The presiding bishop of the U.S. Episcopal Church warned the Church of England not to foment schism in America, responding to a threat made over the possibility that the U.S. church will start ordaining actively gay bishops.
Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori said Sunday, in response to questions from The Washington Times, that calls by conservatives in the Church of England for recognition of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) over gay-related issues would wound her church, already split by the secession of conservative dioceses and congregations to form the ACNA.
She urged Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams to remember the “pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces, and the broken relationships, the damaged relationships between people who have gone and people who have stayed.”
I think I need to put a liquid refreshment warning here. Please remove from proximity of keyboard.
Okay, ready? Oh and pick up some tissues while you are standing. You are going to need them. And, remember, laughter really is the best medicine.
“Recognition of something like ACNA is unfortunately likely only to encourage” further secessions, she said, reminding the Church of England that “schism is not a Christian act.”
Just a brief reminder - this is the woman who said:
“The overarching connection in all of these crises has to do with the great Western heresy - that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God. It’s caricatured in some quarters by insisting that salvation depends on reciting a specific verbal formula about Jesus. That individualist focus is a form of idolatry, for it puts me and my words in the place that only God can occupy, at the center of existence, as the ground of all being. That heresy is one reason for the theme of this Convention.”
Now that we have cleared up anyone’s misconception that this woman has the ABILITY to recognize a Christian act, let’s move on.
Bishop Jefferts Schori’s remarks come amid a fight at the triennial meeting of the General Convention, the Episcopal Church’s top legislative body, which began moves over the weekend to overturn the church’s 2006 ban on gay bishops.
On Saturday night, the church’s World Missions Committee consolidated 13 resolutions into a single bill that opens the door for gays “like any other baptized members, to any ordained ministry in the Episcopal Church.”
I don’t know about you guys but I think my sinuses just cleared up.
What we are looking at is “pluriform schism.” It’s not schism when TEC does it, as in rending the fabric of the Communion. However, when someone else recognizes the aftermath of TEC’s actions, they are deemed schismatic and unchristian.
Hans Christian Anderson:
A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.
“The Emperor is naked,” he said.
“Fool!” his father reprimanded, running after him. “Don’t talk nonsense!” He grabbed his child and took him away. But the boy’s remark, which had been heard by the bystanders, was repeated over and over again until everyone cried:
“The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It’s true!”
The Emperor realized that the people were right but could not admit to that. He though it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who couldn’t see his clothes was either stupid or incompetent. And he stood stiffly on his carriage, while behind him a page held his imaginary mantle.
It’s called projection.
Projection is not a sign of mental health.
Please remember that all TEC has done,is doing,and will do in the future is the result of those special prophetic insights that many in TEC claim to have had. Armed with this new special knowledge, and being, of course, THE most powerful Female Cleric in the entire world, she and only she has the clarity address the consequences of any actions that are even slightly contrary to that special vision. No one not equally sharing in her vision has any standing what so ever to question what TEC is doing. If you do YOU are the heretic! TEC is redefing Christianity! Beleif ( in the Bonehoeffer sense)is now entirely optional, as one may merely recognize the physical existence of a person known as Jesus of Nazareth and that is sufficient. After all she long ago declared the crucification and certainly any resurrection to be myths. Christians no longer need be witnesses to the resurrection!
The whole of Christendom MUST submit to her will, or be subject to her wrath!
Maranatha!
Schism is far, far more likely to occur, rather than the sexual issue, because of her words in her opening sermon when she stated that the heresy of individual salvation through Jesus Christ by following a set of dogmatic steps.
Sexual issues themselves are enough of a schismatic causative issue.
The statement of the heretical nature of individual salvation is a HUGE AND COMPLETE step away from Christianity.
I think I need a tot o’rum! Mmmm….there, that tastes good! Now, as for Mrs Schori….......
Guess she’s jettisoned the All is Well campaign in favor of We’re a Mess Here and You are Just Making it Worse campaign.
If she’s not careful, she’ll endanger some of her legal arguments against the “abandoners.”
The statement of the heretical nature of individual salvation is a HUGE AND COMPLETE step away from Christianity.
Has anything at all been said about this at GC? I’m guessing not.
I am not surprised by anything the PB says or does. She has her own unique understanding of what it means to be an Anglican and/or Christian. It is a total departure from the Biblical Truth and the catholic Church. At best her theology is sophomoric but clearly it is contrary to any reasonable exegesis and proper interpretation of Scripture. As others have said, she is projecting her own sins onto those who have said enough is enough. She has no power over the Church of England or the Archbishop of Canterbury. The only thing the AC is going to receive is money and even the EC is hurting and with all the lawsuits eventually the bank will run dry.
This is nothing but clear projection blaming others for what she is actually doing. It is her leadership that has fomented schism and she is reaping the world wide. The dishonesty and lies may be catching up with the EC….we will have to wait and see.
Wow! The PB actually acknowledged that there is, in fact a problem in TEC. That perhaps more than “just a disgruntled few” are impacted and reacting. Look for a huge lobbying effort at CoE Synod to completely defenstrate this effort of recognition. I’ll bet TEC will put everything on the table to prevent it. Money, reputation, bishoprics - eveything. There is no turning back once you jump off a cliff.
Is Monty Python or Saturday Night Live making this stuff up? If would comical if it weren’t trus…
With respect to the western heresy of individual salvation, I guess it now takes a village to be saved…and of course, under the watchful eye of comrade KJS and her thugs. Too bad for that thief on the cross next to Jesus. REGARDLESS of what Jesus said, there were, obviously, too few fellow thieves in attendance, and of course with no TEC oversight to approve the communal salvation, the thief on the cross had no hope of salvation. According to the “official position of the Episcopal Church”, Jesus’ words of salvation to that thief were nothing more than an empty promise. According to TEC, Jesus LIED. On the cross. What a croc…
NOW, KJS is trying to strong arm the ABC into not recognizing ACNA, because it “might” cause further schism within TEC, and creating schism is not a “christian act”. OMG! If creating schism is a measure of non-christian behavior, then KJS and her thugs are the Genghis Khan’s of the modern religous age, the Spanish Inquisition of the 21st century, the stormtroopers of TEC. Defenders of the right to be all-inclusive, ready to break the heads of anyone who disagrees. They are the least christian among us, guilty of causing at least as much schism as Henry the Eighth did when he brought the Anglican Church into being in the 1st place. KJS and Company - what are you going to do when you die and go before St. Peter? Since individual salvation is a heresy, you better hope you all die and go before the Judge together!
This is another of those irregular verbs, isn’t it?
- I am being prophetic,
- You are reasserting,
- He is being schismatic.
As I read this I reflected on growing up Baptist. As a young woman, I departed from what I knew - but I never forgot what I knew. And in the midst of denying any deity I still knew that “the only way to the father is through the son”. How could VGR, who, if anything, grew up in an even more fundamentalist faith than I, deny all of this - even while in sin?? I am flummoxed and dumbfounded. I have but one prayer: thank you, Jesus, in the context of my individual relationship with You that You chose to lead me out of TEC. I ask your blessing on those sisters and brothers who have not been similarly called, that You (in Your personal relationship with each of them) may provide the grace and strength to carry on”.
This woman is insane.
Robinson denies, because his agenda is in aid of revenge against Christianity for telling him to repent of his sin, and to commit to sinning no more. He doesn’t want to stop sinning, he revels in sin, and desire to induce the innocent to join him, by corrupting them. Again, despite what he said a few days back, it wasn’t that he cares about church “family”, rather, he cares about being able to do just as he wishes, and hates the faith that serves as a constant reminder that he has embraced and celebrates sin. He wants to destroy the church, to remake it in his image.
Mirror Mirror on the wall. Of course, the implied threat is we won’t give you any money.
[2] jedinovice,
I regret that I must take issue with your assertion that
(p)rojection is not a sign of mental health.
Quite to the contrary, the psychological states of projection and denial are both signs of mental health—signs of impaired or disordered mental health to be sure, but signs of mental health none the less.
Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer
“…that calls by conservatives in the Church of England for recognition of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) over gay-related issues would wound her church,…”
1) It’s not over “gay-related issues”. It’s over heretical teaching and the abandonment of scripture.
2) Wound – “an injury or hurt to feelings, sensibilities, reputation, etc.” Gosh, could TEC be wounded by the ragtag remnant ACNA?
How odd that a “tiny minority” could get her upset so.
If schism is such a bad thing, an unChristian thing, then Mrs. Schori and all other Anglicans had better don their swimming trunks and return to the Roman Catholic Church post haste.
>Quite to the contrary, the psychological states of projection and denial are both signs of mental health—signs of impaired or disordered mental health to be sure, but signs of mental health none the less.
Hmmm, I think this is a quibble in semantics. I didn’t say Schori was mad. I simply said that Projection is not a sign of mental HEALTH. In other words, that projection - as you say - is a sign of mental disorder. It is not, in and of itself, a sign of mental illness persay. But is NOT a sign of someone who is grip with reality - as least at the point of projection.
In other words, projection is not, in itself, a sign of mental illness. However, it sure as hell is not a sign of mental clarity.
I’m making a negative point - against mental stability, but not a positive one in reference to mental illness.
However, this is one of MANY signs in Schori, not least denial of the situation in TEc, paranoia, ruthlessness, lack of human empathy, inclination towards totalitarianism with a dash of possible ego mania maybe… which make me think Schori, perhaps, has some… unresolved issues.
Tell me, what were her relations with her parents like when she was young….? Hmmm… :-D
“pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces,...
As in Bishop Lock Smith of Connecticut?
#20: I’ll say it. Schori is mad. Loony tunes, coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs, deranged, off kilter, three fries short of a happy meal, little corporal syndrome sufferer, “(insert Woody Woodpecker Sounds here”), delusional, confused, insane, lights on but only Satan’s home, belfry full of bats, in need of an I-Love-Me suit, having a serious time-out from reality, needing a serious regimen of psycho-drugs, screw loose, screwball, (more than one) lifetime’s work for Sigmund Freud, cannot answer “no” to the “are you mentally ill” question on a marriage certificate application, in need of reality “stickum”, in need of an elevator repairman, lost, sad, and most importantly, no longer capable of salvation, because in her reality, she’s the only one that matters. Since individual salvation is a western heresy, she is gonna be in deep trouble when she deposes every one else, and she has no one left in the village to be saved with…
My comment:
YGBSM
A reminder of what J. I. Packer said on StandFirm in 2007 concerning schism:
“Sunday, November 25, 2007 • 8:03 am
Now, it is in relation to these organizational structures, large or small, that the notion of schism should be defined. Schism means unwarrantable and unjustifiable dividing of organized church bodies, by the separating of one group within the structure from the rest of the membership. Schism, as such, is sin, for it is a needless and indefensible breach of visible unity. But withdrawal from a unitary set-up that has become unorthodox and distorts the gospel in a major way and will not put its house in order as for instance when the English church withdrew from the Church of Rome in the sixteenth century, should be called not schism but realignment, doubly so when the withdrawal leads to links with a set-up that is faithful to the truth, as in the sixteenth century the Church of England entered into fellowship with the Lutheran and Reformed churches of Europe, and as now we propose gratefully to accept the offer of full fellowship with the Province of the Southern Cone. Any who call such a move schism should be told that they do not know what schism is.”
Comment removed because it represented a personal insult
The PB has no sense of irony.
#25 You’ve gone too far - please take that back.
#25 (Piedmont) I find your comment offensive.
Please remove comment #25. It’s wildly inappropriate.
Hi Piedmont, I am going to delete your comment. It was personally insulting to the PB.
Proper Matt; however, I took Piedmont to mean she must have fallen out of the top bunk or been whopped upside the head with a 2 X 4 a few too many times. Just poorly stated.
This might just push the CoE to recognize ACNA. The Brits already think Americans are arrogant. On the one hand you have a bunch of happy faithful Christians wanting to spread the Gospel, do mission work with the Gospel, believe that Jesus is THE Way etc, not making a bunch of demands. Then on the other hand, you have PB warning you not to create more schism and a church that will do whatever it pleases inspite of the Lambeth etc.
So, which group would you prefer to work with? TEC’s money can only last so long before they are no longer needed/wanted at the table.
Seriously, that broad needs an intervention.
Nothing like competition in the marketplace to clarify things. Brand loyalty is faltering in the face of product recall.
She urged Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams to remember the “pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces.”
Um, like the member of the Church of the Good Shepherd in Binghamton, NY?
The bottom line here has not changed, nor will it change, no matter what is said by whom: MONEY TALKS ....
Tut tut Ecclesiastes… those aren’t Episcopalians… they’re schismatics. Since that’s not a Christian act, they may not even be Christians.
So who cares about them?
Do you think she will sue to take away Lambeth or Canterbury?
A classic noveau primate. The lack of experience is rather showing, wot? But, on the other hand, a darling proof that the ugly american need not be sexist and regarded as a male-only perogative. That and an atrocious taste in wardrobe are sure signs of arrogant american existence.
“pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces, and the broken relationships, the damaged relationships between people who have gone and people who have stayed.” Fortunately for her she won’t have to worry about us feeling too much “pain,” there won’t be enough of us left in TEC to feel pain…
Do you think she will sue to take away Lambeth or Canterbury?
Not until after she deposes the ABoC at the next JSC meeting. Well, assuming she waits that long. Perhaps she will accept Ruth Gledhill’s quotes of his comments as a renunciation of orders.
#6 Cindy -
I agree. One can only hope that her ‘plans’ (and those of her lawyers) will be undone by her own comments.
OK, something is DEFINITELY going on if even Chane is disavowing it:
Washington Bishop John B. Chane, though a longtime supporter of pro-gay causes in the church, told The Times on Sunday that rescinding the ban “will not be helpful,” adding that he did not think the “effort to overturn it will be successful.”
Wonder how long it will take before VGR and Co. begin their collective whining?
That’s what struck me too, #43. If John Chane thinks repeal won’t clear the Bishops and he turns out to be right, then stand by for the explosion.
“Wonder how long it will take before VGR and Co. begin their collective whining? “
When did the stop? I must have missed it.
That’s what struck me too, #43. If John Chane thinks repeal won’t clear the Bishops and he turns out to be right, then stand by for the explosion.
No matter what, it’s going to be interesting to watch.
Hmmm, I wonder if the PB is starting to see the distant possibility that five years from now (next year?) that TEC is out of the Anglican Communion and ACNA is the Anglican province/franchisee in the US?
We are watching a reality show dramatization of Romans, Chapter One. These verses jump out: 1:21 “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.” and. . . 1:25 “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the creator who is forever praised.” . . and 1:28 “Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what out not to be done.”
Dear Father, forgive them and open their hearts and minds to the glory of Your Son, Jesus Christ, who died “that they might turn from their wickedness and live.”
All praise and thanks be to God for the ACNA.
BettyLee (#48), I hadn’t considered that, and I think you’re spot on - with both your analysis, and your prayer that they might be turned. Bless you for that.
Also, a comment on something I haven’t seen discussed (maybe I missed it; I’ve been skimming a lot): anyone discussed the “theology” of the PB’s so-called “sermon” with the failed theology of Kevin Thew Forrester? Just seems there are some unpleasant parallels between the two. If this has appeared, someone please just direct me to the appropriate thread. Thanks…
Let me get this straight, if I can - the Presiding Bishopess of an allegedly Christian church, who tries to portray herself as a Christian, goes against clear Scriptural admonitions against suing fellow Christians, then warns an English church, one founded by schism due to that Anti-Christ in Rome refusing to give Henry VIII a life-time “Get Out of Marriage Free” card, that any effort by that English church to recognize fellow Christians is a cause of schism, and “schism is not a Christian act.” Wow! Far out! They sure must be makin’ the drugs stronger today than the ones I remember from the Sixties! Peace, man!
#31, et al.
I understand that, at times, comments have to be deleted.
But couldn’t someone have at least “blockquoted” the offensive statement so that those of us late to the party could enjo….errr——I mean,—-shake our heads sorrowfully….
So would we have the Bishops of America walk ,or anyone else for that matter, to walk in closets of darkness or to be brave and walk openly in the light of Jesus as faithful and upright examples for many other younger gay and lesbian persons who so desparately need such an example to follow?
Calhoun,
We want every individual to walk in truth and light. We do not believe truth and light can be found outside of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There are no sound theological arguments to support the practice of homosexuality. To affirm that which we believe to be sin, is the most sinful thing we can do.
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Hi gang, I think they are setting the charges under the last little stone bridge.
I sent an email to Jeffort Shori about a year ago firing her as my spritual advisor and telling her I had removed the Episcopal Church from my trust. I actually got a response from 815 noting their concern about my email. I wonder if the firing or the removal from the trust was the more important issue at 815.
I would encourage Episcopalians to personally fire Jeffort Shori. She is not a qualified Christian spritual advisor. That is what Bishops are called to be. An avalanche of firings would be in order. It would have an effect in the Episcopal Church.
If I remember correctly, when she got elected she got some conservative votes. There was a story on it and the writer said she would wreck the church and some conservatives voted for her just to get it over with. Looks like they were correct.
Factually, how many reappraisers have been “shut out of their traditional worship spaces?” I remember hearing hearing how those in Falls Church who voted NOT to leave TEC were given a chapel to worship in, rather than the main sanctuary… am I remembering correctly? This example sounds a heck of a lot more charitable than the example referenced above of Bp. Smith in CT.
Other examples from either side?
Here, here martin5 #32
Before too long, we can expect the PB to say “and you know, that cross thingy has to go - it doesn’t go with the decour of rainbows and oven mitts”!
hoggy,
You remember correctly. KJS is doing exactly as all those who voted for her (tolerating the bad taste in their mouth when doing so) thought she would do and those who voted for her knew she would do for them. Voting her in as PB was the bullseye for the wreck of TEC tht it has been headed in for 30+ years and it took a woman PB to do it.
Cindy T. in Tx,
Not too mention those reappraisers here in San Joaquin that got to keep their churches and property nd then began to try and take the ones who left. Who is getting kicked out locked out besides those in Bishop Lock Smiths diocese?
Fascinating this
http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2009/07/statement-on-the-repudiation-of-b033/
sad state our club, no I meant to say church, is in… ..I think that the line in the sand has finally been permanently drawn for many Episcopalians, ABC should possibility consider that the $ previously coming from TEC is now in ANAC
Schori’s thinly disguised threat to ++Rowan doubtless involves monetary retaliation if he foments “schism.” For instance should he dare to finally do the right thing.
That her cash is running short is nonsense. They have some $200 million in ready trust fund and cash accounts, and millions more in real property. She won’t run out any time soon. CoE and the ACC absolutely need that money, as do some lap dog 3rd world bishops favored by ABC.
I look forward to our remaining Windsor Bishop’s response to these final outrages. They cannot possibly ignore this series of parliamentary pronouncements.
teddy mak, are you sure they have even that amount in ready trust fund and cash accounts? They certainly don’t want to discuss how much they are spending of those monies on litigation, and if memory serves, there was some mention somewhere, last fall or winter about losses due to the collapse. As to property, it’s values have fallen, and mortgages for new buyers aren’t so easy to come by these days. Given how TEC has gutted it’s MDG funding, and many other cut backs, while continuing with it’s profligate spending on what it prefers to redefine mission to be defined as, I’d say that they aren’t in any position to waggle sums of cash to the ABoC or anyone else. I’ll go further and state that if she’s holding out a threat of not giving cash in future, and the ABoC or anyone else believes that TEC is in any position to bribe anyone, they are being stupid. She’s making an empty promise to them, as all her promises have been empty.
I’m sure the PB thought that the gravy train that the church had been in the past, would continue for much longer, in spite of her abuses of power and persecution. I’m sure she had planned to force out churches and even dioceses, knowing she could steal church and diocesan property, which she could use to lard up her accounts with, but it’s not played out quite as she would have liked it. The future for TEC churches and dioceses will involve those who are conservative that have remained, will ultimately be pushed out, so that property can be seized. She will also weed out any churches in poorer areas that require real, Christian mission work, she will also ultimately shut down foreign missions that don’t provide a revenue stream, after all, they were only window dressing to continue the myth of real diversity. Jefferts Schori has made plain that mission only deals with homosexuality. She’ll eventually toss as many left wing TEC bishops, etc.. under the bus as she is able, when she no longer feels they are useful to her.
knowing she could steal church and diocesan property, which she could use to lard up her accounts with…
Very nice wordsmithing Mari.
Intercessor
With post #60…
Or with the tea cozy she wears on her head.
Remember, that $200 million in property was the figure used before property values went into the sewer. TEC hasn’t come away smelling very good, and they’re spending millions on lawyers. This means they’re feeling the pinch, and they’re hoping to sell the properties that they steal from faithful Christian Anglicans. They sure won’t fill them with warm Episcopalian bodies on Sunday morning as long as they keep on losing them at the present rate.
She urged Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams to remember the “pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces, and the broken relationships, the damaged relationships between people who have gone and people who have stayed.
I hope that I am not off topic but here is another sorted mess, and the church needs to make it right. How can anyone who believes in Jesus Christ take serious what Mrs Schori says. Mrs.Schori professed many times that she does not believe in Jesus Christ as “the way, truth, and the life”. She is not a Christian but a person that makes up her own religion as she fools those Episcopalians who feel shut out of traditional worship. TECH can twist words, sentences,and paragrahs in the Bible, Prayer book and Liturgy to confuse any person who wants to believe in God. TECHis trying to confuse the Church of England too but I still can’t believe why they can not see the scam. TECH wants Money, Power, and Property. They do not care for what our beliefs, traditions or reasons are but our assets will benefit them. I really don’t care if I am x-communicated by the episcopal church for what I am saying, but this is what I feel.
I belong to ACNA so may-be not being episcopalian anymore will give me leverage. God help us when the truth is found out. I have family and friends in the episcopal church and they will end up being the victims.
I was reading Narnia, “The Lion, Witch and Wardrobe and the church reminds me of Edmund who accepts Turkish delight from the White Witch so that she can locate her sister, brother and Aslan’s crowd. I just hope that the remain episcopalians do not end up frozen when they accept that “Turkish Delight” for secrets. Please read Resolution ACC 14.11 which will become the new Episcopalian Covenent to understand what I am saying.
She urged Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams to remember the “pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces, and the broken relationships, the damaged relationships between people who have gone and people who have stayed.”
Sorry! I made a woops error when I talked about Edmund because he takes the “Turkish Delight” out of greed but the white witch wants information about where his family and friends are hiding. Although, the reference to the story reminds me of Mrs. Schori. I just wanted to get the context to the story right. Cheers!
“Don’t foment schism?” Oh, that’s rich! What does Mrs Schori think she’s done?
Gee whiz, is anyone really suprised at her statement? Seriously?
Isn’t this the same person who would rather sell property FOR LESS MONEY to a non-Anglican group, because hell will freeze over before she will negotiate or sell TEC property to the North American Anglicans?
Yawn. Nothing to see here.
Unless I am missing something, this was over a year ago, and as predicted this spat turned into nothing of substance.
Yep, it was a year ago, but the argument still goes on. I think it’s good to dredge it up….just so no one forgets.
I paid a lunch visit to a friend who works for my former TEC parish in the Diocese of El Camino Real today, and I found that they are in deep, deep financial trouble to the tune of $70,000+, and in order to get themselves out of it, they have to resort to fundraising campaigns, AKA annual pledge drives. Of course, we all do that, but in their case, it’s all that stands between them and bankruptcy….and it’s been going on for years! The diocese is in financial trouble, but that’s something you’ll never hear about through official sources, and that too has been going on for years. Despite what Schori says, things are not the least bit rosy in TEC.
The presiding bishop of the U.S. Episcopal Church warned the Church of England not to foment schism in America, responding to a threat made over the possibility that the U.S. church will start ordaining actively gay bishops.
Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori said Sunday, in response to questions from The Washington Times, that calls by conservatives in the Church of England for recognition of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) over gay-related issues would wound her church, already split by the secession of conservative dioceses and congregations to form the ACNA.
She urged Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams to remember the “pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces, and the broken relationships, the damaged relationships between people who have gone and people who have stayed.”
I think I need to put a liquid refreshment warning here. Please remove from proximity of keyboard.
Okay, ready? Oh and pick up some tissues while you are standing. You are going to need them. And, remember, laughter really is the best medicine.
“Recognition of something like ACNA is unfortunately likely only to encourage” further secessions, she said, reminding the Church of England that “schism is not a Christian act.”
Just a brief reminder - this is the woman who said:
“The overarching connection in all of these crises has to do with the great Western heresy - that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God. It’s caricatured in some quarters by insisting that salvation depends on reciting a specific verbal formula about Jesus. That individualist focus is a form of idolatry, for it puts me and my words in the place that only God can occupy, at the center of existence, as the ground of all being. That heresy is one reason for the theme of this Convention.”
Now that we have cleared up anyone’s misconception that this woman has the ABILITY to recognize a Christian act, let’s move on.
Bishop Jefferts Schori’s remarks come amid a fight at the triennial meeting of the General Convention, the Episcopal Church’s top legislative body, which began moves over the weekend to overturn the church’s 2006 ban on gay bishops.
On Saturday night, the church’s World Missions Committee consolidated 13 resolutions into a single bill that opens the door for gays “like any other baptized members, to any ordained ministry in the Episcopal Church.”
I don’t know about you guys but I think my sinuses just cleared up.
What we are looking at is “pluriform schism.” It’s not schism when TEC does it, as in rending the fabric of the Communion. However, when someone else recognizes the aftermath of TEC’s actions, they are deemed schismatic and unchristian.
Hans Christian Anderson:
A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.
“The Emperor is naked,” he said.
“Fool!” his father reprimanded, running after him. “Don’t talk nonsense!” He grabbed his child and took him away. But the boy’s remark, which had been heard by the bystanders, was repeated over and over again until everyone cried:
“The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It’s true!”
The Emperor realized that the people were right but could not admit to that. He though it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who couldn’t see his clothes was either stupid or incompetent. And he stood stiffly on his carriage, while behind him a page held his imaginary mantle.
It’s called projection.
Projection is not a sign of mental health.
Please remember that all TEC has done,is doing,and will do in the future is the result of those special prophetic insights that many in TEC claim to have had. Armed with this new special knowledge, and being, of course, THE most powerful Female Cleric in the entire world, she and only she has the clarity address the consequences of any actions that are even slightly contrary to that special vision. No one not equally sharing in her vision has any standing what so ever to question what TEC is doing. If you do YOU are the heretic! TEC is redefing Christianity! Beleif ( in the Bonehoeffer sense)is now entirely optional, as one may merely recognize the physical existence of a person known as Jesus of Nazareth and that is sufficient. After all she long ago declared the crucification and certainly any resurrection to be myths. Christians no longer need be witnesses to the resurrection!
The whole of Christendom MUST submit to her will, or be subject to her wrath!
Maranatha!
Schism is far, far more likely to occur, rather than the sexual issue, because of her words in her opening sermon when she stated that the heresy of individual salvation through Jesus Christ by following a set of dogmatic steps.
Sexual issues themselves are enough of a schismatic causative issue.
The statement of the heretical nature of individual salvation is a HUGE AND COMPLETE step away from Christianity.
I think I need a tot o’rum! Mmmm….there, that tastes good! Now, as for Mrs Schori….......
Guess she’s jettisoned the All is Well campaign in favor of We’re a Mess Here and You are Just Making it Worse campaign.
If she’s not careful, she’ll endanger some of her legal arguments against the “abandoners.”
The statement of the heretical nature of individual salvation is a HUGE AND COMPLETE step away from Christianity.
Has anything at all been said about this at GC? I’m guessing not.
I am not surprised by anything the PB says or does. She has her own unique understanding of what it means to be an Anglican and/or Christian. It is a total departure from the Biblical Truth and the catholic Church. At best her theology is sophomoric but clearly it is contrary to any reasonable exegesis and proper interpretation of Scripture. As others have said, she is projecting her own sins onto those who have said enough is enough. She has no power over the Church of England or the Archbishop of Canterbury. The only thing the AC is going to receive is money and even the EC is hurting and with all the lawsuits eventually the bank will run dry.
This is nothing but clear projection blaming others for what she is actually doing. It is her leadership that has fomented schism and she is reaping the world wide. The dishonesty and lies may be catching up with the EC….we will have to wait and see.
Wow! The PB actually acknowledged that there is, in fact a problem in TEC. That perhaps more than “just a disgruntled few” are impacted and reacting. Look for a huge lobbying effort at CoE Synod to completely defenstrate this effort of recognition. I’ll bet TEC will put everything on the table to prevent it. Money, reputation, bishoprics - eveything. There is no turning back once you jump off a cliff.
Is Monty Python or Saturday Night Live making this stuff up? If would comical if it weren’t trus…
With respect to the western heresy of individual salvation, I guess it now takes a village to be saved…and of course, under the watchful eye of comrade KJS and her thugs. Too bad for that thief on the cross next to Jesus. REGARDLESS of what Jesus said, there were, obviously, too few fellow thieves in attendance, and of course with no TEC oversight to approve the communal salvation, the thief on the cross had no hope of salvation. According to the “official position of the Episcopal Church”, Jesus’ words of salvation to that thief were nothing more than an empty promise. According to TEC, Jesus LIED. On the cross. What a croc…
NOW, KJS is trying to strong arm the ABC into not recognizing ACNA, because it “might” cause further schism within TEC, and creating schism is not a “christian act”. OMG! If creating schism is a measure of non-christian behavior, then KJS and her thugs are the Genghis Khan’s of the modern religous age, the Spanish Inquisition of the 21st century, the stormtroopers of TEC. Defenders of the right to be all-inclusive, ready to break the heads of anyone who disagrees. They are the least christian among us, guilty of causing at least as much schism as Henry the Eighth did when he brought the Anglican Church into being in the 1st place. KJS and Company - what are you going to do when you die and go before St. Peter? Since individual salvation is a heresy, you better hope you all die and go before the Judge together!
This is another of those irregular verbs, isn’t it?
- I am being prophetic,
- You are reasserting,
- He is being schismatic.
As I read this I reflected on growing up Baptist. As a young woman, I departed from what I knew - but I never forgot what I knew. And in the midst of denying any deity I still knew that “the only way to the father is through the son”. How could VGR, who, if anything, grew up in an even more fundamentalist faith than I, deny all of this - even while in sin?? I am flummoxed and dumbfounded. I have but one prayer: thank you, Jesus, in the context of my individual relationship with You that You chose to lead me out of TEC. I ask your blessing on those sisters and brothers who have not been similarly called, that You (in Your personal relationship with each of them) may provide the grace and strength to carry on”.
This woman is insane.
Robinson denies, because his agenda is in aid of revenge against Christianity for telling him to repent of his sin, and to commit to sinning no more. He doesn’t want to stop sinning, he revels in sin, and desire to induce the innocent to join him, by corrupting them. Again, despite what he said a few days back, it wasn’t that he cares about church “family”, rather, he cares about being able to do just as he wishes, and hates the faith that serves as a constant reminder that he has embraced and celebrates sin. He wants to destroy the church, to remake it in his image.
Mirror Mirror on the wall. Of course, the implied threat is we won’t give you any money.
[2] jedinovice,
I regret that I must take issue with your assertion that
(p)rojection is not a sign of mental health.
Quite to the contrary, the psychological states of projection and denial are both signs of mental health—signs of impaired or disordered mental health to be sure, but signs of mental health none the less.
Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer
“…that calls by conservatives in the Church of England for recognition of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) over gay-related issues would wound her church,…”
1) It’s not over “gay-related issues”. It’s over heretical teaching and the abandonment of scripture.
2) Wound – “an injury or hurt to feelings, sensibilities, reputation, etc.” Gosh, could TEC be wounded by the ragtag remnant ACNA?
How odd that a “tiny minority” could get her upset so.
If schism is such a bad thing, an unChristian thing, then Mrs. Schori and all other Anglicans had better don their swimming trunks and return to the Roman Catholic Church post haste.
>Quite to the contrary, the psychological states of projection and denial are both signs of mental health—signs of impaired or disordered mental health to be sure, but signs of mental health none the less.
Hmmm, I think this is a quibble in semantics. I didn’t say Schori was mad. I simply said that Projection is not a sign of mental HEALTH. In other words, that projection - as you say - is a sign of mental disorder. It is not, in and of itself, a sign of mental illness persay. But is NOT a sign of someone who is grip with reality - as least at the point of projection.
In other words, projection is not, in itself, a sign of mental illness. However, it sure as hell is not a sign of mental clarity.
I’m making a negative point - against mental stability, but not a positive one in reference to mental illness.
However, this is one of MANY signs in Schori, not least denial of the situation in TEc, paranoia, ruthlessness, lack of human empathy, inclination towards totalitarianism with a dash of possible ego mania maybe… which make me think Schori, perhaps, has some… unresolved issues.
Tell me, what were her relations with her parents like when she was young….? Hmmm… :-D
“pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces,...
As in Bishop Lock Smith of Connecticut?
#20: I’ll say it. Schori is mad. Loony tunes, coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs, deranged, off kilter, three fries short of a happy meal, little corporal syndrome sufferer, “(insert Woody Woodpecker Sounds here”), delusional, confused, insane, lights on but only Satan’s home, belfry full of bats, in need of an I-Love-Me suit, having a serious time-out from reality, needing a serious regimen of psycho-drugs, screw loose, screwball, (more than one) lifetime’s work for Sigmund Freud, cannot answer “no” to the “are you mentally ill” question on a marriage certificate application, in need of reality “stickum”, in need of an elevator repairman, lost, sad, and most importantly, no longer capable of salvation, because in her reality, she’s the only one that matters. Since individual salvation is a western heresy, she is gonna be in deep trouble when she deposes every one else, and she has no one left in the village to be saved with…
My comment:
YGBSM
A reminder of what J. I. Packer said on StandFirm in 2007 concerning schism:
“Sunday, November 25, 2007 • 8:03 am
Now, it is in relation to these organizational structures, large or small, that the notion of schism should be defined. Schism means unwarrantable and unjustifiable dividing of organized church bodies, by the separating of one group within the structure from the rest of the membership. Schism, as such, is sin, for it is a needless and indefensible breach of visible unity. But withdrawal from a unitary set-up that has become unorthodox and distorts the gospel in a major way and will not put its house in order as for instance when the English church withdrew from the Church of Rome in the sixteenth century, should be called not schism but realignment, doubly so when the withdrawal leads to links with a set-up that is faithful to the truth, as in the sixteenth century the Church of England entered into fellowship with the Lutheran and Reformed churches of Europe, and as now we propose gratefully to accept the offer of full fellowship with the Province of the Southern Cone. Any who call such a move schism should be told that they do not know what schism is.”
Comment removed because it represented a personal insult
The PB has no sense of irony.
#25 You’ve gone too far - please take that back.
#25 (Piedmont) I find your comment offensive.
Please remove comment #25. It’s wildly inappropriate.
Hi Piedmont, I am going to delete your comment. It was personally insulting to the PB.
Proper Matt; however, I took Piedmont to mean she must have fallen out of the top bunk or been whopped upside the head with a 2 X 4 a few too many times. Just poorly stated.
This might just push the CoE to recognize ACNA. The Brits already think Americans are arrogant. On the one hand you have a bunch of happy faithful Christians wanting to spread the Gospel, do mission work with the Gospel, believe that Jesus is THE Way etc, not making a bunch of demands. Then on the other hand, you have PB warning you not to create more schism and a church that will do whatever it pleases inspite of the Lambeth etc.
So, which group would you prefer to work with? TEC’s money can only last so long before they are no longer needed/wanted at the table.
Seriously, that broad needs an intervention.
Nothing like competition in the marketplace to clarify things. Brand loyalty is faltering in the face of product recall.
She urged Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams to remember the “pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces.”
Um, like the member of the Church of the Good Shepherd in Binghamton, NY?
The bottom line here has not changed, nor will it change, no matter what is said by whom: MONEY TALKS ....
Tut tut Ecclesiastes… those aren’t Episcopalians… they’re schismatics. Since that’s not a Christian act, they may not even be Christians.
So who cares about them?
Do you think she will sue to take away Lambeth or Canterbury?
A classic noveau primate. The lack of experience is rather showing, wot? But, on the other hand, a darling proof that the ugly american need not be sexist and regarded as a male-only perogative. That and an atrocious taste in wardrobe are sure signs of arrogant american existence.
“pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces, and the broken relationships, the damaged relationships between people who have gone and people who have stayed.” Fortunately for her she won’t have to worry about us feeling too much “pain,” there won’t be enough of us left in TEC to feel pain…
Do you think she will sue to take away Lambeth or Canterbury?
Not until after she deposes the ABoC at the next JSC meeting. Well, assuming she waits that long. Perhaps she will accept Ruth Gledhill’s quotes of his comments as a renunciation of orders.
#6 Cindy -
I agree. One can only hope that her ‘plans’ (and those of her lawyers) will be undone by her own comments.
OK, something is DEFINITELY going on if even Chane is disavowing it:
Washington Bishop John B. Chane, though a longtime supporter of pro-gay causes in the church, told The Times on Sunday that rescinding the ban “will not be helpful,” adding that he did not think the “effort to overturn it will be successful.”
Wonder how long it will take before VGR and Co. begin their collective whining?
That’s what struck me too, #43. If John Chane thinks repeal won’t clear the Bishops and he turns out to be right, then stand by for the explosion.
“Wonder how long it will take before VGR and Co. begin their collective whining? “
When did the stop? I must have missed it.
That’s what struck me too, #43. If John Chane thinks repeal won’t clear the Bishops and he turns out to be right, then stand by for the explosion.
No matter what, it’s going to be interesting to watch.
Hmmm, I wonder if the PB is starting to see the distant possibility that five years from now (next year?) that TEC is out of the Anglican Communion and ACNA is the Anglican province/franchisee in the US?
We are watching a reality show dramatization of Romans, Chapter One. These verses jump out: 1:21 “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.” and. . . 1:25 “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the creator who is forever praised.” . . and 1:28 “Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what out not to be done.”
Dear Father, forgive them and open their hearts and minds to the glory of Your Son, Jesus Christ, who died “that they might turn from their wickedness and live.”
All praise and thanks be to God for the ACNA.
BettyLee (#48), I hadn’t considered that, and I think you’re spot on - with both your analysis, and your prayer that they might be turned. Bless you for that.
Also, a comment on something I haven’t seen discussed (maybe I missed it; I’ve been skimming a lot): anyone discussed the “theology” of the PB’s so-called “sermon” with the failed theology of Kevin Thew Forrester? Just seems there are some unpleasant parallels between the two. If this has appeared, someone please just direct me to the appropriate thread. Thanks…
Let me get this straight, if I can - the Presiding Bishopess of an allegedly Christian church, who tries to portray herself as a Christian, goes against clear Scriptural admonitions against suing fellow Christians, then warns an English church, one founded by schism due to that Anti-Christ in Rome refusing to give Henry VIII a life-time “Get Out of Marriage Free” card, that any effort by that English church to recognize fellow Christians is a cause of schism, and “schism is not a Christian act.” Wow! Far out! They sure must be makin’ the drugs stronger today than the ones I remember from the Sixties! Peace, man!
#31, et al.
I understand that, at times, comments have to be deleted.
But couldn’t someone have at least “blockquoted” the offensive statement so that those of us late to the party could enjo….errr——I mean,—-shake our heads sorrowfully….
So would we have the Bishops of America walk ,or anyone else for that matter, to walk in closets of darkness or to be brave and walk openly in the light of Jesus as faithful and upright examples for many other younger gay and lesbian persons who so desparately need such an example to follow?
Calhoun,
We want every individual to walk in truth and light. We do not believe truth and light can be found outside of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There are no sound theological arguments to support the practice of homosexuality. To affirm that which we believe to be sin, is the most sinful thing we can do.
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Hi gang, I think they are setting the charges under the last little stone bridge.
I sent an email to Jeffort Shori about a year ago firing her as my spritual advisor and telling her I had removed the Episcopal Church from my trust. I actually got a response from 815 noting their concern about my email. I wonder if the firing or the removal from the trust was the more important issue at 815.
I would encourage Episcopalians to personally fire Jeffort Shori. She is not a qualified Christian spritual advisor. That is what Bishops are called to be. An avalanche of firings would be in order. It would have an effect in the Episcopal Church.
If I remember correctly, when she got elected she got some conservative votes. There was a story on it and the writer said she would wreck the church and some conservatives voted for her just to get it over with. Looks like they were correct.
Factually, how many reappraisers have been “shut out of their traditional worship spaces?” I remember hearing hearing how those in Falls Church who voted NOT to leave TEC were given a chapel to worship in, rather than the main sanctuary… am I remembering correctly? This example sounds a heck of a lot more charitable than the example referenced above of Bp. Smith in CT.
Other examples from either side?
Here, here martin5 #32
Before too long, we can expect the PB to say “and you know, that cross thingy has to go - it doesn’t go with the decour of rainbows and oven mitts”!
hoggy,
You remember correctly. KJS is doing exactly as all those who voted for her (tolerating the bad taste in their mouth when doing so) thought she would do and those who voted for her knew she would do for them. Voting her in as PB was the bullseye for the wreck of TEC tht it has been headed in for 30+ years and it took a woman PB to do it.
Cindy T. in Tx,
Not too mention those reappraisers here in San Joaquin that got to keep their churches and property nd then began to try and take the ones who left. Who is getting kicked out locked out besides those in Bishop Lock Smiths diocese?
Fascinating this
http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2009/07/statement-on-the-repudiation-of-b033/
sad state our club, no I meant to say church, is in… ..I think that the line in the sand has finally been permanently drawn for many Episcopalians, ABC should possibility consider that the $ previously coming from TEC is now in ANAC
Schori’s thinly disguised threat to ++Rowan doubtless involves monetary retaliation if he foments “schism.” For instance should he dare to finally do the right thing.
That her cash is running short is nonsense. They have some $200 million in ready trust fund and cash accounts, and millions more in real property. She won’t run out any time soon. CoE and the ACC absolutely need that money, as do some lap dog 3rd world bishops favored by ABC.
I look forward to our remaining Windsor Bishop’s response to these final outrages. They cannot possibly ignore this series of parliamentary pronouncements.
teddy mak, are you sure they have even that amount in ready trust fund and cash accounts? They certainly don’t want to discuss how much they are spending of those monies on litigation, and if memory serves, there was some mention somewhere, last fall or winter about losses due to the collapse. As to property, it’s values have fallen, and mortgages for new buyers aren’t so easy to come by these days. Given how TEC has gutted it’s MDG funding, and many other cut backs, while continuing with it’s profligate spending on what it prefers to redefine mission to be defined as, I’d say that they aren’t in any position to waggle sums of cash to the ABoC or anyone else. I’ll go further and state that if she’s holding out a threat of not giving cash in future, and the ABoC or anyone else believes that TEC is in any position to bribe anyone, they are being stupid. She’s making an empty promise to them, as all her promises have been empty.
I’m sure the PB thought that the gravy train that the church had been in the past, would continue for much longer, in spite of her abuses of power and persecution. I’m sure she had planned to force out churches and even dioceses, knowing she could steal church and diocesan property, which she could use to lard up her accounts with, but it’s not played out quite as she would have liked it. The future for TEC churches and dioceses will involve those who are conservative that have remained, will ultimately be pushed out, so that property can be seized. She will also weed out any churches in poorer areas that require real, Christian mission work, she will also ultimately shut down foreign missions that don’t provide a revenue stream, after all, they were only window dressing to continue the myth of real diversity. Jefferts Schori has made plain that mission only deals with homosexuality. She’ll eventually toss as many left wing TEC bishops, etc.. under the bus as she is able, when she no longer feels they are useful to her.
knowing she could steal church and diocesan property, which she could use to lard up her accounts with…
Very nice wordsmithing Mari.
Intercessor
With post #60…
Or with the tea cozy she wears on her head.
Remember, that $200 million in property was the figure used before property values went into the sewer. TEC hasn’t come away smelling very good, and they’re spending millions on lawyers. This means they’re feeling the pinch, and they’re hoping to sell the properties that they steal from faithful Christian Anglicans. They sure won’t fill them with warm Episcopalian bodies on Sunday morning as long as they keep on losing them at the present rate.
She urged Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams to remember the “pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces, and the broken relationships, the damaged relationships between people who have gone and people who have stayed.
I hope that I am not off topic but here is another sorted mess, and the church needs to make it right. How can anyone who believes in Jesus Christ take serious what Mrs Schori says. Mrs.Schori professed many times that she does not believe in Jesus Christ as “the way, truth, and the life”. She is not a Christian but a person that makes up her own religion as she fools those Episcopalians who feel shut out of traditional worship. TECH can twist words, sentences,and paragrahs in the Bible, Prayer book and Liturgy to confuse any person who wants to believe in God. TECHis trying to confuse the Church of England too but I still can’t believe why they can not see the scam. TECH wants Money, Power, and Property. They do not care for what our beliefs, traditions or reasons are but our assets will benefit them. I really don’t care if I am x-communicated by the episcopal church for what I am saying, but this is what I feel.
I belong to ACNA so may-be not being episcopalian anymore will give me leverage. God help us when the truth is found out. I have family and friends in the episcopal church and they will end up being the victims.
I was reading Narnia, “The Lion, Witch and Wardrobe and the church reminds me of Edmund who accepts Turkish delight from the White Witch so that she can locate her sister, brother and Aslan’s crowd. I just hope that the remain episcopalians do not end up frozen when they accept that “Turkish Delight” for secrets. Please read Resolution ACC 14.11 which will become the new Episcopalian Covenent to understand what I am saying.
She urged Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams to remember the “pain of many Episcopalians in several places of being shut out of their traditional worship spaces, and the broken relationships, the damaged relationships between people who have gone and people who have stayed.”
Sorry! I made a woops error when I talked about Edmund because he takes the “Turkish Delight” out of greed but the white witch wants information about where his family and friends are hiding. Although, the reference to the story reminds me of Mrs. Schori. I just wanted to get the context to the story right. Cheers!
“Don’t foment schism?” Oh, that’s rich! What does Mrs Schori think she’s done?
Gee whiz, is anyone really suprised at her statement? Seriously?
Isn’t this the same person who would rather sell property FOR LESS MONEY to a non-Anglican group, because hell will freeze over before she will negotiate or sell TEC property to the North American Anglicans?
Yawn. Nothing to see here.
Unless I am missing something, this was over a year ago, and as predicted this spat turned into nothing of substance.
Yep, it was a year ago, but the argument still goes on. I think it’s good to dredge it up….just so no one forgets.
I paid a lunch visit to a friend who works for my former TEC parish in the Diocese of El Camino Real today, and I found that they are in deep, deep financial trouble to the tune of $70,000+, and in order to get themselves out of it, they have to resort to fundraising campaigns, AKA annual pledge drives. Of course, we all do that, but in their case, it’s all that stands between them and bankruptcy….and it’s been going on for years! The diocese is in financial trouble, but that’s something you’ll never hear about through official sources, and that too has been going on for years. Despite what Schori says, things are not the least bit rosy in TEC.