I see that the Diocese of South Carolina is also using the transgender video

Whoa. Did you hear the person at the beginning:  “God doesn’t make mistakes.  God created me transgender.”  This is going to be the new line, the answer to the very reasonable question “if God didn’t make a mistake making you gay, how can you say He made a mistake making someone else transgender?”

It’s interesting to me that the very people who urge me to “live into the tension” and be comfortable with not having all the answers seem to have all the answers themselves.  Kinda similar to telling me I have to tolerate everything they think, do and feel, but they don’t have to tolerate me because I am a hater.

Must be nice to live in their universe.

Sounds like the “God don’t make no junk!” self-esteme slogans.  Even the finest of creations can be made into junk with sufficient abuse and neglect.

Yes, this video was shown to the clergy of the diocese before Bishop Lawrence left on vacation. What I heard was that this went over like a lead balloon with the clergy. I doubt it would fare much better with the laity. Now, there will be laity in this diocese for whom this is the most wonderful video about the Episcopal Church.

I could only watch a few minutes before having to close it. gross.

Not that consistency between the arguments made for actively gay ordinations and transgender ordinations matter from “God doesn’t make junk” to “God may make some serious mistakes that may require some serious surgical intervention” but it would at least be nice to have someone admit they really are just doing whatever to satisfy their emotional need to feel compassionate.

Bill2, They never will admit to such a position. The way I have heard it is something along these lines- we don’t want your compassion (say of a fellow sinner to fellow sinner) we want your affirmation. That is the difference. Affirmation is what they seek not compassion.

If God makes serious mistakes requiring “surgical intervention,”  why on earth do they want to be this god’s priests?!?!?!?!  even scarier are the youtubes along w/ the TEC one.  Little kids convinced they’re the opposite gender from their “biological” selves and parents supporting them.  If they go to TEC churches, there won’t be any mention of possible healing - which, of course, wd only be rejection of “who they are” and “how god made them.” 

It’s sad the church no longer believes in the Fall the myth of Genesis puts forth.  (The Fall is football season, I guess.)  “God made me this way.”  Do they see any brokenness in others? 

Kyrie eleison, indeed.

...it was at this point that the bishop simply said to us, I think I have crossed a bridge.

I suppose we will learn soon enough when the bishop returns from vacation.  But just what does this mean?  Unless…

I watched part of the video; I did not have the time - or the stomach - to watch it all. I daresay it was shown to let the clergy know the depths into which the Episcopal “Church” has plummeted. 

Johns Hopkins University, which pioneered sex “change” operations, stopped doing them some years ago.  They had concluded from follow- up interviews by trained personnel that it did not solve the psychological problems of those who underwent the operation; they were mixed up, confused, and sad before, and they were mixed up, confused, sad, and mutilated after.

As with schools, we need to make some provisions? Maybe job johnnies are the only way to go in churches, so everyone is treated equally.  [url=http://uafortsmith.campusreform.org/school/blog/?ID=1459]http://uafortsmith.campusreform.org/school/blog/?ID=1459 [/url]

And on and on you all talk, no God does not make mistakes, but there are genetic mix ups all the time, as I remember with compassion those born with the genital organs both male and female.  Give it up…at least the nasty talk, gender it is not a salvational issue, but your unforgiving comments become close to salvational issues I do believe.

I have given up on the Anglican church too now.because of the way you go on and on.  Enough already.  I attend a Vineyard Chuch,  a conservative/orthadox, straight Bible Teaching and Preaching Church…I miss the Mass and I do care about what happens to “my church” and her people, but to put up with all the above and then go to the Altar Rail with you?”...
Lois T. Smith   Phoenix AZ

Well, that didn’t work:    Another try
Bathroom Gate

Thanks Dr. N.  I have been aware of the brain studies of those of males, females, and transgendered.  I doubt it is a mistake of God but rather a genetic mix up…as I mentioned before/above.  Lois T. Smith Phoenix AZ

LoieMom, I believe that the condition you refer to is extremely rare.  Most sex change operations are not performed for that reason. 

What are the “unforgiving comments” which have caused you so much distress?

OOPs!  Thanks for catching that re “Nasty language” sermon…I am thinking of another thread…so sorry!  Guess I better write to them too!  

You’re right, statistically there are few folk born with both sexes’ genitals, in recent times some parents decide on surgery when these children are born, others wait on the child’s choice when they grow up.  (I haven’t seen anything about brain scans for them like there are for the transgendered.) 

In the meantime they all have difficulties figuring out where they fit in society, no matter what age they have surgery, if they even do, not all do.  There seem to be self support groups where they can ban together now and be understood be somebody, at least.  The transgendered have many of the same difficulties, but not the duplication of genitals. 

I’m only medically fascinated not educated but I do feel for folks who don’t seem to “fit into their own skin.”  I think the church, TEC and now the Anglican, have to be so very careful to delineate between who can and who cannot choose who they are…thinking now of the gays…some things will always be in question, but I tend to accept brain scans as going a long way in answering a lot of questions!  Now, about ordination, still haven’t a clue since I last wrote.  Too many people scared over too many people, tho.        Thanks again, Lois

Hi LoieMom, I’m not understanding what you’re disturbed over on this thread.

Those with chromosome disorders, mixed or ambiguous genitalia, and the like—physical disorders—are a very small percentage of the “transgendered.”

The rest are people who should—rather obviously—not be leading in a church, since they are living in a massive fantasy which is that somehow they have become a sex that they are in fact not.

Now if you’re one of those people who believe that they *should* be leaders in the church, then I understand and people can debate that.

Hi Sara…In my original Comment, #10 above, I was addressing the nasty language toward the transgendered…trouble is I was at the wrong place, I was thinking I was addressing a different article on Stand Firm.  Michael A. caught me with his comment on #13, above.  I thanked him with my #14, above.  If that was not seen as an appology to all, I’m sorry.  And I apologize for disturbing everyone on the wrong string! 

Now, to you Sara, I am going to continue to banter about whether the transgendered should or should not be leaders in the church.  First, I do not know or have an opinion on the matter at this time.  All of this since Convention is a bit much to digest.  I follow Bishop Lawrence as my guide, for a reference for you.

But I will argue that the Transgender’s “massive fantasy” has been disproven by a number of MRI brain studies.  I have no idea whether these differences are chromosonal abnormailites or DNA or genetic differences…but their brains are not like mine as female and my brother-in-law’s as a male.  That’s my argument, the church seems to be to be awfully close to counting out those who are different from themselves.  That’s why I gave up and am now at the Vineyard…we come and we go and we meet in small groups and support each other and grow in Christ and many adults are baptised every month.  Without all the hassle!  I was worn out sifting through all these groups of people who are different than me to get to get to Jesus. I understand why some folk should not be ordained, but then on the other hand…

I thought things were calming down in the Anglican Church, now this transgendered thing has come up.  So, somehow their bodies were born different than women and men.  “So what!” is about where I have gotten to.  What does that have to do with ordination?

I didn’t mean to take this off into a tangent from the original subject matter of the Transgender Video, but on the other hand, Stand Firm on Faith is probably one of the few places folks like me can have their say. 

I was the spouse of the first Charismatic student at Seabury-Western, class of ‘71…I know all about being separated, held as different, evil, from the enemy, strange, my husband not worthy of ministry let alone Ordination.  So I have fought the good fight for 47 years for the outcast, first as a Clergy wife and then many years later now as a single.  Now today, catching up on my reading after the Olympics I find myself on the side of the transgendered, they had no choice of how their brains came out of their mother’s wombs.  Check it out.  Study the Medical data…

I am happy to have further conversation privately with you if you like Sara   I think you have my email address…
Matt, what say you?      Thanks again all!

RE: “But I will argue that the Transgender’s “massive fantasy” has been disproven by a number of MRI brain studies.”

Hi LoieMom—I would expect nothing less than that those who fancy they are a different sex than their reality have very different brain scans.  That’s completely normal for people with mental illnesses—who are engaging in a massive fantasy.  If you do, for instance, a brain scan of somebody who thinks he is a horse, you would find a very different brain scan.

That’s a common issue with psychiatry—the attempt to determine “which came first”—the differences in the brain or the differences in behavior?  If for instance, while I’m sitting here typing to you, I decide to smile—my brain chemistry will change, even if I do not feel anything that makes me smile.

No, I’m afraid that differences in brain scans don’t demonstrate anything at all. All they show [in the way of evidence] is “look, this person’s brain scan is different, just as we suspected it would be.”

The same is true for men who wish to have sex with other men.

What we know is this.  Those who do not have the standard physical problems [I’ve listed some of them above and they’re a tiny percentage of the “transgendered”] have very clear chromosomal sexual identity.  The fact that they’ve decided to pretend to be otherwise—or have a mental illness that has caused them to think otherwise—does not justify enabling them in their choices or illness.

RE: “That’s my argument, the church seems to be to be awfully close to counting out those who are different from themselves.”

Nobody’s counting them out. They should be treated with compassion.  But not made leaders of the church.

RE: “I was worn out sifting through all these groups of people who are different than me to get to get to Jesus.”

I’m sorry that you have so misinterpreted the debates raging in the Church, LoieMom.  The issues are bound together into the question of “should we bless sinful behavior, once we’ve recognized that certain people are bound towards certain types of sinful acts?” along with numerous other much larger foundational Christian doctrine.

RE: “I thought things were calming down in the Anglican Church . . . “

No—they haven’t, they weren’t, and they are not.  I’m not sure why you would think that.  They are not going to calm down, since people with antithetical foundational worldviews and gospels are together in the same organization.

RE: “So I have fought the good fight for 47 years for the outcast . . . “

Well, certainly one’s past can shape one’s perceptions. But we should strive for Truth, and that often means resisting the messages of one’s past wounds and hurts or the compensations therefrom.

RE: “. . . they had no choice of how their brains came out of their mother’s wombs.”

As do none of us.  The kleptomaniac, the depressed, the gluttonous—none of them had choices as to how their brains came out.  But they do have choices about their behavior.  And the church has choices about whom to place in leadership or not.

RE: “Check it out.  Study the Medical data…”

My father is a physician.  My brother is a physician. I grew up examining Guyton’s. I think I’m pretty aware.

Our brains are rewiring themselves all the time, and our actions affect how that happens. Studies have found that those who use several hours of porn a day have a different pattern of reacting to sexual stimuli - they have trained themselves to respond only to porn and not to people.  Their brain scans are different from those who do not use porn - and different from what they used to be before using porn.  If you did a brain scan of a pro athlete and a painter, you would see different patterns of usage in the brain, with different areas being dominant - and again, they did not become athletes or painters because of their different brain pattern but their patterns changed over time.

I’ve heard the “God made me X” argument fairly often.  By that logic, however, God made me with bad eyes.  Should I not wear glasses?  On the flip side, should I not have the equal right to drive a car without corrective lenses?

There exist responses to these points, of course.  For example, if I were to drive without corrective lenses, I would pose an obvious danger to myself and others, while the *obvious* public-health danger posed by homosexual behavior is concentrated among the promiscuous subgroup—who are clearly not going to be the ones interested in contracting a same-sex marriage even if the law were to create such a category. 

That very response shows the hollowness of the “God made me X” argument in the first place, though.  I have invariably seen “God made me X” used as an argument for why homosexual behavior is OK As the glasses example shows, however, “God made me X” only works as an argument if it starts out by assuming that homosexual behavior is, in fact, OK.

Have at it folks! You sound just like most of those left in TEC…figured that would eventually happen, you are just on the Right Side of the other side now.  You sound exactly the same as they do.  Heavens!  But, does it really matter???  Lois T. Smith

This is simply astounding. First “God made me gay” and now ” God made me transgender.” This is is really impossible of comprehension. Now to disagree with this perspective is supportive of hatred and violence, as one family member testified on the video. Where is the consternation on this issues? At least one does not have to buy into “unions. as was so gracefully allowed to dissenters by GC,” but this on transgender is a law imposing equal status and value that this is to be honored, as Robinson said, as a work of the Holy Spirit. Why does this not strike everybody as far beyond acceptable?

and no. Bishop Lawrence, you did not cross a bridge on this one. TEC just hauled ass over one en masse and it leaves one wondering how coherence is to be found as any workable platform.

Lois, you might find the following helpful: http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/02/surgical-sex—35

“you are just on the Right Side of the other side now.”

Don’t you think you are right? What’s wrong with that?

“But, does it really matter???”

What do you think the duties of a priest consist of? Have you read the pastoral epistles? If moral instruction and moral living “matter”, don’t you think that people making the decision to mutilate themselves out of sexual desire has some bearing on their ability to fulfill those 2 requirements? As Sarah stated above “Nobody’s counting them out. They should be treated with compassion.  But not made leaders of the church.”

RE: “Have at it folks!”

Thanks—we’ll continue to discuss ideas over here, LoieMom, and also state what we believe.

RE: “You sound just like most of those left in TEC…”

Uh.  Most of us *are* still in TEC. 

RE: ” . . . you are just on the Right Side of the other side now.”

Uh.  I have no idea what that means. When you’re resisting heresy and sinful behavior you’re usually on the right side.

RE: “But, does it really matter???”

Well—we’re not nihilists over here.  And look—it mattered enough to *you* to come over here and make wild unfounded and unconnected assertions.

So it’s clear that it matters to all of us—some to disagree and others not.

Lois here, again…

Thank you for the comments and links in comment #23 above.  I find the last paragraph of the document in that link to be of particular help.  The author states, in relation to the transgendered, and others with like difficulties,

“We have wasted scientific and technical resources and damaged our professional credibility by collaborating with madness rather than trying to study, cure, and ultimately prevent it.” 

I see that my words never make much sense to the rest of you reading here…I think the above quote is what I am trying to say about us Church folk.  I agree that folks who have lifelong difficulties “fitting into their own skin” - and I would include gays and transgendered…along with many general John and Jane Q. Publics - should not stand for Ordination.  For many different reasons, some but not all being related to sin.  (And yes, I’m fully aware of what Deacon’s and Priests and Bishops responsibilities are.)

I brought the subject up at dinner last night, and was of course initially misunderstood, but that conversation did bring me around to where I would like to be with you all… especially you, Sarah, as I have followed you without disagreement for so many years. 

After taking me to the woodshed as you all have, my companion finally understood what I am looking for and had words for me to help explain myself.  Which is to say, I long to have the Church of my whole life be accepting of all people as they come in the door…to hold on to the beliefs you are all trying to get me to understand which I have understood since I was a teenager…a church who stands her ground on those beliefs, which I have also done throughout my life.  And now, here is the part I have trouble explaining to you all,  I long for the church to understand herself as the psychiatrist above describes his own profession. - and in closing to paraphrase, without meaning or intending any further argument on my part I’ll try to make his words, printed above, my own:

“I/We have wasted time not learning and using the scientific, technical and spiritual resources available to us.  And in so doing I/we have damaged my/our own church family’s credibility by collaborating with my/our own madness toward others who don’t even feel as though they fit into their own skin, let alone my church’s skin.”  As I as rework the words I think that this church is the Church Triumphant, and that we won’t quite get there in this life no matter how we try. 

I knew a lady who would come by the church for emotional/counseling/at-a-loss -for-words-here type of support once in a while…she would talk to our Priest (my spouse) and just barely to me.  She liked me greeting her quietly, after a while she would let me touch her hand on the car door frame..but she never came to a service because she was sure she wouldn’t be accepted even tho I assured her no one would know of any of her difficulty and that she would be welcomed very warmly.  I’ve never forgotten her, still pray for her, knowing there are others out there still.  And so it is difficult for me to think of them while we in the church go on and on year after year so sure of our righteousness.  And again, I know we will never get “there” in this life…but that is what I long for.                              Please excuse any typos, thanks!

After I hit “send” last night I began to see the holes in my #25 comments.  Then this AM I wrote a piece and promptly lost the whole thing by going to another screen for a moment…do we have “save” on these comments?

I believe we will begin to become a Truly Welcoming Church when we go back to the beginning…correct the wrong turn our forefathers (male and female)...we also don’t seem to have a spell check here?   To continue…with an idea I have had since being a teenager in a huge youth group, Class of ‘62!, in a fantastic Episcopal Church, St. Marks, Glendale CA.

Let’s begin by starting with our Bishops.  I believe that the Bishop, if he is married at all, should be the male husband of one female wife.  And so let us sweep our church clean of all “other” Bishops.  And then sweep ourselves clear of all the leaders who have not held us to this Biblical standard.  And let’s not grandfather anyone in, otherwise we lose the whole point of the exercise.

Next (if I have this in the right order) we can sort through our Priests and Deacons, again remember, no grandfathering.  I do not believe we should ordain any who would later “not qualify” for Consecration as a Bishop.  That would be like electing a Vice President in the USA who does not legally qualify to be the President because he/she is not a citizen born in the USA.  One would ask, “What’s the point of even starting down that road?”  We see that as Americans, why don’t we see the same in our church?

And yes, I have and continue to believe my former Priest husband should have been held to this biblical standard.  And at the very same time, all these years I have and will continue to value his still ordained and still active ministry as highly as anyone could.  Part of my not yet being in the Church Triumphant.  I accept this in myself and so I also accept that I am not welcoming to all in my church family.  I don’t pretend that I am welcoming to all, because I belong to an organization that is two faced: we have one? homosexual bishop/s who have been formerly married to (at least one-can’t remember here) biological female wife.

To continue on, next we must sweep through all Diocesan Institutions, Vesterys, and Bishops’ Committees.  How about the Youth Leaders?

How far should we take this back???  We would empty our churches wouldn’t we.  I have been “biblically smart enough” since those early teen days watching the church function to know I dare not take a leadership position in the church since my separation and then divorce.  I’ve not even been the leader of a table discussion since then.  It really is not hard to say, “No, but thank you for asking” and then give a short sentence or to as to my reason for refusing.  People are usually amazed.)

Realize here, please, that as teens we at St. Mark’s , Glendale, Class of ‘62! witnessed this “confusion in leadership” as youth group members and accepted it as we were taught to by example.  No discussion otherwise except during bible studies where the subject was just left hanging in the air.  It still hanging there today for all of our teens and members and those not qualified for ordination to see.  We are two faced:  to pretend otherwise is a lie, plain and simple.  Not at all hard to see and understand, especially by our youth.  We adults in the church are the only ones who don’t acknowledge it.  There are a few of us but we are far between.  Two faced people lie.
 
So, when we,  TEC, Anglican, or “other” begin to practice what we say we believe, then, and only then, will be be a Welcoming Church to all who “do not qualify for Ordination.”  We can’t take some of them and not all of them, it does not work that way.  To say otherwise means we continue to build our own generation’s Tower of Babel.

Back to the video—it was very disturbing for a number of reasons.  A bishop (whose name I have managed to block) made a comment about there being a “huge” number transgendered folk and the church needing to welcome and fully include them.  What percentage of the population are we talkign about here? And then, there was the parade of terribly sad and confused folks.  The overall impression I had, though, was that of terrible pain and darkness and *this* is what we are being compelled to welcome into leadership positions in the Episcopal church?  The sexual permissiveness of the 60’s has come home to roost.  What a mistake the church has made by not taking seriously the explosive power of human sexuality.  We have been letting children play with dynamite and it is no wonder things are blowing up all over the place.