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Why I’m Not Remotely Distressed Over the Camp Allen Statement

Thursday, September 28, 2006 • 12:11 am

As a first meeting of this group, they are *light years* behind the Network bishops on community building, purpose statements, communication, trust, and action.  They have a long ways to go before they have achieved any sort of community of purpose.  And yet, it appears to me in reading the comments, that my Anglican-allies-in-theology desired that this group of bishops LEAPFROG over even the Network bishops and make statements and commitments far beyond those same Network bishops, which is a smaller and more cohesive group, and certainly far beyond the abilities of the “Windsor” bishops.  I have to wonder what were people smoking that they expected that a larger group of bishops, hesitantly moving forward together, would make some bold pronouncement committing themselves to stating that they desire to leave ECUSA and be in a separate province, when a smaller group of bishops, the Network bishops, has not done so?


Friday afternoon of last week—when all heaven broke loose in Anglican newsland—I had the sad misfortune of actually having to work . . . unlike it seems, most Episcopalians that day.  I traveled five hours to a business meeting in the deep South, and came back late late Saturday night and have kept my hand feverishly to the plow ever since.

As a result, I have missed almost all the comments on this and other blogs concerning the Camp Allen meeting.  I was able to snatch a read of Matt Kennedy’s analysis early on Saturday morning, before my run [missed a turn on the trail and thus went on for way too long] and my meeting that day. And then caught a number of comments over on Kendall’s blog.

I could not help but note the gnashing of teeth, and hurling of sackcloth, and pouring of ashes that my fellow orthodox commenters were indulging in, and was very suprised at it.  People were over in corners, sawing on their veins and committing hara kiri with a vengeance. 

And when Matt stated that he could not be his usual optimistic self about the news, I knew that it was all up to me to inject a note of sunshine, blue skies, and scudding white clouds ino the picture! 

Yes . . . it was all on me to be . . . The Optimist.  ; > ) 

[Uh oh.  Those who know me recognize that this means that the conservative Anglicans are doomed—my life is about grinding realism and bleak despair, while stoically doing one’s duty, not sunny optimism.]

I have been unrelentingly and publicly pessimistic over the past two long years about the possibility of Rowan Williams “taking an action”.  My thesis has always been that he is willing to speak a whole lot, but unwilling to act, and hopes for the longest delay possible before any sort of culminating action takes place.  My current belief is that he intends to attempt to merge together the disciplinary process with the covenant process and thus draw out the whole thing infinitely longer.

When the Windsor Report came out, I believed that it was a good and solid report that focused unrelentingly on the real issue of the Anglican Communion—our lack of ability to discipline provinces that engage in grossly heretical actions.

But I told several at the time that the Great Victory that Rowan Williams won in that report—THE GREAT VICTORY—was a two year delay.  All of the intervening time between the release of the report and the Episcopal General Convention was essentially the carrying out of “make work” and “preliminaries” and fairly pointless from an ecclesial point of view.  Most watchers knew this and some pointed it out over and over, despite our reasserting side’s continually desiring to look to the next meeting three months down the road as a “culminating point”.  But no . . . Rowan achieved a delay of two years.

This delay was to serve as a means of softening the stances of both sides.

That softening—on either side—did not occur.  Instead, many reasserters—including me—once we decided to hang on for the long term, also decided to take that time to engage in fruitful and thoughtful work with our fellow allies.  The result was that two years later, our networks, communicaions, alliances, and efforts are greatly strengthened and broadened.  In the meantime, the two sides within ECUSA are further polarized.

Before I churn through my thoughts on the Camp Allen meeting, I need to state three things:

1) My thoughts are not in any way in response to the many comments that I have *not* been able to read.  They are simply my musings on the event, without reference to articles, analysis, or commenting.
2) I am vaguely aware of some fol de rol regarding Matt’s article.  Sounds as if one fact he maintained was off—but I do not believe that fact really affected his analysis and I suspect that those who have denounced the article mainly don’t like his analysis—his clear stance based on his own constantly and consistently stated values and principles over the past year—but are using the “off fact” as the “reason” for their dislike of the analysis.  I do not agree with Matt’s analysis, but my own thoughts in this article are not meant to respond to his analysis any more than any other analysis out there on the web.
3) I am proud to be friends and allies with Greg, Matt, Jackie, and Andy, along with many other various commenters, bloggers, and orthodox Anglican thinkers and writers.  Their demonstrated courage, integrity, cleverness, and the willingness to engage in brutishly hard work on principle have continually and pleasantly surprised me [remember—I’m a pessimist!].  I have enormous respect for them, and recognize that God has blessed me by bringing me into their paths.  Everyone of us will make errors and mistakes on a daily basis but our character is determined and demonstrated by our admissions and amends for any errors we discover, while maintaining with integrity and consistency and honor the stated principles and values that we hold to be the truth. 

On to my thoughts about Camp Allen.

The Meeting

The strength of the meeting is that it took place, and took place publicly, with 21 Episcopal bishops and two Church of England bishops who are serving as liaisons to the Archbishop of Canterbury.  No shootings or pie-throwing took place. 

This meeting was a “first meeting” of those bishops who were 1) adhering to a strict criteria for admission, 2) interested in a set purpose [remaining within the Anglican Communion, and 3) meeting officially with representatives of Canterbury.  It was a *closed meeting* to which not all ECUSA bishops were welcomed, although all were invited who could adhere to the criteria. 

As a first meeting of this group, they are *light years* behind the Network bishops on community building, purpose statements, communication, trust, and action.  They have a long ways to go before they have achieved any sort of community of purpose.  And yet, it appears to me in reading the comments, that my Anglican-allies-in-theology desired that this group of bishops LEAPFROG over even the Network bishops and make statements and commitments far beyond those same Network bishops, which is a smaller and more cohesive group, and certainly far beyond the abilities of the “Windsor” bishops.  I have to wonder what were people smoking that they expected that a larger group of bishops, hesitantly moving forward together, would make some bold pronouncement committing themselves to stating that they desire to leave ECUSA and be in a separate province, when a smaller group of bishops, the Network bishops, has not done so?

Do we no longer take into account human psychology, past behaviors, or reasonable analysis in our expectations?

Those who attended and signed their name to a document were courageous to do so.  They did something very much out of their own “comfort zone”.  Their attendance at the Camp Allen meeting can seem nothing more than an act of defiance and “breaking ranks” by certain bishops of the House of Bishops.  And *especially* so by the sole female bishop in attendance, who attended and signed a solid statement that placed her in contention with certain other of her peers in the House of Bishops.  Both “yes voting” bishops that signed the statement were extraordinarily courageous and they have demonstrated their commitment to the Communion and the Windsor Report in contradiction to the 60 some various other bishops who hold revisionist theology and voted yes to approve of Gene Robinson.

The Statement

Any statement that was issued, to my mind, was solely “icing on the cake” and had the meeting not issued a statement at all, the meeting would have been, from my perspective, a pronounced success.

Here we need to think about whether they needed to issue a statement at all.  This meeting was a consultation of those bishops who adhered to four criteria for the meeting, and who wished to be with one another, take counsel together, and hear from two respected bishops of the Church of England, while also communicating their group’s intentions to the Archbishop of Canterbury.  Their issuing a statement about such a consultation was, in one sense, somewhat odd.  I attend “consultations” all the time: board meetings, steering committees, business meetings, consulting assignments, and on and on.  But when our steering committee for Mere Anglicanism, for instance, completes its “Steering Committee” meeting, we do not issue a statement of all that we have decided that we *wish to do and hope to accomplish*.  Yet these bishops of the Camp Allen meeting did so.

In light of the above facts, I would ask all of us to recall all the various “statements” of the Network which have *also* caused much weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth by the orthodox.  Does anyone also recall the advent of the Primates statement after their emergency Primates meeting?  Does anyone recall the very first communication by the Network bishops?  Both—and many more such statements, including the Windsor Report and the Dromantine Communique—were picked to the bone by the carrion, namely us.  Some turned out to produce much fruit, others very little.

Some have also pointed out that the statement essentially serves as the sort of statement that it would have been nice to have heard from the General Convention: regret, commitment to the principles of Windsor, submission to the authority of scripture, and an acknowledgement of Christ as the way, the truth, and the life, the way of salvation. 

But I like to think of it as the first statement of an alternate grouping of ECUSA bishops—a house of bishops, to be precise.

The Strategy

From the document, I also got the sense that these bishops are holding out for the real thing: a disciplined, ordered Communion. with a disciplined, ordered ECUSA.  I am glad that they did not call for an interim, separate province.  Such a call would be disaster, as it would take the pressure off of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Primates to make a very hard choice.

As it stands now, the choices are as follows.  1) Discipline ECUSA to save the Communion or 2) allow ECUSA to continue its merry way, and lose the Communion as we know it.  The choices are stark and clear and very stressful to make.  But we should not doubt for a moment that, were there to come into existence an alternate, interim provincial structure for the embattled orthodox ECUSAns—in effect, a third choice—the pressure would be considerably lessened to Make The Choice.

I am even concerned about a “representative” bishop to serve as an alternate at the Primates Meeting, since it de facto seems to set up two structures within one meeting. 

Were two structures within one region, both in communion with Canterbury, for however temporary a time, to be developed . . . I have little doubt that many would announce merrily “see, this isn’t so bad—let’s go on like this until we are all reconciled in common mission and ministry.”

The end would be worse than the beginning.


The Network Bishops

I trust the Network bishops.  I do not for a moment believe that their position, their stated stances and mission, are weakened by meeting with other bishops who may be less firm, purposeful, or stalwart.  Frankly, I think that the Network bishops were *kind and gracious* to meet with the other Windsor bishops, and I think it most unlikely—considering that two of the Network bishops held firm at the New York meeting, even when offered a kingdom to rule over if they abandoned the orthodox parishes in non-Network dioceses—that they have come this far only to sell us all down the river.  The Network bishops, by the grace of God, have never yet abandoned one another in their cause, despite the fact that even so small a group may not always agree on strategy or tactics.  During more than two years of extreme stress, they have not caved and they have not fragmented.

The Kigali Statement

The strength of the Kigali statement was that 1) it was clearly [and surprisingly to some of our Worthy Opponents] communion-minded, 2) it places pressure for action on the instruments of unity within the Anglican Communion, especially the Primates as a whole, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, 3) it offers a practical means of differentiating the Windsor and Network bishops from the majority bishops of ECUSA by asking for a primatial representative in the councils of the Communion [although I pointed out above my concerns about this practical differentiation], and 4) it unifies the orthodox Primates around a baseline statement of requests.  [Note that I stated “orthodox Primates” since some Primates within the region of the “South” are not.]

And here, I need to point out that, in fact, the Global South Primates are, smartly, using precisely the same model as the Camp Allen model, in one sense.  They are not demanding as much as the most fervent and active of the Primates, but are merely creating a baseline around which all the orthodox Primates may agree and unify.  Thus, there were no statements about *what would happen* should their requests not be met, in part I suspect because there is not agreement and unity on what the Primates would do and in part because it is in fact meant to be a moderate and gracious statement.  And the statement did not announce what many liberal reappraisers had speculated and loudly predicted would occur prior to the meeting. 

Some reappraisers have opined that Archbishop Akinola was “reined in” by more moderate Archbishops.  I would opine that Archbishop Akinola is . . . a smart and strategic man whom they are sorely underestimating.  ; > )

No, the Kigali statement was *so gentle* that my only fear is that Rowan Williams will not recognize any *consequences* should he refuse to act.  That lack of consequences—the lack of perceived pain—may lead to further delay and hopes for appeasement. 

But again, at the end of the day, both the Kigali statement and the Camp Allen statement sought a baseline of agreement and unification amongst the participants, plus placed pressure on those they had influence over [the Primates/ABC and the ECUSA HOB respectively], and made no mention of consequences should no action occur.


Three Principles That We Still Need To Learn

As I look at the scope of the flood of comments [though incomplete] that I have read from my allies, three principles spring to mind that I believe we should consider.

1) We are wrongly expecting others to make decisions that will make our own decisions as Episcopalians easier and simpler and less painful.  I, as a person who is staying within ECUSA as best as I am able, and working hard while I am staying, long to no longer be bound to a national church that does not believe or promote the gospel.  There is no spinning that simple fact.  Our national leaders, in vast majority, do not believe or promote the gospel of Jesus Christ.  It is very painful to be a part of a church whose national leaders are like this.  It is, in fact, a repellant thing and has dire and practical consequences which I have spelled out elsewhere.

Others who are leaving ECUSA due to conscience or convenience or responsibility long to have their relationship with the Anglican Communion solidified and clarified.  They want a body to belong to that is an “alternate” provincial structure in the Communion, just as much as I also think that my life would be easier with that solution.

But I believe that it is a false solution, one that trades an easier row to hoe for now for an even more tangled, indecisive mess of a communion later.  It is a mess of pottage as the substitute for The Real Thing, the birthright, and I pray that God will keep the choices that we must consider very stark, very clear, and very uncompromising, for those choices will also, ultimately, be very similar to the Primates and the Archbishop of Canterbury’s choices.

2) We seem to have little confidence in our own leaders’ direction and purposefulness and commitment.  Confidence means being calm and secure in including others in consultations with us, sure in the knowledge that, though we may learn from our more moderate allies, we will continue steadfastly in our chosen direction.  Talking with others, consulting with others, listening to others, even signing statements with others, does not mean that our own plans will not continue or that we will be any less sure or strategically minded.  Talking, consulting, listening means nothing more and nothing less.  Refusing to be a part of such groups indicates, to me, a lack of confidence in our own identity.  That lack of confidence may be accurately based on true lack and weakness, but if so, then that means we should strengthen our own identity, not closet ourselves away and refuse to mix it up with others.

3) We have not yet grasped the principle that small victories always must come before big victories.  We want the Big Victory NOW.  But in reality, Big Victories are preceded by breaking up the journey into small segments and tackling those segments with vigor, one at a time.

As conservatives, we tend to be highly idealistic.  If we “compromise” attaining our Big Victory Now, we tend to imagine that we have compromised the core of our being, rather than behaved strategically.  But our Worthy Opponents are well able to understand that a small resolution here, a little gathering there, an insignificant committee elsewhere all add up to small victories, which down the road have led to their Big Victory.  Such small victories are not Fatal Hypocritical Compromises but are merely the steps on the road to a larger and greater destination.

Let’s face it.  Either the Camp Allen bishops will fall apart, dwindle, melt down under 815 pressure and bullying, and ultimately cave . . . or the Camp Allen bishops will grow strong, gain a few more in numbers and gain a whole lot in identity and purpose and confidence.  It will progress into a stronger coalition.

Only one of those two things will happen.  In the case of the former, then we will all be able to look back at this meeting, shake our heads mournfully, and say “remember those poor old Camp Allen bishops—boy were they out of their league—what a failure.”  Or . . . in the case of the latter, we will say “ah, the beginning of something wonderful and grand—that was that inaugural Camp Allen meeting—thank God those folks met and tried”.

Either the Camp Allen bishops are on their way to a Grand Failure or a Grand Success.

If a Grand Success, we should have no doubt that this meeting was certainly a small victory that preceeded a big victory.  It was an inaugural, careful, cohesive, smallish group that met and issued a statement and communicated with one another and the representatives from the Church of England and began to form their identity.  The group didn’t act ugly to one another or claw one another’s eyes out.  If this was a small victory, we will toast their cleverness and boldness some time in the future.

But, as with all defeats and victories, only time will tell which it was. 


Finale: Courage, Honor, & Risk-Taking

In conclusion, I have to admit that the comments of the last week left me sad, surprised, and disheartened with . . . Us. 

What is wrong with us?  Do we really expect it to be easy?  Are we so spoiled that we act like small children making demands of God . . . or of people who are clearly not able or willing to make the decisions that we desire?

In my opinion, the comments, the despair, the complaints and laments, the predictions of doom were unbecoming; they *may* or may not have been truthful—but they were still unbecoming. 

They were not befitting Roistering Episcopal Adventurers.  We did not hold our heads up high and take the gifts—great gifts and unexpected treasures—offered us last week with grace and humility.  We did not behave like the honorable, courageous, steadfast, considered, statesmanlike soldiers that we are supposed to learn to become.  Instead we pawed through the gifts like greedy children, held them up to the light, critiqued them, and demanded more and better—as if we were somehow deserving, as if we had somehow earned them.

God forbid that any of us ever get thrown to the lions. 

If that were to happen, pagan newspapers will certainly not write grudging articles of respect for the way we carried ourselves in suffering and martyrdom in the arena.  Instead there will be headlines about how utterly ignominious and whiny and vain we all were, as we died, surprised and pettish.  ; < (  Hopefully that is why we have never—any of us—had to endure that; it’s not as if anyone would become converted while observing us American Episcopalians suffer in our little church with our little demands and complaints and expectations.

The one word that has rung through my mind over the past days as I drove madly around from one place to another and considered all the cumulative comments and thoughts was a very non-politically correct word.  It was . . . “pah!!!”

“Pah!”  And maybe “faugh!”  It’s the sort of word that perhaps Puddleglum the Marshwiggle would have used in the Chronicles of Narnia, or Gimli the dwarf in The Lord of the Rings.

I just wish that we could at least behave with some dignity and honor and nobility, even when we [falsely] think that we are defeated in a battle [which is not the war].

Beyond all of that, I have to tip my hat to the moderate Windsor bishops who showed up and strove to “take an action.”  It may not have been the bold, lion-hearted action that I would have loved.  But it was an effort to take an action.  And heaven knows that even the *risk* of making an attempt at taking an action is generally deemed to be too much for most of our Episcopal leaders.

As the reasserting minority, we have cried out for some of the “moderates” to actually try to make a stab at doing something.  And they did make a stab, however feeble.  And it was a start at something that may turn into a victory or a defeat. 

But in general, when a “moderate” and generally inactive person steps up and does something—however clumsy, or ill-formed, or ill-spoken—whether it is a bumbling and slightly incoherent speech at a convention, or a meek stab at stating some sort of traditional view of theology, or writing a resolution, or standing for an elected position somewhere it *is* actually a movement and an attempt.  And the first thing that they should experience is some sort of “well done” or “nice try” or “thanks for the attempt” when they make a slight movement in the right direction.  Any action is incredibly risky: action opens oneself up for criticism, for failure, for humiliation, and of course, from slings and arrows from the other side.  It is risky to actually try to do something, and especially so for moderates. 

Yet . . . if a moderate *does* take an action . . . he is officially in my books, no longer a moderate at all.  He has crossed a line or a border or a bridge of no return.

Though I have grave doubts that any Camp Allen bishop will read these words, I will say that perhaps my “optimism” about their efforts, though, could be deemed somewhat lowering to the Camp Allen bishops.  For I had very low expectations of them.  Those low expectations—believing that they would generally behave as they have always done, with perhaps a slight improvement—kept me well insulated from hope for big actions and big statements. 

For there was one last thing I thought all last week.

All of the sound and fury that we expended last week in critiquing their efforts actually . . . gave them too much credit and too much power.  To me, the performance—a “nice performance”—should not have received all the rending of the score and stamping on the musical instruments by the angry audience, but should rather have received some polite applause, gracious but reserved words, and attention promptly removed to the more global Kigali statement.

I think it would have placed their efforts in the proper perspective—a “well done” and “good show”, but an acknowledgement that they are behind the wave of history, and not in advance of it.

And I certainly believe that it would have spoken better of us, erstwhile Roistering Episcopal Adventurers that we are.


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Comments:

Roister on, Sister!  Many of your comments about “our side” were on target, in my opinion.  I’ll raise my glass high during the celebration of the Grand Success when you are praised for your efforts.  Then I’ll strip my sleeves, turn to my neighbor and say, “these wounds…”

[1] Posted by Widening Gyre on 09-28-2006 at 07:28 AM • top

This is really good Sarah.

[2] Posted by Peter Frank on 09-28-2006 at 08:02 AM • top

Well done, Sarah.  polite applause follows.

[3] Posted by terebinth on 09-28-2006 at 08:21 AM • top

Good words, great reminder.  Thank you.

[4] Posted by JackieB on 09-28-2006 at 08:28 AM • top

Excellent stuff.  Not that I need some affirmation, but over a week ago when the criticism of CA was pouring out, I wrote and received little comment:

” Maybe I’m too naive to understand all the negative comments.  If a group of bishops say:  we affirm Windsor; Lambeth 1.10 is the teaching of the church; Jesus is the way, the truth and the life—all the stuff GC 2006 couldn’t swallow—what’s the problem?  This is what the GS leaders want to hear.  +Duncan has said “we are the Episcopal church in waiting” and Kigali said “it’s time to recognize a new Anglican presence in the US” —why are those seen by so many of you as contrary views?  All of us sideline/Monday morning quarterbacks maybe ought to stop the chatter, give thanks to God for faithful leaders in GS and ACN, and stay in prayer.  I am encouraged by both statements, especially by Kigali, and quite willing to wait for the February primates meeting in trust that God is in control.”

[5] Posted by hanks on 09-28-2006 at 08:35 AM • top

Thank you, Sarah.  I, for one, am glad (!!!) that you were too busy driving all over the country, attending all those meetings, taking all those runs to be a part of the rumblingsand grumblings that were heard here on Stand firm and elsewhere.  Had you not been ‘away’, you might not have been able to write as objective, clear-headed and frankly inspiring a post.  Just think, the Lord made sure you were busy!  I think Gandalf or Galadriel said at one point in the LOTR, “We stand on the edge”.  If they didn’t quite say that, those would have been the sort of words they would have used.  I think you are right.  It is a momentous time, a defining moment (years maybe?). And the stakes are as high as they have ever been. Anyway, thanks again.
Bill

[6] Posted by Bill C on 09-28-2006 at 08:38 AM • top

I say again, Bravo to +Wolfe and the others who joined our cause at Camp Allen!  They knew, and we should remind ourselves, that they were acting in communication with Canterbury.  This seems not to be remembered widely but can not be refuted.  I join Sarah in being glad that we are waiting for the fullness of time when our legitimacy will become apparent, not settling for some ambiguous interim action.  There are still many (++Williams called them a “majority”) within the Episcopal Church who need to be delivered from the disinformation and silence they are fed.  This success at Camp Allen should help to inform them of a better way.  It is God who is bringing about a great and mature work in His own time.

[7] Posted by Paula on 09-28-2006 at 09:00 AM • top

Sarah, this is another beautifully written, 100% correct commentary.  Of course, like any conservative Episcopalian, I was profoundly skeptical of the bishops that stepped out following GC03 – skeptical that they would really take the personal risks required to achieve something meaningful, and skeptical, above all, that they would have staying power.
I was wrong.
I have been amazed at these bishops of the Network, the Global South and, yes, Camp Allen.  The Network has methodically and carefully taken the right steps over these last three years.  It’s done remarkable things, things which deserved far more commentary than they received: created ARDF, created an alternative pension plan, stitched together Anglican groups that otherwise made it a point of pride to hold each other at arm’s length and drafted a statement of unifying theology (when’s the last time Anglicans have done that?).
The Global South has stood firm lo these many months and years and produced carefully written, communion-minded statements that nonetheless placed definite stakes in the ground – all the while being ridiculed by ECUSA types as half-naked, superstitious savages that still have fifteen wives and handle snakes for liturgy.
And now, some bishops formerly too timid to stand up against 815 have signed their names to a statement that flatly says to ECUSA, you are wrong.  You screwed up.  You have placed your historic relationship with Canterbury at grave risk.  We want nothing to do with your reckless actions, and we want the rest of the Communion to hear that, loud and clear.
In retrospect, we have been promised, at every step of the way, that these things would happen.  And they are happening.  Be faithful in our Lord Jesus Christ that He is not going to abandon His faithful remnant to the clutches of those that would ridicule Him and His Gospel.

[8] Posted by Phil on 09-28-2006 at 09:36 AM • top

Sarah,

We often muse about what the new/old structure will be, but seldom make anything other than the assumption that it will contain only Anglicans “like us.”  Go back to 1960 or so, which was a time when ECUSA was orthodox to the point of being stodgy.  While nobody questioned the essentials, there was still a range of beliefs and undestandings.  I am reading a book edited by the former ABC George Carey which discusses the problem of deciding on what the “real” Bible says, given the bewildering number of documents which survive, for instance.  If we are lucky, the new structure will also have room for those who, while agreeing on the essentials, may in some ways be more liberal, or conservative, than you or I.  The Camp Allen meeting seems to have been a start in reaching out to those who are “moderates” who can yet meet a minimum standard of Faith.  That is the “big tent” which has been Anglicanism.

Alan

[9] Posted by APB on 09-28-2006 at 09:52 AM • top

Sarah,

A roistering ‘huzzah!’ from sunny South Dakota. 
A very well written and inspired piece; and you are dead right, we have become too involved with the ‘instant gratification’ syndrome that we denounce in others.  Thank you again for your words of waiting encouragement.  May all come to pass as it should, and all will be well.

[10] Posted by Chip Johnson, cj on 09-28-2006 at 09:53 AM • top

Sarah, First class commentary. Thank you.

Let me offer four points that we must remember moving forward:

1.  By their apostacy, TEC’s Bishops have squandered their authority as “elder statesmen” and public pillars of the Christian Faith delivered to us. For me, the behavior of TEC’s Bishops is a kind of betrayal that is not unlike spousal unfaithfulness. Trust and intimacy are very hard to restore. The Network Bishops have been tarred by that betrayal, even though they personally have been loyal to Jesus. Unfortunately, the conservatives view everything any Bishop says now with suspicion. That suspicion will linger.

2. Part of the conservative suspicion of the Camp Allen statement words flows from the abuse of the English language by TEC’s apostate leadership. TEC’s Bishops and clergy increasingly choose words that maximize the ambiguity of their statements or really mean something else. In effect, TEC’s leaders conceal what they really mean. Some, such as the Presiding Bishop, are so good at it that his statements seem to have no meaning whatsoever. Examples:

a. “Process” means postponing making a clear decision while the liberal leadership quietly puts facts on the ground.
b. “Listening” really means delay until the conservatives capitulate to the liberals.
c. “Inclusion” means the liberals win and then supress the conservatives.

I’m sure readers have other examples.

The point is that the Camp Allen statement had some flavor of an ENS press release. That flavor helped trigger the despondent response that you saw.

3. On Friday Matt immediately recognized this danger: that the ABC would find a reason to avoid making the hard decision to “de-recognize” TEC. Matt’s recognition of this danger to the orthodox cause, i.e. that we won’t get a clean break from TEC, was and remains correct. This danger existed no matter what the Camp Allen statement said, and will exist no matter what the Network Bishops do now. We must do what we can to keep the clear decision before the ABC and the Primates.

4. We orthodox will eventually have to realign the American Anglican church ourselves. This will involve personal cost and suffering. As you note, we are lucky that the cost is only hurt feelings and heartache, and not being fed to lions. The Primates, the ABC, no one else can do this for us. We cannot avoid our fate. Like Jesus in Gethsemane, we must do the Father’s will even if we see no future.

[11] Posted by Publius on 09-28-2006 at 09:54 AM • top

Sarah,

Very excellent article. Thank you for your words in my defense as well.

I would agree that, taken by itself in a vacuum, CA could be viewed as a good thing.

But as I argued earlier, viewed in light of past Windsor bishop’s statements, the Kigli Communique, I think it worrisome to say the least. While I did not hope that the assembled bishops…

“would make some bold pronouncement committing themselves to stating that they desire to leave ECUSA and be in a separate province…”

I did hope they would not step back from the very minimal expression of the 05 letter to the ABC which articulated the fact that the differences between Windsor bishops and the rest of TEC were irreconcilable.

If the bishops at Camp Allen had merely repeated this or, even, said nothing at all about the rest of TEC, then I would likely share your optimism.

As it stands, it seems they have, unintentionally, given the ABC a reason not to grant the Kigali requests.

I think our biggest disagreement may center on the subject of future frameworks. If you think the Anglican reformation can be accomplished within the structural/institutional framework of TEC as currently constituted and while you seek structural relief of some sort, do not think an entirely seperate ecclesial structure an absolute necessity, then the CA statement poses no real problems.

But if you think a seperate ecclesial structure represented by its own ecclesial head is vital to reforming North American Anglicanism, then issues begin to arise.

Anyway, thanks for a great article…it is odd to have this weird role reversal going on though. I’m supposed to be the optimist and Sarah is supposed to come in and crush my hopes with her steely eyed pessimism.

[12] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-28-2006 at 09:54 AM • top

Wonderful post, Sarah. You spoke of ‘Big Victory’ coming from a series of small ones. As a military person (“it is Lawful for a Christian man… to bear Weapons and serve in the Wars”) I recall the great secret of George Washington, who won few small victories, but did win the big one—he kept his army intact. Ours is dwindling away; I almost did, too. Keeping the faithful in the flock becomes very important. Your posting is a huge help to us ‘impatient ones’.

[13] Posted by RichardP on 09-28-2006 at 10:07 AM • top

Sarah, I sincerely admire your passion for what you believe. You write beautifully, and your message comes through ‘loud and clear’. You are blessed.

Now, for the big ‘HOWEVER’!

My question would be, “How long do we stay and continue to fight while our church continues to lose good conservative members to other denominations or (even worse) to no church at all? Membership in TEC is dwindling at a rapid pace. Our Parish has been hurt badly by all the politics, in spite of the fact that we are blesses with a wonderful, committed orthodox Rector. When is enough, enough?

[14] Posted by Doug Atkin on 09-28-2006 at 10:12 AM • top

Sarah,
I like the way you write.  Strong.  Assertive.  Bold.  It is compelling and I really, really, really want to agree with you.  I wish the bishops would learn to lead like that!

But you say in your treatise that the bishops are moving hestitantly…  Indeed they are.  And THAT will be the downfall of the Windsor/Network coalition.  They need to move like you write!  And they don’t.  They test the waters like politicos.  They send signals via back-channels.  They throw in a bold statement (We support…) and follow it with a tepid remark about staying as a dynamic presence within ECUSA.

[15] Posted by DHR on 09-28-2006 at 10:14 AM • top

Thanks so much for writing this Sarah - excellent essay!  I do think it’s great news that Bishop Wolfe was there - now laying to rest the absurd idea that this division could be called anti-women.  Rhode Island has always been a maverick and Bishop Wolfe shows courage to stand with the Windsor Bishops.

bb, graduate of Roger Williams University and former member of Trinity Newport (hi Lorne!).

BabyBlueOnline - where the sun is always out, even when we’re blue and wearing our tinfoil hats.wink

[16] Posted by BabyBlue on 09-28-2006 at 10:19 AM • top

DHR, Therein lies the problem! Our Bishops have given us nothing of substance on which to hang our hopes, and we can hear it in every word they say. We seek salvation, they seek semantics.

[17] Posted by Doug Atkin on 09-28-2006 at 10:21 AM • top

I think Matt is spot on and thus disagree with your conclusions, but the appreciate the well done article, and the spirit behind it.
Writers on this board and elsewhere have used two mutually exclusive arguments to support the CA statement. One view is that CA is a victory because it was a failure—that the fact that so few Bishops were willing to sign even a mild Windsor statement should convince the ABC that he must act radically with the Network and Global South to set up a seperate ecclesastical structure. Your view is that is is a success because a few more Bishops were brought within the fold, even at the expense of a statement of intent that was weaker than that previously stated by the Network folks.
In any event, Mr. Atkin raises a practical point that makes much of this debate academic.  It is a good bet that CC Plano is not going to be the last larger TEC church to leave the fold.  These parishes recognize what he is experincing at his church, that the attrition of faithful church members makes it imperative to act decisively.  I am one of those Anglican allies that would very much like the US to demonstrate the boldness and clarity of its GS brothers and sisters. But its not because I fear losing out of the Communion. The parishes that have left are generally more plugged into the larger Communion now than before, which much more direct communication with the foreign Primates and those that serve under them. They know there is zero chance that this relationship will be diminished except as part of the construction of the seperate ecclesiastical structure within the US that the GS champions.  Most of these parishes had stripped “Episcopal” from their signs even before they left, because they recognized the brand name had, sadly, become the Enron of the Christian world. So it is not that they are fighting to get back the name, or to prove they were right in leaving where they did. They just believe that having been delivered themselves they have an obligation to participate in the rescue of others.

[18] Posted by Going Home on 09-28-2006 at 10:52 AM • top

Thanks for the wonderful article, Sarah. 

I think that was well-said, and the right analysis of the current situation.  As I’ve argued elsewhere, I think a clear-eyed view of recent events add up to a strong case for hope.  The sort of pessimism that says, “Nothing has ever gone right in the past; therefore nothing will ever go right in the future,” I think can actually work against us at present.  Precisely because of the convergence of Canterbury, the Global South, and a substantial number of orthodox American bishops, we have the first REAL chance in decades to actually do something of import.  Patience now can mean real gain in the future.  The global scene points irrevocably towards the recovery of Anglican orthodoxy, thanks to the Covenant process, the Global South, and the rather unexpected blessing of faithful leadership and signs of renewal in the C of E.  (E.g., Williams, Wright, Sentamu, Nazir-Ali, Chartres, and the list goes on.)

It really is unclear, of course, what the Episcopal Church will do.  Some bishops are quite willing to push us off the ship.  Some are just now realizing that there’s a problem, thanks to the New York meeting and the forthright statements by Canterbury and the GS.  I can’t say for sure whether or not we’ll actually be able to be a “faithful witness within the Episcopal Church,” with a true “safe space” and Windsor episcopal/primatial representation at Lambeth.  But now isn’t the time to prejudge the outcome—now is the time to stand our ground as Episcopalians, and firmly, winsomely, gently, insist that we need to live out the integrity of our faith as Windsor-affirming dioceses and parishes of the Episcopal Church. 

An important benefit of this solution, of course, is that it avoids the terribly distracting, painful, and destructive legal battles that would go along with full-stop divorce.  And, it avoids completely separating from our non-Windsor brothers and sisters in ECUSA, many of them serious Christians whom we can continue to converse and fellowship with, in hopes that our Lord will lead us together into all the truth.  And, it means that we will not abandon the countless ordinary parishoners who perhaps don’t quite know what all the fuss is about, and likely will stay in their pews regardless.  For me, it is very important indeed that we not deprive them of the faithful witness of the Windsor dioceses. 

Long-term, this I think gives a real chance for the renewal of the Episcopal Church.  We all know what the demographics look like—where the Gospel is preached, the church thrives; where theo-jargon is preached, the church withers away.  We simply need a safe space to continue preaching the Gospel.  God will take care of the rest.  In time, ECUSA will likely look very different, if we committ ourselves seriously to theological study, mission, raising up young clergy and leadership, and evangelism.  There’s no need to start seprating off or to try to excommunicate people.  Canterbury and the Primates are clearly going to come to a decision quite soon, and given what we know of them, I think we have no reason to do anything but abide by it.  And given what we know of the Gospel of Christ, all we have to do is continue proclaiming it!

[19] Posted by Jordan Hylden on 09-28-2006 at 11:00 AM • top

Well written friend Sarah….  Glad you’re not “distressed”, but one Frank Griswold seems to be as “distressed”, as he ever allows himself to be, there in the ‘field between”..............

Maybe that’s another good result???

Blessings,
Grannie Gloria

[20] Posted by Grandmother on 09-28-2006 at 11:03 AM • top

Well put Sarah, although I do partially disagree. I would illustrate by the example of an old high school buddy of mine. One of his pet peeves was people who sat at intersections without moving after the light turned green. He would always stick his head out the window and yell, “Come on buddy. That light ain’t gonna get any greener.” To me, it looks like we are still sitting at that intersection waiting for the light to get greener. The CA bishops have squandered an opportunity to move us through the intersection and down the road.

I don’t think they have done much actual damage to the cause but they haven’t advanced it any either. A lot of the problem is that the way we see things from the outside may not always be the way they really are (meaning that I admit I may be wrong). This is due to the extraordinary secrecy of the CA meeting. The CA bishops seem to have pulled a page from the 815 playbook about keeping everyone in the dark and then issuing some kind of ambiguous namby-pamby statement. They could do a lot to make everyone feel better about this if they would just be a little more forthcoming.

the snarkster

[21] Posted by the snarkster on 09-28-2006 at 11:05 AM • top

Thank you, Sarah for an excellent article.  Fwiw, I agree with you and Jordan.

[22] Posted by Tony on 09-28-2006 at 11:11 AM • top

Matt Kennedy wrote:

As it stands, it seems they have, unintentionally, given the ABC a reason not to grant the Kigali requests.

There are no Kigali requests.

There is a proposal to let another bishop be present at the Primates’ Meeting in February to represent the bishops in the Episcopal Church requesting APO from the ABC. (Kigali 10b)

The Global South Primates are moving ahead with discussions with the APO-requesting bishops, ABC and “Windsor Bishops” on how best to provide APO. (Kigali 10a)

They are also moving forward with the formation of a separate ecclesiastical structure of the Anglican Communion in the USA. (Kigali 10c)

Perhaps 10b could be considered a request in some sense, but neither 10a nor 10c are.  10a is being done in consultation with the ABC, but is hardly a request.  It’s not even at the request stage, if it comes to that.

If the 10b proposal is rejected or not acted upon, there will be a number of GS primates who will forego the February Primates’ Meeting.  That would be a serious thing, and I think having another bishop present would be a small concession to hold things together a little longer.

The ABC has long known, ever since the election of Jefferts Schori, that the conditions described in 10b would obtain, so this is not unexpected, and is relatively mild compared to what they might have done.  The ABC already has given a mild warning to the Episcopal Church because of what’s described in 10b.  The ABC has already demonstrated some sympathy with the concerns of 10b.

I am not the least bit worried about anything tied to the Episcopal Church derailing anything in Kigali 10.

I may be too optimistic, but I think the Episcopal Church, because of its constant and continuing flouting of the norms, standards and teachings of the Anglican Communion, has lost its ability to derail the Anglican Communion anymore.

[23] Posted by Randy Muller on 09-28-2006 at 11:23 AM • top

Randy, I think your distinction: “requests” v. “proposals” is a distinction without a difference. I would be happy to call them suggestions.

I’m not sure it makes that much difference. The GS has suggested a way forward that includes cooperation of the ABC. He has not yet given his consent.

If he were to look for a reason to deny the proposals/suggestions/requests of Kigali, and I think he would be happy to find one, Camp Allen gives him plenty of warrent. Why provide what has not been asked for?

[24] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-28-2006 at 11:50 AM • top

Hooray, Sarah, for thinking clearly and calling us to account for our own behavior.  You are a blessing. smile

[25] Posted by Connie Sandlin on 09-28-2006 at 11:55 AM • top

Matt,
Your refrain here includes some bold assumptions of its own; at least one and possibly two:

Namely, that the CA bishops did not make the Kigali request to the ABC.  Is it too difficult to imagine that +Wright might have had something more to say to ++Rowan than the CA statement?  Public statements are for public consumption; but when one has the ear of the Archbishop of Canterbury, you will likely confide more than what you can say publicly. 

In other words, your whole argument seems built on the assumption that public statements are the main place to state requests.  I find it a dubious assumption, particularly in light of the political situation we are in.  Schism is likely not to fly very well in England; but getting the progressive leadership of TEC painted into a corner of non-compliance with the wishes of the Communion, that does have genuine force to it. 

Right now is just not the time for the kind of action you seem to wish.  For the CA bishops to have publicly done or said more could jeopardize the bigger stakes later on (telegraph their moves to the adversary who could undermine things, for starters).  But I am convinced we will stand in a different time in February (as well as the months leading up to it).  You seem to assume that it is now or never.  And if not now, then it is inevitably a slouching to Gomorrah.

Thank you, Sarah, for articulating a view of things that is built on other, and to my mind, more reasonable assumptions.  To build on your LOTR reference: CA, I believe, may be a tale like Aragorn’s calling the Dead Men of Dunharrow to arms for the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.  In the end, they proved indispensable to victory, even though it seemed risky and to most, a lamentable detour among the dead.

[26] Posted by Steve Lake+ on 09-28-2006 at 12:20 PM • top

Steve,

Thanks, I think maybe you are misreading me. I am NOT at all disappointed that the CA bishops failed to make the Kigli requests. I am disappointed that they stepped back from the quite minimalist “irreconcilable differences” language they used in describing their relationship to the rest of TEC in 2005. That language would have at least bee consistent with the assumption behind the Kigali proposal/requests, that a separate structure is needed.

Second, the reason I am focusing on public statements is becuase this is, like it or not, largely a political game. Certainly there are many things going on beneath the surface. But politically speaking this public statement is a very big thing. In it the Windsor bishops have said they will work within TEC. If the ABC (along with liberal primates) does not want to act on the Kigali proposals, he has all the backing he needs in this letter. You can see the beginning of just such a strategy in the PB’s letter published today. The PB suggests that many Windsor bishops did not understand their presence at CA to be in any way supportive of an extra-structural solution like that advocated in Kigali. Expect to hear this line picked up and used. It was given at CA.

[27] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-28-2006 at 12:43 PM • top

But what if working within TEC looks something like this: recognizing only those Windsor Compliant bishops for Lambeth and their representative at the Primates’ meeting, henceforth?  What that effectively would do is sideline the progressives and they would then be forced to leave TEC and set up their own alternative structure (perhaps, as rumor has it, the Old Catholics in the NL).  I think very much that +Wright, the Fulcrum group, and ACI, for instance, would favor some such arrangement for its places schism where schism is—on the progressive side.

That strategy still seems to me very much in play, and in the long term if not the short, not very different in outcome than the endrun around TEC strategy offered by Kigali.

Correct me if I am wrong here…

[28] Posted by Steve Lake+ on 09-28-2006 at 12:56 PM • top

Steve,

Steve,
The idea of a replacement province is certainly the goal of most Network bishops and orthodox thinkers. That was most certainly not the goal of at least some of those who signed this doc. +MacDonald certainly did not think that to be the case and I doubt many of them beyond the Network did. So, to suggest the word “within” was intended to anticipat such an eventuality takes us far beyond the intended meaning of the text itself. This will no doubt be pointed out by our revisionist and moderate friends.

[29] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-28-2006 at 01:04 PM • top

Steve,

If I might jump into Matt’s mind for a minute (largely because it will help us all get a better grasp of what we are saying)—Matt thinks it is no longer possible to work “within TEC” to orchestrate change.  Thus his and other’s calls for immediate action (at least something other than what CA did).

Some of us here think working within TEC is still possible and thus we were encouraged by CA because it gives credence to our position that if we work on relationships, we can actually bring bishops who supported GC2003 into our camp (at least with respect to Windsor). 

Matt, is that close?

[30] Posted by Widening Gyre on 09-28-2006 at 01:08 PM • top

WG,

Thank you. I think I tried to articulate that earlier in my first response to Sarah’s excellent article, but not as succinctly.

[31] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-28-2006 at 01:11 PM • top

Doug asked, My question would be, “How long do we stay and continue to fight while our church continues to lose good conservative members to other denominations or (even worse) to no church at all?
My answer would be - as long as God calls you to stay.

[32] Posted by JackieB on 09-28-2006 at 01:21 PM • top

Sarah, I always enjoy your writings and much of what you say is on target and valid, but…time is nearly run out for some of us.  I would not begrudge anyone who makes the decision to remain in ECUSA and fight, I have done so for over 3 years.  I was criticized by others who impuned by orthodoxy for staying yoked to unbelievers, so I will not do the same.  I would tell them the Lord wants me to stay and He will tell me when it’s time to go.
I just didn’t know it would hurt so badly.  I love my new parish home, it’s beautiful, the people are friendly and loving, the programs are wonderful, the rector is orthodox and conservative and so is the vestry.  It is filled with people of faithfulness, many with the courage to speak of their frustrations and concerns.  But they are not a Network church, and while this is a Windsor diocese, it is not a Network diocese.
Come November 1, I can no longer be in sacramental relationship within the TEC/ECUSA structure.  I heard the arguments, KJS is no worse than Griswold and if you’ve put up with him, you can put up with her.  But there is a difference, and the loving firmness of the Spirit confirms “It’s time, Gayle, it’s time.”  So do the tears rolling down my cheeks as I write this.
I know I was hoping for an 11th hour reprieve, some magic solution that would allow me to stay.  Like the orthodox Global South primates this has been a very real and personal distraction from doing the Lord’s work.  I won’t pledge because I don’t know if I will be their to honor it.  I’d like to start a Bethel Bible study group, but where?
Just thinking about leaving fills me with guilt.  Guilt feeling like a deserter leaving my post, only to remember that it is my Captain and my King telling me, that it is time for me to leave.  (Oh Lord, let this cup pass from me!)  I feel guilt ridden knowing that I am going to small “continuing” church only to keep my eyes looking behind me, wondering what February holds.  So, I won’t pledge there and I won’t get involved, and that’s wrong.  So the only option left is sleeping in on Sunday’s, and I’ve been doing that far too many times.  It’s easy to understand how some frustrated ex-Episcopalians just become unchurched.
So yes, maybe the comments were harsh, but it was the lack of leadership that got us here.  And maybe the lack of speaking harshly 4, 5, 6 or more years ago, that helped the leadership forget its own pledge and duty.

[33] Posted by Gayle on 09-28-2006 at 01:26 PM • top

Sarah, I very much appreciated the change in tenor that your essay provided…hope and optimism are good things, however you made this statement which seems to be in agreement with what Matt was trying to say…

“I have been unrelentingly and publicly pessimistic over the past two long years about the possibility of Rowan Williams “taking an action”. My thesis has always been that he is willing to speak a whole lot, but unwilling to act, and hopes for the longest delay possible before any sort of culminating action takes place. My current belief is that he intends to attempt to merge together the disciplinary process with the covenant process and thus draw out the whole thing infinitely longer.”

If the Kigali Statement was designed to force Rowan Williams to act now and if the Camp Allen statement gives him reason to continue to seek the long, long, long road home then how do we prevent the attrition which we are experiencing from our orthodox brethren in the days, months, and YEARS to come?  I hoped that Kigali would force the ABC to shorten the time frame in which he is working and I thought that the ACN would come out strongly in support of this approach to keep the pressure on…these hopes were encouraged by Matt…now I seem to be left back where I started…which was with your view of a long process, and my concern that it will accelerate attrition…I don’t think that staying in ECUSA is a viable approach over a long term.

[34] Posted by johnp on 09-28-2006 at 01:28 PM • top

Jackie, Your reply to my question about ‘how long do we stay’ hits the nail on the head. This is all about God, and certainly not about an institution that cares more for its own salvation than ours.

[35] Posted by Doug Atkin on 09-28-2006 at 01:50 PM • top

Gayle,

When you take communion this Sunday, look to your left and your right and ask yourself, “Are these my brothers and sisters in Christ? Is Christ present here with us, in this bread and in this cup? Are we proclaiming the Good News here?”  It sounds like you are in a wonderful parish.  Far be it from me to challenge the Spirit’s moving, but discerning His voice can be difficult sometimes.  I don’t mean to take this thread off-topic so don’t feel the need to respond.

[36] Posted by Widening Gyre on 09-28-2006 at 01:55 PM • top

Gayle: I have to say, your post above really resonates with me. In less than three years, I went from an active, involved, attend every Sunday member of my extremely liberal parish to not going anywhere at all. Where I live, there is no orthodox traditional alternative and I have never believed in “any port in a storm”. Like you, I am sleeping in way too much and hoping for something better. My patience is wearing thin.

the snarkster

[37] Posted by the snarkster on 09-28-2006 at 02:07 PM • top

Divinely inspired Sarah,
You said it all in an early statement:

Everyone of us will make errors and mistakes on a daily basis but our character is determined and demonstrated by our admissions and amends for any errors we discover, while maintaining with integrity and consistency and honor the stated principles and values that we hold to be the truth.

Your clarity and observation are edifying, motivating, assuring, and charitable.  The most important aspect of this piece is that, while assent to your every position isn’t necessary, the gems of wisdom are numerous, and more importantly, invaluable in providing perspective in the continuing effort to maintain fidelity to Scripture and our Lord Jesus Christ. This is a Panoramic view of the effort to achieve that fidelity in an environment that is absorbed in the dissection of every nuance encountered on the path.  While dissection is valuable, the pieces only work as a whole.  May that whole be in the unity of the Holy Spirit!
Blessings,
Wendy

[38] Posted by wportbello on 09-28-2006 at 02:21 PM • top

snarkster - I think K. Kallsen and the Anglican TV crew need to come up with a weekly worship service for isolated folks like you.
It is ghastly that the faithful can be deprived of apostolic teaching, fellowship, sacrament and prayer - not just by one denomination, but by a seeming conspiracy of denominations to keep orthodox tradition out of whole regions.  If they were gas stations, these churches would be acussed of “collusion.”

[39] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 09-28-2006 at 02:22 PM • top

Sarah,

Thank you for taking time out to give us your thoughts on the CA Statement.  During the last week, many of us, primarily Timothy, Tony, hanks and myself tried desperately to give an optimistic view of the CA Statement.  Because this view was diametrically opposed to Matt’s perspective, the hashing out of the issues was poorly understood and the focus became the individuals rather than the meat of the issues.  Your article now has caused a complete turn around in support of an optimistic view of the CA Statement as displayed in the number of accolades your views have received. 

Timothy notes that you and I have proposed the two “mutually exclusive” perspectives on why the CA Statement was a success.  In my argument, I proposed that the smaller numbers of bishops (allbeit larger than ACN bishops) signing onto the dilute CA Statement, sent the ABC the message that this was as good as it gets.  This leaves very little possibility for working within TEC and therefore proceeding with the establishment of an alternate WR compliant Province in North American is the only possibility.  I viewed this as a positive benefit of the CA Statement.  You on the other hand while optimistic as well, believe that this CA Statement and group has the possibility of growing and becoming a positive force.  The addition of several other bishops lends more support to the cause even if the statement doesn’t have all the ingredients we would expect from ACN or the like.

Your optimistic view of a growing CA group of bishops concerns me.  I fear the potential pitfalls.  As I stated, as things stand now in the CA group, the orthodox majority assures that the orthodox will set the tone for the new province.  I am concerned that were the CA group to grow as you suggest could happen, the group may grow with a smaller proportion of theologically conservative bishops to a size which may jeopardize the orthodox voice.  The more centrist perspective would dominant effectively putting orthodox anglicans in the same predicament we are in now.  As you may imagine, my support is for the ACN rather than the CA group although I view their statement in a positive light and wrote extensively on that view. 

Despite this one issue, I thank you for your views.  Those of us who arduously supported the CA Statement over the last week feel tremendously supported by your piece.  Kudos to you.

[40] Posted by richardc on 09-28-2006 at 02:36 PM • top

Widening Gyre said:  When you take communion this Sunday, look to your left and your right and ask yourself, “Are these my brothers and sisters in Christ?
I believe that all people are my brothers and sisters and as a Christian it is my calling to seek to bring them into the brotherhood of Christ.  Just as the Muslim, RC, Methodists and Unitarians are our brothers and sisters and we are called to love and accept them as children of God.  I am not, however, called to worship with the Muslim or the Unitarians because their foundational beliefs are different than mine as a Christian.  And here we have the crux of the matter.  We (used in the royal sense) feel it demeans our worship to claim communion with those who don’t even share the same Gospel.  And this is said with the full knowledge and understanding that I am not called to judge another’s salvation but I am called to discern when the Gospel is not being preached.

[41] Posted by JackieB on 09-28-2006 at 02:57 PM • top

Matt Kennedy wrote:

If he were to look for a reason to deny the proposals/suggestions/requests of Kigali, and I think he would be happy to find one, Camp Allen gives him plenty of warrent. Why provide what has not been asked for?

OK, so are you saying that Camp Allen’s lack of requests or demands is undermining Kigali, which seems to be offering something not requested?

If so, I still don’t agree that CA undermines Kigali.  A subset of CA bishops requested APO, and that request still stands, regardless of CA.  Kigali addressed it in 10b.

It would be better if 21 bishops were requesting APO, and they eventually may.

CA had a completely different purpose:  Providing a public identity both within the Episcopal Church and in the wider Anglican Communion for bishops who wish to be Windsor-compliant, despite the actions of General Convention 2006.

[42] Posted by Randy Muller on 09-28-2006 at 02:58 PM • top

Even the most intrepid observers of the turmoil in
The Episcopal Church may have difficulty sorting out
the conclusions of recent meetings as indication of
what is likely to transpire. But it has become clear
that the orthodox bishops cling to their membership
in the Anglican Communion through TEC.

The principal reasons for this attitude are the desire
to prevent disputes about ownership of property
and to stop defection of parishes to overseas provinces.
What is emerging from the mists is a dual structure.
Rather than geographic boundaries, TEC would be
divided by doctrinal commitment in entire dioceses
and also by parishes within dioceses.

Sounds messy and difficult. But no one has to give
up what they believe, nor jeopardize their pensions
and assets. Other provinces in the Anglican Communion
would no doubt recognize the orthodox body with
alacrity. The status of the “progressive” wing is more
problematical.

[43] Posted by profpk on 09-28-2006 at 03:01 PM • top

Randy,
“OK, so are you saying that Camp Allen’s lack of requests or demands is undermining Kigali, which seems to be offering something not requested?”

I wish that this were so. If only the assembled had not even mentioned their relationship to TEC.

It is their pledge to work “within” TEC and in with their “Episcopal collegues” (I know that the “e” was changed to “E” but that is how the document stands unfortunately) that could provide the liberal primates and the ABC the needed backing to reject Kigali proposal 10c.

[44] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-28-2006 at 03:02 PM • top

<

“I am concerned that were the CA group to grow as you suggest could happen, the group may grow with a smaller proportion of theologically conservative bishops to a size which may jeopardize the orthodox voice.  The more centrist perspective would dominant effectively putting orthodox anglicans in the same predicament we are in now. “

Well, this is one of the risks, is it not.  But perhaps we must trust that the Lord will break these ‘more centrist’ bishops hearts, fill them with conviction and courage, that they will move away from the TEC side.  After all, there are only two real options.  The third is a tougher place to be than either side and is barely a third option at best since they, at some point, must make a decision. Either for the roistering adventurers or for the worthy opponents, in which case they are lost.

[45] Posted by Bill C on 09-28-2006 at 03:09 PM • top

Sarah:  A thoughtful, mature, compassionate, and beautiully presented statement.  I couldn’t agree more.  But how do we reconcile this with the unholy aggressiveness (one might even say viciousness) of the revisionist bishops who are persecuting orthodox parishes and priests?

[46] Posted by PapaJ on 09-28-2006 at 03:17 PM • top

Matt+ said:

It is their pledge to work “within” TEC and in with their “Episcopal collegues” (I know that the “e” was changed to “E” but that is how the document stands unfortunately) that could provide the liberal primates and the ABC the needed backing to reject Kigali proposal 10c.

Something about the “big E vs little e”  statement by +Iker just doesn’t ring true to me. If there was an honest mistake made in the final form of the statement which made a significant change in its meaning, why not issue a clarification and change it back to what it was supposed to be? That has bothered me since the beginning. +Iker seemed to just laugh it off but I wonder if there is not more to it than meets the eye.

the snarkster

[47] Posted by the snarkster on 09-28-2006 at 03:20 PM • top

Since the Camp Allen letter is addressed to “fellow bishops in The Episcopal Church,” of course it refers to the Episcopal Church.  The Network [and Windsor] Bishops have never claimed they are the ones to leave the Church but rather the ones who still are in the Church.  Even if a new province materializes or if the TEC is demoted, these Bishops are certainly within the Church until at least February.  (In the meantime, they have a mission to the misinformed in the Church.)  I don’t see that the letter contains anything but the obvious facts.)  It’s hard for me to see how anybody can argue with this.

[48] Posted by Paula on 09-28-2006 at 03:24 PM • top

Uh, Jackie, I read Gayle’s comments to believe that in her parish, the Gospel (the one you and I both believe to be the Good News) is being preached.  I was suggesting that if the Gospel is being preached, if the good news of the Resurrection is being proclaimed, if the parish is sharing in the fellowship of believers, and you’ve got a Bishop who is standing on the Solid Ground, one should reconsider whether God is calling you elsewhere.  I would love to be in such a place.  But this simply revisits the Plano church discussion which we don’t need to revive. 

On topic, the fact that Bonnie Anderson has now responded to Camp Allen makes me even more encouraged that Aslan is on the move.  Are those jingle bells I hear in the distance?

[49] Posted by Widening Gyre on 09-28-2006 at 03:32 PM • top

Might we consider the Griz’s response to CA and Kingali?

[50] Posted by Tony on 09-28-2006 at 03:37 PM • top

WG - Please forgive the roughness of my response.  I know better and deserve rebuke for the way my words were expressed.  However, the sentiment remains the same.  Being yoked with those who do not share the same Gospel is a terrible burden to carry.  One must explain continuously - no we are not those Episcopalians.  Yes, we believe in the Bible.  Yes, we believe in the resurrection.  And on and on.  Evangelism becomes even more difficult because of the preliminaries.  Our brother Brad Drell has expressed the problems in Kairos.  I have more than one friend who has Kairos as their primary ministry who felt being yoked to ECUSA was a millstone around their neck - and worse a stumbling block to those to whom they sought to minister.  I again repeat the lesson of Peragmum is a real one.  Remember, their rebuke came because of to whom they were yoked.  Regardless, please forgive my harshness. It was not directed at you.
As to the bells, I pray your hearing is perfect.
YSIC,
Jackie

[51] Posted by JackieB on 09-28-2006 at 03:44 PM • top

I have pondered the pros and cons of both DEPO and APO as a solution and have finally come to this conclusion: As long as we remain in TEC, and as long as we are in a diocese that has both orthodox and revisionist parishes, regardless of authority, we ain’t fixed nothin’! I would love to see a separate Anglican entity established for the United States. Let the revisionists go their own way, the orthodox go their own way and the Reformation would be over, once and for all. It is said that history repeats itself.

[52] Posted by Doug Atkin on 09-28-2006 at 04:19 PM • top

Jackie,

I hear you loud and clear.  However, our uneasiness about being in TEC should not be because we don’t want to be associated with “those” people.  Your point on Pergamum is on target.  The tension we live with is Pergamum on the one hand and the example of Christ who was always criticized because of the “despicable” people with whom he socialized.  This is why i say, leave TEC only when you hear the voice of the Shepard lead you out.  Being fed up is not a reason to leave.  He feeds us in the desert and He sets a table for me in the presence of mine enemies. 

I sometimes think God is keeping many of us here so that we get over ourselves.  Yes its difficult being in what so many view as the gay church.  I look at it as sharing in the sufferings of Christ.  Can you imagine what they said about him and Mary Magdalene?

[53] Posted by richardc on 09-28-2006 at 04:24 PM • top

We are fooling ourselves if we think that we are going to reform the TEC into becoming more orthodox and Windsor compliant. The majority of ECUSA just elected a left wing liberal as PB who will be there for the next nine years. She is not going anywhere, and she is not changing. Susan Russell etc are not going anywhere, and are not changing. ECUSA at the GC could not pass a statement that Jesus is the only way to the Father etc. It isn’t going to happen folks, we do not have the votes.

I agree with Matt, the only way to save the orthodox part of ECUSA is a complete split, recognized by the Global South, which hopefully forces the ABC to decide, and let ECUSA go their own way, with whatever consequences that brings for them.

[54] Posted by BillS on 09-28-2006 at 06:23 PM • top

It is not everyday that I am heartened by a letter from +Griswold and discouraged by a post from Sarah.  Today’s the day.

I found Griswold’s letter strangely comforting because he is plainly worried about Camp Allen, Kigali and the possibility that ACI may actually know what they’re talking about.  His odd observations about the precise legal status of Bishops Wright and Scott-Joynt—not delegates and not empowered to say anything other than an incomplete sentence—cause him to avoid addressing entirely the single fear that is foremost in the minds of his readers: that the two bishops conveyed the tentative decision that no ECUSA bishop, including Schori, will participate in the councils of the communion without signing the Camp Allen letter.  Don Armstrong of the nefarious ACI, who appears to have been present in both NYC and Camp Allen, was reasonably clear about this yesterday in a comment on T19: the PB-elect “will never even be seated in the larger councils of our church.”

I found Sarah’s piece discouraging because I disagree with her on one key assumption and I fear the orthodox leadership may be inclined to her view and not mine.  Sarah makes a compelling case that the tide has turned for the orthodox in recent years; her assumption is that it will continue to come in.  I think not.  There’s an old adage: “if you strike at a king you must kill him.”  In a modified way, I think this applies to our current situation.  ECUSA is not a king; in fact it is a dying shell.  But the orthodox forces have been uniquely mobilized over several years for just this moment.  If we don’t strike now, this force will be dissipated; the infantry won’t be there much longer. To borrow a theme from Citizen Kane, the word on the lips of all bigwigs right now, on both sides of the aisle, is not “Rosebud,” but “Roseberry.”  This moment will not come again.

There is a wonderful scene at the beginning of The Iliad in which Agamemnon, surely the worst military leader in the history of warfare, devises a clever ploy to test the morale of the Greek troops.  He suggests to his men, who have been fighting away from homes and wives and children for ten years, that they give up and go home.  He is greeted with an enthusiastic stampede for the ships.  Although he manages to restrain them with the help of wiser leaders, this begins a turn in the war and the besieged Trojans break out, overrun the Greek lines and set fire to the Greek ships.  I hope our leaders are not repeating Agamemnon’s mistake.

[55] Posted by wildfire on 09-28-2006 at 07:29 PM • top

When I write, you should know that I speak from the safety of a small but very fine Baptist church whose minister went through Gordon-Conwell Theo-Sem.  It’s a ways to the nearest orthodox anglican church for my family.  So, it’s very easy for me to enter into these conversations and say my piece when sometimes I feel I don’t have the right.  But I am an Anglican and always have been and that is where my heart lies and I really believe that we/you are in the midst of real trials and tribulations, and that we must do what we must to take care of our souls and those of our children ...but that we must remember that even in the midst of all that is unholy, He is there.  A friend of mine at college, Steve Saint, lost his dad to the Auca indians.  All of these imssiuonaries, the Wycliffe are a great example, lived with their families in danger, in the most primitive of circumstances, far from fellowship and the security they would have loved for their children.  I believe that God takes us through these times and tests us and that we will come through this purified and rejoicing.  My heart goes through times as heavy as many of yours especially when I talk to some of my vicar friends in England.  His will be done and we must be patient, hard though it is.

[56] Posted by Bill C on 09-28-2006 at 07:36 PM • top

I don’t believe that TEC will repent although Jesus is at Grizwald’s side and and at the side of every one of your tormenters ... waiting with arms outstretched.  But their hearts continue to harden like Pharaoh’s ... and our future is not with the Eqyptians, it’s just that the time is not of our choosing and that is hard.

[57] Posted by Bill C on 09-28-2006 at 07:42 PM • top

Sarah,

Thank you for collecting and cogenting the thoughts so many of us have tried to express this week. We are so ready to see the Network strategy go forward. It includes the support of the Windsor bishops. These are some of your little bridges.

[58] Posted by Gulfstream on 09-28-2006 at 08:11 PM • top

At every turn of the great Episcopal saga, there have been some that have urged caution, that have argued that the levers of reform are still availible within TEC and that real internal change is a realistic possibility.  I was among those ranks.  Eventually, the optimism of many in this group is dimmed as they get involved in church politics and see, first hand, the trajectory of the denomination, fueled by a continuing flood of graduates from TEC “accredited” seminaries (and the rejection of those from the others), the continuing departure of orthodox families and the difficulty in attracting young families to a church with “Episcopal” on the sign. Many also come to the realization that the revisionists Bishops arent acting in a vacuum, rather, they were elected by their Dioceses(“duh!”)  and are generally no more liberal (or institutionalist) than their rank and file Priests and lay leadership. Eventually,  many of these warriors, after waging a good fight, discern God’s call to leave and take up the fight elsewhere.  Up until a few years go, they had little choice ,but to move to a different denomination but now are often blessed to be able to move, sometimes collectively, to non TEC Anglican churches.  So over time many insiders become outsiders.  At the same time, others are awakened by the latest outrage and enter the fray with the same enthusiasm about internal reform once held by the recently departed.  (Remember the classic article on this site about moving to the end of the pew?)
I do not believe that reform is possible within TEC, indeed, doing the math I can see where GC 2009 will be more liberal than GC2003, just as GC2003 was more revisionist than GC2000.  However, I appreciate that people of good conscience feel an obligation to first make an effort to seek change from within before joining an outside Anglican effort. Everyone has been there at one time or another during their journey in this mess, and it is hypocritical for me to jump on others for saying what I was preaching four years ago. So, I apologize. After all, one way or another all of us who claim the Savior will be reunited and worshiping together.  (Will there be a blog in heaven? If so, what would it be called?)

[59] Posted by Going Home on 09-28-2006 at 09:23 PM • top

I know there is no reforming TEC—it’s hopeless—but some of the clueless parishioners may still be brought forth in the coming months; I think this is still a worthy mission that the Camp Allen statement contemplates: trying to tell the truth, in this timely manner, despite the disinformation that the American leaders have entrenched through their publications, conventions, revised liturgies, and all the other tactics we’ve seen.

[60] Posted by Paula on 09-29-2006 at 03:12 AM • top

Sarah:

Excellant analysis and commentary. Thank you for your clarity. Each of us screen these events through our own lenses and expectations. For those who hoping for and expecting the ABC to recognize a parallel Anglican province of orthodox dioceses in North America, the letter to the HOB (it wasn’t a statement) from the Camp Allen group may seem weak. For those of us who are expecting some action within ECUSA that the ABC can support and encourage, Camp Allen gives much hope.

All of us, regardless of our expectations are hoping for a place that we can be faithful Anglicans, faithful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We also recognize that our bishop servant-leaders are also clay pots like us and are moving on their own paths to salvation and are accountable before the great judgement seat of Christ (like the rest of us) for how they have been stewards of the apostolic ministry that has been entrusted to them.

Like so many others who have commented I applaud the courage of +Wolfe who put catholicty above her personal concerns for justice. She has had to pay a great price for publically attending the Camp Allen meeting and then signing the statement. Her action will certainly strain her relationship with +Schori (remember, two woman bishops who would normally want to support one another in this male dominated HOB). +Wolfe has set an example for other bishops who also treasure Anglican catholicty (but did not respond to the invitation to come to Camp Allen) to make the hard choice and stand with other bishops who are willing to do (not just say) what is necessary to remain in the Anglican Communion.

God is still in charge. Remember to read the last chapter in The Book. We know who wins.

Grace and Peace, Gary SWFLA

[61] Posted by garyec on 09-29-2006 at 04:57 AM • top

Paula, my problem with Camp Allen is that it does not tell the truth, or at least the complete truth, about the prospects of working within TEC and thus does not accurately convey the situation to those parishioners that you and I want to reach over the next few months.  Again, I don’t believe this was a deliberate deception, just a mistake in the fog of war. 
You and I agree that internal reform in TEC is will not occur, which I suspect is the view of the overwhelming number of people here.  However, I have noticed a few new entries on this board from indivdiuals who argue that it is still possible to work from within.

[62] Posted by Going Home on 09-29-2006 at 10:01 AM • top

There are a few assumptions floating around Stand Firm that I don’t believe are true.

1. The CA statement gives cover to moderates who believe that they can remain in ecusa and be part of the Anglican Communion.  This may well be the thinking of Wimberly and others, but let’s examine this.  The ABC determines who is part of the AC and the GS has said clearly they will not continue the AC as it is presently constituted.  If ecusa gets a Lambeth invite, the GS have said they will not participate. 

If Windsor bishops get an invite, then ecusa is forever changed.  Anyone who still believes that ecusa can be reformed from within (and I wouldn’t be surprised to find that moderates believe this) are living in la-la land.  Whether moderates like it or not, ecusa cannot go forward in its present configuration.

2. The CA statement shows a weakening of resolve among the orthodox in America, thus giving Rowan Williams reason to not permit the formation of an orthodox province in the US (and lest we forget, in Canada).

I don’t believe this for a minute.  The Network bishops have been clear for the need as has the Global South.  Just because a group called together by “the senior bishop” of ecusa says less doesn’t mean that the Network or the GS will accept less.

[63] Posted by Tony on 09-29-2006 at 10:22 AM • top

You people write as if you have all the time in the world to debate this stuff.  Meanwhile, I have a nine year old and seven year old son.  While you guys hash this out for the next few years, I don’t have that leisure.  I loved the Episcopal church for 49 years, but left.

God bless all of you, but I don’t have time for this.  Perhaps part of my problem is that I am a businessman, not a professional theologian or even a seasoned amateur.  I have this nasty habit of wanting results and professional accountability.  What I hate to tell you is that there are more folks like me than like you.

To me it looks like Episcopalianism, and perhaps Anglicanism in its American form is something of a bust.  I joined a little Methodist start up led by a friend of mine.  They are a lot more “entrepreneurial” in what they let small congregations do, and I don’t sense any watering down of orthodoxy in the process.

Get with it folks.  You’re basically talking among yourselves.  Produce a product, and people like me who have skin in the game (i.e. little ones) will consider coming back.

[64] Posted by Tom Dupree, Jr. on 10-01-2006 at 05:09 PM • top

Hi Tom;

Thanks for your comments. I understand where you are coming from. I spent 35 years in IBM in various technical managment and finance positions before an eraly retirement to pursue a 2nd career as an ordianed vocational deacon. So I understand your position. This type of unproductive behavior would not have been tolerated for very long in IBM. But then that was a profit-making business, very different from being “Church.” I understand that you need to find a place where you and your family can worship, and if the Methodist Church is doing that for you, then “praise God.” I too am tired of the continuing debate within ourselves while our ministry to the world is being impacted severely. But I need to comment on several things that you brought up.

1. We don’t produce a product, that’s part of our problem. Today, many people church shop on a consumer basis. That’s not what we are about. We are about relationships. 1st our relationship with Jesus Christ as 1st our redeeming savior without whom and his sacrifical death on the cross we would have no hope for eternal life and 2nd as our LORD to whom we have given our trust and allegance and have committed to follow 24/7. Next is the relationships with our brothers and sister Christians world-wide.

I have attended some of the mega-churchs and they appear to be selling a product. Thier worship is often more engaging and energetic, their preaching is often more uplifting. However I think their response would not be much different than mine. They really aren’t trying to sell a product. All of that is only a way to bring people into a relationship with Jesus Christ.

My 2nd comment is about Anglicanism. It is MESSY. I was raised as an Episcopalian, but “coverted” to Roman Catholicism when I got married. I returned to the Episcopal Church 26 years ago after spending 24 years as a “Roman.” (Yeh, add it up, there’s a lot of years there). In the Episcopal Church we don’t really have a central authority other than the consituion and canons of the Episcopal Church and the every three year General Convention. In practice, each bishop has a some amount of freedom providing he doesn’t stray to far for the consitution and canons. The Anglican Communion has been in the state of becoming for the last 230 years. It is essentially a gathering (today) of 37 independant churches who all have their basis on the Church of England. Although we have agreed to accept the Archbishop of Canterbury as our “titular head” in reality he has no authority to invene or direct actions in any other jurisdiction. We have recognized the concept of “interdependance” and have established 3 other “Instruments of Unity” to help us in that effort, but again none of these instruments can come into the Episcopal Church or any other jursdiction and order any actions. There are times I have missed being in Rome, where I could look towards a central authority to keep things together, but they have their problems too. Maybe the 450 year Anglican Experiment has found the limits beyond which it cannot continue without re-shaping. I suspect that is so, but because of our structure it will take time to get there, and there will be many who will have to leave because their life situations need something else. For you and them I offer my blessings and good wishes. Please keep those of us who remain in your prayers. Hopefully God still has a plan for us.

Grace and Peace, Gary

[65] Posted by garyec on 10-01-2006 at 05:55 PM • top

Tom Dupree, consider that it took 30 plus years to get to GC ‘03, but since that time believers such as Stand Firm have taken up the challange and the orthodox after GC’06 shouted “enough”. I believe that in 2007 we will see results that will restore the Episcopal-Anglican communion is the USA.  Be patience my friend.

[66] Posted by george on 10-01-2006 at 06:01 PM • top

I’ll respond.  I have heard for years about the “messiness” of Anglicanism.  Sometimes that is used as a ruse.  I have seen absolute cowards hide behind that explanation, present company of course excluded.  In your daily lives, you make “buying” choices all day long.  By this, I mean not only how you spend your money, but also how you spend time and energy.  A big part of this is how you form relationships.  So, in a sense, the word “product” as I use it does not mean something necessarily neatly packaged with finite bounds. 

In my former parish, we were constantly being told how we were different than the “mega-churches”, why we were losing members and they were gaining was that in modern society people did not know how to live in “tension” or “mystery”, that they wanted black and white answers, and that having fewer members might have meant that indeed we, rather than they, may be on the right path and the lack of followers was proof of it.  There was a certain smugness about their explanations.  After having to suspend my sense of logic, a sense I use in many other areas of my life (except in my relationship with my wife, note this), I came to the conclusion that this was simply an excuse for poor performance.

The flaw in Anglicanism is that you can argue these things all you want, but you have no real power to change anything.  You simply cannot start your own church.  Oh I guess you could, and I may at some point.  I’ll use a combination of the 1928 and 1979 prayer books, some hymns by C. V. Stanford and R. Vaughan Williams, a little Thomas Tallis and Richard Byrd anthems for spice, a heavy dose of Creflo Dollar and Rev. Ike (got to have some Prosperity Gospel in there!), plus some Cardinal Ratzinger theology.  I’ll buy myself a priest’s collar on eBay and be off to the races!

Seriously, I admire those of you who fight on with this thing.  No doubt these computer aided discussions are helping somebody.  But is it possibly just an obssession?  I don’t know, but for me it was.  I found some peace when I just gave up and let go.  God has met me elsewhere.

I miss the Episcopal church badly.  But for me, it is like missing a friend who has died, or just walked away from the relationship.  Mainly, I miss the music.  I miss hearing “For All the Saints” the Sunday after November 1.  And I will miss “Welcome Happy Morning” on Easter.  But those are driven by sentimentalism, which can be just the opposite of true spirituality and a relationship with God.  In fact, I suspect it is exactly what has kept some folks stuck in the Episcopal church.

It is emotional for me.  But I have to think of my children.  I’ll keep checkin back with you guys.

[67] Posted by Tom Dupree, Jr. on 10-01-2006 at 06:47 PM • top

Tom, I appreciate your post. I too have children and share with you an obligation to ensure that they are raised in a church environment that is conducive not only to their current development, but to creating habits and connections that make it easy for them to remain in a church environment when they are in college and beyond. In short, they needed to be connected to a denomination that I would want them to join when they got out on their own.
It wasnt was worried about all of this when all of my children where in primary school, but as they got into the teen years,  I realized I didnt have five more years to wait, even three. I am blessed that God provided an excellent, vibrant Anglican church, which is investing more in youth than our old parish.  I pray that the new Anglican churches, in conjunction with the ACN and others, will soon focus on establishing some common youth and college ministries so we can focus on the next generation.
A generation of new members is being lost, which is why we don’t have time to wait.

[68] Posted by Going Home on 10-01-2006 at 08:12 PM • top

Hello Tom and Timothy.  Its been a while since I’ve seen a comment from you Tom and its seems that Timothy and I are always on the same page.  I would like to add something that might help some Stand Firm bloggers.  I have remained a member of the denomination primarily to continue the fight for the communion and the catholic church.  I do not attend my old parish because of my children.  Karen B and I have had some disagreement over this in the past.  Please know that I am not criticising her as she has been a great champion for the orthodox.

I attend (I don’t know that I will join) a PCA Presbyterian church for two reasons.  First and most importantly it is founded on sound theology and the minister teaches from scripture.  When my son is in church (8 years old) he hears what it is like to be a christian man, he is learning about the expectations for Christians and he is learning scripture at a very rapid rate.  I must tell you that when I left my old parish I couldn’t remember what was said an hour later.  Do I miss the bells and smells, yes but its like quitting smoking cigarettes, every day it gets easier.  Its been well over a year now since I attended my parish my focus is now on scripture and not liturgy I see things differently.

Folks there are some very strange Episcopalians. In fact when you step away from the denomination you start to see things in a different way.  Things like respecting clergy for their theology and their courage to guard the faith.  Not for their title or for their understanding of Anglican history.  Moreover, there are cultish type tendencies associated with ECUSA and these become more evident the more you are away from the denomination.  I must say that as a father it is my duty to separate my children from what I believe ECUSA has become.  Like Sarah Hey I will continue the fight to the end but I will leave my children out of it.  I owe them that legacy.

[69] Posted by Lee Parker on 10-04-2006 at 10:50 AM • top

Lee, if you needed any reinforcement about your decision to take your children away from ECUSA’s heresy, this past Sunday’s Gospel reading couldn’t be clearer:

“And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.”

That’s one reason we are starting a new Anglican church here in NC—just 10 days from our first worship service.  Our children can’t wait while ECUSA fiddles.

[70] Posted by hanks on 10-04-2006 at 11:31 AM • top

Thanks hanks and may God be with you and your new parish.  Maybe your new church will be the next Plano in the region.

[71] Posted by Lee Parker on 10-04-2006 at 11:51 AM • top

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