A Few Comments on American Culture, Barbarity, and These Stunning Photographs from Saipan

Thanks for sharing this.  My husband, a military historian/war gamer and military model builder will enjoy seeing them.

Sarah, I remember when the US Government took cigarettes out of C Rations at the end of Viet Nam. We all commented how nice it was of Uncle Sam to worry so much about our health—we’d all be breathing very comfortably during artillery barrages.

Great article, great pics - and very good commentary by you, Sarah!

Thanks for posting.

My father was there then.  The photos helped me understand what he experienced.  I was born that year in December, but didn’t get back home from the Pacific Theater until 14 months after that.

Our family experienced war again together when he was stationed as a pilot in South Korea when the war started.  I agree with Representative (FL) and retired Lt. Colonel Alan West and many other soldiers, “War is Hell.”

Little-known fact: those Taliban were on fire.

Thanks Sarah, for the thoughtful commentary.

An alert reader points out that it was not Daniel Pearl who was beheaded “live” on video—it was, rather, Nick Berg—and I have edited the post for accuracy.  Just noting the update in the comments here as well.

Us L2 discussed this idea this week.  One of the things we Americans tend to do is see thing through our “context” and expect others to respond in that same context in spite of the fact that the culture of others is markedly different.

It is a two-edged sword.  We obviously haven’t won the conflicts being Mr. Nice Guy because what we see as positive character traits are offensive to the enemy.

One of the things that we pride ourselves on is what apparently separates us is our behavior and in this I’m saddened by the act.  Yet I’m not there in the trenches.  Nor am I dealing with an enemy that has no respect for me, my country or its values, and has in fact declared war upon it.

Part of war is psychological operations/warfare.  We are dealing with an enemy who has a different mindset, different values.  Will the act of urinating on the bodies of the enemy (or the like) end or lessen the war in the long run because the enemy understands on their own level that they are not free from being treated the way they have treated others?  Will taking the war down to their level, making it more unpleasant and personal for the enemy make it less appealing to them? 

Or do we lose our humanity and what makes us unique when we stoop to their level.  Yes, a two-edged sword.

Just got done reading a NYT article about this.  It’s amazing how much our well-heeled leaders are willing to throw them under the bus, along with the Taliban of all people.  Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 

Yeah, we’re not Rome.  I’m all for giving the lads some time in a military courtroom so they can reconsider their actions while others decide on consequences.  Not because it will let the Obama Administration save face or because it satisfies some felt-need of people like me or even people like Michael Moore, or because it might finally convince (heh) the Taliban to be nice to us, but because it’s good for -them-. 

Meanwhile, I tip my hat to these soldiers and the ones who serve with them. 

Thanks for posting this, Sarah.

Let me see if I can understand this: our leaders send our brave military off to a tribal land full of terrorists who once attacked, and barbarically, killed over 3000 fellow innocent citizens.  Said military folks go into battle but have to be politically sensitive to the enemy, meticuously follow rules of engagement, and have no concrete idea whatsoever what “victory” looks like.  Said military folks, after seeing half their buddies killed, and having survived a firefight with said enemy, have a momentary lapse and act out in a crude way their incredible frustrations and release their fears and sucumb to possible PTSD issues.

And us brave folks back home support them how?

God Bless America and God Bless the American Military.  Dear Lord, protect our military from its enemies, home and abroad.  Let their lives not be given in vain by stupid, foolish leaders who cannot honor them by at least giving them a mission worthy of their sacrifices.  Stir up in us a resolve to honor our military, to stand by them in all circumstances, to understand it is we who put them in harms way, who demand the highest from them, and who are not worthy to tie the laces of their boots.  Amen.

Thank you for the pictures.  My father was in the Army in WWII, and was in Leyte in the Phillippines campaign.  Among other things he oversaw bringing in medical supplies.  He never talked about what he saw and experienced, except that during the occupation of Japan he couldn’t believe how short and thin all the people were. 
  Again, thanks for posting this, “lest we forget, lest we forget.”

Thanks for posting this. I had a parishioner who fought at Saipan and his stories were simply amazing. I went to Iraq as a chaplain of Marines in 2006.  What strikes me most is that while the equipment and the terrain changes, the faces are still the same.

As for the Marines currently in the news, they have my prayers for a just response to their actions.  All who go to war, in the US military, are taught about moral responsibility and legal conduct on the battlefield.  Their action was inconsistent with what is expected.  However, the tension, pain and constant threat do shape people.  There is a reason the faces from all wars are so similar.  The realization that someone is intent upon killing you each and every day does not reinforce the rational and clear parameters of “normal” life.  You say and do things that can never be understood outside of that context.  I know what they did was wrong, but I also understand why they did it.  I just hope that they are dealt with by those in the military who have that same understanding and not by media and politicians who will never know.

I want the back story.  Were these innocent civilians helping babies and kittens or were these insurgents who were seeking to maim and kill these brave men who wake up every morning (at least the nights they get to sleep) in a hot, sandy place?  These men did not get to sleep in the nice, warm bed that Hilliary Clinton slept in or Leon Panetta left to condemn them.  No one was seeking to kill ANY of the pundits that have expressed HORROR that these men expressed themselves in a manner unbecoming.  Should they have done it?  No.  Should they be punished?  Yes, a reprimand would serve the job well. And those who gasp that the punishment is not severe enough - I ask - how many of their fellow soldiers paid the ultimate price fighting by their side?  How many of their brothers did they pick up the pieces and ship home to a grieving Mom?  How many children have these men saved? How many have been rescued from being made into a human bomb by these soldiers? How many women have they kept from being beaten because they dared to offend the man who claims to be their master?  Where are these pictures? 
War is indeed hell.  We would do well to remember that we did not send them to be guidance counsellors.  We assign them guns for a reason.  When the enemy agrees to fight a gentleman’s war, let’s talk again.

At least the marines did not do what the muslims do to their own war dead.  They sodomized the dead or dying Ghaddafi and drug him into a freezer where they put him on display.

So much for the sacred burial rites of muslims. 

Turns out the whole Islam thing is a big blatant hypocrisy.

Rape a woman then stone her for being unclean. 

Sell little boys for sex, then hang them for being sexually disoriented.

Islamic countries are the biggest porn market on earth, but kill their daughters for dishonoring them.

The list goes on.

No, I’m not Islamophobic.  I am not afraid of Islam.

I despise it. 

Islam is a (violent racist misogynist aggressive unjust criminal exploitative) international hate group…one that should be despised along with the Nazis, KKK, North Korea and Stalin’s Russia.

Thanks for the pics.  My grandfather, Lt. Col Sewell Skelton, served honorably in the Philippines in WWII.  The pictures help to understand what he went through.

I agree with most of the posts - no, they should not have done it; a good stern talking-to is certainly in order (followed by the comfy chair?). 

Barbaric?  Not even close.  Disrespectful?  Most certainly.  Blown out of proportion?  Absolutely.

...make that Russia’s Stalin.

I was in S. Korea when the war started…I remember my father’s war books and stories…of what the NKoreans and Japanese did to our soldiers.  It was utterly horrific.

They cut off a certain appendage and put it in their mouths.  I don’t know to this day whether the soldier was alive when this happened and my dad has passed away so I can’t ask him.

War is Hell…or a sneak preview.

My uncle served on PT boats in the Southwest Pacific theater of operations, and participated in the Battle of Surigao Strait in the Philippines.  Before that, he took part in barge-busting missions against Japanese troops, and the stories he had to tell about Japanese atrocities committed against Allied prisoners who survived attacks on their boats would make your hair stand on end.  The Japanese had no respect for anyone who surrendered, and they treated them accordingly.  Any Japanese who surrendered instead of committing hara-kiri was considered dead by his family at home, and few of them ever returned to Japan after the war.

St. Nikao,
In the book, Marine Sniper 93 Confirmed Kills, Sgt Carlos Hathcock recounts one indident in Vietnam when the grisly procedure you refer to was performed on a living soldier who had been captured in a battle.  Hathcock eventually took the butcher out of action who performed the horrid act with a long range sniper shot.

I posted Col West’s remarks on the urinating incident on my FB page - not to justify the action but to remind people that we are not fighting decent people - and one of my younger cousins, who returned from Iraq in September of 2011 made this comment:

“Look, this isn’t about tit for tat or my wrong is less wrong than your wrong. This is about a group of US soldiers who made a stupider than stupid mistake. As soon as their names are published, their wives, kids, mothers, ect… will be in mortal danger. Some soldiers in Afghanistan will pay with their lives over this video because more extremists will be recruited with it. America will lose ground in the Middle East as a whole, and a lot of of our blood has been spilled to make even a little headway. Its easy for COL West and you and everyone else to reccommend the LEAST SEVERE punishment because you dont have to sit on that Courts Martial Jury and calculate the unimaginable consequences of what they did along with the precendence you set with with their conviction. We can not let this happen again by justifying it in any manner especially with this idea that they can get a pass because the enemy does worse. My god, some of of our soldiers are going to jail over this because this is how the world that we currently live in actually works. Why would we give other young heroes this idea that they could be in any way justified in doing this? COL West’s life isnt completely ruined over this, so it sure is easy for him publish such nonsense.” (my emphasis)

I appreciate her special insight into this situation. We should not let the outrages of those we oppose to incite outrages on our part. It is hard, but our troops have to do the right thing - both because it is right, and because it is dangerous to do otherwise.

We have to be constantly reminded that the enemy we face in this war against Islamic terrorism is a dirty war; it’s filthy, it’s ugly, it’s a no-holds-barred kind of war.  I’ve seen war, too, and it isn’t pretty!  The enemy we face is not the German or Japanese soldier that we fought in World War 2.  He is a guerilla….the deadliest soldier of all, and he’s deadly because you can’t tell him apart from the civilian population.  He doesn’t fight by the rules, because, as far as he’s concerned, there ARE no “rules.”  He thinks that rules are for the weak, and he fights according to the rules of his “religion,” which is a religion of hatred for everyone opposed to it.  We’re not dealing with a sane enemy here, people!  They’re fanatics, and they’ll stop at nothing, and they’ve proven that they will kill their fellow Muslims if they have to.  There’s no way that anyone can fight a so-called “clean war.”  There’s no such thing!

The enemy we’re facing in this war does not believe in fighting by the rules, and they will use every dirty trick in the book…..and some that aren’t…..in their war against the Christian and Jewish world.  I understand our Marines’ frustration and their anger at this implacable enemy who has shown no respect for anyone who doesn’t believe as they do.  I may not agree with what they did, but at the same time, none of us were there, were we?

Ok, I’d like to start with a premise: 

It is impossible to win a culturally sensitive war.  IF we are truly at war, we have NO right to be surprised that people we are counting on to KILL OTHER PEOPLE experience some dehumanizing effects.  With the experiences in my family I’d say it is impossible not to.  If urinating on dead bodies is the worst atrocity we have to deal with, I’d venture to say we had a very “clean” war.  Especially by historical standards.

For some context, I’d recommend Rick Atkinson’s “Day of Battle” volume 2 in his liberation triology.  This volume is a detailed recounting of the invasion of Sicily and Italy in WW2, in much graphic detail.  After you read these soldier’s accounts of how things went at Anzio, Salerno, Monte Cassino, you’ll find that the earlier mentioned event won’t even move your needle.

KTF!...mrb

Sarah:

My own thoughts are . . . um . . . “nuanced and contextualized.”

Keep up the good work!  And don’t forget to be nice to one and all, even when there’s no money changing hands. 

Or at least make sure the client has paid up front with a “no refunds” policy in place before you start pounding your fist on the table.

Jackie:

Should they have done it? No. Should they be punished? Yes, a reprimand would serve the job well.

I agree completely.  It is a sinful thing to desecrate a dead body, no matter how you do it, but this little incident has “misdemeanor” stamped on its forehead.

I’d give those boys a good talking to and warn them that the next lecture could come from Mrs. Clinton herself if they do it again.  That should bring them around.

Our little lieutenant-colonel-in-the-making is back off to Afghanistan once more and I intend to ask for his opinion on the subject.

I’ve sternly counseled him against peeing anywhere outdoors when there’s a proper latrine nearby, but he doesn’t always listen.

In Western eyes, the incident may have “misdemeanor” stamped on it, but our opponents in Afghanistan are not Westerners., For one thing, it was non-Muslims daring to profane Muslim bodies, a horrible effrontery. For a second thing, while I cannot say for sure, I think that, from a Muslim perspective, the dead were martyrs for their faith, and to urinate on them was not only to desecrate a human body, but one that through its death was now especially sacred to Allah.  In their eyes, it was a heinous crime, and one that needs a great revenge.

Islam has the world divided into two groups: Muslims and non-Muslims - those who have submitted to and worship & serve the true god, Allah, and those who worship false gods.  These last must, by some means, be forced to submit to Allah.  There is no spirit among hard-line Muslims of “Live and let live.”  It is all “submit to Allah.”

Episcopalienated—thanks for noting the sinfulness of desecrating dead bodies—sinful, that is, under *Christian* ethics.  I understand that the US is not a “Christian nation” any more, but we still have that worldview as an “undertone” to discussions and decisions on morality.

I didn’t talk much about what should be done about the actions, but personally would go with Allen West’s recommendations, which sound similar to yours and Jackie’s.  I find the liberal hysteria to be incredibly inconsistent since they’re certainly not interested in the sacredness of the human body, nor Christian ethics, but instead in the deconstruction of morality.  So I don’t give their rhetoric much attention and find their comments to be wild and bizarre.  Nobody needs to be strung up by their thumbs for this; a simple firm “no” and some significant painful [but not permanent] consequences, with a “moving right along” attitude would be appropriate to my mind.

THE BATTLE IS NOW WITHIN OUR GATES - not only in our hemisphere, but inside our country—-
Three beheaded bodies found in recent weeks:  http://www.krgv.com/news/expert-says-beheadings-in-u-s-look-like-work-of-cartels/

The drug cartels of Mexico are not just Hispanic, Hezbollah/AlQ, Taliban, etc. are involved in these cartels.  This is why they have gotten so ruthless and brazen.
These international Islamist groups have set up shop Mexico, South and Central America, the US, Europe and Asia - for example, the Ndrangheta: http://www.allgov.com/ViewNews/Mexican_Cartels_Italian_Mafia_Move_Drugs_Through_US_and_Into_Europe_90427

The retired intelligence, law-enforcement, military and para-military are talking about infiltration into US government and law enforcement of both drug cartel and Islamists.
http://www.pjtv.com/v/2930

The Church is also being attacked -  http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2012/01/christian-persecution-top-50-countries.html

AnglicanXn,

By the book you are correct. In fact nearly any interaction with “non-believers” is an abomination and worthy of revenge.  Don’t look our women in the eye, show us the sole of your shoe or extend us a left hand.  Yet, at the same time these same “devout” Muslims drink, smoke and commit adultery without condemnation.  Spousal abuse and rape are common.  Homosexual acts, most commonly on younger men/boys, are an acknowledged practice among large sections of the population.  For Islam to cry out about this rare misdemeanor is the height of hypocrisy. 

The desecration of a body is a violation of general moral principle and that is why these Marines should be reprimanded.  The moral outrage of a morally bankrupt culture, whose sole purpose is to kill those who do not share their beliefs must not weigh into the action taken against the Marines.  I realize that there are many who live a peaceable life in Islam.  We are not fighting them.  The Taliban/Al Qaeda/Hamas… Islamists use their religion to justify their atrocities.  We rely on the Christian foundation of our state to minimize ours.  There is no equivalency in this.

Fr Reed, I know I am technically correct and that a goodly number of Muslims are blazing hypocrites. That hypocrisy extends to their being ravenously outraged by this deed - and as my military cousin notes, they will use it to recruit more people into their movement and radicalize them more fully if they are not already quite radicalized.

Logically, it makes no sense for them to be so upset - but in all practicality, we will reap a ghastly harvest from this incident.

being ravenously outraged by this deed

Two comments come to mind:

1)  Yes, Muslims will be shocked to outraged by this deed.  But this deed in and of itself does not recruit more Muslims to come and attack us and try to overthrow our country and way of life.

2)  The core driving force for Muslim radicalization is the effort by a minority of Muslims (still millions) to re-establish the Islamic Global Caliphate. 

Recall that around 1400AD the Muslim nation controlled ~80% of the known world.  By the 20th century they had shrunk to 4 little insignificant countries.  The radical Islamists had the desire to recreate the Caliphate but not the resources.

Then comes America and the rest of the world knocking on the door to buy oil at any price.  All of a sudden the radical Islamists have all the resources they need.  Where do we think Osama got his money?

My point is, the radical Islamists are on the march to recreate the Caliphate.  Apologizing for ourselves will not help.  What the Marines did is not helpful but it is just fodder for local recruiting efforts.  We are in a titanic battle for the world; as Christians against Muslims.  As two missionary friends of mine note; once the Muslims are in the majority in a country, they are no longer peaceful.

We reap a ghastly harvest by simply breathing.

Yes, war is hell.  And the fall is horrible.  Everyone should read the best seller for months by Hildebrand, “Unbroken”  about Louie Zaparele, the olympic champion in long distant running who was shot down in the Pacific and floated for fourty seven days,  was held prisoner for two and half years where half his fellows were murdered, and then home.  The best book I’ve read in twenty years.  A real picture of depravity and redemption.  Very encouraging.

“My second thought was of Achilles treatment of his enemy’s son’s body as he vanquished him on the battlefield in front of the gates of the city. If you want a picture of the nature of paganism and its savagery, read The Illiad—some gorgeous writing and depictions of brutality without the slightest pang of conscience. The Greeks were not the authors of the world’s Golden Age of literature for no reason.”

True. A theme running through the Iliad is the terribly sad plight of humanity. Both the savagery and humanity are found within our hearts at the same time. After Achilles dragged the body of Hector across the plains of Troy, the father of Hector came to see him:

“As when some cruel spite has befallen a man that he should have killed some one in his own country, and must fly to a great man’s protection in a land of strangers, and all marvel who see him, even so did Achilles marvel as he beheld Priam. The others looked one to another and marvelled also, but Priam besought Achilles saying, “Think of your father, O Achilles like unto the gods, who is such even as I am, on the sad threshold of old age. It may be that those who dwell near him harass him, and there is none to keep war and ruin from him. Yet when he hears of you being still alive, he is glad, and his days are full of hope that he shall see his dear son come home to him from Troy; but I, wretched man that I am, had the bravest in all Troy for my sons, and there is not one of them left. I had fifty sons when the Achaeans came here; nineteen of them were from a single womb, and the others were borne to me by the women of my household. The greater part of them has fierce Mars laid low, and Hector, him who was alone left, him who was the guardian of the city and ourselves, him have you lately slain; therefore I am now come to the ships of the Achaeans to ransom his body from you with a great ransom. Fear, O Achilles, the wrath of heaven; think on your own father and have compassion upon me, who am the more pitiable, for I have steeled myself as no man yet has ever steeled himself before me, and have raised to my lips the hand of him who slew my son.”

Thus spoke Priam, and the heart of Achilles yearned as he bethought him of his father. He took the old man’s hand and moved him gently away. The two wept bitterly—Priam, as he lay at Achilles’ feet, weeping for Hector, and Achilles now for his father and now for Patroclous, till the house was filled with their lamentation. But when Achilles was now sated with grief and had unburthened the bitterness of his sorrow, he left his seat and raised the old man by the hand, in pity for his white hair and beard; then he said, “Unhappy man, you have indeed been greatly daring; how could you venture to come alone to the ships of the Achaeans, and enter the presence of him who has slain so many of your brave sons? You must have iron courage: sit now upon this seat, and for all our grief we will hide our sorrows in our hearts, for weeping will not avail us. The immortals know no care, yet the lot they spin for man is full of sorrow; ... Bear up against it, and let there be some intervals in your sorrow. Mourn as you may for your brave son, you will take nothing by it. You cannot raise him from the dead, ere you do so yet another sorrow shall befall you.”

Much to think on…Thanks…Thanks?