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[Off Topic] Another Vote for Diagramming Sentences

Tuesday, February 2, 2010 • 12:03 pm


There's a fun off-and-on discussion on diagramming sentences over on the Phi Beta Cons blog at NRO [just do a "find" on "diagram." For the record my vote is "yes." It was an incredibly useful exercise for me, rather like doing scales and arpeggios for 10 minutes of your initial practice. It helps kids -- even if unconsciously -- dig in to the structure and substructures of sentences. And learning backwards and forwards the various structures and substructures of sentences gives one mastery over those sentences.

I promise not to found a new religion over my belief, however.

Here's an excerpt from one post:
A visit to any grocery store will reveal just how poorly people have been taught their native language. Signs will say, "Orange's" and "Apple's". Signs will confuse "two," "too," and "to," etc.

Admittedly, I am a dinosaur. I attended excellent public schools on Long Island in the 1960s-1970s. I will always remember diagramming sentences; I have never known ANYONE else who was required to do that. Indeed, no one even knows what I am talking about.

Here's another excerpt from another post:
Below are several responses I received from readers.

James B. Morris writes:

This is not a new problem. When I was in high school (in the late '70s) I went through the honors program for four years straight. We never read a single Dickens book, no Melville, or Milton. None were required. We read only one Shakespeare play (Romeo+Juliet of course).

Instead we were pummeled with insipid and self-absorbed junk like Rabbit Run and Catcher in the Rye.

My cousin still brags that he made it all the way through twelve years of schooling and two years of community college without ever having to read a single book cover-to-cover.
. . .

. . . Diagramming sentences! I wonder how many education schools insist that prospective English teachers learn how to diagram sentences and the importance of teaching their students how to do it? I'd wager that in nearly every ed school, if someone suggested that, he'd be hooted at as a backward-looking rube who doesn't understand that we no longer use such mechanistic and creativity-suppressing tools as sentence diagramming any more.


Comments:

Perhaps I did have to diagram sentences at some time in my life.  I think I had to suffer this oppression, but we all tend to block traumatic experiences from our minds.  In any case, I couldn’t do it now on a bet.  Far more important than being able to diagram sentences is to read the work of good writers. This has two salutory impacts:

1.  You tend to model your writing after those you read.

2.  You learn enough to have something to say when you write.

I used to visit eighth-grade classrooms to prosletyze the students for Engineering.  One of the things I would tell them was the courses they should take in HS to make this possible.  At the top of the list was always English.  “Engineers must be able to communicate” I would say, and then I would add “And I mean real English courses where you read long hard books that have no pictures and are written by good writers.”  (It was always fun to watch teachers react to that statement.)  But the message I was providing was fundamental.  To write well, you must read well.  It doesn’t come from mechanistic repetition.

Personally, I think diagramming sentences is a waste of valuable time that could be more profitably spent learning differential equations, or multi-dimensional calculus.  But that’s just me.

carl
who is plesantly surprised that SF has been free of Australian Open threads these past few days.

[1] Posted by carl on 02-02-2010 at 12:38 PM • top

I recall the process, which I did not like too much at the time, but….my children and grandchildren have never heard of it..and want no part of it even when introduced as a game..too bad

[2] Posted by ewart-touzot on 02-02-2010 at 12:45 PM • top

I agree w/ Carl that one of the best way to instill grammar and writing skills is through the literature in classes.  Classical writers who know how to write - esp when read aloud! - will develop the ear to what sounds right. 

Try this one for diagramming:

that that is is that that that that is not is not. 

(It actually does make sense.)

then there are always Latin and Gk, starting at age 3 or 4…..

[3] Posted by maineiac on 02-02-2010 at 02:48 PM • top

Sentence diagramming by a teacher at the blackboard (I mean, whiteboard—I date myself) might have some pedagogical benefit, but having students do it is not particularly helpful.  It’s far better that they understand basic grammar and usage and immerse themselves in the good writing of others.  And of course it’s critical that students write, not only in English classes, but in all of their classes.  Sadly, many classes give only multiple choice tests that can be instantly scanned.  This is really cheating students.

I suspect there is no positive correlation between an ability to diagram sentences and good writing.  There may even be a negative correlation, representing time better spent reading great literature and writing papers.

[4] Posted by RomeAnglican on 02-02-2010 at 03:40 PM • top

My first year out of college I taught 7th & 8th grade English. All I taught was grammar. By the end of the year, my students knew the 4 types of sentences and the 8 ways in which words can be used. They knew how to write a paragraph, essay, personal letter and a business letter…

The kids hated me. The parents loathed the very air I polluted with my thoughts… Until my 8th graders got the highest scores ever (for that school), on the state writing test. Then I was beloved among men; but still let go at the end of the year.

I diagrammed sentences in Ms. Palmer’s 7th grade English class @ McNichol Jr High in 1966 - 67. We had grammar bees instead of spelling bees. Ms. P ran roughshod over our scrawny butts… and we learned. We already knew the basics, our K-6 teachers saw to that, but Ms. Palmer put the finishing touches to our skills.

I have been teaching for 14 years and have yet to meet a student who has a good command of the written word. I have only met a few who truly read at grade level. This isn’t to mean that the kids are stupid… just untrained…

No one ever died from the work required to diagram a sentence… Oh, wait! there is that 4 letter word that students run screaming from… WORK.

Cell me old fashioned… My kids can not read or write at grade level when they initially come to me, but if the want “A’s” they have to learn…

[5] Posted by bdino on 02-02-2010 at 03:58 PM • top

I am proud to report that my 4th grader has to diagram sentences.  It goes without saying that he is not in public school.  I actually enjoyed diagramming sentences; it was like drawing a map of the words and I love maps.

[6] Posted by Raised as an Atheist on 02-02-2010 at 04:01 PM • top

Yes!

Victory!

[7] Posted by bdino on 02-02-2010 at 04:02 PM • top

Count me as one who is glad I had to diagram sentences! And bdino, at my newspaper, we often have summer interns. They come to us saying they love to write, they want to be journalists. They don’t have a clue how to put together a story, can’t write an opening (lead) even after we discuss it and show them multiple examples - and most either don’t know how or are unwilling to write a compound or complex sentence of any type. Subject verb object subject verb object subject verb object.

[8] Posted by oscewicee on 02-02-2010 at 04:25 PM • top

Diagramming sentences gives a clear understanding of the various parts of speech and so does Latin. I think both should be required in our schools so we truly learn our language.

[9] Posted by adamsmith on 02-02-2010 at 04:42 PM • top

Fun topic.  Someone punctuate this one for me

While Pat had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher.

Jamesf

[10] Posted by jamesf on 02-02-2010 at 04:57 PM • top

Yup - I taught students to diagram sentences for years, and found they rather liked it.  We would create outrageous sentences to challenge one another.  It’s particularly helpful for boys to diagram because they can “see” language patterns through the more visual, linear, mathematical/logical approach, but it also clarifies grammar for girls.

I’m not a huge grammarian, and refused to teach grammar in isolation, but rather integrated it into the writing components of the curriculum. But I can recommend diagramming as a great way to reinforce or teach basic sentence patterns and how parts of speech are interrelated to create meaning.

[11] Posted by cityonahill on 02-02-2010 at 05:16 PM • top

I was graduated from high school in 1960, so that gives you the definite idea that I was made to diagram sentences in what we then called “Junior High School.”  I loved diagramming sentences in 7th and 8th grades.  I also loved to read, and I read through Clifton Fadiman’s list, “One Hundred Great Books”, during the summer between my 10th and 11th grades at Lowell High School in San Francisco.  I took four years of Latin at Lowell, and I believe it is only the four years of Latin, together with my understanding of how language is constructed into sentences and paragraphs, that allowed me to pass Greek I, II and III in Seminary in my sixties, older than all students and all professors at my seminary!  Three Cheers for diagramming sentences!
I plan to teach my grandchildren the art of sentence
diagramming when they reach the appropriate ages!

[12] Posted by Deacon Francie on 02-02-2010 at 05:19 PM • top

Every sermon the first task I set to is to diagram the text in the original language. Never ceases to provide great benefits of understanding.

[13] Posted by David Ould on 02-02-2010 at 05:19 PM • top

The two most important things that helped me to understand English grammar were diagramming sentences and learning another language.

[14] Posted by BrianInDioSpfd on 02-02-2010 at 06:08 PM • top

I had to diagram sentences in English clas, and never really understood what we were doing, until I took Latin and we diagrammed Latin sentences. Suddenly it all made sense, the matching ending on nouns and modifiers and on subjects and verbs made it crystal clear.

[15] Posted by Marie Blocher on 02-02-2010 at 06:11 PM • top

One of the worst mispronunciations which we most commonly hear is the word NUCLEAR being pronounced as NU-CULAR, and it drives me nuts!  It is NEW-CLEAR, people!

[16] Posted by Cennydd on 02-02-2010 at 06:25 PM • top

I believe I did some diagramming in 8th grade english(1968-69).
However my immersion to diagramming came in the basic greek intensive course for 5 weeks at CDSP prior to beginning first-year seminary study. 
No further comment necessary.

[17] Posted by Rob Eaton+ on 02-02-2010 at 06:31 PM • top

I can’t think of any secular books that teach diagramming.  All the ones that I can think of (Rod and Staff, Voyages in English, Abeka, Elementary Diagramming Workbook, I’m sure there are others, cruise a homeschool convention) are Christian.  I doubt that students will find it in a public school.  The teachers, unless they are products of private or home schools, would not have had the opportunity to learn it.

[18] Posted by Recently Roman on 02-02-2010 at 06:42 PM • top

I accidentally managed to unsub to this.

[19] Posted by jamesf on 02-02-2010 at 06:44 PM • top

In Catholic elementary school, we diagramed sentences with a vengenance (using Loyola University’s “Voyages in English”).  Diagraming instilled the rules of grammar and good sentence structure into the marrow of my bones.  It likewise enabled me to learn Latin, Greek, French, and Spanish, because I understood so well the structure of my native language.

[20] Posted by Father Bob on 02-02-2010 at 07:34 PM • top

Interesting.  As I was looking through some of the school work my 2nd grader brought home last week, I discovered some rudimentary diagramming of sentences was going on in her class.  I was quite pleased at the time to see it.  She goes to a public school.  Here I should mention that her teacher is in her 54th year of teaching.  She has a reputation for being tough and old fashioned but my wife and I love her…

[21] Posted by Nevin on 02-02-2010 at 07:37 PM • top

I don’t feel qualified to comment, I was the comma splice king of the seventh grade.

[22] Posted by Undergroundpewster on 02-02-2010 at 08:21 PM • top

I LOVED diagramming sentences.  I had a really good algebra teacher in 7th grade and I thought diagramming sentences was just like algebra.  It all made sense once you learned how the sentence or equation worked.  My oldest is in 7th grade.  My husband is the go-to guy for her advanced math help and her science help.  I was thinking that once the sentence diagramming came along, I might end up being of some worth.  But no… apparently they don’t do that kind of thing anymore. 

How can you really figure out gerunds, participles and infinitives without knowing the basics of diagramming?

And don’t get me started on how they’re teaching our children how to do long division…

[23] Posted by more martha than mary on 02-02-2010 at 08:53 PM • top

Yeah, could have helped Karl Barth:

‘And then the last question could hardly be omitted, whether the vestigia in question, upon which in that case the doctrine of the Trinity would really be grounded, were really to be regarded at all as the vestigia of a Creator-God transcending the world and not rather as a determinations of the cosmos now to be regarded as strictly immanent; and, because the cosmos is man’s cosmos, as determinations of human existence; whether therefore the concept of natural as well as that of Biblical revelation might not have to be struck out and the doctrine of the Trinity adjudged to be the bold attempt of man’s understanding of the world and, in the last resort, of self, i.e. adjudged to be myth.’ (Church Dogmatics, Vol 1, Part 1, p. 385)

[24] Posted by Festivus on 02-02-2010 at 09:00 PM • top

#23 - you speeketh blasphemy against the new, new math?

[25] Posted by Festivus on 02-02-2010 at 09:01 PM • top

I do, Festivus.  How can you timely answer the question when you’re having to do all that weird lined box drawing?

[26] Posted by more martha than mary on 02-02-2010 at 09:08 PM • top

#23 Festivus,

It’s not the Barth, It’s the translation.

[27] Posted by Undergroundpewster on 02-02-2010 at 09:09 PM • top

I’d gladly cast a vote for diagramming sentences, as well.  I have fond memories of diagramming in the 6th grade (Mrs. Fahrer, Van Asselt Elementary, 1956); I don’t doubt that it helped me greatly down through the years, perhaps as much as Strunk’s The Elements of Style.

[28] Posted by Costanoan on 02-02-2010 at 10:03 PM • top

Lutheran Lurkers (#18)

All the ones that I can think of (Rod and Staff, Voyages in English, Abeka, Elementary Diagramming Workbook, I’m sure there are others, cruise a homeschool convention) are Christian

You left off one of the best. We use First Language Lessons for the Well Trained Mind by Susan Wise Bauer and recommend it. Her early history curriculum (The Story of the World) is even better.

[29] Posted by Positive Phototaxis on 02-02-2010 at 10:21 PM • top

I diagrammed sentences all through Jr. High and High School, in English and Spanish. It was immensely helpful with both languages.  In my undergraduate days, (1964-) Freshman English was the one class that separated the children from the adults.  More Frosh failed that than any other.  I was exceedingly glad to have had the rigorous curriculum I did in High School.  My wife, who graduated from a neighboring district, never learned to diagram or spell, and can be quite creative.

[30] Posted by Charles III on 02-02-2010 at 11:59 PM • top

Diagraming sentences, or at least being able to ‘do the fish bones’ is an essential art. 

Without being able to fillet that fish, how, pray tell, would one be able to follow the writtings of St. Paul?

“...that that is, is that that; that that is not, is not…”

[31] Posted by Bo on 02-03-2010 at 03:55 AM • top

#27 - sure, pass the blame to the translators. You expect me to believe they can’t diagram a sentence? wink

[32] Posted by Festivus on 02-03-2010 at 07:23 AM • top

Been there.  Done that.  In English, Latin, and German.
Extraordinarily helpful.  Particularly with St Paul.

For those diagrammers looking for a challenge, I submit this wikipedia reference to the hotly contested “longest sentence in the English language”. 
Diagram away to heart’s content!

[33] Posted by dwstroudmd on 02-03-2010 at 10:12 AM • top

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_English_sentence

Um, proof-reading was a difficult skill, it seems!  ;>)

[34] Posted by dwstroudmd on 02-03-2010 at 10:14 AM • top

Positive Phototaxis,

I know there are probably more.  I have not used the Susan Wise Bauer First Language Lessons.  She initially had the early grades on English for the Thoughtful Child.  In the grammar sweepstakes, Shurley Grammar would also be in the running.  It is not traditional diagramming because it is done orally, but achieves pretty much the same thing.  Again, it is Christian.

Father Bob,
Voyages is back in print through Our Lady of Victory school, Lepanto Press.  It has some of the best descriptions of grammar rules out there.  An oldie, but goody.  Other vendors have it too.  Contact me offline if interested.  Voyages is one of those series that has been rescued by traditional educators after having been trashed by modern education theorists.

[35] Posted by Recently Roman on 02-03-2010 at 10:52 AM • top

We never read a single Dickens book, no Melville, or Milton. None were required. We read only one Shakespeare play (Romeo+Juliet of course).

Instead we were pummeled with insipid and self-absorbed junk like Rabbit Run and Catcher in the Rye.

We read Dickens, Melville, and plenty of Shakespeare.  I think we had some modest exposure to Milton.  We also read Cathcher in the Rye.

However, diagramming sentences, and indead most of my formal grammar education beyond the elementary level, was limited to 7th grade and 12th grade.  The rest of the time was focused on reading literature and writing prose, not the mechanics of grammar.  I would like to think I made up for it by reading lots of well written books, but I realize my grammar can be far from perfect.  It is the one shortcoming of my education that I blame on the school system instead of myself.

[36] Posted by AndrewA on 02-03-2010 at 11:18 AM • top

I envy you AndrewA. In high school, we read almost nothing worthwhile. We got Romeo and Juliet in the most simiple-minded way possible - a trip to the theatre to see Zeferelli’s film (which was and is quite good, but doesn’t teach you about Shakespeare’s language.) The same teacher, my senior English teacher, required monthly book reports, but comic books were acceptable “books.” I was so glad to get to college.

[37] Posted by oscewicee on 02-03-2010 at 11:28 AM • top

I attended a LCMS day school for grades 2-8 (1943-1950).  We were gradually introduced to the fine art of diagramming sentences and then practiced daily in grades 5-8.  I enjoyed it very much.  High School was a breeze: four years of English were required!  Junior year was dedicated to the study of American Literature (Catcher in the Rye had not yet been written and my mother would have burned it anyway), Senior year we studied English Lit.  I still have my book.

I entered Concordia Teachers’ College 1954 and scored high enough on the essay part that I was exempt from the required fist & second year English classes.  My advisor over-rode the decision of the test judges and I had to take them anyway.  I am glad for that, because we were required to do our research at the Newberry Library downtown and consult oringinal sources for all refernces in our lengthy written assignments.

I was teaching technical writing, using APA format, at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs in 1970 when admission was opened up to any high school graduate; suddenly I had students who could not string words together to make a coherent sentence.  Up to that point, the philosophy of the Psychology Dept. had been, “If the student gets and F, the instructor has failed the course”.  We had to alter that one a bit!

Frances Scott

[38] Posted by Frances S Scott on 02-03-2010 at 12:03 PM • top

#18:  Warriner’s English Grammar and Composition

I haven’t googled it to see if it’s still in print….

[39] Posted by maineiac on 02-03-2010 at 06:03 PM • top

My best friend taught religion at Bos Col for a few yrs and was baffled when her students didn’t thing grammar counted (she considered it when grading papers), becs “this isn’t an English class.”  (Therefore, we don’t have to know how to write?)

[40] Posted by maineiac on 02-03-2010 at 06:14 PM • top

Warriner’s English Grammar is available second hand.  The Mother of Divine Grace homeschool curriculum uses it for high school.

[41] Posted by Recently Roman on 02-03-2010 at 07:43 PM • top

I’ll chime in on this.  I vote yes for diagramming. It certainly helped me understand grammar and sentence structure.  I have my 10 year old diagramming both English and Latin, and I think it is serving that same purpose for him.  By the way, we are using First Form Latin from Memoria Press and Classical Writing by Kathy Weitz.  Memoria is certainly Christian.  I’m pretty sure Classical Writing is as well.

[42] Posted by yoderdame on 02-03-2010 at 08:04 PM • top

#10.  James,

How about:

While Pat had had “had had”, “had” had had a better effect on the teacher.

[43] Posted by CanaAnglican on 02-04-2010 at 02:34 PM • top

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