March 29, 2017

March 19, 2013

St. Joseph’s Day desecration #3

Think I’ll stop after this one.  I’m finding the need to refrain from overdosing on bad news.

Columnist DeWayne Wickham exults in Sen. Portman’s (R-OH) conversion to gay marriage advocacy:

Portman — at least in this matter — is neither [an evolving caveman nor a traitor to the GOP]. Nor is he a victory of the left wing’s power of persuasion. More than anything else, I think, Portman is a father who was confronted with the dueling commitments to faith and family — a man challenged by a tortured commitment to political ideology and the love of a son. In the end, he chose family and son over faith and ideology.

Got that?  “Faith and ideology.  Torture.”  But “marriage equality,” with all of the pc jargon, decades of political manipulation and media propaganda - that’s just family love.

To which the Son of the Most High, raised in earthly kid-flesh by Joseph, responds,

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”  (Mark 3:31-35 ESV)

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The quote from Mark reminds us of St. Joseph’s other earthly responsibility - to provide Jesus with siblings.

[1] Posted by Ralph on 3-19-2013 at 10:09 AM · [top]

Ralph, what are you?  Some kind of breeder advocate?  Doesn’t our Mother Gaia already groan in pain under too many harsh human footfalls?

[2] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 3-19-2013 at 10:13 AM · [top]

It’s hopeless. No one cares about objective truth, or morality based on scripture, or even plain ordinary human decency. All that matters is one’s personal wants and needs. The Senator’s son is gay; therefore he’s in favor of gay marriage. You hear that sort of thing so often. Someone has a homosexual son or brother or nephew or whatever, and that makes same-sex marriage okay. Someone has a daughter or sister or whatever with an unwanted pregnancy; so abortion is okay. Everything is relative. Of course, in the case of a politician, he’s also always thinking of what’s most likely to get him re-elected. I’m beginning to think that very few people really care about what Jesus has to say about things. The important thing is not to offend anyone - except, of course, those who really do care about what God has t o say.

[3] Posted by Nellie on 3-19-2013 at 10:13 AM · [top]

What else would you expect from someone in the United Methodist Church.  Here’s their latest tortured foray into equal rights for gays - ;

a congregation in Winston-Salem, NC that has refused to allow marriages in their church until gay couples can be wed there.

I would like to see the learned folks at SF start a theological discussion thread of God’s view of equality, and how it differs from the earthly, corrupted version of “equal rights.”  I ask for such a thread for partly selfish reasons.  I want some apologetical ammunition for my mainstream Protestant friends who say that God’s love trumps all and his mercy will, of course, extend to committed gay couples who wish only to solemnize their life long commitment to each other through a church marriage.

[4] Posted by Daniel on 3-19-2013 at 10:16 AM · [top]

Nellie, you make a good point.  The reason opposition to gay marriage is incoherent in the public square is that the culture has adopted the “personal satsifacation, happiness and fulfillment” standard.  As I’ve argued before, gay marriage is a symptom rather than the genesis of a much larger problem.

I agree with you about the culture being a lost cause.  But our witness continues as the true counterculture, embassies of the Kingdom of God.  “Preach in season and out,” Paul told Timothy; “Whether they listen or refuse,” God told Ezekiel.  So don’t despair.  God has honored us to be his witnesses in a pagan setting.

[5] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 3-19-2013 at 10:22 AM · [top]

Daniel #4, I admire your desire to learn and grow as a Christian apologist, but be warned that your mainstream Prot friends will not listen to the kind of reason you put forth.  It would require them to buy the assumption that the Bible, rather than their feelings, contains all things necessary to salvation.

They don’t believe that.  They are chaplains to the culture, in which personal pleasure is the highest virtue and goal.  God, for them, is a symbol to help express their feelings in a “spiritual” way.

So really, all we can do is speak the truth.  As Jesus said, “The seed is the word of God.”  Much of it will land in unfruitful settings - spread it just the same.  And some will land on fruitful soil.

[6] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 3-19-2013 at 10:31 AM · [top]

But our witness continues as the true counterculture, embassies of the Kingdom of God.  “Preach in season and out,” Paul told Timothy; “Whether they listen or refuse,” God told Ezekiel.  So don’t despair.  God has honored us to be his witnesses in a pagan setting.

Thank you for the reminder, Timothy Fountain - I needed that!

[7] Posted by Nellie on 3-19-2013 at 10:43 AM · [top]

And so the Senator simply confesses that he has no principles, just “if it feels good (or will get me re-elected) do it!” Shame on him.
desert padre

[8] Posted by desertpadre on 3-19-2013 at 12:25 PM · [top]

I believe it was Alistair Crowley, the Satanist, who said “Do what you will is the whole of the law.”

[9] Posted by Nellie on 3-19-2013 at 12:58 PM · [top]

Please stop Tim!


Un-evolved caveman (painting a family portrait on the wall of my cave right next to my picture of Ronald Reagan and images of hunting for wild hairy beasts).

[10] Posted by Undergroundpewster on 3-19-2013 at 01:09 PM · [top]

Portman explained his “reasoning” thusly.  He is for gay marriage now because he has a son who is gay and he doesn’t want to deny him the happiness of a lifelong romantic relationship.

This is the point at which I usually just lose it in absolute amazement at what has happened to us in this country almost overnight and without there ever being the slightest debate about it.  The pro-gay marriage side simply started arguing “Who are you to tell me who I can love. ” and that was it. It was all over. The argument has simply been accepted by increasing majorities as unquestioned truth. To be against gay marriage is the same as telling a gay person that they can’t love who they want to love.  Marriage liberalizers seem to think that this is their killer app,  as if its an argument that no one with a heart could possibly contradict.  Really? How exactly does being pro-marriage force gay people into a lonely hell without hope of a lifelong relationship.  How does a law protecting marriage prevent love from occuring outside of marriage?

But it looks like Portman just swallowed this line of argument without question as so many have.  For me,  this is the worst part of this “flip” of his.  He ought to know better. 

Since his flip, Portman has come to represent for me, more than anyone else, the collapse of any allegiance to logic by the Republicans which has been occurring with shocking rapidity ever since they lost the election.  Even though many pundits predicted such a vote-pandering collapse,  its nevertheless is awful to see it play out.

[11] Posted by StayinAnglican on 3-19-2013 at 01:34 PM · [top]

#1 Ralph- If St. Joseph “provided Jesus other siblings”, he did so prior to his marriage to Blessed Mary Ever Virgin.

[12] Posted by via orthodoxy on 3-19-2013 at 02:04 PM · [top]

Of course if no none can tell you whom you can love(have sex with). then it follows that all “love” is good and it would be unfair to contend otherwise. NAMBLA has to be thrilled.

[13] Posted by Pb on 3-19-2013 at 02:16 PM · [top]

#11 StayinAnglican said,

The pro-gay marriage side simply started arguing “Who are you to tell me who I can love. ” and that was it.

Actually, they simply picked that up from the straight folks’ various apologies for serial divorce and remarriage.  Relationships became all about me, myself and I.  The culture ran with that and the churches decided to be chaplains to it.

If the men and women of a culture reject marriage as defined by God, it ceases to be coherent when we demand that LGBTQ&c live to that definition.

[14] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 3-19-2013 at 02:33 PM · [top]

#12 via orthodoxy OK, since you were responding to an existing comment and now two sides have had their position stated.

Future commenters, do not take this thread in directions related to Mariology, Protestant vs. RC vs. Orthodox understandings of the Holy Family or similar areas of dispute.

See my comment about commemorating saints in “Desecration #1” and let’s stick to an Anglican use for purposes of this thread - only citing Joseph as an exemplar of righteous qualities. 

The other issues are important but not to this thread.

[15] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 3-19-2013 at 02:38 PM · [top]

[comment deleted, off topic]

[16] Posted by radrector on 3-19-2013 at 03:02 PM · [top]

Oops, sorry, Timothy.  I posted before I saw your comment.

[17] Posted by radrector on 3-19-2013 at 03:03 PM · [top]

I have a gay daughter, and she knows that I will never approve of her marriage to another gay woman. Principles are principles and she knows I stand on them.
desert padre

[18] Posted by desertpadre on 3-19-2013 at 04:17 PM · [top]

So many of the problems in TEC and other churches started as “compassion” for people who have difficulties.  Instead of pastoral care, the church opted to declare good what wasn’t, objectively, good.  I am sorry for Portman’s son.  He has a difficult issue which most of us don’t face.  But that doesn’t change the fact that we are created male and female.

[19] Posted by Katherine on 3-19-2013 at 04:22 PM · [top]

Sorta like when one of my older sons visits with his girlfriend.  No way they will EVER stay in the same room until they are married - I don’t care how old they are or even if they live together (which I hope and pray they do not) - not going to happen in my house.

I hope and pray none of my children chose a homosexual lifestyle…but they are all clear on where God stands on the topic…and therefore where I must also stand.

[20] Posted by B. Hunter on 3-19-2013 at 04:44 PM · [top]

18, 19 & 20 you point toward a huge loss in the culture, but even more in the church - the ability to love those with whom we disagree.  Most parents and kids know how this works - we might disagree on a spouse or a career choice or whatever, and we can still love across circumstances over which we disagree.

We’ve come to the place where we have to do all kinds of song and dance to honor behavior we can’t accept.  There’s no love in that kind of submission.  We can bow and scrape in the presence of what we don’t sincerely honor, and do so with gritted teeth and hard hearts.

Likewise, one can make others submit, knowing that it will not result in a free offering of love but an empty social display - there’s no love in making others do that.

#17 Thanks, your understanding is appreciated.

[21] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 3-19-2013 at 04:53 PM · [top]

As much as the current proponents of gay “marriage” maintain that there is no slippery slope, the logical end of the “who are you to tell me who I can love” argument is the destruction of any standards for sexual morality.  Why not polygamy?  Why not incest?  Why not pederasty, so long as it’s consensual?  And on, and on.  “Love” and “personal fulfillment” trump all else.

Why wouldn’t Sen. Portman approve of his son’s engaging in any of the above, or in serial fornication, or “open marriage,” or any other consensual relationship outside of biblical marriage, so long as it provides “love, personal fulfillment, and happiness?”

As a parent, I pray continually that my daughter will grow up to be a godly and God-fearing woman, and be blessed with a godly, God-fearing, loving husband, as I have been blessed with my dear wife.  One of my jobs as her father is to be truly countercultural, to speak and live out God’s truth in and out of season, in my own very imperfect way.  I would not love her very much if I didn’t.

[22] Posted by Joshua 24:15 on 3-22-2013 at 04:56 PM · [top]

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