Evidence Of More Litigation Demands By the PB?

“Mein Kampf”—ouch! Jackie, would you fill out your concluding sentence a little?

Signed: Gator of the black helicopters (snap, snap)

Quoth +Peter Lee:  “There’s a new sheriff in town.”

It amazes me that the Presiding Bishop and her followers can scream about social justice and peace but exhibiting those qualities within the church is anathema to them.

Social Justice—I suppose they think social justice is what they are doing within the church and reasserter congregations are clearly unjust. Therefore, it is only social justice to stamp out the injustice of the reasserter churches.

Peace—And I have seen many bumper stickers and have heard as well “No peace without justice”. So that could mean in a church context, no peace without stamping out the reasserters.

When they start talking about “economic justice”, guess what they mean.

Sure, Gator.  815 has evidently taken the approach that the only right answers are the ones that come from 815.  We have the example of what happened in the Diocese of Rio Grande when the presiding bishop attempted to block Bishop Steenson from allowing a break away congregation to purchase their property not to mention what happened with Bishop Lee in Virginia. Remember - if these bishops were attempting to turn over the property to a gentleman’s club or for a new bar - no problem.  Once again we are reminded that all are equal but ONLY if and when 815 says they are equal.  Their brand of justice seems to require the demise of any who disagree or oppose their agenda. 
Sure reminds me of the ideals of a little man with a mustache - but then maybe that’s just me.

You also have to wonder whether 815 is willing to sacrifice whole dioceses in the service of its national agenda.  I am sure 815 understands where TEC has viable long term prospects, and where it doesn’t.  If a given diocese is not going to survive another 20 years anyways, then there is little cost to 815 in sacrificing the interest of that diocese to make a larger legal point.  Perhaps they are using the vulnerable hinterlands to protect the liberal core.  It would be ruthless, but I wouldn’t put it past them.

carl

“It amazes me that the Presiding Bishop and her followers can scream about social justice and peace but exhibiting those qualities within the church is anathema to them.”

Let’s just say that 815 is consistently inconsistent on everything, except for its hellbent refusal to do anything remotely faithful or orthodox.

FYI: http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/04/05/news-release-from-the-diocese-of-bc/.

Much easier to “secure the property with a change of locks and the installation of a monitored alarm system” than litigate, don’t you think?

And let us not forget the use of the legal system by Hitler to accomplish the goals of tyranny.

Bill C:

I thought that being facetious would actually help to reinforce that Jackie’s Mein Kampf observation isn’t that far off the mark.  As Jonah Goldberg has recently made all too clear in his book Liberal Fascism ,  the Progressive Movement of our time (and in TEC/usa we have an extension of that movement among the feminisers, modernists, post-modernists, and pansexualists) is fully prepared to introduce any number of fascist public policies.  The true believers within the movement who also happen to be part of the left-liberal episcopoprogressivist elite demonstrate fascist tendencies whenever they are confident that they can wield power without suffering any short-term political setbacks.  The church that they serve is something very different than the mystical Body of Christ.

A prayer for mercy for us all.

I think the Mein Kampf reference is a bit over the top, but surely they have Gramsci and Machiavelli laying about.

C’mon everbody, just relax.  It’s just politics.  It’s nothing personal.

“C’mon everbody, just relax.  It’s just politics.  It’s nothing personal.”

Maybe Mein Kampf is over the top (although one does hear comments from some our worthy opponents who are truly unworthy) but she and others of her ilk do wield an iron fist over ECUSA.  Not one velvet glove in sight.

FYI:  http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/04/05/news-release-from-the-diocese-of-bc/

Much easier to “secure the property with a change of locks and the installation of a monitored alarm system” than litigate, don’t you think?

#10, indeed nothing personal. 815 is merely willing to inflict collateral damage in order to engage, pursue and enforce their leftist agenda.

I’ll try once again to alert everyone to the fact that a Mein Kampf reference is quite appropriate.  There was a movement within the Lutheran Church in Germany in the early part of the 20th Century called “Positive Christianity”.  It bears a striking similarity to what I’ve heard referred to recently as “Progressive Christianity”.  The Lutheran Church in Germany had within its ranks, its equivalent to our modern political Liberal Christian Left.  This element had embraced the socialist movement and saw the state as a proper extension of their gospel of social justice.  Please, everyone, Google “positive christianity” and be scared.

I’m not saying or even implying that the current leadership in TEC are National Socialists in disguise. What I’m trying to warn people about is that what there are doing to the Church is exactly what one first needs to do in order to turn a people’s faith into a political tool, to be used by others for their own political ends.

Bill C:

I thought that being facetious would actually help to reinforce that Jackie’s Mein Kampf observation isn’t that far off the mark.  As Jonah Goldberg has recently made all too clear in his book Liberal Fascism ,  the Progressive Movement of our time (and in TEC/usa we have an extension of that movement among the feminisers, modernists, post-modernists, and pansexualists) is fully prepared to introduce any number of fascist public policies.  The true believers within the movement who also happen to be part of the left-liberal episcopoprogressivist elite demonstrate fascist tendencies whenever they are confident that they can wield power without suffering any short-term political setbacks.  The church that they serve is something very different than the mystical Body of Christ.

The word has gone out:  STEP OUT OF LINE, AND WE’LL SQUASH YOU LIKE A BUG!

Going Home, lest you have any doubts:  The Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin will NOT back down….trust me!

I live in Cleveland and had thought this was settled YEARS ago. Does this mean that ANY agreement that has been reached in the past is now open for litigation? Talk about being two faced! I also love the “fascist” liberal comments. How can they be fascists? They are the light of the world, just ask them!

As I wrote elsewhere, re: the new policy—

Burn all the fields.
Cut down all the olive trees.
Stop up all the wells.
Take no prisoners.
Wage reconciliation relentlessly.

The Rabbit.

The word is down to all Dioceses.  No compromise. Of the Dioceses not in open rebellion, only three have had the integrity and guts to buck the orders, and it is unclear whether they will do so indefinately.

I am glad I don’t have to worry about supporting this regime.

Funny.  I just did a lecture on Mein Kampf today and the rise of Hitler for my Saturday part-timers.  I also showed Triumph of the Will.  We discussed the co-opting of historical, cultural, and religious themes in order to dazzle the population, lend legitimacy to a corrupt and evil regime, and to place Hitler as the sole object of adoration and worship.  They even had the co-opted bishop of the German Lutheran church at the closing meeting of the 6th Party Congress.  Substitute the convenient and well-dressed lies for the truth.  Anyone notice the similarities?  Some will say this is a stretch, and I grant you, you have a point.  But I also see the similarities in the seduction of the unsuspecting and the total and complete elimination of all opposition.

Prayers for my CANA family in Ohio!  K.

When asked whether Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori had encouraged Bishop Hollingsworth to bring suit against the five congregations…

I can’t even begin to imagine such a horrible thing about Frank Griswold much less the lovely and charming Katherine!  I’d go into more detail but I must run off to do my charity work.  I deliver Kool-Aid to to needy Episcopalians.  In keeping with the inclusive spirit of TEC, we define needy persons as anybody thirsty!

Those who think the comparison is so very far-fetched should study the Lutheran Church under the Nazis—nearly entirely appropriated, hollowed out, but made to “look good” by violent secular forces.  Read Dietrich Bonhoeffer on the church in his time, and see why it was so bad that he, and a few like him, actually died for their dissent to the whole evil mechanism.  But observe how it all started.

Actually, Mein Kampf isn’t such a good example. After all, it’s written from a rather slanted viewpoint.

Still, the way in which A.H. came to power after spending time in jail (and writing Mein Kampf) after the beer hall putsch is worth anyone’s study, at least as a negative example. The putsch was an attempted coup d’etat. He got back into government perfectly legally (after overcoming the initial impediment of not being a German citizen), and then started gathering power. By the time he became Chancellor, the choo-choo was heading down the track under full steam. The rest, shall we say, is history.

The leadership of TEC is using similar tactics. A.H. used the German legal system to gain power “legitimately”, or at least legally.

THe operant term is “Gleichschaltung”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung

———-
On a lighter note, perhaps, the following quotes come to mind:

(The Wicked +Witch): Going so soon? I wouldn’t hear of it. Why my little party’s just beginning…Just try and stay out of my way. Just try! I’ll get you, my pretty and your little dog too!” (Ralph cackles on the solemn tone.)

(Auntie Em): Almira Gulch! Just because you own half the town doesn’t mean that you have the power to run the rest of us. For twenty-three years I’ve been dying to tell you what I thought of you! And now… well, being a Christian woman, I can’t say it!

(Cowardly Lion): Courage! What makes a king out of a slave? Courage!

An independent court stated the magnamity of the division within Anglicanism. Jackie’s analysis is correct.

The choices, IMO: either fight tooth and nail in a guerilla war against the progressives, prepare for life as a citizen in vichey TEC, wait compliantly for all conservatives to be isolated until they die or join with free Anglicans under orthodox bishops in a mission to convert North America, Great Britan end Europe to a transforming Christian orthodoxy. Sadly, militant liberalism has won TEC. Militant Islam isn’t far behind, the parallel to the communism of the 30’s, the organized opposition to the facists.

I would like to apologize to Fascists everywhere for the disgraceful comparison that is being made between Fascists and Episcopalians on this comment thread.  It is unfair and slanderous to claim that the vicious and vindictive behavior of Episcopalians in any way reflects the character of normal everyday Fascists.  As a cradle Episcopalian, I hang my head in shame on behalf of everybody here.

Mad Potter, I agree with you. Clergy driven, and clergy who should have left the church a long time ago. Including the PB and the others who have taken our church down a road of their own devising.

Hate say “I told ya so,” but I told ya so.  So my timing was a little off, but when +Mark was elected, I said on T19 that it wouldn’t be long.  More recently, I said that the breakaway parishes appreciated his restraint.  The Chancellor must have been typing the court papers at about the same time.

Mein Kampf is appropriate. The National Socialists were socialists.  Not Communists, but the difference was in focus, not aims or tactics. They respected property rights as long as you used the property their way. If not, they lowered the hammer on your head and replaced you. Sound like anyone we know? 815 has donned the jackboots and ordered its underlings to follow suit. No one is safe—for long. If your Bishop is at all orthodox, you have a year or so. If not, less.

Pray. Pray hard. Pray that Lambeth will recognize the lifeboats.

Oh, Heavenly Father,
Our Lord and our protector;
Thy church has been taken by the vandals.
Gird us in the armor of Thy truth.
Lend to us the sword of Thy Eternal Word.

Most Holy Ghost;
Thy alters have been usurped for the spread of corruption.
Thy Holy Name has been stolen to spread lies.
Watch over us and teach us to redeem the alters.

Jesus Christ, only son of God;
Thou didst teach us to love and pray for our enemies,
open my heart to follow your example.
Lead us in the retaking of Thy Holy Church.
Forgive us our shortcomings in the past,
and forgive and reclaim those who corrupt Thy word.

Have mercy on us, Most Worthy God.

Amen

Despicable, just despicable. But expected, notwithstanding the charity we’ve come to expect from Our Fearless Leader.

Mad Potter:  Interesting.  So you are suggesting that the leadership couldn’t negotiate?  Are you seriously suggesting that the ONLY way to resolve disputes in America today is litigation?!?!?  With imaginations like that, Mad Potter, it is no surprise at the steep decline and demise of TEC.

One other thing, Mad Potter, I wonder what the 90+% of the memberships of Truro, Falls Church, etc. think about their suddenly becoming priested by you.

I can say this - I have heard from a very reliable source who asked a moderate-liberal bishop about whether the PB was pressuring him to start litigation, that the answer was “no, I am not being pressured, but the PB has said that 815 would commence legal action against me if I did not sue”.  I am still not sure how a threat to commence legal action unless this bishop started litigating is not “pressure.”

Here’s the deal, MP.  Unless you can point to something in the Bible or the prayer book that definitively indicates that being able to keep buildings built and paid for by devout and perfectly orthodox Christians is a point of <strike>universalist</strike> Episcopal doctrine, I will continue to believe that the EO’s lawsuits are nothing more than pseudo-legal theft.

Hi all,

The congregation and I are having to leave our building on June 1. We agreed to this because we are unwilling to besmirch the name of Christ through public litigation or to spend the inordinate sums of money it would cost to try the case. However, like Paul, we are called to rejoice in our sufferings. I would ask that you join with me in being gracious to those who persecute us. The cause of Christ is not advanced by name calling and vitriol regardless of how correct it may or may not be.

Fr. Ron Baird+

Mad Potter:

Re:  Being Clergy Driven

Survey says, “WRONG!”  My church left (thanks be to God) the General Convention Church (TEC) w/o one clergy amongst us.  We read the Bible - and like my son said at the time, didn’t appreciate “The Episcopal Church tearing parts of it out”.

So, reality is Intelligent people can realize without being clergy when heresy is going on… doesn’t matter if they wear a collar or not.

Mad Potter,

Thank you for your compliment. I believe you are overstating clergy influence. The laity are not stupid. Given the information they can make up their own mind. In my case, I urged patience and caution for over 4 years before we began to discuss disaffiliation. That occurred when I could no longer offer any reason to the leadership of the parish to believe that anything was going to change. There have also been instances where congregations have decided to disaffiliate and the clergy have chosen not to go with them. I am sure that your claim happens sometimes. I am also certain that there are instances that it has not.

Fr. Ron Baird+

My old parish, Good Shepherd in San Angelo, TX, left its rector behind when they voted to disaffiliate with dioNWTX and TEC.  The lay leadership wanted to leave, the rector didn’t.

And yes, even as Fr. Ron admonishes, every one of the current leaders in TEC, and the laity are bound up in my prayers. Because God has declared that He values every blessed soul of them, so I must bear them up, trusting the Hound of Heaven to chase them down and drawn them to Himself. And love them as He loves them, no matter how much pain they cause me, no matter how hateful, misguided and acrimonious their behavior.

I love you, Sasha. I agree with you. And you put so much emotion into it, it makes me laugh. I guess it does sound a little absurd, but, it is true! So, I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at both of us. (But we are right!)

MP - You need to get a life and face reality.

by congregations I mean the remnant loyal to ECUSA that has been evicted by CANA..

EmilyH drivel from DioVa thread seems better suited for this thread here… Brown shirts for all of them.
Intercessor

Brothers and Sisters, especially you MP, never, NEVER underestimate the laity in a parish. What you are calling Episcopal Churches will be, without Divine intervention, just more real estate listings in the commercial rags. And all the funds derived will simply go to ensure the pensions of those who successfully dismantled the Episcopal Church from within. This is a slippery slope, the exercise of polity in this manner. It is a death by a thousand cuts. It is because this current leadership has been so successful at this plan that church membership dwindles (MP - that would be those foolish laity you so lightly disregard above), asa falls off, and giving ceases. You cannot drive a living vibrant parish with the tired and short-pensioned elderly population that is more and more representative of the Episcopal population profile. Look at the scramble to reinforce giving. Watch as church building after church building goes up for sale. Parishes are consolidated. The PB has the temerity to state that it is not important to have numbers as long as we are intellectually superior to those who do have numbers. It is those numbers that support and provide the funding for the continuance of TEC (those darned laity again MP). The sheer denial is breathe-taking in its refusal to accept that this plan, this lofty humanist experiment is a shambles and a failure. Except for those few, the core who will retire in a decade or two resting in their pensions, smug and sure in the rightness of their goals, while sitting in the midst of the ruins of the Episcopal church. There will be no revival with the aridity of the MDGs as the driver. There will be no burgeoning masses gathered to embrace the deepest truths of a Clown Eucharist. Meanwhile those completely dispensable laity, will have gone out and sought wherever Christ is to be found, and there worship Him in spirit and in truth. In non-denominational churches, in eastern and western orthodoxy, where they will listen and carefully weigh the words of the priests, the pastors and leaders and obediently serve God.

KAY4 and Paula, In order to appreciate the historical impact of what is happening to TEC and the other mainline Protestant denominations these days, you need to consider where this all leads to, a generation or two into the future.  The National Socialists didn’t just come to power one day and then the next day take over the Lutheran Church.  The rise of the Nazi regime was several generations in the making, each generation of the German people getting used to, and expecting more, state control of their lives than the last generation.  And likewise, the co-opting of the Lutheran Church was several generations in the making.  It was only able to happen because the Church had already, a generation or two earlier, lost its way.  It is my humble guess that, theologically, TEC is where the Lutheran Church in Germany was around 1920 or so.  Of course, if you had gone back to the 1920’s and tried to explain to those “Progressive” Pastors and Bishops of the Lutheran Church that the final outcome of their gospel-of-social-justice-thinking would be the horrors of the Nazi regime, they would have driven you out of the Church while calling you all sorts of vile names.  But then an oak tree doesn’t look anything like an acorn, but an acorn is where oak trees come from.  We should always be vigilant as to the things we let into our lives, because what something eventually grows into, often isn’t anything like what it seemed to be at the start.

Mad Potter, the Episcopal Church has *ceased* to be the Episcopal Church, constituent member of the Anglican Communion.  It is not the church for which our ancestors labored and to which they left their hard-earned fortunes.  Nobody would be quicker to repudiate this TEC than the real Episcopalians who built the churches.

Once again, I must state what I have often stated before.  Church property does not “belong” to the majority of a parish, and it does not “belong” to TEC.  It belongs to the Lord. 

Am I saying, “Don’t fight for the parish property, under any circumstances”  ?

Nope.

Am I saying, “Always fight for the parish property, no matter what the circumstances” ?

Nope. 

I’m saying that the property is the Lord’s.  If an orthodox congregation is forced out of a parish building then, the building is not being stolen by them.  You cannot loose what was never yours to begin with. 

As for the generations of our forebears who sacrificed to build those churches, theirs was a sacrifice to the Lord.  In my opinion, the best kind of sacrifice is the one that is consumed.  Listen:

The late poet of Calvin College, Sietze Buning, wrote a marvellous poem about that. It is called “The Sea of Forgetfulness: Lake Michigan.” The poem is a story of a minister and an elder visiting a devout old member of the congregation in a retirement home. His name is Willem. In the course of the conversation, Willem says,

“About the budget.
I pay, sure, but I envy them Israelites.
Priests ate a little of them unblemished lambs,
but the rest got burned up, useless to everybody but God.
All my budget money is an investment.
My Nelly was in our hospital and I’m in our Home.
All five children went to our Christian schools, four to our college.
Pete got a job with the mission board because he knows languages.
Bert took up business. Now he’s on synod’s budget committee.
Lenore teaches philosophy at our college.
Jake is a preacher.
Now their children are in college, and guess what? They all want jobs like it.
I try to give my money to God, but none of it seems to get through.
Some year our churches ought to collect our money as usual,
put all the money on a boat in Muskegon Harbor,
set out for the middle of the lake,
and while Synod sings a psalm and prays on a boat nearby,
sink the boat with the money on it
right to the bottom of Lake Michigan.”

(The Sea of Forgetfulness: Lake Michigan (For Ed Ericson);

Link

“Pray. Pray hard. Pray that Lambeth will recognize the lifeboats.” —Jeff in Ohio

This is the most moving prayer I have seen recently about the situation of us refugees from the American Episcopal Church.  Yes, we have wished we could have found justice and vindication and comfort from Canterbury.  I also pray that it could still happen.  We are the orthodox Anglicans who have loved the Anglican Communion most dearly while progressives have generally not even known what the term meant.  Nothing could be more ironic than the present invitation list to Lambeth, with its omission of the “missionary” bishops who are manning the “lifeboats” and its inclusion of those who have wrecked the ship.  Of course, our true vindication and comfort are from the Lord Jesus, and this is greater than any Lambeth invitation.

But I will repeat from the heart: “Pray. Pray hard. Pray that Lambeth will recognize the lifeboats.”

Interesting take, Moot. Of course, there is also a strategic angle to the battle between the leadership of TEC and the Bible believers whom they seek to purge from their midst.
We read in 2 Chron. 32:1-6 : “After all that Hezekiah had so faithfully done, Sennacherib king of Assyria came and invaded Judah. He laid siege to the fortified cities, thinking to conquer them for himself. When Hezekiah saw that Sennacherib had come and that he intended to make war on Jerusalem, he consulted with his officials and military staff about blocking off the water from the springs outside the city, and they helped him. A large force of men assembled, and they blocked all the springs and the stream that flowed through the land. “Why should the kings of Assyria come and find plenty of water?”
The obvious thrust of this strategy, of course, would be that laying siege to Jerusalem by the Assyrians would be difficult if a large army with a substantial cavalry could not find water to sustain itself.
When the Soviets fled eastward from the oncoming Nazi army, they not only dismantled the factories that were in the path of the Nazi forces to be rebuilt later, but also burned crops and any kind of sustenance behind them so the Nazis could not utilize them.
Simerlarly, in TEC’s war on Christians, it will be a blow to TEC if they cannot seize valuable buildings and properties which could then later be sold to fund their nefarious activities.

SF staff, there is something odd going on with the comments.  Reading this thread after everyone has gone to bed, I see posts out of order chronologically, with answers and comments preceding the ones they refer to.

Simerlarly, in TEC’s war on Christians, it will be a blow to TEC if they cannot seize valuable buildings and properties which could then later be sold to fund their nefarious activities.

True - and that is certainly a right response, assuming that a particular congregation has been called to fight in this manner.  OTOH, if they have been called to -not- fight, then the right response would be for them to yield the building.  In either case, the orthodox congregations can and should approach their very different callings with the attitude that the property belongs to the Lord. 

God sent Hezekiah as well as Jeremiah;  sometimes we are called to fight, sometimes we are called to yield.  The attitude required however, is the same.

Mad Potter: “An Episcopal church is an Episcopal church.”  Sounds simple MP, but there are two questions:  1) What is “Episcopal”? and 2) What is “church”?

With reference to question 1, you are clearly defining “Episcopal” as being the Church of the General Convention.  You are suggesting that TEC being a “heirarchical” church means simply that General Convention can decide everything and anything it wants.  That is a peculiar definition, MP, and one that doesn’t jibe with TEC’s claim to be a part of the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.”  Part of the problem, MP, is that the cabal that has taken control of the General Convention has stripped out the fundamentals of what it means to be a catholic and apostolic church and has substituted a fraud.  I believe that in a heirarchical “catholic” church, there are two fiduciary duties, one which depends on the other.  The central fiduciary duty is for the top leadership (i.e. General Convention) to maintain, preserve and defend the holy, catholic and apostolic faith and discipline (something it has been adjudged not to have done by the Instruments of Unity).  Only if that fiduciary duty is kept, is there a corresponding fiduciary duty of the lesser units to follow.

With regard to question 2, you are defining “church” as a physical building.  A church is the congregation - the people.  In Anglican polity, the building has always been owned and controlled by the congregation.  The heirarchical part has been connected to spiritual leadership.  This differs from the RC Church, where the Dioceses hold the titles to the property.  Not in TEC - ever wonder why?

Regarding your absurd claim that this is all clergy driven - I realize that you will never let the facts get in the way of what you believe, but almost every clergy person I know who is conservative (whether in TEC or departed) is in their place BECAUSE of what the laity of their parish has wanted.

Now as to your foolish claim that litigation is the only way forward.  Bishop Peter Lee and the Virginia churches were on the verge of coming to a mutually agreed upon resolution to their property issues.  An agreement had been previously reached in a friendly, both-sides-win sort of way with John Guernsey’s church.  Then 815 stepped in.  Was it the property KJS was concerned with?  Apparently not - she wouldn’t care if the departing congregations had kept the properties if they had converted to Hinduism or Islam.  So it wasn’t that an “Episcopal church is an Episcopal church.”  No, KJS was determined to make things difficult because of the choice the laity had made.  And now, MP, the Anglican parishes have won an initial, but major, court victory.  How is this strategy better for the TEC Diocese of Virginia?

Let’s see:
Option 1 - friendly, mutual agreement in which there is the possibility for future reconciliation, terms agreeable to both parties, and huge savings on lawyers’ bills; or
Option 2 - hostile, bitter litigation in which the Diocese of Virginia puts its financial future at serious risk, with the very real possibility (probability?) that it will lose all the properties.

Ah yes, you’ve got to love the sharp mind of the Presiding Bishop.  Keep on believing MP!

Jackie and others, while I share your disgust with the tactics being used by TEC’s leadership, I respectfully submit that the Nazi reference is over the top.  It is true that Jefferts Schori, as did Griswold, frequently considers herself called to make political statements.  However, there’s no evidence that I see that TEC’s “advocacy” is more effective than would be a gnat biting a legislator on the hand.

If we begin to see TEC supporting the rise of a personality-cult leader with expanded powers, then the Nazi allusion might make some sense.  Our opposition in the Church so often unreasonably calls conservatives “Nazis” that I am very hesitant about the use of the term unless it actually applies.

This thread cries out for the commenatrix.

Don’t underestimate the laity, they may be trapped in unfriendly territory but they will outlast those who would defeat them because they have the Word of God to sustain them in the face of the enemy. Pray for a revival of faith in our church.

A former rector at our parish once described the role of the priest as the “servant of the servants of God.”  The bishop was then the “servant of the servants of the servants of God.”  If this is truly a hierarchical church, then the PB ought to be the “servant of the servants of the servants of the servants of God.”  It might be good for her to think of herself this way once in a while, rather than as the chief litigator.

A most passionate comment thread.  Interesting that out that of the 77 comments, 7 contain direct references to prayer.

As if there were any doubt, Mad Potter does NOT speak for everyone in Western Louisiana. I am not clergy, but I would highly advise it is time (past time) for the Diocese of Western Louisiana to pack its bags and leave TEC. I’ve said as much on my blog (http://www.bobbyjacksonkennedy.blogspot.com). The thing is this Mad Potter, it’s one thing to say that if we want to leave, then go ahead. It’s another thing to realize that it is not we who WANT to leave. We have no place to STAY in the progressive church. We (orthodox) are being systematically destroyed in the church by progressives in powerful places. It will sooner or later come to Western Louisiana. Oh, and remember, the progressive gospel is the new one. Since when was Jesus democratic? Last I heard he was a King. It seems that it is the progressives who are in open rebellion against him. When we orthodox resist, we are told we can/should leave, as if we are in the minority. We may be locally, or in present circumstances. We are not historically, or globally. I think it it cheap to suggest that the orthodox should leave, as if we had not rights. Give me a break! What the progressive leadership of the church is doing is arrogant, non-Christian, and deserves to be resisted, and condemned at every junction.

#78 is a response to #79! how did that happen?

It’s happened to me as well, MP.  EmilyH mentioned it yesterday also.  In my case, the time tag of the post seemed to be set back by one hour - making it appear I made the post an hour before I actually did.

carl

The liberal faction of the church worked very hard to take over the Episcopal Church.  The submersion into the abyss came slowly and when a small weak voice would finally speak up, it was shushed with words of tolerance and social justice or finally drummed out the door.  All too many of us were comfortable in our sleep thinking that surely things not of God could not take over a Church of God.  We were wrong.  And as the people began to awaken, in true Episcopalian fashion, they slipped out the door quietly and sought safety at at a church not afraid to boldly speak The Word.  The Church is a gift to His people and when the people are not willing to stand for Christ - well the result is very much what you see in The Episcopal Church today.  Do I think it is a lost cause?  No, I do not - just as Germany was able to be reformed.  I see many similarities in how Germany fell under the spell of Hitler to the Episcopal Church falling under the spell of liberalism, humanism and secularism.  The reference to Nazi Germany was intended to reference the tactics.  # 27 is exactly right in his reference to the specifics of <a href = “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung”> Gleichschaltung. </a>  I was referring in particular to was Hitler’s conviction during his prison term that he needed to convert from violence to making the law do the work for him.  I see much similarity in the use of the almighty constitution and canons (where applicable to the orthodox only of course).  One has only to look at England and see what is happening - or California.  If you look there and are worried about what you see - it’s time to become active.  Become a flag-planter or a worker or one of those quiet voices of reason in the midst of chaos.  I know that in the end God will win this battle - one way or the other.  We must prepare ourselves that He may choose to lead us to reform or reduce the property and works of the Episcopal Church to mere ashes.  All we can do is listen to what He is calling each of us to do.  For as each of us knows that as long as His will is done, the perfect solution has been found.
To that end, I ask that we refrain from further comment that demonizes our opponents.  I disagree with them more than I ever thought possible but I recognize them as children of God.

Mad Potter. I am not sure what happened with the comments either. I thought I had noticed this on another comment thread to, but just figured I was seeing thing wrongly. Guess I’m not.

“I realize that you will never let the facts get in the way of what you believe, but almost every clergy person I know who is conservative (whether in TEC or departed) is in their place BECAUSE of what the laity of their parish has wanted”.

Yeah, I’ll vouch for this.  Our excellent orthodox rector had to execute an 1800-mile move and leave wonderful health care for his kids because his original parish decided it wouldn’t stand up for him or anything else.  It really doesn’t like its overwhelmingly liberal bishop, but has long since decided to do nothing about it.  I find it revolting that Jesus hung on the Cross for these people, but yet for Him, they’ll do nothing. 

Most progressives I know that have left orthodox parishes were never forced to—they leave because they don’t like the fact that the people who surround them actually take the Scriptures and the doctrines of Christianity seriously.

Sasha, I believe every man, woman and child comes into this world loved by God.  I do agree that it is sometimes an unrequited love but that does not change God’s love for them.  And regardless of where they stand on the issues, we are called to love them.  Who knows but through our love and prayers another may be saved?

Lost comments appearing suddenly at a later time is the result of something called “slave lag”. This system running this blog uses multiple database servers. All “writes” go to a master database. Then, all changes to the master are replicated to multiple “slaves”. Whenever you read a post and its comments the “reads” come from the slaves.

Slave lag occurs when the master database is heavily loaded and replication to the slaves lags (hence the name).

Misordered comments happen when something breaks replication (such as the master database crashing or temporarily not responding); typically this causes a “write” to be directed to a slave which then becomes the master. Hilarity ensues - it’s the blog equivalent of “Who’s on first?”.

Doug