The Very Reverend Tracey Lind: “We call you by many names and come to you by many paths…”

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

St. Peter

From the Trinity Cathedral webpage:
(http://www.trinitycleveland.org/people/lind.html)

Tracey Lind lives with her partner, Emily Ingalls, in Cleveland Heights.

Sigh.  Why am I not surprised?

Remember that Lind was among the candidates for Bishop of Chicago.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Romans 1:16-19

Seems the Rev. Lind hasn’t gotten past a very basic understanding of General Revelation to a working knowledge of Specific Revelation which is required for leadership in the Church.  Pity.

And she ends the prayer like this:

“And as we, your faithful people, listen, discern and cast our ballots, may we remember that this nation is too important for anything but truth, that this world is too vulnerable for anything but peace, and that your creation is too precious for anything but love…”

I just can’t imagine opening a public prayer, even in the church, addressed to the thrice Holy God with, “As we your faithful people…” rather than, “As we your unworthy servants”...but then again, it does not appear that her prayer was addressed to the same diety.

You guys are harsh.

This is a standard inclusive prayer for a political/public forum. 

I am not ordained, and I don’t lead prayers in public, but I imagine it is very hard to offer a prayer in public and only pray to ‘your’ God.  Well, some of you will says it’s not hard at all.

I don’t know.  I’m conflicted.  If she was a straight orthodox person, would you have the same reaction to what she said?

This is indeed a new religion. This is not IMHO Christianity!

We are unworthy of His grace and forgiveness, but through the sacrifice of Jesus His Son, we are made worthy if we come with a contrite and humble heart seeking Him and repenting of our sins and giving up of our whole selves to Him and living in he Word once delivered for all!
I thinik I could get it more right than this Ms. Lind without benefit of seminary!

Tell me…  I’ve been combing the Greek Lexicons to determine if Laodicean means TEC in the original tongue…
All sarcasm aside, its come to the stage where one can no longer be shocked or surprised by any pronouncement that come out of TEC.

Paul B,

If an orthodox person gave the same prayer I would certainly have the same reaction except it would be accentuated with shock and a sense of sadness at the fall of a brother or sister.

It is one thing to pray a generalized PC prayer to “God, though I think it unworthy of a Christian minister not to pray in the name of Jesus Christ, it is quite another to go out of your way and articulate a full bodied pluralism.

Paul B. (6),  Yes. 

If she was a straight orthodox person, would you have the same reaction to what she said?

Despite the admittedly delicate touch needed at a political rally, if she was an orthodox person, she would never have said something like this.  If asked to as a condition of being there, she would have refused.

I am not ordained, and I don’t lead prayers in public, but I imagine it is very hard to offer a prayer in public and only pray to ‘your’ God.  Well, some of you will says it’s not hard at all.

Paul B,
Nope not hard at all.Choose this day whom you serve. Ms. Lind chose Christianity, not muslim, not buddhaism, she is/or suppose to be a Jesus follower, whichmakes her a Christian. “Go and proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ” is or and her charge!

If she was a straight orthodox person, would you have the same reaction to what she said?

Yep! It would be the same! Heresy is heresy, whether it comes from gay or straight, black or white, yellow or pink, male or female!

If I go into a buddhaist temple d oyou really think that I would hear a washed down politically correct prayer mantra for my Chiristian beliefs? NOT!!!!!

At the end of the prayer, after the “Amen:”

—with thanks to the Rev. William Sloane Coffin, Jr.

Hardly surprising!

I don’t know.  I’m conflicted.  If she was a straight orthodox person, would you have the same reaction to what she said?

A straight orthodox person wouldn’t say this.  In public settings the all-purpose word “God” would suffice.  Lind’s “prayer” was in fact a statement of her political ideology.

If she was a straight orthodox person, would you have the same reaction to what she said?

Oh yeah, most definitely.  I would probably be more incensed by an orthodox clergy-type missing the opportunity to pray in the Name of our Savior and/or the One, Almighty, Triune God.  To stand as Christian clergy and pray to whatever name someone has in their mind is not that far from denying the calling and vocation of Christian ministry.

That she is not orthodox and prays this way only leads me to pity and prayer that she would meet the Risen Jesus and discover the truth this nation needs most is His gracious forgiveness revealed in the Gospel.

And, no, it is not hard to stand in public and pray to Jesus Christ.  What’s hard is listening to all the politically correct faint and swoon into their chairs around the room when it happens.

Ah yes, the Scriptures do have just a little to say about this subject. I don’t think one has to wait for the hammer blow in Romans 1, we see the LORD’s commentary in Genesis 1 with the one who made the stars and Earth, or the visual imagery of Rachel sitting on the household gods, for what reason? Then the clear stated purpose of the worlds desire not to challenge directly but assimilate in Genesis 34. The continued warning of pluralism to be a thorn and snare to God’s people.

Paul, you may not be a clergyman, but try cracking the Bible and reading what has already been written on the topic. It’s not difficult to see how this lady is not consistent with Scripture. She is not even consistent with current PECUSA canons or the Creeds. This prayer would be more honest if given if she would become a Unitarian Universalist, then she would not be such a hypocrite saying something counter to what the organization she is to represents declares different.

Just to piggyback on the responses to #6, my answer is also yes.

Although not my preference, I am frequently called upon to pray in similar general settings (Rotary, Scout events, etc.).  I generally begin such prayers with “Our Father,” “Almightly God,” etc. and end them with “. . . in Thy Name, Amen.”

Not as boldly Christian as I’d prefer, but certainly not this Universalist drivel either!

A straight, orthodox person would never be invited to give the invocation at the Democratic debates.  TEC today is a left wing, secular, political organization, masquerading as a religion.

This might be helpful to Rev. Lind:

Pastor Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill

YBIC
Posse Rider

I have seldom been invited to give an invocation or other prayer at a public secular event.  But if I were to receive such an invitation, here’s how I would handle it.  I’d say by way of introduction, “As a Christian minister, I always pray to God the Father through Jesus Christ.  If you are a practicioner of some other faith, feel free to mentally substitute whatever words are appropriate for you, but I can do nothing other than come to God through Jesus Christ His Son.”  Then I’d pray, and end it with a Trinitarian doxology, or simply, “through Jesus Christ, the Lord.  Amen.”  That openly acknowledges that others may not be Christians in the audience and respects their freedom to exercise that choice, but still maintains the integrity of Christian prayer.  If a government entity doesn’t want an explicitly Christian prayer prayed, they shoudn’t ask a Christian minister to pray at any public function.  I think it’s really that simple.

It’s important to recall that part of the First Amendment is not only the “no establishment clause” that forbids the national government to endorse or support any one religious organization; there is also the complementary and equally important “free exercise clause,” that is currently the more neglected one.  In a society that is predominantly Christian (or at least where the majority claims to be believers in Jesus Christ), it’s just downright silly for Christians to muzzle themselves when praying in public.  That is a capitulation to secular humanism, which has largely become the new unofficial established religion in the U.S. It’s time to boldly reassert our constitutional right to the “free exercise” of our Christian faith.

David Handy+

There is absolutely zero chance that anything but this sort of universalist prayer would have been allowed at an national Democrat function. 

One wonders whether this woman was invited because she was a female lesbian episcopalian, or if that was all that was left after the other ministers said “Sorry, but I’m not praying to those other ‘gods’”.

Just to for kicks-

you can find an archive of prayers that happen before a house of rep. in the us here: http://chaplain.house.gov/

There is some protocol when praying before a diverse audience.

Lind says: “we call you by many names”

That is accurate for the context she is in. The we- being the audience gathered, for whom she is offering the pray up to God.

Matt says: “we don’t call God by name names.”

Of course Matt’s we is more narrow- as he is thinking of only the God of Christians. But he has called episcopalians hertics so I don’t know why his underwear is all caught up in knots over this prayer- because by his own definitions they (episcopalians) aren’t christians any way.

SHe offered a simple prayer up for a diverse audenice in the public sphere. Notthing to see here…. please move on…..

I was asked, five minutes before the dinner was to start, to do the blessing at a professional society function:
MC: “would you mind doing a quick “open prayer” (his description) before we get started?”
Me:  “I’d be glad to, but you should know I will start it with “Almighty God,” and end it with “In Jesus’ name.”“
MC:  “Ummm… could you drop the ending?”
Me:  “Sure, if I can say “All rise for the blessing.”“
MC:  “Not a good idea. Some people will not want to do that, myself included.”
Me:  “Well, you’re asking me to compromise my principles, why shouldn’t I ask you to compromise yours?”  (By this time my wife was having a hard time keeping from laughing).

Needless to say, he found someone else to do it his way.

Wow, thanks all.

As I said, I am conflicted.

What’s even more interesting, perhaps, is that I consider myself orthodox.  I don’t feel the vehemence against this that the rest of you do.  Maybe I am at the “yeah, whatever” stage.  I don’t know.

Is it what she said or is it what she didn’t say?  I guess it’s both, from what you all said.

This is exactly the sort of publicity that TEC deserves.
              We Reap What We Sow Galatians 6:7-9

worldpease,

actually my context was rather broad. I do not think that those praying to the Buddha et al are praying to God at all. So, in fact, the “we” in Cleveland do not approach God by many paths or many names. They approach idols and false gods. In that sense, yes, TEC does fall within those broad parameters

Why should anyone offer a public prayer before a political debate, of all ridiculous things?  It is impossible to offer a truly “ecumnical” prayer, which is why Catholics generally refuse to do it.  Does somebody rise and say a prayer before a hockey game?

Matt,

Thank God you live in a free country. Because, you are certainly free to express the opinion that you did. And you are free to hold any beleif, however errant, you would like. Even your suggestion that “they approach idols and false gods.”

Personally, I think the pray Lind offered was entirely kosher in the context it was offered. I don’t see her as a hertic, nor praying to a false god or idol, just as citzen who is participating the public sphere of politics. But then agian, like you, I could be wrong.

But, you might be right, Matt.

If I go into a buddhaist temple do you really think that I would hear a washed down politically correct prayer mantra for my Chiristian beliefs?

No, but then again this prayer was not said in a Budhist temple or in a Christian church but in a setting where an ecumenical prayer was called upon.

Based on the majority of the remarks made on this thread, the posters would not approve of any Christian minister saying a prayer in a public forum without making specific (and perhaps only) reference to Jesus Christ.  When I have been asked to give such prayers, I certainly include the name of Jesus Christ but I usually focus and direct the entirety of the prayer to God the Father.  If the people who invited me to give such a prayer have a problem with my mentioning the name of Jesus Christ, I would politely decline to offer the prayer.  Personally, I think all of our prayers and churches tend to focus more on one part of the Trinity than others: there are people and churches who are God the Father oriented, some that are more God the Son oriented, and some that are more God the Holy Spirit oriented.  How our prayers begin usually denotes what our primary focus is (Almighty God…Lord Jesus…Come Holy Spirit).  The fact that I am more God the Father oriented gives me a little more flexibility in offering ecumenical prayers.  However, if I was more focused on God the Son whereby the name of Jesus was going to be invoked in every sentence, I would have little to no flexibility in offering an ecumenical prayer.

In Tracy’s defense, I do think that it is possible to acknowledge that people are on different paths without having to agree about those paths.  In this particular forum, I think her prayer was adequate.

Catholic Mom,

Yes, they do pray before some hockey games.
And, I have been at gathering where RC’s pray publicaly.

Shalom, Salaam, Peace be with you

I agree with Paul B.: You guys are harsh.

The greeting above sets the context. His context is the Shalom of the people led by the God of Israel, the Salaam of the people led by the God of Islam, and the Peace of the people led by the God of Christianity. All three peoples identify their God with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We speak many languages and thus call Him by many names.

This is not a Christian religious service. It is a public event, for the religious and non-religious. The speaker has chosen to speak in the context of the God of Abraham. Congratulations to him for his forthrightness to do so. I would not hesitate to follow his example.

The Rabbit.

Pardon me, but I meant to refer to “her” prayer, not “his”.

Tracey is a she.

Bre-er Rabbit,

the Allah of Islam is not the Father of Jesus Christ.

Matt, I agree. That has nothing to do with this prayer, nor with the inclusion of Muslims within the circumspect of this prayer. A prayer for a public electioneering event is not the place to begin a debate on theology.

Nor is it a place to lie about God and the gospel. We do not all approach God through many different names nor do we do so on many different paths. There was no reason to include that lie in this prayer regardless of the setting

Pray tell, would you please identify the “lie” in this prayer? Please tie it to the specific words if you may.

Nor is it a place to lie about God and the gospel. We do not all approach God through many different names nor do we do so on many different paths. There was no reason to include that lie in this prayer regardless of the setting

Especially when one also prays that the nation is too important for anything but the truth.  In other words we need truth first; PC prayers second (or last).

sure Bre-er: we call you by many names and come to you by many paths

followed closely by:And as we, your faithful people,

In Ezekiel’s Call, I call Him by the name El Shaddai, one of the many names for God found in the Bible. And as you well know, “Allah” is simply Arabic for God. A Christian convert in Saudi Arabia would still call our god “Allah.”

For theological correctness, I would have said we come to you from many paths. Jesus is the only “Way”, of course, but that is a metaphor used by Jesus. We are not obliged to confine our definition of “path” to the “Way” spoken of by Jesus.

Jews, Muslims, and Christians (many of them, anyway) are trying to be faithful to the God of Abraham as they understand Him. The fact that their understanding of Him is flawed or incomplete is an item to be dealt with in a context other than the one for this prayer.

...sorry, Ezekiel’s Call is a song I wrote.

But Br’er Rabbit, as a Christian minister/priest you would stand up and sow the seeds of doubt as to whether Jesus is the Way to the Father?  Especially to an audience among whom there are certainly some who need to hear that Good News?

He did say none would come to the Father except through Him.  Those are some clear words and well understood by His audience at the time.

Are we now at liberty to redefine Him, the Way, and possibly the Father as well?  All of that is at stake in her prayer as I see it.

Bre-er, I said this in the original post:

“Actually, no, we don’t call God by “many names” unless of course the Very Rev. Lind means that we may address the Lord using the various names he has revealed to us in the Old and New Testaments. But, call me cynical if you will, it doesn’t seem that this is quite what the Very Rev. Lind had in mind. It seems more likely that she was suggesting that when one prays to his god, be it the Buddha, Shiva, Allah, or the Great Cosmic Yes, he necessarily prays to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. And, if this was indeed her meaning, then while she is, no doubt, wholly conformed to the doctrine and discipline of the Episcopal Church, she has stepped wholly beyond the boundaries of Christianity.”

The muslim praying to his Allah is not praying to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with correct terminology and everything to do with the nature and character of the god they worship. So, as you apparently admit, it is untrue, a lie, to suggest that “we”, even if by “we” you mean we within the Abrahamic faiths, call God many different names and approach him via many different paths.

“We call you by many names”

Ishtar, Astarte (she of raisin cakes and honey wine), Sophia?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Drew [#12]: William Sloan Coffin was (as best I could tell) a real Christian and much less theologically liberal than you might think. Don’t confuse politics with theology.

BTW, Coffin voiced respect for evangelical Christianity at a time and in a context in which it was quite unfashionable to do so.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Paul B. [#6] & Bre’r Rabbit [#30] make legitimate points about the sorts of prayers customary in political contexts. Welcome to a current version of American Civil Religion, which has never been the same as Christianity.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Our response to this prayer (including the opening point in this comment) is colored by what we know of Tracy Lind. If Billy Graham had used the same words in the same context, we would (approvingly or not) read them in a different light.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

“Why should anyone offer a public prayer before a political debate, of all ridiculous things?”—-#26

Why not?

“Does somebody rise and say a prayer before a hockey game?”—-#26

Yes, ma’am. Or would have if high schools had had hockey teams during my youth in the Deep South. We did have prayers before football and basketball games.

Rom1-6, I have travelled many paths, most of which ended up in the ditch. Finding the Way in Jesus solved a whole bunch of things in my life. The largely pagan (i.e., United States) audience needs to come from the paths they are following. One starting point toward the Way that I found was (believe it or not) the 12 step program found in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Taking that path requires that you throw yourself down before the Creator of the Universe (read the book, it’s really there). When you do that, the next thing you find is the doorway to Christ. That has been well demonstrated in Branson, Missouri.

The Rabbit.

I may have overreacted to the harshness I felt above, and there are of course more nuanced ways to approach this. Regrettably, I must do some shopping before picking up the 9-year old in my charge and cannot follow this thread closely right now.

Peace be with you,
The Rabbit.

Well, is there a prayer that a Christian minister can make in a multi-faith environment that includes Jews and Muslims? What if we add in Hindus? Buddhists? Obviously, if you submit the prayer in advance and they see it makes a special case for your own religion, you won’t be the one saying the prayer.

OK, I stand corrected. I’m told they DO pray before hockey games (actually, none that I’ve attended though).  As well they should considering the violence about to be inflicted, not to mention the extensive profanity.  Let me rephrase this—do they pray before curling matches?  Tennis games?  Badminton?

Frankly, IMHO (and I say this as a Democrat) the Democrats just want to be seen praying on TV and they’ll take any ridiculous excuse to do it.  Sorry…praying before a political debate is cheap showboating.  I wouldn’t conduct it and I wouldn’t participate in it.  When I pray, I’m actually trying to communicate with God, not with the voters.  If the Pope were there praying in the name of the Trinity I would say it was inappropriate.

Drew [#12]: William Sloan Coffin was (as best I could tell) a real Christian and much less theologically liberal than you might think. Don’t confuse politics with theology.

I don’t, although the overlap on some issues (abortion, homosexuality) is so great because theology has worldview implications.

As for Coffin, I hope that he was a Christian—it’s certainly up to God to judge now.  Regarding your glowing review of him, however, it’s worth noting that he was a wife beater and an adulterer.  To wit:
[a href=“http://neveryetmelted.com/?p=887”]http://neveryetmelted.com/?p=887 [/a]
But as the 1970s advanced, with the Vietnam War and the Protest Movement winding down, Nixon in the White House, and the old Yale passing away as the result of the impact of coeducation, Coffin experienced increasing problems in his personal life. He took a year’s sabbatical from Yale in 1973, hoping to write his memoirs and save his second marriage. The effort failed. In November 1974, he inflicted a hairline skull fracture on his second wife. He had begun to beat her when they quarreled.

and
[a href=“http://www.rasmusen.org/x/2006/04/25/1150/”]

http://www.rasmusen.org/x/2006/04/25/1150/ [/a]

… in the middle of one night, Coffin snapped. Unable to respond verbally, and feeling himself at the end of his emotional rope, he reacted primitively, physically. “I used to be a big judo guy.” he explained twenty years later “In the army I taught judo. So I know that the easiest way to take somebody out is to hit them very nicely right across here [indicating the center of the forehead, just above the bridge of the nose] a nice sharp blow like that.” He referred to this as “a gentle way of taking them out.” “I felt absolutely miserable,” he remembered. “Then I carried her back and put her in bed and went out in the woods. … And she felt very penitent about it all” in the morning.

and

Late one night in November 1974, they clashed again: “I said ‘Bill, I am scared tonight. Please talk to me.’ ‘I will not talk to you.’ ‘Just sit and listen.’ But I was hitting right at his most vulnerable spot. I said I wanted to talk, and I warned to talk about how I felt, and so forth and so on. And I pestered him. ‘Please, please talk to me. Please, please talk to me. And he went in the other room. And I came in and woke him up again and I said. ‘Please, talk to me.’ . . . I was pretty persistent. I mean, I can’t say that I wasn’t provoking.”

They had been scheduled to see a counselor the following day. Harriet remembered. “And he refused. And that’s when he clobbered me.” He remembers that it was about three in the morning, that she was drunk, and that “she broke a door down to a room where I was trying to sleep. . ,. So I said. ‘What the hell, I’ve got to do this again.’ Only this time it was dark, and I guess I didn’t take quite enough aim.” He understated. He took her to the hospital in the morning. His one judo chop had given her “a huge black eye,” she remembered. “My whole face was swollen.” He had also given her a hairline skull fracture.

Coffin told his friend Arnold Wolf: he told Ron Evans; he told others. Wolf, who could not stand Harriet, said, “We all wanted to hit her. My then wife wanted to hit her.” But when he and Coffin talked, he said, “Coffin, you can’t hit anybody but you certainly can’t hit your wife. You’ve got to get out of the marriage if that’s the way you feel. Divorce yes. Abuse no.” But Coffin did not fully understand the gravity of the situation. He did not think Harriet needed to go to the hospital. “I didn’t hit her very hard.” Wolf remembered him saying in his own defense. To Ron Evans, he was “so terribly remorseful that he had allowed this… to get to the point where he’d struck out.”

It was a measure of the loyalty Bill Coffin inspired in his friends– and Harriet’s isolation– that some were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. For Miriam Horowitz, the question was simple. “When I said, ‘How did this happen?’ she said, `I asked for it.’” When Janet Evans heard about it, her first reaction was, “If Bill had hit Harriet I’m sure he had good reason.” She had seen Harriet in some situations where… if somebody has had a lot lo drink and they’re being impossible and difficult you just say tchew, you know, out of here! So that’s my fantasy.” But the complicity of friends could not hide the fact that Bill and Harriet Coffin were in deep trouble.

and

Speaking of which, Harriet was the second of his three wives. He was unfaithful to his first wife, Eva. Here’s a story about the vacation trip they took without the three kids, in the hopes of repairing their marriage:

… proved far easier than relating to Eva, for his attentions lay elsewhere. On the way to India their plane stopped briefly in Teheran. While Eva slept, Coffin sneaked off the plane and scrawled a note he gave to a French officer to deliver to Manya Stromberg (by then widowed but still working in the French embassy and well-known to the French community), suggesting a rendezvous in Paris at the end or the summer. Unaware of this remarkable maneuver, Eva wondered all during the trip why her husband seemed even more distant than usual. They visited temples with erotic sculptures and she would go in while “he would sit on a wall and talk to the coconut gatherers or something.” Instead of mending the rift, “there was almost nothing going on between us that whole time.” When she finally read Coffin’s account of this episode in his memoir, the summer finally made sense, “For a forty-year-old man.’ he had concluded accurately, “I might be fleet of foot but I was also very confused.” He did see Manya in Paris. He had “carefully” planned to see her only with Bailey. At “the last moment, however,” he went “an hour early,…

Sorry, I can’t share your admiration of him.

You guys need to knock it off. You might be talking bad about the next bishop of Central Florida or South Carolina.

The Very Rev. Tracey Lind is Dean of Trinity Episcopal Cathedral as well as a city planner and author. Her ministry includes work for environmental justice, interfaith relations, sustainable urban planning, arts and culture, and the diversity of the Episcopal Church.

Seems even on the Cathedral website Christ remains the name that must not be spoken.  Would it be too much to ask that they at least throw the Gospel a crumb of ministry?

Heh, clearly Catholic Mom doesn’t live down South. Here in Texas, there’s a prayer before every football game, “Cowboy Church” before rodeos on Sunday, blessing of the fleet, blessing of bikers, the Red Mass for judges, the White Mass for doctors, and I even saw a priest trotted out to bless the soccer fields at the beginning of youth soccer season. Some city councils also start their meetings with a prayer.

I didn’t see the Lind prayer. Was she the ONLY clergy member offering a benediction? If so, I can understand why she kept the references very broad indeed so that everyone is “covered,” so to speak. But it’s rather odd—usually, there’s a Christian minister, a rabbi, and an imam present if prayers are to be said at all.

OK, I give up.  Apparently in Texas they have televised prayers before Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune.    I still think it cheapens the whole concept of prayer.  (“When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites who stand in front of the camera praying loudly for the audience to see.”)

CM, It may not be your cup of tea but you don’t need to make fun of it. I think it’s nice.

Drew [#48]: Nice job of putting words in my mouth.

I wrote that “Coffin was (as best I could tell) a real Christian and much less theologically liberal than you might think” [#46].
That does not count as “glowing” neither does it necessarily amount to “admiration.”

Drew [#48]: Nice job of putting words in my mouth.

I wrote that “Coffin was (as best I could tell) a real Christian and much less theologically liberal than you might think” [#46].

That does not count as “glowing” neither does it necessarily amount to “admiration.”

Please forgive me for misstating your position.

I hope hope Coffin repented, but I take a dim view of wife-beating adulterers.

Well, is there a prayer that a Christian minister can make in a multi-faith environment that includes Jews and Muslims? What if we add in Hindus? Buddhists? Obviously, if you submit the prayer in advance and they see it makes a special case for your own religion, you won’t be the one saying the prayer.

I offer this as an possible change:  “Almighty God,  we call you by many names and seek (as opposed to ‘come to you’) you by many paths and we ask you to fill our hearts and minds with Your Truth (insert specifics of the occassion here) I ask these things in the Name of Jesus Christ.  Amen.

This opening speaks to what is.  Muslims, Hindu, Jews, etc all seek God along many paths.  There is only one way to God, Jesus and the prayer asks that we be filled with God’s Truth (again, that is Jesus). 

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

Good points, Matt+ and NRA+ regarding praying at public functions.  I typically am asked to pray for family functions, and make it a point to pray for my family when we dine out.  At family functions, I usually attempt to defer to the head of the household, but when they defer back, I’ll pray the Lord’s (more aptly, Disciple’s, since it was given to them) Prayer.  Everyone joins in. 

I have non-believers in my family, too.  For those events, I’ll ask to pray, and then do a short blessing (Either, “Please bless this food Lord, Amen,” or “Come Lord Jesus, be our guest, and let thy gifts to us be blessed, Amen).  It sort of acknowledges that I respect that my unbelieving relatives are uncomfortable with the idea of prayer, but lets them respect the believer’s need to request God’s blessing.  Since they were raised as I was raised, Jesus is understood to be the one addressed in the prayer. 

That said, if I were asked to pray at a public function, I’d have to make a point to make sure everyone understood it was a Christian prayer. 

Now that I think of it, we have acquaintances who are members of a cult.  Wouldn’t it be a doozy if…

I like your prayer, Phil Snyder. Thanks.
The Rabbit.

When I am asked to pray in public I do the follow: a) accept the invitation without asking questions and b) pray in the bold and clear and unmistakable name of Jesus.  Now, the Democratic National Party has never asked me to open a convention, but I have prayed on local TV for City of Bakersfield and County of Kern meetings and here’s the exact prayer I used: “Almighty God our heavenly Father, behold and visit, we pray, this city of Bakersfield.  Renew the ties of mutual regard which form our civic life.  Enable us to eliminate poverty, prejudice, and opression, that peace may prevail with righteousness, and justice with order.  Send down upon those who hold office in this city and county the Spirit of wisdom, charity, and justice; that with steadfast purpose they may faithfully serve in their offices to promote the well being of all people; through Jesus Christ our Lord.  Amen.”

I cobbled this prayer together and keep it tucked in my BCP for future use if called upon.

“Allah” is simply Arabic for God. A Christian convert in Saudi Arabia would still call our god “Allah.”

My Orthodox jurisdiction is Antiochian, so there are many Saudis, Jordanians and Palestinians in our congregation.  Most assuredly, Christian converts in the Middle East do NOT call our Triune God “Allah.”

#59 Thank you, Fr. Michael. An excellent model for all to follow. 
“...him will my Father honor.” (John 12:26)

Christian converts in the Middle East do NOT call our Triune God “Allah.”

Thanks for the info, Pilgrim. I gathered my information from a friend who is an undercover evangelist inside Saudi Arabia. Perhaps his converts are the exception. It is very dangerous for all of them. The converts from Islam mentioned on my website are not native Arabic speakers.
The Rabbit.

Catholic Mom says:
“If the Pope were there praying in the name of the Trinity I would say it was inappropriate.”

So I guess when we were enjoined to “Pray without ceasing” it really meant that you should pray as long as it was politically correct to do so….

In the words of “Fiddler on the Roof”:

“There’s a blessing for everything.” If we live our lives “before God”, and “in Him we live, and move, and have our being,” why not pray before Rodeo, hockey, political debate, and anywhere else you fancy?

I’m not a fan of Tracy Lind’s theology, I think as a Christian she should have prayed in Jesus Name, and I’m not down with the Pluralism. But on the other hand, the Democratic Party needs all the prayer it can get. Why not?

Drew [#55]: I also take a dim view of wife-beating adulterers. I knew Coffin was divorced from his first wife, Eva. I didn’t know about his beating and cheating on Harriet, both of which were reprehensible.

The US military, or at least the Navy, has relatively specific requirements for its chaplains, which include “no proselytizing” (making the Great Commandment a bit of a problem, obviously)—most of us chose to interpret that as “no poaching”, but the unchurched were fair game.  Prayers were expected to be directed to Almighty God, and generally end in “in Thy Holy Name we pray.  Amen”, with <u>whose</u> Holy Name being made clear by the gold cross on our left lapel.  Chaplains who insisted on praying ‘In Jesus’ Name” were first advised, then counselled, and then found their careers ending after one tour (which meant that the Episcopalians in their flock wouldn’t be served by an Episcopal chaplain, probably).  [Their next chaplain could be a Mormon—the military considers Mormons to be Protestant Christians.]

But… that was for “secular occasion” prayers, such as Changes of Command and the like.  There were no restrictions placed on my preaching, or celebrating the Mass on Sundays, although, in the field, I was expected to provide a generic “General Protestant” service as well—whatever a “General Protestant” is.  I decided that a “General Protestant” service was Morning Prayer, and had no Commanding Officers complain about it.

Chaplaincy, and particularly military chaplaincy, creates some real dilemmas for orthodox clergy.  If you refuse to compromise, you can’t remain a chaplain, and Episcopalian Marines, sailors, soldiers, airmen and Coast Guardsmen go unserved—it’s not as though a sailor can go to the parish down the street while in the middle of the Pacific.  At sea, though, I was able to give a “non-Jesus-specific” prayer every evening over the 1-MC (ship’s loudspeaker system)... a prayer which was in every way orthodox except that I prayed, as Jesus did, to His Father, and the Eucharist was celebrated weekly… while I was also responsible for ensuring that any Jews, Baptists, Muslims, Wiccans (I wish I were kidding—I’m not), Mormons, or whatever else could practice their own religion, using lay leaders.  I was constantly cognoscent of the compromise inherent in the restrictions on prayer as ‘secular functions’.  Each chaplain must prayerfully decide whether that price is worth paying.

re #66, similar responsibilities devolve upon chaplains licensed for ministry in VA hospitals.
The Rabbit.

Ah the challenge of “Civil Religion” and multi-culturalism. 

This is an ongoing topic of discussion among military chaplains.  As a now retired Air Force chaplain I usually followed the standard formula “In your Holy Name” but was impressed by a Mormon chaplain who introduced his prayer with, “I invite you to pray according to your tradition as I pray according to mine.”  The argument that a Christian can only approach the Throne of Grace in prayer through the name of Jesus was always in my mind and as a representative of the Christian Faith I must not compromise essential beliefs - in effect denying Christ.  We were taught in Chaplain’s School to be faithful representatives of our endorsing faith groups otherwise the “civil religion” imposed would constitute an “establishment of religion”.  So it naturally followed that chaplains were expected to facilitate the “free exercise of religion” and “cooperate without compromise”.  This meant that we could always step away from a situation that would compromise our faith group’s doctrine or deeply held religious convictions.  Unfortunately some senior supervising chaplains were not supportive of Christian chaplains who did this.

“There’s a blessing for everything.” If we live our lives “before God”, and “in Him we live, and move, and have our being,” why not pray before Rodeo, hockey, political debate, and anywhere else you fancy? 

YOU should pray anywhere you fancy.  In fact, at all times.  The questions is should a person be designated to stand up before trivial secular functions and offer a prayer when that means that either 1) the person will have to offer a meaningless “ecumenical” prayer or 2) that person will pray in the name of Jesus when there are people there that do not want that.  Please note that is DIFFERENT from a religious event, such as a wedding, or an event at a religious institution, such as a parochial school, or even a completely secular private event where the people sponsoring the events are free to (and should) do exactly as they wish.

There was a story in the NY Times today about an Orthodox Jewish woman who obtained a settlement in a suit with a school district because her son’s school in spite of being asked, told, ordered, etc. continued to have people stand up and pray in the name of Jesus before soccer games, tiddliwink contests, PTA meetings and everything else.  I’m totally sympathetic to her.  My school district is beginning to approach more than 50% Asian.  I am definitely not going to be happy if they start basketball games with an invocation to Krishna.  The only alternative is some wishy-washy prayer that implies that neither the person praying nor the listeners have any specific religious beliefs, such as the one being harshly criticized right here. 

In my opinion, the sole purpose of the prayer before the Democratic debate was to advance the current strategy of the Democratic Party of looking more religious than they used to.  To me this is exactly the type of situation Jesus refered to when he said “don’t stand out on the street praying loudly so all the people around you will say “gosh, what a pious guy he is” but pray quietly and sincerely in your room. ”

[Their next chaplain could be a Mormon—the military considers Mormons to be Protestant Christians.]

CanonZ :  Why would the military consider Mormons to be “Protestant Christians?”  Although the Mormons consider themselves Christians, most informed people would disagree.  However, the Mormons claim to not be Protestant because they were not formed as a result of the Protestant movement again Rome.

I am definitely not going to be happy if they start basketball games with an invocation to Krishna.

You have the option of not praying with the Krishnas, as do the other non-Krishnas.  No biggie.  I seriously doubt though, that a Krishna prayer would offend a so-called atheist, under similar circumstances. 

I’m not in favor of everyday compulsery prayer being required by public schools.  But I am not opposed to having prayer at a sporting event, or having a teacher lead a Bible-study group with students.  This is the world we live in, CM - there are the out-and-out idolators, and the so-called atheists, and Christians all running around.  Children at public schools will eventually enter into that world.  Better that they understand that sooner, rather than later.

But I am not opposed to having prayer at a sporting event, or having a teacher lead a Bible-study group with students. 

Maybe I’m not getting where you’re coming from here, but it seems to me that these are two totally different things.  A voluntary group of students gets together to study the Bible vs.  a student in a public school has to sit in their seat and listen to someone of a particular religion direct prayers to their God. 

I don’t believe the Orthodox Jewish child in the story in today’s NY Times should have to listen to or passively participate in prayers offered up to Jesus (which is a BIG BIG heresy in Judaism, akin—to them—to praying to idols) nor do I believe that my son should have to sit in public school and listen to a teacher offer up prayers to Allah or Krishna. As I mentioned before, Christians are very close to being a minority in my school system.  Diwali is at least as big a holiday as Christmas here.  My son’s regular classroom teacher is Indian.  He is in a special after-school math enrichment class in which he is the ONLY non-Asian child.  If they start praying in that class, it ain’t going to be to Jesus.  If we ever DID agree on a “compromise” prayer that Jews, Christians, Moslems, and Hindus could all say, it would be junk.  If they want to have an after-school class to study the Hindu scriptures, I have no problem with it.  Anybody can voluntarily get together and study anything they like.

Catholic Mom says,

“Diwali is at least as big a holiday as Christmas here. “

Hey, I get Diwali OFF. 

It’s not your parents US of A anymore.

Fr. Matt: “They approach idols and false gods. In that sense, yes, TEC does fall within those broad parameters” and later, “The Allah of Islam is not the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

I sometimes suspect you are looking for heresy (and a heretic) under every rock. When (please tell me, I could use some time management training) do you find time to pastor your flock? father your kids? husband your wife? take care of yourself?

BTAIM, truly: Do you honestly believe TEC approaches idols and false gods? Can you name them? Are they in the BCP? lectionaries? Lex orandi lex credendi.

And lemme see and think now… The God of Israel, YHWH, is worshiped in Islam as Allah. YHWH, I believe, is also the Father of our Lord. And so when, pray tell, did this God bifurcate (or what is it amoebas do) (or trifurcate? b/c I guess you’d say that the God worshiped by Jews is also not the Father of our Lord?) to become Allah and the God who is the Father of our Lord? You’re surely not saying there are two gods, are you? or three? A simple genaeology (and my faith) would say no, there is one, who is Allah, YHWH, and God the Father of our Lord. We three faiths share the same God. Somewhere along the line we split up in our understanding of who God is and how God self-reveals. (i.e., through Jesus Christ or Mohammed or the prohpets and the coming Messiah)

But God/Allah/YHWH did not change.

How disingenuous, Padre Wayne. The Christian God is triune. Is the Islamic Allah also triune? I think they would not take that suggestion kindly. Nor would the Jews. Christ is the son of God and a person of the trinity to the Christian. He is a prophet, second to Mohammed, in Islam. We can only see it as being “all the same God” if we cease to believe our own faith and greatly modify what we deem the faith of others to be. We ask them to cease believing their own faiths if we ask them to do likewise. I thought you revisionists weren’t literalists about word meanings?

As for the BCP and its lectionary - it keeps changing, doesn’t it? We have a new Lectionary Lite. Then there is the plain fact that many priests omit the creed, they omit a lot of things in fact. Just because it’s in the BCP doesn’t mean TEC actually *uses* it. Or believes it. We do notice these things, you know.

How disingenuous, oscewicee. I wrote, “Somewhere along the line we split up in our understanding of who God is and how God self-reveals.”
I believe that God is the Holy Trinity. Islam and Judaism do not. That does not negate the possibility that we ultimately worship the same God.

Again: God/Allah/YHWH did not change. We did.

Do you honestly believe TEC approaches idols and false gods? Can you name them?...
did this God bifurcate

.
<strike>Whine</i> Wayne… let’s take baby steps. Would you agree that it is possible to distort the attributes of the Biblical God to the point where it is inaccurate in that it no longer corresponds to scripture? If so, is worshiping this God the same as worshiping the Christian God, even though the word used to refer to this god is the same? If you are worshiping a false or non-existent God, then is it permissible to call this idolatry?

gain: God/Allah/YHWH did not change. We did.

Padre, however do you resolve the meaning of “lead”? Is it the same wherever you encounter it? But has a different meaning because *you* are different?

Thanks for asking Padrewayne,

1. my parish is doing fantastic, growing numerically, spiritually and in every other way. We were down in the 30s and 40s several years ago now we are in the 80s just about every Sunday and gaining…and that in a diocese that has shrunk its ASA at a rate of 12% over the last 10 yrs. Most of our growth has not come from disgruntled transfers either. About half are from other denominations and much of the rest have only come to faith in the last three years.

2. I wake up at 4am do my devotions and then write from 5-8:30am, the rest of the day I just check in on the threads, so I manage to do parish work about 60hrs a week. Again, thanks for asking.

3. As for heresy hunting, trust me, in TEC there’s no need to “hunt”.

Fr. Matt says; ” As for heresy hunting, trust me in TEC there’s no need to hunt. “

Falling off the chair laughing…..... Boy, talk about saying it as it is!!

Heh Heh Heh.

RE: “I wake up at 4am do my devotions and then write from 5-8:30am, the rest of the day I just check in on the threads, so I manage to do parish work about 60hrs a week.”

Thanks for the “time management training”, Matt.  Maybe it will be helpful for Padre Wayne.  ; > )

And lemme see and think now… The God of Israel, YHWH, is worshiped in Islam as Allah. YHWH,

Since they’re the same, why don’t you simply convert to Islam?  I’m sure Muslims are as accomodating to their heretics as we are to ours. 

Oh yeah, I know what you’re thinking:  “Ah now Moot, now you’re just being ridiculous.” 

Of course I am, Wayne.  Just as you are “just being Wayne.” 

(Yawn)

#82: “Oh yeah, I know what you’re thinking:  “Ah now Moot, now you’re just being ridiculous.”

Of course I am, Wayne.  Just as you are “just being Wayne.””

Because I worship God in Christ Jesus, in deep faith that—for me—God has self-revealed through his Son our Lord, I am a Christian.

(Yawn)

And Good Grief, Matt, YES—what a schedule! Of course, you’re younger…
Blessings on the growth of your parish.

Maybe I’m not getting where you’re coming from here, but it seems to me that these are two totally different things.

 
Correct. 

A voluntary group of students gets together to study the Bible vs.  a student in a public school has to sit in their seat and listen to someone of a particular religion direct prayers to their God.

Absolutely.  In the public school classroom, it is inappropriate for the teacher (who has authority over the children) to pray.  We agree moreover that it is not inappropriate imo for a teacher to hold a voluntary Bible-study.  That said, I do not consider praying at a public sporting event to be on par with compulsery public-school prayer;  And that is because the one leading the prayer at the sporting event does not have authority over the crowd. 

Again, if you disagree with a Krisha praying at such an event, then don’t pray with him.  And if you disagree on principal with your own priest praying at the same event, then as a member of the crowd you have the option of opting out of that prayer, as well.

Because I worship God in Christ Jesus, in deep faith that—for me—God has self-revealed through his Son our Lord, I am a Christian.

The problem of course, is that this statement is wholly inconsistent with this one:

The God of Israel, YHWH, is worshiped in Islam as Allah. YHWH, I believe, is also the Father of our Lord.

This confession, if it is your genuine confession and neither sarcasm nor honest ignorance, is not the confession of a Christian.  It is in fact, a lie from the pit of Hell, and to the extent that you perpetrate the lie, you are in league with the auther of the lie.

Padre Wayne, God did not self-reveal “for you” - Christ pre-dated you by 2,000 years.  God became incarnate for all of us (at all times: for Christ descended to Hades and preached even to the dead - 1 Pet 4:6), or, to borrow from Fr. Alexander Schmemann, “for the life of the world.”

I just found a great website; here is just one of many articles from it. I’ll post the link here, then I’m going back to the site. It’s quite revealing. http://www.islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/Silent-Seismic-Revolution-Muslims-Leaving-Islam.htm

3. As for heresy hunting, trust me, in TEC there’s no need to “hunt”.

Score one for Father Kennedy. Sad, but true.

Absolutely.  In the public school classroom, it is inappropriate for the teacher (who has authority over the children) to pray.  We agree moreover that it is not inappropriate imo for a teacher to hold a voluntary Bible-study.  That said, I do not consider praying at a public sporting event to be on par with compulsery public-school prayer; And that is because the one leading the prayer at the sporting event does not have authority over the crowd. 

Not sure why the absence of authority is the defining issue.  A school sports event is a public event held on public grounds which children who attend a public school are encouraged to attend.  The price of attendance should not have to include listening to a prayer offered in the name of Jesus or watching someone burn incense to a statue of a three-headed elephant god. 

In case you think the latter is a reductio ad absurdum,  we have a hindu temple within two miles of here (and a mosque too, I might add.)  In my son’s boy scout troop (would I be getting repetitive if I mentioned that he is the only Caucasian in his den?)  they recently did a session on different religious practices.  My son brought in a small advent wreath and explained the significance (it was news to everybody there, I can tell you) and someone else brought in a little Hindu home altar and lit candles and chanted a Sanskrit prayer.  This is a voluntary gathering and was intended for the express purpose of sharing religious practices, so it’s fine.  Furthermore, nobody was praying collectively for the whole group.  (“Father, we ask…etc.) 

But when my son goes to his after-school math enrichment class (did I mention he is the only Caucasian in it?) I don’t want the class to start with burning incense to Ganesh and I don’t think it unreasonable that it not start with a prayer to Jesus—- or a prayer to Mary either. 

When asking yourself “is this an appropriate occasions for prayer” I would suggest considering how you would feel if your child were attending an event and a priest stood up and said “Holy Mary, Ever Virgin, we ask you to intercede with your Son today and….”  I suspect that if he were attending a friend’s First Communion you would find it appropriate, and if he were attending his school’s Field Day, you wouldn’t like it.

When asking yourself “is this an appropriate occasions for prayer” I would suggest considering how you would feel if your child were attending an event and a priest stood up and said “Holy Mary, Ever Virgin, we ask you to intercede with your Son today and….” I suspect that if he were attending a friend’s First Communion you would find it appropriate, and if he were attending his school’s Field Day, you wouldn’t like it.

A cursory reading of my posts would indicate otherwise.

A cursory reading of my posts would indicate otherwise

Well…I did say I only suspected it.  Actually, your posts DO suggest you’d tolerate it, but they are silent on how much you’d like it.

However, I’d still like to make one important logistical point—how the heck do you decide on who is going to give this prayer in the first place?  Is it a Christian every time?  Is it a Protestant every time?  Do we do the rotating Protestant/Catholic/Jewish thing?  What do you do when the school (as mine does) has about 1% Jews and about 30% Hindus?  Do the Jews get equal time notwithstanding they represent 1% of the population?  How about the Wiccans??  Do they get any time?  Satan worshippers??

The biggest problem—the one represented in the lawsuits—is that in some areas its a Protestant each and every time.  It’s only when the Protestants start being the minority that the Christians start taking the problem of “equal time” seriously.  But I’ll repeat my view here—this is a totally unnecessary problem in the first place.  You do not need to pray before a public school tiddleywinks game.

Padre Wayne, Christians worship the Triune God, who has always been a trinity of persons and a unity of being.  God’s triunity was implicit in the Old Testament, and explicit in the New.  The God the Jews worship is the same God that Christians worship.  The Jews, however, do not recognize the Trinity—unless they come to believe in Jesus as the Messiah who was promised so often in the Scriptures.

Mohammad invented his religion, and latched onto Yahweh as a convenient deity.  He explicitly denies in his so-called revelation that God is triune.  He denies the divinity of Jesus.  Allah is not the same as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Nor is the same as the God the Jews worship—1) Allah is not implicitly triune; and 2) the character of Yahweh and of Allah are profoundly different.  Islam claims to worship the God of Abraham, but they do not.  Allah is an invention of a very clever man.

This is the standard nothing Address to “Whoever” a supernatural critter might be.  It informs it of what it already knows, then proceeds to talk about whatever is on the prayer’s mind, preach a bit, comment a bit, then say “Amen”.  It isn’t prayer, but it makes suckers shut up and listen to it.  The solution is to stop being a sucker.

Catholic Mom,

It’s only when the Protestants start being the minority that the Christians start taking the problem of “equal time” seriously.

Given my own positive prayer experiences with Catholics, I guess I’m trying to understand how Protestants and Catholics are necessarily at odds when it comes to the matter of public prayer. 

RE:  the issue of “equal” time, it’s easy, peasy:  If someone gets into a snit, then pick the three most representative groups, then do a lottery based on weighted averages, then the winner each time gets to do the public prayer.  Then, have the designated prayer person introduce themselves as a Christian or Wiccan or whatever, do a quick disclaimer for those not comfortable, and do the prayer. 

But I don’t think it would come down to that, really.  Christianity is and always has been offensive.  It’s even offensive to some who claim to be Christians (as we have seen on this thread).  Islam or Wicca otoh, is not as offensive to the non-Christian. 

The issue is (i.e., if you believe, per Scripture, that Christianity is offensive by virtue of it being The True Religion), do Christians get to pray;  Not, which group gets to pray. 

Me?  I see it as an opportunity to plant the seed of the Gospel, or at least to water it.

Two responses, a bit late in the thread…
First, Piedmont asked “Why would the military consider Mormons to be ‘Protestant Christians?’ Although the Mormons consider themselves Christians, most informed people would disagree.  However, the Mormons claim to not be Protestant because they were not formed as a result of the Protestant movement again Rome.” 

I suspect, Piedmont, that you’ve never served in the military—most of us who have gave up on asking “why” the military does what it does a long time ago!  Seriously, what I was told by senior chaplains was that it was the Mormon’s “Endorsing Agent” (the faith group’s liaison with the Armed Forces) that made the decision, and the gummint’s policy was to say ‘You can be whatever you choose to be—we can’t tell you what you believe’.  Where it became an issue during my service was when I was stationed in Okinawa, and a Mormon chaplain, a full Commander (Lt Colonel equivalent in the Marines, Army, or Air Force) was the Deputy Senior Chaplain for Marine Forces-Okinawa… but the evangelical Protestant Chapel congregation didn’t want him leading services because they didn’t consider him Christian.  It created some flak and hard feelings, for the second-most senior chaplain to not have a place in the chapel rota.

Second, to Catholic Mom, you wrote “I don’t want the class to start with burning incense to Ganesh and I don’t think it unreasonable that it not start with a prayer to Jesus—- or a prayer to Mary either.”  I would certainly find praying to Mary inappropriate—so would the Pope.  Asking Mary to pray for us to her Son and her God, however, is a different thing (just as I’d ask one of the Great Cloud of Witnesses who happens to still be alive to pray for me to her Son and her God).  “...Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us and at the hour of our deaths,” is a far different thing from mistaking the Virgin, the ‘proto-Christian, for a fourth member of the Triune God.  I would strongly guess from one of your later posts (#89) that this is a difference you’re well aware of, but since it’s a calumny I’ve heard so often directed at Roman (and Anglo-) Catholics—that we ‘pray to Mary instead of God’—I thought it worthy of clarification.
FCZ+

PS: Father Matt:  Four am???  Good heavens!  Nothing I said to God at that hour would be comprehensible, even to the Omniscient!  For me, 4 am isn’t the start of a good day—it’s the end of a bad night.

I am truly sorry that I did not see this earlier. Those of us in NE Ohio know Tracy very well. She has advocated to make Easter more friendly to other religions… Seems that the whole thing is offensive to certain Jewish sects… Gee!... She also wants to make Christmas songs less offensive to Islam and Judiaism… I am a Christian. I do not particularly care if someone doesn’t likfe my faith… that is their business… leave me to mine. We have practically destroyed the best hymns because some very liberal thinkers decided that they needed to be gender neutral. Arrrrgh!  Did you see the Pope has put out that a Baptism MUST use Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit? Seem that some RC priest were using “other” versions. This whole revisionist trend makes my teeth hurt.

When praying at a public event I know to Whom I am speaking.  So does He, so it matters not to me what the speaker says.  I am just glad prayer is still permissable in public.  If the secularists have their way, it won’t be. 

CM, please quit dissing Texas.  We like it here.  One of the things we like is that we can pray at a football game or a rodeo or whatever.  99.5% of the time these prayers will end with, “I ask these things in Jesus’ name.”  I will happily tolerate that .5% of the time to have the 99.5%.

I have not “dissed” Texas in any way, shape, or form.  I expressed my opinion about prayer at an open public school event.  The fact that some people in Texas disagree with me no more means that I am “dissing” them than that they are dissing me.  Are you suggesting I shouldn’t express my opinion about something until I find out what the prevailing view is in Texas?

getting back to the thread ...
Does anyone know which churches do not require you to be baptized in order to take communion? I am not sure if it is hersey but it is against the canons. I know three.
Grace Cathedral, Topeka, Kansas
All Saints, Pasadena, California
St. Stephens, Santa Clarita, California

martin4 (#99),

I guess there is no statue of limitations on reviving old threads.  I see that you’ve reactivated one that petered out four months ago.

It would be useful to have a list such as you describe, i.e., a list of churches with an officially stated POLICY of admitting unbaptized, unconverted people to Holy Communion.  But I strongly suspect that such a list would include many HUNDREDS of churches in TEC.  Asking for their names, is probably like Jesus asking the man with the Legion of demons all their names.  So maybe just a short list of representative prominent churches should suffice.

But I’ll mention an egregious example from my own experience.  Calvary Cathedral in Sioux Falls, SD, is small, but it still is the cathedral for the diocese, that comprises the whole state.  I attended a funeral there while caring for my ailing mother (Sioux Falls is my hometown), and that funeral was a scandalous example of this new manifestation of the (false) inclusivist gospel.  Here’s the sad story.

The funeral was for a beloved deacon at the cathedral who was a Lakota (or Sioux ethnically).  This elderly deacon had served on various Indian reservations and won much respect even among the non-Christians there.  The bishop was the celebrant (+Creighton Robertson, himself an Indian), the dean preached, and the cathedral was packed, standing room only, with a large contingent of Lakotas present, some of whom weren’t believers.

This was three years ago, in the summer of 2005.  The dean read the gospel, choosing as his text the familiar one from John 14:1-6.  Although I didn’t know the dean at all, and knew nothing about him, I immediately got suspicious when he abruptly ended the gospel before finishing verse 6.  That is, he read, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”  Stop.  He refused to read, “No one comes to the Father, except through me.”

My suspicions intensified during his homily, which was basically just a eulogy, praising the virtues of the beloved old deacon.  In about a 15 minute sermon, I think the dean mentioned the name of Jesus once, and he never spoke of the reality of the resurrection as the basis of our hope in the face of death.

And then came the offertory.  With the bishop present, the dean pointedly invited EVERYONE to receive communion.  He made a big deal out of it.  Now he didn’t explicitly mention unbaptized non-Christians being welcome to receive, but in fact it was obvious to almost everyone present that there were unbelievers present.  For they had been allowed to pay tribute to the dead deacon in their own way before the service started with some traditional tribal music that was used as part of the prelude but reflected pagan, not Christian, Sioux culture (and there are both kinds).

I was horrified.  And the bishop, though presiding, said nothing about it, and proceeded as if nothing was wrong.  And so the ironic result was that a significant number of non-Christians did receive that day, but I as an orthodox believer in Christ abstained.

Such are the confusing times in which we live.

David Handy+

Oops. A correction and clarification.  I’ve just remembered that the date for that funeral at the cathedral in Sioux Falls was actually in the early fall of 2004, not in 2005 as stated above.

And it will probably come as no surprise to readers of post 100 that the cathedral in Sioux Falls also hosts a special service for the LGBT crowd, even though it’s not an Episcopal service.  It’s just a way that the cathedral extends its open hospitality to “everyone.”

Thank God for the faithful witness of Fr. Timothy Fountain there in Sioux Falls (at Church of the Good Shepherd).

David Handy+

The funny thing is, I thought I was posting on another thread. I have no idea how I got here. After I posted it, I was puzzeled why it did not post. Meanwhile, someone had already posted the idea on the thread I thought I was posting on. I felt a bit like I was in the Twilight Zone!  Anyway, thank you for your story. Perhaps, that is what I really was suppose to read.

I’m not sure if it’s still true, but when now-Bishop Chane was Dean of the Cathedral Church of St. Pail in San Diego, ‘open communion’ was the norm (although at least of of his Honorary Canons argued long and hard against it).

And he did so with all the best of intentions—‘who was he to turn anyone away from God’s Table?’.  The problem was that his good intentions (and he truly is a good, kind, and well-meaning man) didn’t make up for his complete lack of comprehension of Eucharistic theology.