Thursday, September 2, 2010

Welcome to Stand Firm!

Want to advertise on Stand Firm? Click here for rates and info

Archbishops Gomez and Venables Respond to POR Report

Friday, October 13, 2006 • 5:09 pm



RESPONSE TO THE REPORT
OF
THE PANEL OF REFERENCE

The entire Anglican Communion has been awaiting information on the work of the Panel, and this report will undoubtedly receive comments from Canada and other parts of the Communion. The recommendations of the Panel will have impact not only on the applicants but in the wider Anglican Communion especially the conservatives of the Communion.

The basic argument of the report comes down to the question of "jurisdiction" vs "oversight" (par. 31-34) on the one hand, and to the time-line or "ordering" of the Windsor Report's (TWR) notion of adjudication of the current Communion-wide dispute. In the first case, the Panel believes that jurisdiction cannot be "divided" (33, 34), and therefore only some form of "delegated oversight" that remains under the jurisdiction of the diocesan bishop can be accepted. In the second, it believes that the dispute over, for example, sexuality teaching and discipline, is not yet fully adjudicated by the Communion, and therefore Canadian bishops are, with whatever impairments, "full members of the Communion." Taken together, the Panel cannot accept the request by the parishes to be "put under" another jurisdiction, in order to remain members of the Communion. The report raises questions over "the situation" which was referred to the Panel. Paragraph 6 offers such a description "as a temporary breakdown in relationships between the dissenting congregations and their Diocese." There are, of course, other ways of describing the "situation" such as that found in paragraph 143, that is, New Westminster has taken 'action in breach of the legitimate application of the Christian faith as the churches of the Anglican Communion have received it, and of bonds of affection in the life of the Communion...'. That description would, I suspect, lead to different conclusions.

Steps which formalize the transfer of Episcopal ministry on a longer term basis can not be justified unless formal reconciliation has demonstrably proved impossible to achieve. The report is clearly correct in terms of its terms of reference and theology, but it begs the enormous question of when and how we know that "formal reconciliation has demonstrably proved impossible to achieve" and given the note in paragraph 3 that the Diocese of New Westminster is disputing practically everything to do with the Windsor Report, there is surely a case to be made that we have either arrived at this situation or we are very close to this situation. In paragraph 21, the report deals with the applicants' desire to remain "in full communion with the Church of England throughout the world." The claim is not in relations to the Church of England but 'the Church of England throughout the world,' that is, the Communion. It is clear that many provinces are not in communion with the bishop of the diocese and so the Panel needs to make clear how they can fulfill their clear declaration to 'remain in communion with those whom they regard as faithful' as long as they are under the jurisdiction of the diocesan bishop. The Panel seems to want to say there is no problem because parts of the Communion have not declared impaired communion with the diocese and even those who have not declared it with the parishes but (a) it is not clear how the Panel makes sense of this latter claim canonically or ecclesiologically and (b) if there is any doubt many of the Provinces will make clear that indeed "In order to continue in full communion... 'we cannot at present function in structural fellowship with Bishop Ingham and the Diocese of New Westminster. (AS 3.2.3)". This is a crucial stage in the Panel's whole argument and it is precarious to say the least. In paragraph 25, the Panel's response to the request for special arrangements given the current status of the Diocese and Province within the worldwide Anglican Communion. However one describes it, the situation is clear and unprecedented - the province of which they are part, as a result of the actions of the diocese of which they are part, are currently unable to participate in the Instruments of Commuion. To attempt to force any solution to this unprecedented situation into the normal systems of provincial authority as if nothing is problematic about the diocese's status in the wider Communion needs stronger justification. Even when one accepts the terms of reference of the Panel and their determination not to prejudge the outcome of the eventual outcome of the Windsor process, there is one major problem with their reasoning, it seems to me, and that is given in their own description of the nature of "jurisdiction" in paragraph 31:

"It includes guardianship and promotion of Christian doctrine, both in the bishop's own teaching, and in ensuring the standards of education and orthodoxy of the clergy serving in the Diocese. It includes discipline, exercised by supervision of the clergy and parishes of the Diocese, expressed in the case of the clergy by an undertaking of canonical obedience to the bishop. The bishop is called to be a focus of unity within the Diocese, and representative of the unity of the wider church within the Communion.

Put this way, it is clear that the Bishop of New Westminster is not 'in fact' exercising proper 'jurisdiction' over his Diocese! He is neither guarding nor promoting Christian doctrine nor ensuring the standards of orthodoxy among his clergy; he is not exercising discipline in a way that coheres with the above; and he is certainly not proving either a focus of unity or a representative of unity within the larger church and Communion.

I take it that the Panel would say that they are not in a position to make a judgement about this, given that the ordering of the Windsor Report's adjudication has not taken place fully yet. But they are certainly in a position to accept that this engaged 'jurisdiction' is in serious question, given the well-expressed and publicized and formal views of many Provinces, Primates and already Instruments of Communion. And that being in such 'question,' it would be better to recommend limits on this jurisdiction.

It would be better that the Panel not simply reject the call for alternative 'jurisdiction,' but rather recommend that some aspect of the bishop's jurisdiction be 'ceded' to the Province. The Province should effect provisional jurisdictional oversight of these congregations through a delegated arrangement, that is, that jurisdiction be ceded to a 'college' of bishops for a time (who then delegate), until the adjudication envisaged by the Windsor Report be completed. This would not involve recognizing some 'new entity.'

While one appreciates the legal logic displayed by the Panel, one cannot help but conclude that the Panel has failed to understand the political and theological reality of the situation in which the applicants find themselves. Consequently, in my opinion, the recommendations of the Panel do not respond adequately to the real situation. In addition the Panel seems to have ignored the present situation in the Communion as described by the Archbishop of Canterbury in his 14th of September, 2006, letter:

"It is clear that the Communion as a whole remains committed to the teaching on human sexuality expressed in Resolution 1.10 of the 1998 Lambeth Conference, and also that the recommendations of the Windsor Report have been widely accepted as a basis for any progress in resolving the tensions that trouble us. As a Communion, we need to move forward on the basis of this twofold recognition."

The Panel is recommending that the applicants who share the position outlined by the Archbishop of Canterbury to submit to the jurisdiction of a bishop who vociferously denies both of the elements so clearly articulated by the Archbishop. In the circumstances, it is not unreasonable to suggest that the Province of Canada provide a secure resting place for the applicants while the Province prepares for its General Synod. Christian charity demands no less.


The Most Rev'd. Drexel Wellington Gomez
ARCHBISHOP OF THE WEST INDIES


Statement Concerning the Report
of the Panel of Reference
on the Conflict in New Westminster, Canada

Given that the Panel of Reference process has taken twenty painfully slow and drawnout months to do what was considered desperately urgent at the onset, it is now tragic to receive a report that fails to address the crisis in New Westminster adequately. It simply does not reflect the depth nor the severity of the crisis that has been precipitated by Michael Ingham's actions.

While the Windsor Report had the stated aim of "a mutually agreed commitment to effecting reconciliation," the last two years have merely and obviously seen an entrenchment of the attitudes and commitments of those whose actions have "torn the fabric of the communion." Whilst Kingdom values call us to be open to the possibility of repentance, it is unreasonable and irresponsible to continue to wait for what has been so clearly refused. There is not the tiniest indication that Michael Ingham might have any intention of turning away from pursuing an agenda that the instruments of Unity of the Communion have already rejected as being outside the boundaries of the Christian faith.

It is unrealistic and most unwise to send Biblically committed clergy and congregations back to a synod and bishop who have so tragically abandoned the foundations of the faith. These faithful clergy and people need the jurisdiction of a bishop who is fully committed to Biblical faith and Anglican tradition and practice.

Global South Primates are committed to working with Communion structures to implement the steps and solutions that the crisis requires. Unless there is a radical revision of the Panel's operation, it does not appear that it will offer solutions of adequate or appropriate substance.

The Most Revd Gregory J. Venables
Primate of the Southern Cone
October 13, 2006

34 Comments • Print-friendlyPrint-friendly w/commentsShare on Facebook
Comments:

Just to remind everyone, ++Gomez has been appointed to chair the Anglican Communion covenant working group. Pretty important I think.

[1] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-13-2006 at 04:22 PM • top

I think it’s time to give the Panel of Reference the Gnadenschuss and put it out of its misery.

[2] Posted by Chazzy on 10-13-2006 at 04:27 PM • top

The Panel of Reference is as impotent and ineffective as those who put it together knew it would be.  It has never remotely resembled what was asked for at Dromantine by the Primates, and hopes for justice being served through its processes are certainly misplaced.  Archbishops Gomez and Venables both know this and most orthodox Anglicans know this.  It is sickening to see more proof of what we have thought since the day it was created with Carnley as its head.

[3] Posted by BettyLee Payne on 10-13-2006 at 04:39 PM • top

This is big.

[4] Posted by Tony on 10-13-2006 at 04:42 PM • top

The Panel of Reference has, because of its composition from its beginning, leaned in favor of revisionism, and in my humble opinion, has been a monumental failure.  I see no reason for its continuing existence, and it should be dissolved forthwith.

[5] Posted by Cennydd on 10-13-2006 at 05:12 PM • top

Agreed.

[6] Posted by Tony on 10-13-2006 at 05:13 PM • top

More plain spoken analysis please.

[7] Posted by MasterServer on 10-13-2006 at 05:16 PM • top

Why do the terms ‘irrelevant’ and ‘futility’ come to mind? Is the Panel of Reference in anyway connected to the United Nations? Is that the TEC I hear laughing in the background? When does ‘enough’ finally mean ‘enough’?

[8] Posted by Doug Atkin on 10-13-2006 at 05:20 PM • top

We all knew deep down what the Panel of Reference response would be with Peter Carnley as Chair. Episcopalians are used to this - create a panel, load it up with revisionists and it will turn out exactly like you wanted it to.  Priceless!

[10] Posted by bradhutt on 10-13-2006 at 05:55 PM • top

bradh: “Priceless!”  Quiet, please.  Conservatives, and especially orthodox religious ones, would do well to sit on their hands and hold their tongues for a while here.  Disappointment, ire, and “I quit, yet again” will be read as part of the problem, not part of the solution.  The Lord will provide.

[11] Posted by terebinth on 10-13-2006 at 06:12 PM • top

“Quiet, please.  Conservatives, and especially orthodox religious ones, would do well to sit on their hands and hold their tongues for a while here. “

NO, Terebinth.  Now, above all is the time to speak.  Too many of us mistakenly placed faith in this Panel of Reference when Dromantine asked for it as a “matter of urgency.”  I am embarrassed to admit that I counseled my parish to be patient—that the Panel of Reference changed the landscape completely.  I was wrong.

We should no more be quiet than those who complained about the slowness of the much quicker response to Hurrican Katrina.

[12] Posted by William Witt on 10-13-2006 at 06:37 PM • top

It is novel for this former Episcopalian to now have a bishop and archbishop, ++ Venables, who speaks out clearly and courageously.

[13] Posted by Judith L on 10-13-2006 at 06:45 PM • top

WW: As Katrina relief is still so inadequate, so also will be the human response here.  These holy people are required to answer for spiritual lives of millions.  Would that our trendy, up-to-the-limit democracy had been so careful about Katrina.  On the other hand we do have *some* (famous punctuation) reason to believe PoR takes their spiritual work seriously.  Let it be, for a while.

[14] Posted by terebinth on 10-13-2006 at 06:49 PM • top

++Gomez and ++Venabales… Now THAT’s what I’m talking about!  Thank you!

[15] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 10-13-2006 at 06:58 PM • top

terebinth,
These “holy people” you refer to put their pants on the same way I do, and we are being naive if we believe   POR Response is “spiritual work.” This is Christ’s business and We ought to all get down on our knees and beg Him for forgiveness in allowing this to happen at all for it is the Devil’s work-nothing more.

[16] Posted by bradhutt on 10-13-2006 at 08:08 PM • top

bradh: I think we completely agree, and certainly on the part about begging for forgiveness.  Ergo I urge quiet, hard to beg while you are storming about.

[17] Posted by terebinth on 10-13-2006 at 08:58 PM • top

Bradhutt, How easy it is to forget the purpose of all this. You are right! This IS Christ’s business, and we must always find a way to remember that, although it is sometimes very difficult.

I am reminded of the old saying: It’s hard to remember our main objective is to drain the swamp when we’re up to our butts in alligators!

[18] Posted by Doug Atkin on 10-13-2006 at 09:04 PM • top

Sit on our hands? You must be kidding.  The Lord is providing, and he is doing it through the willing hands of people like Gomez++ , Venables++ and hundreds of others including some of those who write for this site.

[19] Posted by Going Home on 10-13-2006 at 09:42 PM • top

Judith L.  I am right with you in being relieved and very thankful for the faithful leadership with which I now am blessed—all the way up to Archbishop Venables—there is light and life on the other side, by the grace of God.

[20] Posted by BettyLee Payne on 10-13-2006 at 09:57 PM • top

terebinth,
You characterized the response to Katrina as “inadequate”.
Let me educate you.
And I speak as one who returned to a slab, with the accumulated treasures of nearly 50 years of marraige and parenting gone. Simply gone. I cannot even begin to recite the losses, even including the only remaining picture of my grandparents, the grade cards of my parents, the curls of hair of my babies - the list is as long as all the arms of all the folks on this blog - and we mourned.
But the response to Katrina was not - as you say - “inadequate”. It was fabulous! By day 2 FEMA and the National Guard and police and fire volunteers from all over the country were on site, with dogs searching for bodies, helicopters dropping water and ice. By day 3 there were 18 wheelers delivering ice and water and the looters (yes, there is an underbelly of scaliwags among us) were on the run.
In the days that followed we saw hoards of volunteers arrive from all over this great land, helping us muck out houses, tear out sheetrock and spray for mold. They got dirty, tired, hot, and they prayed with us. And they continued to come, in droves, and we welcomed them as best we could. We installed a shower in the ladies room of our parish hall to give them a place to clean up. Their care for us was precious and we would have given them anything we had to keep them among us.
Our Governor stepped up and set up mechanisms to plan our recovery, including critical legislation to help businesses resume. And he initiated critical requests to Congress and the President. The SBA was pressed into action.
In the months that followed we saw Congress, encouraged by the President and the Leadership pass aid programs that will eventually let us get back to “normal” whatever that is in the new time. The President visited our Coast 13 times in less than a year, and many other members of Congress made visits, from both parties.
We lost nearly half the churches of the Coast Convocation, but worship goes on, because hundreds of churches sent linens, flags, vessels and whatever to make sure we did not miss a beat.
The response to Katrina “inadequate”? Balderdash! The American people were magnificent. The governmental units were good but not great. But what can you expect from gummint?  We got better than what we expected from gummint, and a whole lot more than we could have dreamed of from the American people.
The people of Mississippi are and will be eternally grateful for the response to Katrina. We owe America big-time, and will never forget it. We got severely whacked and were given the chance to get back up on our feet. It doesn’t get any better than that. God Bless the USA.
terebinth, you may preach your bile however you wish here. I will defend your right to an opinion. But keep to the facts as facts. And Katrina response as “inadequate” just won’t fly. Those of us who were here on the ground losing everything simply know better.

[21] Posted by Gulfstream on 10-13-2006 at 10:12 PM • top

Rather than sitting on our hands,perhaps raising our hands as we see the Lord sending deliverance from Spong,Schiori and Crew

[22] Posted by paddy on 10-13-2006 at 10:48 PM • top

oops,Ingham,sorry,inter-changable revisionists ya know cool smirk

[23] Posted by paddy on 10-13-2006 at 11:51 PM • top

Paddy, you are right. Its time for our hands to be raised. I will never sit on mine again.

[24] Posted by Going Home on 10-14-2006 at 12:11 AM • top

“In the circumstances, it is not unreasonable to suggest that the Province of Canada provide a secure resting place for the applicants while the Province prepares for its General Synod. Christian charity demands no less.”

“Not unreasonable to suggest”
Good grief!
The Province has absolutely no intention whatsoever of doing what is reasonably being suggested!  It has said as much, repeatedly through its very clear actions. 
The Panel of Reference has now taken ‘eternity’ to say NOTHING - from their words the formal Communion hierarchy will have no grounds for providing what is being reasonably suggested. 

The time is long past for reasonable suggestions!

[25] Posted by naab00 on 10-14-2006 at 02:16 AM • top

Holy Clarity, Batman! This looks like the work of The Panel of Deference.

the snarkster

[26] Posted by the snarkster on 10-14-2006 at 09:03 AM • top

“You characterized the response to Katrina as ‘inadequate’.”

Since I’m the one who introduced the Katrina analogy I’ll take the blame.  I characterized the response time as slow.  I was not, of course, referring to those myriads of volunteers, or the troops of the ground, who went above and beyond duty.  I was, however, referring to the slowness of the government response to those events in New Orleans with which we are all familiar—ignoring of warnings about the potential of overflowing levies, thousands of people left stranded in the Superdome for days on end, bodies left unburied in the street.  Yes, the government response to these was too slow and “inadequate.”  I do expect more from “gummint.”  And I don’t think it is vile to do so.  Among other things, one of the responsibilities of government is to promote the common good. 

It is wonderful, of course, that so many gave of their time and money to those of you in Mississippi and Lousiana.  To complain that those who should have been in charge didn’t do their duty in no way implies criticism of the thousands who did.  As you say, the American people were “great,” as were the troops.  And thank God for that.  But they weren’t the objects of my comparison.

And, of course, I was not trying to make a political point.  I was contrasting the timeliness of the response to Katrina—which has been criticized by many as “too slow” with the considerably longer response time of the P of R.  But, again, it’s the bureaucrats who aren’t doing their job.  Those filling the pews in the eleven New Westminster parishes did what needed to be done four years ago.

[27] Posted by William Witt on 10-14-2006 at 09:20 AM • top

Gulfstream: our church continues to sponser a parrish in So Miss, and we have greatly benefited and contributed.  It’s even possible you and I have met in this process.  Please, I have sent you no bile.  The Katrina effort continues because the destruction was immense.  The destruction of the AC—which may very well be God’s will—can also be immense.  I for one would rather be part of the solution by minimizing the pain at the start.  Right now that means patience, forebearance.  You might begin by dropping the spin:  bile indeed.

[28] Posted by terebinth on 10-14-2006 at 09:44 AM • top

Ha!  SF doesn’t get the scoop on everything.  Canuck blogger brings you the Network (great white north edition) response:

http://www.anglicannetwork.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=45

[29] Posted by Peter on 10-14-2006 at 11:13 PM • top

“Taken together, the Panel cannot accept the request by the parishes to be “put under” another jurisdiction, in order to remain members of the Communion.”

One problem with the PoR is that it ignores the Dromantine Communique on the subject of border crossing - citing only the WR.

[30] Posted by tired on 10-16-2006 at 03:34 AM • top

tired,
Exactly right. The POR, once seen as a boon (but a relatively toothless one) for the orthodox, has become a useful tool in the hands of moderate/liberal primates seeking an official communion platform to counter the GS.

[31] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 10-16-2006 at 06:05 AM • top

Ah, no amount of wishful thinking or urgent substitute presuppositional conservative narrative can create immediate and comprehensive new Anglican institutional police powers where, in fact, we have none.  The ABC is not empowered by anybody to determine anything for Anglicans in another autonomous province, though as primer inter pares he is automatically plugged into the diverse voices of the continuing worldwide Anglican conversation. 

Ditto, for everybody else, whether sitting individually or in groups, i.e., Panel of Reference, Domantine, Kigali, and on and on and on.  If/when we have police powers written into our new covenant, and if/when that covenant has been duly agreed among its constituencies, then and only then, maybe, will we have the sorts of policing (and punishing?) that so many conservative believers apparently feel is the essence of God’s work in our worldwide communion.

Until then, even the Windsor Report is advisory, as are all prounouncements so far from Primate, archbishops, bishops, and the Queen of England who actually is the designated head of the established Church of England.  Like Elizabeth I, she alone formally has the legal or institutional power - still - to prounounce for the Church of England.  Should this false and meanspirited sense of new puritan crisis be prosecuted to split CoE apart, as it is being prosecuted in TEC and Canada, perhaps the Queen or her successor would do well to consider re-establishing the Elizabethan Settlement, at least for her own province.

Meanwhile, the idea that somehow a new puritan Anglican church anywhere can completely escape from startling new discoveries in the various sciences, or escape from the range of hermeneutical-interpretational choices in not only reading scriptural text but also discerning it provisionally and aright, or escape from the seriously and sensuously committed queer folks down the street who are raising their children - well the planet is seeming smaller and we are all feeling closer, not the other way round.

Even if new puritans think they have drummed unexpected empirical data, diverse hermeneutics, or queer folks out of their immediate vicinities; they will surely still encounter all of these hot buttons and more - at work, in their own local home neighborhoods, and in many other civil-social gatherings where all participate as citizens.  The vision of the earth being implicitly connoted is backward looking, and valorizes shutting down and closing down instead of valorizing inquiry and conversation.

The implicit request that force, policing, punishment, and conformity or else doom - all be done in love only heightens the burgeoning meanness.  To demean love by using force grounded in a mistaken sense of crisis and doom comes perilously close to the very doom from which we are allegedly rescued by these paradigms.  Stand in all the legal and penal frameworks that still make any whole or partial sense to you, but do not deceive yourselves that anything short of sheer force will persuade all the other people who stand elswhere to follow Jesus of Nazareth in provisional good faith and open-ended inquiry.

Our communion as believers is the free gift of Jesus, and of God who sent us Jesus.  Nobody except God determines when that free gift of communion is impaired.  If you want to see just where all this new puritanism is headed, read R. J. Rushdoony.  He is the unwitting forebear, along with other presuppositionalist believers, in our most recent modern era.

Still, God is waiting for us in the Jesus who resurrected and lives among us. Do not do unto others that which you would find cruel or unjust if it were done to you. Just a starting point on another point of view.

[32] Posted by drdanfee on 10-17-2006 at 09:47 AM • top

Re: “The ABC is not empowered by anybody to determine anything for Anglicans in another autonomous province, though as primer inter pares he is automatically plugged into the diverse voices of the continuing worldwide Anglican conversation.”

Not true.  He is able to determine who is in the Communion and who is not.  Should be interesting what he determines over the coming years.

Re: “Meanwhile, the idea that somehow a new puritan Anglican church anywhere can completely escape from startling new discoveries in the various sciences,”

There have been no “startling new discoveries in the various sciences” on the issue of homosexuality, despite all of the attempts to make it appear so. So thankfully, the “new puritan Anglican church” won’t have to deal with “startling new discoveries”, since we all start with the idea that human beings are naturally inclined to sinful action, whether drinking too much, engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage, or embezzling money.

Re: ” . . .  or escape from the range of hermeneutical-interpretational choices in not only reading scriptural text but also discerning it provisionally and aright” . . .

You mean that amongst the “range of hermeneutical-interpretational choices” there is a “right” reading?  ; > )

Re: “. . . well the planet is seeming smaller and we are all feeling closer, not the other way round.”

Actually, the irony of globalization is that, despite the nearness of communication, that very communication allows people to neatly divide into what they so clearly believe.  The immediacy and globalization now of communication allows rapid response—and rapid division into beliefs, values, and identities.  Ironically, the closer together . . . the farther apart.

Re: “. . . To demean love by using force grounded in a mistaken sense of crisis and doom”

But wait—I thought you said above that there was nothing that anyone could say within the Anglican Communion that disciplined or held accountable anyone claiming to be within the Anglican Communion.  So there is no “force” you said, to be had. 

Which is it?  Is there force to be used, or no force, within the AC? 
; > )

Re: “Stand in all the legal and penal frameworks that still make any whole or partial sense to you, but do not deceive yourselves that anything short of sheer force will persuade all the other people who stand elswhere to follow Jesus of Nazareth in provisional good faith and open-ended inquiry.”

Here you are, at last, saying a true thing.  Nothing can make people “follow Jesus”.  The only thing that people can say is which people who make the claim of following Jesus will be with what group—a matter that is under discussion at this time, within the Anglican Communion.

Re: “Nobody except God determines when that free gift of communion is impaired.”

Yes—and it’s up to Christians to *recognize* when God has determined that.  Communion occurs amongst Christian believers, not amongst people who merely mouth the word “Christian believer”.  When people are merely mouthing the word “Christian believer” yet are not Christian believers, they never had communion at all with Christians.  It is simply an illusion.

Re: “Just a starting point on another point of view.”

Well . . . no.  Pretty much the same old thing that’s been said by reappraisers for the past umpteen years.  So nothing new.

[33] Posted by Sarah on 10-17-2006 at 10:10 AM • top

Drdanfee, I started to write a long response. I even looked up your latin word for first among equals. Then I thought better.  But in regard to your “...drummed unexpected empirical data, diverse hermeneutics…” all sounds very enlightened, forward looking.  Educated. God is doing a new thing?  “What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.”  Holy Scripture speaks plainly about the behavior you identify. The only backward looking here is among those who seem determined to repeat the mistakes of others in history who were also determined to make God in their image.

[34] Posted by Going Home on 10-17-2006 at 10:11 AM • top

Registered members are welcome to leave comments. Log in here, or register here.


Comment Policy: We pride ourselves on having some of the most open, honest debate anywhere about the crisis in our church. However, we do have a few rules that we enforce strictly. They are: No over-the-top profanity, no racial or ethnic slurs, and no threats real or implied of physical violence. Please see this post for more. Although we rarely do so, we reserve the right to remove or edit comments, as well as suspend users' accounts, solely at the discretion of site administrators. Since we try to err on the side of open debate, you may sometimes see comments that you believe strain the boundaries of our rules. Comments are the opinions of visitors, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of Stand Firm, its board of directors, or its site administrators.