Rio Grande Releases Their “Survey” for their “Diocesan Profile”

My suggestion to diocese of Rio Grande Stand Firm-ers: By alot of copies of Sarah’s book and start networking now. Think about having her out to help with “strategerizing.” We had her speak in Colorado, and she was great. (Shameless plug with no remuneration.)

Otherwise, you will be in San Diego’s shoes and you will be “celebrating” the first homosexual priest ordination in just a few years time.

This method of gathering information, while less costly and easier to set up, has a very big pitfall or advantage, depending on your point of view. There is nothing to keep a respondent from submitting responses to the questions multiple times. All that seems to be required is to input the name of a parish in the diocese. The results of the survey will say something. The problem is that it will be unclear what.

Oh, and read the “survey” that Sarah <a >references</a>. It is pathetic. Talk about ignoring the elephant in the room that is causing conflict in a majority of parishes. Let’s not even talk about the “h” word!

How about coming up with some better questions:

What characteristics would you like to see a bishop?
1) Married? Yes ___ It doesn’t matter ___
2) Gender? Prefer male ___ Male or female ___ Prefer female ___
3) New bishop’s stance on homosexual clergy?
Should be open opponent ___ Should be neutral ___ Should be in favor ___
4) New bishop’s stance on same sex union blessings?
Should be open opponent ___ Should be neutral ___ Should be in favor ___

Other questions? One could provide an alternative survey. There are plenty of websites that provide free survey platforms. Or perhaps a church or a member of the diocese of Rio Grande could volunteer to tally the results?

and would a “church member’s tally actually be accepted/ relied upon?

Wow, incredibly vague and to say the least…this leave it wide open for just about anyone who believes anything! 

I encourage those who have the ear of the Profile Committee to intervene now before it is too late…..

With such open ended questions, why waste a computer’s time with the survey? The results of this survey will go in the trash can because there will be no way any human or machine could analyze the (lack of) data.

Robroy,
We had her speak in Colorado, and she was great. (Shameless plug with no remuneration.)

What about O’Neal and his new ordination of the lesbian priestess- promply sent off to Ft. Collins?

Love to Sarah, but it changed nothing.  Networking changed nothing.  Remember “We will all go together”?
I can’t fault trying, but O’Neal had/has to be laughing.

Holy Schmoly, Batman! No security to even identify those submitting a response as real people of this diocese! I’d like to know how they plan to validate they have a viable and accurate response!

Should be “buy a lot” not “by alot”. Aack! (Blogging between cases can make you look like an idiot.)

You raise a good point, Elizabeth. One of the problems of raising the awareness of orthodox laity (as the Convocation of Laity and Clergy of Colorado did) is that the laity find out what is really going on, and they simply leave. The CLCC was a victim of its own success. But the diocese of Rio Grande isn’t in the situation that we are in and they can make a difference - starting with a better polling of the “mind of the diocese.”

Robroy,

I had no idea I was still so angry.  Sorry about the blow-up.

Were you at ACRC when Bishop Kelshaw spoke?  He is one of the finest.  I still have his presentation on tape.  He must be weeping for his diocese right now.

Blessings,
Lizzy

RR:

How about coming up with some better questions:

What characteristics would you like to see a bishop?

Page 2:
Scrabble or Sudoku ?
Plaid or Rainbow?
Ahi or California Roll?
Flip flops or Birks?
Flannel or chenille?
Buddah or Christ?

#10- Elizabeth
I sent Bishop Terry the link. I thought he should know.

Robroy- Are you going to be able to join us for Anglican Men’s Weekend in May. Online registration at http://www.anglicanmensweekend.org (able to plug shamelessly with the best of them)

[11] Intercessor,

For some (perhaps most) of the current candidates one is going to find in TEC, I should think you might need to add another set of characteristics:  Rare, Medium, or Well.

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

A search for a new bishop in Rio Grande may require clairvoyancy. Among recent selections there was one with a very lively libido, one now with Uganda, and another a Roman Catholic priest. And a survey of the diocese won’t help. From 2002 through 2007 Members declined by 12 percent, ASA by 23 percent, and Plate & Pledge by 26 percent in REAL dollars. In 2007 there were 150 Infant Baptisms and 216 Burials. And it took 13,212 Members to produce 150 baptisms or 88 to ONE which may well win high praise from the PB. And in 2007 among the 53 churches in the diocese there were 21 with ASA of 50 or LESS. Bishop Frey (interim bishop) used to sarcastically call the ECUSA in Colorado as the Republican Party at prayer. No longer true as Colorado is now true BLUE. And I would assume that he is happy that New Mexico is also. Statmann

Intercessor, I would have thought that your last question would be unnecessary…until this year!

Keith, I am hoping to go to the <a >Anglican Men’s Weekend</a> and am trying to get some more Coloradoans to go as well. I went last year, and it was fantastic.

I like the last part - Let’s make sure you’re human!  Gotta test that for sure.

I am a new poster to this forum so I thought I would start with just a little of my background.  I came to Christ as an adult in the Diocese of the Rio Grande thanks to a very loving, accepting, Orthodox parish.  I was confirmed by none other that Bishop Terence Kelshaw, a man I will forever admire as a true defender of the faith.
With this in mind, I feel I must add to this discussion from and insiders point of view.  I attended one of the laity focus groups.  We were assured that all of our comments would be forwarded to the search committee.  We answered these same questions individually and as a group.  One of the men I attended with quoted very eloquently 1 Timothy 3:1-7.  While I share many of your concerns about the web survey, I am an Information Technology professional as well, I want to assure you that orthdox laity and ordained are making our voices heard and we are praying that the search committee will do what is God’s will.

[15] robroy (aka robroi),

I wish you all success both in attending and in encouraging others’ attendance at the Anglican Men’s Weekend. Alas, I currently reside in Washington State (near Seattle), and my schedule is largely full for the next several months. I hope that you do make it, and that this year’s weekend measures up to, or even exceeds, last year’s.

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

I know little about what has gone on in Rio Grande.  Judging from the diocesan webpage, which I have checked a few times in order to post prayers, it seems like there has been a lot of small group indaba, professional consultants, indaba, protracted time scale, indaba.  A lot of work from a relatively small group of representatives. 
A broader voice is desperately needed.

Reality Check: it is not the fully TEC parishes that are losing members in DRG: it is the self-styled “orthodox” who are dragging our numbers down. And why not? The Roman Catholics, Southern Baptists and Assembly of God people do that thing better than they do.

This diocese is just beginning to recover from the effects of bishops like T. Kelshaw. Life-long Episcopalians were driven out of their churches by those he and others brought in, several of whom were barely reconstructed from their Assembly of God careers.

Bishop Steenson did provide a bridge to normalcy—and for that we are all grateful. We now have a real opportunity for growth and ministry unknown in past decades. I hope SFIF will rejoice with us.

I notice that many of the comments above have to do with homosexuality, as if that trumped our missionary imperative and our call to be a shining example of the love and compassion of Jesus Christ in this State. We probably don’t need the message that “Faith, Hope and Love, these three—and the greatest of these is Demonizing gay and lesbian people” any more. You do that here—I don’t think we are going to do that here ever again. Praise God. I await the time when SFIF will rejoice with us.
Tom Woodward, former Nominee for Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of the Rio Grande

#20. TBWSantaFe,
Hi Tom, how does the survey look to you? Anything to add or delete? See post #3 by my amigo robroy for the survey.
Regards,

James1:19-20, thanks for posting and I appreciate the comments.  But focus groups are notoriously unreliable because their sample sizes are so teensy.  Typically—if an organization actually wants to know about something—they’ll do quantitative surveys of high numbers of people, then hone in on key issues revealed in the survey about which they wish to know more.

But of course . . . those in charge of these matters do not wish to know what the diocese thinks or believes.  And I can understand that if Tom Woodward is at all representative of those folks. 

“Recover” = descent into further chaos.

“Normalcy” = grotesque corrupt dysfunction and lies.

“Growth” = decline and death.

“Ministry” = cursing.

“missionary imperative” = Shelob

“love and compassion” = indifference and vacuity

Tom Woodward, former Nominee for Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of the Rio Grande = terribly amusing

Sarah, thanks for the cutesy definitions. Just what one would expect from a follower of Jesus Christ.

As a matter of fact, Sarah, there were far more of the Kelshaw crowd involved in this process than moderates or progressives. Several of them, I’m told, are simply tired of the negativity and the stagnation it has produced.

About being a nominee here when Jeffrey Steenson was elected? I was thrilled with his election and pleased when the leader of the “orthodox” in this diocese who was on the Search Committee told me later that my nomination was taken very seriously and that I was seen as “a very viable candidate for the position.” So much for your definining reality from afar, I guess. I would love to see some honest, respectful engagement from you. The weak attempts at humor at my and others expense keeps you well insulated from it.

Robroy (#3), I think it is probably always unwise to include litmus test questions like those you propose into this kind of questionaire (though I realize they are important to some). You may well get someone who agrees with you on issues B and C; but what happens when, three years later when that bishop disagrees with you on issues G and H? 

This diocese has good and faithful priests and lay people from most points of the spectrum on various issues. A great bishop is one who will encourage mutuality and respect among those people as they continue to discern the will of God for this part of the Kingdom - rather than adding to negativity and judgmentalism.

I believe the central questions are these:
1. How will you support the whole of the diocese?
2. How will you restore a sense of mutual respect and love within the diocese?
3. How would you approach the outreach of this diocese to the Latino and Native American people of this State with whom we have very little if any relationship?
Thanks for asking

You’re always free to offer your thoughts, Tom Woodward, as long as they remain on topic.

RE: “the leader of the “orthodox” in this diocese who was on the Search Committee told me later that my nomination was taken very seriously . . . “

Of course—and papally imprimatured as well.  Not certain what that has to do with my being terribly amused.  But as long as you’re happy, Tom—that’s what matters.

RE: “The weak attempts at humor . . . “

No humor at all—I’m completely serious when I point out that you and I do not share the same gospel, nor the same basic essential words and their meanings.

RE: “I would love to see some honest, respectful engagement from you.”

First I’d have to respect your theology, your mind, your honor, your integrity, your character . . . many things would have to change about what you do and who you are before I could possibly engage with anything approaching minimum levels of contempt and disdain for your beliefs and actions.

I’ll think I’ll simply continue to express precisely what I believe about yours and my gospels instead.

TBWSantaFe- you forgot to mention the part about the classes you used to teach at Nashotah House, you studly former bishop nominee, professor par excellence.

Tom, you miss the point of the survey entirely. The questions are not for the candidates for the bishopric, but rather to gather information on the “mind of the diocese” regarding what the parishes would like to see in the next bishop. Let us stop with the questions like, “Would you like the next bishop to be nice, yes or no?” Since over 50% of parishes have had conflict over the issue of homosexuality, we need to stop dancing around it.

With questions like these, they’ll still say it’s all about sex for reasserters:

What characteristics would you like to see a bishop?
1) Married? Yes ___ It doesn’t matter ___
2) Gender? Prefer male ___ Male or female ___ Prefer female ___
3) New bishop’s stance on homosexual clergy?
Should be open opponent ___ Should be neutral ___ Should be in favor ___
4) New bishop’s stance on same sex union blessings?
Should be open opponent ___ Should be neutral ___ Should be in favor ___

#24.TBWSantaFe,
Thanks for offering questions at my request so the response was to me (post#21) not robroy who listed the questions (post#3)
Regards,

[29] Dcn Dale,

Perhaps the confusion of “he whom I have banished to Coventry” extends beyond his moral, ethical and theological reasoning, to his ability to identify who said what. Just one hypothesis that would explain the disconnect you noted.

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

#30. Martial Artist,
I can’t help myself. My past life required me to inquire of others to what extent they were oriented X3 and to help them reorient when possible. (Person, Place, Time). When Alzheimer patients decline in the final stages of awareness, there is not much point in attempting to reorient them. I have also found this to be the case for some liberals.  Actually Tom and MP are not among that group. Both Tom and Mad Potter sometimes push the boundaries on the “reality thing” although MP has been much better of late. Tom has what I would refer to as elective memory loss. It’s tricky but he can be coaxed to offer up some interesting responses not just comments that lead to a feeding frenzy.