Judge to Dio BC: Let them back in…now!

BettyLee Payne,

I take your point. 

And I guess it’s okay to be shocked—but couldn’t we all please prepare for such behavior in the future?  The church should not have been left unguarded.  The locks—and computer security, and hosts of other matters—should have been attended to long, long, long ago.

Right now there are literally scores of churches engaged in “peaceful negotiations” with bishops.

Please. 

I beg on my hands and knees for conservative Anglicans to please understand and grasp what they are up against and prepare for it.

Yes, Sarah, experience over the last four plus years tells us that there should be no surprise that this would happen.  I believe Bishop Sauls of Lexington was the first to set the tone for this kind of behavior when he seized the property and assets of St. John’s Versailles, KY in late 2003/ early 2004.  The fact that he has been a key advisor to the TEC House of Bishops and especially in the “take no prisoners” regime of the person leading the Episcopal church and her chief legal advisor is not a coincidence.  That being said, it is still a shock when people wearing the robes of the Church of Jesus Christ conduct themselves in such a manner.  I do not think faithful people will ever get over the shock of the reality of the attitudes and actions of those currently in power in TEC.  Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy.  God has blessed the faithful people of St. Mary of the Incarnation today.  Praise and thanks be to the Lord.

Abp Rowan to Bp Howe in October:

The organ of union with the wider Church is the Bishop and the Diocese rather than the Provincial structure as such.

Lambeth press office clarifies:

The diocese is more than a ‘local branch’ of a national organisation.

jamesw said on yesterday’s ‘More Litigation Demands’ thread

I have heard from a very reliable source who asked a moderate-liberal bishop about whether the PB was pressuring him to start litigation, that the answer was “no, I am not being pressured, but the PB has said that 815 would commence legal action against me if I did not sue”.  I am still not sure how a threat to commence legal action unless this bishop started litigating is not “pressure.”

I think we’re witnessing a tug of war between PB Schori and Abp Williams.  It would be interesting to know if Bp Cowan had been pressured by the primate of Canada.

A thing that never ceases to shock—shock but by now not amaze, as pain from a chronic deadly disease may shock but not amaze—is the way in which so many revisionists take up tactics which are duplicitous and sneaky.  Not only do we have the bishop sneaking in and changing locks and putting in a security system,

At 7pm Friday, April 4, a St Mary parishioner discovered Bishop James Cowan of the Diocese of British Columbia supervising the changing of the locks and installation of a security system at the St Mary church building

not only do we have him doing so late and without warning before a Sunday service, so that the parishioners would have no place to worship

No notice was given to the clergy or approximately 185 parishioners who were displaced from the building they worship in

, but further, this is done by a bishop who, apparently, is willing to mislead those he contends with to enable this stealth maneuver.

The parish and the diocese had been engaged in a discussion regarding an amicable process to address the property issues with the assistance of Archbishop Terry Buckle. The congregation was hopeful these discussions would avoid the need for court proceedings, so the diocese’s actions came as a complete surprise.

In short, Ingham’s obsessions with his cause, with winning, and with punishing faithful Christians who differ from his convictions, causes him—like that of so many of his party—to lose hold of any element of even secular morality (let alone Christian charity, or a generous reconciling approach.  Here of course this extends to dishonesty—something we constantly see from KJS and 815—but it goes further:  it extends to lack of any sense of shame that would allow a normal person to act in a way that does not undercut normal self-respect. 

These judgments on my part are, in my view, quite independent of any position one might hold in the core issues at stake here—not only as regards Biblical faith and Christian confession, let alone sexual morality, but also as regards property issues.  Even if I assumed that Ingham is correct about his claim to the property, correct about his views on the morality of family, marriage, and sex, and even if I assumed that he acts consistently with (or, implausibly in accord with, or impelled by) his obligations as one sworn to uphold the faith of the church in stating that he finds buddhism more attractive than christianity—even assuming all that, I’d find (as one raised in a very ethical and honest atheist household) that his conduct is sneaky, duplicitous, and lacking in self respect. 

Paul, at II Cor 3:18-4:2, emphasizing how God is transforming our characters, says

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.  Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart.  We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. (RSV)

Paul emphasizes how straitforward, and indeed loving and godly behavior—something that the Bible commends, throughout, even toward opponents—both commends the gospel, and is the fruit of God’s transforming our characters as we set our sights upon Christ, and upon God.  Alas that Bishops must sneak about changing locks to keep worshippers from worshipping while purporting to be in friendly dialogue with them.  Yet at some point God allows people to be what they choose to be, and to change into the likeness of those whose ways they seek.  May God have mercy upon them.

What also is shocking is the absence from the revisionist side of people who will speak out against such underhanded conduct by those who are standard-bearers for their side.  Where are the honest-hearted and godly intentioned revisionists who will state that Ingham ,  trying to inhibit Packer and change locks, or Schorri, ignoring the canons as well as charity to persecute 80yo Bishops, behave disgracefully, and dishonor their own cause?

Testing again.

Testing.

Testing 3.

Greg, is all of that testing to see if you can make the posts post in the order they arrived ?  Is the issue different date stamps from different parts of the country?  Or even from computers with mistaken clocks?    I was just about to ask you if you could fix it, as I had read Sarah’s first post addressed to Betty Payne with much confusion. 
Susan Peterson

Sarah,

After reading your comment, I was Googling to research the quote “the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops” and came across this web page from a Roman Catholic group.  Although it specifically addresses the problem of pedophile priests, I think it says a lot about your comment regarding the seeming complacency of many faithful Episcopalians.

“But to hear parishioners or clergy who have been following the news for four years [on blogs and elsewhere] articulate surprise when bishops break negotiations, or lie, or try to take over parish property while engaged in “peaceful negotiations” . . . well, it tells me that lessons aren’t being learned”.

Yup, you are right, Sarah.  If you understand the phenom of “lessons aren’t being learned”, PLEASE explain it to me.  I am amazed at the number of people, especially in non-Network dioceses, who just want to ignore it or act like it’s all not happening.  With respect, I understand the 90-year-olds who don’t want to get involved, just want to go to church on Sunday, and eventually end up in the Memorial Garden.  No shock when liberals don’t care about the Unitarian direction of the National Church, but when I note the boatload of silent conservatives just sitting around hardly caring what their children and grandchildren are taught; well, then, you’ve got me…

When I was a little kid and things just would not compute, my mother or father would say to me, “Hey, do you need a brick to fall on your head”? 

I’d remind many that sloth is a deadly sin, and also that he/she who stands for nothing will fall for anything.  Not a good place to be…

God help us all…

In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king’s men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.
2 Samuel 11:1

  King David fought his whole life—protecting his flock, avoiding King Saul, defending the borders of Israel.  The only time he didn’t fight was the one time he got into trouble with Bathsheba. 
In his message to the seven churches in Revelation, Jesus called us to be overcomers.  A passive spirit will not overcome.

eulogos,

Yes, we’ve had some timestamp issues lately and I’m trying to get to the bottom of it.

Bishops Behaving Badly - Sounds like the sequel to a Girls Gone Wild Video.

Reading the item Jill (#2) quoted from a “moderate”  bishop:

  “No, I am not being pressured, but the PB has said that 815 would commence legal action against me if I did not sue”.

got me thinking.

Just exactly how much courage would it take for a “good” bishop (who knows better), to stand up to 815.  Think about it—what would happen?  Yes, he might well get sued by 815.  But he would instantly become a hero to just about everyone in his diocese who would see him as a Godly leader, trying to do the “right thing” by his flock.  And just what would 815 do under the meanest interpretation of Schoria law?  Inhibit him?  Bring him to trial?  For what?

If just one bishop, who wants for his own reasons to remain in TEC, would do this, it could bring KJS and DBB out into the open.  This might allow the “moderates” in the pews to see them for what they are.  I am certain that there are many, many good folks who still are in TEC churches in the Diocese of Virginia who lost respect for +Lee when he quit the negotiations and gave in to KJS’ demands to bring suit.  And what did +Lee have to lose?  What risk did he have in standing up tall?

I know I’m dreaming, but can’t just one of you “moderate” bishops act with a tiny bit of courage and play the shepherd role—just for once?

If the ABC wanted to help the dissident North America parishes, he could have simply invited their new Bishops.  He is solidly with the PB.

For Scruff (#4), you’re confusing the bishops.
Michael Ingham is Bishop of New Westminster, which is Vancouver, BC with surrounding municipalities. Jim Cowan is Bishop of British Columbia, which consists of Vancouver Island and the surrounding Gulf Islands. The dioceses are adjoining (separated by the Gulf of Georgia) but different.
Your arguments were speaking to Ingham’s stated beliefs, not Cowan’s.

Comoxpastor (#16):  Thanks so much for this correction.

To Bishops Ingham and Cowan:  my apologies, and retraction, for mixing you up and attributing the deeds of each, in various ways to the other.  I should have been more careful, and very sorry for having made this error.  Please forgive me.

To SFIF and its readers:  Again, my apologies.

That having been said, I still find the actions attributed to Cowan—as reported here (presuming the report to be correct)—(his actions, not Ingham’s, are the subject of this thread) appalling in much the way I stated above:  vicious, duplicitous, and lacking in shame or self-respect.

Sarah of course is correct:  the pattern of lies, treachery, implacable hostility, and lack of even moderately cooperative behavior is endemic in the revisionist camp; and that was my theme, in essence, as well as Sarah’s.  The failure of revisionists, or even of many whose views are orthodox, to acknowledge this, name it, and rebuke it, is indeed a kind of living with one’s head in the sand.  The root of the revisionist position, IMO, (though of course not of many individual revisionists) is profound and violent hatred of the truth, and of all who are willing to speak the truth.

This is not just something that is characteristic of those who hold such views in the Church:  it is (IMO) increasingly a threat in society, in Western societies and polities which have heretofore been democratic, to the liberty of conscience we have so long taken for granted.

Sarah - thanks for the reminder. It is a pity that at this time in the life of the Communion or TEC people need reminders, but they do! As Paul wrote, “Look after yourselves and everyone the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be like shepherds to God’s church. It is the flock that he bought with the blood of his own Son. I know that after I am gone, others will come like fierce wolves to attack you. Some of your own people will tell lies to win over the Lord’s followers. Be on your guard! Remember how day and night for three years I kept warning you with tears in my eyes.” Further, 2 John warns, “Many liars have gone out into the world. These deceitful liars are saying that Jesus Christ did not have a truly human body. But they are liars and the enemies of Christ. So be sure not to lose what we have worked for. If you do, you won’t be given your full reward. Don’t keep changing what you were taught about Christ, or else God will no longer be with you. But if you hold firmly to what you were taught, both the Father and the Son will be with you. If people won’t agree to this teaching, don’t welcome them into your home or even greet them. Greeting them is the same as taking part in their evil deeds.”

I wonder if the posting times are not local to each user? I had this happen before on a web enabled app that used Javascript and a time stamp from the local client. FYI - I am in EST.

Sarah, I think you are parsing a statement intended for the secular press from the prespective of someone who has been dealing with this kind of thing for ages.

Not everybody has been following the news for four years.

The Episcopal Church we once knew has been hijacked by ruthless persons who perhaps aren’t Christians at all, for this is not Christian behaviour we are witnessing.

Of course, bradhutt, but we all know that The Episcopal Church continues to deny every accusation made against them, don’t we?  They’ve been warned for years about the course they’ve been steering, yet they’ve continued to ignore the warnings about the rocks and shoals ahead, and as a result, they’ve gone to flank speed and plowed head on into the rocks while ignoring the lighthouse’s warnings.  They’re no longer adrift; they’re shattered on the rocks.