Mumblings and Effusions From The Diocese of Northern Michigan

There are rumblings up here that the laity and even some of the clergy are not real happy with some of the published remarks of the standing committee.

One wonders what they can possibly publish to top this.  Last September, they declared (in their “response” to the Dar communique), that we are, each and every one of us, an “only begotten child of God.”  Now we have been promoted to living incarnations of the Trinity.

I am wondering if they actually send this stuff to the people it is supposedly addressed to (in the latest case, the Convenant Design Group, the September statement to the Primates of the Communion).  I rather suspect that they just publish it in the diocesan newsletter and give it a pretentious headline.  If they really do send it out, I would love to have a copy of the replies to this from +Drexel Gomez or +Greg Venables.  I understand that this falls into what is classed in some fairly official Anglican circles as “whacky theology.”

Please do understand that there are many good, faithful people in this diocese, who believe the creeds and mean what they say in the general confession.  In no way are those people represented by the outpourings of nonsense from the standing committee.  There is increasingly vocal opposition.

We need your prayers.  And, please feel free to take shots at the heretical pronouncements of the “leadership” of this diocese, but do remember in your remarks that these are beliefs of a few elitists with control of the diocesan media, and not necessarily representative of the “people in the pews” or even all the deaneries in the diocese.

TJ

Have Episcopalians in “da U.P” been ingesting too much yellow snow?  Something in the venison?  Or are there particularly virulent mosquitoes up there?  Their unorthodox theology apparently has even affected Jackie and her spelling of mumblings.

Spellcheck is not my friend today.  Thanks, Sheepdog. 

TJM, prayers for all in the Diocese of Northern Michigan. God bless.

TJ, thanks for reminding us that there are faithful in the camps.  I will keep you guys in my former home state in my prayers.

This is not even thoughtful heresy. It barely arises above the level of nonsense.

Methinks they’ve been eating the yellow snow.

I have to disagree with commenters 1-6, supra. I like the Diocese of Western Michigan’s caveats. I adore them. Because of their infelicitous language, foggy bloviating and general incoherence I get to use my absolute favourite neologism.

I think, beyond all question, the Standing Committee of the Diocese of Western Michigan, its ‘Core Team of Missioners and Rectors’ (lovely people all, to be sure), the Diocesan Council and the General Convention Deputation have all beclowned themselves.

And in so doing have brought joy to this harried Atlanta attorney. Bless their hearts.

I have a theory!

Beclowned all right. You wonder if anyone realises how naff and ridiculous (not to mention batty AND dull) this makes the authors look. It isn’t even good heresy. Give me stoicism or Nestorianism or something with a bit of meat to it over this pap any day of the week.

“The word “trinity” is a symbol attempting to make sense of our experience of the one Godhead in history. No symbol, no language, however deep and dear its history and use, is beyond change and reformulation.”

Excuuuuse Me!!!

Andrewesman,
“Naff”  LOL

Because it is so absurd it is difficult to take seriously but this is where we should draw the line.  Forget about the covenant for now.  We need to start with a simple affirmation of the basics of what it means to be Christian.  At this point it does not even need to be the full creeds!

I propose that for a bishop to be recognized in the AC they must at a MINIMUM agree that Jesus physically rose from the dead and apart from accepting his EXCLUSIVE authority there is no way to be in fellowship with God.  Based on the sorts of reports mentioned here there are many priests and bishops who would get weeded out without even getting as far as how to interpret scripture.

I suppose the steps are for me to clarify my thoughts and then write my bishop.  My guess is that TEC and the AC being what they are would never agree to take a position on something even this basic but perhaps it might make any difference if they were known to not publicly agree with the most basic Christian doctrines?

Like, dude, the Trinity is the chick that Neo was hanging with in the Matrix movie.

What HAVE they been smok’in??  Can I get some?? (just kidding)

It’s amazing that these folks have the same Bible anywhere near them…

Someone who was baptized and confirmed actually wrote this?

What is unclear to me, after reading the whole, is two things:

1) How is this actually any sort of meaningful response to the St. Andrews Draft?

2) If there is an attempt here to affirm a vision of ministry based on the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, why is so much effort made herein as well to deconstruct that doctrine as it has been historically developed and received, all the while acting as if it is not, in fact, doing so?

In short, this sounds erudite, but isn’t. If I were to assign an essay question on a theology exam requiring a dialogical response to the St. Andrews Draft, I’m afraid one like this would receive rather low marks.

“God is Father. God is Son. God is Holy Spirit. God is Mother. God is Daughter. God is Redeemer. God is Sanctifier”

Don’t forget “Cosmic Muffin.”

Here is a list of the persons who endorsed this.  I searched their names on TEC site to check out their national leadership.
Core Team:
Jane Cisluycis—Educators/Ministries with Young People
Fran Gardner—Living Stones participant
Gin Mannisto
Manuel Padilla
Virginia Peacock
Charlie Piper
Rayford Ray
Kevin Thew Forrester—leadership, Living Stones Partnership
Anita WIngert

The Standing Committee
Linda Piper, President
Ellie Burgess
Marcia Franz
Hazel Satterly
Carol Clark
Sue Jamison
Sue Ray

DIOCESAN COUNCIL 2008
ex officio members
Bishop vacant
President, Standing Committee Linda Piper
Diocesan Treasurer Richard Graybill—Standing Commission for Small Congregations
President, ECW Linda Vollwerth
Chair, Commission on Ministry Manuel Padilla
Regional Representatives
Eastern Region Lu Swetz
North Central Region Dan Carpenter
South Central Region Bonnie Turner
Western Region Al Pieper
Members at Large
until 2008 Warren Maki
until 2009 Arlene Gordanier
until 2010 Fran Gardner
Secretary (non-voting member) RIse Thew Forrester

GENERAL CONVENTION DEPUTIES
Gail Baravetto
Ellen Burgess
Peg Lippart (co-chair)
(Alternates: non-ordained: Kay Payant; ordained - 1st Anita Wingert, 2nd Virginia Mannisto, 3rd Dick Graybill
Marion Luckey—UTO Sharing Dinner Chair
Patricia Micklow
Claudia Nadeau
Virginia Peacock
Rayford Ray (co-chair)

<blockquote.God is Father. God is Son. God is Holy Spirit. God is Mother. God is Daughter. God is Redeemer. God is Sanctifier. Are any of these theological expressions of the Trinity literally true? Of course not.</blockquote>

Of course not?  Are you freaking kidding me? 

Anybody, clerical or lay - right up to the PB - who subscribes to “of course not” yet holds a paid position in TEO is accepting pay under false circumstances.  And that’s fraud.  Maybe not legally, but it’s fraud. 

Anyone who purports to uphold this nonsense might want to reconsider why they bother to get up on Sunday morning, aside from going to see their friends, sing some songs, and feel good about themselves.

Wow. Just wow. I feel like I just got handed a new age discussion list from the local enlightenment store. Are all these folks living in the same commune up there? Amazing.

Masternav,

It’s not a commune in Da UP.  It’s the Second Week of Deer Camp and they’ve all seen Da Thirty Point Buck.  It messes wit one’s mental processes, ya know?

So sad. I mean, really; this is just so much jibberish.

      One of the remarkable discoveries of  
the interfaith dialogue of the late twentieth
and emerging twenty-first centuries is that  
the human experience of “trinity” is      
universal. This makes sense and reflects  
the truth that “all things come of God” and
bear the divine imprint. Creation, from    
quarks to galaxies, embodies the  
Trinitarian imprint.

So they get their Trinitarian theology from inter faith dialogue. Now the rest of the article makes sense. And there I was thinking that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity was, well, exclusively Christian.

So they send their legal wolves after Schofield, Duncan, and Cox, but do nothing about this.
Can somebody please get a comment from Dr. Schori and the TEC house of Bishops/Title IV committee/whatever is appropriate, and send this apostasy and an official TEC response to it to Archbishop Williams and the primates. Not even Rowan Williams could fail to act once made aware.

I posted a parody of these people using the Hare Krsna chant at MCJ, but on reflection decided it was unfair to the Krsna Conscious.

They may be deluded cultists, but their beliefs are more clearly describable and consistent than this.

The statement here that “coercion and intimidation play no role” in the perichoretic dance which this document holds up as a model for the church reminds me of an event in their sister diocese of Western Michigan with a church in South Haven - http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/7558/ .

#21 - WRONG.  Rowan wouldn’t touch this with a 10-meter cattle prod…  I think he’s smok’in the same stuff…

Jesus wept.

Well, no kidding that Creation reflects the Trinity—it’s called natural theology.  See Romans 1:19-20: 

19For what can be(AL) known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature,(AM) have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.” (This is from the ESV—the letters here are footnotes to the cross-references; I’m using http://www.biblegateway.com)

Christian community, too, should reflect the Trinity in so many ways.  But to write “Of course not” on Jesus’ sonship in constrast to the clear statement of Scripture that “God forth his Son, born of a woman” (and I think that whether this is translated “a woman” or “woman,” the point is the same) is rank heresy of the first order.  Yes, “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24), but Jesus was not some Casper the Friendly Ghost come to earth but a man with real flesh and blood who really died on a Cross for our sins.  Get Jesus wrong, and everything else is wrong.  That’s why the first centuries of the Christian church spent so much time on the question of the nature and person of Jesus. 

And yes, some things—like the Bible and creeds—are and should be “beyond change and reformulation.”  That’s why in some ways the more shocking vote at GC2003 was the rejection of the reaffirmation of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral.

Mouse—In the interest of accuracy, you got the wrong diocese: it’s NORTHERN Michigan. I’m in Western Michigan, and thank the Lord things haven’t gotten this bad (at least not yet!).
TJ—Prayers for you and all lay folk who are wading through this…

Aren’t they still looking for a bishop yet who will put up (or even elaborate) on their new theology—and live in the frozen North year-round? TJ, it’s up to you and the “many good, faithful people in this diocese, who believe the creeds and mean what they say in the general confession” to clean house and get yourselves a bishop who will proclaim the true Gospel, or you’ll end up with a purple-shirted clone of these sophomoric idiots.

#27, DavidSh. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Please accept my apologies.

My church went to the heretics and all I got was a lousy t-shirt

Thanks, DavidSh, I was just going to make the same post.

Someone please forward a copy of this document to +Cantuar.  Not that it’ll make much of a difference, but if he needs any further evidence of how Windsor and Covenant compliant even a small diocese from the rural U.S. is, this should do it.  We are a church threatened to being engulfed by heresy.  Full stop.

Will he notice—or care?

TJ, it’s up to you and the “many good, faithful people in this diocese, who believe the creeds and mean what they say in the general confession” to clean house and get yourselves a bishop who will proclaim the true Gospel, or you’ll end up with a purple-shirted clone of these sophomoric idiots.

Sue M.- I think we understand what we are called to do.  But understand, in no way do we constitute a majority, nor do we control any number of votes in diocesan convention. TEC has been out of control for 1/2 a century. It will take at least that long to put it right, if any of us stay that long.

Whether the diocese will continue as a diocese is somewhat up in the air.  There is a lot of “discernment” going on to determine the “shape” of the “episcopal ministry” for this diocese.  With 800 people in I don’t know how many congregations strewn across thousands of square miles of rural landscape- affording a bishop at all is one of the big questions.  I think it is quite likely that both this diocese and Eau Claire will be folded into adjoining jurisdictions.  Else they will almost certainly have to become missionary dioceses.  Let’s face it, there are single US Anglican parishes with similar membership and larger ASA (not sure if there are any left in TEC with ASA of 800, but several of the larger former TEC parishes are that size or larger, if memory serves).
  As to whether the Archbishop of Canterbury cares- yes, he does.  And as to whether he has been informed, well, perhaps not of the particular article, but in general, I think he has a pretty good idea. I doubt he has the time to personally read every bit of heresy that comes out of TEC nowadays- no one has that much time on their hands.
  My thanks to all for your prayers, and especially to the several clergy from the US and overseas who have been supportive to me personally since the September missive from the standing committee.  And, of course, also those good priests who given guidance and support since the day I was born.
  TJ

What does “perichoretic” mean? I have found references to it’s use in some recent scholarily theological books, but I can’t find it in any on-line dictionaries.

I can’t believe they used a word like that in a document that would be made public to their community. Even one who works at an institution that defines the academic ivory tower, I can not even guess what that word means. I can only assume what the pew setters think of this group when they attempt to understand this drivel.

I visit Sault Ste. Marie once a year, and the TEC church there is declining year to year; mostly elderly, dying off gradually. This is in a college town, but I have never seen any mention of work among the college kids, and there is no work among the Native Americans.

I just don’t understand what the leadership thinks it is doing?

dbaird, not sure this will help, but there is a wikipedia article on perichoresis here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perichoresis

oscewicee, thanks for that reference. I knew I had seen the term before, now I know where. It is used in the Eastern Orthodox traditions, but has not been common in western theological thought until recently, if I understand correctly. Thanks Again!

(But I still don’t think a common member of the diocese’s declining ASA has a clue to its meaning or origin.)

(dbaird, I don’t think so either!)

Some days I want to cry about the state of our church, but after reading this, I could only laugh.  Beclowned for sure.

Yoopers day got a strange sense humor eh?  But me I prefer ” Second Week Of Deer Camp” or ” Turdy Point Buck” to this.

Adding to the Yooper humor comments did any of these people serve as extras in “Moonlight In Escanaba”?  That would explain a lot.

On a more serious note. Is anyone else just plain ready to tear their hair out next time they read that portion of the Baptismal Covenant about dignity of persons, etc. etc. Mind you that is true. But it is just one part of the covenant and is not to be elevated to the point of adoration or treated as a new revelation.
We are Baptised into Christ and His Church. It is the grace that flows from that Baptism that enables us to regard all persons as being the face of Christ amongst us. It is that grace which gives us a heart that yearns for true peace. Making this a part of the Baptismal covenant was a major mistake. A mistake I am coming to believe more and more is heretical.

And frankly any Church that endorses abortion has a lot of nerve going on about the dignity of personhood

Stick a fork in ‘em, they’re done.