Stand Firm

++Mouneer Anis: N. Americans push sexuality issues and then blame us for talking about it…

I am glad I came to this conference. It has given me a great opportunity to learn, listen to others, debate and share my views openly. It has been a great joy to meet many friends and to make new friends who love the Lord and are committed to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ by word and deed. I have heard many inspiring stories from colleagues who put their lives at risk and suffer in order to stay faithful to God and His Church. I cannot describe the encouragement we received from and the fellowship with our ecumenical partners, especially the Coptic Orthodox. The conference has provided the Global South Bishops as well as other bishops from the UK, NZ, USA, Canada and Australia to meet and support each other. It has been a blessing to us all.

Warmly welcomed every one of us and worked very hard to encourage us to be united. We are deeply grateful to them and their hard working staff. I am committed to pray and support Archbishop Rowan because I know that he so much wants the present crisis in the Communion to be resolved.

While some very positive things are happening at the conference, the unresolved issues are still dividing the Communion. I can only wonder if during the coming two days we will truly be able to do something about these unresolved issues. I have some doubts but I would have loved to go back to my people with good news of progress towards truly resolving our crisis and that we still all continue to uphold the mind of the Church as expressed in the Lambeth 98 Resolution 1.10 which reaffirmed the historic teaching of the Church. From my experience of the Bible studies and the indaba discussions I see a great wall being put up by the revisionists against those orthodox who believe in the authority of scripture. The revisionists among us push upon us the view that current secular culture and not the Bible should shape our mission and morals. In this we are not divided by mere trivialities, or issues periphery of faith but on essentials. I am shocked to say tat we are finding it very hard to come together on even the essentials of the faith we once received from the Apostles.

Everywhere we go here, we meet gay & lesbian activists, receive their newsletters or read about their many events. Many seem to be supported by North American churches. They are intent to push their agenda on us. No other lobbying groups seem to enjoy similar access, or be able to have their literature prominently displayed all over the campus and at the entrance to every residence. They are determined that their way is the only right way and that everyone else should follow. They are not at all open to listening to us or the historic church teaching. Yet, it is surprising that they push all these sexuality issues so intensively into the conference and then blame us for talking about them too much! In the attitude of some North American churches I am reminded of the arrogance of the American administration that made that mess in Iraq because it refused to listen to millions of voices from the wider world.

Through the advocacy of unscriptural practices, I would say they are inviting the church into a new form of slavery: a slavery to modern secular culture and to immoral desires and lusts. Simply because people feel desires to do certain things, or, to live in certain ways, has never before, of itself, meant that the Church should bless them in doing so.

Some say that same sex unions that are faithful relationships are alright. But I feel we cannot be truly faithful to each other unless we are faithful to God and his purpose is made clear in the creation of man and woman for each other. We cannot endorse an inadequate substitute, that is not open to the transmission of life.

The scientific literature (which as a medical doctor I have taken the trouble to review) does not support the conclusion that the experience of same sex desires is in fact fixed or determined by genetics or otherwise “hard wired” into people.

I see that every organ has a very specific function. We can eat from our nose but it is not created for eating unless the person is very sick and we fix a tube into his nose. The genital organs are created to compliment each other and to glorify God and his purpose in creation.

The church must offer a welcome to all an offer every loving support, but this does not mean it must endorse whatever temptations and lifestyles people desire. The church must uphold its moral teaching and call society to account: this is the true nature of the its prophetic witness to the world.

I was shocked to hear a lady bishop saying that we should not preach the Gospel but work only for social justice. Ultimately, there can never be full social justice without the Gospel. Mankind needs the salvation that only Jesus Christ can provide. The world needs redemption not simply secular improvements! Economic development is good but it cannot replace salvation.

Healing requires sometimes the taking of unpleasant medicine or surgical intervention. Healing of our wounded Communion requires hard decisions.

I was greatly encouraged by the truthful and realistic assessment made by the Windsor Continuation Group (WCG) about the situation of the Communion. Their recommendation of retrospective moratoria on the blessing of same sex unions, the ordination of active gay and lesbian people, and upon interventions across boundaries are indeed the only way forward to mend the torn fabric of the Communion. Their proposal of a “Pastoral Forum” if fully implemented, could protect the orthodox within TEC. These recommendations will help to stop further splits and will put an end to interventions. The big question is: will the Episcopal Church in North America (TEC) accept these recommendations? Will TEC recognize the importance of mutual submission?

This is a way ahead that could prevent future crises. It can enhance our interdependence in essentials while also preserving our appropriate administrative autonomy and local identities. Some TEC bishops resist the idea of the covenant as they see it as punitive and limiting their sense of control. They think that it will restrict them from responding to the needs of the culture which they feel should have priority. But sadly, it must be asked, I they are not willing to abide by the mind of the church why do they say the Communion is important to them? If TEC and Canada do not accept the Covenant recommendations they will leave the wider Communion with the one option that was recommended by the Windsor Report and the Dar Es Salaam Primates’ Meeting. This was for them to withdraw from international Anglican Councils and bodies. This will create a safe distance for them to consider their priorities and mission and to clear away the mess created by the current crisis.

It is my prayer, as we gather here in Canterbury in the historic See of St. Augustine, that we will yet unite in mutual submission under God and be thus freed to carry forward the message of salvation in Jesus Christ to the waiting world that is so much in need of it.

Q: As a doctor are individuals healed by good intentions or by positive interventions on the part of physicians?

A: Not good intentions. To heal someone you need sometimes to give then unpleasant feelings. you need to hurt sometimes to heal and these are faithful wounds and many times as a medical doctor I was involved in the process of healing and the patients were not happy

A: I am waiting. I do not know what is going to happen in the coming days. I do think at this conference that there will be a positive intervention but that it will need to be done at ACC 14

A: I did not go because they changed the time and I have another commitment. I was also concerned that it would be a separatist movement because I am committed to the GS and I wanted to see the intent of going further and growing stronger in communion. Still all of the people of GAFCON are close friends and we will work together and grow together because we have the same foundation.

A: it had a lot of positive outcomes that will be useful for this Conference to observe and also for the GS meeting coming up. I think they did some very positive things that need to be built on.

Q Claiming the Blessing: You mentioned that the Episcopal Church is sponsoring gay activists, do you know how many activists?

A; I cannot count them but they are many. I do not have a number. You open this booklet and you will not be able to count all of the advertisements for their events. They are all over the place at the market place and where we meet. They are everywhere, I cannot count them.

A; I believer what medicine says: A psychiatrist named Spitxer in 1980 asked the APA to drop homosexuality from the psychological diseases list. But he came back in 2003 with a second study and came to the conclusion that the orientation can be altered by reparative therapy.

Q: A lot of people who went to GAFCON are not here. Today ++Orombi said he could be heard by being silent. Do you think this was an attempt to sabotage the Conference?

A: I think their actions say something; that we are a wounded community. I had hoped that all of them would be here because their voice would be very valued. The absence of my brothers and sisters is a big loss. But I must say they still speak in their silence.

Q: Do you see any efforts on the part of the ABC to set up a rival GS primates group to set aside or undercut the GACON primates?

A: ABC Rowan is very supportive of the GS, you may recall that in 2005 he attended our meeting. He was aware of our meeting here at Lambeth and was supportive and in fact he is supportive of any regional groupings. So I do not see that he is pushing away the GS or concerned about it in a negative way. He does respect us.

Q: In the latest Reflections document it is said that the push for the acceptance of homosexual behavior was an attempt at re-colonization

A: I agree. They want to push this lifestyle on us and the idea that the culture dictates to the church. But all through the centuries the church has not blessed everything the culture comes up with. But these activists are completely driven by the culture. But we should be drive by the word of God.

Q: As a doctor and a pastor I have had to council the aggrieved party to move out to get the attention of the abused, Can GAFCON be seen in that light?

A: I am not part of GAFCON and would leave them to speak for themselves. But what you say reminds me of something I want to share. Our rejection of same sex blessings is linked by some to homophobia. We are not homophobic, we love and welcome homosexuals. And we would pastor to them in the same way we pastor to anyone else. We all need the grace of God, we are all sinners, and we are not homophobic but we cannot bless sinful behavior ours or anyone elses.

Q: Naughton: You mention the Robert Spitzer’s change of mind, did that change the APA’s position on homosexuality?

A: It did not unfortunately because it happened years after orientation had been accepted. When you bless and permit something it grows. When I was practicing I received a lot of letters from people who wanted to have their impulses altered and I referred them to others and they were helped. But when we fail to call sin a sin we allow it to flourish. The church turned a blind eye to divorce and so it became a fashion, now divorce in the west is much more than we have in the middle east. The church turned a blind eye to co-habitation and it became the norm. And if we do the same to same sex unions it will become a norm as well. But we nee to stand firm and be faithful.

Q: You spoke in a recent article about Africa being the future of the AC, do you see Africa taking leadership from now on after Lambeth?

A: in the first 1000 years, Africa shaped the Christian mind. That is not me it is (someone I missed) and Thomas Oden. If we stay faithful to the teaching of the apostles and if we went back to our heritage and the saints of the past and begin living in our heritage again and bringing it to the world I think we would be able to save the Christian mind as well.

From my experience of the Bible studies and the indaba discussions I see a great wall being put up by the revisionists against those orthodox who believe in the authority of scripture. The revisionists among us push upon us the view that current secular culture and not the Bible should shape our mission and morals.

I am thankful for such plain speakers. It is rather hard to look at the current state of American culture and see that we have arrived at a level of perfection that equals what we are taught by the church. :-(

“I was shocked to hear a lady bishop saying that we should not preach the Gospel but work only for social justice.” Name names. Call ‘em out and make ‘em theological revisionism.

Aside from the rather dubious notion that a nation with government-sanctioned rape rooms and tree chippers that seat four can be described as “orderly,” I think +Anis is spot-on.

Unless the real elephant in the room is addressed and dealt with and consequences are put in place and used for violators there will always be unresolved issues and those issues will get bigger and deeper. There needs to be consequences to actions and inactions when resolutions/agreements/covenants are broken. You can indaba all you want but to me it’s like telling a child that is throwing a temper-tantrum and deliberately breaking the rules that all have agreed to live by, to stop doing it and they know full well that you will do nothing but talk, talk, talk and tell them stop, stop, stop. All the while they are continuing in their disobedience and laughing at your inability to put forth and enforce consequences. Thus, with this you have helped in shaping an arrogant, disrespectful, out of control person who is going to wreck havoc on society. Hence the liberal revisionists in all of the WWAC but most importantly TECUSA! You can have Lambeth Conferences after Lambeth Conferences and DES Covenants, Windsor Groups, Dromitines, and on and on and on…. But without consequences no matter how painfiul it is to enforce them they must be implemented and enforced for the sake of the whole WWAC. I don’t see nor hear anythng like that and haven’t in the past 7-10 years.

illinisouth,
Do you really need the name? I don’t know either but if I was a betting person I would bet her name begins with an R and ends with an M.
I would say that this whole shocking thing is getting a bit tired. Revisionists are not hiding. This stuff is all over the net and their teachings and programs.

God bless you, good Bishop, for speaking the truth clearly and calmly. You will sleep well tonight, and your words will do more to encourage faithful people than the “activists” antics can do to discourage them.

May God continue to strengthen his REAL Bishops to speak boldly in love and to lead their flocks in truth! (Especially now!)

He doesn’t need to name names, pretty much every lady Bishop would have said that, except Bishop Wolfe.

I’m starting to wonder which is worse: (i) rejection of biblical teaching on porneia; or (ii) rejection of biblical teaching on discipline within the body of Christ.

Perhaps if I were in an indaba group, someone would chime in: ‘why not have it be both/and!’

The Lambeth Bishops are willing to throw traditionalists in America under the bus by making border crossing the moral equivalence of same sex acting out simply to put an end to their own inconvenience…primarily so they don’t themselves have to continue in the listening torture chamber created by liberal Americans…but this is cowardly and fails to fulfill the call of God to stand up against the powers and principalities that seek to destroy Christ’s Church…if this is all that Lambeth can do, it should be the last Lambeth Conference.

I’m reluctant to go on a tangent here, but +Anis’ premise that the US made a “mess” in Iraq, with the implication being Iraq was an orderly nation before our invasion. I was simply pointing out what features that “orderly” nation sported, wondered if they were acceptable to +Anis and, if not, where were his brickbats then?

I actually thought +Anis’ analogy to the U.S. in Iraq was a good one - and I must admit to a certain glee at thought of Susan Russell et al being indirectly compared to our president. However you feel about the Iraq war, Jeffersonian, it is undeniable that we went into it against the advice and concerns of pretty much the rest of the world. Which is exactly how TEC has pursued its novel course.

So do you accept the premise that the situation in pre-GC2003 ECUSA was akin to Saddam-tyrannized Iraq?

Deep breaths everyone, unless we really want to argue about Iraq. Setting aside that analogy, this is a very clear picture of how American style political lobbying, which the TEC/GBLT crowd have brought to Lambeth, is received by many participants.

Yes, virginian. I don’t think anyone likes to have bossy folks shoving “new things” down their throats. I hope we will hear from other bishops - perhaps after they have gone home - what it has been like to have a disproportionate number of American bishops and far too many belligerent American gay lobbyists in their faces for nearly three weeks.

And the lies. Which U.S. bishop was it who said the other day that many at Lambeth didn’t realize all that the U.S. had done in response to Windsor? Who in the U.S. noticed them making any response to Windsor other than rude gestures?

This form of slavery is not new. Paul wrote about it in Romans 6. It is precisely this form of slavery, which according to ++Anis certain people associated to the the seem to be encouraging, from which Christ came to set us free. Not the slavery of “social injustice.” Not even chattel slavery. Liberation from such things follow as a result of Christ’s setting us free from the mastery of sin, not as a precondition for it (although surely not even the most hardened worthy opponent would preach that as a precondition). Renewal so that through Christ we are free from the mastery of sin, and obedience to Christ as Lord, should take the lead in the church’s proclamation, not “working for social justice” or the MDGs (worthy as they are).

There can be little question that your (ii) is the worse. Without discipline, any heretical viewpoint becomes permissible. It is this aspect which is very quickly driving me away from Anglicanism and toward either Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. By temperament and understanding, I think conciliar governance is preferable to a classical magisterium in the manner of Rome. However, the inability of Orthodoxy to adapt in any way, because of the inability to convene a true ecumenical council, leaves Orthodoxy fixed and immobile.

< frustration > {Sighing} The challenge of waiting for discernment to come. … < /frustration >

Big question for anyone who is actually at Lambeth:
I have seen several quotes from GS bishops indicating that the WCG report places a moratorium on gay ordinations. All the copies of the report I have read use the word “consecration”. In American English, “consecration” refers only to bishops, and not to priests. This is certainly the way ALL revisionists are reading it in this country. Are there translations being passed out at Lambeth that intentionally confuse the ordination of priests and consecrations of bishops? Or does the word “consecration” mean something else outside the USA?

I have interspersed my live blogging with the official copy of ++Anis’ remarks, inserting extra text where the AB departed from his text

I am so thankful for church leaders like ++Mouneer Anis. Matt, thank you again for capturing all this for those of us who wouldn’t have heard much of it without you.

#25, regarding consecration: a very full treatise on consecration may be found in the Catholic Encyclopaedia.

In brief, some theologians have held that what we today call bishops and priests have the sacrament of Holy Order in varying degrees, so that priestly ordination imparts a partial character of the priesthood, whereas at an episcopal consecration, the priestly order is made complete. Only since the newrite of 1968 has episcopal consecration been officially referred to as “ordination” in the Catholic church. I haven’t been able to discover any clear or systematic explanation for this change, and neither the term “consecration” nor the underlying concept seem to be at issue.

The term “consecration” isn’t generally used in connexion with priestly ordination, save in the specific context of the consecration of the priest’s hands. Whether it is being used in the Anglican context to smuggle in some new theological understanding I couldn’t say!

As I noted before, it is far less likely that those whose “arrogance of the American administration made that mess in Iraq because it refused to listen to millions of voices from the wider world.” were from TEC than from Truro or Falls Church or St. James Newport or Grace St. Stephen’s John Jay Institute. How ironic. I wonder how +Mouneer Anis would have reacted had he been at GC 2006 and seen its “marketplace” and the support from TEC’s mainline for the disenfranchised and marginalized Palestinian people. I am willing to be labeled revisionists, progressive etc.true or not and nobody here is really interested if it is true. But I am not willing to be linked in any circumstance with Bush. The demographics are such that the republicans inhabit Va,., the democrats Chevy Chase and Maryland. +Mouneer Anis has made this reference more than once, arrogant TEC to arrogant Bush.

Emily, I think TEC might as well own its “American arrogance” - it’s been on display for a long time. And reasserters are actually divided on political issues. Something that is apparently not much the case with revisionists who seem to be very “pure” in their political and religious doctrine.

There you go Emily, he’s taught you something. From outside the US, American unilateralism often looks the same whether it is led by Conservative politicos or Progressive politicos. It’s some Americans stuffing their culture, their values, their choices down the throats of others. And they’re telling you they don’t like it. Please listen.

30- CPKS-
Thanks for responding. I was not confused over definitions per se. My point is that because the document contains the word “consecration” and not “ordination”, Archbishop Anis is going to be disappointed to discover that TEC will conclude, at the HoB in September, that B033 means they are in compliance. And will go on ordaining clergy to its heart’s content. Certainly, everyone at the ACO office and throughout TEC know this. But it is quite clear from ++Anis’ statements that he is under the impression that the document contains a moratorium of clerical ordinations for partnered gays. Since he helped author it, I assume he knows what it means, but that is not what it SAYS. I am left to wonder whether he is under the impression that the 2 words mean the same thing to TEC. OR, I am left to wonder if the words translate into the same word in other languages. OR, I am left to wonder if the document has since been modified, and I haven’t seen the modification, and if I am therefore arguing a moot point. (If so, many apologies)

It is funny how the “listening process” doesn’t include listening to the Bible or historic Christian teaching.

I would suggest that Archbishop Anis has reached a very different understanding of what the MCG asks of TEC than what the bloggers and most commenters on this board have understood it to mean, based on the clarifications offered in various press conferences.

MCG does not address the event that sparked the interventions or the underlying issues that prompted many Episcopalians to reach the conclusion that they could no longer stay in TEC.

How long before -Chane rents out the NatCat for the set of a queer porn flick? They need the money. And, the place has already witnessed the coronation of the Presiding Heretic.

I say again—I think ++Anis would make a splendid Archbishop of Canterbury, were such a thing possible.

It’s not only refreshing to hear his candor, but it’s heartning to hear his true commitment to the faith.

He’s 100% correct, the homosexual lobby, working through their plants in TEC are in aid of slavery, physical, mental, cultural slavery.

I’m grateful to the almighty God for giving us such stalwart leaders as ++Mouneer Anis, and others like him. God bless and keep them, because we need them now more than ever.

You speak the truth in comment, #15 Don Armstrong+. There is a very sad complicity going on at Lambeth (we have seen it often enough to recognize it now). Rowan Williams is leading the Anglican Communion away from the Way, the Truth, and the Life—all in the name of “holding it all together”—no unity in Christ possible—so let’s try for just keeping it all going, no matter what we have to say or do; and those who have sacrificed, who continue to sacrifice so much because they belong to Jesus and can do no other than stand firm for His truth, are, as you so perfectly state, “thrown under the bus.” How dare the writers of these prescriptions for “unity” equate the courageous rescuing of faithful people who are in shock, grief, and horror over what their church has become, celebrating sin and calling it “holy” before Almightly God, with those who have perpetrated these falsehoods. It is very painful to watch this again.

But God is good and the light of Christ shines through in all circumstances. Archbishop Anis has spoken the truth in his words here, and I thank God that he can stand up and do this at Lambeth. Thanks be to God also for Archbishops Orombi and Nzimbi who have spoken so clearly and powerfully in the last day. We have good and faithful leaders in all corners of the Anglcan Communion and we know because of the true unity in Christ that was the blessing of GAFCON, that there will be a faithful way forward. The orthodox Global South leaders and their brother bishops in the West are steadfast in their leadership—no matter what the post Christian, post modern clerics at Lambeth say about them and their mission.

I have seen enough of Lambeth, think I will go smell some flowers stick to prayer.

“Handing out Bishop Michael Nazir Ali’s book, “The Unique and Universal Christ” to all the bishops on campus met with resistance from Lambeth staff who told two distributors that they couldn’t do that. Undeterred, they went ahead and did it anyway, and got a copy of the book to all the bishops. Note, the pansexualists are having no problems distributing their literature;, they get a pass. Orthodox folk have to fight to get their minimal demands met.” http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=8785

Jefferts-Schori, Gene Robinson and the rest of her minions, like Bush are as guilty. Like him, they make a pretense of Christian belief, feigning compassion, while they act as anything but Christian. How can you pretend otherwise? Bush wasn’t able to get away with his pushing us into Iraq on his own, either. Tony Blair, so called “progressive” helped push us into the war, by creating lies for Bush to hide behind. It was the actions of the corrupt globalism, that TEC under Jefferts-Schori embraces. Lie to exploit power, for profit. She’s doing the same thing Bush is, especially through her extremist promotion of MDG’s, which are NOT in aid of eradicating third world poverty, but in redirecting those billions to corrupt governments which use those funds to buy weapons and create genocide and war. In exchange Jefferts-Schori’s corporate friends get to use poor Africans and others as little more than lab rats, to experiment on, to see if their latest AIDS vaccines are safe for her wealthy and powerful friends and constituents. She’s demanding that her corrupt “culture” be imposed on others. The destruction of the family, the promotion of promiscuity and sexual predation on the most vulnerable. She and her ilk view those people as little more than victims ripe for the picking.

Jefferts-Schori, is empire building, looting churches and dioceses to fund her greed and avarice. She and her minions are playing at Christianity, it’s plain to me that they despise Christianity and Christ. Her indifference to extreme poverty here, her stealing from native peoples, like those in the Dakotas is the actions of a fraud, and she makes the church look like a scam. It seems to me that she gained entry into the church leadership to defraud the faithful, and reduce it to the negative caricature she views it as. She leaves a wake of destruction and hopelessness behind her.. That is her legacy, she is in fact worse than George Bush, because she claims to know better, while she treats the faithful, especially the truly disenfranchised as slaves to oppress. Her, and indeed your own legacy will be that of monsters to be reviled.

Why, Mari! How resourceful of you to turn a this months old thread into a political Bushbash! Your next post will be an osamabamarama, I presume. How third trimester abortions, homosex unions, impregnations and adoptions, social programs that promote these pansexual agendas can make the world a perfect utopia.
The world you liberals are forging will be hell, not heaven…because it is not authored or blessed by God.

#44 Mari… As my son would say: “Oh, wow!” Sounds like you’re having a bad day. Bush bashing and KJS /EmilyH bashing all in one day.

I sincerely hope thar the mosquito nets we sent from our little church did not contribute to the horrible outcome you suggest.

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