Thursday, September 2, 2010

Welcome to Stand Firm!

Want to advertise on Stand Firm? Click here for rates and info

Build Your Own Fake Truth

Thursday, April 10, 2008 • 8:22 am

What Colin Coward, Davis Mac-Iyalla, Susan Russell and Integrity, and the rest of CA's English and American partners are doing is charging that the Anglican Church of Nigeria, and Archbishop Peter Akinola himself, aren't just hostile to homosexuality in general, or to certain homosexuals in particular, but that they deliberately orchestrated this "attack." If the "victim" really sustained life-threatening injuries, and if he really has any credible evidence whatsoever that the Anglican Church of Nigeria and Peter Akinola had anything to do with the planning and execution of the attack, then charges should be brought against Akinola and the church immediately. Furthermore, the scope of the charges should include at the very least conspiracy, assault and battery, and attempted murder.
My Google news alerts this morning carry a piece by the BBC (which I won't link - you can find it at Google News, but do not post it here) mentioning Rowan Williams' denunciation of the farcical "attacks" I wrote about yesterday.

A player in this charade whom I linked to yesterday has posted this, and it's a train wreck of broken logic and outright falsehoods:
Considering how aggressively homohating Nigeria is, goaded on by its politically ambitious Archbishop-Primate who has advocated jailing Gay people for 14 years for the horrific crime of having lunch together, it seems right to me to give Mac-Iyalla a web forum in which to speak.

He gets to be responsible for what he says.

And yes, I’ve known him to exaggerate a time or two—but far less than Peter Akinola, the bloodsucking Archbishop of Abuja.

When Davis says that a Gay leader got beaten up at his sister’s funeral, I think he’s probably right. Greggy doesn’t seem to realize this, but Gay people really don’t have a need to make up persecution stories; they happen quite enough in normal life. It’s hard for us to imagine more of them. We have no need to invent when the examples are all around us.

Do you see how this works? Since "everybody knows" Nigeria is a homophobic country, and "everybody knows" that attacks on gays happen all the time, the inescapable conclusion is that Davis Mac-Iyalla is telling the truth, and Peter Akinola orchestrated this "attack" last month.

Let that logic sink in while we look again at the problems with the story of this "attack," which are getting more numerous and more problematic with each passing day:

1. If, as claimed in the link above, it wasn't until last week that Davis Mac-Iyalla sent out his email describing this "attack," then we're left to wonder how it is that this attention-seeking activist waited two weeks before relaying news of this event to his pals in England and America. We're told it arrived via email, and I know Nigeria is far away, but trust me: Email travels from Nigeria to America in moments. Why would Mac-Iyalla wait two weeks to report "news" of this magnitude - news so "hot" that the Archbishop of Canterbury felt compelled to condemn it?

2. Where is the physical or photographic evidence of this "attack"? The writer in the link above scoffs at the reliability of police reports from Nigeria. That seems like an easy way out of producing evidence, which is why in my post yesterday I asked about other evidence - easy to obtain, and entirely reliable:

3. Where are the photographs of this "victim" and his injuries? Are we seriously expected to believe that the "victim" of this "attack," who was supposedly left near death, took no photographs of his injuries? Are we seriously expected to believe that Davis Mac-Iyalla and his gay activist friends - who are well aware of the tremendous p.r. value of such photographs - somehow forgot or neglected to take any photographs?

4. Where are the other eyewitness accounts of this "attack"? Are we seriously expected to believe that at a funeral, presumably attended by at least dozens of people, an attack that happened, by the "victim's" own account, right outside the church door, and which was presumably accompanied by screams and cries (remember, this was a "life-threatening attack"), went unheard by every single person in the church? How can it be that at a public gathering of this size, no one else seems to have witnessed the attack, or even heard anything from the "victim"? If they did, then why did they not rush to his aid? And if there are witnesses, then where are their accounts?

5. What is going on with the description of the attacker(s)? We're told it was a "mob," but that the "attack" was carried out by a single "muscular" man. Where was the mob during the attack? Remember: We are being asked to believe that a mob of angry homophobes, come to a church to beat someone nearly to death, went completely unnoticed by a large gathering of funeral attendees inside the church.

6. Speaking of the attacker, are we seriously expected to believe that he delivered not one, but two flowery, Victorian-English soliloquies as he beat his "victim"? Let's review what Mac-Iyalla's report claims the attacker said. First:
"You notorious homosexual, you think can run away from us for your notorious group to cause more abomination in our land?’ Those who attacked me were well informed about us so I suspect an insider or one of the leaders of our Anglican church have hands in this attack.”

Second:
“We will not rest until we silence you and any who join you to pollute the land with the abominable act of homosexuality. You are perverts who go around corrupting and inducting young people into our evil society. We will kill you and it will be a favour to the country. Nigeria will not contain you or any other person that practices homosexuality.”

Let me be clear, if I haven't been already: This is not even remotely plausible.

7. Are we also seriously expected to believe that there was no one within earshot, and no one who witnessed the "attack," standing outside the church? That there were absolutely no bystanders at all?

8. Whether or not the Nigerian police are reliable, surely a "life-threatening attack" warrants taking the "victim" to a nearby hospital, or some kind of clinic. Pretty much by definition, life-threatening injuries require non-trivial medical treatment; a beating would imply bandages, sutures, splints, a cast... something. Are there no records at all of this treatment? Why is it that we haven't been given the name of the hospital or clinic to which the "victim" was taken? Where is the statement of the attending physician who sewed up the cuts, bandaged the wounds, set the cast, or even prescribed some Tylenol?

9. Witnesses, police reports, and hospital reports aside, where are the rest of the details that normally accompany reports of vicious, life-threatening attacks? For one, what is the victim's name? Why is it that the simplest, most fundamental item of information in this story hasn't been provided? All we're told was that it was a "Gay leader." Can we not at least have a name?

10. For another, in exactly what town, and at exactly what church, did this "attack" take place?

I find it impossible to believe that if this "attack" did indeed happen, three weeks later none of these details have emerged: Not a police report, not a statement from a single eyewitness, or a doctor who treated the "victim's" wounds, or a photo of his wounds, or the name of the town, or the name of church, or the time of day the "attack" allegedly happened, NOT EVEN THE NAME OF THE "VICTIM" HIMSELF.

There are reasons why in real attacks such as these, eyewitness statements are taken and available, photographs of injuries are taken, statements from attending physicians are taken, and details as to time and place are provided: To establish the plausibility of the report, and provide information that can be verified by independent sources.

What Colin Coward, Davis Mac-Iyalla, Susan Russell and Integrity, and the rest of CA's English and American partners are doing is charging that the Anglican Church of Nigeria, and Archbishop Peter Akinola himself, aren't just hostile to homosexuality in general, or to certain homosexuals in particular, but that they deliberately orchestrated this "attack." If the "victim" really sustained life-threatening injuries, and if he really has any credible evidence whatsoever that the Anglican Church of Nigeria and Peter Akinola had anything to do with the planning and execution of the attack, then charges should be brought against Akinola and the church immediately. Furthermore, the scope of the charges should include at the very least conspiracy, assault and battery, and attempted murder.

If Rowan Williams believes that Archbishop Akinola had anything at all to do with this, then dis-inviting him to Lambeth is the first step he should take. Even Rowan Williams, big-tent advocate that he is, cannot possibly agree that there is any room at the table of the Anglican Communion for an archbishop who plots and executes the physical attack and beating of anyone, gay activist or not. The next thing he should do is call for a criminal investigation of +Akinola by Nigerian authorities.

But there are reasons, of course, we have not seen the first shred of evidence that this "attack" took place at all, and that is because it almost certainly did not happen. Almost certainly, this is yet another Davis Mac-Iyalla fraud, in which Colin Coward is yet again complicit, and by which Susan Russell, Integrity, and now Rowan Williams himself have been duped.

Coward, Russell, and the rest of their English and American allies who are helping peddle this farce would be apoplectic if charges of this kind were made by a conservative churchman against a liberal archbishop and his church, and rightly so. Violence against innocent people because of their sexual attractions is abhorrent, and we should do what we can to prevent it before it happens and to punish it when it does happen, but we are not to give legitimacy to clearly absurd charges, of this serious a nature, simply because it serves our cause. There is a difference between being opportunistic, and helping perpetrate lies. "Everybody knows it's true" is not something our Worthy Opponents would ever accept from us as proof of an atrocity, and rightly so. Neither is a complete lack of photographic or documentary evidence, and rightly so.

For myself, I have dismissed Colin Coward and Davis Mac-Iyalla as frauds, and their claims as worthless. I am more concerned with Susan Russell, Terry Martin, and Rowan Williams. My charge to them is this:

You have rushed to judgement about an event the veracity of which is anything but established, and the details of which strain credulity, to say the least. You have given legitimacy to the claim that Peter Akinola and the Anglican Church of Nigeria are criminally complicit in conspiracy, assault and battery, and perhaps attempted murder. Will you call for a criminal investigation of Akinola's involvement? Will you ask Colin Coward and Davis Mac-Iyalla to produce evidence of the "attack"?

If you do the former, then I for one will at least be satisfied that you sincerely believe +Akinola to be complicit, that you're prepared to put your money where your mouths are. If you do the latter, and if we indeed see some credible evidence for the "attack," then I for one will at least be satisfied that there is cause for further investigation of the incident.

Absent either, my only remaining question is: Is this the level to which you now wish to lower the standard for charges of this seriousness?
90 Comments • Print-friendlyPrint-friendly w/commentsShare on Facebook
Comments:

I remember learning that lynchings in the South rarely had witnesses either, yet they continued…

[1] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 09:59 AM • top

There are reasons for Mr. Mac-Illaya and Mr. Coward to be distraught and, here, lacking good judgement.

I think those who should be called accountable are those who signed the letter which is posted at thinkinganglicans, though Changing Attitudes should be asked to either provide evidence, or withdraw all accusations and cease from making such accusations in the future.  This saddens me since indeed it is possible that the allegations are true; but the facts provided are not sufficient point to the weighty charges that are implied - not even for a private note registering concern, not to mention a public letter like this one.

The main issue in the letter - language - is extremely important and we certainly can take this message to heart.  However, more concrete
In the context, it might also be worth asking ourselves about the anti-Christian violence which has taken place.

One can read a number of interesting things which have been said about Akinola here: http://akinola.wordpress.com/threat-of-islam/

Is there any more reason to think that people who attack gays in Nigeria are being influenced by words of Gafcon organizers, or others related to them, than to think that the words of those criticizing Gafcon influence the people who attack Christains?

The attitudes of many in Nigeria toward gays, it would seem, have little or nothing to do with a belief “that the language of criticism articulated against LGBT people in general and the Episcopal Church in particular gives them permission.”  Even if these people do read language “against ... the Episcopal Church,” one would guess that they would become far more angry at the tirades of Episcopals themselves when describing Archbishop Akonola.
And, is not an implied accusation of involvement in violence and murder more seriously incindiary speech than any examples brought up in the letter?

[2] Posted by j.m.c. on 04-10-2008 at 10:00 AM • top

FrVan:  You’re comparing <s>apples to oranges</s> strawberries to watermelons.

[3] Posted by Piedmont on 04-10-2008 at 10:08 AM • top

Father Van, thank you for the link above and your thoughtful post.

[4] Posted by oscewicee on 04-10-2008 at 10:11 AM • top

FrVan,

You completely miss the point.

Lynchings in the South usually had plenty of eyewitnesses; but in almost all cases, none of them had any interest in providing the authorities or the public with an account of the crime.

In the Nigeria case, there were a number of people present at the scene of the “crime” who, conversely, have a very keen interest in providing the public with an account of the crime. So where are they?

[5] Posted by Greg Griffith on 04-10-2008 at 10:18 AM • top

According to Jake/Susan/et al, anything that happens in the same time zone ++Akinola resides in is his fault.

the snarkster

[6] Posted by the snarkster on 04-10-2008 at 10:18 AM • top

This tale is pure fiction.  It lacks any veracity at all.  What do the police have to say about it?  Is it under investigation?  Are they able to confirm or deny that an incident was reported?  If the purported incident was reported to the police one would expect that somebody would follow up to interview the victim to ask additional questions.  What was he wearing?  How did he arrive?  How did he leave?  Which way did he go?  Did he have scars or tattoos? What was his hairstyle?  Was he tall or short?

[7] Posted by Piedmont on 04-10-2008 at 10:22 AM • top

FrVan:  Even if someone was lynched and those present didn’t come forward there were almost always other witnesses who found the deceased or could provide additional information such as hearing screams.  Your logic is flawed.

[8] Posted by Piedmont on 04-10-2008 at 10:38 AM • top

I would watch out making calls for photographic evidence. How easy would it be to just come up with some pictures of some guy who happens to have been beaten? If the story is true, then someone needs to put their money where their mouth is and bring forward the claimant doing whatever is necessary to gaurantee his protection and photos of him showing his injuries. It would also help to establish that he is indeed who he says he is ie a gay activist and a member of some group advocating for Nigerian gay people.

In other words, if someone had enough nerve to make up the story in the first place, then manufacturing evidence would not be against their scruples.

[9] Posted by StayinAnglican on 04-10-2008 at 10:43 AM • top

I think Fr. Van is right that a country can be lawlessness enough, violent enough, for it to be difficult to produce evidence, that witnesses themselves can be endangered. Think, for instance, of the relatives of those lynching victims. You bet *they* knew what happened. Could they legally prove it? Not a chance. I’m not saying that this incident happened. We don’t know whether it did or didn’t, which is about all we can say about it. We have doubts because of the past behaviour of the people making the claims - I certainly do. But I can’t positively rule it out. I do think that the people concerned would do anything to besmirch Akinola’s name and I imagine that the truth is they find him a much easier target because of his ties with the west, through his faith, and because, while he supported the prison sentence, the Muslims wanted death. I’d love to hear that CA was as outspoken - truth to power, is that the phrase? - to the Muslims of Nigeria about gay rights.

[10] Posted by oscewicee on 04-10-2008 at 10:51 AM • top

oscewicee,

But someone already has come forward. We don’t the person’s name, and we have nothing in the way of details about the alleged “attack” except that the thug perpetrator also happens to be a skilled orator.

The question is… where is ANYTHING ELSE? StayinAnglican is right to point out that it’s easy to fake photographic evidence, but we haven’t even been offered THAT.

[11] Posted by Greg Griffith on 04-10-2008 at 11:02 AM • top

I’m with Greg here.  These accusations just don’t pass the smell test.  Consider the following:
1. All of the incidents just seem to happen whenever Mac-Iyalla is around.
2. Mac-Iyalla is clearly a main person for the Changing Attitude PR campaign. 
3. In today’s world, there are a multitude of cheap, small devices to record photographs.  Recall that within hours of Saddam’s hanging, Bhutto’s assassination, etc., pictures of the events were released into the public domain.
4. So, to me, it is absolutely inconceivable that if Changing Attitude was really serous about documenting evidence (which they would be if their claims were true), Mac-Iyalla would not have a small photographic device and cell phone with him at all times and that he would use them.

Regarding the comparison to lynching in the South, there are a number of points of difference.  First, as has been pointed out, lynchings were carried out in the dark or secret and the persons present were the person(s) to be lynched and the lynch mob.  Independent witnesses were, by design, excluded.  Now, note that Mac-Iyalla’s claim is NOT that homosexuals were attacked in the dead of nigh.  No, he is claiming that they were attacked in front of a host of potential witnesses, yet not one spoke up.  Second, lynchings occurred during a different stage in technology - would lynchings have been kept so quiet if small photographic devices had been as freely available then as they are now?  Nowadays, it doesn’t take much to snap some pictures.  Third, lynching victims were typically isolated.  Mac-Iyalla, who seems to be present at all of the attacks, is very well connected to a wealthy Western political activist group.

So again, connect the dots.  If these accusations were credible, Mac-Iyalla would certainly have snapped pictures, and recorded interviews on tape.  But he didn’t.  Despite the ease of obtaining evidence, there is no evidence at all presented.

Does anyone really believe that a professional political activist with access to whatever technological resouces a wealthy Western political activist group would wish to give him, would not gather solid evidence together to document events, if such events actually took place?

Something just doesn’t smell right, people.

[12] Posted by jamesw on 04-10-2008 at 11:09 AM • top

This reeks of Tawana Brawley.

BigTex AC

[13] Posted by BigTex AC on 04-10-2008 at 11:11 AM • top

Got out my copy of After the Ball last night and this campaign is right out of the playbook.  There is actually a step-by-step process that is outlined in that book on exactly how to conduct such a campaign.  I read it last night then read Colin Coward’s press releases and it was, well, rather interesting.  It’s not even creative - it’s right out of the book.

Believe me - if they really cared about homosexuals who are being persecuted, why aren’t they creating a Changing Attitudes Iran?  Nigeria - if the Islamic extremists have their way - is aimed at becoming another Iran.  Bono, of all people, spoke to this when he was in Nigeria - he spoke very plainly that we must care about the progress being made in Nigeria, in the people most especially, or Nigeria will follow Iran.  He’s not kidding.

What the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church and other Christian believers are doing in Nigeria is attempting to resist through the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  What they face is foreign to us in the West - we have no idea, no idea.  The Anglicans, the Catholics and other Christian denominations are working together in ways that we in the West could only dream of. 

What Coward and the single-issue activists are doing is not about caring for homosexuals in Nigeria, or Iran, or Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia or in any of the other places around the world where the Christian faith is suppressed and Christians are persecuted and killed. Recently the “president” of Iran said there were no gays in Iran and if that’s true it’s either because gays live in terror for their lives if they come out - or they are all dead.  Where’s Changing Attitude Iran?

I would believe Colin Coward and others if they got out of their comfy cottages and moved to Northern Nigeria and lived there for ten years. He would find out just exactly who his real friends are and he would be VERY SURPRISED.

But it’s not about that, as we learn in After the Ball.  It’s not about that at all. 

Not long ago I met Archbishop Akinola’s coordinator for the Anglican Church AIDS Project in Nigeria.  I’m sorry I can’t remember the official name of the project, but I met the chairman at a dinner gathering.  I asked him how did he come to get involved in the project?  This Nigerian man looked me in the face and asked me bluntly, like we Americans often do, if I really wanted to know.  I was somewhat taken back - but I think he was inquiring on whether I was just being polite or if I really wanted to know.  I told him I really wanted to know.

For the next hour he told me the story and it was heartbreaking.  I looked at this man and I could feel the pain he had been through, the loss of all hope, the loss of the love of his life - and how the Archbishop of Nigeria, Peter Akinola, was like a father to him during darkest and most hopeless days.

I challenge these activists to get out of their After the Ball playbook and care about all people, all of them - of the millions who suffer under the oppression of Islamic fascism and need to hear the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  That young man not only heard the Good News of Jesus that changed his life, but he saw the Good News expressed in the compassion showed to him at his own darkest hour.

May that be true for us all.

bb


You can learn more about the playbook, After the Ball, these single-issue activists are following by clicking here.  It makes for fascinating - and illuminating - reading.

[14] Posted by BabyBlue on 04-10-2008 at 11:17 AM • top

Greg will be pleased to know that the most recent attack on Davis (who now lives in Togo) appears to have been witnessed and that hospital reports on the wound he suffered in a knife attack and the police report on what was in the syringe the attackers attempted to inject him with should be available for all to examine.

[15] Posted by Martin Reynolds on 04-10-2008 at 11:19 AM • top

This Dumb Sheep read the second link.  The argot used is abysmal.  Can’t someone write a rant without using gutter language. This isn’t discourse, it’s not even commentary, it’s just smugness made to o
look like justification.  Only One can justify.  And this commenter is not Him.

PS: The first link, about a post yesterday, doesn’t work on this computer (I’m at work, not at home.)
Dumb Sheep.

[16] Posted by dumb sheep on 04-10-2008 at 11:22 AM • top

If BabyBlue would like to contact me off list I would be pleased to share some information on the building of relationships within Islam and report on some work going on inside Muslim countries.

[17] Posted by Martin Reynolds on 04-10-2008 at 11:24 AM • top

Anyone who thinks that lynchings rarely had witnesses should Google images with the word “lynching.”

[18] Posted by William Witt on 04-10-2008 at 11:29 AM • top

They were usually mob scenes - they were a form of mob violence.

[19] Posted by oscewicee on 04-10-2008 at 11:36 AM • top

In the interest of objectivity, I think we all agree that violence against anyone, regardless of race, creed skin color, sex, profession or sexual preference is to be universally and stridently decried as not acceptable human behavior. And that violence can come in the form of actual physical violence as well as attacks on reputation via libel, slander and innuendo. Of course there will always be those that say “sticks and stones…” to slander or libel, but nonetheless, much has been made of words used and the potential for violence they can inflict - by both sides of the schism. All that being said, if one reviews the claims as made, they are serious charges - even in the midst of the violent reality that disfigures the nation of Nigeria, on many fronts. That being said, it is incumbent on those who report such things wherever they occur, to be thorough, accurate and journalistically principled. If they have any claim to journalistic integrity. Unfortunately, CA is an activism site, and as such has an inherent conflict of interest: as an activism group the reports are not subject to the same journalistic rigor other sources require (sic), and as in the example, are largely reported from a self-interest slant. The example given in their “news” section of the attack reported from Monday March 24th is as follows (in part):

Report from Monday 24 March 2008
The Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion) has stepped up its campaign against Changing Attitude Nigeria (CAN) and England. Davis Mac-Iyalla, Director of CAN, received a text message threatening his life on Holy Saturday, 22 March. The Reverend Colin Coward, Director of Changing Attitude England, received an intimidating text on Easter Monday, 24 March.

Nowhere else in the report is there any indication that the source of the text messages were from an identifiable Nigerian Anglican source - only the allegation that the “The Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion) has stepped up its campaign against Changing Attitude Nigeria (CAN) and England.” How they came to associate it as such is never mentioned. A reputable media editor (either indy or mainstream) would have sidelined this report until either the allegation was confirmed - or had it removed for lack of evidence. But since the site is an activist and advocacy site, these journalistic requirements are willfully ignored. It is within the realm of probability that the attackers were perhaps Anglican, perhaps Muslim declaring themselves Anglican in order to sow confusion and recrimination among the opposing population, it could have been simply hating individuals bent on attacking a high profile target. None of these considerations are allowed because the site is interested in helping undermine the public reputation of the Nigerian Anglican church and its authority. The ends do not justify the means to any except those for whom the only end is the complete acceptance of their agenda.

[20] Posted by masternav on 04-10-2008 at 11:43 AM • top

#‘s 11, 12, 18 & 19. You people need to cease and desist with your efforts to introduce facts into this discussion. The whole point of dialog is for the unenlightened laity to listen and respond affirmatively whenever the enlightened episcopate pauses for breath or asks a question. Do not muddle the discussion with facts. There is a higher truth at stake here, one which if you will just conform, will make you all into better, less doctrinaire, more pliable sheep.

That Pennyfeather guy really sinks into your pores, doesn’t he?

Piskie sez: Have you taken your loyalty oath today?

[21] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 04-10-2008 at 11:47 AM • top

Oh dear, Piedmont, Piedmont, Piedmont…(sigh), if you really believe that those who perpetrated the lynchings in action and by consent would speak out, or that those who were the oppressed that witnessed the lynchings, or claimed their bodies for burial, would be in a position to come forward, well, that is worse than naive…but maybe you don’t believe the lynchings took place? Unless you believe the information that came out about them years later…It is sort of like our Lord’s suffering and death. The “faithful” came out later with their eyewitness accounts, and then 2nd hand information.

[22] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 11:51 AM • top

#20 “You people…”?

[23] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 11:53 AM • top

A couple of points:
1) The culture in Nigeria is not American nor western. For instance, an African friend rolled his eyes and laughed in embarassment when an American friend of mine escorted his mother in-law on his arm when walking on the sidewalk. In African culture that act sends a very different signal. Moving over to homosexual immoral behavior (in both Muslim and Christian eyes) it isn’t surprising that a gay activist in that context will experience threats or even physical violence in a culture like that.
2. Violence against anyone (homosexual activist or not) is not Christian.
3. Could people misuse this event (which I have no reson to doubt its occurence) to attack those standing for Christian truth? With out a doubt.
4. The Church, even those “in the right” on an issue, is always full of sinful behavior.
5. But why is the Archbishop so quick to weigh in on this isolated event when bishops, priests and congregations are experiencing so much spiritual, legal and canonical violence and abuse in TEC and the ACC in North America?

[24] Posted by episcoanglican on 04-10-2008 at 11:54 AM • top

On a serious note, here is an archive of postcards of lynchings. Evil can be rather proud of itself at times. There is photographic evidence of any number of atrocities.

I don’t think asking for proof is out of line. I mean for the War of Jenkin’s Ear, the hawkish faction exhibited Jenkins and his ear, sometimes together and sometimes separately.

Piskie sez: Have you taken your loyalty oath today?

[25] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 04-10-2008 at 12:01 PM • top

Where there is smoke there is fire, some believe. In the case of child molestation for instance. I would rather err in being overly zealous to protect a life, or lives, than ignore it and be an accomplice by silence. I would hope that no one hates gay people so much that they desire silence to protect those perpetrating such horrible acts of violence.
I think it is terrible, for instance, that we deal with China, as a nation, when so many human rights violations occur there. But we look elsewhere while they take place in order to continue to make our beds with them. We justify, or divert attention.

[26] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 12:02 PM • top

To quote someone or other ...

It’s about the meaning; not the mechanism.

Whether it happened or not is truly irrelevant to the utility of this story to the Left.  It could have been a physical assault.  It could have been a metaphorical assault.  But the essential Truth they find in the story is in what it reveals about the character of those who declare homosexual conduct to be immoral - that they are proto-Sturm Abteilungen.  That is all that really matters to them.  They want it to be true, whether it happened or not.

Our challenge is to not want it to not to be true for the oppposite reason.  Let the facts fall where the will.

carl

[27] Posted by carl on 04-10-2008 at 12:05 PM • top

#26, FrVan. I try to be mindful of the ninth Commandment. To be accused of a crime you didn’t commit is an especially horrible thing. In this instance, photos would have been easily made. Even if it was not possible to ta take at the time of the incident, it would have been simple to take then afterwards. Further, such photos are better arguments than words ever could.

If you wish to have further discussion about speaking up vs remaining silent, I’ll be happy to accommodate you off list. Just send me a PM.

Piskie sez: Have you taken your loyalty oath today?

[28] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 04-10-2008 at 12:09 PM • top

#25… Continuing on a serious note, I am familiar with the site you mention, and many of the pictures. Most have been bought from private collections, and are not postcards, but were souvenirs. The truth coming out years later.

[29] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 12:10 PM • top

This from Anglican Mainstream

A letter from the Bishop of Portsmouth and others to some of the GAFCON Leadership has been posted on Thinking Anglicans. This was received earlier this week and draws attention to alleged incidents in Nigeria.  It is not made clear on what basis the work of GAFCON is connected with whatever may have happened in Nigeria. No details are given in the letter whether these regrettable events were in any way connected with Anglican or any other church or religious group. The basis of these claims is currently being investigated by GAFCON leadership in Nigeria

Chris Sugden

Hopefully, we will soon get to the bottom of all this

[30] Posted by Boring Bloke on 04-10-2008 at 12:23 PM • top

I am not saying that we should accuse those who are not politically correct in American terms (Akinola) with crimes just because they make foolish statements or accusations sometimes (that would be nearly all of us who post here). Nor would I suggest anyone take at face value the words of a pro-gay group (or any other political action group). However. I would not choose to elevate these accusations by attacking them either. Such acts lend credence because they show a certain feeling for the need to justify, or a strange sense of feeling an over-burden (to coin a phrase, I think) to defend. When we lift up such, what I pray are, scurrilous untruths to defend those we fear MAY have been attacked, then we are the ones adding the smoke, which meets the objectives of those who are arguing fire to create it.

[31] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 12:24 PM • top

In After the Ball, the authors talk about the juxtaposition of an event with a target.  In this case, we have an activist with his event juxtaposed with Archbishop Akinola.  Since the event is publicized to create sympathy for the activist, you put another image or person - in this case, the Archbishop of Nigeria - in the role of the one who caused the activists’ event.  Since the event has now manipulated you to feel sympathy for the activist and his cause (who wants to be thought of as heartless?) and you juxtapose it against someone that the activist wants to project as heartless - who are you going to side with?

The authors in After the Ball outline exactly how to do this and Colin Coward and his activist friends are following the strategy exactly.  It also includes getting someone of influence to denounce the event, thereby sliming the person who was juxtaposed with the event.  It is brilliant strategy and it’s worked in the Episcopal Church for years.

Truth has nothing to do with it.  It’s not about truth and that’s why we keep waxing lyrical at our windmills.  Even the method of “conversation” as an activists’ tool is outlined in the book. 

And guess what - even separating “meaning” from “mechanism” is in the book.  The authors use those very words to explain their concepts of redefining morality.

bb

[32] Posted by BabyBlue on 04-10-2008 at 12:25 PM • top

#28, “Just send me a PM.”

P.S.: Mousestalker, you want me to send you a Prime Minister? smile

[33] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 12:28 PM • top

Greg,
For what it’s worth, I saw the story last month on a news feed:
  Gay Nigeria Christian Leader Narrowly Escapes Death in Brutal Attack
It would be difficult to verify the quotes since the victim quoted is not identified.

[34] Posted by John316 on 04-10-2008 at 12:32 PM • top

#33, Only as long as it isn’t Tony Blair (too smarmy) or John Majors (too dull). Does that leave anyone? I know Margaret Thatcher is still alive, but she’s getting a bit too frail for any major travel.

I doth have a blog thingy

[35] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 04-10-2008 at 12:36 PM • top

John316, the news source is a gay news source - has it been in the legitimate press?

[36] Posted by oscewicee on 04-10-2008 at 12:37 PM • top

#31, FrVan - not sure what you are targeting in your quote in #23, but let me instead speak to your assertions in #31. If we are to truly champion justice (and mercy) in our society, we must apply the standards we desire equitably. We cannot, in addressing and remediating injustice, be unjust. Likewise we should not tolerate libel and slander without evidence, simply because they “might be so”. Our justice must be equitable, must be blind to circumstance, state, or preference in order to be just. I particularly object to anyone attempting to unblind justice and cause bias to the judgement among ourselves. That we need to support the right and proper treatment of all humans is without question. To justify slander and libel as remedies within justice to right wrongs or to correct other injustices is to dismantle the very protections that guard all rights among us regardless of difference.

[37] Posted by masternav on 04-10-2008 at 12:48 PM • top

However. I would not choose to elevate these accusations by attacking them either.

FrVan: I might even agree with you there if this was the first such accusation made by Mac-Iyalla & Company. However, they have made numerous such allegations in the past against ++Akinola and his Church based on flimsy or nonexistent evidence. He may or may not have been attacked. To date he has shown no evidence that he was. And even if he was attacked, there is even less evidence that +Akinola had anything to do with it whatsoever.

What these people really want to do is silence +Akinola and anyone else who vocally supports the official Anglican Communion position (Lambeth 1.10 1998) that homosexual practice is incompatible with Scripture and therefore sinful.

the snarkster

[38] Posted by the snarkster on 04-10-2008 at 12:56 PM • top

This takes us back ten years ago when there were those who attempted to lay the blame for Matthew Shepherd’s death on Dr. Dobson’s doorstep.  It too streched credulity, but I digress…
Without objective proof along the lines of a police report, a medical/hospital report, photographic evidence or an actual victim, this is little more than the stuff of urban legend. 
If this event happened, it is deplorable.  Any violent assault against another person is cowardly and despicable and the perp’s should be horsewhipped.  Its sub-civilized and Sub-Christian behavior.  Why should the fact that it supposedly victimized one choosing the homosexual lifestyle make it any more or less craven?

[39] Posted by aterry on 04-10-2008 at 12:58 PM • top

“. . .has it been in the legitimate press?”

Heh, I’m not sure what passes for legitimate press anymore.  If by legitimate press you mean Mainstream Media, then I don’t know if it is a big enough story to get their attention since they wouldn’t have had a reporter covering the funeral. 
If the story grows though, the MSM might send somebody to check the veracity of the story.  If for instance, it didn’t happen, then I would think that funeral goers, as well as the minister presiding that day, might be excited to have a chance to refute the story. 
Likewise if it happened as reported and they heard the disturbance outside while the funeral was going on, credible reports supporting the story might be part of a MSM report on the incident and any aftermath. 
But I don’t think this story has the legs to get that far. 
I use different news feeds to stay informed and remember seeing that story pass by.

[40] Posted by John316 on 04-10-2008 at 12:59 PM • top

This takes us back ten years ago when there were those who attempted to lay the blame for Matthew Shepherd’s death on Dr. Dobson’s doorstep.

Excellent point aterry! A lot of the more moderate protesters out there are saying “Well, maybe +Akinola didn’t have any role in the alleged attack but he said homosexual acts were sinful so it’s still his fault.”

the snarkster

[41] Posted by the snarkster on 04-10-2008 at 01:09 PM • top

Gentlemen, I think you are missing the central point.

This is all about revolution.  This is about changing society.  Thee is now a western elitist consensus that Christianity, well, orthodox-actually-believing-in-God Christianity must pass away so the ‘Star Trek’ secular Utopia can come into being.

The media are on it.  There is a campaign, indeed, even a conspiracy now (with various secularists groups now registering that Christianity is weak enough to be completely wiped out of public space so they are now co-ordinating) with homobophia being the stick to beat us with.

The train has left the station.  Persecution across the whole of the West is upon us.  The Propaganda we being fed (dished up by the BBC quite happily and without investigation) serves to drive forward the revolution.  Rowan Williams will serve up anything ‘Changing Attitudes’ feeds him because he supports the revolutionaries.

The West has decided Orthodox Christianity must go.  The West has ‘lost patience’ with us Nethandrals.  Fabricating stories is perfectly allowed now since we’re just too dumb to recognise God is Dead. Seriously, in about 3-5 years time we’ll have stories on how Christians sacrifice (kill) their own children to ‘God’ reported on the MSM.

TEC is a symptom of a deeper problem.  The West has decided Christianity must go (though a liberal ‘shell’ Church is allowed for the sentimental as long as it is understood nothing in that ‘Church’ actually means anything.)  The revolution is upon us and won’t be stopped.  Actually, it started in the 1960’s but it just reaching it’s inevitable conclusion.  All revolutions end with show trials and hangings of a despised group.  We’re that group.  The truth doesn’t matter now - not to Schlori, to Williams, to the media.  All think Orthodoxy has had it’s day and must be closed down.

Prepare to lose your job, be denied State benefits and arrested on trumped up charges.

[42] Posted by jedinovice on 04-10-2008 at 01:37 PM • top

Dear masternav:
  Many people believe where the is smoke there is fire. My point is that to create smoke from the writings or accusations of those who have very little credibility is to give those very people the fuel to make the fire. It creates the need for defensiveness, and than more defensiveness, which creates the springboard necessary for Mac-Iyalla & Company (of whom I knew nothing, or had heard of, until this site) to enter into the conversation and minds of the societies, groups, and individuals, they are targeting. We are giving them the gas they want to pour on the flames they are creating. They can find incendiary words spoken, or misquoted, to lob into the conversation, and the fire will grow. In #32, bb makes this point far better than I can, by interpreting the writings of those who would undo us.

[43] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 01:47 PM • top

Legitimate press is global - you can search through Yahoo news or other sites, newspapers and news services from all over the world. I just wondered if anything had turned up there (and yeah, I still think of it as legitimate press even though it’s got a lot of problems these days.)

[44] Posted by oscewicee on 04-10-2008 at 01:48 PM • top

My point is that to create smoke from the writings or accusations of those who have very little credibility is to give those very people the fuel to make the fire.

For sure it gives them a lot more smoke to make it look like there’s a fire.

[45] Posted by oscewicee on 04-10-2008 at 01:50 PM • top

FrVan:  I think that you misunderstood my point.  Somebody had to have heard or seen something if this supposed violent assault actually happened. This “muscular man” could not have suddenly appeared out of thin air then disappeared just as mysteriously.  Methinks Mr. Mac-Iyalla is replete of bovine manure.

[46] Posted by Piedmont on 04-10-2008 at 01:51 PM • top

My apologies my dear Piedmont. By the way, this site has recently taught me that bovine manure, and its like, can be a great incindiary device. smile

[47] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 01:54 PM • top

I know, I know, Piedmont, it is “incendiary.” smile

[48] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 01:56 PM • top

If I may interject here…
I don’t think we should be asking whether or not this event happened.  What we should be asking is:
1.  How can Christians allow an environment for this to happen come into being?
2.  Why hasn’t the shepherd of this flock addressed it?
Whether or not the act took place, take a moment and think about this.  Why do we allow persecution of people who we do not agree with?  Were we not in the same boat as Christians 1600 years ago?  Voilence and hatred only breed more violence and hatred.  I have seen enough name calling, chest beating and sackloth wearing on this issue.  Let’s try to come to an understanding here.  Whether you believe homosexuality is a sin or not, violence against LGBT’s or anyone else is WRONG!  It is in my mind a horrible sin.  When are we going to stop being Pharases and realize that Christ’s message is LOVE!  Love God, Love your neighbor as if he were you.  This is the heart and soul of Christ.  Even IF this act never happened, acts like this happen every day.  Why?  What is the cause?  How do we combat it.  Violence against anyone is sinful, end of story.  Not doing anything about it is just as sinful, and far more important than worrying about whether or not one act happened.  It is a symptom of a cancer within the Body of Christ.  That cancer is HATE, and if we don’t do something to stop it, it will kill us.  but what do I know, I’m just a redneck from the Ozarks.

[49] Posted by Arkansas Hillbilly on 04-10-2008 at 02:01 PM • top

You know, Arkansas Hillbilly, in some sense, your first question gets to the whole dispute here.  Christians didn’t allow an environment for this to happen to come into being.  The thugs who perpetrated this created that environment.

[50] Posted by Phil on 04-10-2008 at 02:11 PM • top

#49, As a fellow Arkansan, I agree that all, especially and including Akinola, should stand up and condemn “such” acts of violence. The question is, was “this” reported act true as reported, or did it really happen? Also, as an aside, and wildly off topic, not all Arkansans are “rednecks” (I don’t want others left with such an impression, some of us for example, in the Delta, prefer to think of ourselves living as vestiges of a decaying aristocracy. Now, on the other hand, I was a redneck growing up in W.Va..

[51] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 02:14 PM • top

oops, I meant hillbilly…(read red face here)

[52] Posted by FrVan on 04-10-2008 at 02:15 PM • top

oscewicee,
I haven’t seen anything in the MSM other than the BBC story mentioned above.  The attention that the BBC gives the Archbishop’s comments may actually be a good thing since it might spark an investigative type report.
I’m cynical though that any MSM reporting would be considered any more credible on this subject than the reports cited in the alternative/gay media. 
For instance, it seems to be widely assumed that the ABC is commenting, and the BBC is reporting on it, without any fact checking.
I don’t even know that the police reports mentioned in the story of the attack on Davis Mac-Iyalla are accessible to the media since it is doubtful that there are Freedom of Information laws in his country, so we may never know with out some credible digging by reporters.

[53] Posted by John316 on 04-10-2008 at 02:29 PM • top

As I have been saying at Titus: what should be condemned is the blatant attempt by the radical homosexual group to impugn the characters of the GAFCon primates.

“Well, there was anti-homosexual violence somewhere in Africa and you are a Africans, after all. Therefore you are guilty by geography.”

It is worse than preposterous. It is bearing false witness.

[54] Posted by robroy on 04-10-2008 at 02:29 PM • top

“Lynchings in the South usually had plenty of eyewitnesses; but in almost all cases, none of them had any interest in providing the authorities or the public with an account of the crime.”
There are lots of postcards and photographs of lynchings in the South from the time.  There were no lack of witnesses and photographs.  It was just that the witnesses wouldn’t testify in court to rat out the lynchers in the rare case where lynching was prosecuted, like the Emmett Till case.

[55] Posted by Violent Papist on 04-10-2008 at 02:57 PM • top

Regarding point 6 in the original post and comments on previous thread here:
I work with a number of non-native English speakers, and when certain terms are translated there is rarely a one-to-one correspondence.  Frequently, the best approximation my colleagues can come up with has this same unusual flavor as the words attributed to the attacker.  It is very likely that the one reporting this did not do so in English but that these statements are best-approximation translations. 

The language of the attacker seeming unusual is not a very good argument for these reports having been made up, imho.

[56] Posted by InSoOhio on 04-10-2008 at 03:05 PM • top

Really?
Point me to where Susan Russell made that allegation and I’ll check it out with her.

[57] Posted by Susan Russell on 04-10-2008 at 03:11 PM • top

# 54 robroy is right on. Where is your evidence? No witnesses? And you don’t know the victims name? Please… are we really that naive? Considering the characters who are making these charges their tale has a purpose all right, and that is play the “victim card” and accuse somebody, anybody. The deed is done, it works and it is right out of the book,  “After the Ball”.

[58] Posted by bradhutt on 04-10-2008 at 03:30 PM • top

Jedinovice,

I agree. Its funny how those who believe in the perfectibility of human nature through education inevitably turn to some kind of force (It doesnt matter whether that force is physical or not. Its still force.) to impose their progressive notions on the greater populace. This is because they always run into the fact of human nature. That is, in its natural state, it is not perfectible. It is incorrigible. It is impervious to fundamental change via simple education alone. (Only supernatural grace has ever shown any power to change the human heart)

As always when these types run into the fact that wholesale progessive change does not in fact come about through such liberal ideals as progressive education, dialouge and conversation, these types never fail to blame their methods as opposed to blaming the idea of human perfectibility. No, they insist, we are right about that. We only need to adopt more forceful and/or stealthy methods to get the job done. Once they have essentially forced the change that they desire, they believe, then the human race will actually be that much closer to the ideal.

The fact that the race will also be less free doesnt really bother them.

[59] Posted by StayinAnglican on 04-10-2008 at 03:33 PM • top

I’ve posted on Rev. Russell’s site and on T19 and Stand Firm from time to time.  I have a Master’s degree in Conflict Analysis and Resolution.  I can say with some confidence that we have reached the point where all communication has broken down—nothing good will come of this thread at this time.  We, and I mean all of us reasserter and reappraiser alike, need to step back and count to ten, pray, whatever.  This whole issue has spun out of control.  There are no facts, only accusations.  Nothing good has come of this and it is highly unlikely anything will.  This is a road we have all been walking down for quite some time.  It will take a long time to walk back the other way.  At this point, all I can say is that I pray you think and pray before you post.

We can point fingers, assign blame, but it will get us nowhere at this point.  The rhetorical atmosphere is superheated.  There is no discussion, no listening, no forgiveness.  I know silence will not resolve the matters but ask yourself,“Is there something that I can post now that can’t wait until tomorrow?”. 

Maybe I am just crying in the wilderness…but please…just wait.

[60] Posted by rwkachur on 04-10-2008 at 03:40 PM • top

Again, I must interject…
Robroy, you are missing my point.  The question should not be about character of anyone.  Enough of the name calling and finger pointing… +++Akinola said this, CAN did that, you started it, did not, did too, but my bishop’s holier than your bishop…  Do you see where this is going?  This is what it looks like to those outside the Communion.  We are being childish.  Ok, so you don’t agree with me on the LGBT issue itself.  Fine.  There is room in the Communion for that (we are one body many parts).  Like I think I said before, even if this incident didn’t happen(and I think it did), this type of violence happens every day around the world!  Not just to LGBT’s but in some places to Christians, to Muslims in others, etc. and we need to figure out WHY!  What in our language, our mission as ambasadors and heralds to the Kingdom of the Living Christ is contributing to this culture?  Why do people feel it is OK to commit acts of violence against another group because they are different?  This is the question we need to ask.  This should be the goal of every Christian out there, regardless if you are Anglican, Catholic, Methodist, whoever.  Find out why and do your part to stop it!  This Ozark redneck doesn’t care if you’re gay,straight, Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Gentile, man or woman, for all are equal in God’s sight and all are loved by Christ.  I can do no different.  “No one is righteous, no not one.”  I refuse to tell someone they are sinners when I am as well.  What I will tell them and you as well, is that Christ is Risen!  So all of you stop being Pharases and start worrying about fixing the problem!  And as a Baptist preacher once asked his congregation, “Did I step on your toes?  Good!”

[61] Posted by Arkansas Hillbilly on 04-10-2008 at 03:42 PM • top

It seems to me the veracity of the story is not the only issue.  Hypothetically speaking, let’s say the story is true.  Isn’t it the responsibility of the press officer to verify the facts on the ground and have the verification available before having a high profile public figure publicly respond?  Particularly when the accused is a professional colleague of the high profile public figure and high profile himself?  The way this has been handled, the press release has weakened the trust between the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Global South.  The Anglican Communion News Service, if it is committed to preserving the Communion, should be going to great lengths to have all of the incriminating evidence available. 
They’re not dumb.  One wonders if they are trying to sabotage the work of the Windsor Continuation Group to rebuild trust.

[62] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 04-10-2008 at 03:47 PM • top

One wonders if the whole point of this exercise is to drive a wedge between the ABC and GS. Or, rather, widen the breech that has already been made.

[63] Posted by oscewicee on 04-10-2008 at 03:50 PM • top

It’s the old consequentialism versus deontology argument. Does the end justify the means? Yawn. Bonhoeffer certainly wrestled with that one in another era. What I’m reading looks more like fog - a smokescreen to deflect attention away from what’s important.

By the way, the “Stops the World” website notes, “Statements suggesting that the Presiding Bishop is not a Christian or that the staff at 815 are guided by reading Hitler’s Mein Kampf are mean spirited and poisonous.”

If the 815 staff were put on trial and accused of being Christians, would there be enough evidence to convict them? Or, would they have to go for an appeal? Are their recent actions Christlike? We aren’t their judge, nor are we their jury. They will someday face their Judge, and we pray that they will receive better treatment than they are dishing out. Our moral responsibility to them is to call them to repentance. I think that many are doing that. If they choose not to repent, and if the Godly admonitions of our faithful Bishops have no effect on them, then it’s time to shake the dust off our sandals, move on, and set up a full-fledged second province.

As for the other part of it, well…I don’t know what book they are using for guidance, but it seems apparent what Book they are NOT using for guidance.

I do agree with “Fr. Jake” on one point. We must continue to pray for all concerned. After all, mean-spirited and/or poisonous comments only strengthen the diabolical daimonion.

It is very hard to ask God’s blessing on these individuals.

[64] Posted by Ralph on 04-10-2008 at 03:56 PM • top

Arkansas Hillbilly, you say, “The question should not be about character of anyone.” What about the character and reputation of ++Akinola, which is assailed almost daily?  What about the unjustified threats he has received? It seems it’s easy to be satisfied as long as it’s somebody else’s character on the line.

[65] Posted by Paula on 04-10-2008 at 04:01 PM • top

Susan,

In [57], which allegation are you saying you didn’t make?

[66] Posted by Greg Griffith on 04-10-2008 at 04:48 PM • top

Ralph, it’s not hard at all to pray for them and for ourselves:<blockquote>Dear Heavenly Father,
Our faith is so flimsy, our hearts so cold, our spiritual vision so blind, it is only in You that we have hope.  We cry out, Lord.  We cry out for our opponents.  We cry out for ourselves.  We cry out for all of Your people.
Have mercy, Lord.
Your understanding is perfect, and Your love without limit.  We thank You for loving all of Your people. 
We lift up the homosexuals in Nigeria, especially Davis Mac-Iyalla.  Protect them from harm, and heal their wounds, both physical and spiritual. 
We lift up those that would attack them.  Heal their hearts.
We lift up the media, especially the Anglican Communion News Service and the Anglican bloggers.  Help them to grow into the stature of Christ, to see with the eyes of Christ, to understand with the mind of Christ, and to love with the heart of Christ.
Lastly, Lord, we lift up Rowan Williams and Peter Akinola.  Anoint them with Your Holy Spirit.  If their understanding of You is distorted or incomplete, heal their understanding.  Grant them the peace that passes understanding.  Give them the wisdom and the courage and the love to do all that You would have them do.  Amen.

[67] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 04-10-2008 at 07:00 PM • top

Amen, Jill, and thank you.

[68] Posted by oscewicee on 04-10-2008 at 07:03 PM • top

These arguments hit home for me when I read something on the HOD listserv referring back to that old bugaboo (read: ridiculous and misplaced theory to comfort one’s own conscience) that somehow a Centurion valuing his male slave meant he was sleeping with that slave.  Then legitimate arguments against pop up, then EXECUTIVE COUNCIL members chime in to support the gay slave theory.

I don’t think I’ve ever been less amused by the leadership of any denomination in my short 46 years of life.  There is rampant delusion, all centered on preventing anybody in authority from having to grow up.

Well boys and girls, if you want to remain children in your faith, or worse yet, pillory those who hold to the Truth (which I realize you won’t acknowledge exists, but that’s life), try to do it on your own time, outside of the Christianity you are seeking so violently to destroy.

Please.  As long as you live, your soul has hope.

Everybody else, don’t falter…KTF!....mrb

[69] Posted by Mike Bertaut on 04-10-2008 at 07:53 PM • top

[comment deleted—links to and quotes comment spam]

[70] Posted by MargaretG on 04-11-2008 at 12:15 AM • top

Hi Margaret G,

No harm done and I know that you’re trying to keep people informed, but because progressives are comment spamming so much on other blogs—and tried to do so with StandFirm some months ago—we simply don’t allow full posts or even most links to other blogs in the comment threads. 

If you would send it on to Greg and let him make the decision about posting it, that would be great. 

Thanks.

[71] Posted by Sarah on 04-11-2008 at 06:15 AM • top

Once again, folks, the question is *not* whether there has ever been any physical violence against gays (in Lagos, Yonkers, Tonekabon, or Stepney).  There has been (and presumably will be more), and everyone here condemns it unequivocally in the strongest possible terms.

The question is whether a specific event occurred as claimed.  Greg presents logical reasons why he finds the claim unconvincing, and quite rightly requests evidence—or at least additional detail.  Neither has been forthcoming, despite Mr. Mac-Iyalla’s demonstrated sophistication in public relations and technology as well as his close and apparently continuous communication with several European advocacy organizations.

In the words of the ancient hymn, “Put up or shut up.”

[72] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 04-11-2008 at 11:07 AM • top

#42   I find your logic compelling and although I would not pretend “prophet status” I did just re-read John’s Gospel of Revelations. Definitely food for thought. Obviously the only way such a long term and systematic attack on Chrisianity can be coordinated and inspired is by satan himself.

[73] Posted by yankeeintexas on 04-11-2008 at 01:42 PM • top

Sarah

You might like to consider the implications of the (very surprising) decision to delete a link to a comment in (horrors - that appalling website!!!) Titusonenine - a comment which on the face of it (and that is all I had to go on) provided the very details like cellphone numbers, dates, names etc which Greg was seeking in this post.

I would have thought that if you did not like to have the CONTENT here you would have at least have referred it to Greg yourself. ie it was not off-topic but rather it appeared to be an exact answer and Greg should see it. If you didn’t like the LANGUAGE (and it was a measured list of facts so I would be surprised by that decision) then you could have summarised the key facts yourself.

By deleting it with the comment and replacing it with the comment that you have put, it appears to me (and I am a regular commentator on this site and hardly known as a liberal troll) that you are wanting to suppress the very facts that Greg has so scathingly argued were not available.

I have no knowledge of whether this information is correct or not—but I would have thought that was the issue that needs to be determined NOT the suppression of these facts and the continued insistence that they do not exist.

[74] Posted by MargaretG on 04-11-2008 at 03:05 PM • top

Hi Margaret G—it’s been a policy of StandFirm’s for the past year not to 1) accept lengthy cut and pastes of stories from other blogs in comments and 2) not to accept revisionist news stories that progressives are comment spamming around the blogosphere [a common and rather desperate practice now].

We have asked also—for the past year—that folks who want stuff posted should email a blogger off-blog to request it.  We have probably made this request 20-25 times over the past year, although it’s certainly understandable that you weren’t aware of it.

We have very consistently asked for this, although of course have allowed exceptions.  This one you posted—[and incidentally another commenter posted this morning on another thread, with the exact same result]—fits both of the above criteria.

Finally it has also been a policy for much longer than a year not to discuss comment policies on thread, but rather via private messaging.  So I’ll delete this response to you and your comment in a little while, so that the thread is not gummed up with comment policy discussions.

[75] Posted by Sarah on 04-11-2008 at 04:29 PM • top

Dear Sarah:
  What does “progressives are comment spamming around the blogosphere” mean. What is comment spamming? Is it fun? Can you do it by yourself, or do you need someone else? Really, what is it?

[76] Posted by FrVan on 04-11-2008 at 04:34 PM • top

Well—seeing as how the original “press release” by Colin Coward was copy and pasted into the comment boxes of 54 blogs, FrVan - -that would be a prime example of comment spamming.

It’s fairly common now amongst progressives, and I expect demonstrates a degree of desperation that had not existed a year ago.

[77] Posted by Sarah on 04-11-2008 at 04:38 PM • top

Well, busy little devils aren’t they?!? Thank you for explaning…Did we use to call it spam?

[78] Posted by FrVan on 04-11-2008 at 04:41 PM • top

PS: we first noted it as a practice some time ago, but it really really escalated during the Schofield debacle beginning six months ago.  Revisionists simply copied and pasted random and entirely off-topic “stories” that they had developed into comment threads of blogs that had the traffic they needed—and indeed, they were encouraged to do so by the progressive activists [who incidentally stayed discreetly out of it, since we moved to automatic banning once that got started, and those activists didn’t seem too inclined to go get banned themselves].  ; > )

Just for the record, I know that MargaretG is not indulging in such a practice, and yes, she is a long-time commenter, nor was the comment off-topic, but it violates a constantly stated comment policy of a year.  And indeed—we’ll be tightening up on this even more now that we recognize the escalation of the practice.

See here for more on the future of how we’ll now be handling anything from Colin Coward’s site:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/11672/

[79] Posted by Sarah on 04-11-2008 at 04:44 PM • top

Thanks again dear lady. And now I shall heave my weary body out of the salt mine, and into my jogging shoes, followed by a scotch ...with a toast to all, and thanks for all I’ve learned today. Blessings are always gained from the many faithful folk here. God Bless!

[80] Posted by FrVan on 04-11-2008 at 04:49 PM • top

FrVan—let me correct something.  The “story”—the press release from Colin Coward —was posted at 53 blogs [obviously nicely coordinated] and in some comment boxes, but not all 53.  Apologies for that error.  Comment spam of progressive “stories” though is escalating like crazy—and we simply won’t allow it at SF.

[81] Posted by Sarah on 04-11-2008 at 05:04 PM • top

Sarah:

I’m glad you clarified this because I didn’t have a clue what you meant either.  Interesting that reappraisers are SO desperate they have to spam now… very sad, really.

Do they believe this gives them integrity?  Lying? Spreading Spam?  Just shows how absolutely pathetic their attempts at relevance are.

Note:  Crickets continue to chirp regarding evidence about any of these revisionist claims… that in and of itself proves it is NOT true.

[82] Posted by Eclipse on 04-11-2008 at 05:30 PM • top

I don’t know the answers to your questions, Eclipse. 

Indeed, there are some blogs that don’t seem to mind this sort of thing—but there are plenty of others [not merely Anglican] who get awfully peeved that organizations create “stories” and various other supporters of those “stories” copy and paste them whole cloth into comment threads in their target market. 

I don’t really think it’s an “immoral” practice—it’s more “practical” in that it takes advantage of another’s blog audience in order to try to get more play on the “story.”  I can understand being tempted to do it, frankly, especially if it’s not audited by the blog owners.

[83] Posted by Sarah on 04-11-2008 at 05:39 PM • top

Just as a ps, we receive now many many suggested stories and ideas via the Private Message option here.  That’s always a nice option if someone would like to highlight news they have found.

[84] Posted by Sarah on 04-11-2008 at 05:40 PM • top

MargaretG, I think I tried to introduce the very same material on another thread, and it was also rejected.  I agree with you that it seems to be the kind of detail we are asking for in this case—cell phone numbers and such.  Also, it was posted here on Stand Firm (in a comment) last night; that’s where I first saw it, so you all might try looking above for wvepiscopalian, who found it on Titus19.  I don’t know if it’s still displayed here or not, but I saw it this morning as well as last night on this same thread here at SF.  I am a strongly orthodox reasserter and am not trying to promote Spam.

[85] Posted by Paula on 04-11-2008 at 05:45 PM • top

Sarah Hey :

I am not going to pull this thread off topic, but when the only way to get your message out is to copy and spam it to a bunch of other sites, then that is pathetic - which is what the case was here.  It just tells you how desperate they truly are.

(Paula and Margaret - I’m not talking about you - I do wish IF there was any information regarding cell phones, etc, Greg would publish it in some format)

The other indication is just how silent our worthy opponents are when they are called to provide anything substantial in the way of proof.  Proves this was only a smear campaign and just, frankly, disgusting.  BabyBlue is right on the mark.

[86] Posted by Eclipse on 04-12-2008 at 07:48 AM • top

Thank you both Paula and Eclipse for actually picking up the important point in my second post. Sarah—you carefully evaded my point and sorry looks very bad.

The important point was that there is a post on Titusonenine (and for all I know other websites) that appears to give the information that Greg has said is not available. Well it is available—though whether it is correct or not I cannot tell.

However, for Standfirm to aggressively push for answers AND THEN REFUSE TO POST THEM makes you look like you are using underhand tactics.

If the “facts” are not really facts—then fine, post a rebuttal. If you are not sure whether they are or not then post and see if anyone else knows, but to suppress them—and that is all that you have done—under the guise (and yes, it does look like a guise) of saying “it is spamming by the liberals” is unacceptable.

[87] Posted by MargaretG on 04-12-2008 at 08:50 PM • top

RE: ” . . . and sorry looks very bad . . . “

Neither I nor the rest of the StandFirm bloggers are concerned about how it “looks” to you.  We don’t make decisions based on how things “look.”  I’m okay with your believing that it looks very bad.

RE: “The important point was that there is a post on Titusonenine (and for all I know other websites) that appears to give the information that Greg has said is not available.”

Well, no—there is no “post” on T19 that appears to give such information.  There is yet another copy and paste of portions of yet another of Colin Coward’s press releases into the comment threads of T19 by one of the usual suspects.  But that is a rather different thing.

Furthermore, the portions in question conflate 1) the attack on the gay leader outside of the funeral—about which Greg was asking the details in the above post and 2) the threatening text messages to Davis Mac Illaya, if you will note about which Greg asked nothing in the above post.  For the attack on the gay leader outside of the funeral, the progressive comment spammer merely quoted the portion of Colin Coward’s original press release which we already had, and for which the detail continues to remain strikingly sparse.  And then of course there is the other attack apparently conducted on Davis Mac Illaya as he rode his motorcycle—also an attack about which Greg asked nothing in the above post.

Why on earth Greg would “publish” an additional press release from Colin Coward about text messages and telephone numbers I have no clue—he asked for specific details about the attack on the gay leader outside of the funeral and quoted all of the “details” that had been originally supplied.

In short, MargaretG, there is no “post on Titusonenine” nor is there even comment spam on T19 “that appears to give the information that Greg has said is not available”.

If you’re so keen to read Colin Coward’s press releases, however, and learn more about the subjects that Colin Coward and the rest of the blogosphere has been referring to, you are more than welcome to go and read them.

But no—they won’t be posted here at StandFirm, nor will they be allowed to be posted within the comments.  Greg has supplied plenty of links in his now three posts that will allow readers to link to Peter Ould’s excellent analysis, the Colin Coward press release, and even the ridiculous Anti-Akinola blog.

Finally, MargaretG—not posting something that you or some other commenter desires us to post isn’t “suppression”, any more than my not buying the latest Jack Spong book and giving it to you is “suppression.”  We’ll post what we deem worthy and newsworthy to post.  And based on the past week, it’s looking as if it will be a long—a very long—time before anything that Colin Coward posts about future matters will be posted here at StandFirm.

Further comments on the comment policies at StandFirm—as has been the long long custom—will be deleted, since as we’ve explained now scores of times in the past two years, comment policy discussions are off-topic.

It does appear now, however, that you were aware of the comment policies of the past year about not copying and pasting lengthy quotes from other blogs into the comment section—and that you simply decided to go on ahead and violate that comment policy anyway.  I could be reading you incorrectly and I would welcome a response to whether that is true or whether I have misread your latest comments, but off-blog, please.

[NOTE FROM SARAH: I had indeed been reading MargaretG incorrectly, as she kindly explained via Private Message.  She had had no knowledge of the comment policy, nor did she intend to violate those policies.  I am glad to set the record straight here at my last comment.]

[88] Posted by Sarah on 04-12-2008 at 10:23 PM • top

[comment deleted—off topic; feel free to contact any of the SF bloggers through private messaging]

[89] Posted by MargaretG on 04-13-2008 at 02:57 AM • top

Re:  Phone numbers and text messages -

I did google that phone number, by the by, just see what would turn up and only the Changing Attitudes reference came up. 

I know it’s a Nigerian (or supposedly a Nigerian one) but shouldn’t of SOMETHING else have turned up besides that post if it were real?  In addition, if you have the number, why isn’t the person texting in custody?  It’s just a little on the flimsy side.  It’s like my saying I got an anti-Anglican Cat message on my cell phone from “1-800-228-3845”  Bet that one doesn’t turn up either.

[90] Posted by Eclipse on 04-13-2008 at 01:39 PM • top

Registered members are welcome to leave comments. Log in here, or register here.


Comment Policy: We pride ourselves on having some of the most open, honest debate anywhere about the crisis in our church. However, we do have a few rules that we enforce strictly. They are: No over-the-top profanity, no racial or ethnic slurs, and no threats real or implied of physical violence. Please see this post for more. Although we rarely do so, we reserve the right to remove or edit comments, as well as suspend users' accounts, solely at the discretion of site administrators. Since we try to err on the side of open debate, you may sometimes see comments that you believe strain the boundaries of our rules. Comments are the opinions of visitors, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of Stand Firm, its board of directors, or its site administrators.