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The Camp Allen Statement: A Lost Opportunity (Clarification Added)

Saturday, September 23, 2006 • 8:25 am

The lesson of the Camp Allen debacle is that in the battle for orthodoxy it is a mistake to seek a superficial consensus with those whose fear of institutional dissolution or divorce from Canterbury is greater than their zeal for the Faith of the Apostles. Such alliances may broaden the coalition but they also weaken its resolve and hinder its success.
Note: I have changed the title from "A Gift Squandered and Allies Rebuffed" to the present "A Lost Opportunity". I am doing this for two reasons. First, it was written when I believed, based on a report from Greg Griffith, that all the Windsor bishops had been given knowledge of the contents of the Kigali Communique prior to the release of the Camp Allen Statement. It turns out that some had this knowledge, but not all. Second, the language was intended to point to the resulting "effect" of the Camp Allen statement, not the motives of the signers. But for some readers, the wording seemed to impugn persons and motives rather than actions and effects. As I said, that was not my intent, but I am removing it anyway so as not to cause offense. The new title continues to reflect my analysis below. Matt



This is one of the few times in the last year that I cannot offer an optimistic assessment for the orthodox cause in North America.

I am quite persuaded that the meeting at Camp Allen has done great harm. The immediate cause is some information I received last night that confirmed an educated guess I had made earlier in the day. But more about that later.

If you followed this thread yesterday afternoon, then you know that I was, from the beginning, not a fan of the Camp Allen statement.

There were two reasons.

First the Camp Allen Statement represents nothing substantially new when compared to previous letters/statements of the Windsor Bishops. In fact, compared to the letter the group of Windsor bishops wrote to the Archbishop of Canterbury in 2005 following the March House of Bishops meeting, the Camp Allen Statement is a significant step back.

Compare this key section from the 2005 letter in which the assembled bishops affirm Lambeth 1.10 and 2. boldly state that the differences between Windsor bishops and the rest of the church are irreconcilable:

As bishops, we take with utmost seriousness the vows made at our consecration. We consider it a sacred responsibility “to guard the faith, unity, and discipline of the Church.” Those within ECUSA who continue to act in opposition to the normative teachings of the Anglican Communion, expressed in resolution 1.10 of the 1998 Lambeth conference, the Windsor Report, and the , make healing and reconciliation within ECUSA and thePrimates’ Communique communion all the more difficult.

At the recent meeting of our House of Bishops, several of us spoke with Bishop Griswold concerning what we believe to be “irreconcilable differences” in the life of our Church. His response was to note the language of “irreconcilable differences” is “faithless.” We believe, however, it is precisely contradictory, mutually exclusive positions regarding essential matters of faith and practice dividing our Church and threatening the unity and mission of the Anglican Communion. The report of the Theology Committee of the House of Bishops, made prior to the General Convention 2003, noted there exists within our Church mutually exclusive theological positions on the matter of homosexual practice. This has not changed and has become even more apparent over these past 18 months.


With this section from the Camp Allen Statement in which the assembled bishops:

1. affirm the Windsor Report and Lambeth 1.10

but

2. a) drop the “irreconcilable differences” language in favor of “recognizing” that both compliant and non-compliant parishes need a “safe place” and that “some” dioceses need APO, and b) step back from any suggestion that they, as a group, want or need an alternative ecclesial structure c) pledge to work within the structures of the Episcopal Church with their Episcopal “collegues”

The Windsor Report properly belongs within the larger framework of Anglican teaching, as expressed, not least, in successive Lambeth Conferences, including the resolutions of Lambeth 1998 (among which is Resolution 1.10). We understand this to be the mind of the Communion for teaching and discipline.

We recognize that many congregations within The Episcopal Church need a safe space within which to live out the integrity of their faith in compliance with the Windsor Report. We also recognize that there are some congregations that do not accept the provisions of the Windsor Report. We pledge ourselves to work with our Episcopal colleagues to care for all God’s people in our dioceses.

Within our group are needs for various levels of response to the conflicts in the church. While here we have worked diligently to achieve unity across these lines. We recognize the need of some among us for an alternative primatial relationship. This recognition does not weaken our fundamental theological and ecclesial commitments. Rather, our unity has strengthened them, and for this we thank God.”


Those on various comment threads suggesting this statement represents a great first step for this group are dead wrong. This is a devastating step back.

I did not have high hopes for this meeting, but I did, at the very least, have an expectation that the Windsor bishops would not move away from their originally strong position with regard to non-compliant dioceses.

If only they had kept the “irreconcilable differences” language. But they did not and because they did not there will likely be disastrous consequences.

Why?

This is where the second reason for my original disappointment comes to the fore.

The Kigali Communique was posted on the Global South Anglican website at around 11:15am Eastern Time. It was put up on Stand Firm and titusonenine at 11:19am (these original post-times have changed on the site because the postings have been updated)

The Communique is a remarkable document that unites both “Communion” and “Federal” conservative/orthodox primates. With one voice they call for a separate ecclesial structure in the United States:

We are convinced that the time has now come to take initial steps towards the formation of what will be recognized as a separate ecclesiastical structure of the Anglican Communion in the USA. We have asked the Global South Steering Committee to develop such a proposal in consultation with the appropriate instruments of unity of the Communion. We understand the serious implications of this determination. We believe that we would be failing in our apostolic witness if we do not make this provision for those who hold firmly to a commitment to historic Anglican faith.


This is not a call for a church within the body that currently calls itself the Episcopal Church, but for a distinctly separate entity.

They even ask the Archbishop of Canterbury to invite an American bishop, chosen by the orthodox dioceses and parishes in the United States, to attend and participate in the February primates meeting.

The Kigali Statement essentially calls for a new Anglican province in North American with a new primatial head.

These requests, made by a united block of primates representing the majority of Anglican Communion provinces, place a great deal of pressure on Canterbury.

But the force of the Global South appeal was rooted in the expressed need of the orthodox minority in the Episcopal Church. This need was articulated in the Windsor Bishop’s March 2005 letter to the Archbishop of Canterbury and most recently in the Network dioceses appeal for APO following GC2006.

This is where the timing of the statements becomes crucial. My fear yesterday was that the Camp Allen bishops had read and digested the Kigali Communiqué before releasing their own statement later in the afternoon. In that case the Camp Allen statement would represent something of a rejection of or distancing from the Global South requests.

My fear was based on rumors I had heard earlier in the day that some key people in the continental United States possessed copies of the Communiqué prior to its posting on the Global South website at 11:15am EST. I reasoned that if these key people had it, the bishops must have had it.

I voiced this concern on this titusonenine thread. Soon afterwards, I received news from someone in Africa who was unaware of any circulation of the Communique prior to its release. I breathed a slight sigh of relief and mentioned noted this on the titusonenine thread linked above.

Then came the call.

As Greg reported last night, Stand Firm has learned that the Kigali Communiqué was in fact circulated at the Camp Allen meeting prior to the release of Camp Allen Statement.1

That means that the bishops there knew very well what sort of structure the primates were willing to promote and establish. They knew it and they rejected it. Instead they proposed to:

“work with our Episcopal colleagues to care for all God’s people in our dioceses.”


The Camp Allen bishops, together, stepped back from any suggestion that such a structure is necessary and in so doing they both damaged the cause of orthodoxy in North America and weakened the position of their Global South allies prior to the meeting of the primates in February.

While recognizing that some feel the need for some form of APO, the Camp Allen group, as a whole, plans to move forward within the structures of the Episcopal Church as it is currently constituted with no hint whatsoever of “irreconcilable differences”.

The Camp Allen Statement sucks the force and weight out of the Kigali Communiqué requests and significantly reduces any pressure the Archbishop of Canterbury might have felt to provide structural relief for North American orthodox Anglican parishes and dioceses.

In February, the Archbishop of Canterbury need only ask the Global South, “Why should I recognize or establish a structure for which the Windsor Compliant bishops have not asked?”

The Camp Allen Statement takes political power and momentum away from the Global South and gives it to 815.

The best hope now for a North American orthodox Anglican body tied to Canterbury lies solely with the Network and various APO requests.

But it will require the Network bishops to step forward and affirm the Kigali Communiqué in full and reassert, strongly, often, and without a hint of compromise, the need for a separate structure that includes both the APO dioceses and Network parishes in non-Network dioceses.

The lesson of the Camp Allen debacle is that in the battle for orthodoxy it is a mistake to seek a superficial consensus with those whose fear of institutional dissolution or divorce from Canterbury is greater than their zeal for the Faith of the Apostles. Such alliances may broaden the coalition but they also weaken its resolve and hinder its success.

1UPDATE from Greg Griffith: A clarification: In my report that Matt referenced above he notes that I used the word "circulated." I used that word as I think most lay people understand it to mean: That the information was known by some bishops at the meeting and passed on to other bishops. I am now told that when bishops use the word "circulated" in reference to something like this, what they mean is that a paper copy is placed in their hands with the knowledge, approval, and imprimatur of the chair. That is not the case, nor was it exactly the information I received. A summary of what was expected to be released from Kigali, which turned out to be accurate, was provided to some bishops by other means, several hours before the Camp Allen statement was released. Stand Firm sincerely regrets and takes full responsibility for this misunderstanding.


And so do I. Some bishops knew the substance of the Kigali Communique. Others did not.

One of my assertions, namely that the Camp Allen bishops, as a body, essentially rejected the Kigali Communique is not true because not all knew the substance of it.

I apologize and accept full responsibility for the contents of this article.

Matt+

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Comments:

A weakening of knees, a failure of will, a failure of leadership…God help us…

[1] Posted by ElaineF. on 09-24-2006 at 08:14 AM • top

I can appreciate the concern that Camp Allen bishops made a less than anticipated exhilarating statement.  However, I do not look at Camp Allen as being the voice of orthodox Anglicans in America.  That voice is heard in the statements which come from the ACNCamp Allen is NOT the orthodox voice.  It is A voice which contains many orthodox views.  The statement is one which reflects those ideas which can be supported by the broadest group (allbeit small) willing to pen their names to a statement.  This is not a blow to anything.  If, however, it had come from ACN, I think Matt’s assessment might have greater merit.

[2] Posted by richardc on 09-24-2006 at 08:16 AM • top

The Kigali Communique is lost to arrogance…God is quiet and will never deceive us with threatening words of exclusion and hate.

[3] Posted by Leonardo Ricardo on 09-24-2006 at 08:37 AM • top

For myself,I can’t help but think of 2 Kings 13:14-19,when Israel was locked in battle with its oppressors and the king and the prophet were in counsel,the prophet told the king to strike the ground with the arrows and the king struck the ground only three times and the deliverance was only temporary and the oppressors came back and bound Israel again because the king didn’t go as far as the prophet desired.
It’s my prayer that God shows His grace and compassion in spite of the lack of needed steps not taken.I’m just afraid that the orthodox in the Episcopal church will see more oppression until they become free.

[4] Posted by paddy on 09-24-2006 at 08:47 AM • top

Matt+
Having read all the posts from yesterday and your thoughts from this morning, I believe that the Camp Allen statement is meant to unify a group of bishops who have previously not been unified. This is a good first step. APO request is still moving forward, the Kigali statement moves us forward, +Duncan is going to continue to press on, +Iker as well and the Network Bishops as well.
Could we perhaps read “work with our Episcopal colleagues to care for all God’s people in our dioceses” as those Episcopal colleagues gathered at Camp Allen and any other Bishops who want to sign on to be with us as we go forward? Or is that too naive, too optimistic?
Here in San Diego, Bishop Mathes has stated that he believes the ACN to be a schismatic group, perhaps this Camp Allen statement is meant to announce what in principle we support, a “Catholic” identity.
I agree, it is “A voice”, trying to affirm our desire to bring along as many as want to come with the orthodox and the ACN. I frankly would have been surprised if the Windsor compliant bishops had come out with a much stronger statement! Let us all be patient this weekend and wait for further reflections from our leaders, the ACN Bishops.

[5] Posted by Semperfipadre on 09-24-2006 at 08:54 AM • top

richardc
Camp Allen is NOT the orthodox voice.  It is A voice which contains many orthodox views.  The statement is one which reflects those ideas which can be supported by the broadest group (allbeit small) willing to pen their names to a statement.”
rc, isn’t this a good outcome or rather the best outcome that could reasonably have been hoped for?  Those signatures represent significant moves away from 815 et al.  Do you think “A voice” weakens “The Voice?  I’m not sure whether you see ‘many orthodox’ views as a negative thing.

[6] Posted by Bill C on 09-24-2006 at 09:02 AM • top

Remember that representatives of the ABC were at Camp Allen.  Imo, the Camp Allen statement is crafted to put the Windsor bishops in the ABC’s camp rather than the GS camp - the struggle being mainly between the ABC and the GS about how to deal with the US.  I pray that the ABC moves toward the GS position and the Windsor bishops move with him.  This all goes back to the reason for the NY meeting.  The ABC wants a compromise that keeps both parties at the table with at least the illusion of unity.  In my reading of the GS statement I detect some frustration with the orthodox American bishops. 
My paraphrase the GS communique:
We have a lot of important issues and we have taken real sacrifices in time and by not accepting money from 815 because this is an important faith issue.  It is about time you do the same and break away from 815 into a separate ecclesiastical structure.  If not, we will create one for you and you can be bishops of empty dioceses.

To quote from Pittsburgh:
“Are you ECUSA or are you Network?”

And to the ABC (from the Road to Lambeth):
Hey we’re not going to Lambeth with 815, period.

Time is running out for these “leaders” to make the bold moves - it is a real possibility that the followers will pass them by.

[7] Posted by BillK on 09-24-2006 at 09:03 AM • top

To my knowledge no one has mentioned the mission that Bishop N.T. Wright had in attending the Camp Allen meeting.  I wonder what effect he had on the statement that was crafted.  (remember all the squishy language in the Windsor report “inviting” people to “withdraw themselves” from the functions of the Communion?)  If he was in some way representing Canterbury, there is a distinct possibility that he wanted to diffuse the clarity and strength of the Kigali Communique (which of course puts a great deal of pressure on Canterbury).  And if that was the case, Matt+, you are absolutely right on the money that this meeting was a set back for the cause of orthodoxy in the US.

We need to hear from the Network Bishops who were present about why they signed this statement, given the Kigali Communique. They are my leaders and i am thankful and grateful for the true Gospel witness they have provided for the past several years. I pray for them often with a thankful heart for what they are doing.  I know they are guided by the same thing that is guiding the Global South Archbishops, hearts souls and minds given over to their Savior and Lord Jesus Christ and lived in submission to His wisdom and truth.

I do not believe they would knowingly set back the cause to which they have steadfastly given their lives during the past three years.  There has to be more to the story.

[8] Posted by BettyLee Payne on 09-24-2006 at 09:10 AM • top

I agree with “Semperfipadre,” and I rejoiced in the Camp Allen statement.  It makes the doctrinal points that were shunned in GC 2006, it doubles the number of Bishops in the orthodox camp, and it was in communication with the ABC.  It is not at odds with the GS announcement but just on a slightly different timeline.  I did not expect this to be an action paper but think it is very effective as a statement of principles that others can still sign.  I credit the orthodox Bishops with discretion, good counsel, and inspiration.  February has long been named by the ABC and others as the time for the decisive action, and all of this week’s developments are moving forward toward that time.

[9] Posted by Paula on 09-24-2006 at 09:19 AM • top

Leonardo Ricardo :

Hmm…....... waiting for supporting information for this statement.  It is fine to have opinions - however, informed opinions make the basis of rational debate…

Matt -

Agree with you entirely.  Just makes me glad our parish is under a African bishop now instead of ECUSA.  Before we waited long for these meetings with high hopes only to be disappointed and disheartened.  Now we get to be free from all of the duplicity and double-speak.

My only concern is the silence of the Network over this… why haven’t they come out and at least clarified THEIR position?  That is ODD.

[10] Posted by Eclipse on 09-24-2006 at 09:25 AM • top

Actually, the only doctrinal points the statement makes were already made way back in March of 2005. This is nothing new or different from that previous statement, and, as I demonstrated in the article, something of a step back. It is not a breakthrough. At best it is a weakened but more “inclusive” version of the Windsor bishops’ past position. This is a pig no matter how much makeup we slap on it.

[11] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-24-2006 at 09:40 AM • top

Matt,
You bury yourself deeper with your reference to the Camp Allen Statement as a pig.  Don’t let the sun go down on your anger and bitterness.  I can only suspect that you are at the point of jumping in with the Presbyterians as you have previously alluded to and really don’t care about the consequences of your actions.  Let go.  What is your anchor - a statement by the Camp Allen bishops or the Righteous Hand of God in this crisis matter?

Peace be with your soul, beloved brother

[12] Posted by richardc on 09-24-2006 at 09:56 AM • top

Although I am a Roistering Episcopal Adventurer, I am trained as an attorney, and have read the Camp Allen Statement with an attorney’s viewpoint. 
What disturbs me is the statement: “It is our intention to offer a faithful and dynamic witness WITHIN THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH.”
All the Network Bishops signed this letter, Bishops Iker, Duncan, Howe, the lot of them, and all of them committed to working and maintaining their witness WITHIN THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH.  This is very deliberate language, perhaps negotiated with the non-Network bishops. 
After GC2003 and GC2006, after the election of ++Katharine, after everything, the Network bishops have made this pledge. 
If anyone of them – from now til the whenever he lays down his crozier – takes a step toward a separate North American Anglican structure, toward the alternatives suggested in the Kigali Communique, this statement will be flung back at them, as illustrative of their deceit and hypocrisy, that they will sign anything or say anything – flung back not only by revisionist bishops and bloggers but also by their fellow signatories.  And there seems to be no wiggle room here. This is their pledge, as if it were a rebuttal of Kigali
It is not my pledge, however.

[13] Posted by Dick Mitchell on 09-24-2006 at 09:56 AM • top

It seems to me that a mountain is being made out of a molehill here.  If Camp Allen is a step backward then why did the network bishops sign it?  The ABC does not need “pressure” from the GS, he needs clarity from the Windsor Bishops and if anyone thought that the Windsor Bishops, in one meeting, were going to be able to lay out a comprehensive plan for the road ahead…well then I think those were unrealistic expectations.  Furthermore, if the Windsor Bishops lay out only half a plan, then they accomplish little while simultaneously opening themselves up to lawsuits and general rancour from 815.  It is far better to do this carefully and intentionally, with all the ducks in a row.  As much as some would like quick action, it is worth remembering that the best surgeon’s are not quick, they are careful.  Furthermore, although I appreciate the passion of the GS, they’re tenor in addressing the ABC is a bit shrill, and therefore unhelpful.  The ABC is the head of the Anglican Communion, and should be treated with more respect and defferance.

[14] Posted by Nyssa on 09-24-2006 at 09:59 AM • top

richardc: I’m not angry at all. I’m from Texas. That is a pretty common colloquialism. Thank you for your concern.

[15] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-24-2006 at 10:07 AM • top

“How to deal with the US…”  Yes that’s the rub.  How many presiding bishops do we yearn for ABC to create?  If the chickens cannot find one and only one coupe, then two might be created, but two had better be the end of this, and there doesn’t seem to be any agreement on what the second one will hold.  Nobody wants a temporary solution, so until there’s agreement among the orthodox, there should not be any solution.

[16] Posted by terebinth on 09-24-2006 at 10:11 AM • top

I have not heard the Network Bishops say they (or the GS Bishops) were creating a separate American Anglican Province, as much as we might like that to occur. For now, they have indicated that they were “enduring” Ecusa, the rightful expression of an orthodox Anglican faith in America. If down the road, the only path is the creation of an separate legal corporate entity away from the existing TEC, then so be it, but for now, it seems the ACN/Windsor compliant Bishops are trying to avoid, as many have indicated in previous postings, a huge legal battle, abandoment of diocesan sees and such trouble as +Griswold and Mrs. Schori can conceive for them. Again this is a step forward towards bringing more bishops along. Yes, the 2005 statements do seem stronger and standing alongside the Kigali statement the CA statement looks a little weak, but it is in the meeting of these Bishops together and there pledge to work together that may be the true gift we need to focus on. The time may come soon for that new legal entity to come, but perhaps this is the one of the steps in the legal evidence that needs to be created for that Orthodox Episcopal Anglican presence in America.

[17] Posted by Semperfipadre on 09-24-2006 at 10:25 AM • top

“I have not heard the Network Bishops say they (or the GS Bishops) were creating a separate American Anglican Province, as much as we might like that to occur.”

semperfipadre: that is precisely what they have said they have wanted in just about every press release and public speech since the ACN conference this year. In fact, it is pretty apparent in their most recent statment on the Kigali Communique

[18] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-24-2006 at 10:29 AM • top

Matt+
You are far more aware of statements and press releases than I am. But first being recognized as the true “Anglican” church and second, the legal corporate entity called ECCUSA or TEC or whatever is what seems to me is what +Duncan and the others are after, later the legal declaration for who really then owns the assets. Which is a battle I think we will loose anyway, thus we will have to eventually legally separate, thus the creation of the ACN pension plan as a first step for that eventual split.

[19] Posted by Semperfipadre on 09-24-2006 at 10:39 AM • top

I think you may be saying that they have not asked for a parallel province and you are right. They have asked for a distinct orthodox entity, enduring ecusa, whether replacing or standing for a time alongside innovating ecusa. In any case it is a seperate provincial structure from 815

[20] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-24-2006 at 10:43 AM • top

The only thing I have concluded from the Camp Allen letter is that it sheds no light whatsoever on what really went on there.  It has less substantive content than the invitation +Wimberly sent out announcing the meeting.  This makes me slightly less pessimistic than Fr Matt since something had to happen there other than drafting this letter, which should have taken no more than 15 minutes including time for coffee.  Whatever happened has been disclosed on a “need to know” basis and the rest of us clearly don’t need to know.

[21] Posted by wildfire on 09-24-2006 at 10:44 AM • top

I see a lot of this as much ado about nothing. CA did not owe anyone an action plan. All they did was put the HoB on notice that they, as Diocesans, clearly accept the Windsor report, and don’t choose to “walk apart” come February. The language about doing it all within ECUSA is to my thinking brilliant, since it positions those who are deemed to be walking apart to be schismatic and no longer recognized as part of the AC and ergo in violation of their Constitution. I think Kigali overstepped and made a strategic error in suggesting a new entity. Sweeping out the rotted parts of the existing entity is more attractive to me.

[22] Posted by Gulfstream on 09-24-2006 at 10:49 AM • top

Matt:  I am a big fan, but I respectfully suggest that your expectations for Camp Allen may have been unrealistic.  I hope that you’ll calm down and wait for ++Rowan to publicly respond.  A lot of folks count on your reasoned analysis during this time of trouble.

[23] Posted by An Anxious Anglican on 09-24-2006 at 11:12 AM • top

Guys,
“I hope that you’ll calm down”
Really, I’m calm. I promise. You can check my pulse. I just calmly and rationally and reasonably think this was a big mistake. I hope I am wrong and I may be, but I’m not getting a case of the vapors. Really.

[24] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-24-2006 at 11:14 AM • top

Matt+
I think the Bishops have a good strategy.  By playing the meeting very low key they seem to be saying we are not a party to making threats as are the Libs.  They want to let the ABC make a reasoned decision and then they will act!

[25] Posted by tom on 09-24-2006 at 11:26 AM • top

Matt—I’m not sure what to make of the Camp Allen communique, but I agree it could have been worded more artfully to harmonize with Kigali.  Maybe this is a variation on the “good cop, bad cop” routine in dealing with the ABC.  Perhaps the thinking of the Camp Allen participants was to let the GS get out in front on this, and then follow with a toned down approach, but with the ultimate objective being the same.  I am heartened by the fact that Howard reportedly bailed out after less than 24 hours, yet Iker, Stanton, et al. hung in there.  Based on Iker’s comments at the end of the New York session, he isn’t going to be waltzed around by TEC any more.  He’s ready to lock and load.  I suspect many of the others at Camp Allen share that view.  Thus there may be reason for optimism.  I think all the players on both sides now realize that re-alignment is coming, it’s just a matter of when and what form it will take.

[26] Posted by William R. Hurt on 09-24-2006 at 12:07 PM • top

Matt, your analysis is 100% correct.
For the poster who said: “I believe that the Camp Allen statement is meant to unify a group of bishops who have previously not been unified”, I would respond, unify them for what expense? At the expense of a statement that represents a pledge to stay in TEC? Because that is what this is. Most of the posters that are defending the Camp Allen statement are saying essentially that the Network signatories didnt mean what they said. Those that made the tactical decision to sign this document as part of a compromise made a huge mistake, one that will eventually require a “clarifying” (translated contradicting ) statement to be later issued by the Network Bishops in an effort to salvage the situation.  Perhaps the best strategy at this point for the Network Bishops is to simply admit the statement was just that—a mistake.
The Global South Bishops, and the cause of Christ they so boldly expouse, deserve more from all of us.
Last week, posters were critisizing Plano for leaving when they did, suggesting that if they just stayed a while longer they could leave as part of a larger organized exodus of Windsor Dioceses.  The results of Camp Allen demonstrate the wisdom of their decision.

[27] Posted by Going Home on 09-24-2006 at 12:32 PM • top

I think it may be important to pause here and reflect precisely what this statement doesn’t say. This is a document written out of a particular culture and while we may wish it was a different culture, as those of us who have walked in cultures different from the ones we know and prefer, it is probably helpful to take a look at this document from within the culture that it comes from.  We may wish it were different (as I wish the Washington DC culture was not so interested in what you do over who you are), but I think we should be careful.  What we have in common with our progressive friends is that we both like things to be clear (it may be no accident that many progressives come from fundamentalist background where clarity is seldom an issue - they’ve just exchanged one kind of clarity for another).  But that is not what we have in the culture of Episcopal bishops and again, we may lament this (and perhaps rightly so), but we should be careful and not make the same mistake as some do as equating what is said here with how it is said.

What I think is important here (and I write about this at BabyBlueOnline this morning in more detail) is what is not said, rather than what is said.  I’ve been reading our progressive friends blogs - including those who are in positions of authority in The Episcopal Church and I think we can safely say that from their point of view structures equals unity.  If you are not in the structure, you are schismatic (or worse).  As Bishop Minns has said recently, the canons have replaced the common faith to enforce this loyalty to the structures of the church, rather than to the church itself.  This letter is opposed to that view.  In fact, it takes the opposite view.  It states clearly that it is possible for there to be creation of a safe space (i.e., new structure) with a new presiding bishop and still be in the church.  It is the orthodox Christian faith that holds us together - and our opposition to heretical innovations - that brings unity.  Not allegiance to structures.  I think this is quite profound and taken along side the Communique (which offers a way to do it) frankly amazing. 

Again, the Windsor Bishops could have taken the time to do as the leadership of the Episcopal Church has done (through ENS and their friendly blogs) to denounce Archbishop Akinola and the Global South primates for their work with Anglican Christians in North America.  But they don’t do this - and this has caused great agitation amongst those same 815 supporters.  That should be a clue as to why this letter is a welcomed addition in this journey toward renewal of Anglican Christianity in North America.

bb
BabyBlueOnline.org
(who noticed that Bishop Peter Lee was not one of the signatures).

[28] Posted by BabyBlue on 09-24-2006 at 01:12 PM • top

Father Kennedy a Texan?  Well I’ll be.

[29] Posted by MarkBrown on 09-24-2006 at 01:29 PM • top

Irregardless of the clarifications by Greg and Matt, I hear no apology - merely justification i.e. damage control.  Guys, you expected more from the CA statement.  Similarly, we expected more in the way of an apology from you.  Dismayed it hasn’t happened.

[30] Posted by richardc on 09-24-2006 at 01:42 PM • top

richardc

Is an apology needed?  I think they properly clarified the situation.  The information was known to some bishops but not ALL.  However, the information was out there at Camp Allen.  I suspect, just like the rest of us, they had access to computers et al. at Camp Allen… if someone wanted to know what was going on in Africa, I think they could have found out. 

Therefore, clarifying the information was important - however completely retracting it would be inappropriate.

Still, regardless, the statement from the bishops was still a pale response to what’s going on in the Communion.  It’s like watching the Titanic go down and putting out a telagraph message that ‘we are having problems and might need help some time in the near future, as long as it’s OK with the Dublin Shipping Company’.

[31] Posted by Eclipse on 09-24-2006 at 01:52 PM • top

richardc:

” I hear no apology - merely justification i.e. damage control”

How does this square with what I wrote above?
“I apologise and accept full responsibility”

[32] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-24-2006 at 01:53 PM • top

The point of the article is that the weakness of the statement puts the GS squanders the gift of Kigali. That some bishops knew of Kigali’s contents makes matters worse. The point still stands, though as I said, I do apologise and take responsbility for the report that all bishops knew when only some of them did.

That is why it has not been pulled.

[33] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-24-2006 at 02:00 PM • top

Yes, Eclipse.  An apology is required.  The character and motivations of at least some of our respected bishops has been called into question.  The premise of the “fact producing” clarification is that some knowingly engaged in signing a statement which undermines the Kigali communique and therefore, undermines the efforts and desires of so many expectant orthodox priests, and parishoners.  That implication says they sold us out.  The CA statement was referred to derogatorily despite the Texan colloquialism.  These godly men have been judged as having squandered their giftings.  And you ask if an apology necessary?  I would suggest the orthodox answer to your question involves repentance, sackcloth and ashes, but then I might get stoned for such a suggestion.

[34] Posted by richardc on 09-24-2006 at 02:04 PM • top

Whoa, Richardc, no one impugned anyone’s character.

[35] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-24-2006 at 02:05 PM • top

Matt+,

Yes and no.  I acknowledge your statement of accepting full responsibility.  I would respectfully submit that the apology and submission is for less than what the situation requires.  Your apology is for not having had the facts right.  I believe a more appropriate apology is for the characterization of these men in the implications of the article as a whole.  The difference may be subtle but important.  Does this make ring true with anyone else?

[36] Posted by richardc on 09-24-2006 at 02:08 PM • top

Matt+,

Have I read you wrong?  The clarification you and Greg make is that not all the bishops squandered the gift of Kingali.  It was squandered by only those who had knowledge of it.  One can only surmise from such a clarification that their number must have been large enough to have influenced the final draft of the CA statement.  I can see no other conclusion from your clarification.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

[37] Posted by richardc on 09-24-2006 at 02:13 PM • top

” believe a more appropriate apology is for the characterization of these men in the implications of the article as a whole.”

The statement placed the GS in a very difficult place and it will, IMO, do great damage to the cause. It was a mistake and a squandered opportunity. That is not a moral judgement. I would not presume to do that. I think they made a tactical/strategic mistake that will lead to very serious consequenses. They “squandered” a gift in the same way that a general may not take advantage of an opportunity on the battlefield. This has nothing to do with the general’s moral character.

[38] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-24-2006 at 02:21 PM • top

Richardc:

You’re mighty legalistic.  Where’d you pick that up?

Mark Brown
San Angelo, Texas
September 23, 2006

[39] Posted by MarkBrown on 09-24-2006 at 02:24 PM • top

Mark
Legalistic?  How so?

[40] Posted by richardc on 09-24-2006 at 02:30 PM • top

Fr. Matt Kennedy wrote:

The Camp Allen Statement takes political power and momentum away from the Global South and gives it to 815.

I don’t agree with this at all.  Both statements stand on their own merits and are intended for specific audiences in specific time frames.

The Global South statement is clearly the greater of the two, with a far more comprehensive scope, both in time and place.  It recognizes an oppressed and distressed orthodox minority within the Episcopal Church, and looks toward long-range solutions to the problems (both internal and in the Anglican Communion) created by the Episcopal Church.  The solutions assume that the Episcopal Church will not change.

The solutions are external to the Episcopal Church and do not require its cooperation.  The audience of the Global South statement is the whole world.

The Camp Allen statement has a tiny little scope and is simply an affirmation of a commitment to the Anglican Communion’s process to restore the Episcopal Church.  It does not really address anything outside the Episcopal Church, except for the desire of these bishops to remain in communion with Canterbury, and an acknowledgement that the General Convention 2006 did not adequately address the requests of the Windsor Report.

The intended audience is only the House of Bishops in the Episcopal Church.  In many ways, it is specifically designed to appeal to institutional reappraisers, in an effort to effect change in the Episcopal Church from within.  It represents a “grassroots” movement within the House of Bishops.

The Camp Allen statement is more of an internal political statement within the Episcopal Church.

The two statements are hardly comparable, and neither takes anything away from or gives anything to the other.

I am sure that 815 will be able to safely ignore the Camp Allen statement.  If it ignores the Kigali statemnt, it further imperils its already-impaired relationships in the Anglican Communion.  The ABC will certainly take notice of the Kigali statement.

It doesn’t matter what 815 thinks of either statement.  What clearly matters is what alternative structures the Global South or Anglican Communion set up and how quickly it is done.  The ABC has been dragging his feet for the past 3 years, and the Global South has had enough of foot-dragging.

[41] Posted by Randy Muller on 09-24-2006 at 02:36 PM • top

This is my first time posting.  So first hi y’all I am from the Diocese of Texas.  I have noticed how upset some are about the Camp Allen statement and I would like to give a little Wimberly perspective.  First of all you have to ask yourself why Bishop Wimberly called the meeting.  This man is the most calm, slow to move man you have ever known. I have read his writings, all of them.  The reason he called this meeting is because he does not want the U.S. church going with Africa he wants it to go with the AC.  In other words rather than split the American church in three parts (revisionist, African, Williams) he wants it to be in 2 parts (revisionist and Williams).  That is what he got.  He also wants to unite all the people from center-right to far right together.  He got that, too.  Now, I understand that those people that have been working with the Bishops of the Global South may not feel comfortable with that solution.  Some may feel it is a slap in the face to the GS.  But, the fact is the head of the Anglican Communion is in Great Britain not in Africa.  Africa may someday break off from the Anglican Communion, but that is not true now.  We can never forget the sacrifices our brothers and sisters in the Global South made for us when we were being “hung out to dry”.  But, if we are going to have a true Anglican Communion we have to appeal to the Archbishop.

By the way, about Camp Allen.  I have been there.  Getting cell phones to work, let alone a computer is not always easy.  Besides, if I had been Wimberly I would have confiscated all cell phone, computers and blackberries before they could come to the meeting.  Considering just how little info got out, I wouldn’t be surprised if he did.


N.

[42] Posted by nette on 09-24-2006 at 02:54 PM • top

I have to admit that I have not read every comment on this page.  However, from what I have read, I recall how the bishop for the New York meeting was heckled for his idea that blogging be held up for a month or so while the meetings of September (New York, Kigali, and Camp Allen) played out.  I think his words could have been chosen better and his aim could have been better.  However, seeing what has happened above and knowing the good faith of my non-Network bishop, MacPherson, and his frustration with the speed, the inaccuracies and the immediate emotion of the internet, I can understand both bishops better now. 

We might all need an editor, a person who is not cut out of the exact same cloth as ourselves, to read our materials when we can see the emotion flowing out of our writings.  Perhaps, then we can listen to counsel, consider prayer, not worry about being the first one published, and not worry about a little time passing. 

Yesterday, on another thread, I predicted that the Camp Allen group would try to work together but would by necessity have to wait for final solutions until after the February meeting when the die will be officially cast and both network and Windsor bishops could be heralded as the official Anglican church in the USA.  Thus, I am not unhappy.  I believe God is working in his way bringing the orthodox here, plus the GS together, for a meeting with the ABC in February and an even more orthodox AC emerging than would have happened if it had occurred before. 

During this time we are given, I believe other bishops who as the diocesan shephards have been rightfully concerned about the financial positions of their dioceses, their clergy and their parishes if we, the orthodox, struck out on our own and TEC kept all the assets (insurance assets, pension assets, physical assets such as 815, and,importantly, the name as the official Anglican representative in the US).  Now with the coalescing of the parts, they and we can feel the tectonic shift in favor of the orthodox here (you have to admit we were in a much more minority position 6 months ago) and move more broadly to take up our yoke and follow Him, while TEC can go down its heterodoxic path not knowing what hit them.

[43] Posted by khawk858 on 09-24-2006 at 06:39 PM • top

In my last comment above, in its last paragraph, I meant to add to the end of the first sentence:  “can now join in our crusade.”  Yes, a tip of the hat goes to the play, “Les Miserables.”  Can’t you hear the drums playing, the bullets whistling, and see us jumping on our barricade for the right causes, such as Biblical authority, credal belief, and apostolic succession.  I am tying my scarf around my head even as I type this missive.

[44] Posted by khawk858 on 09-24-2006 at 06:48 PM • top

KHawk, there were, at most 5 or 6 non-network so called Windsor Bishops for which there was real hope. There was never any realistic expectation that any of the rest would turn 180 degrees and embrace a seperation.  When the dust settles, I don’t expect one, much less five or six, to gain the courage that they have lacked for the last three years. Yes, I agree with you that there are seroius reasons they are scared, money, buildings, pensions, etc. But that risk is not going to go away and the decision will not get any easier.  If you didnt join in 2004 you are unlikely to ever join.
So in the end the dynamics havent changed. The overwhelming number of Bishops and lay convention delegates support TEC’s current direction. The levers of internal reform are no longer within in our grasp and havent been for a while.  The challenge now is to build a new church around what is left, the courageous Network Bishops and Dioceses, the large evangelical parishes that have left or are leaving, and yes even the AMIA, and to build a new Anglican church in the US. If people would simply let go of this fight, this new movement would dwarf TEC in a few years.  People forget that Methodism and the Baptist church were relatively small sects until the great revivals swept through the US.  God could use us for a similar revival, if we let him.  Lets get on with it.

[45] Posted by Going Home on 09-24-2006 at 07:42 PM • top

No one has spoken about the strategic meaning of having Camp Allen at the same exact time as the Kigali.  Wimberly apparantly set the meeting up in coordination with the ABC.  Perhaps the whole point of the meeting was to release a more moderate pro ABC statement before the GS statement could get much traction. Maybe if there was a week between the two meetings - or a fast from blogging, the CA statement would not have been possible.

[46] Posted by BillK on 09-24-2006 at 09:20 PM • top

I suspect that there was much behind the scene political movement that is not known to us.  Some of this may just be the typical Episcopal travel at a snail pace.  Also Episcopalians are so slow to condemn or judge others.  Of course this may just be some company men covering their positions in ECUSA.  I don’t know, but ISTM that if you believe in episcopal form of government you are obligated to obey and follow the heirarchy above you until it is ajudicated as non-Christian.  Sort of like being a RCC but saying you don’t want and believe in the Pope or think it is OK to use birth control pills.  It may just be a mistaken view that TEC can be reformed and the orthodox can win if they just hold out and work within the structure of ECUSA.  I think that is wrong but I have been wrong before.  If there is to be a second province in the US or even another GS Anglican Church then at some point the orthodox will first have to bite the bullet and declare TEC as not a Christian church and the leaders as not in the faith.  I doubt there are very many that could now do that or maybe never be able to do that.  Many orhodox may wind up having to recognize that they are really congregationlist or else just hunker down and drift along in the present situation.  ISTM that there are a lot of nice options available outside TEC.  IMHO

[47] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 09-24-2006 at 09:20 PM • top

I haven’t posted before now because I am still ruminating about the Kigali Communique and the Camp Allen Statement. At first, I admit, I was less than thrilled with the CAS. After some thought, I think there may be more to it than I first thought (Greg seems to hint that that is the case based on his conversation with +Iker). Given the extraordinary secrecy-we still don’t know exactly who was there or what was discussed-I think there may indeed may be much more to this meeting than we realise. For one thing, I simply can’t imagine +Iker signing on to this and selling us all down the river if there wasn’t more to it than meets the eye. So I’m going to sit tight for a while and wait to see what info becomes available in the next few days. Greg has also promised to enlighten us a.s.a.p. as to what +Iker told him. I await with bated breath.

the snarkster

[48] Posted by the snarkster on 09-24-2006 at 09:25 PM • top

Snarkster,

See my latest update in the comment thread.

Hmmm.

How to say this in a way that doesn’t make things worse?

The depth of complexity of these two events is staggering, and I say this as someone who [a href=“http://www.greggriffith.com/mtarchives/000029.php”]designs software[/a] and adapts hardware to help profoundly disabled children communicate with the outside world. I say it as someone who wrestles daily with complexity in the form of database design. For many years I have made a living make complex things simple for people to understand. I say it as someone who is blessed to have the phone numbers of several of Anglicanism’s brightest lights on my speed dial, who are always willing to take a moment and help me understand what’s happening.

The level of secrecy that surrounded these meetings is unprecedented in this debate. While we managed to get a surprising amount information out of them, there’s only a little of it we’re at liberty to reveal (Allen, I know what you’re thinking). The point is: There’s secrecy. There are personalities. There is information we can share, and information we can’t share, and we constantly have to be on our toes so we don’t get the two mixed up. Plus it comes in sometimes at astonishing speed. There is the ECUSA/Network intrigue. There is the Global South/America intrigue. There is the Canterbury-and-everyone-else intrigue, plus the powderkeg +Rowan is sitting on in his own HoB. There are groups within the American orthodox camp that have very different ideas about how things should be handled. The same is happening on the liberal side. There is bluffing, poker-playing, chess-playing, and battlefield maneuvering. I live in Mississippi, Matt lives in New York, Sarah is in South Carolina, Andy is in Ohio, and Jackie is in Louisiana. We all get constant tips, questions, and suggestions from readers and other bloggers, all day, every day. Plus we all have jobs and families. There’s the constant technical challenge created by a site that’s long since outgrown the ranks of the lil’ ol’ blog we set up almost three years ago.

On top of all that, we’re all deeply torn up about the state of our church. I’m regularly siezed by fear over what to do about my five-year old daughter, who was two in 2003. She’s in kindergarten now, and comes home teaching us words in Spanish. She was a toddler when Gene Robinson was consecrated; now she’s some kind of equestrian prodigy. She’s asked me why we have so many friends who are priests.

This has gotten very, very complex, and every day we just find ourselves deeper in uncharted territory.

[49] Posted by Greg Griffith on 09-25-2006 at 12:13 AM • top

Greg, et. al.
Thank you.

[50] Posted by R. Eric Sawyer on 09-25-2006 at 01:14 AM • top

I think one of the problems here is that the point of my article is that the effect of the communique puts the Windsor bishops in a position of asking for far less than Kigali proposes they need. I believe this is true and it worries me that despite the good intentions of the Network bishops involved, Camp Allen will prove detrimental.

About good intentions. I do not at all question the motives or intentions of the Network bishops. Never have. I do think that trying to broaden the orthodox coalition carries the corollary danger of weakening the thrust of the orthodox witness. This is not the first time I have argued this. In fact I had a lengthy back and forth debate online with Dr. Radner of the ACI about this very topic not too long ago.

I may be wrong. I don’t think I am and I think the strength, or rather the lack of strength, in the statement bears this out.

I have no doubt that each one of our Network bishops is filled with the Holy Spirit, faithful, and ready to do whatever it takes to bring people and the whole church into line with the gospel.

That is, no doubt, why they were at Camp Allen in the first place.

Again, it is the effect of the statement not the motives I question. Even when I thought all of them had seen Kigali, I never thought they were intentionally compromising their faith. I thought they were doing what they thought best for the orthodox cause in America. It’s just that I thought, and think, the statement does not support the primates communique. I still do.

[51] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-25-2006 at 02:52 AM • top

Greg,
I think your decision to sit on the material, no matter how “hot” it is, until Sunday afternnoon is wise.  See my comment about 5 above saying what we can all use is an editor to make sure what we say is correct and to make sure what we say is not made of emotion.  Will your life be worse if someone scoops you with Iker’s view of the CA meetings or will it be better because you took the time to get it right?

I believe all these disparate matters are coming together in ways we could not have anticipated.  Perhaps, wouldn’t it be loverly, we are seeing the fingerprints of God in our small corner of the universe.  Once again, I see more of an opportunity now than ever before for the orthodox in TEC to become TEC while those who lack faith in the Bible as revealed are left out in the cold to ruminate about their sins.  I think their sins are probably no more than mine in number but of greater import for leading faithful people for whom they are responsible astray.  Have faith in our faithful bishops at Camp Allen, in the bishops in the GS, and in the ABC, that they are all working for Christ in ways we may not know or imagine.

[52] Posted by khawk858 on 09-25-2006 at 03:20 AM • top

Matt,
Bishop MacPherson has said he believes the Network and the “Windsor Bishops” have the same goal in mind, but have different views of how to reach that same goal.  He sees benefit in working with the Network and the Network sees benefit in working with him.  Why can’t you believe that different people working to the same goal can use different means for a synergistic effect?  I believe in my bishop’s methods of reaching our common goal, but that does in way indicate that I believe the Network should stop its methods.  One of the glories of the Anglican way is allowing different paths to the same goal.

Ken from the Diocese of Western Louisiana

[53] Posted by khawk858 on 09-25-2006 at 03:29 AM • top

Ken, thanks for this.
Of course cooperation and unity are all good things. but I do think the primary mission at this time is to reform Anglicanism in North America. That is made more difficult IMO when consensus is sought with people who do not share the same principles. +Wolf and +Duncan for example both wish to be Windsor bishops, but when it comes to Christian principles they are far far apart.  This statement, again IMO, weakens the Kigali appeal because it was a consensus statement. The statement makes it easier to deny what Kigali seeks. In this case, cooperation with a broad coalition ended detrimentally.

[54] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-25-2006 at 03:44 AM • top

The signatories have been paying a dear price for years.  They paid a price to attend the meeting.  No one will be surprised if Beers arranges for them to pay a bigger price in the near future.  By my accounting, they’ve earned some trust. 
The signatories confessed the faith set forth in scripture, creeds, and formularies.  All things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose (Rom 8:28). 
To our brothers and sisters in Christ in the continuing Anglican traditions (many of whom are regular commenters on SF), it must have stung that your presence was not acknowledged in the documents.  However, I assure you that you are deeply loved as children of our Almighty Lord, and you are deeply respected as some of the best Anglican Bible teachers in North America.  You are valued, and you are not forgotten.  In Christ we do stand together, and in the fullness of time, all things will work together for good.

[55] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 09-25-2006 at 04:21 AM • top

Based on the actual statement that came out of the Texas meeting, I think that Greg and Matt are absolutely right. All that really counts here is what these bishops are willing to commit themselves to and own in the light of day, and THAT was pretty depressing. Matt is absolutely correct to say that it is no advance over what we had before, and in some respects, a step backward. Even if it were to turn out that these spineless Windsor jellyfish were really brave, off the record, I don’t care. This was their chance to prove that their support for orthodoxy is more than merely theoretical, and they blew it. I apologize to the rest of ECUSA for my bishop, Edward “Chicken” Little, and his ilk.

[56] Posted by Chazzy on 09-25-2006 at 04:43 AM • top

Chazzy,

I do thank you for your support of Stand Firm. I, obviously, think the statement was too weak and that it could do real harm. I do not think though that bishop Little or any of the other bishops had bad intentions or lacked courage. I think they all did what they did for the good of the gospel, the communion and the people in their charge. I think the statement was a bad thing for reasons I’ve articulated, but I do not think there were bad or craven motives behind it, quite the opposite.

[57] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-25-2006 at 05:22 AM • top

After reading the SPREAD “petition” against the Archbishop of Canterbury, preceding the Rwanda meeting, I felt deeply that there was great danger for the orthodox cause in America (indeed, doom for our cause) in taking the GS direction without much more consultation and prayer.  It seems to me that our Bishops are following such consultation with Canterbury, as well as further consulting Scripture and catholic tradition, and I rejoice in their statement.  I do not think it is at odds with the GS statement except in the timeframe and details that are negotiable.  I look forward to a great confluence in February of all of these movements and meetings.

In the Camp Allen letter, we read, “It is our hope and prayer that through our fellowship we can contribute to the renewal of our Province’s life within the Communion.”  Some are disconcerted by this statement, but I believe it refers to a ministry for the many people who are still caught up in the Episcopal Church, who have been subjected to a campaign of disinformation and silence, and who still need pastoral attention to teach them the truth about the present situation and to lead them to the truest solution.  Even if they are “late-comers”—as we know from the Lord’s own parable—they can be joyously accepted; they are deserving of the “care” that the orthodox Bishops pledge, and I honor them for that pledge.  Somehow, they will seek to spread knowledge and inspiration within the church itself.

++Rowan Williams, too, in his Dutch interview, spoke of his concern for the great majority of Episcopalians who are caught in a middle ground and who need time and pastoral awakening to bring them into the new realities Christ’s church.  I honor him, too, for his wish that they should not be left behind, but should be brought along, in any new structural solution.
I feel that things have gone well this week, take them all together.  And this is in spite of great confusion on all hands.

[58] Posted by Paula on 09-25-2006 at 05:49 AM • top

Nyssa,
In response to your question wrt principles.
Do you think +Wolf could sign onto the Common Cause statement? If so, then perhaps I am wrong, but I don’t think so given what I have read of her.
This is not to say that her signiture on the CA statement is not a good thing, it is. I think you are right to liken her theological outlook to ++RW’s (though I would suggest that RW is probably a little more to the right, not by much though). It is certainly honorable and good for her to be willing to set aside her personal understandings for the sake of the unity of the Communion.

My point was that we are at the begining of something…a new provincial structure of some kind I believe. The strength, nature, and character of that structure is being set. It needs to be established and rooted firmly not only in the minimal Windsor requirements, but in the positively orthodox princilpes generally shared by the Network bishops. Moreover, the institutional structure itself needs to be free of 815 (either by being made seperate or by replacing it altogether) in keeping with the request of the GS primates. On these two elements, principles and desires with regard to structure, the Windsor bishops and the Network bishops clearly diverge. One need only compare the structural assumptions and implications of the ACN conference address from Pittsburgh this summer with that of the CA statement to see that. The question is whether the new thing, whatever it is, that energes will be based on the minimalist requirements of the WR or be a truly theologically reformed (and I mean reformed with a lower case R) entity. Only a seperate structure will provide an adequate foundation for the theological reformation described by the Common cause documents, but if the Network folds into the larger Windsor parameters as described in the CA document, then such a structure will never emerge.

[59] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-25-2006 at 06:08 AM • top

Greg -
I want to thank you for your “complexity” posting.  I found it both comforting and disquieting.  As an adult convert and a refugee from the secular world, I am all too familiar with jockeyings for power and corporate politics.  I know that God, in His time, will sort it all out, but His church in the Anglican tradition seems to have a structure and decision-making mechanisms that leave it wide open for this sort of thing.

[60] Posted by ElaineF. on 09-25-2006 at 08:33 AM • top

At some point - and I am thinking that point is here - the laity will speak.  I was at a Diocese of Virginia Regional Council meeting the other night and one of the delegates from a non-coalition church made a comment to me about her frustration that “all of this” is coming from “the top.”  I was very surprised by her comment - that somehow things beyond her control are happening at the top of the church and she is left out - even though she falls on the more progressive side (though I am not quite sure, actually).  I’ve been thinking about this ever since and it seems to me that there is a perception - because so much attention is drawn to them (and rightly so) that this is a revolution of sorts that is coming from the top - down - and that is so not true.  This is coming from the pews on up - it is the laity who have pressed the leadership into action. 

It is the laity who holds the purse and that is a fact.

But at some point, the laity will speak (not in a tricke but in a roar).  One of the hallmarks of renewal is the equipping for ministry of “the priesthood of all believers.”  Renewal turns the church upside down - where the clergy are equipping and supporting the laity for ministry, not the other way around.

It seems to me that the next step is not some other meeting of bishops and archbishops - either here or somewhere abroad - the next step is for the parishes (and the laity leadership inside them) to make some decisions and take action.  The Windsor Bishops Letter and the Statement from the Global South opens the door for the laity to walk through - and the time is now upon us to do it.  No one can do this for us - not the bishops or archbishops or the clergy.  This is a layperson’s decision - what are we going to do?

Mary
Truro

[61] Posted by BabyBlue on 09-25-2006 at 08:36 AM • top

http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/

Archbishop Njongonkulu Ndungane
Statement on the Global South Communiqué
24 September 2006

“I thank God for the fellowship I enjoyed with my brother Primates of CAPA and the Global South, in Kigali last week, as we shared concerns about the Anglican Communion and other matters of common interest.

I wish to offer this clarification of the position of the Anglican Church of Southern Africa, in light of the potentially misleading impression that our Province has endorsed the Communiqué issued at the end of the meeting. Whereas Canon Livingstone Ngewu and I were present in Kigali, neither of us were made aware even of the possibility of a communiqué in the name of the Primates of the Global South, prior to its release.” 

lots more…

[62] Posted by Leonardo Ricardo on 09-25-2006 at 08:48 AM • top

Greg makes it sound like 24! Maybe he is the real Jack Bowers and not on a boat to China.  Seriously, this is all the fog of war.  Face it, ECUSA has had the walls breached and the enemy is inside and at the control point.  Now the question is can the members retake it and by what means or is it time to withdraw and regroup at another point.  In any war, the strategy room and the maps on the wall hear a variety of ideas posted.  I’ve been there and often the strategy adopted is later dropped for another one.  I do know that if the Holy Spirit was to send a great revival in TEC with many being saved and mobilized, the whole thing could be taken back.  This comes with prayer, strong preaching, and effort on our part, but it is His decision.  Look how far some of you have come in three years.  I would have thought you were flaming liberals but now you are “Bible thumping fundamentalist!”  In another six months you will accuse PM of being liberal!  Time will sort this our.  Then again some are just the frog that has been in the hot water too long.  Can’t wait for hour 11:00 to 12:00.  Hang on, it sure is interesting.  At least no one will get bored.

[63] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 09-25-2006 at 09:22 AM • top

Matt+ I think your concerns are properly expressed. We don’t talk much about the gift of prophecy, but I believe you have it in the sense of being able to proclaim the truth of God’s Word and apply it.  Your clear insights are a real gift to us.

  We have a wonderful opportunity for real reformation in beginning this new orthodox Anglican entity with God’s help.  The Global South Archbishops are encouraging us to move forward, so that is what we now must do.  The Kairos moment is here.  It will take great courage and fortitude on the part of many many individuals, but we know that in trusting God He will be with us.  I am currently in a Bible study of Acts—how appropriate—the building of the church by the power of the Holy Spirit at work in faithful believers—-and not one mention of property or buildings!  God bless you and thank you for being such a faithful vessel.

[64] Posted by BettyLee Payne on 09-25-2006 at 10:38 AM • top

Gulfstream has it correct imho per his 09-24-06 09:49 am post.

[65] Posted by MasterServer on 09-25-2006 at 10:45 AM • top

I’m a little more inclined to approve of the Camp Allen Statement than I was at first. 
The bishops are criticized for not stating their separation from TEC more fully, and instead for retaining the Episcopal identity.  To some extent, how can the orthodox renounced the identity of being the Episcopal Church.  Whether we like it or not, we are the episcopal church in American, the one not in communion with Rome or (at least now) in communion with the Churches of the East.  Why should we renounce that honor, or its full meaning.  Yes there are dioceses that have gone down the wrong road and have acted schismatically, but that is not what we have done. 
Further, I believe we can retain our position within the overall church albeit, in an impaired way, for some time.  I see no reason to burn all the bridges right now.  We will have APO of some kind, we can withhold funding, and until the rest of the church is reformed, or whithers and dies, we can remain in a state of ecclesiastical autonomy.
In the end, as has been said wisely, our part of the church is growing and the other part is shrinking. 
So it may be a rationale plan to sit separately for half-a-generation, and when the unreformed part wants to come back to us and be reformed, allow them.
And I suppose my reaction is colored by my desire not to give up fighting for those still under the sway of revisionist leaders.  There are shepherds, and then there are sheepdogs.  The shpeherd needs the sheepdog to help him go after the lost and to stave off the wolves.

[66] Posted by Rick Killough on 09-25-2006 at 11:05 AM • top

Rick, I would suggest that you really can’t withhold funds. If you earmark them within your parish, that money frees up other funds that are used to meet your Diocisian committment. On a parish level, I havent found one large parish that succesfully cut off Diocisian funding for more than a year. On a diocisian level ,some Dioceses created “consicience funds” that allowed a temporary earmarking to designated funds, such as state retreat centers, but in reality that money simply displaced other dollars that was then used to make the diocisian commitment to a national church. I am not aware of a single non-Network Diocese that has cut off funding to the national church programs. So if you are going to stay, you will have to be reconciled the the fact that you are funding what you are seeking to reform.
I would also respectfully take issue with the idea that we can reform from within through growth. That was a popular notion 25 years ago, but has proven not to be the case. Faithful young parents, the lifeblood of church growth, are unlikely to join a parish in a denomination with TEC’s well deserved reputation, or one in constant turmoil.  The Network Dioceses have marginally better growth rates than other dioceses, however, the real disparity was in the growth rate of the larger evangelical parishes about 15 years ago; and most of these parishes have left or are leaving because, in part, they recognize that their mission and further growth is rendered impossible by staying.  TEC is not becoming more “orthodox” in nature over time, the trend is in the other direction and is accelerating.

[67] Posted by Going Home on 09-25-2006 at 01:38 PM • top

Nyssa,
I am with Wilkie on this one.  I think at this time it is inappropriate at best to have Wolf be part of a group of orthodox bishops.  Unless she has repented of her vote in favor of VGR in 2003, then her presence is troubling and suspect.

[68] Posted by Gayle on 09-25-2006 at 01:46 PM • top

If we look at this as a political battle from the perspective of power centers, the Camp Allen statement looks pretty good—particularly since it doesn’t, I’m sure, reflect everything that was discussed and agreed to during the meeting.

The major power centers in this are obviously 815 and the GS815’s concern is that it has to keep the HoB on its side, since the GC and even the Canons have proven to have no real power over our megalomaniac “prophetic” bishops.

The GS for its part has to keep nearly all the Primates in its corner.  CAPA is a very large part of the Communion, but it isn’t the whole thing, and keeping Asia and Latin America going along is something of a restraining influence.

Caught in the middle, in quite different ways, are the Windsor bishops and North American orthodox generally, on the one hand, and the ABC on the other.  +++Cantuar’s major concerns now center around avoiding having either the GS or 815 do something so radical that it will make holding the Communion (and his own HoB) together impossible.  ECUSA completely blew it at GC06, and again at the meeting in New York.  Kigali poses problems principally because if implemented it would cause an immediate violent rupture in ECUSA, greatly complicate the legal problems of the orthodox (both Seventh Conv and the Windsor dioceses), cause an explosion in his own C of E, and alienate many of the Primates who are strongly orthodox but want to see a more charitable—or at least more tactful—ecclesial resolution of the conflict.  Thus +++Rowan’s statements after GC06 which make clear that while he strongly rejects ECUSA’s revisionism (both in actions and in doctrine), but he continues to sound hopeful notes about repentance, conciliarity, and reconciliation.

The Windsor bishops’ major concern is 815.  They know the GS and +++Cantuar are with them—that’s one of the major points of the letter—but they also know that if the HoB as a body is strongly behind 815’s radical revisionism, they will be in for long, draining legal battles on several fronts at once.  So this letter, while firmly asserting their Windsor compliance, also reassures the waverers and moderates who make up the majority of our HoB that they are committed to ECUSA collegiality.

All in all, a satisfactory letter.  Now we can all wait to hear the other 27 shoes drop…

[69] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 09-25-2006 at 01:52 PM • top

Greg:

Re:  Struggling with TEC with children and trying to live your life in the meantime….

I know exactly what you mean having two children of my own who have had to struggle with being in the middle of this controversy whether they liked it or not.  When 2003 happened we and our children were blissfully ignorant of most of what was going on in the Episcopal church.  However, as we were a faithful parish in the midst of a liberal diocese, it didn’t take long for us to find ourselves in the middle of a big mess.  My son, who was nine at the time, quickly caught on that something was wrong.  When we explained that ECUSA no longer believed in the authority of Scripture he was very upset.  He sat down the next morning and wrote our bishop a letter - I’ll never forget it because it summed it up well.  He wrote, “Why are you tearing pages out our Bible?” 

    Unfortunately, I was also on parish counsel at the time and got to deal with most of this controversy - fighting to join the ACN with those who did not understand the importance of it, fighting the bishop’s attempts to shut down how we did worship, fighting the bishop’s interference as we were trying to find a new priest… my children got to deal with all of that as I dealt with it.  I was told several times that, “I should just give it up and go somewhere else.”  However, my family is Anglican - we were fighting for the right to remain Anglican.  All of us dearly loved our church and the people there.

    So, as I stated earlier on the thread, the result of the 2006 Convention was that we formed a new parish under the headship of a godly bishop from Africa.  My children, however, are as much a part of that joy as we are.  They understand the issues and have grown in their Faith because of this.  In particpating in persecution, they also get to participate in liberation.  They understand their Christianity probably better than most in their city. 

    All of which is to say, I know it’s not fun and a real shake up of your family structure, but God can even use what has been evil and turn it for His glory.  My only advice is to look for the safe haven God might be showing you and head in that direction.

[70] Posted by Eclipse on 09-25-2006 at 02:46 PM • top

Nyssa:

I agree and have stated more than once that +++Williams’ comfort in being able to believe one thing yet put those beliefs aside (for now anyway) is a great concern for our future.  And if being Anglican means that we can redefine core values and 2000 years of tradition whenever we can get enough votes, than being an Anglican may soon mean that one is not even Christian - especially if we push-out those in the GS who are keeping our feet to the fire of Truth. 

You reference “discernment of the international communion”.  Would this not suggest that the Lambeth Conferences over the past many decades (and the 39 Articles and the Catechism and the Creeds, etc) have spoken loud & clear.  It is the personal opinions that are in conflict with “the international communion” as well as othodox christianity that need to come in line.  Mine, yours, +Hers and the like.

I must first follow Christ - and then if I can do that within an Anglican setting, that is my heaven on earth.

[71] Posted by Wilkie on 09-25-2006 at 03:34 PM • top

Matt, What principles do Wolf and Duncan not share?  Obviously they do not share certain end conclusions, but I was unaware that they did not share basic principles.  Please explain. 

Quite frankly, I think it is a great thing that Wolf has had the discipline not to confuse her own perspective with the authoritative teaching of the church.  If more bishops were so humble we wouldn’t be in this mess.

[72] Posted by Nyssa on 09-25-2006 at 03:46 PM • top

Timothy,
Thanks for the clarification.  I was ignorant on those two points (and must say, I was only eight years of age twenty-five years ago).
Still, it appears from the leaning of the Network bishops that they believe this can be done (meaning realignment) without a complete break.  It appears to me that the Camp Allen group are heading toward being the ‘recognized’ Anglican province, at least for a time.  When that recognition occurs, I believe there will be a shock through the rest of TEC, which may see new ‘defections’ to the Windsor Camp.
Also, in addition to ‘breeding’ ourselves into the majority, I do believe we can keep going by evangelization.  More than other evangelicals or Christians, there is half a country that is churchless, waiting for us.
I suppose I may be overly optimistic.  I haven’t been fighting the long fight directly (though my parents and grandparents, etc. did) in TEC for the past 40 years or so.  Maybe it’s the blood of generations of warriors (or lawyers) rising in me, but I really believe this can be done, God willing, by standing put, showing the world who and what we are, showing the world what the usurper has done to the rest of the church, and through faith.
That being said, what would the canonical consequences be of a diocese:
1.  refusing to submit contributions to the national church;
2. holding an alternate convention, not intended to replace the Gen. Convention of TEC, but to act as “government of paramount force” or de facto Gen. Con. for a number of years?
Again, I have no qualms with those that believe the Outside strategy is the right one, I just haven’t given up on the Inside fight yet.

[73] Posted by Rick Killough on 09-25-2006 at 03:47 PM • top

Rick and Timothy, some dioceses stopped sending program $ to 815 in the‘90’s, our DRG in 92. A few cong. chose to send directly to 815, and some of those are moderates, not reappraisers. It’s a diocesan decision. Not $.01 went to 815 unless sent locally. The cannons do not require program support, only the GC assessment for seat and vote. I hope more dioceses choose this path and congregations that take it commit the same amount to outside mission.

To the faithful and hopeful leaders and readers of Stand Firm: Some of you and I have known since July that something major was to occur this month, before either the GS or CA meetings were announced. IT HAS. If you decided what that might look like and CAS was not to your expectation, your way was not their way. Even without our individual contacts, phone numbers and analysis, All that has happened is logical. It is also reasonable believe that there are more in the HOB yet to join with them and are providing that season of opportunity. Their “filter” is more Catholic than “Calvin,” they are bishops, not executive presbyters.

To quote from Greg’s interview:
Bishop Iker: “Again, this meeting was held not to craft a reply to Kigali, but to signal, in an official capacity, our desire to remain a part of the communion under the terms of Windsor. This was a letter from bishops who want to comply with Windsor, to other ECUSA bishops, that said, “For the sake of the communion, we think you should join us.” That’s why Bishop Wolf, who voted for Gene Robinson, was able to sign it - because while she might have personal differences with Lambeth 1.10, she recognizes that it is nonetheless the mind of the communion, and that Windsor is the way forward in communion. It’s not unlike Archbishop Williams, about whom it’s been reported that he has personal views more accommodating of the homosexual movement than are expressed in Lambeth 1.10, but he recognizes that it is the mind of the communion right now, and institutionally, he’s going to support it.”

So, I write it again –there is a plan, it is being followed and we will get clear signals when they are called for.

We have trustworthy ACN leaders. We have trustworthy GS leaders. We have trustworthy friends and contacts. The ABC has acted trustworthy.

Let us be trustworthy, be positive and be generous in support, praise and prayer. Love Christ’s faithful Apostles and the people whom you serve. Keep preaching and witnessing to the lost and caring for those in need. New souls are finding the Kingdom weekly and need to be nurtured, fed and grounded. Focus on the People of God until the clarion call sounds. There will not be any doubt nor confusion when that occurs.

Thank you every one that faithfully gives, and gives, and gives again to keep the faith clearly offered and the little stone bridges free for those that seek to cross and find God.

I ask your prayers for three movements still bringing the gospel and equipping leaders: Faith Alive and the Cursillo and Kairos Movements. Without them we would not be where we are today. Silver City had a FA Weekend several weeks ago and Friday evening Mesilla Park will begin theirs. Cursillo 101N in the DRG will be in two weeks.

[74] Posted by Bob Maxwell+ on 09-25-2006 at 04:20 PM • top

Rick, I can’t answer your question about the canonical consequences of cutting or eliminating contributions to the national church.  Its been a moot point in the non-Network Dioceses because there has generally been a strong majority in such Diocisian Conventions supporting continued giving.  In fact, several self styled “moderate” Dioceses, incredibly, increased funding last year. 
There have been a number of alternative convocations of various types over the years, and the ACN is the closest thing to a de facto alternative structure. Does your Bishop allow ACN membership? Is your parish an ACN member? I most states the Bishops have attempted to ban it through a pastoral directive to their clergy, one that cannot be disobeyed without the threat of discipline, even deposition. Their right to do so is disputed, but as a practical matter they get their way.
All of us have been where you are. I wish God had told all of us together, perhaps by skywriting(!), when it was time to leave. But He didnt, and none of us know God’s perfect will for others in this area.  The congregations and leadership of the larger parishes that have been in the fray in a heavy way, CCPlano, Truro, Falls Church, Christ Church Overland Park, the larger Central Florida churches, Christchurch Montgomery, etc. all seemed to have reached the conclusion, or are reaching the conclusion, that ministry couldnt be maintained within TEC.  I know other good people who have candidly told me they will likely never leave TEC because of concerns about finances or relationships.  One thing for sure, God is calling us to counsel with Him in a way that we have never done before. God bless you and your parish.

[75] Posted by Going Home on 09-25-2006 at 04:26 PM • top

Maxwell+, are there any non-Network Dioceses that have cut off funding for the national church other than the mandatory “seat and vote” contribution you mentioned? I am aware of none.  I agree it is a theoretical possibility, but it is important that those in the pews understand the reality.  I would love to hear that I am wrong.

[76] Posted by Going Home on 09-25-2006 at 04:30 PM • top

“Wolf has had the discipline not to confuse her own perspective with the authoritative teaching of the church.  If more bishops were so humble we wouldn’t be in this mess”

Nyssa:

This is a HUGE problem.  A truly humble Christian is called to repent of our ‘own perspectives’ in favor of His.  We need leaders who are willing to give-up personal opinion and be ‘born again’ and not politicians who are not even honest with their convictions.  Having too many ‘unconvicted’ Bishops is what kept us from disciplining things years ago when this whole mess started.

Our leaders (not to mention us rank and file Chrisitians) are called to “die to ourselves” not be disciplined enough to hide our true beliefs until a more convenient time.

Convert to Chiristianity - in the Anglican tradition - or find another job.  Moderate = Lukewarm ...

[77] Posted by Wilkie on 09-25-2006 at 04:54 PM • top

Timothy, you would have to research the budget reports from GC’s ‘06 back. We did it before there was a network. I’m sure that something will be recorded for everyone. One would need to make a list of those dioceses that seem to contribute little and then check for printed diocesan records, online or in 815 publications.

[78] Posted by Bob Maxwell+ on 09-25-2006 at 05:10 PM • top

Some of you know I barely tolerate the ordination of women, so you might think I would come down on the side of those suggesting she be excluded from the Windsor bishop’s rolls. But I don’t. She has obviously recognized the validity of adopting the Windsor report, was able to sign on to the four conditions, and had the courage to trek to CA to meet with “the boys”. I say welcome her testimony with open arms. Has nothing to do with the validity of her orders, record on voting or anything else. She is with us on this matter and we should welcome her support. Shunning her would be a grave mistake. The enemy of my enemies is my friend.

[79] Posted by Gulfstream on 09-25-2006 at 05:41 PM • top

Nyssa makes a great point. Let us not concern ourselves with the personal opinions of leaders, but with how well they defend the “teachings”  handed down. That’s where the rubber meets the road.

[80] Posted by Gulfstream on 09-25-2006 at 05:46 PM • top

I’m not sure if this ever got posted after the problem with comments:

Nyssa,
In response to your question wrt principles.
Do you think +Wolf could sign onto the Common Cause statement? If so, then perhaps I am wrong, but I don’t think so given what I have read of her.
This is not to say that her signiture on the CA statement is not a good thing, it is. I think you are right to liken her theological outlook to ++RW’s (though I would suggest that RW is probably a little more to the right, not by much though). It is certainly honorable and good for her to be willing to set aside her personal understandings for the sake of the unity of the Communion.

My point was that we are at the begining of something…a new provincial structure of some kind I believe. The strength, nature, and character of that structure is being set. It needs to be established and rooted firmly not only in the minimal Windsor requirements, but in the positively orthodox princilpes generally shared by the Network bishops. Moreover, the institutional structure itself needs to be free of 815 (either by being made seperate or by replacing it altogether) in keeping with the request of the GS primates. On these two elements, principles and desires with regard to structure, the Windsor bishops and the Network bishops clearly diverge. One need only compare the structural assumptions and implications of the ACN conference address from Pittsburgh this summer with that of the CA statement to see that. The question is whether the new thing, whatever it is, that energes will be based on the minimalist requirements of the WR or be a truly theologically reformed (and I mean reformed with a lower case R) entity. Only a seperate structure will provide an adequate foundation for the theological reformation described by the Common cause documents, but if the Network folds into the larger Windsor parameters as described in the CA document, then such a structure will never emerge.

[81] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-25-2006 at 06:12 PM • top

Wilkie, His (God’s) perspective is precisely what the debate is about, and according to the Windsor Report we seek His perspective through the discernment of the international communion.  Of course, even an international communion is sometimes wrong so you won’t see Anglicans claiming infallibility, but nonetheless it is through the instruments of unity that this discernment ought to occur. 

Of course, if you personally need ecclessial ‘purity’ that badly don’t stop with Wolf, go right for the ABC.  Ignore his public support of the official teaching of the church and get rid of him for the personal questions he has in the past entertained.  Then you and the GS can get together and define orthodoxy with an even more fine comb.  You can pick all sorts of challenging topics and refine your allegiances; defining the ‘true church’ in ever more narrow ways.  You could do it, but it wouldn’t be Anglicanism.  The fact of the matter is that the church needs more bishops like Wolf.  Bishops who faithfully pray, use the brain God gave them, but act under the guidance of the Church.

[82] Posted by Nyssa on 09-25-2006 at 08:42 PM • top

Bill Channon,

Sorry to get back to your question so late.  Posting has been a challenge of late.

I believe the CA Statement is the best possible outcome.  As noted by others, it was a response by as broad as possible a coalition of TEC bishops in response to the Windsor Report and the inadequate GC2006 response to it.  The Anglican Communion eagerly awaited TEC’s response to Windsor.  It was an inadequate response.  Crafting the CA Statement within the framework of the Kigali Communiqué would have been a mistake.  Even if every bishop had had foreknowledge of the KC, their task at Camp Allen was of a different nature.  The task at hand was to craft a statement within the framework of Windsor

It has been suggested that the opportunity for using the CA Statement as a platform which responds to the KC would have been the best outcome, maximizing the gift offered by the Kigali bishops.  It has been painted as a lost opportunity.  Additionally, It has been proposed that the broadness of this coalition has effectively detrimentally diluted the orthodox voice in America.  I disagree.  It has helped us better identify which flag to raise so as to draw in the largest number of bishops which uphold the faith once delivered.  (While some have cast shadows on individual bishops attending CA, I would suggest they reconsider the fact that they were willing to publicly cast their lot with orthodox bishops!)  The CA bishops were rallied under a flag which considered the Windsor Report – that’s a broader coalition than the ACN coalition.  A response by KC bishops to such a gift would not have been achievable.  Furthermore, it would not have been with scope of work for which these bishops had been gathered.

I would propose that the appropriate body capable of considering the KC gift may possibly be the ACN.  Yet as we have read, even within this camp, there is concern that not all bishops are in agreement with regard to route to maintaining a link to Canterbury.  Thus, it is unclear to me that there is consensus within ACN as to how to respond to the gift offered by KC.  I am aware of the statement released by the ACN in response to the KC.  If you review it, you will note their statement is one of gratitude for the support given to North American Anglicans.  It says nothing in regards to ACN being receptive to the offer by KC. Seen against this background I believe that the CA statement is the best outcome to the mandate under which its constituents were gathered. 

You asked:  Do you think “A voice” weakens “The Voice”? 

My answer is a resounding NO!  Furthermore, I do not view more than one orthodox perspective as a negative thing.  One of the strengths of the Anglican tradition has been to welcome diversity of opinion under one tent.  The tent is the faith once delivered.  The various orthodox views help us to see the multiple facets of our understanding and assists in better defining the issues and potential solutions.  Thus, when a voice such as the Camp Allen bishops speak, their voice says “hey, within this broad context – Windsor, this is how we see the issue”.  When I refer to “The voice” I refer to the voice which has been deemed the spokesman for orthodox Anglicans. 

I trust this answers your questions.

[83] Posted by richardc on 09-26-2006 at 04:01 AM • top

Richard C, either the Camp Allen statement is true or it is not. If it is a true statement of the Bishop’s intent, then we must act on the basis that they intend to stay in TEC indefinately.  That is certainly not the message that the remaining orthodox in TEC have been waiting around to hear. It is also a message that the departing churches—the largest parishes in this debate—will hear loud and clear as they decide how much, if any, coordination is warranted with those inside Bishops. 
If the statement is incorrect, (perhaps due to misundstandings or subtle text changes) then it needs to be corrected.
Parents with growing kids don’t have six years or more to sort his out. Many have stayed because it has been suggested that an organized departure was forthcoming. The Global South says it is time to do it.  But this message says the opposite.

[84] Posted by Going Home on 09-26-2006 at 12:49 PM • top

I’m with Timothy. I said months ago that the one thing we need to avoid is having this whole thing devolve into a series of “wait until” moments. Here is what we have had so far: Wait until the ‘03 Primates Meeting. Wait until the release of the Windsor Report. Wait until the Dromantine Meeting. Wait until the ACO meeting. Wait until GC06. Wait until Kigali. Wait until Camp Allen. Now we are hearing wait until the ‘07 Primates Meeting. Wait until Lambeth ‘08. Wait until GC09. And on and on and on and on….......

As Greg and others have intimated, there may be things happening that we have not been informed of. Great! Inform us. Someone needs to stand up and tell us what’s going on. You can’t continue to treat us like Episcopal mushrooms-kept in the dark and fed manure.

Come on people! Lets get this thing settled. That is my problem with the CA Statement. At best, it delays or complicates a final resolution and at worst, it scuttles a final resolution completely. All of the CA bishops, Network or whatever, need to realise that there are real people in real pews sitting out here looking for some kind of closure so we can get on with our lives. I agree with +Duncan: We don’t need more meetings just to plan more meetings..

the snarkster

[85] Posted by the snarkster on 09-26-2006 at 01:44 PM • top

Timothy,

you said,

Richard C, either the Camp Allen statement is true or it is not. If it is a true statement of the Bishop’s intent, then we must act on the basis that they intend to stay in TEC indefinately.  That is certainly not the message that the remaining orthodox in TEC have been waiting around to hear.

If I read your statement correctly, you mean either the CA statement is true or it is a lie ( or are we dissecting it till we determine what are half truths?)

I read nothing in the CA Statement that gives me the liberty to read into it that these Bishops are intending to stay in TEC indefinitely.  That is conjecture and an indication that we are reading this document through the wrong lenses.

Too many folks looked to this document with preconceived expectations.  When those were shattered, the gloom and doom came into play.  We are sounding like the Israelites, most especially like Miriam and Aaron murmuring against those in spiritual authority over us. 

If you feel compelled to leave TEC for the sake of your family, do so when you hear the voice of God lead you elsewhere, not on the basis of your leaning towards your own understanding of what the Bishops, our shepards, may or may not have said.  I sympathize with you.  I live in a revisionist diocese, in a revisionist church with a revisionist priest.  I will leave when God tells me to leave.  That’s the role of the sheep.  Follow the leader/shepard. Our spiritual shepards are these bishops.
God fed Elijah in the desert.  God fed the Israelites in the desert.  Has he not fed you in your present desert?  While in the desert, God made all necessary provision for the Israelites.  Yet they murmured, murmured and murmured.  Do we really believe God is in control?  Then watch and see how He divinely works out His plans for His pleasure and glory.

[86] Posted by richardc on 09-26-2006 at 03:51 PM • top

Richardc,

I hear this line quite often:

“Too many folks looked to this document with preconceived expectations.  When those were shattered, the gloom and doom came into play. ”

It is simply not true. I don’t know of anyone who really expected a miracle at Camp Allen. I did not expect it to be the step back from the March 05 statement that it was, but I was not at all expecting much from a meeting of this nature. I think the CA statement is quite bad both in comparison with previous WR bishops’ statements and on its own merits.

[87] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-26-2006 at 03:56 PM • top

Richard C; I walked with others and are under an African Bishop.  But many of my friends stayed, and did so in the hope, reinforced by inside leaders, that TEC would still reform, or that an organized exit was coming.  I was always skeptical. But recent events made me hopeful again, including, ironically, the election of the Bishop-elect.  So my concern is not over my future, but that of those still in the pews.
I suppose we will just disagree about the implications of the Camp Allen statement.  You apparently believe that the statement “We pledge ourselves to work with our Episcopal colleagues to care for all God’s people in our dioceses…” is not inconsistent with a short term intention to work for a seperate ecclesiastical body.  I believe most people would reasonably view that statement much differently, particulary when it is compared, as Matt has done, to prior Network statements.
God did feed his people in the desert. But I submit a better analogy is found later in the Old Testament. God, working largely through the Global South Primates and a few faithful US leaders, has put orthodox Anglicans on the edge of the Promised Land, the border of Canaan.  Some of our members have been sent out to plan the next step at Camp Allen and elsewhere. But like in Moses time, only a minority of those sent out to scout the new territory apparently believe it is possible, at least in the short term, to go there. The risk (e.g., loss of salaries, pensions, buildings, etc. ) appears to be just too great.
Perhaps that is why the Global South, with few worldly assets to lose, can issue a proclaimation that inspires comparisons to Lincoln, while the Camp Allen declaration is more reminisent of his predessor, James Buchanan (“What is right and what is practicable are two different things.”)

[88] Posted by Going Home on 09-26-2006 at 04:41 PM • top

Matt,

You quote and respond:

“Too many folks looked to this document with preconceived expectations.  When those were shattered, the gloom and doom came into play. “

It is simply not true. I don’t know of anyone who really expected a miracle at Camp Allen. I did not expect it to be the step back from the March 05 statement that it was, but I was not at all expecting much from a meeting of this nature.

In fact you note your expectation as follows:

Dallasite:

Again, I don’t think anyone expected a statement of secession. We did expect, and rightly so, a statement that took seriously the need for an alternative structure in America and at the very least agreed with the primates estimation with regard to this.

Posting #38, Episcopal bishops meeting in Texas send letter to House of Bishops, T19, September 22, 2006.

My statement does not say or imply that an expectation existed in many for a miracle.  I made no comment on what the expectations might be.  In reading your expectation and those of others as you answer Dallasite, I believe some might contend that your expectation was indeed for a miracle: the miracle that a broader than ACN base of Bishops such as those at Camp Allen might make some reference to the need for “an alternative structure in America”.

I have tossed out several postings which ask us to reflect on the process we individually and collectively undertake in analyzing events.  I am particularly concerned as this pertains to our bishops and the spiritual ramifications as we engage in such a process.

In regards to comparing the CA statement to other WR bishop’s statements,

I do not look at the CA Statement in comparison with other WR Bishops’ statements because that was not the intent of the CA bishops in meeting or in crafting this document.  I look at it in the context within which they have made the Statement.  I believe that was well outlined in Greg’s interview with Bishop Iker. 

I pray you have not considered me too harsh in my response.

[89] Posted by richardc on 09-26-2006 at 04:58 PM • top

Alarum bells, ringing…..  “I do not look at the CA Statement in comparison with other WR Bishops’ statements because that was not the intent of the CA bishops in meeting or in crafting this document.  I look at it in the context within which they have made the Statement.”

Just substitute “scripture for statement and or document…
You’ll understand…
Grannie G.

[90] Posted by Grandmother on 09-26-2006 at 05:02 PM • top

Timothy,

The only problem I have with your reference to the promised land is with regard to who was sent out.  In the OT story, 12 spies were sent forth.  We know that eventually, two were selected leaders. 

I can appreciate that some are suggesting timidity on the part of some of our leaders.  Your analogy may be valid.  My concern deals primarily in trying to discern when this crosses into the old testament concept of murmuring in the desert.  Its a tough line to identify.  Even more difficult is identifying who has the spiritual authority to call into question the judgements of those called to lead. 

Is there a place for raising this concern?  Is is a valid issue to hash out in the context of the issue at hand?

[91] Posted by richardc on 09-26-2006 at 05:06 PM • top

Richardc,

I think the two quotes you place in juxtaposition actually demonstrate my point. The March 2005 statement noted that the WR bishops considered their differences with the rest of TEC to be “irreconcilable differences.” That statement at the very least acknowledged/took seriously the need for an alternative structure in America. The CA statement is quite a step back from this stance as the interview with +Alaska demonstrates.

[92] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-26-2006 at 06:10 PM • top

Matt,
I do not disagree with your statement that the March 2005 statement noted irrenconcilable differences with TEC.  What you fail to grasp is that while there is a difference in the statements made by bishops who signed onto the March 2005 Statement and the CA Statement, the differences are apples and oranges. 

Despite their sharing many common contributors, they are not identical.  They are different because they are made in different contexts for different purposes.  One does not negate, invalid, or diminish the other!  I understand that you believe the CA Statement would appear to be a step back.  If the players and context and purposes of the statements were the same, I would concur with your analysis.  However, as they are not the same, your conclusions are not plausible. 

I wish the players had been the same or that the bishops who drafted the CA Statement could have come forth with stronger language.  However, that did not happen.  I accept our bishops’ explanations as to the factors which weighed in contextually which subsequently prevented a stronger statement. 

This statement is a strong statement when you consider that it represents the best responses by the most bishops within TEC.  It says to the ABC,  - do you see the state of TEC?  Its spiritual poverty is such that only 21 Bishops were found to sign onto what some believe to be a diluted statement.  How sad.  This is why we need reform.  This is why we need a Windsor Compliant Province in North America in communion with the rest of the AC.  Does any of this make sense?

The inability to see this subtlety is colored by the very preconceptions I already addressed.  These expectations color the statement as a step back for the cause.  We brought more bishops on board.  When they did not make a bolder statement than 2005, we pounded the heads of those whom we expected ought to have known better for allowing a “diluted” statement.  That perspective/analysis is the flawed byproduct of a flawed methodology for analysis.  We need to own up to that otherwise, we fail ourselves.  It is not a reflection of you.  It is a reflection on us all.

[93] Posted by richardc on 09-26-2006 at 07:17 PM • top

“We pledge ourselves to work with our Episcopal colleagues to care for all God’s people in our dioceses…”  I believe this is indeed the work that should be done, helping to inform those who are still receiving disinformation in their own parishes.  This mission that is mentioned is to the great “majority” in the church, of whom ++Williams spoke recently with compassion, who still need to be delivered.  I am still rejoicing at the Camp Allen statement and I say BRAVO to +Wolfe and all others who joined in our cause.  It’s true it was not an action paper but a statement of principles, and that was appropriate as an answer to the Windsor Report which had NOT been given at GC 2006.  I still can’t understand the negative reception of it.  It seems apparent that it follows the plan suggested by Canterbury.  Why would we want to do anything different?

[94] Posted by Paula on 09-26-2006 at 07:30 PM • top

Thank you, Paula. I think you have it. I too welcome +Wolfe as long as she can sign on to the four condiitions. Just the fact she was here is evidenence in my mind that she has repented of her vote for VGR. There is no reason we should require her to do a mea culpa in the public square. Her presence in CA is quite enough.

[95] Posted by Gulfstream on 09-26-2006 at 08:23 PM • top

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