‘Don’t Punch Sick People…Unless It’s the Lord’

Please don’t judge all charismatics/continualists on the basis of bad apples like Todd Bentley.

I’m curious if this interview was conducted before or after the so-called “Lakeland Revival” was curtailed by Bentley’s adultery scandal.

Authenticity by Thomas Dubay springs to mind.  But it’s been in my mind a lot lately.

#1, Bentley has been fully “restored”. He’s at it again as if nothing happened, so the interview could well be recent. He was recently denied a visa to England. Maybe he offered to “heal” Rowan of indecision, and they got nervous.

No accountability, no verifiability. Even Rome has a process to verify miracles. But it’s a free country. All we can do is warn people about him. Another charismatic Stan Tyra claimed that during a recent meeting with Bentley, Bentley anointed him with the spirit of Thor. Just absurd.

Matt - have you ever experienced a miracle of God?  Serious question. 

I manage our e-mail prayer chain for my church (a non-charismatic one at that).  We have over 70 people praying.  We are seeing people healed.  Not everyone, but some amazing healing and answers to prayer.  So much so that we have people asking our congregation to pray for them and they don’t even go to our church.  Two of pancreatic cancer, several of cancer - sometimes the doctor can’t hasn’t been able to find it again and is dumbfounded.  Have you experienced similar things?

Please do hold Todd up to the light of Scripture, but be careful not to judge the Holy Spirit by Todd’s actions. 

Thanks again to Sarah for the discernment thread.

Peace to you.

Can’t help but think “rub a dub dub, two men in a tub” when I see that video.

My non-charismatic/reformed Presbyterian church had three healing services this morning, to pray for whomever showed up and wanted prayer for healing.  As an elder, I was paired with an associate pastor to pray for people.  The rest of the elders, pastors, and prayer team (many of whom are doctors or nurses) also prayed with people seeking healing.  Have we had miraculous healings?  Yes, although it is almost never as dramatic as what you see on TV, and not everyone is healed although almost all say they have been blessed by having people pray for them.  But we have seen people healed from cancer, polio, deafness, and other illnesses and conditions. 

Why do we do it?  Because Scripture says we should.  Whether and when people are healed is not up to us, it is up to the Holy Spirit and God’s sovereignty.  But we pray for healing because Jesus and the Apostles told us to do so, and we have faith that God will then use His Holy Spirit to heal in some way the people we are praying for, although it may be in a different way than the symptoms that are manifesting themselves.  In other words, if someone has a stomach pain, it may not be physical but a manifestation of anxiety or other mental or spiritual conditions in that person’s life, and God can work to heal those as well—but that may be a process that takes time, and doesn’t get resolved instantly.

And yes, Lakeland 2, as part of the sermon this morning our senior pastor showed images of x-ray scans of someone who had advanced and untreatable bone cancer (actually lung cancer that had spread to the bones), before and after a period of 12 months of people in the church praying for her.  The first set showed the cancer in almost all of her bones.  The second set of scans showed that the malignancy was almost totally gone.  The case was declared to be unexplainable by the non-Christian oncologist treating her at the time.  The person in question was the pastor’s mother, and although the cancer eventually returned, she ended up living 4 years longer than had been predicted by the doctors.  That, along with a couple of other miraculous healings he witnessed in other churches, motivated our senior pastor to encourage us to start a healing ministry at our church.

If you don’t have a healing ministry in your church, I would highly recommend beginning one.  A good place to start are materials by Francis and Judith MacNutt.

Agree, Jim.  MacNutts are a wonderful resource.

Plenty of charismatics have been critical of excesses in the movement, including Dan Edelen, who convenes the Cerulean Sanctum blog, and Lee Grady, author of the “Fire In My Bones column” at Charisma’s web site.

I agree the MacNutts are a wonderful resource for those interested in healing ministry, as is Mark Pearson.

Hi Lakeland Two:

“Matt - have you ever experienced a miracle of God?  Serious question.”

Sure. My conversion. I see such miracles all the time. God raises spiritual dead people to spiritual life.

I’ve also seen a lot of faux miraculous healings and “prophesies”

“I manage our e-mail prayer chain for my church (a non-charismatic one at that).  We have over 70 people praying.”

Great.

“We are seeing people healed.”

No doubt.

“Not everyone, but some amazing healing and answers to prayer.”

Yes, God does that.

“So much so that we have people asking our congregation to pray for them and they don’t even go to our church.”

Good.

“Two of pancreatic cancer, several of cancer - sometimes the doctor can’t hasn’t been able to find it again and is dumbfounded.  Have you experienced similar things?”

I’ve never had cancer but I have known people God has healed.

To say God can heal disease and he uses prayer to do it, however, is different than the actual gift of healing that we see in the NT where Peter Paul and the other apostles, for example, raised the dead.

I’ve seen lots of people who claim to have the gift of healing pray for people—but I’ve never seen or heard verified the restoration of limbs, raising of the dead, healing of people born blind etc.

“Please do hold Todd up to the light of Scripture, but be careful not to judge the Holy Spirit by Todd’s actions.”

Why on earth would you say such a thing. The point of the post is that Bentley has nothing at all to do with the Holy Spirit

I will say one thing for Mr. Bentley’s approach.  I am now fully recovered from the shock of learning that St. Nicholas once punched Arius in the face.  But not because I think it’s a good idea to physically assault people who are in need of healing.

Not usually, anyway.  Arius doesn’t seem to have benefited much from the good saint’s efforts on his behalf, but I’m wondering what would happen if jolly old St. Nick could get Todd into a healing line and take it from there.

Mr. Bentley would hardly be in a position to complain about his methods and the expression “having some sense knocked into him” must surely be based on practical experience, however infrequently that might occur.

And I do believe in healings of a miraculous nature, especially when a true saint is involved.  By way of an alternative, I suppose the most we can do is pray for the poor man’s restoration to sanity and hope for the best.  That, and stay as far away as possible from any church that would be willing to give him a platform.

Matt—I think the problem is that Satan always tries to do his utmost to confuse people by putting forth a counterfeit for the real thing.  Thus, you see mainline churches that have turned God’s command to care for the orphans and widows into becoming secular progressive political action clubs; you see churches that have changed the truth that God answers prayer into the “Word of Faith” and “Name It-Claim It” movements; you see churches that have turned the truth that God will bless those who follow Him into the “Prosperity Gospel,” and so on.

The same with healing.  The biggest obstacle we face in our church regarding prayer and healing is to convince and show people it is not like the charlatan televangelists they see on TV.  And I have to admit that for me, that is still somewhat of an obstacle as is the charismatic movement in general.  Not that I don’t question that God can heal if He wishes, or that He still can confer other gifts of the Spirit, but like you I’ve seen a lot of abuses of that.  In some unhealthy charismatic churches, I think it is very easy for someone to become manipulative and abusive of other people by claiming that they have a special “gift” that allows them to claim that God is specially speaking through them and giving them some new special revelation, or for a church to take a position that people are not real Christians if they don’t “speak in tongues,” etc.  A lot of that in my opinion is phony, and as a result over time the whole church will become phony.  (As an elder, I don’t want to see that happen in my church, and my ears perk up if I ever hear someone try to talk about gifts as being something special or being used for purposes not strictly in accordance with Scripture.)

I think the way to deal with that is to realize the Holy Spirit, if He’s really present, does not ever work in a chaotic, hurtful, divisive or manipulative manner.  (I think Nicky Gumbel covers this in one of his Alpha lectures.)  As St. Paul puts it in First Corinthians, with the Spirit “all things should be done decently and in order” (I Cor. 14).  Thus, the Spirit is not going to send you a “word of knowledge” telling you to punch someone in the stomach who has cancer.

I think Jesus summed it up best when he commanded, “Go and tell NO ONE.”

Matt:

Much I could say but not without you taking it the wrong way.  As you did my point about God using a prayer chain.  I know you’re not clueless.

“Why on earth would you say such a thing. The point of the post is that Bentley has nothing at all to do with the Holy Spirit.”

Simply - your caption below the photo implies a different idea:

“Watching this clip, I find myself edging oh so close to cessationism.”

Hmmm.  I thought cessationism is related to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. 

The point of the post?  What is it?  What is your take on it?  What, as a priest, would you offer as correction/prevention.  These things are lacking.  As I’ve mentioned on prior multiple anti-charismatic posts (even ones not mentioning Bentley), just attacking it does nothing for the Christian community.

This is my last attempt to get that point across.  It’s your blog.  I’m outta here.

RE: “The point of the post?  What is it?”

I can’t speak for Matt, but I had thought it was to show the horrible dangers of getting theology entirely wrong.  Kind of like how we post—often without much comment at all—ridiculous things that TEC heretics say and do.

It does seem clear to me that in the case of quite a few segments of the charismatic Christian group as a whole, some extraordinarily false beliefs are prevalent.

It is hard for me to say what might be a correction/prevention for someone like Bentley, other than “don’t be a fool” which is hardly helpful.

It seems like those who have followed and supported and adulated him in the past—including some Anglicans—have something immensely wrong with their worldview regarding the actions of the Holy Spirit, as well as something wrong emotionally and psychologically—some kind of bizarre need for exhibitionism, extravagant public expression, and narcissistic attention, which they value and admire.

But again—i don’t know how one can recommend psychological help for thousands of followers and think that helpful, so I am at a loss.

Also, I don’t think that Matt’s post is “anti-charismatic”—otherwise he might have chosen to post something about hand-waving or tambourine playing—something more innocuous.  Rather, Matt seems to post and point to ridiculous examples of charismatic expression that, regrettably, many far calmer charismatics have taken to their hearts in acceptance and respect. I think of the fad at one time for barking and clucking like a chicken some years ago, for instance.

And finally, I do think that posting these horrible examples of the end-results of faulty theology and mental illness does something for the Christian community—the same thing that posting horrible revisionist examples does for the Christian community.

As the old “demotivational poster” says, sometimes one’s main purpose is to serve as a bad example for others.

PS: I don’t know about Matt but for the record I’m not a cessationist.

I don’t know.

Somehow we’ve gone from mocking a wild man who brags about punching a man with both cancer and broken bones, to asserting that Christians, and perhaps specifically Christian healers, must confine themselves to gentlemanly and/or ladylike behavior and moderate, prayerbook theology to be deemed, well, acceptable to our sight.

Jesus was neither gentlemanly, nor did he confine his theology to the rules of the day.  In fact, he continuously outraged those around him.  (See specifically reference to his death.)

Outrageousness is not a disqualification for either Christianity nor healing.  But the blatant disrespect of a wounded man is.  And setting oneself up as the healer, as opposed to God, is.  And exhibiting absolutely no inclination or ability to discern spiritual guidance is.

As to me, I’ve been working up for weeks now the courage to write about the time when I was the means, the hands, of a miraculous healing.  And how that experience (and its story) pretty near ruined *my* life.  Go figure.

“I will say one thing for Mr. Bentley’s approach.  I am now fully recovered from the shock of learning that St. Nicholas once punched Arius in the face.  But not because I think it’s a good idea to physically assault people who are in need of healing.”

good point

I’m not yet a cessationist…I am leaning in that direction. One of the things that gets to me - apart from bat-dropping craziness Sarah to which referred above (the barking, gold-dust from the sky, punching, holyghostbartender stuff) -  is the lack of real miracles of the sort Jesus and the apostles and, apparently, the first century Christians with the gift of healing performed.

If Jesus’ promise that we (the church) “would do greater things than these” applies to his miraculous works of healing and deliverance etc…then why do we not see medically verified examples of restoration of limbs, raising of the dead (after 4 days of decomposition), healing of people born blind? I believe, of course, that God can do all of these things but I’ve not seen anyone who claims to have the New Testament gift of healing do them. Nor have I seen anyone walk on water, change water to wine, calm storms, etc…if the “greater” things refer to miracles as almost all charismatics believe they do, you would think we would see just these sorts of miracles occurring.

RE: “Somehow we’ve gone from mocking a wild man . . . “

And the thousands of his followers—don’t forget them.  ; > )

But I don’t see any mockery here, to be clear. 

RE: “if the “greater” things refer to miracles as almost all charismatics believe they do . . . “

Hey Matt—I’m not confident though that all charismatics do refer to that verse as referring to miracles. Most of the charismatics I know believe that the “greater things” are regarding the stunning works of Christ in salvation and also of sanctification of His people.  It’s far greater—to me—that a Christian monk gave up his life in starvation in a Nazi concentration camp for another man’s life—than changing water into wine. God is accomplishing great things in very feeble vessels, and that’s what I see as the “greater things” that that verse refers to, not “do something miraculous that’s even greater than restoring limbs—and on national television too!”

BUT . . . I also believe in the reality of miracles too, including speaking in tongues and various other commonly named charismatic gifts.  I just don’t happen to believe that most of the supposed *expressions* of those things, particularly in the US, are the same things as Scripture’s.  ; > )

For example, I’m very comfortable with the “prayer language” that some charismatics use and name “talking in tongues”—but I don’t think that’s talking in tongues by a long shot. I simply think it a “prayer language.”  I’m *not* comfortable with some older woman with big hair who desperately needs public attention standing up and announcing her rambling, “words of prophecy” to the captured congregation—which mostly happen to be strung together Scripture and aphorisms.  And I also don’t think that’s the prophetic gift that the New Testament speaks of either. I simply think she wanted to get something off her chest in a public gathering and she’s titling it “prophecy” so that people are forced to give her words some credibility.  If she weren’t calling it “prophetic God-given words” I’d be fine with it as a culture that some congregations have to allow people to stand up and get things of their chests in the assembled gathering.  It’s not the kind of congregation I want to be a part of—but different strokes for different folks, sometimes people quite *like* to be a part of congregations like that.

I do think that miracles and tongues and prophecy occur—including things like healing of people born blind. I just don’t think they generally happen on national television or even get much publicity. I think they are *for* the people of that context and that community and if they get lots of press and attention, they’re probably not real or valid, since the only point of a healing, from a salvation standpoint, is the demonstration to particular people of God’s mastery over nature and His grace.

Nothing of the sort is being demonstrated on national television. The demonstrations are of the person’s special magical powers so that he or she can get more attention and money.

So all of those are discounted in my book.

No—I think that in various small places and times, God says “enough of this” and His power is demonstrated in an amazing way, and the people believe.

In my own life I’ve experienced or seen no miracles as listed in Scripture at all. But boy, could I share some amazing experiences that I saw and heard with my own five senses that caused me to believe.

Just to name one rather striking one that has haunted me forever . . . when I did a month in a primitive survival school down in Southern Utah, some of our last days were spent doing a five day “solo”—simply taking a patch of land and living alone for five days. I had determined that I would use my five days for some spiritual disciplines and other effort, including prayer.

And that’s what I did.  Things proceeded along—but I spent probably the more intense time of my life in that effort [and afterwards they had a sweat lodge for us, which was, boy oh boy, another time for me to demonstrate what I’d learned and how I’d grown, but that’s another story].

The one fly in the ointment was that I was really struggling to sleep at night.  For one thing, all I had was a poncho which I slept under.  But I felt pretty naked out there at night with bears and such wandering around and rather nervous.

One night I was so miserably awake that I prayed and prayed that God would help me sleep.

When I awoke the next morning and felt the sun on my face, I lay there in such peace, so grateful to have slept—and listening to some wonderful amazing music.  It was beyond anything that I could describe, and I at first—for a split second—wondered what on earth all of this was doing out in the desert before I realized that it was heaven’s music.

It was no dream. I lay there listening to the music . . . and knew that when I opened my eyes, it would go away.  I just thanked God.

I knew it was a gift, and to open my eyes and hear it all fade away and to know that I would not hear it again on earth—well, it was a transforming time.

“And I believed and I loved Him.”

It’s not for *others* to believe to hear me share that story. It’s for me to believe. I don’t discount it and say “such things don’t happen.” I fully believe that God will do whatever He decides to do to demonstrate His mastery and love to those whom He is pursuing—and if a miracle is required, then so be it.

Honestly, though—to move to another topic related to this post—we’re all such natural, scientistic materialists [in the religious sense of that word] here in America that if miracles were to be performed, they would be discounted anyway.  And so a few that are left who long for something beyond their material world are pawned off with the cheap tawdry displays that you loathe so much.

I do think that you’re not going to choose to be a cessationist based on those tawdry displays though.  After all, I could post some demonstrations of hyper-Calvinism—in all of their grim, narrow, joyless, soot-filled, scientistic, dessicated lives—that would be quite as repellent as Bentley too [only in another way]. 

And then say “I find myself edging oh so close towards Arminianism.”  ; > )

But somehow God has protected me from that choice, even though I am not as Truly Reformed as thou.

Hi Sarah,

I am right now presently engaged with a whole gaggle of people on my facebook page who are persuaded that the “greater things than these” applies directly to miraculous acts…and it is commonly a text I hear charismatics refer too in sermons and in conversation so, while anecdotal, I don’t think it as rare as you suggest that charismatics pen a lot of their theology on that promise.

But I definitely agree with the interpretation of that text you provide. 

Secondly, I did want to be sure to distinguish between God using prayer to heal people and the gift of healing as I think charismatics understand it.

I have no doubt God can and does use prayer to miraculously heal people today. I’ve seen it and know it to be true.

I’m not yet a cessationist but I don’t know of too many cessationists who would disagree that this happens all the time. God uses prayer powerfully no doubt. That’s why we’re told to pray for the sick and annoint them in James 5. 

The question is whether the NT gift of “healing"is still given to specific people who in a special way possess this power. That’s where I tend to want to get off the bus.

Matt - can’t get at fb where I am right now, but hang in there with that thread. 

The diminution of the work of the Spirit by those who limit “greater things than these” to miraculous signs bugs me.

It bugs me because it postures us as waiting for Jesus to prove himself over and over again, when in fact his promise has been kept and is being kept in all kinds of ways.

In 33 years of earthly life in the flesh, 3 years of preaching ministry and 3 hours on the cross,

Jesus never maintained the marriage bed or trained up children - he gave and gives that to his people to carry out over decades and generations.  And those who observe celibacy may have to endure for many more years, in the face of a porno-ized culture and other temptations.  Greater things done.

He suffered terribly but gave it to many more of his followers to spend years in prison camps, with regular beatings and torture.  He gave it to others to endure life long chronic illnesses while maintaining testimony to him.  Greater things done.

We know he wrote in the dust one time - he gave it to the New Testament writers to maintain and spread his Good News in a way he never did. Greater things done.

He preached to thousands - there have been subsequent preachers who reached millions in his name.  Greater things done.

Raising the dead?  We share in that very work when we preach the word of eternal life and baptize people of every race, tribe, tongue and nation into it.  Been going on for two milennia.  Greater things done.

The list can go on and on.  Great leaders do not limit or hoard success, but invest their followers with the power to go out and expand it.  The head of the church is at the right hand of the Father, intereceding for us at all times so that we are liberated from our sin and temptations in order to glorify God in the power of the Spirit. 

I’m not a cessationist, and I believe that sign gifts reside in the church, as in 2 Corinthians 12.  Whether or not certain sign gifts, such as healing, are permanently assigned to particular individuals is certainly a point of debate.  I lean toward the idea that the sign gifts are demonstrations of divine power for evangelistic impact.  Thus God’s purpose might not be best served by an identified “healer” who would take the focus away from God.  Better to have the message out that “That church over there heals with prayer” than “I follow Pastor Tim’s Healing Ministry.”

Here’s a link to the sermon our senior pastor preached on healing prayer this past Sunday, at our healing service:

  http://fpchawaii.posterous.com/sermon-the-good-samaritan 

I don’t think you’re going to find anything he says wacky—we’re pretty much a middle of the road Presbyterian church, although as the denomination gets more and more liberal, we look more and more conservative by comparison.

“The question is whether the NT gift of “healing"is still given to specific people who in a special way possess this power. That’s where I tend to want to get off the bus.”

There is also the issue of whether the “gift of healing” was totally under the control of those who had it.  Many charismatics leaders teach, in essence, that if sufficient faith is present in the person needing healing and the person with the gift, that healing will happen. 

But this does not gel with the Apostle Paul telling us: “Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.” [2 Timothy 4:20]  That indicates that even those with the “gift of healing” (in spades - Paul was even used of God to raise the dead) cannot just turn on the gift like opening a faucet.  The Lord can heal someone through the gift of another person or without any intermediary at all - but whether He chooses to do so in any particular case is a matter for His own sovereign will.

Matt: 
A few years back, I had a similar question about the miraculous gifts, and I had someone (who I believe may have the NT gift of prophecy, and she herself is very charismatic) explain it to me this way:  “Beware of those who claim those who claim to have the more miraculous spiritual gifts.  Those who truly have them have a corresponding degree of humility and would be scandalized at the thought drawing any attention to themselves.  They would never talk about such things.  Run away from those who are trying to make claims about their spiritual gifts. ”  A different friend of mine (whom I also believe has the gift of tongues and also prophecy) has a depth of humility I find baffling, just beyond description.  Most Christian people do not have the level of humility to handle the more miraculous gifts (Dallas Willard addresses this a bit in the Divine Conspiracy, where he believes God would pour these miraculous gifts out in abundance as soon as we have the humility to handle them. I know I certainly don’t). 

An interesting story: some friends of mine, not cessationist, but not openly charismatic either, have a young daughter.  She came to them (I believe she was ~6 years old at the time) one day “I talk to God in a different language.  Is that OK?”  She had no previous exposure to such things, and her parents (being biblically rooted, recognized it for what it was) said “Yeah, thats fine,” pretty bewildered by the whole thing.

Actually, my understanding is that making up other languages to engage in conversation is pretty normal for many kids.

I don’t think that’s a sign of a gift of tongues.  Just a sign that she’s talking to God which is great.

BTW, she still does talk to God “in a different language” as far as I know, and she’s in her young teens now.

Understood, timmysdaman—as I said earlier in the thread:

“For example, I’m very comfortable with the “prayer language” that some charismatics use and name “talking in tongues”—but I don’t think that’s talking in tongues by a long shot. I simply think it a “prayer language.”