More sharing to follow the Sweat Lodge…

This whole pretense and mockery of truth is perhaps the most outrageous waste of time and money in the history of Christianity!  “Process.  Blah, blah, blah.  Listening.  Blah, blah, blah.  Conversation.  Blah, blah, blah.  Openness, diversity, honesty.”  It’s nothing short of brainwashing into a Christ-less Christianity and a cross-less discipleship.  We cannot be disciples on our own terms.  If we claim to be Christians we say and do what Christ commands us to say and do - especially if it is uncomfortable, unpopular, offensive, or divisive (as He was!).  That’s the deal.

Okay, I now understand that you are REALLY NICE and I still disagree with you.

Now what?

If only Athanasius and Arius had been able to hold hands in an indaba session!

Matt - I love the headline.

Katherine—
Are you suggesting that the way Athanasius and Arius behaved towards each other is an appropriate model for Christians to follow?

The common mission is more important than what separates us. The common mission is the MDG’s

I thought the common mission was about sharing the good news of Jesus Christ?

The common mission is the MDG’s.

They didn’t tell me that when I was in seminary.  I remember something about the common mission being the Kingdom of God.  Now, the MDG’s may be a result of that, but I hope there remains a difference between the common mission of the United Nations and the common mission of the church.

The common mission is the MDG’s

Since the MDG’s end in 2015 and the Lambeth is not until 2018, isn’t it very irresponsible for the bishops not to figure out a common mission that might last them all the way through to the next Lambeth, I mean what are they going to do for those three years?

Pat themselves on the back? Have more parades?

Matt+, thanks for the live blogging.  You’re amazingly fast and accurate at that.  Well done.

But where’s the commentary?  I hope that will follow in due time, and I’m sure you didn’t want to wait in getting the live blogging out for people to respond to.  I’ve listened to the live broadcast, and I would only add that I’m disappointed in the lack of pointed questions being pressed by the journalists at the press conference.

I wasn’t surprised a bit at the spin attempts by +Colin Johnson of Toronto, especially his valiant efforts to change the subject and focus on the infamous MDG’s.  Nor was I surprised, just disappointed, at ++Ian Earnest’s remarks.  As ++Aspinall pointed out by way of introduction, the Archbishop of the Indian Ocean is not only the current Chairman of CAPA but also a key member of the Lambeth Design Group.  He has a vested interest in the success of the indaba format etc., just as +Tom Wright has a huge vested interest in the success of the Windsor Report and process.  But both are clearly sincere and dedicated Com Cons as well.

Of course, all is NOT well, if all the bishops are hugging.  Athanasius wouldn’t have hugged Arius, or Irenaeus have hugged Marcion, Valentinus, or Basilides, nor would Augustine have hugged Pelagius etc. 

There is still the problem of squarely facing the call to ex-communicate and shun open heretics, as mandated by biblical texts like 1 Cor. 5:11 and Romans 16:17-18.  Of course, what these three bishops (including ++Aspinall of Australia) represent is just the public face that the organizers of Lambeth 2008 want us to see and who spout the kind of reassuring “All is well” stuff they want us so desperately to hear.  But fortunately, there are plenty of other bishops present who will give us a more honest and revealing glimpse into what’s really been happening in Kent.

But if the indaba groups do lead to prominent, orthodox GS leaders like ++Earnest (or ++Chew or ++Gomez, both of whom have been remarkably silent and out of sight so far) compromising that need for shunning open heretics and even hugging their theological enemies, then it only underlines and confirms the correctness of the 230+ bishops who stayed away and refused to participate in such an expensive and scandalous public farce.

David Handy+

Good to know they are all hugging.  Now, how about TEC stops suing 7 provinces and many thousands of parishioners.

I say again, be sure and tell the children that haven’t eaten in a couple of days that our “church” had a march, and a great lunch in their honor.  Oh, and then didn’t do a blasted thing about the weakening of the body of Christ that has been going on for years. 

What a huge waste of resources.  However,I am glad they had a good time at the party, met the queen, and determined that they all like each other.

David Handy, I think you are very right about +Ernest and +Chew and +Gomez.  I just left two comments on the GAFCON Primates Council thread below which discuss this very real threat, that institutional loyalty will cause some of these orthodox Primates to shun GAFCON.
(+Ernest is now also chairman of the Anglican Francophone Network, +Chew is on the Windsor Continuation Group)

my two comments are here:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/14508/

Matt+, Let me second NRA’s comment and thanks above.  Not only are you willing to do it (given the nonsense coming out of some bishop’s mouths, I would be “kicking the furniture” by now), but you are a remarkable typist.  My 40 wpm would never hold up, especially given the propensity of Anglicans to use words like propensity.

The “Athanasius” of this conference so far is ++Deng Bul.  We haven’t heard about him hugging anyone so far.  And as was pointed out by a couple people last night, KJS and others have reassigned VGR to a much lower profile since the good bishop of Sudan made his remarks.

#5, Eclipse, perhaps you are thinking of Nicholas of Myra (St. Nick of legend) who reportedly slapped Arius to the ground at the first council of Nicaea.  He was expelled and defrocked for this but reinstated and reseated the next day after several members dreamed of Jesus handing him a Gospel book and Mary handing him a omophorion.  This tradition is not mentioned by Methodius but it could have happened.  Here is an icon of him.

#15 tjmcmahon, I agree on your assessment of ++Deng Bul—he belongs in the “heroes of faith” category. 

I would add ++Mouneer Anis to that list.  Looks at his comments on his blog site:  http://episcopalegypt.blogspot.com/ 

His realism and cynicism about TEC are refreshing.

David Handy’s comments are right on the mark.  Can you imagine what would have happened to the Christian church if the early church fathers had taken this Rodney King (can we just get along) attitude toward the many heretics of their day.  The Christian church would have died.

The household is more than the bedroom. Boy, they’re really getting intellectual on this, aren’t they?

“The household is more than the bedroom. Boy, they’re really getting intellectual on this, aren’t they?” Yes, my wife would probably agree, on the other hand I really like the possibilities of considering the whole house as the bedroom.

The scripture tells us that we can not serve two masters. The MDG’s are about reducing the entire world to a plantation status. The corporate interests as masters, the “governments” as overseers, and the vast majority of the people as slaves (and no matter how much the majority of the revisionists, who are drinking the koolaid that KJS, the ABoC and the rest might not want to believe it, they will be among those slaves, perhaps even eliminated when they no longer serve their purpose. History shows many examples of useful idiots being discarded once they no longer are necessary) serving the almighty dollar, euro, yuan or whatever is used to label the golden idol.

There won’t be justice, and in no way can you consider such a system to be of peace. It’s an unmaking of all that was good, decent or indicative of freedom in our world.

monologistos -

Well, I just thought Matt was funny.  I also have my own ‘hugging’ stories - A person on a vestry stating that a pastoral candidate was their choice because, “He began hugging everyone” - my remark was “Is this new the indicator of Spirituality?” 

“In the Multitude of Hugs there wanted not sin, but he who refrains his arms is wise”

I note that Nicholas is not hugging anyone… except the Bible… obviously one of those horrid conservatives…

I simply can’t imagine a press conference with a participant present from the spouses conference (Rev Jackie Crey), where no questions were asked about yesterday’s outrageous performance that accused one or more Anglican Bishops of being wife beaters and the rest of them as being capable of it.

Non illegitimis carborundum est!

This is touchy feel-good - no one is going to raise anything <gasp> controversial. It might look as if they approved of wife beating. That was so deeply offensive - I wish someone would address it.

Nice title. But if they don’t start addressing the real issues, including the authority of Scripture and the basics of faith, the hugs and kisses will end in schism. It seems that the divide is so clear that none of the Reverends has changed minds despite hearing others. Did someone was so naive to think that anyone in Lambeth would change his/her mind?

I’m an advocate of hugs between friends ... granting appropriateness.  But the Leo Buscaglia solution of hugs all around as the universal solution to the world’s problems is nonsense.  Arius probably deserved to be slapped down.  Perhaps we all do.  But I try not to put myself in the place of the saints, not being one.  If Nicholas did that today, he’d be in jail before the sun sets on the slapee’s wrath.  Of course, VGR would be happy for any kind of attention, being a slap happy kind of fellow.

I almost wish that a bishop would follow the Goldy example of St Nicholas and start punching out heretics.

Because he’s been brought up through previous postings here above:
In the year 325 St Nicholas was a participant in the First Ecumenical Council. This Council proclaimed the Nicean Symbol of Faith, and he stood up against the heretic Arius with the likes of Sts Sylvester the Bishop of Rome (January 2), Alexander of Alexandria (May 29), Spyridon of Trimythontos (December 12) and other Fathers of the Council.
St Nicholas, fired with zeal for the Lord, assailed the heretic Arius with his words, and also struck him upon the face. For this reason, he was deprived of the emblems of his episcopal rank and placed under guard. But several of the holy Fathers had the same vision, seeing the Lord Himself and the Mother of God returning to him the Gospel and omophorion. The Fathers of the Council agreed that the audacity of the saint was pleasing to God, and restored the saint to the office of bishop.
Having returned to his own diocese, the saint brought it peace and blessings, sowing the word of Truth, uprooting heresy, nourishing his flock with sound doctrine, and also providing food for their bodies.
_______________________________________
Notice the year when this meeting took place? Notice how Nicholas was dealt with for striking Arius? Notice the visions by different bishops? And then notice how he went back to Myra and strengthened the Church? Think anything like that is happening here?
_________________________________
A very good comment on the treatment of these issues by Orthodox Christian Churches is here: (especially the last two paragraphs) http://conciliarpress.pinnaclecart.com/index.php?p=page&page_id=books_hopko_same-sex_attraction

Margaret:
Notice that there’s no contemporary historical evidence that Nicholas was even at Nicea, nevermind that he acted as described?  Notice that this legend comes from a source written, oh, 900 years later?
If you’re going to argue, please argue from actual evidence.

Q: The process sees well designed to include all the voices here. When will the LGBT voice be heard?

Was this question actually serious? Isn’t half the self select sessions dedicated to just that presented by LGBT?
What about the “Lambeth Witness” and GR? Isn’t a significant number of the vendors there pushing LGBT agenda?

The real question is will th “LGBT voice” ever shut up long enough for people to actually discuss the issue?

Ruach, do you feel the same way about the Resurrection?  Where’s the actual evidence?  St. Camber preserve us! 

How much of the MDG funds are going toward finding the LGBT gene, developing a cure for LGBT, or at least helping the the poor souls understand that their behavior is the cause of their problems? 

How much of MDG funding is going to Anglican churches and organizations that have a proven record of success in helping LGBT change their behavior?

Physican cure thyself first.

[20] mari,

Could you please elaborate on how you understand the Millenium Development Goals (i.e., the 8 goals themselves, not the program to get every national government in the developed world to spend a fraction of a percent on the (mysteriously unexplained) means for achieving the goals? Or, is it that latter part about which you are so pessimistic? I would like to understand how you conclude that the various assertions in your referenced comment follow from the MDGs.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[32] MasterServer,

You asked

How much of the MDG funds are going toward finding the LGBT gene, developing a cure for LGBT, or at least helping the the poor souls understand that their behavior is the cause of their problems?

I don’t know that any of the MDG funds are going toward those specific causes, but TEC does support an organization (at least through the use of their name and cachet—I am not sure any money currently goes to the organization from TEC) that will, potentially, greatly assist in the cure for the L & G, and possibly also for the B.

Just as soon as the researchers develop a test that shows whether an unborn child will be either L, G or B, the lobbying group RCRC¹, who claim TEC as a supporting body, will have yet one more reason unlimited access to legal means of killing unborn babies² should remain available to all female human beings in the U.S. Thus, if RCRC succeeds politically, once the said test becomes available, curing same sex attraction will be available to any pregnant woman carrying an unborn baby tested positive for the problem, who wishes to cure it.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

———————-
¹ — RCRC is the acronym for the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice.
² — “killing unborn babies” is what RCRC refers to euphemistically (for obvious PR reasons) as reproductive choice or abortion.

It is glad I am that FrVan has a wife. He sounds like a whole lotta fun, which could get dangerous. (teeheehee)

“The household is more than the bedroom. Boy, they’re really getting intellectual on this, aren’t they?” Yes, my wife would probably agree, on the other hand I really like the possibilities of considering the whole house as the bedroom.”

Andrew Carey is the one who has it right with the “navel gazing”. 

I’d also add “let’s keep talking until you agree with me” or the “Brainwash Conference 2008”. 

See you all later, I must run off now and whip my traditional hide…

Hmmm.  Let’s change the subject fast.  Thanks to Karen B. (#14), TJ (#15), and hanks (#17) for their kind words of strong endorsement and agreement with my #11.  Such affirmation is always welcome.  I agree with you all too.

David Handy+

Orombi must be missing the hugs and navel gazing:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4438729.ece

#37 David Handy

How about hugs all around?

Thanks, Harry, for posting the link to ++Orombi’s marvelous article.  It’s vintage Henry Orombi, which means it’s superb in every way.  I urge everyone to read this splendid statement about why the Ugandan bishops aren’t attending this Lambeth Conference.

It makes me prouder than ever to have a Ugandan church as my home church: Eternity Anglican in Richmond, VA.

David Handy+

oscewicee #24, I AGREE! Let’s kick their buts!:)

OR BUTTS AS THE CASE MAY BE….

It’s a fur piece to kick, Fr. Van. Maybe we could get the Stand Firm folks to raise money to send us to England for the purpose?

oscewicee: It’s a sacrifice I’d be willing to make!

Martial Artist, While I laud the stated goals that the UN uses to frame their MDG’s, they seem little more than false fronts for political agenda.

The goals are the reduction of what is framed as “extreme poverty and hunger”, but those they label as “extreme” are those who live on less than a dollar a day. While there are many, many poor people worldwide, and they desperately need help, there are also many, many poor people who suffer extreme hunger in the developing, as well as the developed world who would fall between the cracks, as they are in situations where they are obliged to pay first and second world prices, and while their limited wages might seem high compared to those living in the third world, the costs of living are dramatically higher, and so they are still ignored and condemned to extreme poverty. The resources being used to fund these MDG’s come directly at the expense of funding to help the poor in the countries being asked to give the most. From what we’ve seen with the UN’s claims of aid to help the poor in the past, very little actually ends up actually reaching the poor, the majority of the aid has been funneled into the pockets of UN officials, their relatives pockets, the many NGO’s who are staffed with corporate and other profiteers. There’s also a claim to “achieve full and productive employment and decent work for all, including women and young people. Do you actually see any attempts to actually achieve this? We do see the corporate and foreign interests attempting to exploit markets to drag down wages, and exploit human and environmental protections in countries that do not respect such laudable goals.

The second is achieving universal access to primary education, a laudable goal, but given the fact that there isn’t really much emphasis on this in what has been available to read about it, I have to wonder about the commitment to it. The Davos contingent seem more interested in treating the peoples of the world as being secondary to the apportionment of power to the unelected and unanswerable, under their brave new world of the new world order.

Third is the promotion of gender equality and empowering “women”, the stated claim is improving the representation of women in primary and secondary education. After the joke that was that global conference on women’s issues in China, I believe, during the Clinton administration, they claimed to be working to improve things for women around the world, but what has come about since has been exclusively in the interest of “activism” for the few pet issues of women who live above the glass ceiling. I cancelled my membership in NOW in the mid ‘90s, because to them, the only issues that mattered were sexuality, and glass ceiling issues, for example, that there just aren’t enough female CEO’s. The rest of us were supposed to be satisfied with “take your daughter to work day”. As a woman, a traditional feminist, and mother of a daughter, I would be much happier with increased opportunity and empowerment of the poor and lower middle classes, around the world.

Fourth, the reduction of the child mortality rate. Considering their narrow POV on goal one, and what we’ve seen in the developed world (more diagnosis’ of malnutrition and anemia than we had during the great depression, and discoveries that poor children in the US are suffering from vitamin deficiences, ie.. vitamin D deficiency, and diagnosis’ of poor children with the rickets (not talking about immigrant children, but poor citizen children)), what has been the upshot of the funding of MDG’s thus far has not aleviated those problems in the third world, but they have lead to the reintroduction of the same kinds of dire poverty and suffering to the desperately poor in the US. To me MDG’s have been shown to be a tool for the corrupt to exploit, like shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic, foolhardy and negligent, they don’t achieve their stated aims, and are only loopholes for the diversion of assets into the pockets of the wealthy and powerful, so as to more easily weaken and exploit the ever increasing number of poor in what was once the developed world.

Fifth, improve maternal health, again, laudable, but how? Poverty and genocide, increased by distribution of MDG funding thus far..

Sixth, the fight against HIV/AIDS, malaria, etc.. reversing the spread of HIV/AIDS is important, but they aren’t actually working to do this. The PC police disrespect the intelligence and values of people in the third world, by claiming that prostitution and licentiousness are part of their culture, and that it’s offensive to instruct them that such behaviors lead to the spread of HIV/AIDS, of course the same PC police were offended here in the ‘80s when the people were told the same thing. Regarding what has been done with MDG funding thus far on HIV/AIDS, the IAVI (International AIDS Vaccine Initiative) has promoted the usage of aid to be used as bribes to convince African governments to allow drug trials to be conducted. If you like, google for yourself about the actions of the IAVI, Bill Gates, the Majengo Clinic, KAVI and you’ll find just the tip of the iceberg about the atrocity that is the REASON why the rates of AIDS has dramatically increased in Africa. Bill Gates was instrumental, along with hypocrites like Bono, in cutting backdoor deals for pharamceutical giants to use the poor in Africa as lab rats, basically because they were hoping to make a killing off their investments if the vaccine proved successful, even marginally. It was a failure, and more lives have been lost.. but has the UN even deigned to consider this? NO. Expect more of this to come down the pipeline if they get their way. Regarding malaria, so many advances had been achieved, but destabilization has caused a regression in policy, and incidences of malaria have risen. Some corporate interests are trying to rationalize the reintroduction of DDT, despite the serious threats that could come from this.

Seventh is ensuring environmental sustainability, a worthy aim, but if you consider what they are advocating at the UN, the resulting rise in overpopulation, the alliances with serious polluters, how China has been allowed to strip Africa of it’s resources, including it’s fishing stocks, dumping toxic waste, into the air, soil and water, I could go on ad nauseum, it just doesn’t ring true. Their claims about access to drinking water, are sneaky and need to be watched. They are working towards finding a way to steal public drinking water supplies from nations, claiming they do not have the right to control their own water supplies. At the same time, while some people in the Middle East and Africa have little access to clean drinking water, Arab royalty use their own to create lakes, on which they build little islands so they can play on boats, jet skis and what have you. The inconsistency and hypocrisies are amazing. We aren’t going to achieve a safer environment by saying the west has to cut back, and the so called “developing world” in China and India can continue to pump out extremely high levels of pollution. What’s more, China and India have had the resources to develop along the lines that would help their own populations but have refused to do so. No where is there any discussion of the fact that, India for example is now a global super power, yet they expect us to give them 9 billion dollars in aid per year, to help their poor. Little to none of that goes to their poor, it goes to susidize the government there.

Eighth, most telling and last of all, develop a global partnership for development. It’s about unchecked, unfair, unregulated, unprotected control by unelected, unanswerable powers, so called “free trade”, no borders, so rights and freedoms can be swept aside by the importation or exportation of jobs/workers, no restrictions or protections against unsafe food or products, you name it. Everything even life is marketable. Perhaps you think I’m exagerating or deluding myself.. tell me, what hasn’t the UN been willing to ignore most recently, tell me how the deck is stacked in that body that reflects the UN’s original stated mission. They do not care about or respect human rights.

Frankly, the MDG’s have been going on, with funding since the ‘90s, and they have resolved nothing. They are a misdirection of funding, that serve another agenda, one that means to bring western nations, with their historical rights and freedoms to their knees, and under the thumb of those who hold all the wealth and power.

Sorry it took me a while to respond, I’ve been writing this and dealing with work, as well as trying to reach a repairman to make an appointment this afternoon.

Me, Fr. Van. I need to read that “what I like about England” thread again.

Ina-da-ba-da-veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-da, Baby.  This is really groooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooovy.  I mean just feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel the luvvvvvv!!!
Are we sure that Ian isn’t Austin in disguise???

Clearly we have no choice but to break communion with these people.
Thankyou Lord Jesus for GAFCON and the great wisdom you gave those who attended.
THIS is the Holy Spirit at work.

I was struck by the utter silence on SF re: Cardinal Kaspar’s address yesterday. It was very significant. Perhaps it was just an oversight.

I read it, JPC, and also the commentary linked on Titus One Nine. Bishop Howe’s comment about the church becoming Protestants in funny clothes seems to be true of the Lambeth party in the eyes of the Catholic church. It is sad and depressing to me.

mari,

Thank you for elucidating your points further. I generally agree with your analysis of the results, and even some of the causes. However, I think you are at least somewhat confused as to who the culprits are, not only in the developing world but in the developed world as well. But this thread is about neither politics nor economics.

I would agree that your fundamental answer, that the goals themselves are laudable, but the mechanisms towards which the UN (not to mention progressives in the West) lean are the problem rather than the solution, is quite correct.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist