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Last Men Standing: What Now from GAFCON?

Wednesday, June 25, 2008 • 10:15 pm

Now, roughly 200 bishops, mainly from Africa, will not be present at Lambeth, because they are tired of the dithering, and unconvinced that the conference will accomplish anything meaningful. As one insider characterized it, they are "tired of winning on paper, only to lose later on the ground." But would it have been much different had Williams not invited them? I submit that the answer is ‘no.' Whether membership in the communion is technically defined as attending Lambeth, or receiving an invitation to attend, amounts to so many angels on the head of a pin. It really doesn't matter whether +Akinola, +Orombi, +Kolini or +Nzimbi received invitations to Lambeth. They're not going. It hardly makes a difference to the real-world meaning of an Anglican communion whether +Rowan actually wants them there. And frankly, he doesn't care whether they attend or not. And so, here we are. A fourth of a global church's bishops not attending its flagship gathering, and a host archbishop who couldn't give a damn.
So it appears that the GAFCON poobahs have sequestered themselves to write the conference's final communiqué, and here we all are (well, some of us anyway), playing the now-familiar game of wait-and-see-what-the-Anglicans-say.

By now, what should also be familiar is hearing, from the Stand Firm bloggers at least, the warning not to set your expectations too high. Actually, that should read: Not to set your expectations high at all. In fact, whenever we're talking about statements drafted by a committee, on which bishops sit, the best advice is to look at your expectations knob very carefully, ensure that it's in working order, and dial it down to its lowest setting.

Scattered reports coming out of Jerusalem indicate that, at least for the moment, there is disagreement between federal conservatives and communion conservatives on just how hard a line the conference's statement should take, and what kinds of actions should be on - and off - the table for orthodox Anglicans as we try and make our way through this crisis.

Disagreement between fed-con and com-cons is nothing new; neither is disagreement about what an Anglican communiqué should contain. The real question for GAFCON is: Will there be a ‘plan' at all?

We've already been given The Way, the Truth and the Life; we know where the conference attendees stand theologically, and I think it's safe to say that none of us has any problem with that document. But we've also been given statement after statement that GAFCON is not an alternative to Lambeth, not a boycott mechanism, and that the conservative primates and bishops gathering in Jerusalem have no intention of declaring a formal schism.

However.

Christopher Johnson points out:

For all intents and purposes, the Anglican split many of us hoped for has happened.

Let's be honest. The Americans and Canadians are going to continue to defy the Windsor Report. And Global South bishops are going to continue to pick off American and Canadian conservative parishes in defiance of the Windsor Report.

And nothing will happen to any of them.

Dr. Williams has not withdrawn Lambeth Conference invitations to anybody. So we're left to conclude that violations of Anglican pronouncements(Lambeth resolutions, the Windsor Report or anything else) carry no penalty.

Ever.

Therefore Rowan Williams and the other Anglican "instruments of unity" are irrelevant, Anglicans are officially free to do anything they want and Anglicanism is officially meaningless. The Anglican Communion is dead.

So what? So this. My gracious lord of Canterbury has a choice. If Dr. Williams wants the office of Archbishop of Canterbury to continue to mean anything at all, he has one last chance. The upcoming Lambeth Conference had better be a good deal more confrontational than he would like it to be or that will be the end of the Anglican game.

But of course, Lambeth will not be confrontational at all, except perhaps to the extent that the revisionist fringe engages in protest over the Anglican church's "intolerance" toward gays and lesbians by way of their theater of the absurd, starting with Gene Robinson's various appearances, and no doubt featuring cameos by Colin Coward and Davis Mac-Iyalla and similar types.

Johnson goes on to say:
If Williams doesn't, conservative Anglicans are going to be begin to remake the Anglican tradition in whatever way they wish regardless of what the Archbishop has to say about it. The gap between liberal and conservative Anglicans will grow into an unbridgeable chasm and Dr. Williams or one of his successors will eventually find themselves the holders of a title that has no power and even less influence in Anglican affairs.

Let me go Christopher one better, and say that Rowan Williams has already surrendered whatever power may have been resident in the office of Archbishop of Canterbury - and it was never much to begin with, really. When Williams issued Lambeth invitations to precisely the people whom the Windsor Report said should excuse themselves from such bodies; and let Tanzania's September 30 "deadline" pass without so much as a whimper, he once and for all settled the question of whether he, and perhaps the See of Canterbury itself, will ever again possess anything resembling power over Anglican affairs. The answer was an unequivocal ‘no.'

The histories of the American presidency, the English monarchy, and the Roman emperors, just for starters, are case studies in the axiom that power is like a muscle, and it must be exercised or else it will die. Those histories show that the power in, and influence of, the offices wax and wane according to the man who occupies it and the peculiar situations in which his nation finds itself, so it's certainly conceivable that the nature of power office of Archbishop may one day evolve into something more than merely titular; but in the hands of Rowan Williams, it's hard to see how it is anything other than doomed.

The problem with the office of ABC is that, unlike our other examples, the Anglican Communion is a weak alliance to begin with, and has not proved itself to be terribly good at self-repair. The fortunes of robust nations with treasure and land to protect, and military might to project, tend not to rise and fall in lockstep with a particular leader's talents or ability to exercise his power. When strong emperors, kings and presidents coincide with certain moments in history, nations can certainly be catapulted into greatness they didn't previously enjoy, but they don't seem to be so vulnerable in the opposite direction; Lord knows Rome, England and America have survived, and occasionally thrived, under some miserable leaders.

But the power of the Archbishop of Canterbury derives almost entirely from the influence and reach of the church over which he presides. The ABC wields no military power; he commands no expansive fortune. Three centuries ago, being the established church of the British Empire was quite sufficient in the way of influence and reach. Today, to be a significant corporate Christian presence, one must have numbers, and be global in scope, in a way entirely unlike how the British Empire of the 17th and 18th centuries was global. To use today's corporate lingo, one must be "multi-national."

Rowan Williams' dithering throughout the greatest crisis in the church's history - punctuated by moments of aggressive incoherence such as the sub-group report in Tanzania, and the issuing of Lambeth invitations last summer - has allowed, indeed probably hastened, the split in the communion. The result - the estrangement of half the world's Anglicans, located mainly in Africa - will mean a See of Canterbury whose scope is once again back to that mainly of England and three of its white, western former colonies; and it won't even enjoy the loyalty of all the Anglicans in those places, as sizeable minorities begin doing in micro what the Global South is now doing in macro: Going about the business of disregarding what Canterbury wants and says, and as Christopher writes, "remaking the Anglican tradition in whatever way they wish." They won't be the first, though. Disregarding Canterbury's advice - in all its forms, from the casual to the formal, advisory to legalistic - is precisely what revisionists in America and Canada have been doing for the last few decades (the last five years especially) and what has triggered this schism.

The time is past for anyone to be asking, "What will the Archbishop of Canterbury do?" It no longer matters what he does. Even if he were to do an about-face, realize that he is staring the death of the global communion in the face, and make the hard choices necessary even to have a chance at saving it… what do we really think would happen? Do we really think the Episcopal Church would fold their tent, say "That's that, then… au revoir, Anglicans!" Do we really think that the ACO wouldn't ratchet up its schemes to defeat whatever discipline threatened to be imposed on 815? Do we really think that anything would be terribly different from the way it is now?

At any rate, we don't have to speculate about what Rowan Williams might do, because we have the long, sad history of what he has done as our guide to what he will do in the future.

He called together the primates in October 2003. They signed a stern warning. Frank Griswold returned to serve as chief consecrator for Gene Robinson. What was William's response?

He impaneled the Lambeth Commission, which eventually produced the Windsor Report. It contained some very precise recommendations, around which the Anglican Communion Office and 815 promptly began maneuvering, and successfully so. When it was clear that the Episcopal Church intended to drag its feet indefinitely on responding, what was William's response?

He stepped back while the primates at Dromantine made it very clear what Windsor meant, and when it expected a response. That "response" came at General Convention 2006, and consisted of what can only charitably be called a "non-response." General Convention half-heartedly said it would "exercise caution" on doing the thing (consecrating non-celibate gays to the episcopacy) that the primates in October '03 warned would "tear the fabric of the communion at its deepest level." It left completely unanswered Windsor's recommendation regarding same-sex blessings. What was Williams' response?

In Tanzania the following February, it was to stand in front of the world's Anglicans and declare that the Episcopal Church had met Windsor's requests. When the patent absurdity of his declaration was brushed aside like so much lint by a block of Global South primates, and a deadline of September 30 imposed on the Episcopal Church to say, "we're in" or "we're out," what was Williams' response?

In summer 2007, he went ahead and issued invitations to Lambeth, to all of the bishops who had consecrated Gene Robinson - thereby dealing a death blow simultaneously to Windsor and Tanzania.

Now, roughly 200 bishops, mainly from Africa, will not be present at Lambeth, because they are tired of the dithering, and unconvinced that the conference will accomplish anything meaningful. As one insider characterized it, they are "tired of winning on paper, only to lose later on the ground."

But would it have been much different had Williams not invited them? I submit that the answer is ‘no.' Whether membership in the communion is technically defined as attending Lambeth, or receiving an invitation to attend, amounts to so many angels on the head of a pin. It really doesn't matter whether +Akinola, +Orombi, +Kolini or +Nzimbi received invitations to Lambeth. They're not going. It hardly makes a difference to the real-world meaning of an Anglican communion whether +Rowan actually wants them there. And frankly, he doesn't care whether they attend or not.

And so, here we are. A fourth of a global church's bishops not attending its flagship gathering, and a host archbishop who couldn't give a damn.

There are no more "what ifs," folks. There's no more value in pondering whether the communion might split, or what it would look like if it did. There's no sense in speculating what lies "over there," beyond the schism. We're already "over there." This is it. Chaos, disorder, disunity, and no indication that anyone has any authority to do anything about it, much less the will to do so even if the authority existed. There is no other shoe that's going to drop, so if you're still waiting for it, stop.

Early on, I described the Windsor Report as "an attempt by a church that is held together by trust, to deal with a member it has decided it can no longer trust." That attempt has failed, because all egalitarian organizations - and like it or not, that's what the Anglican Communion really is - are only as stable and coherent as their least stable and coherent members. In our case, that happens to be the "church" that has declared homosexual behavior a holy thing, gives its unqualified support to abortion up to partial-birth, and denies the uniqueness of the savior on whose Word it was once founded, and who made it very clear that He was the only way to the Father. Along the way, the Archbishop of Canterbury enabled, coddled, and covered up for this "church," and in the process he has made himself irrelevant.

Now the question of relevance turns to the primates gathered in Jerusalem.

If they don't intend to announce a formal split, what exactly was the point of GAFCON? Was it simply to underscore the fact that they're unhappy with the way things are? With all due respect, gentlemen, we've known that. It didn't take GAFCON to make that clear.

Was it a trial run to see which primates and bishops were ready to support which kind of plan? If so, I cannot imagine a bigger roll of the dice at this point in the crisis. Have they really gathered in Jerusalem, unaware of what everyone is wiling to get on board with, hoping to hammer out their differences in the span of a week? If so, then we are in for a tremendous disappointment.

Was it to "try on" a replacement for Lambeth - to see what it would "feel like" to go it alone? There's value in that, I suppose, but not for an event that was at first rumored to be the alternative Lambeth, the bona-fide split, then not, then something else, then something else again.

At this point, GAFCON's leaders need to announce what they intend to do on the big questions: Are they staying, or are they going? If they're going, then what are the next concrete steps to cutting ties with the old communion and setting up a new one? If they're staying, what are the next concrete steps to carving out a meaningful - and honorable - place to exist within it, and to reforming the whole into something we can, if not be proud of in our lifetimes, at least have reason to hope that our children and grandchildren might one day be proud of?

If they're staying, what is to be done about the American and Canadian revisionists currently running their provinces? Are we simply to ignore their heretical antics, while trying as best we can to "differentiate" ourselves? By what means are we to achieve that differentiation? Is it structural? And what does "structure" mean anymore, anyway? GAFCON leaders wrote that they're not interested in unity if it means surrendering the Gospel; at what point does their tolerance of TEC heresy become surrender?

One thing GAFCON leaders could do is realize - indeed, embrace - the idea that the lack of consequences for "prophetic" actions, which seems to be the rule of the day in the Anglican church, can work both ways. It could, if it wished, put some facts of its own on the ground, especially here in North America, and especially designed to reclaim and reform this diseased church, and rejuvenate a very tired, but very resilient, community of faithful Christians.
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Comments:

Agree 100%. 

The most destructive mechanism is not that of TEC’s heresy, which is clear to see and should be the spark for a renewed church on the part of the faithful. The most destructive force is the inability of many orthodox leaders to speak honestly of the split that has already occurred, and to take decisive action.

If this window of opportunity is missed, there will simply be no hope substantial, nation wide Anglican styled presence in the US. Sure, there will be pockets of healthy churches, like at Falls Church, Truro and the 15 or so other larger GS connected churches scattered about.  But these will slowly drift to congregational status, while smaller Anglican churches will die for lack of a clear identity.  The remaining orthodox presence within the Episcopal Church will continue its slow but sure death.

[1] Posted by Going Home on 06-25-2008 at 10:12 PM • top

As it stands right now:
1.  The idea of communion discipline is dead.
2.  The idea of doctrinal orthodoxy across the communion is dead.
3.  The communion is poised to become exactly what TEC desires - a loose confederation of people who wear similar clothes on Sunday, and who all once had some historic connection to England. 

It should now be recognized that this all puts paid to the idea of the Covenant.  Paper does not translate into willpower, and an organization that has already tacitly acquiesced to 1-3 will not suddenly find the will to enforce the discipline of yet another document.

This is GAFCONs challenge - to bring home the consequences of liberal apostasy if the face of apathy and complicity; to impose some measure of Communion discipline because the Communion itself cannot muster the will to do so.  If GAFCON does nothing, then TEC has already won.

carl

[2] Posted by carl on 06-25-2008 at 10:27 PM • top

It’s so easy for Americans and Canadians to see all this through the lens of their experience with PEcUSA and the AciC—churches which have, for the last 40 years, more and more abandoned the basics of not just Anglicanism but Christianity itself. So, naturally, there’s a desire on the part of the “traditionalsts” from such areas to see, as part of the solution, a jurisdictional one—precisely because their own jurisdictions are apostate and they want an alternative that still has the ‘glamour’ and ‘cachet’ of being in the “Anglican Communion.” (Or, at least, an Anglican Communion. And a big international one too please, because a small one (like the Continuing churches) simply aren’t worth considering at all regardless of how orthodox they may be. We’ll stay put with the apostasy until we get a better offer, thanks anyway. But I digress.)

.

But Greg’s and Christopher’s posts got me wondering—what does all this look like from the perspective of Nigeria or Uganda? I mean, after all, they don’t have the jurisdictional infidelity to Christ that the Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, English, etc have. While the apostasy of PEcUSA and the AciC—as well as the scandalous, culpable, manipulative impotence of Rowan Williams—is upsetting, surely it’s not as “pressing” for them as it is for a “moderate traditionalist” isolated under a liberal American bishop in an apostate jurisdiction. In Nigeria, Uganda and elsewhere the Gospel is preached, the church is growing—and they don’t (unlike Americans) have to be ashamed about inviting someone to their parishes.

So while the international “status quo” is one of disintegration, there’s not the same “time pressure” on them to do anything jurisdictional. Their faithful clergy and people are not, after all, going to be evicted, sued, and harassed (at least, not by their fellow “churchmen”) the way traditionalists have been in PEcUSA (first the anglocatholics, then the evangelicals, now even the “moderate revisionists” who accept all of PEcUSA’s novelties except the homosexualist heresies).

So they don’t have the same “negative” reason to “abandon the Communion” the way Americans and Canadians have—they don’t have the negative of a disintegrating and apostate jurisdiction which is “the” Lambeth member in their countries. Thus they can let the current impossible and incoherent situation continue to develop—or, rather, devolve—on the international level, because things are fine at home.

And there’s something to be said for that: focus your time, effort and attention where it matters and make a difference. Build up your own church and people, as well as support those handful of Americans and Canadians who actually have the cahones and integrity to abandon apostate PEcUSA and turn to you for jurisdictional oversight. All while staying in a meaningless so-called “Communion” (the laf-able Lambeth Anglican Fellowship) which is increasingly irrelevant to their own church life.

.

Which raises the question—is there a positive reason for them to form a new body (either within or separate from the L.A.F.)? And here, I think, is where a weakness is revealed—could all those at GAFCON agree on what such an alternative would be and how it would function? Judging from what Greg writes above, the answer is probably “no”. (Or, at the very least, “not yet… and not for another decade or so. At least. Um, after study. Er, and a few committees. Oh, and some more meetings and strongly worded statements. Well, kinda strongly. But nicely. I mean, not confrontational or anything. You know…”)

Which means the choice is not between the LAF and a clear alternative (be it exclusive of the LAF or simply parallel to it)... but, rather, between the LAF and an unclear, nebulous range of possiblities, none of which has been clearly envisioned and about which there is no universal agreement.

.

In which case—if that’s a fair assessment (and I’m looking at this from the ‘outside’, so it may not be)—then it’s actually quite understandable why even the staunchest anti-apostasy of the non-first-world bishops are reluctant to create a break. Because it wouldn’t be jumping off the sinking ship onto a solid, tested, alternate ship… but would be, rather, everyone jumping off the sinking ship in just about every direction and trying to build the new ship as they fall.

And while that may be a more attractive option than the status quo to the Americans and Canadians who are being (to mix my metaphores) burned at the plank where they’re currently being persecuted, I can see how it would be a less attractive option to those Africans and others who are - locally - just fine (at least in terms of Anglican “identity” and “practice” and “jurisdictional integrity”) and so can afford to wait… taking more considered and less precipitous action.

.

Now, I think this is a mistake—a mistake precisely because it simply keeps in place all the defects and lacunae and ambiguity and irresponsibility which have allowed the LAF to come to this point in the first place.

It’s sort of like [after ignoring those (like the Continuers) who have pointed out that the LAF emperor has no clothes for the last few decades] saying “well, okay, he doesn’t have any clothes… but maybe he’ll pick some up after he’s gone a few more blocks, let’s wait and see, shall we?”

It’s sort of like saying “well, the patient isn’t dead yet, so let’s withhold treatment until he is, okay? We wouldn’t want to rush things or jump the gun…”

I mean, if the LAF has proven to be unable to maintain norms not just of Anglicanism but of basic Scriptural and Creedal Christianity—and if an international communion is actually a desirable thing—then surely the proper thing to do is to act now to create and establish that desirable thing… not to wait another few decades in the hope that it’ll all somehow “fix itself” in the course of its increasingly precipitous slide down the slippery slope.

And the first step in avoiding that slide is to say that the current situation is unacceptable, the current LAF of the “Anglican Communion” bankrupt and (in itself) meaningless and worthless (despite the worthwhileness [is that a word?] of many of its constituents)... and to set about doing something about it.

Yes, doing something about it may take a while—and it may take work to get a majority to agree on what actual shape the alternative needs to take. But as in any recovery—Apostates Anonymous anyone?—the first step is to admit that there is a problem. I.e. to say that the “Anglican Communion isn’t a communion”; to say that “member jurisdictions are not in communion with each other”; to say that “what we have now that defines the ‘Anglican Communion’ is more-or-less worthless and ineffective, and needs to be replaced.”

And from the sound of some of what Greg and Matt have written, it sounds as if there are more than a few who aren’t willing even to take that first step of clearly confronting, admitting, and articulating that problem. Who are content to keep sliding down the same old slippery slope—protesting all the way, perhaps, but nevertheless doing nothing to stop the slide.

.

Y’all who have your fingers on the pulse (and in the pie) of GAFCON can tell me… is this a fair read of the “warning signs” that some folks there are reporting… or is this too negative a perspective on the actual resolution and vision of the majority there?

.

pax,
LP

[3] Posted by LP on 06-25-2008 at 10:35 PM • top

Wouldn’t this be as simple as individual bishops, priests, deacons, and lay people deciding to have a clear and undivided conscience about whom to take or not take the Lord’s Supper with? Isn’t the instrument of unity the Eucharist?

If a Bishop decides not to take communion with a TEC or ACC bishop, wouldn’t that be enough? Isn’t the Lord’s Supper, by design of the Lord himself, meant to be that line in the sand?

The declaration that TEC and ACC are apostate is made in simply not taking the Lord’s Supper with them. But what about the faithful within the ranks of wayward provinces? For conscience sake, this just seems so simple. Anyone under the authority of a wayward bishop who does not agree with the wayward bishop must pull away from that bishop. This is basic Christianity? “Don’t even eat with such a one.” There is a cost for doing that, but that is the point.

It seems that on some level, the lack of clarity and the thick of fog of ambiguity, are simply the result in the long run of believers unwilling to suffer. I know Anglicans that have counted the cost of differentiation. They have paid a steep, steep price. They gave up salaries, properties, vehicles, comfort, and succor from many material blessings. They also paid some cash! But now they are filled with joy and the power of the Spirit. “Unless you hate your father and your mother and your brothers and sisters, you cannot be my disciple.” In this case, simply drawing a line in the sand by means of the Lord’s Supper seems all that is necessary and sufficient to remove TEC and ACC from the Anglican communion (small “c”). They are removed ipso facto if enough believers say so, regardless of what any piece of paper may or may not say. After all the law is for the lawless, and we can appeal to the Spirit. But we must obey and break fellowship with the wayward, unequivocally, if they are to repent and we are to be healed of infection.

Isn’t this true?

[4] Posted by dbonneville on 06-25-2008 at 10:35 PM • top

My absolute lowest expectation is that GAFCON will turn out to be a big pity-party (I doubt it, but work with me).  Even if that were true, ‘Junior’ (to borrow from the GAFCON Parable) will have grown some cj’s and initiated his own action; rather than waiting for Dad to finally step up to the plate.  ++RW did not initiate GAFCON, and he did not neglect to extend GAFCON invites to heretics, either. 

..That was us.

[5] Posted by Moot on 06-25-2008 at 10:37 PM • top

Patience, let’s wait till the conference is over !

[6] Posted by obadiahslope on 06-25-2008 at 11:10 PM • top

Cool it folks.

We have come a long way from 30 September 2007 to a meeting of 1200 good people representing about 35 million of the World’s Anglicans. The second guessers were wrong who said this meeting couldn’t be arranged.

The contrast between MSM/TEC reporting and the video reports from Anglican TV clearly demonstrate the spin and mischief of the “progressives” before the world and Anglican membership. This meeting scares the “progressives.”

I expect much is being done behind the scenes in organizing the orthodox movement and there will be actions in coming months.

The blogs and MSM do not control the availability of participants, and what they should say and when they should say it. Get praying for all who represent us in Jerusalem and stop trying to pull a golden calf out of the fire. The “progressives” certainly will support your disunity and delight in pressing you to design the calf.

IMHO, there is already great accomplishment in Jerusalem and much more to come. Let the Holy Spirit guide them in reforming the Church.

[7] Posted by Dr. N. on 06-25-2008 at 11:24 PM • top

I doubt that many of them can afford two conferences and so they probably chose the conference which would be most meaningful to their Churches and their people.

[8] Posted by Betty See on 06-26-2008 at 12:16 AM • top

Archbishop Greg Venables is going to Lambeth, and he is quite capable of speaking for the others.  Besides, there is nothing of consequence to be discussed or determined on the agenda, at the ABC’s direction.  If I were going to London to wine and dine, I would choose people with whom I would enjoy their company.

[9] Posted by Daniel Lozier on 06-26-2008 at 12:34 AM • top

I am told there are some 187 bishops who qualify who are not yet signed up to Lambeth.

Bishops are continuing to register every day and the organisers expect there will be a last minute rush after this weekend.

[10] Posted by Martin Reynolds on 06-26-2008 at 01:33 AM • top

Chris Johnson points out correctly that there is no discipline in the Lambeth Fellowship.  The consecrators of Robinson are acceptable, and the approvers or enablers of same-sex blessings are acceptable, and so are the boundary-crossers.  On the other hand, the GA Fellowship/developing Communion has invited no consecrators of active gay bishops nor any blessers or enablers of same-sex activity.  They have also invited a broad range of North American Anglicans who have previously left the Lambeth Fellowship but have retained Anglican faith and Angican bishops.  The Reformation is underway, folks.  All GAFCON has to do is to pronounce a Covenant or a fast track to one, a program for continued communion and fellowship, and approval for the continued support for the now-coalescing Anglican diaspora in North America.  Lambeth won’t discipline them, and it doesn’t matter.  The Church of England can decide which way it wants to go—with the Global Anglicans to whom it gave the faith, or with the liberals.  There are enough conservatives in the CofE in enough numbers to make this possible, if they work hard at it.  And if they do, then we can hope that the CofE will rejoin itself to the communion of faith it founded.

[11] Posted by Katherine on 06-26-2008 at 02:05 AM • top

I am quite encouraged by what I’ve seen so far.  Bottom line: I trust the leaders gathered in Jerusalem.

Remember, back at Pentecost, the apostles didn’t really have a detailed game plan either that spelled out the future expansion of the Church over the next five or ten years, much less the next five or ten centuries.  And they didn’t begin with a carefully worked out organizational structure.  They made it all up as they went, under the powerful leading of the Holy Spirit.

May our gracious and bountiful God, who has so often surprised us in the past, pour out his Spirit anew upon the faithful leaders gathered at GAFCon, as though it were a New Pentecost.  May signs and wonders flourish, and an explosion of church growth and conversions follow, now as then.

Back in Jerusalem, in the springtime of the Church, they “devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers” (Acts 2:42).  Is that not what is happening at GAFCon?  And the during that honeymoon period, the Lord “added to the number daily those who were being saved.”  May it be so again.

I remain full of hope.  New wineskins will emerge.  The best days of Anglicanism are yet to come.

David Handy+

[12] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 06-26-2008 at 04:24 AM • top

Greg, you’re preaching to the choir.  I’m way past ready to see some real committment made here.

Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions. I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people. Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: neither let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause.

I’ve been contemplating leaving for 2 years and still I’m here.  How much longer I will continue to put up with this incesant dithering, I can’t say.  I am tired of waiting for Anglicanism to demonstrate that it is still a Christian (C)hurch and unite against the heresy being taught by the “modernists”.  “The Way, The Truth, And The Life” made a great statement - but it is only words without some action to support it.  I am expectantly continuing to wait with prayerful hope that “something” will happen at GAFCon to convince me to stay.  I am well aware that not all TEC congregations are apostic.  I belong to one that is very much orthodox and traditional and I thank God for it.  Were it not so, I would have left already.  Just the thought of being associated with TEC puts a horrible taste in my mouth.  It is so terribly hard to witness effectively when you have to start every conversation by denying the latest words of your national (c)hurch leadership.  I pray that GAFCon provides some much needed answers and hope for the future.

[13] Posted by Donal Clair on 06-26-2008 at 04:25 AM • top

Sorry, that I failed to include the source in my last message. The Bible passage was from Psalm 35.

[14] Posted by Donal Clair on 06-26-2008 at 04:28 AM • top

DBonneville, Dr. N and Katherine are right.
Don’t listen to the naysayers, the media, the HOB/D or the agendites, they cant see straight (John 3:3)

The old communion is cancerous and is an invalid at this time…her organs (instruments) have ceased to function…but it is a plastic, living Body in process, and capable of regeneration…of being re-born, resurrected, in the power of the Living God.  Birth is messy, bloody, painful, risky, but it is a process that must be endured, cannot be avoided.  In a sense, birth-giving requires we risk all and walk through the valley of the shadow of death - death to our will be done, our kingdoms and fiefdoms, our comfort zone, our hidden sins, our desires, passions, preferences, proclivities.  Renewal and rebirth requires surrender of pride, self-reliance, control, decorum and modesty to assure the new life comes forth safely. 

For a successful delivery, we have to depend upon and obey the Physician, His will, design, wisdom, knowledge, power, mercy.  When we embrace the process he has decreed and cooperate with Him, walking through the pain of repentance, honesty, humility, then joy follows, uprightness, uprightness,  re-orientation, restoration and reconciliation with God and each other follows…‘afterward it yeilds the peaceable fruit of righteousness.’

Much work has been done and much progress has been made.  There will be a council of orthodox, a covenant designed by the orthodox, and a catechism written by orthodox, all encompassing and safeguarding the ancient truth. 

The current ‘instruments’ and sources of disunity and unrighteousness, political power-mongering, etc. will be abandoned, set apart, disregarded and as DBonneville writes, the orthodox will be out of with the apostates until repentance and there is evidence of repentance.  This is what the Scriptures, both OT and NT teach.

My prayer for GAFCON is that all will be equals, none will feel superior, entitled, ambitious, competitive, assured their way is the only and right path…but all will yeild to His will, for His sake…to Him alone be glory in the Church.  We must remind ourselves as we take the Bread, that Christ’s own food was to ‘do the will of the Father.’  We must never forget, always remind ourselves that ‘apart from Him, we can do nothing.’  (Ephesians 3:20-21; John4::34; John 15:5)

[15] Posted by Theodora on 06-26-2008 at 04:52 AM • top

Ah, for old fashioned patience!  Remember, this is the first global Anglican gathering that includes not only bishops - but clergy and the laity as well.  The sign of the health of this gathering is that that observers - including the media sitting with their bags of popcorn waiting for a schism - fail to recognize the sheer miracle that all these people are gathering together for the first time since The Episcopal Church began breaking up thirty years ago - a hundred years ago - and are still there.

For those of us who have grown up in blended families know, it’s far easier to stand on a hillside pointing at everyone else about how things should be done.  It’s quite another to actually have to stay in the same room and get along.  The progressives blew it by inadvertently assuming unity on this group that we would all being the one to break up the Communion.  That assumes unity on the part of the GAFCON pilgrims.  The miracle of GAFCON is that these people, after decades of broken trust in the DNA of our branch of Christianity, are being challenged to trust one another - hardly in secret, this is over a thousand people and in front of a worldwide live audience.  There’s been no storming out of the meeting, no shouting in the hall, no throwing china tea cups out the window - at least the press hasn’t caught it, still enamored as they are with getting their ring side seat to schism.  Now the real work begins and now is the time for all of us to stand with them and pray.

bb

[16] Posted by BabyBlue on 06-26-2008 at 04:56 AM • top

DBonneville, I cannot stress enough that your concept of the Eucharist and of our conscience as the arbiter and final instrument of unity. 

This is in accord with the Scriptures.  When we are re-born we are endowed with God-given inner compasses, (gyroscopes, homing GPS)instruments of discernment to ‘test the spirits whether they be of God’. 

We must abide in Christ, to keep these instruments tuned to Him.  We must guard (Proverbs 4:20-27) our hearts with ALL diligence.  This is our personal responsibility. 

We are each judged by our thoughts, words, deeds.  It is our job to be and remain aligned and reconciled to God, to hold to His definitions and view Truth, Love, Life in our ‘inward parts’ as well as our actions.

[17] Posted by Theodora on 06-26-2008 at 05:06 AM • top

Sorry, left out a word (#16) here: “There will be a
council of orthodox, a covenant designed by the orthodox, and a catechism
written by orthodox, all encompassing and safeguarding the ancient truth.
The current ‘instruments’ and sources of disunity and unrighteousness,
political power-mongering, etc. will be abandoned, set apart, disregarded
and as DBonneville writes, the orthodox will be out of *commuunion* with the apostates
until repentance and there is evidence of repentance.  This is what the
Scriptures, both OT and NT teach.”

[18] Posted by Theodora on 06-26-2008 at 05:12 AM • top

I am told there are some 187 bishops who qualify who are not yet signed up to Lambeth.

Bishops are continuing to register every day and the organisers expect there will be a last minute rush after this weekend.

Yes, I am sure that we will be seeing TEC bishops rushing to have their pictures taken with any Nigerian or Ugandan bishop who puts in an appearance at Lambeth.
Unless, of course, they all show up.  Which is Rowan’s and TEC’s worst nightmare.
The message I am getting from Gafcon is really pretty simple- the ball is in my court.  Conservative provinces have done everything in their power to “rescue” me.  The question for me is: am I willing to leave my comfy church and my neighbors and follow my convictions?
  How many of us who are complaining have joined the diocese of San Joaquin? Or, made plans to join Pittsburgh or Fort Worth or Quincy should their conventions vote to leave TEC? Why not? What’s to stop us? Diocesan boundaries? I don’t mean parishes, I mean individuals.  We could even go to our old church if we wish (you are baptized, after all) at least for the time being- until one side or the other declares excommunication.  Or join an AMiA or CANA congregation.  If they are too far away to attend regularly, get out your BCP and hold Morning Prayer in the living room on Sunday.
  Any time we think too much is being asked of us- giving up buildings, dividing congregations, arguments with old friends-, let us remember that Jesus Christ suffered on the cross FOR US. The Anglican Church in the US will be what we make it.  Let’s get to work and stop worrying about what the ABoC didn’t do yesterday, or about what Gafcon did or did not say.

[19] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-26-2008 at 05:55 AM • top

Concise statement, Greg. I’m not so sure the ABC is irrelevant. The brand name thing is still important.

With the top of the non-hierarchy acting in such a wishy-washy manner, the bold actions of local or provincial heads have a lot more influence on the brand name which is what we are seeing. On another thread, Chris Johnson had a list of break-communion fallout. It seems that the local congregations with a face of traditional, orthodox christian commitment but for whatever reason (mostly some form of ‘we-are-only-anglicans-in-relation-to-our-local-bishop’) limping along under the local bishop, will lose members and then be pressed from above to deliver the funds to keep the national organization burning. It is a no-win situation. And that in the short run.

GAFCON isn’t over yet. The international press has dealt its first blow. All seem to like the anglican brand name. And all of the venom, previously just under the cuff, directed toward the GS, will out in a flourish worthy of the bells and canons of a great overture.

“Early on, I described the Windsor Report as “an attempt by a church that is held together by trust, to deal with a member it has decided it can no longer trust.” That attempt has failed, because all egalitarian organizations - and like it or not, that’s what the Anglican Communion really is - are only as stable and coherent as their least stable and coherent members. In our case, that happens to be the “church” that has declared homosexual behavior a holy thing, gives its unqualified support to abortion up to partial-birth, and denies the uniqueness of the savior on whose Word it was once founded, and who made it very clear that He was the only way to the Father. Along the way, the Archbishop of Canterbury enabled, coddled, and covered up for this “church,” and in the process he has made himself irrelevant.” -Greg

[20] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 06-26-2008 at 06:13 AM • top

And I might add, the press is just news agencies. Either story plays well: Anglican Communion a bust!, Gafcon deals death blow to anglican communion!, Anglican communion stronger than ever without the global south! Basically, any story is reportable.

[21] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 06-26-2008 at 06:25 AM • top

Thus far, pre-Lambeth, Katherine, #12, seems right to me.  Things might change post-Lambeth, depending on who shows up and in what numbers.

I am somewhat incredulous that anyone would blame the ABC for any possible disappointment in GAFCON, however.

[22] Posted by Seen-Too-Much on 06-26-2008 at 06:43 AM • top

I have to remind myself that none of this changes me and my relationship with my Lord.  It doesn’t change my church, already safely removed from “the new things.”  I will go to church on Sunday (the high point of my week), make my pledge, drop off some food for the pantry, greet fellow worshipers, and generally make plans for a better and more holy week to come.  I am forever indebted to the individuals in my parish who have walked the walk and created a safe haven for folks like me. 

I know the Lord is at work at Gafcon; just look at the pictures!  But if you read the psalms you sure can see that the Lord works in His good ole’ time, not ours.  I will trust Him and just keep trying to keep company with Him to my best ability.

[23] Posted by GoodMissMurphy on 06-26-2008 at 06:43 AM • top

I appreciate DBonneville’s biblical analysis.  Table fellowship is the line of demarcation. 

A question, though.  What would this have meant for the 1st century Christians in Thyatira(?)—a situation terribly analogous to those of us stuck in the TEC with no continuing Anglican fellowship close at hand.

The apostle’s admonition not to eat with with “such a man” was directed at a case (1 Cor. 5) where a known infidel was in the midst of the church.  But when the church itself is ruled by an infidel, what then?  Did believers leave Thyatira and go over to Philadelphia?  While that option might be available to some in this more mobile age (though less feasible with rising gasoline prices), it seems the Lord stood ready to reward those who remained faithful to Him, even under Jezebel.  He places no other burden on them.

Pray for us, that we hold fast until He comes, and that we overcome and do His works until the end.

[24] Posted by Old Hop on 06-26-2008 at 06:44 AM • top

#20 Please do not leave out the Continuers. We’re out here celebrating an orthodox mass every Sunday.

[25] Posted by bob+ on 06-26-2008 at 06:58 AM • top

#26-
I did not mean to leave Continuing Churches out of orthodox Anglicanism.  My hope would be that they would join in the reshaping of the Communion.  However, I was addressing this particular comment to those who are in the Communion and/or Common Cause.  Which includes some, but not most, of the Continuing Churches (or such is my understanding, I will accept correction if I am in error).  My own sympathies lie with the signers of the Affirmation of St. Louis.  But at the same time, I feel some responsibility for what has happened in TEC (having been one who sat by, realized what was happening, and did nothing while waiting for someone to come along and fix the problem).  That being the case, I would like to be part of the solution.  I see the Continuing Churches as a place of safe harbor, but for the most part (other than those participating in Common Cause) not active participants in reforming Anglican churches in the “Western World”.

[26] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-26-2008 at 07:17 AM • top

My analysis runs toward LP’s remarks in #12 although I don’t think that it asks too much to have patience during GAFCON and Lambeth and to pray that God touches their hearts and ours. Of course, some American dioceses better have a plan of action in the works immediately following Lambeth or they are likely to lose both their bishops and their places of worship.  Of course, they need no such reminder from me.
Any solutions will obviously need to match one’s understanding of the problems in order to be understood as efficacious.  I would recall the words of Archbishop Michael Ramsey in saying that the separation of the CofE from Rome was never meant to be permanent.  I would recall the words of Archbishop Rowan Williams in saying that the worship that most inspired his heart was the liturgy of Eastern Orthodoxy.  I would recall to you the words of C.S. Lewis as he portrays his children entering into Aslan’s country through the stable door ... at first they do not recognize where they are.  The experience of Anglicanism today is not that of discovery of Aslan’s country but of the abandoned castle.  When one is pulled from the busy workday and frenetic busyness of a train station into the ruins of Cair Paravel, the effects of lack of rule, of abandonment and of a long ago conquest initially hide from us both our own intended roles and our place.  May God open our hearts to follow our Lord.

[27] Posted by monologistos on 06-26-2008 at 08:09 AM • top

I’ve picked out a few comments from other bloggers:

Patience, let’s wait till the conference is over !

Cool it folks.

Ah, for old fashioned patience!

I am quite encouraged by what I’ve seen so far.  Bottom line: I trust the leaders gathered in Jerusalem.

To all these comments, I say “AMEN”.

If you’ve spent any time around the likes of ++Orombi and ++Venables and the others, you will agree that these are leaders to trust and to follow.  For all of us who “know” what needs to happen, let’s just be in prayer.  God is doing a great thing in Jerusalem this week—give thanks!

[28] Posted by hanks on 06-26-2008 at 08:13 AM • top

I see the Continuing Churches as a place of safe harbor, but for the most part (other than those participating in Common Cause) not active participants in reforming Anglican churches in the “Western World”.

As an aside, I should point out that the only genuine “Continuing” membership (in the Synod-of-St-Louis Affirmation-of-St-Louis sense) in the CCP is the APA. The REC comes from a protestant schism of the 19th century; the EMC left PEcUSA only in the 1990s; the AMiA and so forth only in 2000. And the APA itself has mixed roots—it is a splinter (though a sizeable one) from the ACA, which itself was formed by a union between some bishops of the ACC (a Continuing jurisdiction)—some of those bishops under censure or deposed—with the AEC (a 1960s splinter whose leader, bishop Clavier, actually returned to PEcUSA in the 1990s).

So - at least if I’ve got its membership correct—the CCP, at the moment, really has very few “Continuing” credentials among the non-PEcUSA groups affiliated with it.

.

The problem from the genuine Continuing perspective, to put it bluntly, is that the CCP’s kind of reform isn’t good enough. Because what this “new reformation” is offering global Anglicanism is, more or less, a return to the PEcUSA of the 1990s.

Sure, with a clearer articulation of moral theology and commitment to the plain reading of Scripture. But also, at least in some quarters, the acceptance of W.O., the prejudice against traditional patristic / catholic / orthodox practices (e.g. invocation of the saints, veneration of icons, traditional liturgy), a rejection of some of the Ecumenical Councils, and a Calvinist/Protestant interpretation of the 39 Articles which is made more normative than patristic consensus and those Ecumenical councils.

To join up with such a project—to be “active participants” in a “reformation” focused on those goals—would be to give up anglocatholicism. And to cease sheltering and healing its own people—as well as all those new refugees who come to its save harbor—for the sake of taking everyone out to go through another shipwreck all over again. It’s one thing to send lifeboats out from the beach to help survivors make it to shore—it’s quite another to decamp and take everything and everybody wholesale back out into that storm which you have only just now, by the grace of God, survived and escaped.

.

Yes, the Continuers share a common “Christian” heretage with this “New Reformation” in commitment to the primary authority of Scripture, in upholding traditional Christian moral theology, in belief in the orthodox norms of Trinitarian theology and Christology. Just as they share those same commitments with the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Confessional Lutherans, etc.

But some the other things being urged as normative for this “New Reformation” (at least in some visions of what it will be) flatly reject some of the fundamental principles of the anglocatholicism described by the Affirmation of St. Louis which is what the Continuum upholds. To join such a “New Reformation” (at least as it currently exists) would be just as much an abandonment of the “catholicism” of anglocatholicism as the TAC’s apparent decision to convert to Roman Catholicism is (or would be) an abandonment of the “Anglicanism” of anglocatholicism.

.

Thus to criticize the Continuum for being “uninvolved” is, when it gets right down to it, to criticize them for not committing suicide to give funds, support and legitimacy to a (still rather inchoate) movement which rejects much of the anglocatholicism which the Continuum stands for.

The fact is, the Continuum has already had its “Reformation”—and, frankly, has quite enough on its plate now in (having preserved and protected that traditional Anglican theology and identity) reconsolidating the different splinters created (sometimes - though not always - created for thoroughly inadequate and egocentric reasons) in that process.

If another “Reformation” is in the works—an Anglican Protestant reformation against the Angloapostates among those who have rejected the alternative and safe harbor offered by the Continuum—well and good. More power to them; may it be blessed. But the kind of “Anglicanism” that new reformation is offering is (or, at least, at the moment appears to be) still past the “line” which the Continuers refused to cross back in the late ‘70s.

Or, at least, that’s my impression of the situation.

.

pax,
LP

[29] Posted by LP on 06-26-2008 at 08:22 AM • top

Differences over sexuality are masking the much deeper differences over Christology, which became painfully evident to me when I listened to the PB last winter in Birmingham and as I googled the websites of all of the ECUSA parishes here in Tucson in an unsuccessful attempt to find among them a place I would be comfortable to worship.  For me, in this place at this time, Anglicanism is done, and I need to look to a different denomination.  I am saddened by this as the classic Anglican liturgy (Rite I and earlier) is the best I have seen to date in Christendom.

[30] Posted by physician without health on 06-26-2008 at 08:31 AM • top

For the Continuers: There is a time in a difficult situation where one can, in good conscience, give benefit of the doubt to someone even if it’s not warranted. This is grace. “Love covers a multitude of sins.” and “It is the glory of a king to overlook and offence.” There is a time for that. But, nothing is static. There comes a time when this benefit can no longer be given.

When does this happen?

It happens individually as the Spirit moves individual consciences. But we are influenced by the working of the Spirit in one another. If believers that we trust have taken an action in good conscience, we are accountable to their witness. We can’t just say, simply, that “what’s good for you is good for you”. There may come a time where saying “I’m continuing” might mean mean “I’m not ready to be counted” or “I’m not willing to be counted”. Already, the PB of TEC is not a believer, and so in taking communion from a priest who is under a bishop who is under the PB of TEC, there is very deep issue of conscience. There is adultery in the house.

Yes, there is a time for perseverance and or hiding in the ambiguity. But all things come to the light, and all that is hidden is exposed. If you are a sheep, you don’t want to be found in the goat pen when the Shepherd shows up to separate. Unless of course you are a goat and the separating doesn’t make sense. Too many, this process today makes no sense. As the sheep pull to one side in response to the voice of the shepherd, the goats respond with “Why are you judging us?” or “Why are you leaving us?” but never “Thanks for exposing us!” Goats get belligerent.

The question about what to do when it’s those above who have gone astray is simple. Don’t take the Lord’s Supper with those you know are in a state of disobedience. This needs to be worked out individually. Pray for discernment and courage because you’ll need both. Refraining from the sacrament is an offensive, not defensive move. It’s worth some thought, anyway.

The Lord’s Supper differentiates between sheep and goats, and we are called to stand alone before God in good conscience regarding our choices about who we keep the feast with. Grace extends, even to the snatching of some from the fire. In extending grace this far, some are putting the fire in their laps while denying anything is wrong through a twisted grimace of concealed pain.

[31] Posted by dbonneville on 06-26-2008 at 08:43 AM • top

LP, the problem that I see with the Continuing churches is that they are fragmented into at least twenty denominations at last count.  And I know I’m not alone in my assessment.  If they are ever going to amount to anything, they are going to HAVE to come together as one united Church.  Otherwise, they’ll be in the backwater, where they are now.

[32] Posted by Cennydd on 06-26-2008 at 08:47 AM • top

Already, the PB of TEC is not a believer, and so in taking communion from a priest who is under a bishop who is under the PB of TEC, there is very deep issue of conscience. There is adultery in the house.

I need to qualify this statement by saying that the PB of TEC is acting like a non-believer, and that repentance is always possible, and even adultery can be healed. But there can be no peace or safety when conscience is laid down to sit at table with those that walk apart.

Parable:
You are in a helicopter about to run out of gas, and are hovering over two boats. Both boats are headed towards a waterfall. You can pick one to land on. One has a nice landing deck and tea party going on, but no apparent concern for the falls ahead. The other has no landing deck to speak of, is leaking, and people are fussing about the helm with maps and compasses. But, someone is waving you down to land, seeing your predicament. Which boat is that person waving from? And who is likely going to avoid the falls? As you ponder this, a goat sitting sitting next to you in your helicopter suddenly blurts out “False dichotomy! B-a-a-a-d!”

[33] Posted by dbonneville on 06-26-2008 at 08:59 AM • top

LP, the problem that I see with the Continuing churches is that they are fragmented into at least twenty denominations at last count.

For all practical purposes, this isn’t true.

.

First, there’s this bad habit of calling any non-PEcUSA group a “Continuing” church, when the name applies properly only to those coming from the Synod of St. Louis and holding to the Affirmation. Groups like the REC or the EMC, with other origins, aren’t “Continuing churches” in that sense. Likewise the CEC and the CEEC, which not only don’t originate with the Synod of St. Louis but not even from the Episcopal Church or Anglicanism, as their origins were non-denominational charismatics who have come to Anglicanism from the “outside”.

.

Second, while there are a variety of small groups which trace their origins to St. Louis, a lot of them are, frankly, tiny splinters under unreliable leaders who left when “called out”. There is (for example) I believe a “Continuing jurisdiction” in the southwest which consists of a bishop with one parish who was kicked out of his former Continuing jurisdiction for fraud and embezzlement, was convicted in civil court and served jail time for it. You can count that one parish as one of your twenty “continuing jurisdictions” if you want—but I’d call that a misleading inflation of the actual figures.

.

Let me, for benefit of those lost in the confusing alphabet soup, give a quick thumbnail history which I’ve put together from several years listening to blogspace. I believe this is an accurate sketch, even if somewhat abbreviated:

The initial Continuing movement, lacking a sufficiently articulated and confirmed theological and institutional identity (perhaps because of making its break without another year or two of preparation) broke before it was officially formed into two groups—the ACC (Anglican Catholic Church) and the PCK (Province of Christ the King) in 1977. The former was, at the time, more “protestant”; the latter more “catholic”. There was also the ACCC (Anglican Catholic Church of Canada).

In 1985 (I think), feeling that the ACC was moving too far in a “catholic” direction, one of the original bishops and some parishes left the ACC to form the UECNA—United Episcopal Church of North America.

In 1991 (or so) the newly-forming Australia-based TAC approached the ACC to join up as its American jurisdiction, asking that merge, at the same time, with the 1960s splinter the AEC (American Episcopal Church) under its then-primate Clavier. The ACC, concerned over Clavier’s commitment to anglocatholicism, declined the latter part of the offer, prefering to take clergy on a case-by-case basis, but expressed interest in joining the TAC.

This interest was pre-empted by the defection of several ACC bishops (including their former primate who at that point [or so I’m told by ACC clergy] had resigned for cause) who merged with the AEC (performing mutual re-consecrations, which remains a sticking point) and created the ACA to join up with the TAC. The TAC accepted, which ended the ACC’s consideration of joining the TAC.

A few years later, Clavier quit the Continuing movement to return to PEcUSA, the ACA moved to elect a new archbishop, and some of its clergy and parishes left to form the APA (the Anglican Province of America).

Which means we have, from the original Continuing movement, five “main” groups: APCK, ACC, UECNA, ACA, APA.

There were several other breaks of much smaller scale (e.g. the HCC(AR)) which continue to this day but usually number only a handful of parishes. Some of these (such as the one cited above) are of very dubious origins and leadership; some are actually quite sound.

And there were also some non-Continuing groups which moved in and out of the Continuum—e.g. the DHC, formed in the 90s, which temporarily joined the APCK and then disassociated again, taking a few former APCK parishes with it.

.

What this boils down to, though, is that there are 3 groups formed by the “original” bishops of the Continuum—the APCK, the ACC, and the UECNA—and 2 large groups which broke off form the ACC (the ACA and, from them, the APA) that represent, between them, probably over 90% of the “Continuing parishes”. In a penumbra around that you’ll find the other dozen or so small jurisdictions—of various actual “Continuing” provenance—which only have a few parishes between them. The old Continuing joke about the jurisdiction which consists of “the bishop, his wife, and the dog.”

.

Now, the APA - which worked on (at least for a while) joining up with the REC - has cast its lot in with the CCP and the “New Reformation.”

The ACA—or, at least, the leadership of the TAC—seems to be working on converting to Roman Catholicism in an organized “Anglican-liturgy enclave” of more lasting integrity than the Roman’s ad hoc “Anglican Use” provision.

Of the “main” groups, then, you really have the APCK, the ACC and the UECNA that are preserving the anglocatholicism of the “Affirmation of St. Louis” rather than looking toward mergers either with the Roman Catholics or with federations of “angloprotestants”.

The ACC and the UECNA have already—in 2007 I think—signed a Concordat of full sacramental intercommuion. The APCK hasn’t gone quite that far yet, but has formally stated that it looks to the ACC and the UECNA, as the other parts of the original movement, as its logical communion partners.

.

No, this isn’t idea… but it’s certainly a far cry from the inchoate and infighting “dozens of” or “forty” parishes which non- (and anti-) Continuers like to mischaracterize the movement… an Episcopal “parlor game” among not just the angloapostates but the angloprotestants of the last few decades.

Now, this certainly isn’t to say that there aren’t shameful and inexcusable divisions among the Continuing movement, nor that it hasn’t had its share of in-fighting and poor leadership choices. That’s certainly been the case.

But it is to say that the situation isn’t as dire as you make it out.

.

In point of fact, the “mainline” Continuing jurisdictions are not only more theologically sound than PEcUSA (obviously) but they are also less variated and divided than the current CCP / GAFCON jurisdictions.

After all, with all the different African jurisdictions, the people who still remain in PEcUSA (+Iker, +Duncan, etc), the AMiA, the AMiC, the REC, the APA etc… there are, quite frankly, more jurisdictions—and a less coherent theological and liturgical identity—represented by the various federations of the GAFCON-based “New Reformation” than there are comprising the genuine, Synod-of-St.-Louis-based “Continuing movement.”

.

Of course, some will say “ah, but most of these GAFCON entities (well, except the REC, the APA, the EMC, the DHC, etc) are in the official ‘Anglican Communion’”. (Oh, and not the AMiA or CANA either, if one accepts the “invitation to Lambeth” definition of the “official Anglican Communion” which is about the only definition going.)

To which my answer is, naturally, “so what”. Even those “traditionalists” still in the “Anglican Communion” have been forced to admit how meaningless that really is.

.

In short, I submit to you that the genuine “Continuing Church” jurisdictions have more theological coherence and less jurisdictional division than does this nascent GAFCON / “New Reformation” movement.

.

pax,
LP

[34] Posted by LP on 06-26-2008 at 09:36 AM • top

PS - of related interest (on the theological side of things) may be the most recent post over at the Anglican Continuum blog, which I read after writing my post above:

http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2008/06/single-issue-theology.html

pax,
LP

[35] Posted by LP on 06-26-2008 at 09:46 AM • top

LP, thanks for you interesting history.  One question:  How do they stand demographically, in terms of membership, size of parishes, attendence vs membership, age of members, new baptisms, etc?  The one ACC church I’ve visited had only one person under 18 visible, and that was an acoylte.  Of course, I know of a local Southern Baptist congregation with comparable demographics, while other SB congregations have thriving youth programs, so I hesitate to use one ACC parish as the model of all the Continuing Churches.

I’m kinda betwixt and between right now.  I can’t decide whether to suck it up on the WO issue and join an Anglican District of Virginia parish, go to an ideologically more traditional but tiny and demographically challanged ACC parish, return to the Southern Baptist church of my youth and most of my family, or follow my brother into Eastern Orthodoxy.

[36] Posted by AndrewA on 06-26-2008 at 09:53 AM • top

David Handy+ (13) wrote:

Bottom line: I trust the leaders gathered in Jerusalem.

I would tweak this slightly and say that I trust the Holy Spirit who is guiding these leaders. That’s what makes them trustworthy.

It seems to me that the issue of trust in God’s working out his will, in part, through GAFCON, is THE issue that is most challenging to those of us on the ground. I am saddened to see the amount of fear/anxiety expressed in this and other recent GAFCON-related threads (not to mention the commentary that prompted the threads in the first place).

Are we people of hope who trust in the Lord to work his will, even when it might be contrary to our own desires/expectations, or not? If not, we’ve go no Good News to proclaim to anybody because we are ultimately saying that we don’t think God really does “in all things work for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” Rom. 8:28 (NIV).

I believe GAFCON’s leadership does love the Lord and that consequently they have been called according to his purpose. And so we are back to David’s+ quote above that I tweaked.

[37] Posted by Kevin Maney+ on 06-26-2008 at 09:58 AM • top

Thanks LP. I would have needed several hours of research to map out the history as you have. I think my original point stands- that the Continuing Churches are not taking an active role in the “current unpleasantness”.  You are certainly correct in terms of their theological cohesiveness. 
May the Lord guide us all in the coming days and weeks, and give us all patience and charity.
TJ

[38] Posted by tjmcmahon on 06-26-2008 at 10:06 AM • top

LP, thanks for you interesting history.  One question:  How do they stand demographically, in terms of membership, size of parishes, attendence vs membership, age of members, new baptisms, etc?

A “scientific” answer to those questions is even harder to come by than the actual ASA or membership of PEcUSA… one can only go on experience.

My own has been that it varies widely not just from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but from parish to parish. One of the things that many anglocatholic parishes have working against them is that they’ve started from “scratch”, meaning it’s an uphill battle to get to the point of owning their own building and having enough facilities that families with children—who often will make church membership choices based first and foremost on what’s there for the kids, rather than on theology or sacraments—are attracted and stay.

.

That said, I know of plenty of Continuing parishes that have a vibrant young community… as well as of those which are just as much a “mortuary society” as their PEcUSA counterparts.

But, as with all churches and parishes, the “Great Commission” is an on-going struggle… parishes rise and fall, prosper and wither, depending on the investment of their congregations. Today’s big parish may be tomorrow’s tiny one, and vice versa.

One thing I think it safe to say is that anglocatholic parishes will actively resist the “mega church” model, where the close spiritual mentoring of laity by their clergy, and the “community” sense of corporate worship, becomes increasingly difficult.

I know of one Continuing parish which started from 2 people and a priest, had its own building and a congregation of over 100 families within 10 years, and at that point—fearing they were getting too big—set up a mission parish to help “spread out” their congregation.

.

The fact is, though, if you’re going to make “size of jurisdiction” rather than “theology” or “sacraments” or “apostolic succession” your yardstick, forget Anglicanism right now and go join the Roman Catholics or the Southern Baptists.

If, on the other hand, your first priorities are theology, sacraments and jurisdictional integrity (including apostolic succession), then it’s on that basis you should make your first choices… even if that means your local parish is a small one that doesn’t hand you everything ready-made but is in need of more laity involvement to help it grow and prosper.

IMHO

.

pax,
LP

[39] Posted by LP on 06-26-2008 at 10:07 AM • top

I believe that the ABC has acted well and honorably. He has done everything he said that he would do, and is moving toward a Covenant that will make it impossible for ultra-liberals to sign and stay in the Communion. I think that Gafcon was planned as a way to push the ABC’s hand, and in fact failed in that purpose. However, it is a success in that it brought together a significant number of conservative christian leaders and encouraged a unified voice. In my opinion, the ABC still is in the powerful position, and things will play out in his terms, not terms dictated to him. All of which is not to say he doesn’t make, or has not made, mistakes, he is still human.

[40] Posted by FrVan on 06-26-2008 at 10:08 AM • top

LP, allow me to explain that my dillema is more then just size of jurisdiction, but an undecided view on theology.  I was raised Baptist.  During college I started down the Canterbury Trail, so to speak.  At first I figured that the 39 Articles were something I could live with from a Protestant point of view, but from being from fundamentalist background I was really uncomfortable with the whole WO issue.  The longer I explored Anglicanism, the more I started getting influenced by the Anglo-Catholic perspective.  However, at the same time, I also started discovering the Episcopagan side of the Episcopal Church and was EXTREMELY turned off by it.  About the same point I went from reading the Tracts to reading Cardinal Newman’s renuciations of Tractarianism. So now I’m at a cross roads.  Find some unhappy compromise an Anglican tradition that even in its purest forms is descended from a dubious system of Erastian compromise (heck, even a lot of the Anglican Catholic parishes can’t decide between 1928 and Anglican Missal, so use both)?  Do what Newman a go for a Church that knows what it believes and actually has as credible claim to constinecy and historiocity in its doctrinal teachings?  Or just throw up my hands on the whole thing and return to Scriptual Fundamentalism? 

Oh, the the reason I ask about demographics is to get a sense of how likely a denomination is going to remain a “going concern”, so to speak.  Many fedCon evangelicals like to trumpet TEC’s decling, aging population as a sign of ill health and now future, but I wonder if any of the traditionalist jurisidictions are really doing much better.  There doesn’t seem to be much fertile ground for Via Media in the US.  Those inclined towards Prostestantism are more likely to simply be Protestant and those inclined toward Catholicism are more likely to simply become Catholic.

[41] Posted by AndrewA on 06-26-2008 at 10:28 AM • top

AndrewA—

This sounds like a converation which needs to be held in a quiet pub over pints of Guinness rather than in electronic exchanges on a blog! grin

To try to address two points:

Find some unhappy compromise an Anglican tradition that even in its purest forms is descended from a dubious system of Erastian compromise (heck, even a lot of the Anglican Catholic parishes can’t decide between 1928 and Anglican Missal, so use both)?

The Erastian compromise has broken down (check for my post “Submitted by LP at 6/25/2008 9:12:49 AM” over at http://themcj.com/3872#Comments on this). I don’t think we’re going to be seeing anglocatholics and angloprotestants each compromising their own identity to “cohabit” much longer.

If I understand it correctly, the 1928 BCP and the Anglican Missal aren’t contradictory or mutually exclusive. The Missal is, in effect, the 1928 BCP with some additional prayers and rubrics added, not with 1928 elements or prayers replaced.

There are some 1928-BCP-only types (occasionally very vehemently so) which declare the Missal anathema and incompatible not just with the BCP but with Anglicanism. But this is an angloprotestant reaction which is reacting not to any incompatibility between the Missal and the ‘28 per se, but rather between the Missal and an angloprotestant use of the BCP.

The fact is the use of both is how the Missal is intended—as a supplement to, not an alternative to, the ‘28 BCP.

.

There doesn’t seem to be much fertile ground for Via Media in the US.  Those inclined towards Prostestantism are more likely to simply be Protestant and those inclined toward Catholicism are more likely to simply become Catholic.

I would argue that anglocatholicism IS “simply catholic”. “Catholic” in the sense of the patristic church and the shared Christian heritage… as opposed to the additions of “Roman” catholicism which isn’t shared either with the Orthodox or with anglocatholics.

I agree that the “via media”—in the sense of the shotgun marriage of ultimately incompatible “protestants” and “catholics”—is a failure. It was done for secular reasons in the context of a State church which gave the impetus to ride roughshod over that theological incompatibility… and those conditions no longer apply.

But that doesn’t mean there’s no hope for anglocatholicism. In fact, in itself that’s a good thing for anglocatholicism, for it takes away that urge to compromise basic catholic beliefs (at least to the extent of remaining in jurisdictional union with those who reject them) about things such as normative Tradition, the Ecumenical Councils, sacramental theology, etc.

.

As to your other point about “denominational future”... I think it’s virtually impossible, at this moment in history, confidently to predict either what the future of anglocatholicism will be or, for that matter, what ANY form of Anglicanism will be. Including whatever comes out (if anything) of GAFCON.

All I can say is that, for my part, I think anglocatholicism is (at least in principle) the most faithful expression of Scripture and Tradition both in theology and in ecclesiology, and that if it has any future, the seeds to that future are found in the Continuing movement… not in Rome, not in the CCP, not in GAFCON.

This isn’t to say that such a future is guaranteed, or that anglocatholicism will survive at all. It has a lot stacked against in—including (or so most would say) elements of “mismanagement” and infighting by its first generation of leaders.

But, to quote Monty Python, “we’re not dead yet!”

.

But, as I say, this sounds like a pints-of-Guinness conversation, not a blog one. As far as the subject of this thread itself goes, I repeat my most urgent point from the previous post:

I submit to you that the genuine “Continuing Church” jurisdictions have more theological coherence and less jurisdictional division than does this nascent GAFCON / “New Reformation” movement.

.

pax,
LP

[42] Posted by LP on 06-26-2008 at 10:48 AM • top

Lot of good analysis by Greg and in the comments.  I would mention a couple of quibbles, though.

1) The idea that the ABC doesn’t give a damn.  I disagree with many of his decisions and atctics, and support some of his reasoning.  But to make judgments about what’s in his heart should be done with fear and trepidation, as it’s exactly teh sort of thing Jesus warned against.

2) The presumption that GAFCON and/or its constituents must come up with an either/or plan right away.  By analogy, what are you going to do about your appendix, since it’s clearly irrelevant to your good health?  Best to ignore it rather than risk surgery just because it’s there; if it starts to threaten your well-being, then do something.  This whole crisis may have a profound effect on us North Americans, and some efect on the Global South; but if we truly believe that the ABC and the (current) Anglican Communion are ineffectual and irrelevant, it may be posible for all of us to simply get on with Mission, and cooperate with the old structures when it works, ignornig them when it doesn’t. I don’t personally like ambiguity, but sometimes that’s life.

[43] Posted by Connecticutian on 06-26-2008 at 10:56 AM • top

I am continually traumatized by meeting up with old Episcopalian friends who regularly read and honor as truth the Emails that pour out of Jack Spong’s heresy mill.  I am regularly traumatized to meet old friends, including family, who have ceased to believe in God, in prayer, in theology.  Instead, I see so many who have decided to stick with their Episcopalian parish because they have friends there and no place is perfect.  Others find the hypocrisy and triviality of a faithless church to be unrewarding and have ceased to participate in any form of Christianity.  I hold the Episocopal Church leadership partly to blame for this.  Certainly, there are faithful Christians everywhere and even faithful congregations.  But even as it is possible for God to work through sinners, it is possible for Christians to gather without constituting Church.  I do not and would not say that I know that the Body of Christ is not constituted by an Episcopalian gathering.  I do think bishops have an obligation to guard the unity of the faith.

[44] Posted by monologistos on 06-26-2008 at 11:23 AM • top

LP, I own an Anglican Missal and I think it beautiful liturgy, but that added prayers make explicit a Council of Trent understanding of sacrifice of the mass and the intercession of saints, and it also contains a theological forward to the Order of the Mass that spells out ideas that are anathema to a Protestant understanding of the 39 Articles.  The thing of it is, the Protestant understanding IS the historic norm for what was once referred to as the Protestant Episcopal Church of England and Ireland.  Newman himself rejected the Tract 90 understanding of the Articles. 

So do I go with the Anglo Catholic that say “This is what Anglicanism should have been” or do I go with the Orthodox that can say “This is the way we’ve always been”.

Oh, and never mind the disputes as to whether Filoque, the Roman understanding of Purgatory explicitly adopted by Tract 90 and assumed by the Requiem masses of Anglo-Catholicism, Immaculate Conception (considered dogma by many Anglo-Catholics) etc.

Of course, if I go the Eastern route, I also have to write off pretty much the entirety of Western Christianity as a bad idea.

[45] Posted by AndrewA on 06-26-2008 at 11:45 AM • top

Looking at the Talmud, we can see divergent opinion about Scripture in a rambling kind of unresolved manner. To this day, there is no Jewish systematic theology. Why can’t an element of this “New Reformation” be the rallying around what we can agree on, while not being dogmatic about secondary issues or even certain primary issues, but all be under one tent? Fragmentation is useless. What are we raising our children into? What are we handing them? Let’s at least hand them adoration of Jesus in the sacraments, under one tent, as much as possible. Let’s hand them a light-bearing community and Communion. There is a glint of this kind of Judaic spirit in the nature of Anglicanism - no distinctive theology, tentativeness, and a high degree of adoration of God and his Word. Let’s build what we can build and put a roof over the heads of our descendants, spiritual and physical.

It’s always safer to roll back the clock to find commonality. But N.T. Wright and other are like him are catching flack for doing this, especially from hard-core Reformed folk. The issue isn’t what the Reformers, or later councils said about Scripture. It’s what Scripture says. There is a hint, ever so slight, of fundamentalism in the Continuing movement. Zeal is good as long as it doesn’t isolate. Isolation only leads to extinction. I’d compromise and learn to be tentative if it meant getting on a bigger boat with more people that live in the light and love Jesus.

“May then the GOD of patience and of comfort grant you to be of one mind towards one another according to Jesus Christ; that in one spirit, you may with one mouth glorify the GOD and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 15:5-6

[46] Posted by dbonneville on 06-26-2008 at 12:01 PM • top

dbonneville—nice thoughts—but those are what brought us to our present precarious position.  ECUSA and the CoE cannot even agree on what constitutes the primary matters of the Christian faith, let alone agree on what they are.  Sadly, we need to define the boundaries, or there will prove to be no boundaries.

[47] Posted by AnglicanXn on 06-26-2008 at 12:15 PM • top

Apostates and believers can’t dwell in the same tent of course. I’m not thinking of TEC and CoE at this point - that’s a goner apparently. But I was thinking specifically of the continuing churches. I recently met a seminarian who declined an invite to join and AMiA congregation close by for a pretty far-away REC church. He chose REC because it was much more “internally consistent”. The question begs how does this person fellowship and live and grow with a “more consistent” group that is pragmatically so far removed from his daily life (and budget for gas!). I don’t think he’ll find what he’s looking for, but with a mindset of looking for theological perfection, it may take decades if ever to realize that is wrong-headed. Does anyone want to find out after decades, and on multiple levels, that “I’m alone”? If the Spirit works through love primarily, love should be the dictating factor in deciding with whom we cast our lot. Love is service and selflessness. Splintering occurs where love is gone. Even Luther didn’t envision a split. I’m convinced we can be convinced about different things, and yet be unified in some way. The world won’t believe in Jesus to the extent that the Church is not one. In recognizing our own dire poverty here in the States, we’d find a way forward. But when we are “rich” we don’t need anything or anyone. The theology is secondary, very much indeed. The mystery of Christ and our union in him is primary.

[48] Posted by dbonneville on 06-26-2008 at 12:35 PM • top

AndrewA—

1. “sacrifice of the mass” is one of those value-laden phrases which induce a knee-jerk anti-catholicism in anglo- (and other) protestants.

The whole question of the term “sacrifice” used in connection with the Eucharist—and the philosophic issues of “realism” etc—is too complicated to go into here, and I don’t have an adequate grasp of all the nuances myself. But the real question ought not to be so much what term is used as what theology it teaches.

What I think you’ll find taught in most Continuing parishes, however, is more or less this: as Anglicans, especially anglocatholics, we believe in the Real Presence. Christ really is present in the elements. Accordingly, the Eucharist being offered is a participation in the ONE Sacrifice of Christ offering Himself. It is not a re-sacrificing of Christ—that was done once for all and by Himself—nor does the breaking of the bread perform or accomplish that sacrifice. (Indeed, even the Roman’s transubstantiation explicitly rejects the idea that the accidents of the bread are predicated of Christ’s body, even if they in a unique way “belong” to it… breaking the host does not break Christ, who remains undivided in each portion of it.)

In this sense and interpretation, the word “sacrifice” is used not to describe the action of the priest but rather the Real Presence of Christ and His sacrifice, which isn’t merely “symbolically” or “memorially” present in the bread and wine.

Now, many protestants wouldn’t agree even with this much “realism” or “Real Presence”... I don’t mean to suggest otherwise. And this is far from even an adequate or complete sketch of the issue. But I think it points out the nub of the disagreement. The Protestant claim that catholics are constantly re-sacrificing Christ—that He repeats the Calvary experience over and over again—is simply an uninformed or malicious cavil which is flatly contradicted and rejected not only by anglocatholics, but by Roman Catholics as well. By contrast, the insistence upon the Real Presence in the Eucharist—and the real participation of that Eucharist in the once for all sacrifice of Christ of Himself—is a catholic understanding, and one anglocatholics hold to regardless of the objections of their angloprotestant brethren.

For it is, quite frankly, a more or less necessary consequence of the doctrine of the Real Presence.

.

2. “Intercession of saints”

This catholic and orthodox practice stretches back to the earliest decades of the Church and is testified (in theology, architecture, Church practice and law) from years before the canon of the New Testament itself was solidified.

Again, the inaccurate Protestant cavil that this involves “praying to the saints as one prays to God” is simply false. That’s not to say that some catholics ignorantly do just that—but that is a misunderstanding of the proper and official theology. And the misunderstanding of a theological position doesn’t invalidate the actual teaching… else we’d have no theology at all.

The “intercession” of the saints is simply asking them to pray for us, just as one would ask living fellow Christians to pray for us. It is not asking them to save us, but rather asking them to ask God to save us. It doesn’t ask them to do anything more “for” us than we regularly ask our neighbors—who can pray a prayer or lend a hand—to do for us as well. Again, a full discussion would get long, complicated and nuanced—but I think that’s the nub of the issue.

Again, not all Protestants would go along with even this mcuh. All I can say to those who reject the practice completely is to point out that, in doing so, they condemn the practice of the early Church, reject the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils, and set up some arbitrary new and restrictive Protestant law as more authoritative than the express teaching and practice of the early Church. That being the case, I’ll go with the early Church rather than modern Protestants every time.

.

3. “anathema to a Protestant understanding of the 39 Articles”

Absolutely. If you look at the Affirmation of St. Louis as a good “benchmark” for anglocatholicism, you’ll see that it expressly puts the authority of Scripture first, the normative interpretations and practices of Tradition (especially the Creeds and Councils) second. Only after these common catholic & orthodox authorities that are the heritage of the whole Church (East and West)—and subject to them—come specific Anglican formulae.

Once again, if angloprotestants want to make a Protestant/Calvinist interpretation of the 39 articles as the “norm” for Scriptural interpretation and other issues—and make them more authoritative than the Creeds, Councils and universal practice of the early Church—then they are going into revisionist novelties where anglocatholics will not follow.

.

Finally:

do I go with the Anglo Catholic that say “This is what Anglicanism should have been”

I think what anglocatholics say is, rather, “this is what the Anglican expression of ‘catholicism’ has always been.” Ever since the second generation of Anglicanism, and the arrival in England of extreme Calvinists from the Continent, there has also been a “protestant” wing included in what “Anglicanism” has meant. The two have, ultimately, never been compatible—something which has become unavoidable in recent decades—and I think all the anglocatholic does is to decide on which side of that divide (now that people are being forced, one way or the other, to chose) to fall.

the Orthodox that can say “This is the way we’ve always been”.

The Orthodox notion of “we haven’t changed since the 4th century” is as historically suspect as the claim in some Anglican circles of “the English church was never ‘Western’ but has been an Eastern-looking ‘Orthodoxy’ from the 3rd century on.” But this is more of a digression.

On the other East/West issues:

a. “Filioque”—admits of a patristic interpretation and heritage from some of the earliest centuries of the Church. When you get right down to it, the *real* nub of the disagreement is not that theology but the fact that Rome unilaterally added it to the Nicea-Constantinopalian Creed. It’s actually, first and foremost, an instance of disagreement over papal claims to universal ordinary jurisdiction and granting the papal office an authority equal to an Ecumenical Council.

b. Purgatory—another notion with a clear patristic (even a pre-Christian Jewish) pedigree… though some interpretations are more explicit and/or novel than others.

But as for equating the “Requiem masses” with this, that’s just silly. Sure, that’s one way to interpret them—“this mass is intended to be offered in memory of and in help for the purgatorial state of so-and-so’s soul.” But not all Requiem Masses are offered to be such… and, moreover, prayers for the souls of the departed need not be thought to help them *now*.

Not knowing the state of someone’s soul when they died, nothing stops me from praying now that God would help them then. Do you think God is limited by time, so that in the past He was ignorant of my prayers in the future? Of course not. God is outside time. My prayers *now* are just as effective for someone in the past (regardless of the “present” state or condition of their soul) as my prayers now are for someone else right now or in the future.

If there is any merit in praying for other people, then that merit is just as real when offered for people in the past.

d. “Immaculate Conception”

This is a Western one, and in the context of an Augustinian notion of original sin. While some anglocatholics consider this “dogma”, I think for most you’d find that this is considered one of those “pious beliefs”—even a true pious belief—that doesn’t rise to the level of mandatory “dogma”.

One of the thing which distinguishes anglocatholics from Roman Catholics is that Romans raise many more things—things not expressly or implicitly in Scripture, the Creeds and the Councils—to the level of “dogma”.

.

Anyway, there are a few (no doubt hopelessly inadequate) thumbnail reactions to the points you raise.

grin

pax,
LP

[49] Posted by LP on 06-26-2008 at 12:52 PM • top

The theology is secondary, very much indeed. The mystery of Christ and our union in him is primary.

This modern notion that theology is secondary—that we can more or less ignore it as a trivial preoccupation of intellectuals and just reside in some inchoate, undifferentiated “oneness” or “bonds of affection”—is precisely the mistaken mindset that allowed the Anglican Communion to get into the apostate incoherence that it is in today.

And it CERTAINLY is not the attitude of either Scripture or the Early Church to what Christianity means and how Christians should believe and act.

Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. (2 John 1:9-11)

he must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it. (Titus 1:9)

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine. (1 Tim 1:3)

I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. (Rom 16:17-18)

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. (2 Tim 4:3-4)

.

Yes, theology is not an end in itself, but has the goal of bringing all people to unity in Christ. If we get so distracted by theology that we neglect charity and the sacramental life, we’ve missed the point of theology itself. In that sense, theology is “secondary” to that mystical union.

However, the fact remains that sound theology is not optional for Christians, and, moreover, there cannot be true Christian charity or unity without sound theology.

Thus the attitude which says “theology is very much secondary” and means “we can ignore theology as long as we all just get along” (as opposed to meaning “theology is secondary because it is a means to an end… an end which requires that sound theology but is more than just theology”) is, quite frankly, the kind of attitude which is at the heart of the modern apostasy… and the kind of thing you’ll regularly hear from the homosexualists and other heretics.

.

Charity and spiritual unity with Christ transcend theology, yes. That doesn’t mean that they contradict it nor that we can take theology lightly or dismissively. Quite the contrary—because the end to which sound belief leads us is so transcendent, we ought to take sound theology all the more seriously because of what we risk losing if we reject that theology.

To do otherwise is like refusing to traveling along a path because the destination matters more than the way there. Sure it does. But that’s the reason to travel that path—not to stay at home refusing to move because the path isn’t, itself, the ultimate destination.

.

pax,
LP

[50] Posted by LP on 06-26-2008 at 01:15 PM • top

When I say secondary, I mean secondary. Not unimportant, but secondary. There is primary, and secondary, and tertiary, etc. It is of primary importance that people “love one another” and “love the Lord with all your heart…”. In a liberal wicked culture, this means something **quite** different from the meaning it had in the context the early Church.

Thus the attitude which says “theology is very much secondary” and means “we can ignore theology as long as we all just get along” (as opposed to meaning “theology is secondary because it is a means to an end… an end which requires that sound theology but is more than just theology”) is, quite frankly, the kind of attitude which is at the heart of the modern apostasy… and the kind of thing you’ll regularly hear from the homosexualists and other heretics.

This is absolutely true. And so how did TEC get to this place? It is because Christians have not loved each other. But I’m not talking about tea and crumpets and pasta dinners. I’m talking about love that stands up and confronts. “I opposed Peter to his face” out of love and “shall I come with a stick” out of love and “I am perplexed about you” out of love and “my soul takes no pleasure in cowards” and “remove such a one” out of love and “stop sinning or something worse will happen to you” and “reject a contentious man” out of love. It takes this kind of love to protect the church. This kind of love gains nothing for the one that dispenses it. It divides. It creates tension. It roots out. It is painful. This kind of love is born of only one place - a mystical union with Christ. A pure love of Christ and a powerful life unhindered by a bad conscience. It take the humiliation of confessed sins.

Theology teaches us skill in how to love, but you have to have the heart right first. A coward with a sword makes a useless soldier.

When is last time you (a figurative “you”) actually confronted a cantankerous person? When is the last time you stood ground and had others break fellowship with you? When is the last time you confronted a brother about his sins and had a complete mess on your hands as a result? This kind of love is what is missing, not some sappy feeling that says “you’re ok, I’m ok” or “include all at all costs”. I’m talking about the kind of love that excludes when necessary, and longs and burns for Christ, to the point it is willing to confront sin head on and not back down when the wicked threaten with instability.

Love is offensive, but “the wicked flee when no one persues”. However, the wicked don’t flee when Christians don’t love on the offensive. The wicked have not flown the 815 coop because they are not scared. There has been a failure to love in the power of Christ. This kind of love always will “silence the enemy and the avenger.” (Psalm 8)

[51] Posted by dbonneville on 06-26-2008 at 01:41 PM • top

Hopefully GAFCON will produce some serious “tough love” that works itself out in a “reformed” Anglicanism. Better put, a “dusted off” Anglicanism. Africa has lead the way in this regard. Praise the Lord for men like that!

[52] Posted by dbonneville on 06-26-2008 at 01:43 PM • top

True words, #52, #53 DBonneville.  That kind of tough, caring, concerned and courageous love comes from being clean, penitent, humble, filled with the Holy Spirit - AND - from loving Christ first and foremost. 

If self, office, job, status, salary, anything comes before Christ, if a person is compromised, he or she will not have that kind of holy boldness.

What you have said is the theme, what all the speakers have been been saying over and over from the beginning of GAFCON to today.

Hope everyone heard Fr. Vaughan Roberts preach today.

[53] Posted by Theodora on 06-26-2008 at 02:11 PM • top

Dear Mr. DBonneville,
The short answer to your question is:  never.  Not even once.  Well, perhaps my own children and husband, yes.  When I was a child, the mother of a church friend re-married after a divorce.  This was in the 1950’s.  The priest refused her at the rail and a great scandal ensued!  And that was the end of that priest.  The vestry canned him.  Oh, they all said it was because he slipped into Chinese now and then at midnight masses when he was tired, he’d been a missionary in China during WWII and had seen difficult times.  But my father was on the vestry (he never told me how he voted) and knew that the lady involved was from a wealthy and influential family.  I’m thinking that right around this time these battles were being fought in parishes all over the country and we are seeing the fruition of it all now.

Your post was inspiring to me.  I am going to print it and read it now and then.  But it will probably get me into trouble.

[54] Posted by GoodMissMurphy on 06-26-2008 at 02:28 PM • top

LP, my intent wasn’t so much to ignite a discussion on the relative merits of Anglo-Catholic vs Anglo-Protestant theology, but to suggest that the theological differences between the content of the Anglican Missal and the Book of Common Prayer 1928 should not be understated.  The Anglican Missal adds in things that were quite deliberatly removed in 1549 and even more so in 1552 and have not been reintroduced into any officially approved Anglican liturgy until recently.  The additional material is of dramatic theological significence.  I would also make the claim that while it may reflect what the Church in England always taught until the crown got involved in the 16th century, you’d be hard pressed to find Anglicans (as opposed to English Roman Catholics) between 1552 and 1833 that had a Tract 90 understanding of the Prayerbook and Articles, to include all the Catholic beliefs and practices in the Missal.  My intent is not to get into an argument over whether Tract 90 represents the way think ought to be, or to try to convince you to give up on your convictions (I think the Continuing Churches are doing fine work and I hope you continue to be involved with them).  I’m simply illustrating my own personal concerns about which way to go.

[55] Posted by AndrewA on 06-26-2008 at 02:54 PM • top

To Greg and Matt,
I am afraid that unless the leaders in GAFCON do not act now, then it will be as useless as Lambeth.  But let’s hope The Holy Ghost will make it worth so.
The Archbishop of Canterbury needs to either lead, follow or get out of the way.
But here in the states Anglicanism is dead and buried.  It will remain so regardless of the outcome of GAFCON.  We as Anglican Christians here in this country, whether Continuing Anglica, Old Anglican, or other Anglican missions from the Africans, we need to unite now in God’s grace to move forth in a very aggressive manner to reform, reclaim and rejuvenate the Anglican Church and faith.  This has got to be done here and done now.  No more talking. No more of wasting time.  We need to be unified now. 
The conservative bishops here have to make a aggressive move to stand for God.  They have to either lead, follow or get out of the way.
As a bishop in an Old Anglican jurisdiction I will not back down in pursuit of standing for Jesus. I will continue to do my part to reform, reclaim and rejuvenate the Anglican faith with the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
Greg and Matt need to do the same.
Pax,
+Stonewall

[56] Posted by BishopOfSaintJames on 06-26-2008 at 03:57 PM • top

AndrewA (#46) wrote:
So do I go with the Anglo Catholic that say “This is what Anglicanism should have been” or do I go with the Orthodox that can say “This is the way we’ve always been”. . . . Of course, if I go the Eastern route, I also have to write off pretty much the entirety of Western Christianity as a bad idea.

I’m arriving late, via LP’s link from another thread. (Nice overview, BTW, of the Continuing Church movement.) I write as an Anglo-Catholic who went “the Eastern route” last year.

In exploring Orthodoxy, you should be careful not to believe everything that some Orthodox Christian tells you is Orthodox. Orthodox polemicists usually pretend to speak authoritatively and to present the Orthodox position, even if they are just presenting their own understanding of the position of the faction they identify with. And even the clergy too often spread incorrect knowledge.

As LP said, you should be skeptical of claims that Orthodoxy has not changed since the 4th century - it’s simply not true. Our worship, for example, continued to evolve until the late middle ages. It became frozen in its current state not because it reached a state of perfection, but because the introduction of the printing press allowed the mass production of authoritative texts.

There have always been Eastern Christians who pronounced the Western Church to be in heresy or, even worse, totally lacking in divine grace - even before 1054. But there have usually been more reasoned voices to counter these extremists. I think the more ecumenically minded Orthodox, rather than dismissing the entirety of Western Christianity, would point to a few easily enumerated errors that have corrupted Western theology. It’s not hard to find Anglicans who agree with the typical Orthodox objections to Western theology.

The proof that Orthodoxy does not write off Western Christianity entirely is that we have parishes that follow the Western Rite.

[57] Posted by Roland on 06-29-2008 at 12:28 AM • top

LP,
Thanks so much for your excellent defense of the Anglo-Catholic position.  God bless you for articulating it so clearly and convincingly.
Evan Miller

[58] Posted by evan miller on 07-03-2008 at 09:01 AM • top

LP, I’ll second Evan’s comment (#59) and add a thanks for your charity in your defense, a quality I fear in trembling that I too often lack in mine and pray the Lord teaches to my heart.

[59] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 07-03-2008 at 09:11 AM • top

[commenter banned—cannot cease taking threads off topic]

[60] Posted by open.and.honest on 07-03-2008 at 10:40 AM • top

[comment deleted—off topic; please do not discuss bannings on any threads, as that is against our clearly stated comment policy; the commenter was banned after warnings and off-topics on several threads; for further information on the final thread at which the commenter was unable to cease the obsessive compulsive off-topics, surf here:http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/13787]

[61] Posted by oscewicee on 07-03-2008 at 10:44 AM • top

[comment deleted—off topic; please do not discuss bannings on any threads, as that is against our clearly stated comment policy; the commenter was banned after warnings and off-topics on several threads; for further information on the final thread at which the commenter was unable to cease the obsessive compulsive off-topics, surf here:http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/13787]

[62] Posted by oscewicee on 07-03-2008 at 10:50 AM • top

[comment deleted—off topic; please do not discuss bannings on any threads, as that is against our clearly stated comment policy; the commenter was banned after warnings and off-topics on several threads; for further information on the final thread at which the commenter was unable to cease the obsessive compulsive off-topics, surf here:http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/13787]

[63] Posted by evan miller on 07-03-2008 at 10:50 AM • top

Ahem, much as some would like to dispute it, the policies at StandFirm are rather clear. The moderators do a rather good job at enforcing them (They do lean over backwards for reappraisers, but that too is part of their policy). If you wish to post something that is contra the policies here, there are other venues. You can even take the radical step of set up your own website/facebook page/blog/message board.

I for one would welcome a comprehensive Anglo Catholic board, but am somewhat skeptical that such could be established.  We A-C’s tend to be rather contentious and peculiar and the oddest things set us off.

Do what I do, post the more universally applicable extemporanea here and save the more narrow doctrinal stuff for the appropriate venues, include your own venue.

Back on topic, I think given the men responsible for GAFCOn here in the US, adequate provision will be made for the more theologically enlightened amidst those of lower tastes.

wink

When I go to church, I get incensed.

[64] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 07-03-2008 at 10:50 AM • top

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