Diocese of Rio Grande: St. Marks on the Mesa Splits, Majority Found New Anglican Church

I am happy to see them leave TGC and welcome them to ACNA.  If their leaving was related to a bishop search process, it may be because they know what kind of bishop they are likely to wind up with in TGC.
Polycarp

Fascinating…
Isn’t Rio Grande still looking for a Bishop? Or are they really looking?

Interesting.  The website says nothing about the events of today, but the staff webpage indicates only the two people indicated in the main post.

carl

Rio Grande will never see another Steenson and the radicals installed in the last year in US and of course GC09 snuff out any hope for the faith once delivered to continue. Sounds like your post indicates they will walk away from the property which creates a wonderful resale opportunity for the Epsicopal Realty Corp.
All is Well
Intercessor

I pray for Grace and Guidance for all the splinters.

An interesting little document to show the reaction of the Diocese to GC2009.  David Lukenbach, the former rector of St Mark’s, is shown in the picture of the delegation on page one.  Evidently, he was not impressed with what he saw in Anaheim.

carl

Let me extend a welcome to Christ the King of Mesa from Christ the King of Free Soil, MI (try to find it on a map, if you think ACNA has not yet penetrated to rural America). 

I think it is pretty clear that the main obstacle in the search process is that the will of the diocese has been effectively blocked by those loyal to the TEC leadership.  There will not be a bishop until enough traditional Christians have been eliminated to be enable a “company man (or woman)” to sit in the see.  While it is a pity for the Anglican Communion that Bp. Steenson’s tenure was so short, he led by example, something that is, I think, missed my many of his critics.  He made his recommendation obvious, in his own action.

The ransomed of the LORD will return. They will enter Zion with singing; everlasting joy will crown their heads. Gladness and joy will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away. Isa 51:11

Welcome to a day of singing!

carl, a search for Luckenbach finds him newly located in the Diocese of Texas at Christ Church, Tyler.  He is not leading Christ the King of Mesa.  Anyone know who is?

Why oh why do they need to search for a bishop when they have the perfect candidate already in their midst: TBWSantFe?????

I believe that David Luckenbach left in August for Christ Church in Tyler [Diocese of Texas] and I believe that the Weber’s are leading the new church.

I’m betting both Luckenbach and Webers will do great!

Sorry, via orthodoxy, your post was opaque to me. Who is the “perfect candidate”? What does “TBWSantaFe” mean?

A nice progressive liberal priest.

martin5, your post was equally opaque. When you write “A nice progressive liberal priest”, to whom are you referring? Sorry to be so dense.

Brother Rabbit, TBWSantaFe is a progressive liberal priests who posts here occasionally.  His wikipedia page is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bullene_Woodward

#5 RicardoCR: “I pray for Grace and Guidance for all the splinters.” 
For St. Mark’s it appears that the splinters (the smallpieces left after a piece os broken apart) are those remaining in TEC…

Sarah, from what I know (and have heard) you have reported the facts accurately right down the line. I believe The Rev. Roger Weber is officially priest-in-charge, having been the Associate Rector under The Rev. David Luckenbach before he went to Christ Church in Tyler, Texas. It is my understanding that The Rev. Canon Harold Trott has also left the Episcopal Church with the congregation under his care, Church of Our Saviour, Albuquerque. This all obviously will have a large impact on the Diocese of the Rio Grande. Please pray for us.

Thanks, James. I was in the dark.

Big deal.  So a few hundred more have left TEO.  Just wait for all those LGBT’s to join up.  I hear there is at least one thinking about joining a church somewhere on the left coast.

Oh, no doubt DaveG no doubt!

Br’er Rabbit,
While I deeply appreciate your sense of humor, I would warn you to be on guard against provoking people to say a particular name too many times on one thread, since if it is said too many times, he will suddenly appear in a great puff of smoke and mirrors.

And via orthodoxy,
While I believe the gentleman in question is already in retirement, one should always be cognizant of the Law, in this case, Johnson’s Law.  Now that you have said it, should Johnson’s Law apply, there is a distinct likelihood that he will be wearing a pointy hat within the year.

TJ, I was going to suggest that someone quick hide all the pointy hats.
But then I remembered that someone else has an inexhaustible supply of oven mitts.

There goes the neighborhood. The conservatives fleeing leaving the Tom Woodward’s in charge.

#21- Actually I am ever-so-humble a pretty good handicapper of some things. I predicted Cardinal Ratzinger’s election to the See of Peter, and KJS’s election as PB. I doubt TBW will be elected Bishop of the Rio Grande; but someone very much like him will. And this person will also be the Last Bishop of the Rio Grande.

Sarah, you write:

from my own perspective it also represents a stunning repudiation of the interminable and turgid bishop search process that has been winding its way through the institutional maw since the departure of Bishop Steenson for Rome [please note—my mentioning Bishop Steenson does not mean that this post is now about Bishop Steenson]. Much of the length of that search process seems to be because the diocesan leaders have a belief that the diocese will be “unified” by a reconciliation process while dragging out the bishop search process over a long period of time.

The lack of a bishop and, what I would term as the overreach of the Standing Committee, certainly added to the frustration.  For most, the refusal to submit to the authority of Scripture was the problem - whether it was the refusal of General Convention to affirm that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; the approval of the Episcopal Church to the ordination of clergy living outside of biblical standards (being given to much wine, re-marriage after divorce, homosexual behavior, etc.); the National Church’s “generous pastoral response” of blessing sexual relationships God has proscribed; the Standing Committee’s use of diocesan funds for a lawsuit against of St. Francis-on-the-Hill (an El Paso parish which has left TEC); or the fact that, with the departure of several other parishes, the diocesan leadership was strongly influenced and would soon be controlled by those with a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.  All these various items led many people at St. Mark’s to conclude that it was time to leave.

Most people, however, found it possible to endure the puerile playacting of the “New Life” meetings.  Most people were willing to participate in the Bishop’s Search Committee’s meetings and complete search profiles despite being told, “You don’t need to read it, we’ve already heard what the Bible says” (and yes, I was at the meeting when the Committee member said it).  Most people accepted that we would have to host the Transition Committee and meet with candidates who would say what we wanted to hear leaving us to “discern” the truth.  And most people had even accepted that the Diocese would not elect another man with the strongly orthodox faith of +Terrence Kelshaw or +Jeffrey Steenson.

Based on the conversations I have had over the last several years (especially since the most recent General Convention) and based on what was discussed yesterday, the deciding issue for most of those leaving St. Mark’s was Dr. Schori’s “Western heresy.”

Whatever she may have meant, the message that a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus, that being saved as an individual and being personally brought into a right relationship with God, was “a form of idolatry” seems to have been the sine qua non for the bulk of those who were formerly willing to continue the struggle.

For most, this decision was not a repudiation, stunning or otherwise, of an interminable and turgid process, though it has been such (and, I believe, purposely so).  This decision was a stand for the Lordship Jesus Christ by those who confess that “there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

In Christ,
Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan for these “good times” memories that you list above.  ; > )

I had heard similar stuff.  I especially enjoyed this paragraph:

“Most people, however, found it possible to endure the puerile playacting of the “New Life” meetings.  Most people were willing to participate in the Bishop’s Search Committee’s meetings and complete search profiles despite being told, “You don’t need to read it, we’ve already heard what the Bible says” (and yes, I was at the meeting when the Committee member said it).  Most people accepted that we would have to host the Transition Committee and meet with candidates who would say what we wanted to hear leaving us to “discern” the truth.  And most people had even accepted that the Diocese would not elect another man with the strongly orthodox faith of +Terrence Kelshaw or +Jeffrey Steenson.”

But please note that I was not saying that folks left *because* of the interminable bishop search process . . . as I said . . . “many people do not wish to be a part of a national organization that is as corrupt and heretical as TEC even if their diocesan leadership is fantastic” and I think that fits in well with the facts about Schori and her statements.

Nevertheless—even though people didn’t leave *because* of the bishop search process, I still maintain that their depature in part “represents a stunning repudiation of the interminable and turgid bishop search process that has been winding its way through the institutional maw since the departure of Bishop Steenson for Rome . . . “

Were I a member of the search committee—and particularly a member of the diocesan Standing Committee, I’d try to make myself feel better by saying “aw, they left over Schori et al and the disaster of a General Convention . . . ” . . . but I’d still also know in my heart that the departure represents a complete lack of trust that is *endemic* in that diocese and communicated by the numerous and plentiful accounts that I have read from many many people in that diocese.

Again—I’m not saying people leave because of the Standing Committee or the Search Committee.  But no leader worth his or her salt in the business world—and in the non-profit world—can not *honestly* take a massive departure such as this as evidence of faith in that same leadership.

It’s just not possible for a leader of integrity to think otherwise.

Er . .  just in case anyone does not understand what the “good times” reference means . . . it is the *opposite* of actually “good times” . . .

Woodward has his own WikiPedia page?

AAAAA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAH!!!!!!!

You’re right, Greg. That’s funnier than an oven mitt.

[13] martin5,

And if memory serves, I believe that Fr. Woodward is very nearly at, if not already past, the mandatory retirement age for ordained stipendiary clergy in TEC.

Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer

Bp. Bill Frye several weeks ago was chosen to be in charge of St. Mark’s for the month of October to help them chose the right interim rector. Bp. Frye has taken a strong stance personally against the controversial stances or GC and the PB mentioned above. The DRG Standing Committee chose not to align themselves with his faithful statements.

Christ the King, diocese of the Holy Spirit, ACNA, takes possession on the 1st as a renter of the former Church on the Rock property at 5300 N. 2nd Street, Albuquerque NM, just south of Montaño. Their first Eucharist service will be at 9AM, Sunday, October 4th.

I was present and afterward welcomed the Weber’s into the ACNA.

I knew you’d enjoy that, Greg

David Luckenback+ gave one of the most reasoned arguments on the floor of GC ‘09 for the orthodox position on one of the critical issues. He also apparently saw the handwriting on the wall in deciding to accept a call to the Diocese of Texas. The orthodox are glad to have this native son back home and yes, he is related to the song which bears his name.

# 33
Related to the song or the town?

Bob+, native Texan and a visitor to Luckenback

I am an exiting member of St. Marks on the Mesa who no longer believes in organized religion.  I used to be a 52-weeks-a-year kind of gal, but no more.  What I don’t understand is why the progressives as well as orthodox haven’t figured out that we have the freedom of religion in this country; (to the progressives)if you wish to change someone’s religion, don’t be surprised that they use their freedom to take a hike.  (To the orthodox) all the fighting just allows the unchurched to feel better about their decision to sleep-in or have family-time on Sunday mornings(both sound good to me).
For God’s people on the Mesa, it is no big loss when it comes to the building of St. Mark’s; perhaps you don’t remember the sewer back-up several years ago that resulted in relocation for months until the church insurance corporation could clean it up.  Bye-bye to bricks & mortar (or perhaps chicken wire and stucco is more appropriate); I also don’t like putting all the parish resources into the building at the expense of ministry to all God’s people (saved or unsaved).  If Christ the King has to have a building, I hope it will be green, at least.

[29] Br_er Rabbit,

Nothing is funnier than the oven mitt. If I knew how to post a picture in my message, we could laugh at it again, and compare the two. Do this and I believe you will see that the…(searching for description of the indescribable)...comical-ness of the Oven mitt vastly outweighs the comical-ness of the Wiki page.

Yours in Christ,
jacob

Tea cozies are also good.

Another Christ the King Anglican!  Awesome! 

Jacob, perhaps That Certain Party’s Wiki page could be updated with a photo of him in an oven mitt? But then we’d be toying with Johnson’s Law.

I notice that That Certain Party received his final SF warning ever a ways back.

Don’t forget the sporks go with the oven mitts.

#34

I am an exiting member of St. Marks on the Mesa who no longer believes in organized religion.

Ouch. Another potential convert for George Barna’s Revolution.

Re: [35] exspice

I am an exiting member of St. Marks on the Mesa who no longer believes in organized religion.

Evidently, we are all supposed to feel some sense of collective guilt for shattering exspice’s ‘belief in organized religion’.  Whatever.  In my experience, people do not come to these positions because of events such as what happened at St Mary’s on the Mesa.  They use events such as what happened at St Mary’s on the Mesa to rationalize a prior decision.  Sort of the ‘not my fault’ defense.  And somehow it seems more significant if the guilty parties get informed.  Stomping out the door isn’t quite so satisfying unless someone notices.

I speak personally as someone who was basically run out of three churches, and was tempted to make the same decision.  To just quit and just stay home on Sunday morning was still on me.  I could have blamed other people, but inside I always knew that the decision was still on me.  I ain’t buying what you are selling, exspice.

carl

Except for the faithful who are now put off by organized religion (been there, done that - for a while, and for good reason, so I understand) all the rest of this story can be only good news.

Another week goes by, and two more parishes and several hundred orthodox souls (200? 300?) rescue themselves from the sinking ship that is TEC.

What’s not to like? Bishop Duncan has said he wants to see another thousand orthodox parishes in ACNA. I am beginning to think, with God’s help, he can do it. May the Lord bless him in his efforts.

Carl—First of all, it is St. Mark’s, not St. Mary’s (I know, I’ve been to both). 

Second, I was a part of the great machine that is parish ministry—the machine that sees any new face that comes in the door, not as a person, but a potential Sunday School teacher or pledge in the plate, whatever hole there is to fill.  The organized church that exists today is either a great metal contraption that sucks people in, chews them up, and spits them out…or an impersonal happy pill vending machine that let’s people get their spiritual vitamins (some with a McDonalds in the lobby to boot) so everybody feels good.

Try reading “Jaded.”  I am not alone.  There are Christians all across the country who are dropping out of church.  They are meeting together in homes, or on line, or not at all.  But they’re are not going to church.

The church is supposed to be community, and whether you are “standing firm” or wallowing in theological manure, neither side is doing community very well.  You can stick you head in the sand, but theology isn’t the only thing wrong with the church today. 

It just so happens that St. Mark’s on the Mesa has been a close knit community that reached out to me after I stayed away from church for 18 months.  They saw me as a person who needed love and someone to listen.  They didn’t ask me to do anything.  But there are thousands of casualties in this church war that are never coming back, to Anglicanism or any other ism. 

My family is now divided, going to different churches, trying to find a way to be a family without the shelter of our church of the last twenty five years. If anything, realize that the only way any of us are going to get through this horror is to acknowledge each other’s pain.  At St. Mark’s on Sunday, everyone was shedding tears, those who are leaving and those who are staying.  The church is a very painful place to be, but Jesus walked a painful path to save me; I can’t do anything less.  But, it’s Jesus, Him crucified, buried, and risen, that gets me up on Sunday morning, not organized religion .

It may not be your guilt to carry, but it is the reality.

Meeting in private houses may be the most authentically historical (early undivided church) way to ‘do church’. 

The BCP (in morning and evening prayer) allows for ‘ministers’ who are not priests to lead, very convenient for those meeting in houses who have no ordained ministers among them, provides for an orderly service, includes the old and new testaments (as is proper, they are two volumes of one book), and has beautiful language…

It has wonderful theology in its prayers, it has a reading schedule that gets you through most of the scriptures every year, and it has ‘services’ that are theologically sound for the major events in a person’s life < OK, I have issues with ‘this child is regenerate’, but otherwise I’m able to sign-on >.

If we throw-away the meeting in ‘special houses’, let us retain the wisdom of those who during the turbulent period leading up to the restoration came to know a good bit about the importance of prayer, scripture, and unity on essentials.

As a member of Church of Our Savior, I just wanted to note the accuracy of the report in respect to our congregation.  We gave notice of our intentions to the standing committee two weeks ago and are meeting in rented space pending a reply to our offer to purchase the prior building.  By the grace of God there has been no division in the congregation.  We have not made any moves to join an alternate Anglican association that I am aware of, but my work schedule has kept me somewhat out of the loop. 

These events certainly reflect a disappointment and a lack of faith in the bishop selection process.  I would also point out that the departure of the Church of Our Savior leaves no TEC presence in the South Valley. 

Pax Christi Vobiscum,
Eluchil

[44] exspice

There are Christians all across the country who are dropping out of church.  They are meeting together in homes, or on line, or not at all.  But they’re are not going to church.

Dress it up any way you like.  Just answer one question.  Where are the elders you are commanded to obey?

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. Hebrews 13:17

carl

Carl,
To answer your question in 47 rhetorically, are we to assume that the local rector or bishop is the “leader” of Hebrews 13?  Which you are equating with “elder” in your own question.  The leaders of the Church are not necessarily bishops and priests found in church buildings, and I would argue (and I think you would agree, unless I am addressing “progressive carl”) that 80% of TEC bishops and clergy in the current day are not leaders or elders of the Church (capital C).  The elder may indeed be the person (not necessarily the oldest in years, but the “oldest” in faith) in a family willing to do the work to hold the family together in the living room and pray, rather than see it disintegrate spiritually.
  I think that much of the success of AMiA over the last decade is their recognition that the building is not as important as the congregation.  TEC has lost this as a matter of policy and canon law, having elevated property law above the first seven councils of the Church, the Word of God and even common sense.  Not to put words in her mouth, but I take exspice’s comments as a warning to those of us who would break from TEC, but want to maintain all the structure, real estate, etc.  We do need a recognition that the Church is the people who are the Body of Christ, and that is, in the end, all we need, and where our focus should be- whether we are talking about 4 people in a living room or the Diocese of Fort Worth.  If there are Anglicans out their meeting in living rooms, it strikes me that the first order of business for a new Anglican congregation should be to make contact with them and make sure they receive Holy Communion once in a while, during the time that you try to build a bridge that invites them into your church. 
  People have been hurt by what TEC has done to them, and in their name.  In some cases their faith is damaged.  Healing works differently for different people.  Some need community, some need separation for a time.  For everything, there is a season.
  The key for leaders and elders is that we must be very careful in the future to test the vocation of the clergy and not ordain everybody who asks and has a diploma in comparative religion from the local community college.  We need to examine the character as well as the resume of candidates for the episcopate, and stop the practice of seeing “ex-Roman divorced attorney” as the ideal candidate for a pointy hat.

Exspice, welcome to Stand Firm. Don’t let carl scare you off. Your voice is valuable here, where we spend an inordinate amount of time agonizing over church polity and politics, and tend to be consumed by the latest machination of the evil TEC oligarchy.

I don’t know if you have read George Barna’s book, Revolution. but he puts forth a vigorous defense of those who have been put off by “organized religion” and yet remain “faithful Christians.” I have read it, and came away with the same concern that carl alludes to.

That is, Barna does not deal with the issue of mutual accountability, or submission to church elders. Followed to its logical absurdity, Barna’s model would have us become a nation of 300,000 one-person “churches” trying to be faithful to Jesus. That is surely not what Jesus had in mind when he founded his church on a “rock.”

When I first encountered the folks of my “church,” we had two vibrant house-churches going, awash in hopes of planting yet more of the same. That did not happen, as it seemed that we were eached called to widely different personal calls to ministry. Now we get together monthly to have Eucharist with the bishop at his house.

While I was doing missionary work on the Gulf Coast, I led morning prayer seven days a week for a group of 3 to 6 men, and found that very rewarding, both for its spiritual discipline and for the reflection on the Scriptures as found in the lectionary. It is not necessary to have a homily—but after reading the lessons, it is fruitful to engage one another breifly on what the Scriptures are saying.

So be encouraged, Exspice. We don’t have to “Dress it up any way you like.” Find a way to work out your faith while involving others. Bo could be offering the best advice:

If we throw-away the meeting in ‘special houses’, let us retain the wisdom of those who during the turbulent period leading up to the restoration came to know a good bit about the importance of prayer, scripture, and unity on essentials.

That is, let us retain contact with the Elders of the faith, and especially, let us remain accountable to one another and to our Elders.

er, that humber would be 300,000,000 one-person “churches.”

  Where are the elders you are commanded to obey?

Carl, I think you have stumbled on a truth.  I believe most are leaving because there are no leaders they can obey or follow.  The institutional church is filled with hirelings and company men and not shepherds and guardians of the souls of their charges.  It doesn’t take a theologian for the dumb sheep to realize this and wander on.  Now can there be a chrch without elders?  Apparantly so, since in Galatia churches were functioning before Paul returned and ordained elders in every congregation and also in Crete for Titus to do the same.  We are suffering a leadership crisis.  A man is not a leader just because he has logged in a number of hours in an apostate seminary, has hands that are empty laid on his head by apostate “bishops,”  or someone who can dress up in a costume and perform.  The Holy Spirit raises up leaders.  The sheepeople sense this and choose to gather with the other refugees in some home or at Starbucks.  After all, the Plymouth Brethern—what ever they are—were founded by J.N.Darby, and Anglican priest who had a home Bible study and they seem to be doing about as well as any other group,  and have lots of missionaries that are effective and the Lord’s Supper each Lord’s day.  Now for the record, I believe in ordained elders and a “real” church that meets weekly.  But I think the sheepeople are not the ones to blame.  IMHO

I am new to such a forum, but enjoyed reading what you all had to say.  I too am a former St Mark’s member who faithfully attended for the past 36 years.  This past Sunday was indeed an emotional one with many tears shed.  But I can now hold my head up high feeling a sense of peace that we can now stand up and continue to say I choose to walk with Christ!  It is indeed the Rev. Roger Weber who has so carefully guided the parish through a very painful and difficult decission.  To me, Christ the King represents a renewed sense of hope.  I do say that easily 75-80% of the parish will gather at Christ the King.  I am “hearing” more like 90% will end up gathering.  With a strong vestry of 12 and staff of 10 our desire to continue with missions and various ministries will certainly be able to carry on.  Onward Christain solders!!

This news about St Marks on the Mesa is rather personal to us. My wife and I went on our honeymoon to New Mexico.  Before we left, our priest said ‘I know a very godly priest in New Mexico named Terry Kelshaw. If you see him tell I said hello. He was my professor in Seminary.’ Ignoring the unlikelihood off this I promised I would. Soon after we landed, we drove to the Diocesan offices to find out about Service times and locations. The woman at the office didn’t know but opined that “the Bishop” would. The next we knew we were being introduced the Bishop of the Rio Grande who was very excited to hear from an old student and also to hear that we were just married by a bishop friend of his. +Kelshaw immediately invited us to an event that evening at St Marks on the Mesa. After we arrived he proceeded to introduce us to everyone in the parish. It was at the very least a memorable introduction to the people of Rio Grande. We tried to keep St Marks in our prayers and try to keep up with goings on in the Diocese of Rio Grande and in touch with the Kelshaws. When Kelshaw+ retired and his successor left early, we suspected things were going awry despite all the exciting stuff that had been happening. This news only strengthens that suspicion

It is amusing that some would attribute this to an extended bishop search rather than to the undeniable fact that TGC is a pathetic joke, which is the obvious reason.
Polycarp

My sister was in this diocese, and their church had prepared for this 10+ years ago, finally left and formed an Anglican Church maybe 2-3 years ago….most of the orthodox lost hope of having a Christian church while within TEC, according to her.

I too emphasize that the choice to leave the Episcopal Church has nothing to do with the extended bishop search. It had to do with many culminating factors that were prayed about for the longest time.  It was in no way an easy decision for those who chose to leave, but we are at peace and look forward to having services this Sunday, October 4th as though we haven’t skipped a beat at Christ the King.  May God bless us all during these times of transition.

carl:

I speak personally as someone who was basically run out of three churches, and was tempted to make the same decision.

Are you sure it was only three?

Always remember, the Episcopal Church w-w-w-welcomes you, but even we can’t run you out unless you join first.

Whenever you’re ready to meet us half way, we’ll be ready too.

How long could it possibly take?