March 23, 2017

January 29, 2012


Trouble in Paradise - Bonnie Anderson vs Jefferts-Schori

The Lead have what they claim to be (and I don’t doubt it’s true) a copy of an email sent by Bonnie Anderson (President of the GC House of Deputies) to all the members of the House. It speaks for itself:

January 29, 2012
Dear Deputies and First Alternates:
A confusing situation has arisen and I’d like to set the record straight:

On Thursday, the Presiding Bishop released a video directed to the House of Deputies expressing her opinion about legislative issues that will come before General Convention this summer. Yesterday, the Office of Communications sent an email to bishops that mischaracterized my response to the video’s release and asked the bishops to forward the video message to their diocese’s deputies.

On Thursday afternoon, I received word from the General Convention Office that the Presiding Bishop, via the Office of Communications, had directed that office to forward a video message from the Presiding Bishop to all deputies. I had neither seen the video nor been consulted about it and so I told the General Convention Office to hold it.

In my nearly 25 years as a deputy, I don’t ever recall the Presiding Bishop speaking directly to the House of Deputies outside of a joint session or without giving the House due notice, while at General Convention. I don’t ever recall a Presiding Bishop corresponding directly with deputies outside of the General Convention, without the knowledge of, or in collaboration with the President.

I was surprised because I thought that the Presiding Bishop, her staff, and I had worked through some important issues of internal communications last fall. I had talked with both Bishop Sauls and the Presiding Bishop and asked that we proceed in a more collegial and cooperative manner. I thought we had agreed to do so.

But while the General Convention Office was holding the video, it was released by the Office of Communications to the whole church just hours before the Presiding Bishop and I were scheduled to arrive in Baltimore where we could have resolved the situation in person.

I am glad to tell you that, while we have been in Baltimore, Bishop Katharine and I have shared a meal and talked in person. I told her that I’m disappointed about what’s happened in the last few days and asked that we proceed toward General Convention with collegiality and a cooperative spirit even—especially—when we disagree. I also told her that I am concerned about the use of churchwide resources to lobby General Convention on only one side of a legislative issue.

Despite this productive conversation, upon direction from the Presiding Bishop, the Office of Communications sent the second email, this time to bishops, that mischaracterized my request that the video be held, thus putting me in a difficult position and making it necessary to spell all of this out.

I am confident that we can get back on track and work productively and faithfully to prepare for General Convention. I will continue to urge that those of us who lead the church talk directly with one another to resolve differences. I will also continue to ask that the resources of the Church Center be deployed in ways that present the full range of opinions on legislation that will determine how the church meets the challenges before us.

Thank you for your commitment to our work. I am looking forward to being with all of you in Indianapolis and to the work that we will accomplish together.

Peace,
Bonnie Anderson, D. D.
President, The House of Deputies

The video is “the first of a series” of videos Schori wanted to make. In this first one she is trying to persuade the Deputies to endorse what are going to be radical changes in the budget. It seems Bonnie Anderson doesn’t want Jefferts-Schori interfering in that process within her own fiefdom.

But what were you expecting? You have a Presiding Bishop who has run roughshod over proper procedure for years now. Not so much fun when it comes back to bite you.


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48 comments

The prospect of these two harridans at each other’s throats over the use of new media to do an end-run around the established communication protocols is just too delicious.

[1] Posted by Greg Griffith on 1-29-2012 at 06:46 PM · [top]

CAT FIGHT!!!!!!

Looks like her imperial majesty KJS has crossed the wrong leader of the Directorate.

I can see KJS clenching her teeth before her mirror, “I’m a primate, da@! it!  I’ll speak to whomever I want.”

[2] Posted by Bill2 on 1-29-2012 at 06:54 PM · [top]

What we’re seeing here is the issue of who’s more important than whom.  “How DARE you cross me!  No, how DARE you cross ME!”  Cat fight?  Sure is!

[3] Posted by cennydd13 on 1-29-2012 at 07:17 PM · [top]

On the Bishops & Deputies list, the church’s leadership is positively enraged by the supposed overreach on the part of the PB

A lady named Ann Fontaine passes on a note purportedly sent to the Bishops by 815’s communications person:

Subject: Last week’s video message from PB

Dear Bishops,

You received this notice Thursday and thank you for your feedback.

A similar note was to be sent simultaneously to HOD deputies and alternates. However, the President of the House of Deputies, along with the Secretary of the General Convention, indicated that distribution to the HOD through their own email list would not be permitted.

In order to effectively assure that members of both houses receive this message, and to assure the HOD deputies and alternates that they were not left out of this process, it would be appreciated if you would forward this message directly to your own HOD deputation.

Thank you.

Neva Rae Fox
Public Affairs Officer

[4] Posted by Pigeon on 1-29-2012 at 07:17 PM · [top]

We are at the point where clergy are not leaders of any sort.  We just don’t have any remainder of an idea of what clergy are for. 

We’re not teachers, because everybody is a mystic, theologian, prophet, whatever via the “Baptismal covenant.”

We’re kind of sacramentalists, but the incredible shrinking church is preparing congregations to go back to MP after the less-than-a-generation assertion of “all Eucharist, all the time.”  Besides, the Sekretariat for Liturgy and Music can expand sacramental work to lay people after soliciting dialogue via web survey or something.

What I seem to keep hearing is that we (clergy) are simply a budget problem for people who don’t need anybody to tell them about a “gospel” they can make up quite well for themselves.

Funny to watch Bps. Schori, Sauls et. al. clutch at a clerical authority they’ve worked so hard to degrade and destroy for the rest of us.  Only a matter of time until ++++BonnieAnderson asserts a special ueber lay primate role and wants a seat at Lambeth and all the other global stuff.

[5] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 1-29-2012 at 07:33 PM · [top]

Spartacus(Bonnie the Good) vs Gaius Claudius Glaber(KJS) in the House of Batiatus (815). Mute the phone and heat up the popcorn cause this has the making of a great show!
Intercessor

[6] Posted by Intercessor on 1-29-2012 at 07:54 PM · [top]

Tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber.

Bonnie - it’s HER church. She and HER COUNSELOR shall do as they please. Get it? Yet?

[7] Posted by Fisherman on 1-29-2012 at 07:57 PM · [top]

Oh come on, David.  Next you’ll be telling us that Stalin had Trotsky assassinated. Oh wait…

[8] Posted by MichaelA on 1-29-2012 at 07:59 PM · [top]

I am looking forward to being with all of you in Indianapolis and to the work that we will accomplish together.

Bonnie expects collegiality in Indianapolis?

I expect the Patriots and the Giants to set a tone of confrontation at the Super Bowl in Indianapolis next Sunday that may just carry over to the TEC super brawl.

[9] Posted by hanks on 1-29-2012 at 08:07 PM · [top]

It’ll be an interesting side-show, but THE AGENDA will march on.  The Holy Grail of SSBs will be initiated officially in 2012, and it will go so well SSMs will be initiated in 2015.

[10] Posted by Bill2 on 1-29-2012 at 08:09 PM · [top]

Unilateral lobbying by one side of an alleged question!  In the Episcopal Organization’s General Convention?  I am shocked, shocked, shocked, I tell you.  Next they will be “ordaining” female “priests” without GC approval or “ordaining” gays “deacons, priests and bishops” against GC legislation, or ...

wait a minute ...

this is a George W. Bush moment, isn’t it?

[11] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 1-29-2012 at 08:16 PM · [top]

KJS??? ...... BHO??? ..... Who’s following who or or getting lessons from who on running roughshod over laws, policies and proceedures? OR is this the another symptom of the breakdon of society?

[12] Posted by DaveB in VT on 1-29-2012 at 08:18 PM · [top]

hanks,

the TEC “super-brawl”. Love it

[13] Posted by David Ould on 1-29-2012 at 08:51 PM · [top]

As a neutral outside observer, let me get a few points clear in my mind.

The Episcopal Church is a hierarchical church (vide all the lawsuits telling courts that that is what they are).  In a hierarchy, some are chiefs and some are Indians, no?

How to tell who gets to be a chief?  Well, it has to be ordination, since that’s the summit and purpose of being a member of the church; if laity and clergy were really equal in all things, including access to and wielding of power, then what is all the fuss over women priests/women bishops/LGBT deacons, priests and bishops?  If a lay leader is every bit as good as an ordained leader, why the rush to fasten a dogcollar around the neck of every hog, dog and divil?

Clergy themselves have a pecking order, and the higher-ups in the hierarchy are the bishops, and the boss of the bishops is the Big Cheese, otherwise known as the Presiding Bishop, self-described as a Primate (where, correct me if I’m wrong, it was not formerly the custom in The Episcopal Church to award the title of Primate to the PB who was primus inter pares?).  But she has to be a Primate, so as to be on terms of equality with the other primates and archbishops in the other national churches of the Anglican Communion.

But wait! She’s not just any old primate; The Episcopal Church is an international body!  “16 countries and 110 dioceses” as the website has it.  So she’s the (de facto if not de jure, at least in her own mind) head of a world-wide denomination.  That has got to make her at least the equal of the Pope (since the poor old Archbishop of Canterbury is not the boss of the Anglican Communion, as many take pains to point out whenever he makes an effort to halt the Gadarene rush over the cliff of The New Thing).

That being so, I’m sorry, President Anderson, but you’re only a laywoman.  The Pope gets to talk to whomever she wants to talk to without needing your permission.  Hierarchy, hierarchy, hierarchy - and you’re the one getting the pointy end of the stick now.  How does it feel?

grin

[14] Posted by Martha on 1-29-2012 at 08:57 PM · [top]

How much voice do the laity have in ACNA?

[15] Posted by RMBruton on 1-29-2012 at 09:27 PM · [top]

The shifting alliances are very interesting.  First it was Anderson vs. +Sauls. Back in September at the HOB meeting, Bishop Sauls suggested a massive reorganization that would put mission first and reduce overhead (which is currently 47% and does not meet Better Business Bureau standards for non-profit overhead). His suggested budget was $81 million for the triennium and would be funded by 1% giving to the national church from every parish. http://archive.episcopalchurch.org/79425_129893_ENG_HTM.htm

Bonnie Anderson was miffed that she didn’t get briefed before his plan was rolled out. Now we have Bonnie championing a not-so-austere budget of $91.5 while +Sauls and +Schori want the bloated $105 million budget. Not a peep about lightening the burden on the parishes to fund the bureaucracy of TECinc.

[16] Posted by Ralinda on 1-29-2012 at 09:42 PM · [top]

My general understanding of Bonnie Anderson is that, while a thoroughgoing liberal, she is an honorable person. Bp Schori, on the other hand…

[17] Posted by AnglicanXn on 1-29-2012 at 09:44 PM · [top]

Both budgets are based on an “Asking” (whether 15% or 19%).  Out of curiosity, do the budgets anticipate that the “asking” will be met 100%, or are they realistic in acknowledging that some dioceses won’t meet it? And how do the budget proposals make reasonable predictions on what diocesan income will be?  With a steadily declining ASA (and in general, people who are on the rolls but don’t actually attend do not contribute as much to the plate and pledge, although there are exceptions), and continuing poor economy, it is unlikely that most dioceses will be seeing big income increases anytime soon.
  The duel between Schori and Anderson has been evident for quite a while- as there has been a great deal of friction between the “senior house” and the bishops over the last several years.  Generally, it being a church, I would side with the bishops.  But one does wonder when it became a power of the PB to appoint a COO for the church (Sauls), and for that matter, did GC actually vote to create the office?  And, given that the HoB has given up the only real duty and authority it had- to guard the doctrine of the church- it is not a surprise that the lay/clergy revisionists at the heart of GC want to take over.
  Ironic, isn’t it, that there is an ongoing power struggle over an increasingly centralized authority, while both sides spout platitudes about their budgets returning mission to the local level.
  My prediction is that you will see quite a show at GC. One wonders for how many people official, canon recognized, GC voted gay “marriage” will be the last straw- and cause them to leave TEC.  I guess we will find out this summer.

[18] Posted by tjmcmahon on 1-29-2012 at 10:38 PM · [top]

One wonders whether a nimble, prophetic, missional church would be so embroiled in litigation, the expenses of which appear to be well hidden in the budget, if they are not completely off budget.

[19] Posted by ABQ Methodist on 1-29-2012 at 10:49 PM · [top]

15.  Diocese-wise, ACNA laity have considerable voice.  Standing Committees, Ecclesiastical Courts, Deaneries, etc still have their share of lay membership.  I serve as a Delegate to Diocesan Convention.

[20] Posted by cennydd13 on 1-29-2012 at 11:20 PM · [top]

the Gadarene rush over the cliff of The New Thing

Brilliant!

[21] Posted by Rich Gabrielson on 1-29-2012 at 11:24 PM · [top]

Mrs Anderson obviously does not understand that which the orthodox side of TEC has been forced to realize, which is that Mrs Schori is She Who Must Be Obeyed, no ifs, ands, or buts. Perhaps Bonnie will be a better leader when she finally comprehends this reality and responds to it in a way which stymies Katharine’s wrongheaded thinking.

[22] Posted by A Senior Priest on 1-29-2012 at 11:24 PM · [top]

Fascinating to see the slow meltdown within the Worldwide Communion of the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States of America under the supreme monarchical authority of its esteemed leader the Pope/Empress Bishop Katherine Jeffersts-Schori. This is what happens when an organisation which is clearly a hierarchical imperial autocratic structure tries to also do democracy. If only the President of the House of Deputies would aquiesce to the supreme will of its Pope/Empress then there would be no more problems or controversies. It is also interesting to witness one extreme left liberal trying to outflank another on the extreme left flank.

Of course the parishes and dioceses have to stump up the money to feed this monstrous centralist regime, and they better come good with the money otherwise humble parishioners will find themselves subjects of law suits to handover a tithe from all their personal property and retirement funds. All firstborn members with be liable to tender a double portion in accordance with well established Biblical principals of them inheriting a double portion of their parents’ estates. Hundreds of thousands of homosexuals, who largely come from the wealthy non-breeding well educated upper middle classes with high disposable income, will be able to pay handsome fees to cover the high cost of developing new liturgies for the blessing of their same sex unions. And with the “New Thing” about to start bringing in masses of the marginalised, the extra money flowing in will amount to hundreds of millions, not mere tens of millions. Once KJS realises how much extra income could be flowing into her coffers there will be no stopping her expanding her empire and deepening her influence not only into the lives of the dioceses but into the parishes as well, thus making diocesan bishops and diocesan councils redundant. Even Henry VIII would be proud of the way she yields her divinely given right to reign, together with her Lord Chancellor David Booth Beers and Vicegerent Stacey Sauls. It won’t be long before General Convention (Parliament) is disbanded altogether, and the first step is to reduce the frequency of its meetings from 3 yearly to 5 yearly to decadally, to hardly ever. The Pope of the Roman Catholic Church could only dream about having such power

[23] Posted by fyffee on 1-30-2012 at 01:39 AM · [top]

Assuming that David Cameron can’t convince KJS to move into Lambeth Palace in 2015, one assumes that the “loyal” deputies (as opposed to the ones to be replaced immediately after convention) will make her PB for life.

[24] Posted by tjmcmahon on 1-30-2012 at 07:33 AM · [top]

Some years ago an evangelism program noted that the clergy were one per cent of the members of the church and lay people were 99 per cent. The Episcopal Church now has some 13K clergy and between 700 and 800K ASA members, which now makes the lay membership either 98.4 or 98.2 per cent.

The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America was the first Anglican body to include lay people in its government. In England and Ireland Parliament represented the lay people. The Episcopal Church in Scotland, having seen first hand what lay Ruling Elders did in the established Presbyterian church continued to govern itself by bishops and clergy.

I think that those who want to reform the governing structures of the Episcopal Church are on the right track. We need less governance and more gospel.

[25] Posted by TomRightmyer on 1-30-2012 at 08:05 AM · [top]

At root, this isn’t about governing structures.  It’s about power.  In TEC, power means access to and control of money.  In this case, they are specifically referring to the funding of the national church in an age of decline.  Here is what I suspect (although it’s hard to read through all the coded Episco-babble in that video).  “Looking forward” means funding the priorities of the national church.  “Looking backwards” means spending the money on yourself.  One thing is certain.  KJS is not advocating a reduction in the power of the center.  She represents the interests of the center.   

The real civil war in TEC is about to begin.  It’s the war between those that still have money, and those that want it.  The pawns will be those dioceses in financial distress, but still in possession of substantial assets.  KJS has acquired power in her tenure, and she plans to use it.  She needs that money.  She is very ‘forward-looking.”

carl

[26] Posted by carl on 1-30-2012 at 08:28 AM · [top]

#25—Historically, the PECUSA was the first Anglican body to call a meeting for the approval of a new constitution. This meeting was called by the laity.  At the first “General Convention”, in Philadelphia, there were only three bishops and they participated equally in what became the House of Deputies. The deputies from the North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, argued that they didn’t need bishops at THEIR meeting and for that matter didn’t need bishops in America, at all.

[27] Posted by David Keller on 1-30-2012 at 11:09 AM · [top]

When you model the Church polity on the Civil polity, you end up with Church politics that look like Civil politics.  In the United States over the past 200 years, the latter have become increasingly dysfunctional. I am no longer surprised that the former has likewise become so.

We live in a fallen world, and I simply do not know if there is a better Civil polity.  In my older years, however, I have come to realize that there is probably more than one polity better than TEC’s polity.

Nevertheless, we get the government we deserve.

[28] Posted by Marion R. on 1-30-2012 at 12:23 PM · [top]

Having won the political battle over orthodox elements within TEC, they are no longer united by a common foe and objective.

Having said that, I am reminded that the AMIA and ACNA are not immune to the same type of internal rivalry.

[29] Posted by Going Home on 1-30-2012 at 12:41 PM · [top]

Well, it seems to me that, at least in the ACNA, our mode of government is not quite the same as it is in TEC;  we don’t have a General Convention (thank God!),  which is stacked with so many departments, commissions, committees, councils, programs, etc, to the point where it has become dysfunctional, expensive, and completely irrelevant to the purpose of the Church….which is to carry the message of Jesus Christ to all peoples…. something which Schori and Company seem to have forgotten and ignored.

[30] Posted by cennydd13 on 1-30-2012 at 12:53 PM · [top]

Well, if Bonnie sees fit to “hold” videos in that fashion, Katharine should just post it up on youtube next time. Bonnie can post her own youtube video in response if she doesn’t like it. Maybe they should both start vlogs. It would keep them out of trouble.

[31] Posted by SpongJohn SquarePantheist on 1-30-2012 at 01:05 PM · [top]

And it isn’t even close to July yet! If this is G.C. 2012 training camp, we are in for a fun pre-season.

[32] Posted by Undergroundpewster on 1-30-2012 at 01:56 PM · [top]

Don’t you imagine that Bonnie whosit is concerned about rumored changes in her bailiwick? Loss of power and influence? If we do end up with a unicameral house, well, well, every-one’s ox is going to be gored…

[33] Posted by FrVan on 1-30-2012 at 04:13 PM · [top]

The conflicts of Stalin v Trotsky and Khruschev v Molotov were nothing compared to what I anticipate is going on here, although I suppose even the current head of TEC would draw the line at defenestration as a solution.  Too bad we can’t wire a fly on the wall and get all the details…

[34] Posted by sophy0075 on 1-30-2012 at 04:20 PM · [top]

#33—I am (gratefully) out of the TEC loop these days, but I think they are talking about restructuring the top heavy management at 815, not GC.  Having participated in 3 GC’s, they are really a very big waste.  More people attend GC that the Democratic National Convention.  They have cut it down considerably in recent years, but it really still is a waste. It is 99% political and 1% religious. Just look at the resolutions of EC this week.  I used to say if we would get rid of the “save the zebras in Mongolia” resolutions, we’d be done in three days. I can say with certainty that PB Griswold and Georger Werner really were looking at the re-structuring of 815 before the 2003 GC. They approaced several people about serving on a re-vamped Commsission on the Structure of the Church. But post-2003, that idea hit the back burner due to “damage control” on other issues, and a number of key players either not being re-elecetd to GC or just throwing their hands up. BTW—Bonnie says a great deal of the problem is the cost of the building. In 2000 a number of us proposed selling 815 and moving out of New York to an airline hub like Atlanta, Orlando or Dallas. You’d have thought we had proposed killing somebody’s grandmother on the pool table at the Country Club.  It looks like we were right afterall.

[35] Posted by David Keller on 1-30-2012 at 05:09 PM · [top]

Can we hand them each a light sabre…stand back, and watch the fun?

[36] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 1-30-2012 at 06:10 PM · [top]

Mud wrestling would be more entertaining.

[37] Posted by SpongJohn SquarePantheist on 1-30-2012 at 06:19 PM · [top]

Mrs. Shori’s goal is to dissolve the HoD for budgetary reasons and keep the whole power and money pie for herself… so she can continue closing parishes and selling the properties.  She seems to be the rare personality/gender combination of a female narcissist… with dictatorial traits, an extreme ego-centricism.

Submitting or conforming to a higher or equal power, law or authority is not possible for such a narcissist.  Ironically, this also means that actual worship of GOD is not possible until this extreme sort of narcissist is by a miracle and act of GOD, able to surrender, be convicted of sin, converted and made new in Christ. 

Bet it was not any fun to play Monopoly with KJS as a child if she would agreed to play with you at all.

LINK
LINK

[38] Posted by St. Nikao on 1-31-2012 at 04:56 AM · [top]

She acts as if she owns TEC….which she most certainly does not.

[39] Posted by cennydd13 on 1-31-2012 at 09:35 AM · [top]

I note that as a background to this infighting over whether more money should go from parishes and diocese to the national church or not was a presentation by Kirk Hadaway.  It is available online, but note that, according to an article on episcopalcafe:

Particularly illuminating was a section of tweets during a presentation by TEC’s go-to guys for trends and data, Kirk Hadaway and Matthew Price. Lee had many observations and extrapolations, and among them we find:

Hadaway showing membership of TEC domestic diocs 1951-2010, pretty consistent, steady (not precipitous) decline since early 1970s
Hadaway speaks to graph of 1991-2010 membership stats, decline since about 2002, abt 50K members per yr decline

Hadaway says since 2002/03 pctge decline began to overshadow any increases in membership

Hadaway: decline since 2002 has been more sizable; lots of graphs, too quick to appreciate & understand; will look at PPT later?

Leading us to wonder: shouldn’t we all be paying pretty close attention to the facts and figures Hadaway and Price have presented to Executive Council?

We had best take an interest! Slide after slide tells the story of a numerically diminishing denomination, with a few bright spots and windows of opportunity (churches with younger members are more likely to grow; the Sunbelt as a place of church vitality).

The news is not great:

... slipping domestic membership

... fewer growing churches and more declining churches

... fewer pledge cards, members, communicants in good standing, and Easter pew-sitters

On a slide titled Broader Measures of Church Vitality, researchers use a number of measurements [I believe from 2002-2010] to “speak to a parish’s integration in the community and the possibility for future growth.”

•Change in church school enrollment: -33%
•Change in number of marriages performed: -41%
•Change in number of burials/funerals: -21%
•Change in the number of child baptisms: -36%
•Change in the number of adult baptisms: -40%
•Change in the number of confirmations: -32%

Note that, at the time this occurred in 2003, while TEC spokespeople were saying that on CNN this would “all blow over”, more objective estimates were that, unless TEC could find a way to provide adequate protection for the orthodox to continue in the church (remember the “panel of reference”?), the loss might be 20% of total membership, but as that was a particularly active subgroup, that would mean a loss of about a third of ASA, those actively involved in the parish, and plate and pledge, and a disproportionate number of those would be young families.  Looks like that is about what happened.

[40] Posted by pendennis88 on 1-31-2012 at 10:36 AM · [top]

I confess that under the clock of restructuring General Convention, which most reasonable people will agree has become far to expensive, it appears to be a power grab by the PB.  It is classic insurgency tactics, they have gain power and now it is time to consolidate all the power.  Even so, General Convention is far too expensive, and it is increasingly assuming authority that was not envisioned.
  To illustrate, when Bonnie Anderson and the PB were both at Sewanee for a liturgy, Anderson demanded to have a chair placed in the nave that was of equal stature, and in equal prominence to the PB!  So at least in her mind, the presiding officer of a council that meets every three years is equal to the Presiding Bishop of TEC.  I am no fan of KJS, she too has assumed power that I do not believe was envisioned, but the office of PB clearly has more authority than the President of the House of Deputies.

[41] Posted by dazed&confused; on 1-31-2012 at 11:54 AM · [top]

Right on, dazed&confused;.  Since we can just vote on core beliefs, why not elevate temporary, elected officers to roles once reflecting a permanent consecration to preach the gospel and minister the sacraments?

Next we should have the Wardens and Treasurers of our congregations at the altar, vestry votes on sermon topics and content, etc.

Not totally blaming the laity for this mess - the Bishops in particular degraded clerical ministry by conflating it the CEO model.

[42] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 1-31-2012 at 12:16 PM · [top]

I have but one word:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…

Now she’s even eating her own. TEC is truly starving…

[43] Posted by Amazed&Graced; on 2-2-2012 at 08:22 AM · [top]

Dang.  I’m late to the party and the video’s been pulled.

[44] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 2-2-2012 at 11:32 AM · [top]

False alarm - I got it.  Whew.

[45] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 2-2-2012 at 11:34 AM · [top]

43.  It seems to me that not too long ago, I predicted that this was going to happen.  Now it looks like the fireworks are about to start at General Convention, and it’s going to be very interesting to watch.  I just hope it doesn’t turn my stomach.

[46] Posted by cennydd13 on 2-2-2012 at 01:25 PM · [top]

cennydd13, pretty much everything that evil excuse for a worldwide religious leader does turns my stomach. I make no predictions about which escalator I’m gonna take after I take my last breath, but I am pretty certain that IF I have to take the down escalator, I will see her at the bottom, and thank God for her, because Lucifer will be SO BUSY WITH HER, he won’t have time for the rest of us…

Live free or die…

[47] Posted by Amazed&Graced; on 2-3-2012 at 08:26 AM · [top]

If only….....

[48] Posted by cennydd13 on 2-3-2012 at 11:19 AM · [top]

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