FLASHBACK:  Upper South Carolina Rector [Holy Trinity, Clemson] Comments on Kendall Harmon

The space Canon Harmon says we need must be extended to all, including those with whom he disagrees.

I heartily agree with Kendall.  We all need Space Cannons!

Set my phasers to fun,

DoW

Sniper of the week

I got as far as the comment below (bolding is mine.)  After reading it I’m just…staggered.  At a total loss for words:

“I’m not Rev. Nieman, or anyone important, really, but I’m going to attempt to defend Nieman’s position, because I share it, and because I’m confident that Rev. Kendall’s rebuttal will prove instructive. However, this may not be the way that Rev. Nieman would defend his piece.
>>The creation narratives? Not referred to.< <Ga 3:28 :There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

For me, this nullifies Gen 3. “16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
17 And to the man F12 he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, “You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.””
To expand: While biological sex is a natural part of creation, gender is a result of the fall, and thus something that Christians, striving for sanctification, should struggle against.”

Thank goodness I now know Canon Harmon was part of the delegation that opposed Robinson’s election.  Now I know . . . gee, what?  What’s the big a-ha! this cookie-cutter heretic expects me to get?

This is the same kind of moral equivalency that says, “Why can’t Iran have The Bomb?  America does!”

Let’s see, Robinson proudly and openly practices behavior condemned in Holy Scripture and Tradition, and will probably work to his last days to ensure the church glorifies the same.  Mark Lawrence is undoubtedly a sinner like all of us, but, as far as I know, isn’t making a virtue out of it or demanding the church grant its blessing and approval to his sin.  Robinson is on the vanguard of those that would like to remake Christianity in their own images, while Mark Lawrence holds to the Faith once delivered, the Faith for which countless martyrs gave their lives rather than yield on any point.

Oh, yeah, these are exactly the same situations.  Canon Harmon is such a hypocrite.

</b>Yes, and now the Episcopal Majority {sic} has Bishop Schofield in its sights (insert dramatic horn flourish)

It is really kind of fun to read their essays.  It looks like they have the same author as the North Korean news agency.  Same rhetoric, logic, and commitment to truth.

My favorite line in the Schofield essay:
Such actions smack of lacks of both courage and hypocrisy.

in the pentultimate paragraph.

Priceless.

DoW

DoW, thanks for linking to that ridiculous, hyperventilating EM essay.  The irony – unintended, of course! – drips off the page:

“This measure is unprecedented in the past five centuries of Anglican polity and ecclesiology . . .”  Because PECUSA itself remained part of the CoE after the Revolution, right?  Er . . .

“It astonishes us how those who trumpet their faithfulness to catholic doctrine and practice continue to cherry-pick which of these suits them politically at the moment.”  Yeah, imagine!  The EM people would never do such a thing!

“We invite them to leave if their consciences can no longer tolerate the Anglican mode, while we would hope they would not depart.”  Just like EM-types did over women’s ordination, pansexuality and Unitarian influence in the church.  Not.

I applaud it not because the diocese of New Hampshire and the General Convention succeeded in making a political statement. I applaud it because it is clear that the New Hampshire diocese worked very hard to create a transparent election process that was open for the entire world to see. I applaud it because Gene Robinson was known and trusted among the people of the diocese, as he had served there for many years as Canon to the Ordinary. I applaud it because they elected him for all the reasons we would hope anyone would be elected: they trusted him to be an excellent pastor, skilled leader and a person of integrity.

This sounds frighteningly like Chris Rock’s routine on the idiocy of certain people who insist on being given credit for something they’re supposed to do:

“I take CARE of MY KIDS!!!”

“I ain’t NEVER been to jail!!!”

Wow, New Hampshire… you held an open election, and you elected someone who meets some of the bare minimum requirements for office. Give those folks a round of applause.

Another fine addition to the stable of orhodox priests in the Upper Diocese.  Bishop Henderson must be ecstatic!

Let us not forget that our own, dear Sarah Hey is in Greenville.  As I was reading the Greenville News Letters to the Editor, I could just imagine Sarah firing up her computer…...  and it put a smile on my face. 

John Neiman is my rector.  His first sermon at Holy Trinity was the first Sunday in March, 2006.  He has laid pretty low until now.  I see he is beginning to stretch his wings, and reveal his true colors.  I like John, and find him to be a caring rector. He knows I am a traditionalist, a reasserter, and most if not all of the parish does as well. John and I have had a number of cordial conversations about what is happening in the church.  Until three Sundays ago, his sermons did not get anywhere near a revisionist approach.  A realignment within TEC and WWAC is occuring even as I write these words.  John Nieman and I had a conversation a couple weeks ago, in which he noted that very fact.  I reckon he feels comfortable enough to begin teaching his sinful, heretical drivel now.  I had hoped he would just keep his mouth shut and learn, at least until after the Primates meeting.  I may not be able to hang on that long.  My heart hurts for Holy Trinity.  I will miss the parish, and my youngest daughter will probably still attend, as she lives in Clemson. 
I very nearly left when I learned that the committee had called Fr. Nieman, but was persuaded by several parishioners to “give him a chance”.  I wrote +Henderson about Fr. Nieman, and his substantial paper trail in Ann Arbor, and asked how that jibed with his(Dorsey’s) stated position following GC 2003.  I never received a reply.  (Heavy sigh)  In truth, I had felt fairly good about our diocese, particularly since we don’t have the rabid reappraisers like bps. Sauls and Alexander, and Andy Smith and Chuck Bennison.  However, as each day passes, my heart is heavier.  I cling to Christ’s cross, and count on His grace and forgiveness for my many sins.  In the words of Martin Luther, “baptizatus sum” or “I am baptized”. 
Charles
VCAC Bottom Feeder

Ho Hum, so another heretic pagan out of the closet.  Hope they keep it up.

For those of you at Holy Trinity, who have not yet had the experience we have suffered, here is the pattern of assault.
1. Every Sunday, you will be handed a new “program” upon entering for Morning Service. This program may or may not use BCP prayers, may or may not use traditional hymns. It has the affect of throwing you off balance—it leaves you confused, and thus weakened as a group. IT IS INTENTIONAL.

2. Your older parishoners (you know the ones, who have been providing the money for the last 40 years) will be attacked in private with personal accusations—“you are not really Christian”, “perhaps, you will be happier somewhere else”. Gradually over the course of 3-5 years the old timers are gone.
THIS IS INTENTIONAL—it removes the symbols of community direction.

3. From the begining of this new priest’s arrival you will notice new faces. They are the ones holding the counter machine in their little hands as they walk up and down the side aisle counting noses—-every Sunday.  You should not be surprised to learn they are “consultants”, most likely “Organizational Design Consultants”. THIS IS INTENTIONAL—they are preparing the case for “change”.

4. A new sub priestess—will be brought in. In our case she came from the very well known and powerful family of the AFL-CIO. THIS IS INTENTIONAL—it is meant to organize the women into one group. A group that is intended to replace a woman’s relationship to her husband.

5. Women’s bible study group turns to women’s politcal action group.

6. Parish wide “open” meetings will be professionally managed. That is to say your new minister has been given specialty training courses in ” meeting management”. He will let your voice be heard, but if you oppose him, you will be looking for another parish (See item #2). The unanimous opinions of rejection to the proposals made will disappear from the record of the meeting. They of course will be re-written in such a way as to make the speaker feel guilty. THIS IS INTENTIONAL

7. Within 2 years, you probably will not recognize anybody on the new “vestry”.  That is because they did not attend your church prior to the new minister arriving.  Let me see now where do these newcomers work? THIS IS INTENTIONAL—don’t be surprised if you start to hear the term “Change Agent” used around the place.

8. Ahh, finally, the coup d’etat.  As the need for basic and general repairs to your building arise, you will find that there is an opportunity to discuss future design choices for the building. That is to say: shall we stop using part of the building? How about we bring in a new architect and get a remodel. Should you choose this avenue, you will discover that your building is not needed, and you will be “merged” with the nearest parish (less expensive real estate). Your church building will be sold and the cash used for “misison”. THIS WAS ALWAYS THE INTENT!

Good Luck folks, but you must realize that taking over the ECUSA is just one more notch on their bedpost. The socialist liberals, have already taken control of our education system, they control most of the “tenured” governmental agency jobs up through upper level mid-management. In some states they have stolen the governor’s mansion through a fraudulent abuse of the election process. They have destroyed our legal system through their confused system of ethics. They now have a greater freedom to exercise eminent domain over your land holdings. They have gutted the funds of the Catholic church through many—but not all—bogus claims of childhood abuse. And now, finally they get to do the “big one” the religions of main stream America.  I will feel hopeful when I see white, American males organize and stand up for each other in academia. I will feel hopeful, when I see a judge, who understands that “the end never justifies the means”. I will feel hopeful when those, in positions of authority, can be held accountable in criminal court, when it is proven they ran a corrupted election. I will feel hopeful when there are women in leadership roles, who have the courage to stand alone in defense of a mutually agreed upon value system based on the Big 10. C’mon folks this is much bigger than one little parish.

God Bless Us All,

Apple Pie,

Very interesting comment, and I’m with you up to the part about white males banding together. Can you clarify what you mean by that?

In academia and in the downtown law offices, white (non-Jewish) European/American men have had their network of friendships decimated by the same process that has been applied to th ECUSA. Either,you go along with the feminist/gay community, or your die the slow death of a 1,000 cuts. Invidiual men in both the legal and the academic communities have been singled out and used as examples of what will happen to anyone, who speaks out. The lesson has been learned. Any attorney downtown knows that his female staff,the judge’s wife,  his own wife will pass on information to other female attorneys—in other words their devotion is not to their own clients. Rather the feminist network in this town has become so strong, so well organized that the female client in another firm is more important than your own client.  These men need to stand together and start to respond to that kind of internal sabotage. They need to support each other, and most importantly they need to organize against any man being silenced.

In academia, European/American, non gay, non Jewish men need to be organized in the process of approving tenure: one for your side, one for our side. They must refuse to be singled out and isolated, or to allow one of their own to be so treated. It will take courage, and most men in academia, or the legal community have not served in the millitary—they perhaps don’t understand the importance of individual courage and group courage. What happened to Larry Summers was evil—white men in academia let that happen because they were too afraid to stand up to the women/lesbian community. 

Currently, if a Europoean/American, non-gay,non Jewish male stands up to abusive actions of a Jewish male, there is an organized Jewish network so strong that the attacks will come from all over the world. From Jewish professors, who do not even attack the work, who do not even know the man, nor do they know the full story—the full story is not important. What matters is that no Jewish person shall be confronted. . . Just one word, from one Jewish person and the heat is on.  That model is also in place for the feminist/lesbian group. European/American, non gay, non Jewish men need to have a similar network—one that is that determined to protecting the individual no matter what!  Truth—the hell with that—no one is working with that ideal any more in either the legal, or the academic community. It is just about power . . .  Get organized gentlemen.

Apple Pie,

Let me save you a lot of typing.

There is no doubt that the prolonged campaign against masculinity over the past several decades in America and Europe has had disastrous effects on the church and the family. On that point you’ll get no argument from anyone here. But you’re not going to get a lot of traction talking about the need for an anti-female, anti-white, anti-Jew organization to “protect” us from anything. We have our mutually respectful differences on women’s ordination around here, but this is a Jew-friendly, minority-friendly, and women-friendly place, just like the broader cause we support.

Every so often, we have to remind everyone about our policies regarding comments, so here goes again:

- No over-the-top profanity, although the occasional vent is tolerated.

- No threats of physical violence.

- No racial/ethnic slurs, and this includes anti-Semitism. “Gays” and “homosexuals” is fine, but I’m still looking for a ruling on “queers” from those who describe themselves as such.

We do not moderate comments. We edit extremely few, and we remove even fewer. As I sometimes have to remind people who are taken aback at the frankness of some of the things that are said here, we throw a lot of elbows, and we expect people to have thick skin.

Comments do not necessarily reflect the views of Stand Firm, but there comes a point where the comments we allow to stand, do reflect on us. Yours gets left up only as an example of what threatens to cross the line.

On second reading, Applie Pie, your last paragraph about Jews disgusts me. You’ve been banned. Adios.

Let’s get this right:

Nieman’s revisionist friends find no room in ECUSA for orthodox Anglicans who fail to act as compliant dhimmas.

Yet Nieman wants to elbow his way onto T19.

Breathtaking!

Greg—just got back into the office from travel . . . good call.

Interestingly, Apple Pie sounds . . . well . . . sounds just like a person that a revisionist would dream up to . . . well . . .

; > )

Never mind.

Good call, Greg.

Re the previous comments from Apple Pie, I reckon he needs a tin-foil hat.

One other thing about Holy Trinity since the arrival of Fr. Nieman: the scheduled meetings of PFLAG (parents and friends of lesbians and gays) in Clemson are announced in the Sunday Bulletin. Those announcements had been absent following the departure of the previous rector in 2003.

Sarah,

What you mean is: Apple Pie is a troll, and a poorly-disguised one at that.

It surprises me that no one is picking up the first fact above—that Fr. Nieman is a candidate (actually one of five finalists) for bishop of Rio Grande. That diocese has had a seismic shift to have Fr. Nieman on the final list of nominees, as the public record above shows. Rio Grande previously elected Kelshaw and Steenson to lead them.

But this is the trend for previously conservative dioceses—the frog in the kettle, being cooked very, very slowly.

Fr. Nieman will be a formidable presence in the walkabouts. He is very bright, naturally cheerful, well-spoken, and will not be ruffled by clever conservative questions.

The remaining conservatives in Rio Grande better get together and plan well.

John Nieman once got sued by a parishioner for invasion of her privacy.  Some of the story is here:  http://books.google.com/books?id=kGMEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq;=“john+nieman”+&+newark+&+sparta&source=bl&ots=hGa9LKBGch&sig=Q_sIeo1z0bJb9GJCX-pk1P-C8A0&hl=en&ei=1T5wS-mPG8zL8Qbch739BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=“john nieman” & newark & sparta&f=false

“AP Online
12-04-1998
SPARTA, N.J. (AP) _ An Episcopal church has agreed to pay $42,500 to a woman who accused a pastor of humiliating her and her family when he gave sermons urging tolerance of her gay ex-husband.

Karen Scott of Sparta sued St. Mary’s Episcopal Church and its former pastor, the Rev. John Nieman, for his public chastising of parishioners who wanted Scott’s former husband, the church’s choirmaster, to be more discreet about his homosexuality.”

22, This what happens when the larger organization handpicks folks to “lead” the Diocese.  There have been prior discussions here about that in DioRG.