

Tom,
I take it you have talked with Martyn and know his intentions?

Another member of the 1968 generation:

“I was arrested in a civil rights demonstration back in 1965 and have been active ever since.”

What we need is that spray that Terence Mann/James Earl Ray brandished in the Field of Dreams to banish Ray Kinsella back to the 60s (tongue in cheek).

There’s a real implication in Tom Woodward’s comments that Nigeria isn’t a “real” church.  Rather, it’s just a pretend version of our advanced institution that those not good enough for glorious ECUSA can use to become faux bishops.  Needless to say, the Nigerians don’t see it that way.  It’s more liberal Western arrogance towards our Anglican brothers and sisters in Africa, who, for the most part, have more robust, healthy churches that are reaching people for Christ in a way the tottering, bankrupt shell known as ECUSA isn’t here.  I’d say Nigeria is a superior vehicle for, “ecclesiastical advancement,” in God’s Church, if not man’s.

Re: “We now have proud American bishops from Rwanda who come back here to continue their upper middle class life styles instead of commiting themeselves to the grinding poverty and daily violence of the country in which they have been consecrated.”

Interesting that, for all of TBWSF’s vaunted understanding of Africans, that he refuses to take *their word* for what *they* are doing in consecrating Mynns as bishop. 

Interesting that he *will not believe* that the Africans wish to offer Anglican support to those ex-ECUSAns who wish to be Anglican rather than the interesting brand of liturgical Unitarianism that 815 leaders wish to espouse.

No—TBWSF wishes to state that it is Martyn Minns, the white upper middle class English person, who is caling the shots and using the Africans and the Africans are *unable* to make decisions based on their integrity and theology.

Interesting that TBWSF simply won’t *allow* Africans to make their own decisions.  So insistent is he that that CANNOT BE, that he perforce gives Martyn Minns the power to be elected and consecrated bishop by Nigerians.

A more condescending, faux victimhood, pretentious set of assumptions I have rarely seen.

Jackie,
  I have not talked with Martyn Minns, though I have read some of the things he has written, the long NYT piece on him and Peter Lee (with whom I worked closely for three years), and have talked extensively with several people who know him. As they say, the record is fairly complete. I am aware of many of his actions—some of which have been laudatory, many of which have been destructive of the church.

The David Hicks accusations: I gave the details of the debunking of his story the first time this came up. They are widely known and accepted.

Of course, I have not demeaned the Nigerian Churches. As you know, they are not all of one mind: several oppose Peter Akinola’s leadership in nearly every matter. I have had good relationships with several African bishops and leading lay people over the years—most, but not all of whom are clearly in the evangelical camp. Peter Akinola knows how to grow the church, but based on so many of his actions and statements, I do not trust that they represent the teachings of Jesus Christ. We will see. His remarks certainly do not flow from the Jesus Christ I know. But did he do well in the university?  Yes, he did. I did very well at Harvard, but then I remember that Ted Kozinski was a classmate who also did well there. Ali Khan, future shah of Iran was a class ahead of me—I would not want to be judged by the standards of either man. A fine education does not mean that one will be wise, ethical or effective. George Bush and I attended the same prep school, Andover, and we each received a degree from Harvard—I would not trade my place in life or in history with his for anything in the world.

Tom,
Unless you posted those specifics on David Hicks somewhere else, you haven’t posted them here.  Nor did I see where you posted them on EM.  I did see where you stated that you had spoken with your brother (not sure if it is relation or friend) who disputed the testimony of David Hicks and called him sleazy.  Your words - not mine.  I have searched the internet extensively and have not found any article “debunking” this claim.  I ask you again, please provide us with something specific - other than the impression of your brother that they are not accurate.  Otherwise you are leaving slander on the table.  I believe we have all stated here we are not interested in myth or emotions considered fact.  You are obviously a very important person in the Progressive movement.  I think you owe - a minimum - an explanation of your remarks back up with factual information.

On Martyn, could I ask if you have talked to any of Martyn’s friends and suppoters?  Are your extensive conversation with those who disagree with him?  I am sure we could put you in touch with about 1,000 or so of people who work with him on a regular basis - if you are interested.  Better yet, you are brothers in Christ.  Have you tried picking up the telephone or sending him an email?

I forgot to comment on your fellow alumni -
Education is certainly only one tiny aspect of what makes us.  Some believe it marks the character of a person, but I have never really agreed with that.  I have know individuals who are so well educated they can’t think past the covering on their books and on the other hand people who never graced the halls of higher education and were the salt of the earth steeped in wisdom and humility. 
Certainly Harvard has produced many who they would prefer not to claim.  We’ll let history be the judge of who those people might be.

See, here’s what really aggravates about the pompous Rev Woodward.  He’s incredibly thin-skinned and sensitive, to the point he won’t even debate Witt and Kennedy any more.  But he sure can dish it out.  See how glibly he claims Bishop Minns is “destructive of the church”.  Even suggesting he might hold views contrary to the historic apostolic faith gives him the vapors but on the other hand he can’t trust that Akinola is representing the teachings of Jesus Christ.  He assumes the worst possible motives for us “neo-puritans (not a perjorative term)” but howls in offense when we don’t just love everything he writes.  Sigh…

To elaborate:  the Rev Woodward just assumes (knows it to be fact) that the power mad Minns has cleverly forced himself on the Nigerian church to finally reach his career goal- Bishop!  Not a chance that Minns wasn’t seeking this role.  Not a chance that the Nigerans were sincere in wanting him for that role.  Not a chance that Minns accepted because he believes that he can further the work of the church in this role.  No, somehow this man, totally ignorant of all things Nigerian (oh, the irony of that!), hoodwinks those poor ignorants into his dream job!  No sir, the Rev Woodward is beneath any sort of “hurtful” or “appalling” attacks…

“I did very well at Harvard…”

This just goes to show that doing very well at a “good” school necessarily means that one has learned the forms of coherent reasoning.  I am one of the downtrodden who went to a state school in the south (horrors) and the Bible College (sic)that Tom despises.

Add doesn’t to the first sentence.  See - my poor education shows right up!

Does anyone know if he will affiliate with the Yorubas, the Fulanis or the Ibos in his Nigerian episcopate—or are they just using him as he is using them? Does he even know the tribal affiliation of his brother Nigerian bishops? How do you spell “sham?”

The above is the second paragraph of TBWSF’s first comment.  I have followed through all of the tbwsf comments on this thread and unless I’ve missed one or two,  every single one contains arrogant, dismissive, comtemptuous, unsupported statements that are frankly not worth our bothering to answer.  Such comments are made without the slightest expectation of civil constructive discourse.  They are just the expression of an angry mind looking for a place to vent.  Perhaps, we should not respond to him.

BTW. Please notice my cunning use of the upper/lower case usage we were discussing earlier.  Are my application of TBWSF and tbwsf in order.  Please feel free to comment.  I shall be happy whether I am right or Wrong.

Bill

I agree that Tom appears a little thin skinned as well as the fact that he refuses to engage the real questions on the site.  I do think we should take the high ground and refrain from the invectives, even if Rev. Woodward does not.

I truly think the problem may be that most Reappraisers are surprised to find that we Reasserters have come to our beliefs through prayer and study and we take seriously the charge to be prepared to defend the Faith.  WG, you haven’t weighed in on the latest volley.

Re: “but based on so many of his actions and statements, I do not trust that they represent the teachings of Jesus Christ.”

Unsurprising . . . given TBWSF’s gospel and religion.

Re: “George Bush and I attended the same prep school, Andover, and we each received a degree from Harvard—I would not trade my place in life or in history with his for anything in the world.”

Heh. 

Neither would George Bush . . . ; > )

Rev.Mr.Woodward’s words remind me of my own lowly education as well Tony.
Tsk,Tsk,a poor demented Bible College Bachelors as well as an honors grad in a small seminary,woe is me…...poor conservative that I am oops…
The only thing is that when I found myself disagreeing with aspects of belief in the denomination I was associated with I gave up my credentials by my choosing rather than continue giving lip service or twisting the doctrines to suit myself.

So, reading here

http://www.churchpublishing.org/general_convention/pdf_const_2003/Title_IV_EcclDiscipline.pdf

looking for canons on racism (conduct unbecoming I think)
I found an interesting phrase in the abandonment canon:

a priest or bishop who undergoes “ a formal admission into any religious body not in communion with [ECUSA]”

what’s interesting is that this is backwards.  The test is not whether “ECUSA is in communion with the religious body”, but that the other body is in communion with ECUSA.

I guess the laywers drafting this canon never figured that ECUSA might maintain it is in communion with some other body (say, for the sake of argument, the Church of Nigeria) yet that the other body is not in communion with ECUSA.

Nigeria is not in communion with ECUSA.

Minns has accepted a formal position in the Church of Nigeria.

Also, the way the canon is written, once a complain is made the standing committee and bishop have very little choice in the matter: the standing committee must investigate.

anyone got their email?

Notice how the Church of Nigeria’s Ibo, Yoruba, and Fulani members get along better than ECUSA’s revisionist and orthodox members?

Irenaeus - I guess becuase they’re all Christians - right? - unlike in ECUSA!