Report: +Rowan’s Video Address Gets Icy Reaction

No applause for a more kicking the can down the road??? Go figure. “Bold” and “leadership” should not placed any where close to “Rowan Williams”. (Oops, I just did.) Rowan is more of the problem with the AC than KJS, VGR, and DBB, etc.

Yay!

It’s almost as if ++Rowan is trying to goad Gafcon into leaving.  Or he has surrendered to KJS, and this is his white flag.
Archbishop Mouneer Anis’ address that followed is a most effective answer.  Hoping it is up soon on Anglican TV.

I am glad to read this and hope that this report is accurate and is followed by concrete action.  I see Rowan’s address as kicking sand in the face of the gathered primates (see my comments posted on another thread.  The primates had repeatedly expressed their unhappiness that Rowan had been bypassing them (who as the lead bishops had the apostolic responsibility to deal with the issue) but Rowan simply repeated that he would be discussing possible actions with unspecified other persons in the Communion.  This is a kick in the face, so why should they cheer???

Thinking about what I just said in #3, I ran over and put a little money in the plate over at Anglican TV. I would encourage anyone who has the means to do so as well.  The service they are providing is invaluable, and trips to Singapore are not cheap.

Yes, Rowan is “in discussion with a number of people around the world.”  It is no wonder that after he said that, any number of the bishops and archbishops were looking at each other to figure out if he had said word one to anyone in the room.  Who else could he conceivably be talking to in order to resolve the problem, if not the GS? The majority of the Primates of the Communion are represented right there in Singapore- it is condescending to the point of open insult to imply that there are people in the Communion more important to the resolution of this issue.

Rowan is living in some neverland where he thinks that if he can talk KJS out of presiding personally at the consecration, everything will be all right.

What it looks like he has succeeded in doing is moving from a state where 8 churches were in broken communion, and 13 in impaired communion with TEC and the ACoC, to a state where 20 churches are in broken communion and 10 in impaired communion (including his own CoE) with TEC, nearly that many with Canada (which at least does not go about openly insulting people’s intelligence), and probably 8-10 that could be described as in impaired communion with Canterbury.

I suppose, in a way, this is the functional equivalent of the speech he gave TEC last summer (“oh, please, please, please don’t pass those resolutions”) except he is ignoring the intervening year in which dozens of TEC dioceses have acted on those resolutions, not to mention the minor detail of the Glasspool election.

“Or he has surrendered to KJS, and this is his white flag.”

Perhaps she has threatened to depose him, too.

As I stated in my post on “T19”:

Following nearly a decade of speeches, writings, meetings, delegated committees, and responses to crisis after crisis, is there anyone here who doesn’t understand that when it comes to this ABC, “what you have been seeing is what you will continue to get.”

Were you expecting clarity in presentation? Maybe something in the way of immediate, decisive and compelling action? Possibly a move away from seeking political accommodation?  Don’t hold your breath. It’s not likely to happen.

Basic counseling theory dictates that a person’s personality is relatively fixed by their mid-20’s. I once attended a symposium where a participant asked, “So, can you give us an example of what can dynamically change personality after, say - 25?”  The presenter’s answer was swift and to the point: “A stroke!”

Of course, I believe all things are possible through God, but short of His intervention, I wouldn’t expect any changes in how +++Rowan Williams chooses to deal with the matters at hand. He is who he is and he does what he does because of who and what he is.

“Perhaps she has threatened to depose him, too.”
ROFL
Makes as much sense as any of the other explanations!
Thanks Marie!!
LOL

Pax

“Rowan simply repeated that he would be discussing possible actions with unspecified other persons in the Communion.”

“Unspecified other persons”...is that like “The Ghosts of Meetings Past” or something?

At this point, it serves no further purpose to fulminate about TEC and its actions.  Everyone now knows what they are and what they intend to do.  Far more effective would be a steady stream of primates going before a microphone and saying “I no longer have confidence in Rowan Williams’ ability to lead the Communion through this crisis.  It would serve the interest of the Communion if he would resign.”  That would fundamentally alter the nature of the crisis.  Unless and until relationships with Canterbury are threatened, nothing will ever be resolved.  The problem is not in NYC.  The problem is in England.

carl

Moribund situation with remarks that do not address it.

More likely she’s threatened to cut off the money supply, so maybe the chance of possibly losing his banker is giving him the willies.  Or on the other hand, it could be that maybe….just maybe he’s being pushed into telling her “Uh, look, Kate….I’m afraid I’ve got some rather unpalatable things to tell you…...”

And then again, yes….the problem does reside in England.

Rowan abdicated years ago…he just hasn’t realize it yet….someone else will have to show him to the door.

Well, ++Rowan’s video had so many “fade to black” moments video cuts, that it was obvious to a third grader to be scripted to manipulate. I’m not surprised well educated folks from the Global South were not fooled.

Archbishop Mouneer Anis

Let me say this clearly.  We do not need another Communion.  WE are the Communion.  Others may wish to form a new communion.

  This sounds like a shot fired across the bow of TEC.

I really do not know if he is lying or deluded. What more can be said?

Carl #11, I agree that the focus should be on Canterbury.  However, the Canterbury quagmire is partly Rowan’s leadership and partly the office itself. 
There is the possibility that a replacement for Rowan would be no improvement.  I imagine that strategic appointments have already been made to the appropriate nominating committees.
The Anglican Communion has outgrown the current ecclesiastical structure.  In a sense, this is a good problem.  Were it not for the phenomenal growth of the church in the global south, the balance of power wouldn’t be so blatantly askew. 
Would an ecclesiastical Runnymede give the global south a greater voice and serve as a buffer against the usurpation of power by a few people with an agenda, whatever that agenda might be?  Would it be possible to stay within the Communion and order one’s relationships in such a way to render Canterbury irrelevant?  Given TEC’s propensity to lie in regards to international requests (e.g. expressing regret, moratorium, gracious restraint), how could the covenant be made effective? 
I don’t know the answers to these questions, and I don’t envy the primates in discerning the next right steps.

subscribe please…
Intercessor

What could you expect when a closet RC gets to appoint the ABC. (I know, thechnically the Queen does, but we know how the system works.)  Can anyone spell disestablishment?

“There is the possibility that a replacement for Rowan would be no improvement. “

Its much more than a possibility. Rowan is tied to TEC by theology, money and politics. By the time he retires, there will be virtually no chance that a successor would be nominated and appointed that openly opposes the ordination and consecration of practicing gay Priests and Bishops. It would be politically and culturally unacceptable.

Anis speech is a little troubling for me. It reminds me of the “I am not going anywhere” statements of some insiders in TEC over the last five or so years. It only makes senses if it is accompanied by a reasonable plan to reform the Communion and discipline TEC. The only effective strategy for reforming the Communion is to indeed threaten to do what Anis and others are apparently unwilling to threaten to do—form another Communion unless the ABC is willing to compromise on issues of governance in a way that accomidates the Global South, and provides official recognition of the orthodox elements in the US.

The British government appoints the AoC. For at least several decades, the British government has been, in its actions, all too apparently anti-Christian. Heck, even the Heir Presumtive has been surprisingly unsupportive of the Anglican church (Defender of Faiths???). That the current AoC even manages (sometimes) to play at being a Christian on video is a small triumph under the circumstances. Time, place and circumstance. It will be a miracle if things with the CoE change in a direction that supports the faith. But then, ours is a faith full of miracles, so I won’t rule it out. Poor old Rowan.

#22. Going Home,
I am less troubled by the comments of Archbishop Mouneer Anis. I believe he is saying in a polite way to TEC. “You are not welcome here” and I believe TEC will eventually form its own communion. KJS is an ambitious person still building a vitae. She would love to be an archbishop.Additionally, progressive forces within TEC see the WWAC as too limiting and restrictive. To quote the prophetic Judy Tenuta, “It could happen”

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Gentleness is a virtue; so is patience.  But if the good archbishop would attend to the Old Testament, he will discover that God’s gentleness to Israel and His patience came to an end.  Sin is sin.  If I am gentle to my own sin, disaster awaits.  Frequently it is gradual disaster or seemingly “benign” disaster.  But a sorrowful day of reckoning does come.  Better to deal with it now, Dr. Williams, than continually say, “Be gentle.  Have patience.”  Sin is sin.

OK I watched it, now let me ask a question.  ++Rowan, why do you believe that Godly people would ever wish to be bound in covenant with the Witch of Endor…oops…sorry, +Katherine and the TEC?

RS Bunker

It is, perhaps, instructive to view some of the commentary from the Loyal Opposition. (For instance, http://anglicanfuture.blogspot.com/ ) I mention it because Mark Harris also opines on the utter failure of +Rowan’s address. (For very different reasons, of course.) But when both sides see the Archbishop of Canterbury’s position as an abdication of his authority, then there remains no middle ground, no place of agreement. In other words, no Communion. Obviously there have been numerous other breaking points, but this proves that what +Anis says is true. The Communion is dead; long live the Communion.

I think Fr Dale’s right on the money.  Mrs Schori would like nothing better than to be an archbishop, and it would be no stretch of the imagination to say that she wouldn’t hesitate to take TEC out of the Communion if it were within her power….which it isn’t.  That’s up to General Convention.  The structure needed for a separate Episcopal Communion is already in place within TEC, with all of their overseas jurisdictions, and all it would take is a General Convention vote to make it happen.  Will TEC vote to agree to the proposed Anglican Covenant?  Maybe, and maybe not.  If they do, they’ll only abide by it if it suits them to do so, and they’ll twist it to their advantage if they do.  Would they accept second tier status?  No.  If they refuse to accept that status, they’ll leave, and they’ll take their friends with them.  And Mrs Schori and Company will be happy.

Jill, #19,

Given TEC’s propensity to lie in regards to international requests (e.g. expressing regret, moratorium, gracious restraint), how could the covenant be made effective?

I’ll answer this one:  The covenant cannot be made effective when a lawless province already does whatever the hell it wants.

>Or he has surrendered to KJS, and this is his white flag.

>I really do not know if he is lying or deluded. What more can be said?

Oh come on!  I’ve said it before – Williams has a 100% track record of supporting KJS.

100%.

Not once, no, not ever, has he supported the orthodox over TEc.  Occasionally he has given a form of words that – if one was optimistic and squinted – looked on paper like it might, just, be positive towards the orthodox.  Then followed by a clear statement that Williams meant no support whatsoever and all the orthodox’s base belong to KJS.

He never had to surrender. He was a Quisling from the start.

Frankly I can’t credit that people somehow still think Williams’ hand is being forced or he is in anyway not culpable.

Fer crying out loud, his own writings confirm he supports the pansexual agenda!  His record – 100% form of words occasionally to the orthodox followed by total, unconditional support for TEc, even going beyond the call of duty to kill off any discipline – over years!  And still people think Williams is ‘trying to hold the communion together’ or ‘He is being pressured by KJS.’  Williams has personally made it clear he agrees with TEc!  There’s no real secret.

I mean, there is being charitable, naive even, but giving Williams the benefit of any doubt by this stage is wilfull blindness.  Talk about “Doing the same thing and expecting a diferent result.”  But now people STILL think Williams is being forced?

Hey, Williams does the same thing to achieve the same result.  Support TEc.  Why are people continuing to give Williams any doubt at this point.  He has not been incompetent. He has been a genius at keeping people from split off from TEc and the CoE who would have taken direct action a long time ago if it wasn’t for him.  In this tragedy Williams has been a decisive (yeah, I know how ironic that looks but his apparent indecision has served TEc well) factor.

Wormtongue pales in comparison.

If the GS haven’t got his number by now then there is something seriously wrong with their leaders and the whole communion is totally doomed.

Hopefully, they have figured it out by now.  But, as I say, if they haven’t then there must be something so intrinsically wrong with Anglican leadership worldwide that nothing can be salvaged.

This “defender of the faith” is anything but one, and has played the appeasement card better than any Brit since Neville Chamberlain. The Anglican faith will continue to wallow in the quagmire, brother against brother, until he is removed, and someone with a BACKBONE stands up to those who would (and to a degree has already) hijack(ed) the Anglican faith for their own political aspirations…

Live free or die…

Anyone who thinks that Blair’s incipient Catholicism was a factor in appointing Williams should look more at Blair’s other official acts and ask whether it influenced him anywhere else.

Blair’s mystagogy is incomplete in some important ways.

Jedi-
There is no question where ++Rowan is on the various issues of the church- he personally heads up Affirming Catholicism.  But in recent times he has ceded the authority of his office and willfully destroyed the structure of the Instruments of Communion, the very Instruments he called on us to put our faith in.  For all intents and purposes, the four Instruments have ceased to exist as anything other than a ceremonial function.  The Communion is under the tyranny of the Standing Committee.
That is a new development, and that is the development in which he as surrendered his own authority to TEC.
++Rowan himself is the only Primate who does not understand that he has surrendered his office to the PB of TEC.  The GS understand, and so does the PB.  Since he has destroyed the structures, TEC is now in control of the apparatus of the ACO and Standing Committee, the GS will build structures of its own along the model of the ancient church. 
In the end- if Rowan keeps following his current policy, we will have 2 churches- with separate structures, not in communion with one another (close on that already), both under the the umbrella of the Anglican Communion, perhaps both maintaining some tenuous link to the see, if not the current person, of Canterbury. One with allegiance to the Standing Committee and PB of TEC, the other the GS and its allies in N America and Australia and whatever evolves from the orthodox movements in England.  The Church of England will, no doubt, try to hold itself above the fray for a period of time, but sooner or later must decide which side it will be on.  The GS will declare the sees of N America open, and begin evangelism efforts in earnest, TEC will throw millions into liberal churches in the GS, infiltrating wherever possible (as it did in Quincy, Ft. Worth, San Joaquin and Pittsburgh, and is currently doing in Albany and S Carolina- so they have lots of practice).  The GS will rely on the truth, TEC will rely on money and lawsuits.
  Rowan is signaling that this is his desired outcome.  No doubt he assumes his personal preference- affirming catholicism, will triumph in the end, and his form of benign revisionism will sweep all the churches of the Communion.  Of course, he is wrong in this, as it is the Truth of the Gospel that will, in the end, be victorious.

>Jedi-

Yo.

>There is no question where ++Rowan is on the various issues of the church-
>he personally heads up Affirming Catholicism.

I’m not convinced.  I think he’s liberal with some orthodox leanings.  We know he has always supported the liberals in any fight.  Unless you define ‘“Affirming Catholicism” as total liberalism.

> But in recent times he has
>ceded the authority of his office and willfully destroyed the structure of
>the Instruments of Communion, the very Instruments he called on us to put
>our faith in.

Quite.  And, as you say, willfully.  So KJS can have her Empire.  I mean, he hasn’t even argued she defend such notions as the resurrection!

> For all intents and purposes, the four Instruments have
>ceased to exist as anything other than a ceremonial function. The Communion
>is under the tyranny of the Standing Committee.

Yup.  Accident?  I think not.  Where there is a power vacuum tyrants take over.

>That is a new development, and that is the development in which he as
>surrendered his own authority to TEC.

Again, I think, in a way, deliberately.  I mean, Rowan has made zero protest in this and actively assisted KJS in all her ways.

>++Rowan himself is the only Primate who does not understand that he has
>surrendered his office to the PB of TEC.

No. I think he recognises and supports.  I mean, the guy taken enough quite deliberate decisions in assisting KJS at the cost of his own standing that he must know!  Frankly, I believe Williams is a liberal who supports the liberal revolution and has operated as a Quisling to hand over the West to the likes of KJS to carry through the revolution.  Good cop/bad cop in a way.  It’s Gordon Brown stepping aside for Tony Blair. 

>The GS understand,

If they don’t by the whole Communion can just shut up shop!  I think they do have William’s number by now, at last.  If they don’t, just forget even the GS as a force if they are that blind!!!

>and so does the PB.

Oh yes.  She has him heart and soul.
Heart and soul.
He’s already proven no cost is too great for KJS and TEc to achieve their aims.  He has also shown he supports the liberals in the UK and positively invites Islam to come and take over.  The man is an utter fraud.

> Since he has destroyed the structures, TEC is now in control of the
>apparatus of the ACO and Standing Committee,

Oh yes.  Williams mission accomplished.  He now just has to see how much longer he can string the GS along, give the liberals more time to infiltrate.

>the GS will build structures
>of its own along the model of the ancient church.

Well they have to do something!  And quick!  The communion, as you say, is utterly bust.  It’s not a communion.  It’s not even an organisation.  It’s a total mess which KJS can mop up thanks to Williams.  The communion is clearly dead.  The GS now has to start up a new form of Anglicanism from scratch with no regard to Canterbury.  If it doesn’t, if it hangs onto Canterbury, there is no hope left at all.

The horse has not just been flogged to death, it’s turned to peat!!  There’s nothing left to flog!

>In the end- if Rowan keeps following his current policy,

If???!!!
A 100% hit rate for KJS supporting and we’re asking “If?”
At no point – not once, not ever, no matter what the cost to him, the CoE or the worldwide communion, has Williams ever done anything to get in the way of KJS!!  He has taken personal interest and action in exterminating all threats to KJS, obstructed the GS, wormtongued the communion and even taken political bullets for the TEc.
And we’re asking “if?” 
If people can’t see a totally KJS beholden liberal who thinks the TEC is the way forward for Christianity worldwide by now then I have this great bridge to sell them!

>we will have 2
>churches- with separate structures, not in communion with one another
>(close on that already), both under the the umbrella of the Anglican
>Communion,

If you’re lucky.  Frankly, if the GS cannot see Williams by now for what he is then even GS leadership is hopelessly confused and, frankly dim, and won’t be able to even their own domains together.  As it is, I think they have his number. I am just saying that if they haven’t it’s game over and I’ll welcome you all across the Tiber!

>perhaps both maintaining some tenuous link to the see, if not
>the current person, of Canterbury.

Not if they are smart.  Why kiss the hand that beats you?

> One with allegiance to the Standing
>Committee and PB of TEC, the other the GS and its allies in N America and
>Australia and whatever evolves from the orthodox movements in England.

Believe me, Christianity in the UK, at ever level, in every denomination is so compromised, oppressed and struggling that I do not an orthodox realignment is possible in the CoE here.  All the denominations lack critical mass here to reach any organisational solidity.  The good news is that I expect outright, Soviet style persecution will produce a thriving underground church in the next two generations.  But such churches tend not to be highly structured.  The CoE as a state Church, indeed, a recognisable entity is over.  The Anglicans here who wish to remain so will have to be underground members of a Church headed and organised in the South.

>The
>Church of England will, no doubt, try to hold itself above the fray for a
>period of time, but sooner or later must decide which side it will be on.

It will be forced by legislation to go liberal.  The official CoE will be a soviet style anti-Church. That is guaranteed.  If a lib-lab pact does not do that, the EU will.

>The GS will declare the sees of N America open, and begin evangelism
>efforts in earnest,

They’d better!

>TEC will throw millions into liberal churches in the
>GS, infiltrating wherever possible (as it did in Quincy, Ft. Worth, San
>Joaquin and Pittsburgh, and is currently doing in Albany and S Carolina- so
>they have lots of practice). The GS will rely on the truth, TEC will rely on
>money and lawsuits.

Yup.  Ditto the UK.  Lawsuits here will be welcomed and the now highly powerful secularists groups will probably assist.  I mean, the difference between the National Humanist society and KJS is wafer thin anyway.

>Rowan is signaling that this is his desired outcome.

Oh yes!

> No doubt he assumes
>his personal preference- affirming catholicism,

Read total liberalism.

> will triumph in the end,
>and his form of benign revisionism will sweep all the churches of the
>Communion.

Absolutely!  He supports KJS as he sees her as driving forward the necessary revolution.  He’s a child of the 1960’s.

> Of course, he is wrong in this, as it is the Truth of the Gospel
>that will, in the end, be victorious.

Oh yes.  Trouble is… it comes through the cross.
The UK, especially, is going to face the cross of persecution.  Many saints will come from martyrdom soon.  And Williams will have to account.

I thank God He is calling me out of it.  But I look, in a way, in sad envy of the saints to be made here.  Maybe my children can come back as missionaries.
But the CoE as it has existed for 500 years is dead.  Something else must come.  It will come, in time, from the catacombs – possibly with the help of the GS.
If not, then from two hymns sheets and a rosary,

#36. tjmcmahon,

But in recent times he has ceded the authority of his office and willfully destroyed the structure of the Instruments of Communion, the very Instruments he called on us to put our faith in.  For all intents and purposes, the four Instruments have ceased to exist as anything other than a ceremonial function.  The Communion is under the tyranny of the Standing Committee.

Stephen Noll reinforces this idea on with Anglican TV. It is a candid and insightful interview.http://www.anglican.tv/node?page=5. His comment on the two tracks is that there is no point in having them if they are leading in opposite directions. It is also obvious that the Covenant in it’s most recent form is not acceptable to Noll and probably the Global South. What are your thoughts on the Covenant?

Jedi-
My point was, that if TEC and KJS had followed +Rowan’s lead, from the time before he was ABoC, they would have had exactly what they wanted, with much less fuss, only it would have taken 20 years longer.  That was clearly his plan, it is, essentially, the goal of Affirming Catholicism- all inclusive, all the incense, Christianity-lite.  I do not like it, or agree with it, or defend it.
At the same time, it is not the plan of KJS and TEC.
He does have a problem with KJS and TEC, because, by taking precipitous action, they have spoiled his plans, and he has a growing problem now in his own CoE as a result, not to mention the GS catching on to what’s up.
He now faces the problem that he has so packed the Standing Committee and other Communion hierarchy with friends of TEC- to avoid any discipline over the last 7 years, that he is having to negotiate with them to be able to take any action at all to save face. And he really does need to do that, or, again, he will have major problems in the CoE.  The CoE will tolerate all manner of revisionism, but when you cede British authority and British prestige to an American oceanographer without a degree in oceanography (much less theology) from Cambridge or Oxford- you will have a problem in the CoE.
  So, he needs to do something if only to appear to be doing something to make it look like he still has any respect at all from anyone in the Communion.  His problem is that he is getting all the Welshmen and New Zealanders he has packed the committees with to go along with so much as a slap on the wrist for TEC, because they are on TEC’s side.
  So, he is trying to get the GS to accept the very minimal slap on the wrist the Standing Committee will go along with (and the GS will not) or, get the Standing Committee and ACO to go along with the minimum actual discipline required by the more moderate GS (and the SC and ACO will not).  Which leaves him only one real option, to actually do something as ABoC and choose to defend the historic faith, or cut himself completely off from it, and that is a choice he is trying desperately to avoid.  Clock is ticking, May 15 is right around the corner.  And that really, truly, is a deadline for him to act, whether he believes that or not.

It’s time to circulate a petition to Her Majesty the Queen as the supreme governor of the Church of England to ask the Archbishop of Canterbury to tender his resignation and step down and gather a few hundred thousand or more signatures of Anglicans—may be a million or two. I understand that if a complaint that an archbishop has been guilty of unbecoming conduct or neglect of duty is made, it isreferred to a commission appointed by the Upper House of either Convocation, and the two senior diocesan bishops of the archbishop’s province have power to temporarily suspend the archbishop. If so suspended the archbishop is disabled from discharging or exercising any of the functions or powers for the same period as a bishop similarly suspended. However, the suspension is at all times revocable by the two senior bishops. It may be time to file a complaint against the present Archbishop of Canterbury, signed by hundreds of thousands of Anglicans around the world. It would not hurt to also include a world-wide call for his resignation, also signed by hundred of thousands of Anglicans around the world. It takes only a little snow to get an avalanche started.

>Jedi-
>My point was, that if TEC and KJS had followed +Rowan’s lead, from the
>time before he was ABoC, they would have had exactly what they wanted, with
>much less fuss, only it would have taken 20 years longer. That was clearly
>his plan, it is, essentially, the goal of Affirming Catholicism- all
>inclusive, all the incense, Christianity-lite. I do not like it, or agree
>with it, or defend it.

Fair enough. But I disagree.  I hold that Williams is much, much more liberal than he appears.  He uses some orthodox language and claims to support some orthodox notions but his track record not only in supporting KJS, but also in his hissing at the orthodox when they manage to do something – anything successfully, shows his true colours.  His response to the Papal TAC rescue plan was petty, he is now snipping at the Pope, he backed off from support Jefferies John only (I gather) when the Queen stepped in, and speaks with passion (or clarity) only on liberals matters such global warming, how bad business is or how Islam should take over.  Interesting how on matters of politics or Pope sniping he is clear and intelligable.  When it comes to moral matters then he enters babble mode.  Almost as if he used babble as a tool…

Stuff Affirming Catholicism.  Williams hasn’t argued with KJS to support ANY kind of Catholicism, affirming or otherwise.  He has never, not once, ever addressed the utter elimination of anything pertaining to orthodox Christian theology in TEc.  Well, except a half hearted go at Gene when he ‘argued’ that Gene had not carried out the revolution without enough thought.  And Gene got him to effectively admit Williams agreed with him really.

Williams affirms nothing ‘catholic.’  He is true revolutionary liberal. But he is cunning and can beguile. Part wormtongue and part-Saruman.

And he has been hand in glove with the anti-Christian Government in terms of criminalising Christianity.  He didn’t have 20 years to force liberalism on Anglicanism.  The Government (and media) want the pansexual revolution now.  To be true to his beliefs Williams has to match the social revolution in the UK.  KJS is not the only one driving him.

>At the same time, it is not the plan of KJS and TEC.

Oh?  They have 100% of what they want in the US and beyond.  KJS has been seen at multiple meetings with Williams grinning from ear to ear.

>He does have a problem with KJS and TEC, because, by taking precipitous
>action, they have spoiled his plans, and he has a growing problem now in
>his own CoE as a result, not to mention the GS catching on to what’s up.

That was going to happen anyway. Williams has been masterful at keeping the GS and co at bay always promising action but never delivering.  His apparent ‘incompetence’ has, incredibly, get the orthodox guessing, wrong footed and quickly betrayed.  And STILL people think he is just trying to keep everyone together. Yeah, right.  Even now, it is possible the GS will still try and remain in communion with the CoE and with Canterbury! 

>He now faces the problem that he has so packed the Standing Committee and
>other Communion hierarchy with friends of TEC- to avoid any discipline over
>the last 7 years, that he is having to negotiate with them to be able to
>take any action at all to save face.

Save face?  Williams has been run over by TEc enough times and seems quite happy about it!  What face has he to save?  His actions speak for him!!!  Even now, he fights TEc’s corner.

>And he really does need to do that,
>or, again, he will have major problems in the CoE.

TEc has set the necessary precedent for the CoE.  Yes, he will have problems, but he has bought more and more time for the law and social liberalism to weaken the church further ad further so the problems will be less.  Williams has invited a mass of problems on his desk for supporting Tec and not once, not ever hesitated in taking them.  For the liberals, no cost is to great (even dying of AIDS and the like) for the pansexual revolution.  Hey, Williams has all but said, “Sod off!” to the angelo-Catholics and spat at Benedict for offering them haven.  Williams has no problem running over the orthodox.  None at all.  If the communion collapses it will be a prove worth paying.

>The CoE will tolerate
>all manner of revisionism, but when you cede British authority and British
>prestige to an American oceanographer without a degree in oceanography
>(much less theology) from Cambridge or Oxford- you will have a problem in
>the CoE.

What, like we have done in signing our sovereignty over to Europe?  British authority no longer exists. Indeed, I would argue very strongly that the very notion of a British identity that matches anything historically no longer exists here.  What reason I am leaving is because there is nothing remotely left of the Old England to fight for.  It’s no longer restoration. It’s rebuilding from scratch.
The CoE will fall and become the Church of the State.  Forget KJS, the EU will see to it – with the enthusiastic help of the National Government.

>So, he needs to do something if only to appear to be doing something to
>make it look like he still has any respect at all from anyone in the
>Communion.

No. He has the friends he wants.  If he wanted the likes of the orthodox as friends he would have supported them. You know, just once.

>His problem is that he is getting all the Welshmen and New
>Zealanders he has packed the committees with to go along with so much as a
>slap on the wrist for TEC, because they are on TEC’s side.

Which is fine with Williams.  Come on!!  There were countless times Williams was in prime position to gather respect from the GS and the like with zero cost to himself and he STILL, willingly, LEAPT to TEc’s side!!  Williams did not just support TEc, he has actively, independently dismantled all means of discipline of them.
Williams reaction to the thought of the Anglo-Catholics jumping to avoid being run over shows the man. 

>So, he is trying to get the GS to accept the very minimal slap on the
>wrist the Standing Committee will go along with (and the GS will not) or,
>get the Standing Committee and ACO to go along with the minimum actual
>discipline required by the more moderate GS (and the SC and ACO will not).

Here we go again… Williams is trying to so something, anything, no matter how pathetic.  No he isn’t. He’s trying to kick the can which he has done with such utter success I think even he must be saying “I can’t believe this keeps working! It’s like magic!”
If the GS split, Williams will spit on them.  But he won’t try and stop them.  He could have helped the Anglo-Catholics and he threw them to the wolves.

We have a 100% track record here!!  100%!!!

>Which leaves him only one real option, to actually do something as ABoC and
>choose to defend the historic faith, or cut himself completely off from it,
>and that is a choice he is trying desperately to avoid.

He’s made that choice.  He made it ages ago.  He’s shown that choice 100 times.
Can people really not see the nature of the man by now?!

He will not support the orthodox.  Not ever.  If the GS walks, Williams will let them.  The remnant CoE, Tec and ACC will form up and start infiltrating the South.

>Clock is ticking,

As it has before.  Same result every time. I cannot believe people are waiting on Williams to defend the historic faith.
Break already!!  He will string you guys on forever!  You’ve had 160 deadlines!  Break already!!  Declare him an anti-pope!  Become Catholic!  Demand adult Baptism and become Baptists!  Adopt the book or Mormon but DO SOMETHING!!  Do not, do NOT wait on Williams!  Not again!

>May 15 is right around the corner. And that really, truly, is a deadline
>for him to act, whether he believes that or not.

Only if the GS can really see the nature of the man.  If they do not, the whole Anglican venture really is finished. 

Lucy from Peanuts was an amateur.

With all the good movies available, why they would bother to play a video of Rowan Williams prevaricating is beyond me.  Surely they had better things to do with their time.

I don’t want to turn this into a thread about whether or not KJS wants to take TEC out of the communion.  Having said that, that’s silly.

^^^
Personally, I’m not quite sure what you are saying here.

But there is a difference between saying “I want out of the communion” and “It’s a price worth paying.”

I, personally, think it is clear KJS and Williams regard the GS walking as a price worth paying for bringing about the pansexual revolution to the Western Church.

in recent times he has ceded the authority of his office

Wrong.  Rowan has treacherously used the authority of his office to champion a false gospel and the vile agenda of the Episcopalians.

Fr. Dale (at 38)

What are your thoughts on the Covenant?

I guess I have two answers.  If you are asking me for a prediction, I do not think most GS churches will sign it until either it is amended to restore disciplinary authority to the Primates, or the JSC/SCAC is amended to be representative of the people of the Communion, and not overloaded with Westerners and Australians due to its rather peculiar and undemocratic construction.
  However, that said, if you are asking me for the proper course to follow, I think the Covenant is properly an area where submission to one’s bishops is a correct path.  I am not privileged to be in the councils of the Communion, and it is not like I have a vote- or the information to cast an informed vote.  A number of bishops (++Orombi, ++Venables, ++Anis, ++Chew and ++Gomez, among others) have done things over the last several years that have contributed greatly to the development of my own faith, and I trust their judgment implicitly.  If they accept the Covenant as is, then it is acceptable as is.  If not, we should follow their guidance on necessary changes, or the necessity of such a document at all.

Amen, and well said, tj!

So, what if the Queen told Rowan - “You WILL keep the Anglican Communion together at all costs.  It WILL NOT disintigrate on my watch!!”...

Well, #48, if that’s the case, he should have listened to her and taken some actions to discipline TEC and ACoC.  As it is, his inaction is enabling the fracturing of the Communion.

Fr. Darin Lovelace+
St. John’s Anglican
Park City UT

http://www.globalsouthanglican.org/index.php/blog/comments/light_for_the_nations_gse4_day_3_report_21st_april_2010

Note the following:

The day started with Archbishop Robert Duncan presiding at Holy Communion.

No report that anyone refused communion from “a defrocked former TEC bishop.” That pretty much settles the “who is in communion with ACNA” question, as well as “does anyone recognize the depositions by TEC” question.  This is an extraordinarily significant moment, at least to those of us on the Catholic side of Anglicanism.  I suspect it also adds considerable credence to the ACNA use of the word “Anglican.” 
  I will not speculate on whether a couple TEC bishops joined as well, given that would be a depose-able offense in TEC.  Of course, being at the conference at all is a depose-able offense in the eyes of some in TEC.
  This is what makes ACNA different from the Continuing Churches of the 70’s- I don’t remember 20 Anglican primates accepting communion from any of the Continuing bishops.
  At any rate, this old Anglo Catholic is more heartened by this one Eucharist than by anything that has happened in a long time in the Communion.  Maybe this is a sign that we are finally about the work of building up Christ’s church, once again.

#50, how would receiving communion from Abp. Duncan be a deposable offense?

Ralph,
It would be taking communion from one that TEC has ‘disciplined’ such that they can not longer ‘confect’ the elements.  You’d not be respecting the discipline of the ‘church’, and hence would have ‘renounced’ your association with those that imposed the discipline.

43.  Whether or not TEC will choose to leave the Communion is pretty much moot, since they have already in effect done so.  Either they or the rest of us (minus TEC’s fellow travelers) just need to formalize it.  I think it’s debatable whether or not they’ll accept a second tier status (if a second tier is created), and so I think they’ll set up a communion of their own.  They already have, for all intents and purposes, since they’re answerable to KJS and her General Convention Church.  Take a look at their overseas provinces and other jurisdictions and you’ll see what I mean.

how would receiving communion from Abp. Duncan be a deposable offense?

Are you kidding Ralph?  TGC’s High Priestess has an itchy trigger finger when is comes to depositions.  Sentance first! Verdict afterwards!

I see that George Conger is reporting that the reaction to this speech’s broadcast in Singapore was indeed “muted.”

Thanks, Katherine (#55).  Good catch.

I note that George Conger specifically says there was “no applause.”

Poor ++RW.  TEC has flagrantly spurned his call for “gracious restraint” in the most brazen way possible, and now it’s likely that the GS will turn a deaf ear to his appeal as well.  But after all, why in the world would anyone take him seriously??  Like the boy who creid “Wolf” in the old folktale, Cantaur’s words have proved empty and meaningless over and over.

David Handy+

#52, so you think that the official view of the TEC-PB-Fuehrerin is that the saintly Bob Duncan isn’t a bishop (or in Holy Orders) anymore? Not anywhere? And, that attending an overseas worship service at which he presides, and receiving communion from him is a violation of TEC canons?

She’s diabolical, but she’s not stupid. If she were to adopt that position and use that as grounds for deposing a bishop, that would be worse than her laying hands on yet another practicing homosexual.

Of course, she simply might not care, which appears to be the case with the Glasspool farce.

I’ll stop here, because this is getting off topic.

“Cantaur’s words have proved empty and meaningless over and over.”

As empty as the big building he oversees.

Ralph, #57, You might remember that she deposed a bishop in good standing of the C of E who had been on loan to the US. Suspect she really knows no bounds.

Ralph,
I never said it would be a good idea. Deposing ++Duncan in the first place was not a good idea (just listen to the gentle and conciliatory ++Mouneer Anis on the depositions). But, I think that once the fallout of the Glasspool consecration (also not a good idea) falls out, KJS may well use such excuses to purge TEC of the remaining orthodox priests and bishops.  You can expect that the canons will be modified at GC2012 to specifically prohibit a diocese from entering into a communion or covenant relationship with any church not approved by GC, as well.  So signing the (or “a”) Covenant if TEC does not will mean you have “abandoned the communion of this church.”

#52, so you think that the official view of the TEC-PB-Fuehrerin is that the saintly Bob Duncan isn’t a bishop (or in Holy Orders) anymore?

Since the canons mean whatever she wants them to mean, who knows what she thinks, but if you read the canon under which he was deposed, +Bob Duncan was deprived of all the privileges, sacramental and otherwise, conferred upon him in his ordinations.  So the answer to your question would appear to be, “that is exactly what TEC and the PB think.  No one else other than (maybe) Canada recognizes these depositions (even Canada, I understand, does not recognize the deposition of +Scriven), but from the TEC point of view, it is as though their ordinations never happened.  To TEC, +Bob Duncan is a layman.  If you read the texts of the TEC lawsuits, they often (not sure about always) refer to the ACNA bishop as “Mr.” and the TEC bishop as “Bishop.”
  I mean, given the Albert Chambers precedent of 30 years ago, who ever imagined that an 85 year old retired bishop would be deposed for confirming a half dozen people outside his jurisdiction at the request of an Anglican Primate.  But that is where these episcopal depositions started, as I recall.

Yep, ++Bob Duncan was “deposed of all the privileges, sacramental and otherwise, conferred upon him in his ordinations,” but ONLY as a clergyman of the Episcopal Church.  Nothing at all was said about his status as a “Bishop in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” or “The Church of God,” if I remember correctly.  We all know he was never deprived of his status in the rest of the Church catholic…..though KJS would like everyone to kowtow to her and think otherwise.  He is an infinitely better bishop than that woman could ever dream of being.

Cennydd,
I have long maintained that in the depositions, what KJS actually accomplished was to depose herself and her colleagues- God knows who the true priests and bishops are.

However, what TEC purported to do was removed those things conferred upon ++Duncan in his ordinations- in which he was made a priest and later bishop of God’s church.  The business about it only being for the Episcopal Church was invented by KJS when she deposed +Scriven- but again, READ THE CANON.  And not the recent rewrite, but the one he was deposed under.  TEC made him a bishop of the whole church, and that is what they removed in his deposition- or thought they did.  Apparently every province from Nigeria to the Church of England itself disagrees with TEC on that point.

The depositions boil down to the same circumstance as ex-communication.  Only one of the two parties has the actual capability to do it- it is merely the recognition that someone has already left the Church (capital C).  Only those in said church have any say in the matter.

Which is precisely why her words, her opinions, and her actions are absolutely null and void, and utterly without form or substance….along with her so-called “ordination.”

Well, that much we agree on Cennydd.  The TEC depositions are inherently void because our Lord did not grant KJS or anyone else the power to depose an orthodox bishop.

However, TEC still thinks it deposed him, and they are mad as hornets that no one else in the Communion takes them seriously about it.

Oooooh!  I’m quaking in my boots with fear!