Off-Topic:  VT Court Asked To Value Love Of Man’s Best Friend

Our family’s pets, especially the dogs, have always been considered family.  But we accepted the responsibility to keep them safe.  The article doesn’t mention leash laws in the area, but it was the dog owners’ responsibility to keep their animal (even child for that matter) under their control.  They did not.  I think the neighbor has more than paid for the inconsiderate Scheeles’ irresponsibility and hope the court throws this “puppy” out.  The Scheeles are milking a bad situation for financial gain, IMO.

I do not believe in law suits in general, with an extremely rare exception. I rather believe in approaching wrongful death as a criminal matter. This applies to both the wrongful death of humans and companion animals. The loss of a loved one, human or animal, cannot be compensated by money. Rather, the man who shot that dog should do time in prison. While the owners should be responsible for not allowing their dog to run around, anyone who deliberately kills a pet for any reason other that self defense or defense of another should spend several years in jail. The man says he did not kill the dog deliberately, but he did shoot it deliberately. He is a dangerous and evil criminal who is a threat to society and deserves to be in prison.

My dog and cat are my family. There is no human being in the world who means anywhere close to me what they do.

Was this guy shooting a pellet rifle in a neighborhood? How could he not know that it could kill? I have horrible memories of looking out our kitchen window as a child and seeing our next-door neighbor kill a stray dog with a pellet gun. He hit him in the spine and the dog’s contortions were horrible. There is no leash law in our county and it is not unusual for a neighbor’s dog to wander through the yard. I can’t imagine shooting one just because he was there.

That said, if the shooter has paid for the dog’s cost, the medical expenses - I don’t see the point of going further with it. They can’t get their dog back, if that’s what it’s about. If I lived next door to this man I would be fearful for my dog (who never goes out except on a leash).

Sorry KarenR, I totally disagree with you.  There are people who are afraid of animals for all kinds of reasons.  My not so liking cats goes back to one who stalked me as a child and would jump out from behind furniture and scare all the cat loving out of me, I am quite sure.  Thankfully, it did not cause me to be terrified of cats (why I don’t know) but there is no accounting for how people perceive things.  Private property is just that - private property.  While I would not have taken such measures, I cannot sanction penalizing this man for these people’s irresponsibility in failing to contain their dog.

No one should use a weapon of any kind without knowing how to use it and what it does.  Not all dogs are friendly, especially to strangers. Since the Scheeles were visiting and not living next door, a reasonable assumption is the man had an unknown dog on his property.  He was punished by the law, and paid quite a bit for it.  What about his property being violated?  Was there ever an apology for that?  Yet his defending his property makes him a dangerous and evil criminal who should be locked away for “years”?  There are better uses for our prisons, especially if the Scheeles had maintained proper control of their dog, albeit a very beloved one. 

We don’t know the circumstances of what pushed this man to react the way he did, but suffice to say that if the Scheeles had kept the dog under their direct control, there would have been no problem.  The ultimate responsibility was theirs.  Where we live

Direct control shall mean immediate and continuous physical control of an animal at all times such as by means of a fence, leash, cord or chain of sufficient strength to restrain the same; or in the case of specifically trained or hunting animals which immediately respond to such commands, direct control shall also include aural or oral control, if the controlling person is at all times clearly and fully within the unobstructed sight and hearing of the animal.

The Scheeles need to own up to their personal responsibility.  At this point, I wouldn’t blame the neighbor if he filed a countersuit for harrassment and loss of liberty to enjoy his own property without their dog trespassing on his property.  Just another side of the coin everyone should think about before letting their animals to run free.

I think the guy got what he deserved. I would have given him worse had I been the judge. Shooting a dog, a neighbor’s dog no less, for straying into your yard is unconscionable.

KarenR,
He is 76 years old.  We don’t know the rest of this man’s story.  Let’s reserve judgement and rather offer grace and forgivness, especially at this time of year.

If someone shot a human just for being in one’s yard, it would not be a misdemeanor. While I do not equate pets with humans in ultimate value, to me and to many others, they ARE as important. A pet can be a beloved family member. Property rights DO NOT EVER justify shooting someone, human or pet, unless one is definitely and directly threatened. (Please note that I am not being a good Mennonite to say people have a right to shoot a person even in self defense.)

I am glad that this man at least was convicted of a crime and got probation and a fine.

Our prisons are full of people there for totally stupid reasons like using drugs, and yet killing someone’s beloved family member is just a misdemeanor. If people knew they could do jail time, they’d be much less likely to shoot pets.

Matt - It doesn’t happen often but on this one - we are polar opposites.  It was not a neighbor’s dog.  It was a strange dog visiting a neighbor.  If I were the 76 year old man, I would file suit against my neighbor for failing to control a guest and causing me undue hardship and irreversible harm.  After all one stupid lawsuit deserves another.

Let’s all cool off & watch the nice lady sing the Dog Song: http://www.ted.com/talks/nellie_mckay_sings_the_dog_song.html

KarenR,  My mom used to ride her bike in our neighborhood. While under the above-quoted regulations, people let their dogs and cats run free.  Mom is handicapped and can’t defend herself like you or I can.  She has been attacked multiple times by both biting and just wanting attention dogs.  Both are a hazard to her.  Twice she has been pinned down by dogs with her bike between her and the dogs for over 30 minutes until someone came out and helped her.  While she would not shoot a dog, she has the right to defend herself.

Secondly, because of the lack of respect for others, we have dog poop all over our yard (good two acres), including the sidewalks!  One morning, less than 10 minutes after I opened our gate, a dog delivered its present behind the gate onto the sidewalk toward the back of our house so that my dad stepped in it and ruined an expensive pair of shoes.

Don’t we have to right to expect to enjoy our property without ill-will from some of our neighbors?  Yet their lack of responsibility costs us.  So, I can understand the man’s frustration though not his execution - no pun intended.  He has be adequately punished for the crime, especially when some murders of humans serve less than 7 years.

If the dog’s owners had done the right thing in the first place and shown respect for others, there would not be an issue in the first place.  If the man had respect for the dog and used other means, there wouldn’t have been a compounding problem.  It boils down to lack of respect for others - sin, if you will.

There are people in our neighborhood who walk.  A majority walk with sticks.  Can you guess why?  The police?  They tell anyone to walk at a different time…no matter what time the problem happens.  Should they be punished, too?

I understand your point, Lakeland Two, and that of the others. Dog owners should be responsible. I am disabled, I walk with a cane, and it doesn’t take much to knock me over. I once reported a neighbor’s large dog to animal services after it ran out and attacked me for no reason at all as I was walking by, biting my wrist and knocking me over. I understand being afraid of certain dogs.

I like to think I could forgive someone if they ever killed someone I loved, human or animal. But if a human friend or family member was deliberately killed by someone, I know that person would likely go to prison for years, which is just, so that people do not lightly kill others and know that if they do, they risk losing their freedom. People need to be severely punished for deliberately killing someone’s pet, even if that animal is a strange animal trespassing in their yard, so that they will not do such a thing lightly.

I know I’ve clashed before with you folks when it comes to guns, which I hate, and I wasn’t going to fight about guns anymore. But this is a separate issue than the right to have guns. My animals are my family. If I were a gun person, I could imagine shooting someone if I felt they were threatening my dog or cat. But I should only do that if my animals were definitely in immediate danger.

I am curious about something.

I have mixed beliefs about the above story and do think it’s a complex issue. 

For those who come down on the private property rights for the citizen—are you then okay with folks shooting cats who venture onto their property?  Obviously such cats are not “under the direct control of the owner.

I assume so—just checking in on that.  Obviously they are not respecters of private property any more than dogs—actually less so in my experience.

Even if one considers that the owner has the responsibility to ensure that the dog is kept under control, which is not a given in areas without leash law, I would consider shooting a non-aggressive dog with a pellet gun to be disproportionate use of force, especially if the intent is simply to scare the dog.  One can do many things to scare a dog off your property without firing an air pellet at it.  Furthermore, anyone that thinks that an air pellet gun is a non-lethal weapon suitable for shooting creatures with the intent of “scaring” them is a menace.  A weapon that can penetrate a dog’s chest can also kill a person.  What if this had been a rowdy kid instead of a dog?

If this had been a human of any age, there would be no contest.  As much as I love animals, they are not human and conferring human rights upon them causes more problems than even the most ardent animal lover can resolve.  Cass Sunstein anyone?  Lawyers for animals?  I don’t know the circumstances behind why the home owner felt threatened enough to attempt to scare the animal off, but I do believe the punishment rendered by the court was fair and just. 
Sarah - Cats should not be allowed to run loose either.  Leash laws do not discriminate as to what type of pet - just that they must be leashed when in public.  Hamster, pet rat - whatever - public = leash.
Think through the problems with allowing an animal to be put in the place of a human.  Think back to GC09 - pet liturgies and flirting with animal baptism.

Jackie, I think you miss my point about someone recklessly using a weapon when they clearly do not understand the potential lethality of the weapon.

I’m not trying to treat dogs as people.  But if someone took a pot shot at your car with a pellet gun because you turned into their driveway by mistake, and busted the window, they still should be liable for property damage.

Leash laws for cats are absurd. I live in a place that does not allow cats to run free and my cat and I break those laws every day committing extremely justifiable civil disobedience.

My dog refuses to walk on a leash because when I got her as a puppy, I could barely walk, and so she never learned to wear a collar or leash. I open the door, let her out, and know she’ll stay in my yard or that of my next door neighbor who allows her to be there. I have taken her on trips to visit other people and I watch her in the yard of my friend and clean up after her and she occasionally wonders into a neighboring yard and I call her back. To think someone might shoot her because she was a strange dog and it would be my fault for not having her on a leash is ridiculous.

I don’t agree with Cass Sunstein about giving animals human rights legally, or baptizing them, but if a companion animal is loved as a member of a family, then that animal is of equal value to a human and killing them when they are not a threat is morally equal to murder.

Not all localities apply leash laws to cats.  Most are very clear that they only apply to dogs.

[17] Posted by KarenR

if a companion animal is loved as a member of a family, then that animal is of equal value to a human and killing them when they are not a threat is morally equal to murder.

This is logical and spiritual nonsense.  An animal is not a human being.  Animals were not created in the image of God.  Animals do not have immortal souls.  Christ did not die that animals might be spared the judgment of Hell.  There is therefore never an instance when the life of an animal is of equal value to the life of a human being.  This idea proceeds from the anthropomorphizing of animals.  But this does not raise animals to the level of humans.  It lowers humans to the level of animals.  No matter how attached we are to an animal, it is not and never can be a human being.  It does not love the way a human loves.  It cannot do so.  Pretending that it can do so is only a path to the de-humanization of man.

carl

AndrewA - I did not miss your point but think you missed mine.  No one should discharge a weapon of any kind without knowing its potential to harm.  The man in question pled guilty and has already paid a goodly sum.  The issue before the court is whether the irresponsible owners should be allowed to collect monetary damages as if the dog were human. 
KarenR - I have no doubt you are a wonderful and loving person.  As one who has been on the receiving end of stray pets in my yard, I stick to my contention - leash laws are there for a reason.  I leash mine or keep them contained in my house or yard. I expect my neighbors to do the same.  While I may consider my pet the cat’s meow (pun intended), my neighbors may not share the opinion.  How would you react if your loving pet suddenly and totally out of character bit a passing child?  Pets can be unpredictable.  My husband’s very gentle horse suddenly reared, threw him from the saddle and then kicked him in the face because a train blew its whistle.

I disagree with leashing cats.  They aren’t dogs and have a different relationship with human beings than do dogs.  A leashed dog is just staying with and obeying his pack leader; it isn’t a deformation of his nature.  Cats have no natural traits which can be used to make them happy on a leash. 

When I was growing up,  it was assumed that cats would go outside.  “Putting the cat out” for the night was pretty standard.  Only people who lived in city apartments kept their cats inside all the time.  Now lots of people try to say that that is the only right way to have a cat.  True, there are dangers for cats who go outside,  but I wouldn’t want to avoid danger by staying inside my whole life!  Cats don’t do much harm.  They bury their feces, and this might be a problem in a place with very small yards and a newly seeded garden.  But I have always had gardens and cats and never had a significant problem.
Cats control mice and rats and can even prevent rabbit overpopulation. ( Now if only they could kill woodchucks! )  They kill a few birds, but I have never seen why this is a problem.  We ought not to romanticize birds either,  and probably cats only catch the weakest, slowest ones. 

Most leash laws only apply to dogs, not to cats.  At least, no place I have ever lived has tried to apply them to cats.  For which I am thankful! 

The man was wrong to shoot the dog.  Sometimes dogs will push their way out a door and run before you can stop them.  The only justification for shooting a dog would be if it were attacking a child or other vulnerable person and there were no other way to stop it.  And then no one should try it who isn’t a very good shot! 

But you can’t make laws which make animals the equivalent of people. That way lies madness.  They aren’t people, they are property,  and civil damages are what is appropriate.  Being attached to them is understandable, even being very attached.  But that gives them value to the person who is attached to them, not an intrinsic value and status.  A human being (even an unborn one) has an intrinsic value and status whether anyone (other than God) is attached to him or not.  Animals really are not on that level.

Susan Peterson

The issue before the court is whether the irresponsible owners should be allowed to collect monetary damages as if the dog were human.

Actually, I’m not too keen on the idea that parents can sue a person for “emotional distress” or “loss of companionship” if their kids are killed!  Children are people, not “companions” and one should not assign monetary value to people.  I can kind of see “wrongful death” suites, but I still tend to think that lost human life should result in criminal charges, not civil suits.

I’ll weigh in being a dog owner and living in the State.
The town this happened in is large for the population. It’s really fairly small and spread out. I’don’t know if this happened in the village, but (the lawyers will have to help) Vermont being a commonwealth and having fairly low land (property) privacy laws and expectations, and that usually unless fenced or posted, your land is open. Of course trespassing is always there, but it’s a stretch here. Scaring a dog off can be done in lot’s of other ways without firing at it. Vermont too has liberal firearm laws. For instance you have a right to carry here without permit or interference, and hunting is a big thing. It also might be time for society to address the meaning of companion animals. Much of society holds them in a higher place. Additionally, not every town here has leash laws. The bigger ones do but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was no a leash law where this happened. Also here there are lots of dog owners and lots of dogs ‘off leash.” It sort of goes with this rural state and individual freedom, independence, and self-reliance here. We were an independent ‘country’ after the revolution and after we chased the “yorkers” off and before we became the 14th. State. AND there is probably more to the story. The local press reported that the man who shot the dog was very upset and very contrite and said he made a mistake.

My argument that companion animals are equivalent to humans is an emotional one, I will admit, that lacks philosophical and theological substance.

This is off topic to this topic, but my view about companion animals having equal value to me as people do, or truthfully, MORE, is related to how I viewed the Terry Shiavo case. I oppose euthansia in general, but what really got to me about that case was that I saw the key issue as the fact that it really, really mattered to her parents that she remain alive. Even if her husband had been telling the whole truth, which is very doubtful, and even if he was her legal guardian, if it really, really mattered to her parents to keep her alive, then she should have been kept alive. Even if she was unable to respond, she had value to them. And so the way it went broke my heart.

If I love an animal as much as someone does their child or their spouse or their parent or their friend, then that animal has as much value as a human being. If one person feels this way about an animal, it makes it the equivalent of a human being. A deer in the woods or a pig on a farm is not loved by any human, so killing it is not the same as killing a beloved companion animal.

I do not believe that animals have souls or are created in the image of God as humans are. I do not believe that we evolved from apes. But we are stewards of animals and sometimes they become our family.

Since my argument is emotional, it is hard to say that it can be applied legally. So perhaps I will recant on my earlier position about the case this thread started with. He was an old man and he was punished, so I will accept that. There are cases where people who kill animals do jail time and sometimes it is warranted.

Some of you people need to take it easy on cats.

They hardly ever do anything wrong.

link

Hardly ever.

It’s Advent, go to confession and take the dog.

He wants to go! 

My situation is different from many - I live inside city limits, but we have 4+ acres and I raise sheep and alpacas.  If a stray dog gets in my pasture, I will try to run it off.  If I can’t, or if it’s obviously harassing my animals, it’s dead.  “Threatening humans or livestock” is sufficient reason to discharge a firearm to kill a dog around here.  And I will.  The dog’s lifespan will depend on my ability to discern its personality and agenda.

I also have a barn cat, whose job is killing vermin.  It’s a dangerous job, but she is as much employee as pet.  So far she’s escaped the coyotes and stayed on our property and done her job admirably.  But I understand full well that she may not come home one day.  I will be very sad—despite my best efforts, I’ve gotten attached to her—but that is the way things are.

In the country, we deal with stray, livestock-threatening animals with the Three S’s:  shoot, shovel, and shut up. (The only exception is with raptors - owls and hawks - which are protected by federal law.)  Probably the rules are different in suburbia.  Which is why I don’t live there anymore.

If you love your child, you don’t let it wander into strange old men’s yards.  Same for the dog. 

There is a major difference in that the child is a person and presumed to be ‘not a threat’.  A dog wandering the neighbourhood is not a person, and can easily be presumed a threat.

Its nuts that the city found him guilty of anything.

Is there no leash law in Northfield?  Even if there is none on the books, the responsibility for care lies with the owner.

Those city folks from Maryland out to be paying the old guy for his pain and suffering both before and after the shooting.

KarenR - Thanks for sharing.  I fully understand how you feel about your pets/family members.  We felt the same way about ours.  My four-legged nephew was much smarter than the two-legged ones and we were devastated when he passed away several years ago.  But he still is a dog. 

I would bet your neighbor that you called animal control on resented it - as has the ones my mom reported.  My mom quit riding and her health has deteriorated tremendously since.  The free will of others affecting us in many ways.

I feel strongly that if you have a pet (or even a child) that it is your responsibility to provide a safe environment for it.  Part of that responsibility is weighing its impact on your surroundings.  It is the owner’s duty and respect of the pet to take care of its needs.  Making sure the pet isn’t an imposition on your neighbors is also respecting the pet - they know when they are resented.  So, I disagree with the “putting the cat out” or “it’s their nature” defenses/excuses.  Your animal, keep it on your property or don’t have one.  I do have a friend who walks his cat on a leash. 

My best friend has two cats who use a litter box.  If you want a cat to be free outside, go live WAY out in the country.  We live on my parents’ property which is under 5 acres and yet I have to shoo cats off the porch deep in the property as well.  Living where we do, we have wild bunnies and some other wild life on our property.  The cats have left corpses for us to deal with.  No one should have to deal with other peoples’ pets.  Don’t get me wrong.  I love the next door neighbor’s dog who visits me when I put the trash out (too big of a dog to leave the poop we’ve stumbled upon - such a lady!).  The first time I met her was when she slipped in our back yard and put her cold, wet nose up my house dress while I was unaware of her - well, you get the picture.  She scared me, not knowing if it was a squirrel, cat or snake. And I’ve held her when cars have gone by.  Should she be at home - yes.

KarenR, I’m not saying most of this to just you, but rather to all on this thread.  It all goes back to respect, love your neighbor as yourself.  Respect your pet, respect your neighbor.  If you can’t do both,  maybe you need to rethink having a pet.  It’s not all about you. 

As far as the pellet gun, I understand the guy using it, though I restate that you need to know how to use any weapon and know its effects.  I’ve heard of sling-shots or paint ball guns being used, as well as pepper spray, ammonia sprays, etc.

We learned many years ago that people kidnap animals off the street for use in experiments.  Would any of you want that to happen to your pet?  I wouldn’t.

Blessings to all, especially the wee ones.

[25] episcopalienated

[Cats] hardly ever do anything wrong

Well, except for the fact that cats aren’t dogs.  The noble canine after all obeys the Canine Law.  A dog is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.  And cats ... well ... are not.  As your link well indicates.  The treachery of the feline is clearly on display. 

Where have you been anyways?  Seems like you haven’t posted in a while.

carl

KarenR,
I hope cats stay off my land.
 
Cats are mean and vicious critters.  Though they rarely actually manage to catch the birds or squirrels, they enjoy frightening them, and they are deadly to the moles. 

One shout of ‘scat’ and if they remain on my land, they’re lawfully subject to the use of (non-lethal) force to evict them.
If they scratch my child, they’re lawfully subject to the use of deadly force. 

If they use my yard for a litter box, you are subject to some heavy duty animal control and health department fines.

If you loved them, you’d keep them with you, if you loved your neighbours, you’d not subject them to invasion of the beasts.

There is really no reason that pet cats need to be wandering around loose outside. Indoors, they are safe from cars, predators larger than themselves, and the several sorts of people who are a danger to them. Indoors, they are not killing songbirds, digging up your neighbors’ flowerbeds or fouling other peoples’ yards with feces. It’s true, most cats are not leash trained. That’s what cat carriers are for. If you love your cat, keep it safe—keep it inside.

episcopalienated, while I’m a big fan of the Lolcat genre, I’m afraid that if we start posting those here, there will be no end to the flood, and the kittehs will take over.

Cats are mean and vicious critters… they are deadly to the moles.

I consider that to be high praise.  Moles are vermin.  I used to sell mole traps. 

While feral cats and outdoors domesticated cats have their disadvantages, in my opinion, they play an important role in replacing the natural predators that used to keep the rabbits, birds and rodents in check before humans drove most of them out of suburbia. 

If they scratch my child, they’re lawfully subject to the use of deadly force.

Sure.  Any animal that attacks any person is lawfully subject to the use of deadly force.  But using deadly force against a non-threatening dog or cat is excessive.  If visual or audible means of scaring it away don’t work, try turning the hose on it.  If it is still a problem, call animal control.

episcopalienated, my dear friend, you will never know how much I needed that this morning.

Indoors, they are safe from cars, predators larger than themselves, and the several sorts of people who are a danger to them.

I will grant that.  A cayote got one of my family’s cats, which is a bit upseting, but that’s nature.  Someone kicked my second cat to death, which is far more upseting, because there is simply no need for it.

Indoors, they are not killing songbirds, digging up your neighbors’ flowerbeds or fouling other peoples’ yards with feces.

That’s called life.  You think there aren’t plenty of deer, raccoons, opossums, rabbits, geese and squirrels out there doing the same thing?  Have we gotten so artificial that we aren’t willing to live with the possibility that things outdoors are subject to the whims of nature? Besides, someone needs to keep the bird population under control.

The most intriguing idea to me here is that the value of an animal is directly proportional to the affection held for it by some human.  So if the animal is not loved, it is valued less.  It is the same kind of dangerous thinking that leads us to value pre-borns only when they are loved / desired by the woman gestating them.

All this being said, I am a great animal lover.  I saved a three-week-old feral kitten once, feeding her from a toy baby bottle, washing her daily, and letting her sleep on my chest until she was big enough to sleep on her own.  She responded only to me and would disappear when others tried to touch her, but she let me hold her like a baby.  I was tormented when I had no choice but to leave her at the animal control center when I deployed.  They notified me within a week that they’d had to put her down as she would not eat, go to the bathroom, nor let anyone touch her.  I cried for weeks.  Out of guilt, I’ve not had another pet since.

But I did not abandon my baby to that fate.  It’s just not the same.

RE: “Have we gotten so artificial that we aren’t willing to live with the possibility that things outdoors are subject to the whims of nature?”

Yes, we have.

In the old days, people allowed their dogs to roam free on everybody’s land.  Now, we’re all citified.

I follow leash laws—which incidentally only apply to dogs around here.  My dog has at least half a dozen times at my house, slipped his leash and joyfully leapt into the air before turning mid air to wink at me and hop hop hop away while I bellowed for him.  He has a beautiful recall in the woods—many people nodding approvingly at his well-trained run back to me—but when he slips that leash in my neighborhood he delights in the marvelous game that will occur.  He play and sniffs in the neighbor’s yard and visits other dogs while I sidle up to him.  Just when I am near enough to spring he leaps into the air again and hops [yes, he hops straight up into the air] and bounds away.  He has the most amusing sly sideways glance—his eyes already turn up at the corners [husky eyes].

Obviously, I suppose a neighbor could shoot Brand for entering his yard.  So far that has not occurred yet.

But on a related note, in one fell stroke above some commenters have eliminated all care for stray cats.

I’ve rescued many a cat in my day.  Their are certain types of cats.  One type will stay indoors and be housebound.  Another *will* roam and *must* be outdoors and will make your life a living hell if they are not allowed out.

What those of you who have decided that all cats *must* stay indoors or be on “leashes” [heh] have done is eliminated many cats from homes and sent them to animal control.

I expect that that is where they belong in some of your eyes.

But I am happy—I take delight in—the well-fed cats who roam through my yard from neighborhood houses who have cared for them and brought them to a half-civilized state, not to mention neutering and spaying them.  And truth to tell, as long as a dog is cared for and not aggressive I don’t mind their roaming through my yard either, although I personally do believe that it is dangerous to let a dog out in these times and would not do so with Brand.

It does sound as if the man is sorry for shooting the dog dead in his yard.  I wish he hadn’t done it.  I don’t agree with treating the dog as if he were a human being in value and it sounds like the penalty of the law was given to the man.

But I would probably also never trust the man with any of my valued ones, including children, the aged, or any other creatures.  I judge most people by how they treat animals, even if the animals are inconvenient.  This man—from the safety of his home apparently—shot a dog dead in his yard.  I find that disgusting and again, would not trust him with anything that I valued.

In response to Fidela #36, I do have concern with the idea that something has value only if we value it, and how this kind of thinking leads to the death culture of abortion. I said that to avoid saying what I really believe, which is that companion animals have equal value to humans. There, I’ve said it.

KarenR—do you believe then that animals are “made in the image of God” as Scripture declares about human beings?

Without digging too deep into this, I just have to wonder: what sort of person kills a non-threatening strange dog on sight?.

I think that people who been loved by a dog as a child have a different attitude to dogs that those who have not been so fortunate.

[41] sandraoh

loved by a dog

This is the classic anthropomorphization.  We project onto an animal the kind of relationships that human beings have with each other.  Dogs do not love.  They are incapable of loving in the sense that humans love.  They exist in the pack, and act in accordance with the pack.  Humans love dogs.  Dogs look at us like the leaders of the pack.  There is a huge difference.  What we should never forget is that loving a man is quatitatively and qualitatively different from loving a dog.  There should be no man who would not willingly sacrifice the life of a beloved animal to save the life of a man - even if the man was a complete stranger.

carl

#41 Carl “Dogs do not love,”
Oh really…,not much I can say to that, not wanting a stern lecture.

Sarah,

I do not believe that dogs are created in the image of God, but from my own subjective, emotional viewpoint, I believe that they have equal value to humans.

Carl,

On most issues I appreciate your accurate critique of a humanist worldview and all of the error that it leads to, and I can see why you see my view of companion animals as something like that. I assure you that I am very theologically orthodox. I do not argue my point of view from a theological perspective.

As far as dogs not loving, I believe that the scientists are divided on this. I don’t care what they think. I know that my dog AND my cat love me. But even if they don’t, and I am deluded, I love them, and that is what matters.

OK, so I’ll be the one to say it:  yes, the cats should be kept inside if the neighbors don’t want them in their yard.  Basic respect.  Or move to where they can.  Why should that send them to animal control?  I truly don’t get that, other than having to spend time retraining said cat…or dog.  Why should one person have the freedom to let their animal run wild as they choose at the cost of their neighbor who experiences negative behavior of the pet?  I truly don’t get that either.  We tolerate the roaming cats and dogs, and will unless it becomes a bigger problem.  We’ve had feral cats, too - because owners didn’t spay/neuter. 

I searched the blessed internet and found that the oldest known domesticated cat was in Cyprus about 9,500 years ago -  possibly 12,000 years ago - although the Egyptians showed them in art about 4,000 years ago. They were not indiginous to Cyprus, nor are they indiginous to the US.  One website says the first came over with the Mayflower.  So, again, the “their nature/natural habitat” just doesn’t fly.

Should my best friend kick the bucket before me, we will become the custodial caregiver for het pets AKA her children, the cats included.  I will love them and provide the best home for them for the rest of their natural lives that we can and they will not inflict themselves on the neighbors.  That goes for any dogs as well.  We personally don’t have dogs or cats because we feel we could not provide an environment that is in a pet’s best interest at this point of our life due to our situation.  And we would love to have the love of a dog.

Yep, said that too.  I saw my brother’s dog exhibit behaviors that some would say are not possible.  Seen them in cows, too.  I think we don’t give them enough credit or training…or respect.  But I do not agree with this court case, especially pets over grandparent rights.  I also don’t remember reading that the dog in question was considered totally non-threatening by the 76 year old man, though he was trying to scare the dog out of his yard.

Another question is why didn’t the Scheeles’ relatives warn the Scheeles about the neighbor next door?  Since he shot at the dog, he either had done it before with something else, or he had made it clear to the neighbors he was tired of animals coming in the yard. IMO.

A point of consideration, though, is that here in Lakeland, FL, following the death of Deputy Matt Williams and his K-9 partner Diogi, there was talk of making it law that the penalty for killing a police dog would be the same as a human police officer.

Now off to read the Covenant junk. 

RE: “Why should that send them to animal control?”

Some cats—as I said above in my comment—are too old and crazy to be in the house long term without roaming.  They yowl and scratch at the door and run wildly through the house and hammer at the windows and swing from the chandeliers.  They simply *must* roam.

So again . . . those cats are “un-houseable” other than their food and nap in the sun, until they go out to roam and prowl.  I’ve had homebody cats.  I’ve had the other sort too.

The other option is simply to announce that the strays that you rescue, feed, spay/neuter, whatever, are not “officially yours.”  And let your neighbors go to the trouble—if they are offended by the yard prowling—of taking them to the animal shelter.

The idea of having an “animal-free yard” is simply bizarre to me—absolutely bizarre to me.  An incredible demand.

But at any rate, if any neighbor were to demand that my cat stay out of his or her yard, they would be written off my “neighborliness list” and that would be that.  I’d do my best to keep the cat out of their yard . . . but would understand—and they would understand—that no further neighbor exchanges would occur as in watching their house while they are gone, calling police on strangers, dealing with *their* animals, giving them firewood, helping move their fallen-down tree, etc, etc, etc, etc.

They will have forfeited that by their own buffoonery.

Thankfully that has not happened.

I suspect that rather than a lawsuit, that’s what this family should have done with the shot dog—simply grieve the killing, acknowledge that this man behaved outrageously, and move on without that neighbor in their lives any longer.  Social scorning is really the best way to behave to someone who has transgressed in that way, rather than lawsuits in my opinion.  We’ve lost the idea of social rejection and substituted for it legal attempts to accomplish the same thing.

One of my theses is that as societal structures and order decline, we add more laws and lawsuits.

On another note, it’s good to see that Carl’s enlightenment rationalist scientism is perfectly attuned to Carl Sagan’s, and Margaret Sanger’s, and other such heroes of the anti-metaphysical.

[46] Sarah

it’s good to see that Carl’s enlightenment rationalist scientism is perfectly attuned to Carl Sagan’s, and Margaret Sanger’s, and other such heroes of the anti-metaphysical.

Ummm ... what?  I honestly have no idea what you are referring to.

carl

re: #37 & 46
sorry, but I think the supposed reasons that a cat has to go outside are nothing but excuses. You wouldn’t let a small child play in a dangerous area no matter how big a tantrum s/he threw, would you? I do not equate a child and a cat, except in that neither of them is competent to decide what is safe and what isn’t. It is the responsibility of the adult or human who has charge of them to make that decision for them.

You say that you wouldn’t trust Mr. Dustin with anything that you valued. Letting a cat or other animal wander at will is trusting the Mr. Dustins of this world—not to mention the other dangers out there which are even less to be trusted than he—not to harm it. IMO, “social scorning” is an utterly inadequate response. It won’t bring Shadow back, it quite possibly won’t stop Mr Dustin from shooting another animal that comes into his yard, and it certainly won’t deter coyotes or viruses.

RE: “sorry, but I think the supposed reasons that a cat has to go outside are nothing but excuses.”

Well . . .suit yourself.  I won’t argue with you about your opinion.  ; > )

RE: “You wouldn’t let a small child play in a dangerous area no matter how big a tantrum s/he threw, would you?”

Nor would I put a collar on a small child and make him eat pellets out of a food bowl.

RE: “I do not equate a child and a cat, except in that neither of them is competent to decide what is safe and what isn’t.”

I’m afraid that I think most cats far far more competent than children—they’ve survived in the outdoors for many many many centuries now.

RE: “It is the responsibility of the adult or human who has charge of them to make that decision for them.”

No more my responsibility than it is mine to “make that decision” for wolves or bears.

RE: “Letting a cat or other animal wander at will is trusting the Mr. Dustins of this world. . . “

Not at all.  In fact, letting myself wander at will doesn’t mean trusting the Mr. Dustins of the world either.  It’s simply an acknowledgement of the reality of a fallen dangerous world and an acceptance of it and moving on in freedom.

RE: “IMO, “social scorning” is an utterly inadequate response.”

Hmmm.  Okay. 

So you prefer lawsuits?

I don’t.  I think the man was punished—rightly—under the law.  And there is no law against the man’s “defending” [sic] his private property. 

RE: “It won’t bring Shadow back . . .”

Agreed—not much, it seems, will.

RE: “it quite possibly won’t stop Mr Dustin from shooting another animal that comes into his yard . . . “

Agreed—he’s a danger.  But I thought we’d already established that.

The question is, what does one do with a dangerous and pernicious neighbor.  As I mentioned above, were I to have a wretched neighbor such as that, I’d make an effort to keep my cat out of his yard, while of course, making it very clear to him what he’d lost in the particular transaction that he has desired—which is all displays of neighborliness from me.  I can be a pretty good neighbor.

RE: ” . . . and it certainly won’t deter coyotes or viruses.”

Er . . . also agreed.

I grew up in the country.  I remember when a neighbor built a house about 10 acres away from us but we could see it if we went to the back of the yard and peered through the trees.  My dad said - “that’s it, the city is getting too close.”  This country upbringing is where I got my notion of animals, I am sure. We were taught that animals all had a purpose in this life and regardless of the purpose they were to be treated well while they were with us.  That lesson was brought home when I made a pet of Sam the pig.  It was not long before Sam graced our dining room table.  After that, animals that were good eats never made their way too far into my heart.  We learned that animals did not get dual citizenship.  If raised as an outside animal, that is where it stayed.  Cats that roamed beyond our borders, were not long for this world.  Any of the “pets” that terrorized the good eats animals were soon sent to the gallows.  So this is where I get my philosophy on animals.  If you live in the country and your neighbors don’t have a problem with straying pets, then you are blessed.  I personally don’t live in the country but in the burbs.  I’ve had two neighbors that allowed their cats to roam into my yard and use my flowerboxes as litter boxes.  I am certainly glad that my bringing the fact that this was an invasion of my privacy to their attention, did not relegate me to the status of ignored neighbor.  We were actually quite good friends.  But animals are animals and humans are humans.  IMHO, God gave them to us for our use and comfort but never ever to be abused.  When that happens through a mis-step of judgement, why would we not seek to forgive those who show remorse?

RE: “This country upbringing is where I got my notion of animals, I am sure.”

It’s odd—two of my brothers have lived in the country for most of their adult lives—all the animals stray, including their many many many cats *and* dogs.  And my grandmother lived in the country all of her life—and her many cats strayed too.

RE: “If raised as an outside animal, that is where it stayed.”

Um, like cats?

RE: “Cats that roamed beyond our borders, were not long for this world.”

Maybe—thankfully mine and my neighbors cats have been “long for this world.”  And my grandmothers’ were *incredibly long-lived.*  And Bluegrass has thrived in Virginia and Black Mountain.  And now there is a second thriving cat.  And then I can’t count the dozens that my other brother owns out in the country.

RE: “I personally don’t live in the country but in the burbs.

Me too.

RE: “I’ve had two neighbors that allowed their cats to roam into my yard and use my flowerboxes as litter boxes.  I am certainly glad that my bringing the fact that this was an invasion of my privacy to their attention, did not relegate me to the status of ignored neighbor.”

Did they ask you what they should do about it?

I assume that they now keep their cats indoors.

Sad.

Thankfully neither of us are neighbors.  For we would not know one another as we do now.  ; > )

My wife and I have cats….eleven of them….and they owned us.

Did they ask you what they should do about it?
Yes, like friends we discussed it.  One kept their cat inside, the other cleaned and maintained my flower box until a dog ate their cat.
Sad.  I’m sure the cat felt that way just prior to being eaten by the dog when she entered his yard.
Thankfully neither of us are neighbors.  For we would not know one another as we do now.    That’s the part I consider sad.

I’m a bit surprised at your list of responses to someone who asked you to keep control of your pet, Sarah.  Given the solid Christian woman you are, I would have expected more of a “do unto others” attitude. 

I hate when I believe others have wronged me.  Sometimes, I even have the law on my side.  But the response required of me is that of a Christian - going the extra mile, sharing half my cloak, witnessing the grace, forgiveness and love of Christ.  I shudder to think what my witness to others would be if I responded as you suggested (an I understand that you are not advocating anyone else respond that way).

RE: “I’m a bit surprised at your list of responses to someone who asked you to keep control of your pet, Sarah.”

Well there are very few responses one can provide to someone who demands that they have an animal-free yard.

One wonders what they do with the squirrels and birdies.

But seriously . . . I’ve never ever lived near a person who demanded that cats not enter their yard.  I would have been dumbfounded had anyone done so.  I’ve lived only in neighborhoods with copious amounts of cats—and that’s been all my life.  I live currently in one—and those cats wander into my yard and mine into theirs.  All of my SC friends are flashing through my head right now—with cats—roaming around.  One of my friends literally has a neighborhood that feeds all the cats, no matter who owns them.

RE: “Given the solid Christian woman you are, I would have expected more of a “do unto others” attitude.”

Once someone has proven themselves in that manner as a neighbor I’ve pretty much moved on.  Hard, really, to discern what one could do.

I would either keep my cat in my house—or my neighbor would I suppose shoot my cat in outrage that he entered my neighbor’s yard.  Or simply seethe at the incursions.

Were a neighbor to ask me to clean their flower thingy of course I’d be happy to do so—while wondering what that neighbor does with the squirrel poop and the bird poop and the raccoon poop and the opossum poop.

But regardless it would not be a successful neighborly relationship.

I don’t think acknowledging that reality—and my determination to move on from such neighbors [if not physically than mentally] and recognizing that we were not, in fact, actual “neighbors” even if living in close proximity—is an “unChristian” one. It simply is what it is.

As with all relationships, people generally receive the intimacy that they actually seek.  So when one is a poor boss, or poor employee, or poorly behaved child or whatever, they are generally treated as such—that is the law of consequences and reactions and relationships.  It is the way God made the *fallen* world—with actions and reactions.  One can certainly forgive a criminal for instance—but still, the criminal reaps the consequences of his behavior.

Shooting my dog if it entered their yard would be “un-neighborly” in the extreme.  I don’t *think* I would sue that person [one never knows if one is in that emotion of “in extremis”].  But regardless, I’d simply have to acknowledge them as deeply unsafe and someone to be shunned and avoided with all determination. 

Maybe it’s just that we all have different definitions of “neighbors” on this thread, I don’t know.  We certainly have different ideas of what animals are meant to do and how they are to be kept.

At any rate, it’s all a moot point so far.  Right now I’m on an island with neighbors all around me with cats.  Some of them with numerous cats.  They wander all round.  I have one cat.  He wanders.  I have one dog who very wickedly has slipped his head out of his collar and frisked away on several occasions.

So far, nobody has been shot.

But I’ll certainly have more of a care now, looking at this story and thread.

The one thing I really have to vigorously object to though is your description of me as a “solid Christian woman.”  ; > )

I guess the real difference is that squirrels, rabbits and the like are indiginous and all of us know that.  Pets, on the other hand and no matter how much as we love them, are free will choices we make in our own lives.  Some people choose to inflict their free will on others without regard to the outcome.

Bird poop, etc., isn’t the same as having someone else’s pet use your yard instead of their own as their toilet, nor is the size an issue compared to the size of the animals.  Or having to clean up the corpse of a animal you enjoy because it was destroyed by a neighbor’s loose pet. The pet is there because someone chose for it to be there. There is a big difference.  It goes back to respect and love for others and the pet itself.  A symptom that reveals other issues.  It reveals more about the person than they realize, just as how we handle those irritations do about ourselves.

RE: “The pet is there because someone chose for it to be there.”

Not the rescued strays.

Which gets me back to what would need, I suppose, to happen.

“Oh no, that’s not my pet.  That’s a neighborhood stray whom I feed and vet.  Feel free to take them on to the animal shelter.”

In other words, we don’t shoot the strays while we understand someone else might feel harrassed to the point of desperation - especially when the neighbor is uncaring.  While animal control’s number is handy, haven’t used it except a couple of years ago for the stray alligator in the road - more for it’s protection than mine. But should a pet show any signs of aggression that call will be made.

Animal control here told a neighbor - feed it three times, it’s yours.

Sarah, if we lived in a perfect world, there wouldn’t be strays because the owners would have lived up to their responsibilities.  We get stray dogs sometimes because people drop them off thinking some kind soul will take it in.  My mother-in-law has done that for 4 animals (shockingly - two cats!) in Southwest Florida and while she lived in the Rochester, NY area.

My best friend’s animals?  All rescues.

One of our neighbor’s dogs got out of its fence and impregnated the dog running loose down the street who owner got upset.  So, all animal lovers, take care of your animals.  If you don’t want litters, spay or neuter them.  If you can’t keep them, it’s your responsibility to find them their new home.

Dear Sarah,

Please forvgive me; I should have said “solidly-Christian woman”.  That pesky “do unto others” thing again…

RE: “Animal control here told a neighbor - feed it three times, it’s yours.”

Thankfully not legally true here—although it’s certainly an interesting slogan.

I do agree with this line: “It reveals more about the person than they realize, just as how we handle those irritations do about ourselves.”

Certainly were a neighbor of mine to take the above actions we’ve referenced, not only would my response be revealing about me—but the neighbor’s actions would be revealing about them.

And that would mean—as I’ve pointed out earlier—consequences for both parties.

I’d be willing to accept those consequences personally and I expect the neighbors would for themselves as well.

Which would get back to . . . we wouldn’t have good neighbors in one another.

Thankfully, I expect all of us have great neighbors.  What a relief for us all that we’re not neighbors of one another but have the ones we have!!!!  ; > )

God has blessed us.

Were a neighbor to ask me to clean their flower thingy of course I’d be happy to do so—while wondering what that neighbor does with the squirrel poop and the bird poop and the raccoon poop and the opossum poop.
I did not ask.  They volunteered it as a solution to the dilemma.  I was grateful to have a neighbor who cherished our friendship enough to find a solution to our mutual problem.  In all the years I’ve lived here I have never encountered squirrel poop although I have lots of the pesky buggers in my oak trees.  The birds, thankfully don’t poop in my flower beds. The pigeons (rats with wings) are another story altogether.  My Akita (who I miss greatly) convinced the oppossums and the other wild critters that life could not be lived in our yard.

But regardless it would not be a successful neighborly relationship.    Sarah, my dear friend, God did not make us sisters but I chose you as a sister of my heart without regard to the fact our opinions do not always coincide.  I will assume you are taking your turn at bah-humbug and move on.

I just read this thread and am really surprised at how intolerant some people are of cats in their yards.  I personally think it’s cruel to keep a cat indoors. Sometimes it’s necessary, but they are inherently outdoor creatures. We keep ours in at night because the coyotes have invaded the area, and it’s far too dangerous for the kitties to be out then. Cats do very little harm to anyone’s yard, and the occasional uneaten prey that they may leave is not much to complain about, unless you’re looking for a reason to complain.  I’m sensing a lot of anti-cat bias which is not particularly rational. I admit, I’m a cat (and dog) lover, but I think that some folks here are really being over the top about this.  As far as the dog story, the people who let the dog run unattended are at fault as well as the man who shot him.  Both should be ashamed.

RE: “I will assume you are taking your turn at bah-humbug and move on.”

Not at all.  I’m just accepting reality—we would not make good neighbors as at least one of us would be upset over the cat issue.

But God has blessed us, Jackie—we are *not* neighbors and we *are* friends.  Just imagine if the reverse had happened.

If we had been neighbors both of us would have thought the other a loon!

But instead we are friends [and I am still a loon].

Even conservatives must disagree over *something*—and if it is over something as minor as the place of cats in the biosphere, then I accept that joyfully.

So AliB, you would feel the same way about your neighbor’s pet alligator?  Why should your neighbor have to provide that outside space for your pet?  My kids didn’t play in neighbor’s yards unless they were invited to do so.  Common courtesy goes a long way - even when it violates your preference for putting an animal first.

Alli B, I know the value of my outdoor cat.  It is $21.95, which is the price on eBay for one (1) reuseable stainless steel Revenge Spear Mole Trap guaranteed to fatally skewer pesky moles and gophers who are busily digging up my back yard.  My cat was a first-class mole killer in her day.  Alas, she is now retired from the profession due to arthritis or whatever it is that’s slowed her down.

Jackie, alligators strolling through the yard are different for the following reason:

Grilled Cajun Style Gator Tail Recipe

4 To 6 Lbs Gator Tail
Lemon wedges

Cajun Seasoning Mix:

12 T Paprika
6 T Garlic powder
3 T Salt
3 T White pepper
3 T Oregano, crushed
3 T Black pepper
2 1/2 T Thyme
1 T Cayenne pepper

Combine paprika, garlic powder, salt, white pepper, oregano, black pepper, thyme and cayenne pepper in jar with tight fitting lid. Shake well. Cut gator tail meat into 1/2” cubes. Roll each cube in 1 tablespoon of the mixture. Cook over high heat on an outdoor barbecue grill or under the oven broiler for 4 to 6 minutes, or until gator tail meat is white and firm to the touch. Serve warm with lemon wedges.

Chazaq - I agree.  Cat has a bitter aftertaste. 

I just read this thread and am really surprised at how intolerant some people are of cats in their yards.  I personally think it’s cruel to keep a cat indoors.

It really depends on the cat and the size of the house.

My first two cats were indoor-outdoor cats, with the one in Arizona being an exquisite hunter that did his part toward keeping the rabbits and birds in check, much to my mother’s dismay.  We got my third cat from an animal rescue shelter.  She was half-dead when we got her, and her growth stunted.  However, once we nursed her back to health she was a beautiful long hair that had ZERO desire to ever leave the comforts of the house.  She had gotten quite enough of the great outdoors as an abandoned kitten.

Just in case…..

IT WAS A JOKE.

BTW, a slightly relevent quote comes to mind.

One of the first lessons life teaches us is that on these occasions of back-chat between the delicately-nurtured a man should retire into the offing, curl up in a ball, and imitate the prudent tactics of the opossum, which, when danger is in the air, pretends to be dead, frequently going to the length of hanging out crepe and instructing its friends to stand round and say what a pity it all is.

Sarah [57]
If that really were your reply (If I really asked you to keep your beast out of my yard), would you cease to be neighbourly when I called animal control?

I don’t want an ‘animal free yard’ - but I do want one were the critters in it (humans not being critters, but people) are the ones that belong around these parts, squirrels, moles, and birds are fine.  However, no cats, armadillos, dogs, or hamsters are desired.

The attitude of ‘ownership’ or the cat as ‘pet’ and then professing ‘he can roam as he pleases’ reeks (to me) of your attempting to determine for me what animals are welcomed in my yard.  Would you have them same ‘well, too bad’ if I had a big ol’ tom and he came over and killed your cat for the mere pleasure and buried the corpse in your azaleas ?

RE: “The attitude of ‘ownership’ or the cat as ‘pet’ and then professing ‘he can roam as he pleases’ . . . “

As I’ve made repeatedly clear, Bo, on this thread.

You may be the kind of neighbor you choose to be.

And I shall be the same.

Just as the man who shot the dog for entering his yard was “the kind of neighbor he chose to be” so you may be as you choose.

And those choices will have consequences for all—the cats, the dead dog, and the neighbors.

Actually,
Being friendly with folks who let their beasts use my yard ain’t hard - being friendly with their beasts is.

I have to more of the kind of neighbour my wife wants her husband to be (and yes, our Lord has His hand in it too)....

I simply bury the moles, occasionally squirt water and the neighbour’s beasts when they’re using my porch posts as scratching poles, and chase the cats off the car.  Their hair stays on the roof though, making my poor car shed as I drive off to work in the mornings.  My soon-to-be daughter-in-law (or so she and my son claim) can’t ride in the car, as the cat hairs still attached to my roof bother her allergies. 

Ny Christmas lights cause me some concern as well.  If the neighbours cats get themselves a paw full of electricity will it be my fault (I know they scratch at the posts the lights encircle), or my neighbour’s for letting them roam?  Will I feel guilty (regardless of whose fault it is)?

I don’t know, nor do I know from your reply if you’d still be neighbourly if I called Animal control to pick up the stray you’d just disowned.  I do know that my neighbours see no problems with letting their cats roam, and told me ‘well, their not scratching the car or anything’ when I complained about the cat hair all over my car’s roof.

“good walls do good neighbors make.”

AndrewA, here’s another potentially relevant quote, although this one is not from P. G. Wodehouse as yours was:

The Heimlich maneuver works on house pets. My pit bull was choking on his dinner. I squeezed his stomach and the neighbor’s cat shot right out.

RE: “pretends to be dead, frequently going to the length of hanging out crepe and instructing its friends to stand round and say what a pity it all is. . . . “

You will be amazed, no doubt, to hear AndrewA that this is one of Brand’s favorite little games.

He does his play dead act . . . with the hopes of hearing all of his friends stand around and eulogize him.

I dutifully comply.  We all stand around and talk about what a fine fellow Brand was.

And he giggles, albeit with his eyes squeezed firmly shut.

Yep! You’ve got a Husky!  Love your description of The Dance!  When our Husky got lose, the stray half grown cat who adopted our dog, NOT us, would follow him and then sit out front of which ever driveway he had gone down waiting for “her Keenie” to come back out to the road!  Thus we found the dog much easier while Tommie was with us…we were in the Mts. with bear and numerous other animals tho…and our Tommie kitty loved/needed to be outdoors some of the time, and so she was…for a while anyway :-(

I find it a contradiction that anyone who is a Christian would make a decision that impacts someone else without regard to that person or their property, no matter what kind of animal it is:  dog, cat, boa constrictor, or an elephant.  And then is displeased when someone choses to act upon actions that arise out of those poor choices.  Jesus makes it clear that we are not to offend our neighbor, but to love them as ourselves.  Many of us do turn the other cheek when it comes to these free will choices of others.  I’m saddened for a lot of what I’ve read here, because it is the exact same thing we charge reappraisers - they do what they want without regard for others, especially being unbiblical.

My dad has spent a lot of money being treated for the wonderful diseases infected cat scat has brought while he tends his hobby - his beloved plants.  We’ve had to fill in holes dug under our fence, replace boards broken on same fence caused by untended pets.  My mother has had to give up riding her bike in our neighborhood because of people who think of themselves above others.  She worked with several people who let their animals roam so that those people knew when she would ride and keep their dogs in.  But Mom finally gave up when one jerk new to the neighborhood decided to harrass and threaten her and me, going down every street stalking her.  Her health has declined rapidly since then.  That’s why I understand the man in the thread above’s frustration well, although I would not have made the choice he did. 

More than likely, if you have a neighbor who’s unhappy, they’ve already communicated it to you in different ways.  Were you listening or did you just blow them off as loons? 

Anyone who has an animal has the responsiblity to know what the codes are that affect your ownership.  Failing to do this goes beyond ignorance of the law, but means you are failing to be a good steward of what God has given you.  I think some people on this list would be truly surprised to know that they are under obligation to maintain their own pet (including cats) on their own property.  But based on the comments, I would guess those codes would be ignored because they aren’t convenient and don’t adhere to that particular mindset.  Again, something we hold against reappraisers.

As to the cat bias comment, I prefer dogs, but have had the pleasure/honor of two different cats choosing to sleep on my chest and by my head.  Have known four other cats whom are special to me. They all adopted me as a guest. 

Thanks to this thread, I have a new appreciation for my best friend - she adopted rescues - dogs and cats, keeps them under control so they don’t bother anyone else.  They are happy and well loved.  Someone else once said that when they died, they wanted to come back as one of her pets. While I don’t believe in reincarnation, I understand the reason.

Lord, I pray that all of us would act the way You would want us to, so that we are good witnesses of Your character.  Help us to love each other in spite of our differences, and help us to be better lights of You to others.  Help us all to submit our will to Yours in all that we do.  I ask this of You through Your Son Jesus and with the power of the Holy Spirit.  Amen.

Wow, Lakeland, that’s quite a strident post.  Nobody has asked me to keep my cats in.  If they had a problem with my cats in their yard, I would keep them in.  I don’t remember saying otherwise. 
Re: “More than likely, if you have a neighbor who’s unhappy, they’ve already communicated it to you in different ways.  Were you listening or did you just blow them off as loons?” 
Actually, it is you who are not giving us the benefit of the doubt.  Why would you assume any of us didn’t listen to our neighbors and blew them off as loons?  That’s a strange accusation.  Perhaps your feelings have been colored by your dad’s illness.  I don’t know.  I think as Christians we are all aware that we need to be considerate of others.

Alli B,
Some of the other cat feeders here have pretty stated that they don’t intend to keep their cats in their houses, or even on their own land.  Lakeland’s message was right on target for them.

You did say that to keep a cat indoors was cruel.  What do you think allowing cats to spread disease is?

“What do you think allowing cats to spread disease is?”
Honestly?  Really - no offense intended - that’s absurd. I can’t believe these posts!  All animals outdoors create waste.  You think cats are creating disease by being outside as they have been for centuries?  Oh, my goodness.  Step back and think about what you’re saying, folks.

People outdoors create waste, too, and therefore, does this mean that we shouldn’t be outdoors, either?

Alli B,
You can have your own opinion.
You don’t get your own copy of the facts, cats spread diseases:

“Ringworm is probably the most common zoonosis of cats. Vets who treat ringwormy cats are used to seeing owners with red, scaly, itchy patches of skin. Ringworm is not a worm but a fungus; it normally causes circular scaly patches (which often fluoresce under a Woods Lamp [UV light]). Some strains do not fluoresce and must be cultured in the laboratory to provide a diagnosis. Unfortunately up to 40% of cats may have the fungus without showing any symptoms.

It is a nuisance to eradicate from a household because of fungal spores. Cat treatment is usually by tablet (sometimes by dips or baths). Human treatment is usually by anti-fungal creams. The human version is probably frequently dismissed as eczema by cat owners and left untreated. As with other skin diseases, the red scaly circular patches may be itchy and continued scratching may cause scarring.”

“Some feline intestinal parasites can also be transmitted to humans. Roundworm eggs infect humans, particularly children, through a faecal to oral route. Hookworms and roundworms (Ancylostoma and Ascaris ) are common nematodes of dogs and cats. When a human accidentally eats something contaminated with worm eggs from a pet’s stool, the eggs hatch in the intestines and begin migrating throughout that person’s body. Worm larva can also burrow through intact skin. Because these parasites were designed to live in dogs and cats, they become lost in the human body – often in the liver or eyes. When this occurs, the disease is called visceral larval migrans. This disease occurs most often in children due to their poor hygienic practices. In the eye the larval nematodes cause inflammation and blindness. In the liver they can cause chills, fever, malaise and an elevated white blood cell count.”

“Cryptosporidium parvum causes diarrhea in dogs, cats, rodents, young calves and people. It is found throughout the World. It is passed from individual to individual through fecal contamination. The disease in animals and man is usually mild and self-limiting. Signs of the disease include diarrhea, abdominal pain and flu-like symptoms that can last up to six weeks. The disease is more severe in very old and very young animals and people. In immunocompromized individuals it may cause chronic inflammation of the digestive tract. The disease is passed through fecal contamination from animals.”

“Toxoplasmosis is caused by Toxoplasma gondii, a small single-celled protozoan. About forty percent of the people in the United States have been exposed to the disease at some point in their lives. The complete life cycle of toxoplasmosis occurs only in cats. These felines become infected by preying on infected birds and rodents. Most cats show no symptoms of disease. In these cats, the organism lives within the cells that line the small intestine. Cats are the only animals that shed this ineffective stage of this protozoan called an oocyst. Most exposures of humans to oocysts cause no overt disease. In a small percentage, however, the oocysts proliferates in many organs of the body causing fever, malaise, enlarged lymph nodes, headache, sore throat and muscle pain. In severe cases the central nervous system, eyes and liver become inflamed. “

Cat Scratch Fever (Bartonellosis)
This infection, caused by Bartonella henselae, is commonly acquired from asymptomatic (clinically normal) carrier cats. About half of the outdoor cats in the southern United States have been exposed at one time or another to the disease (please read my article on Cat Scratch Fever). We think it is spread by the cat flea. People infected with this disease by a contaminated cat scratch or bite experience fever, malaise and enlarged painful lymph nodes as well as a local inflammation at the site of the wound.

[84] Posted by Cennydd

No but we should bury it, somewhere other than our neighbour’s flower beds, lawns, or driveways.

Most places where people are allowed to “use the litter box” outdoors are rather a good distance from any neighbour’s house…

Alli B, Bo is right, go back and reread the whole thread.  I don’t assume everyone has blown their neighbor off - Jackie’s is proof of that.  What I am saying is that some people - not all - miss cues, some intentionally because they don’t want to face the consequences.  As our society heads the way it is, it is proving safer not to confront in person.

I would suggest to anyone who allows their animal(s) to run free who really cares to ask their neighbors if their pet is “visiting” their property.  When looking for their answer, take into consideration any hesitation, looking away or other non-verbal cues when you listen to the answer.  That will give you a clue if they are frustrated.  Some may not care, some may and are trying to avoid confrontation - but would rather your pet remain at home.  Let that be your guide.

I don’t agree with anyone’s pet running loose - because there are unintended consequences for the pet. Seen too many carcasses along side the road. 

We all have great freedom to make a variety of choices here in the USA.  However, we also have a great responsibility to make sure our choices don’t become someone else’s burdens.  That has been my point through out this thread.  If all of us acted with more regard to our fellow man we would be in a much better society.

If the Scheeles had excercised proper direct control of their dog, it would not have wandered off into the yard of someone else and thereby have been exposed to an unknown and deadly danger/consequence.  I’m not a lawyer and I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but feel the Scheeles bear some responsibility in this, especially as visitors to the neighborhood.  We think Mr. Dustin has been adequately punished, on top of his being contrite at the unintended consequences of his actions.

We have much respect for Sarah in a good deal many other things, including her view/theory on lawsuits.  While we aren’t in agreement on several aspects on this thread, if we were neighbors, we would still help her out if she needed it, call the cops to protect her, and even bring her a tasty and healthsome meal (no arsenic ) if we heard she was sick.  We’d even feed her dog or darn cat(s) while she was on vacation, even though we would still be shooing them from our yard.  She is to be commended for helping strays and we hope that in taking strays to the vet, the vet neuters/spays the stray.

May we all please God with our actions.

The man who shot the dog was wrong - unequivocally wrong. If the dog wasn’t threatening him or one of his own pets, then he had absolutely no right to shoot it. Even if you consider a dog not a member of the family, but merely property, he has no right to destroy someone else’s property. If he shot up your car when you mistakenly drove into his driveway, as another poster pointed out, he would be held liable. What’s more, he’s absolutely irresponsible to be shooting any kind of gun in a residential area. Even BB and air guns guns do damage. This nut is out of control. As for people’s emotional attachment to their pets, I understand that not everyone is a dog or cat lover, I happen to be both. I don’t think pets are quite human, but they certainly have a relationship with their owners that gives a great deal of pleasure to both owner and animal. Pets can be a great comfort to those who are elderly, ill, lonely, distressed, or whatever. A dog is often more loyal and loving than people are. A dog asks nothing form you but food and shelter and affection; if you give him those, he’s loyal to you through thick and thin. Can we all say that about the people we love?

A note on indoor/outdoor cats: I understand that in osme cases it’s practical and even necessary to have outside cats, as in the case of barn cats. However, in general I think it’s much more responsible to keep cats indoors. Outside, depending on where you live, cats face coyotes, cars, poisoning, etc. The SPCA where we adopted 2 of our cats and the dog we now have asks you if you will agree to keep the cat indoors. (Our other cat adopted us after I fed her on our porch for months. He grew closer and closer to me and to our dog, and one day I picked him up, put him in a crate, and took him to the vet. He rapidly became the most affectionate of our cats, although I know for a fact that he was feral, since my neighbor and I first saw him as a tiny kitten with his mother and siblings in her yard.)

The Scheeles are the ones who are nuts - feeding dogs “people food”, brushing their teeth, and putting raincoats on dogs?  Not nuts enough to be a danger to themselves or society, but definitely not sharing a rational view of the world…

The gentleman plead guilty to animal cruelty - its about time the Scheeles plead guilty to human cruelty, figured out that dogs aren’t really people, and learned to keep the beast on a leash.