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Welcome to Stand Firm!

+Schori Interview Transcribed

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 • 11:20 am

Thanks to Binky over at CaNNet, we have a transcript of the NPS interview with Presiding Bishop Elect Katharine Schori.  Have the RealPlayer audio playing while you read.  It gives you the full impact of her hesitation to declare Jesus Christ as The Way, The Life and The Truth.


NPRhttp://www.npr.org/
Link to Interview (Requires RealPlayer)

“What are you: a Unitarian?!?”
October 18th NPR interview with +Schori
Transcribed by the CaNN News Editor

(Starts at 21:00)

RY: I’m Robin Young: it’s ‘Here & Now.’

Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, a former oceanographer, and a pilot, is slated to become the first woman to head The Episcopal Church of America—that will happen on November 1st. 

She’s inheriting a church divided on the ordination of homosexuals, and the blessing of same-sex unions. Her own election has precipitated a double-crisis over the role of women in the American Church.  Some Episcopal dioceses have asked to
leave because they don’t accept a woman as leader; and international Episcopal churches have also said they can’t accept a woman as head of a national church.

For her part, Bp. Katharine has been quoted as saying that if her opponents leave the table, she will rise to follow them to continue the dialogue.

Bishops Jefferts-Schori joins us now: welcome!

KJS: Thank you.

RY: And—boy!—as I read some of the recent history of the church, it does sound like a somewhat tough row to hoe [laugh] that you’re entering.

KJS: Well, I think all ages have their challenges: this is simply ours.

RY: Now, well, when you were elected Primate, that is, head of the U.S. Episcopal Church, you were quoted as saying “We’re not here to argue about matters of sexuality, we’re here to build a holy community”.. but as you know, there are people arguing about sexuality—what are you going to do to heal that?

KJS: Well, we’re going to keep conversing, we’re going to continue to ask people to met gay and lesbian Christians, and to begin seeing some of the fruits of their ministry.. uh, we’re going to continue to wrestle with these issues—they are the issues of our day, and the issues of recent generations have been about the place of women in the church, and the place of African-Americans in the church, and the place of immigrants in the church, and I simply see this as our current ..uh.. our current growth into a larger.. communion.

RY: Because why? Why do you believe so firmly that’s the right direction for the church?

KJS: Well, as a scientist and as a person of faith, I—I understand that sexual orientation is a given, for almost all people; it’s not a matter of choice, and in that case, if this is how people are created, then our job as a community of faith is to assist people in finding holy ways of living in relationship, and, uh, that’s what we’re about.

RY: What do you say to your congregants who say “Well, I also, you know, understand that there are people who might be gay or lesbian, but I just don’t want them as my bishop, as Gene Robinson is now in New Hampshire; or to be married in
the church that I also attend.” What do you.. what do you say to them?

KJS: Well, it’s a challenge. But I think God calls us into challenging situations, I think that’s how we grow.  The Early church dealt with it.. the place of Ggentiles in the church, do new Gentile converts have to be circumcised, did they have to live by
Jewish dietary laws, or could they be welcomed as they were? There will be another group after gay and lesbian Christians—I don’t know who it will be, but there will be another one, because that’s who we are as human beings.

RY: You mentioned that you were a scientist. I remember recently I was on a little field trip with A.O. Wilson, the scientist—

KJS: Oh, my..

RY:—and he calls himself a secular humanist, and he just says that as a scientist, he just has looked and looked and looked, and he’d be—he’s said ‘I’d love to be the one to prove there was a God—wouldn’t that be the greatest sceintific discovery?”  But he can’t see the proof. How about you? As a scientist, and scientists want to see proof of something, how do you—how are you then also a person of faith?

KJS: I came back—I was, uh, raised, you know, in the church—and I came back to the church as an adult when I was in graduate school, and began to read the physicists, who talk about mystery—Heisenberg, and Bohr, and Einstein. Here were people who were going down the same kinds of roads that I had gone down, saying “No, there’s something innately mysterious about creation, something beyond what we can deal with in scientific terms.” Hard science asks questions about ‘how, and ‘what’; and faith-traditions ask questions of meaning: what does it mean to be a human being in this world? How can I live a life that is good? Uhh…

RY: TIME Magazine asked you an interesting question, we thought, “Is belief in Jesus the only way to get to heaven?” And your answer, equally interesting, you said “We who practice the Christian tradition understand him as our vehicle to the divine. But for us to assume that God could not act in other ways is, I think, to put God in an awfully small box.”  And I read that and I said “What are you: a Unitarian?!?” [laughs]  What are you—that is another concern for people, because, they say Scripture says that Jesus says he was The Light and The Way and the only way to God the Father.

KJS: Christians understand that Jesus is the route to God. Umm—that is not to say that Muslims, or Sikhs, or Jains, come to God in a radically different way. They come to God through… human experience… through human experience of the divine. Christians talk about that in terms of Jesus.

RY: So you’re saying there are other ways to God.

KJS: Uhh… human communities have always searched for relationship that which is beyond them.. with the ultimate.. with the divine. For Christians, we say that our route to God is through Jesus. Uhh.. uh..that doesn’t mean that a Hindu.. uh.. doesn’t experience God except through Jesus. It-it-it says that Hindus and people of other faith traditions approach God through their.. own cultural contexts; they relate to God, they experience God in human relationships, as well as ones that transcend human relationships; and Christians would say those are our experiences of Jesus; of God through the experience of Jesus.

RY: It sounds like you’re saying it’s a parallel reality, but in another culture and language.

KJS: I think that’s accurate.. I think that’s accurate.

RY: Bishop Katharine: you have a fascinating life-story. Your Dad was a physicist, your Mom had a degree in literature, and became a biologist.  You, as we said, were an oceanographer, grew up in Seattle, you have a daughter who’s a 2nd Lieutenant, and a pilot in the Air Force—by the way, is she serving?

KJS: Uh, she’s serving stateside, and she’s a 1st Lieutenant.

RY: How about you? Do you still pilot a plane?

KJS: I do—I flew from Reno to Henderson yesterday.

RY: What kind of plane do you fly?

KJS: A Cessna 172.

RY: What does that do for you?

KJS: [silence]

RY: ..besides get you from A to B..

KJS: Oh. Oh.. that’s the easy part. Uh.. it’s, for me, an encounter with the vastness of creation, and the Creator.. it’s a reminder that I’m a very small piece of it.. that I’m constrained by human limits… uh, and it gives me a very different perspective on the world.

RY: Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori, slated to become head of the Episcopal Church of America on November the first. Thank you for speaking with us.

KJS: Oh, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you.

(28:55)


87 Comments • Print-friendlyPrint-friendly w/commentsShare on Facebook
Comments:

Join me in a rousing cheer:  “Binky, Binky he’s our man, if he can’t post it, no one can!”

Thanks Binks.

[1] Posted by Karen B. on 11-01-2006 at 11:28 AM • top

the Presiding Heretic speaks, and again, professes to NOT be a Christian

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/1384/

[2] Posted by Clay From Dallas on 11-01-2006 at 11:43 AM • top

oopsie!  I pasted alink!  my bad!

RY: TIME Magazine asked you an interesting question, we thought, “Is belief in Jesus the only way to get to heaven?” And your answer, equally interesting, you said “We who practice the Christian tradition understand him as our vehicle to the divine. But for us to assume that God could not act in other ways is, I think, to put God in an awfully small box.” And I read that and I said “What are you: a Unitarian?!?” [laughs] What are you—that is another concern for people, because, they say Scripture says that Jesus says he was The Light and The Way and the only way to God the Father.

KJS: Christians understand that Jesus is the route to God. Umm—that is not to say that Muslims, or Sikhs, or Jains, come to God in a radically different way. They come to God through… human experience… through human experience of the divine. Christians talk about that in terms of Jesus.

RY: So you’re saying there are other ways to God.

KJS: Uhh… human communities have always searched for relationship that which is beyond them.. with the ultimate.. with the divine. For Christians, we say that our route to God is through Jesus. Uhh.. uh..that doesn’t mean that a Hindu.. uh.. doesn’t experience God except through Jesus. It-it-it says that Hindus and people of other faith traditions approach God through their.. own cultural contexts; they relate to God, they experience God in human relationships, as well as ones that transcend human relationships; and Christians would say those are our experiences of Jesus; of God through the experience of Jesus.

[3] Posted by Clay From Dallas on 11-01-2006 at 11:44 AM • top

‘The man who will not believe God is making Him out to be a liar,because he is deliberately refusing to accept the testimony that God has given concerning His own Son.That is,that God has given men eternal life and this real life is to be found only in His Son.’ 1 John 5:10-11 Phillips NT
He who has the Son has the life;he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 1 John 5:12 NASB Updated
Seems pretty clear cut,Bishop Schiori.

[4] Posted by paddy on 11-01-2006 at 12:29 PM • top

Griswold said this weekend, in other words, that contemplating what Jesus WOULD do is irrelevent.  Now his replacement confirms her belief that one does not need Jesus to make it to Heaven.

Did Christ come to save the World, or not ?

Is Christ The Way, The Truth and The Life, or not ?

(hint: both can be answered without extended dialogue)

Frank has been fond of saying there is more that unites us than divides us.  Really ?

What might that be, Frank ?  I’d really like to know, because for TEC it doesn’t seem to involve the risen Son of God.

[5] Posted by Tom Cain on 11-01-2006 at 12:29 PM • top

I think they fail Christianity 101 in this case.  General question:

Why do any of those of us still in TEC stay?

The ship is mortally wounded, the foc’sle is under water, the screws are out of the water!

[6] Posted by Clay From Dallas on 11-01-2006 at 12:33 PM • top

Hindus do not worship our God. They worship a pantheon of various gods. What do they need ours for?

the snarkster

[7] Posted by the snarkster on 11-01-2006 at 12:34 PM • top

Can the communion charge her with apostasy or heresy?

[8] Posted by paddy on 11-01-2006 at 12:42 PM • top

can?  sure
will?  doubt it seriously

they’ll just shrug their shoulders and do nada I bet.

[9] Posted by Clay From Dallas on 11-01-2006 at 12:44 PM • top

Snakerster—
KJS actually gave a great exposition of traditional Hinduism, there is one Brahma and many manifestation of how we relate to Brahma.

[10] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 11-01-2006 at 12:45 PM • top

What an embarrassment.

[11] Posted by Marty the Baptist on 11-01-2006 at 12:47 PM • top

Fat fingers typing too quickly: “Snarkster.” My apologies for messing up your a screen name.

[12] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 11-01-2006 at 12:50 PM • top

Hosea 6:6,Let me put this as gently as I can
Brahman ain’t Jesus,never was,never will be.
At the best it can only be seen Biblically as a ‘so-called god’(1 Cor.8:5).

[13] Posted by paddy on 11-01-2006 at 12:56 PM • top

Thanks so much for posting the transcript.  If I am to respond to Schori, it really should be to her actual words.  That’s only fair.

And now that I’ve seen them—well, I agree with the rest of you.

[14] Posted by st. anonymous on 11-01-2006 at 12:58 PM • top

Oh I fully agree! I don’t think Brahman has anything to do with the “I am who I am. ” I do believe KJS does, at least by this interview.

[15] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 11-01-2006 at 12:59 PM • top

Although like a type of large male bovine,it can be recognized as a ‘lot of bull’ that can throw and step on whoever rides it.

[16] Posted by paddy on 11-01-2006 at 01:01 PM • top

Can agree with you there.Sorry for waxing sarcastic

[17] Posted by paddy on 11-01-2006 at 01:03 PM • top

What do I keep missing? I keep reading comments from Episopagan bishops about KJS’s “keen intellect”.... Perhaps she is intelligent though and its all the heretical babbling that prejudices me….

[18] Posted by via orthodoxy on 11-01-2006 at 01:12 PM • top

No trouble with the waxing. You’re correct to hold me to “who is Jesus?” He told use before the world “I am.” The Jews listening knew what He meant.

KJS did a pretty good job of explaining Hindu theology - Christian would have intense personal devotion to one form of Brahman and not the Way & the Truth. The ONLY way to the Father. She said a whole lot in this interview!

Thank you Binky & Jackie for your efforts. I have much more clarity on KJS “religious understanding.”

[19] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 11-01-2006 at 01:19 PM • top

She used 97 words to answer this question:

So you’re saying there are other ways to God.

That’s a lot of words to use when all she really wanted to say was “Yes.”

carl

[20] Posted by carl on 11-01-2006 at 01:31 PM • top

Well, just remember everyone, she’s a scientist. 

This just brings up once again the question we were asking after her first “vehicle” comment:  does she not realize how her comments will be viewed by a portion of her own church?  If not, then what the heck were the bishops thinking electing her when she is so clueless about the state of the national church? If yes, then what the heck was she thinking agreeing to lead the entire flock?

[21] Posted by Widening Gyre on 11-01-2006 at 01:48 PM • top

Tom,
The problem with your response is that it will require at least six more years to extend the listening process through our deaneries, dioceses, provinces and then through at least two general convening of the ridiculous to be able to adequately discharge our responsibilities in listening to this problem (if there really is a problem).
Only then can we say that we have partially exhausted the ramifications of this problem (if there really is a problem), and begin to implement the necessary change steps to remedy the problem (if there really is a problem).  Then, and only then, can we say that we have heard the problem (if there really is a problem)! 
After all, they are short, easy questions, aren’t they?

[22] Posted by Fr. Chip, SF on 11-01-2006 at 01:53 PM • top

If Jesus is not THE (and the Only Way) way to the Father, then God is nothing but a sadist who delights in torture and death.  If the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not necessary (and it is not necessary if Jesus is a way to God), then they are abominations and should be soundly discounted.

It would be much simpler (and correct) to say that all Truth finds its source in Jesus (the Way, the Truth, and the Life) and no one comes to the Father but by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.  I believe that those who are sincere in their search for the truth will find it in Jesus Christ - whether this side of death or not is not important for me.  I believe that when a person who is sincere in searching for the Truth will, when (s)he sees Jesus say:  “I know you.  I’ve been searching for you and now I’ve found you!  Please forgive my blindness and make me new and acceptable to God.”

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

[23] Posted by Phil Snyder on 11-01-2006 at 01:58 PM • top

To put it simply,WG,not only were many blinded by an agenda/idol,they gave leadership to a woman whose beliefs would have been laughed out of the early Church.

[24] Posted by paddy on 11-01-2006 at 01:58 PM • top

Like it or not, she is right where most Episcopal Seminary professors and many of our Bishops and Priests are on this issue and have been for a while.  I have seen evidence of this “all roads lead to heaven” philosophy in classrooms, Diocisian addresses and even Cursillo talks. She differs from others only in that she is honest and candid enough to say it in language that can be understood. I applaud that. She should not be vilified. She did not cause TEC’s lack of faithfulness, she simply represents it. Unlike some on the orthodox side, I doubt she knows better. It is far worse for those that know better, but because of provincial concerns can’t muster the courage to do what needs to be done.
Shame on all of us for letting SS blessings, etc. become the presenting issue for a split.  This should have been the theology that split the church years ago. But we didnt seem to care, as long as the apostacy was wrapped in language that made it difficult to decipher and we kept to our same routines.
Even now, there are some who argue that you can remain yoked to a denomination that substitutes her comments for the Truth.

[25] Posted by Going Home on 11-01-2006 at 02:01 PM • top

Lord have mercy!

[26] Posted by rreed on 11-01-2006 at 02:04 PM • top

Guys,

Everyone is just “throwing stones.” I agree that this is a serious concern.  As a member of a sister church, I’m saddened and grieved by these comments. But, God is sovereign. It’s no accident that this woman is the PB.

Let some leaders in TEC who are concerned go to her as brothers and sisters in Christ, in a caring and respectful way, and see if this issue concerning our Lord cannot be resolved together. She seemed hesitant to me in her answer concerning Jesus as a vehicle to the divine. I would not just push her away, and give up on the discussion.

[27] Posted by Grace17033 on 11-01-2006 at 02:07 PM • top

Timothy, excellent and interesting point:

She did not cause TEC’s lack of faithfulness, she simply represents it. 

I had not thought of her being the representation or personification as it were of the false doctrine which our seminaries and ECUSA as an institution has embraced.

On another blog I read, someone raised the question and expressed dismay re: how she could get through all the levels from parish discernment process to PB election without anyone being concerned that she’s not a Christian.

I had been thinking the same thing this morning… it leads me to believe that there are larger forces at work here.

I could go the “vast reappraiser conspiracy theory” route and say that she was singled out and chosen for this job years ago by some folks who had the power to get her through the process. (There seems to be some evidence for this given that she was told in 2003 she would not be accepted to serve on the PB nominating committee because then she couldn’t be a candidate—this when she’d only been a bishop for 3 years—and remember she never was a senior rector, only an assistant before becoming bishop.)

But leaving vast conspiracies aside, I find myself thinking of some of the Scriptureal passages about the Godless rulers the Lord allowed to rise to power in order to accomplish His purposes and His judgment.

We need the Lord’s mercy, as does Katharine. May the Lord raise up those who will boldly proclaim Jesus and the truth of His Gospel among us in these days of Godlessness and judgment.

[28] Posted by Karen B. on 11-01-2006 at 02:17 PM • top

Boy oh boy! This just keeps getting worser and worser. We may as well have elected Jack Spong as PB. This really really begs the question: What is it about a supposedly Christian denomination like TEC/ECUSA that it attracts so many non-Christians?

Combine this with Frank and Kates Excellent Adventure in London, the Beers letter, and this interview and you have to wonder: What the hell could possibly be next?
This is really disgusting.

the snarkster

[29] Posted by the snarkster on 11-01-2006 at 02:52 PM • top

Grace—No one is “thowing stones”.  Jesus tells us to have mercy, Jesus tells us to forgive, but Jesus never tells us to put on rose-colored glasses every time we see a sinner.  Schori has denied the Lord.  Period.  Yes,  her fellow bishops should try to correct her, and yes, if she truly repents of this blasphemy, we should welcome her back with love and open arms.  But we betray Our Lord if we mince words over what she has done.  She is not like the woman taken in adultery; she is like the money-changers in the
Temple.  Remember how Jesus dealt with them!

[30] Posted by In Newark on 11-01-2006 at 02:58 PM • top

The snarkster’s post reminds me—this is not just about Schori, and her relation with God,  it is also about the thousands of souls who are in her charge, and who, like sheep, follow where their
“shepherd” leads them.  If you doubt it, come to Newark, and see the devastation her mentor wrought in his diocese!

[31] Posted by In Newark on 11-01-2006 at 03:02 PM • top

Re: “I could go the “vast reappraiser conspiracy theory” route and say that she was singled out and chosen for this job years ago by some folks who had the power to get her through the process.”

Oh, Karen B.

You have clearly not been reading enough reappraiser blogs.

No, no, no, no . . .

This is evidence of the “vast right-wing global IRD fundamentalist Episcopalian” conspiracy.

Only a vastly funded conspiracy along those lines could possibly have found Bishop Schori, manipulated her through the process, and had her arrive at the GC 2006 as a presiding bishop candidate.  Then you have to actually get her elected.  And all of that with the fore-knowledge that she would be a priceless public demonstration of what the vast right-wing global IRD fundamentalist Episcopalians out there have been saying all along . . .

; >)

[32] Posted by Sarah on 11-01-2006 at 03:03 PM • top

Grace, thanks for your comment.  I believe that 90% of clergy (and all Bishops) in ECUSA know exactly what is going on.  Five percent are orthodox.  The other 5% need to resign for not knowing exactly what is going on.

[33] Posted by Lee Parker on 11-01-2006 at 03:32 PM • top

Sarah, you mean?  [hushed silence; now cue The Godfather theme]  It was Barzini all along?
—Cousin Vinnie

[34] Posted by Cousin Vinnie on 11-01-2006 at 03:51 PM • top

Just for the record, it was interesting to go to Wikipedia and read their listings about the Unitarians.  KJS’ theology really does seem to be a perfect fit.  Who knew an NPR reporter could be so sharp when it comes to theology?  Maybe we could nominate Robin Young for bishop?  She clearly gets some things that Schori does not seem to.  (That is really not meant to be sarcastic in any way.  It was just quite stunning to hear an NPR reporter preaching Scripture to a bishop… I’m still getting over it!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

Both Unitarianism and Universalism trace their roots to Christian Protestantism. Many UUs appreciate and value aspects of Christian and Jewish spirituality, but the extent to which the elements of any particular faith tradition are incorporated into one’s personal spiritual practices is a matter of personal choice in keeping with UU’s creedless, non-dogmatic approach to spirituality and faith development.

Unitarian Universalism is a faith with no creedal requirements imposed on its members. It values religious pluralism and respects diverse traditions within the movement and often within the same congregration. Many see it as a syncretic religion, as personal beliefs and religious services draw from more than one faith tradition. Even when one faith tradition is primary within a particular setting, Unitarian Universalists are unlikely to assert that theirs is the “only” or even the “best” way possible to discern meaning or theological truths.

Many Unitarian Universalists consider themselves humanists, while others hold to Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, natural theist, atheist, agnostic, pantheist, or other beliefs. Some choose to attach no particular theological label to their own idiosyncratic combination of beliefs. This diversity of views is usually considered a strength by those in the Unitarian Universalist movement, since the emphasis is on the common search for meaning among its members rather than adherence to any particular doctrine.

[...]

Although lacking an official creed or dogma, Unitarian Universalist congregations typically respect the Principles and Purposes of the Unitarian Universalist Association. As with most actions in Unitarian Universalism, these were created in committee, and affirmed democratically by a vote of member congregations, proportional to their membership, taken at an annual General Assembly (a meeting of delegates from member congregations). The full Principles, Purposes and Sources can be found in the article on the Unitarian Universalist Association. The Principles are as follows.

  1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person
  2. Justice, equity and compassion in human relations
  3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations
  4. A free and responsible search for truth and meaning
  5. The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large
  6. The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all
  7. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Truly ECUSA in very many respects (or at least in many dioceses and seminaries) has become a Unitarian sect with bishops and great vestments.

[35] Posted by Karen B. on 11-01-2006 at 04:02 PM • top

This story is beginning to get out there.  I don’t see the AP interview mentioned available anywhere yet.  Keep your eyes open…

[via AAC blog]
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/49727.aspx

[36] Posted by Karen B. on 11-01-2006 at 04:19 PM • top

FWIW, I’ve just posted the content of the Beers Communication over at http://apostolicity.blogspot.com.

[37] Posted by Fr. Christopher Cantrell+ on 11-01-2006 at 04:57 PM • top

May the Lord raise up those who will boldly proclaim Jesus and the truth of His Gospel among us in these days of Godlessness and judgment.

Karen, you haven’t heard John Howard’s interview with +Rowan yet, have you?  Sit down, grab your chair and listen for <20 mins (if you can).  It ‘rocked me back on my heels’ as the interview ended.
This is endemic in the Anglican Church, apparently.
Chip

[38] Posted by Fr. Chip, SF on 11-01-2006 at 05:08 PM • top

Oh Chip, too too funny.  I JUST replied to your similar comment over on T19, then came over hear and saw your comment to me!

Here’s my T19 comment:
http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=15975#comment-1203739

I’m still having trouble listening to the BBC interview links.  I can get the sound for 3-4 minutes and a time, and then it cuts out.  Very odd.  So I’ve only been able to get bits and pieces of different parts of Rowan’s interview.  I want to listen to the whole 54 minute version before commenting much further, but keep getting thwarted.

[39] Posted by Karen B. on 11-01-2006 at 05:15 PM • top

Is it just my warped senses, or do the UU principles sound a lot like the UN’s MDG’s?  I wondered where they got that material that has been all of=ver the HOBD listserv since the GC.

[40] Posted by Fr. Chip, SF on 11-01-2006 at 05:21 PM • top

This interview just makes me sad.

When I left Unitarian Universalism/Atheism for Christianity, I came to an Episcopal Church with a godly, orthodox rector.

Jesus literally saved me.  When I think of what I left to follow Christ: the despair, the nihilism, the constant soaking in my sins (because there was no sin, to my mind), I shudder to think of where KJS is leading people.  There is no hope at the end of that path.

Now that orthodox rector has left for the AMiA, as have I.  But I grieve for KJS, and the people she is going to shepherd over a cliff.

[41] Posted by DietofWorms on 11-01-2006 at 05:57 PM • top

I may be reading too much into this. But to me Schori is preaching salvation by works. I have no doubt that Christ’s grace can save even non Christians. Especially those who are ignorant of the faith. I believe this grace is similar to the grace given the righteous before the incarnation.

But this grace is not granted because of our cultural experience of God and our strivings towards the divine. Rather it is granted because God has written on our hearts the desire to know and love Him. This is true even amongst those who have not had the happy truth of knowing Christ as savior. Those persons who lives are evident of this are not outside the grace of God.

But it must be remembered that their acts of charity, hope and faith towards each other are only possible because of what God has already granted them. It must also be remembered that the Church must never cease to bring the Good News to all mankind. For the only sure promise of Salvation is faith in Christ given to us by His grace.

No Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Agnostic or Christian is saved because of his own strivings or efforts. Salvation is through the Grace of Christ alone. That is what Schori seems to have forgotten in her theology

[42] Posted by Paula Loughlin on 11-01-2006 at 06:14 PM • top

Great response Paula.  Hear hear!  You manage to say in MANY MANY fewer words the same points I was trying to articulate in a post I wrote on Lent & Beyond in May, in response to doubts raised by an ECUSA missionary in Sudan, about whether / how a Christian should witness to Muslims:

http://lent.classicalanglican.net/?p=2245

Here are some excerpts of my post:

I too however have wrestled with some of the same questions Lauren Stanley asks. I hope that C.S. Lewis got it right in his “The Last Battle” in the Narnia series and his portrayal of Emeth and Aslan’s love for him — that God knows the hearts of those who are His, and that the Lord will save those who are truly seeking Him. I have grown to love the story of Cornelius in Acts, remembering to what lengths God goes to get the truth to those who are righteous and God-fearing. Because I trust in His goodness, I believe God will do what it takes to bring such people to faith. 

[...] God has told us are that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. And, that there is no other name by which we may be saved. And that if we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead that we will be saved. (these are paraphrases of John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Romans 10:9 for those who might want to look them up).

So, God has given us a clear way to be saved. We who have this message MUST proclaim it. One of the other things God has told us in Christ is to GO and make disciples of all nations…

God in His mercy may have some way of saving those who have never heard of Christ. Or of those who have loved Him without knowing it is truly HIM they love, or without being able to fully articulate an evangelical Christian understanding of conversion. That IS God’s business. But He has given us a clear message and a clear commission. When things start to get fuzzy for me, I hold on to those truths.  [...]

There are good things in Islam and Judaism. And there is some truth there too, and love. Many of my muslim neighbors here put me to shame by their love and hospitality and care for those in need, their personal sacrifice to help others. But we have been told that ALL the FULLNESS of God is in Christ. That in Him we can have abundant life and fullness of joy. Don’t let your students settle for some partial truth that may not save them when they can have the real thing. That’s why you’re there.

In Alpha groups I’ve led during periods in the States I used to get asked this question regularly. “How can you tell all your muslim friends that they are going to Hell?” My response is, “Generally, I don’t tell them that. Because it is for God to judge people, not me. He knows their hearts. I don’t.” What I DO tell my muslim friends is of God’s salvation through Christ. I tell them of how He is the answer to the problem of sin, and yes MY sin. I share my own testimony of His work in my life. I proclaim that in Christ, in the message of the Gospel there is atonement, forgiveness, grace, and the transforming work of the Holy Spirit to make us like Christ — power to save us and bring us to life when we were powerless and dead in our sins, that for those who believe in Christ there is the promise of Eternal Life.

This IS good news for my friends. These are truths and realities they have not known in Islam. Many WANT to embrace Christ because of what they hear of Him. The problem comes in counting the cost… as it does for ALL of us, I believe, though the cost may look different in different contexts.

Christianity is unique in two things as I see it: Dealing with the power of sin in our lives and offering the assurance of eternal life. That’s what I proclaim. And moreso I proclaim the mercy I have received in Christ, the wonder of having been brought from darkness into light. I proclaim “Christ’s excellencies”. That’s what really matters:

1 Pet 2:9-10 (NIV)
But you are a chosen people… that you may declare the praises [or “proclaim the excellencies” (NASB)] of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Proclaim what Christ has done in your life. Proclaim who the Bible teaches He is, and all He promises to those who believe in Him.

[43] Posted by Karen B. on 11-01-2006 at 06:40 PM • top

Karen B.
Thank you.  It is your work and the love of Christ that is so evident in your work that brings the Gospel to so many.  The Gospel is not just pages in an ancient religious story.  It is alive and necessary to all of us.  It is a written Eucharist. 

What we do is our answer to that great question of Jesus’  ” Who Do You Say That I Am”.  When those who do not know Christ hear the answer in our love and charity and joy of service they will be more likely to say
” Lord I Am Not Worthy, But Only Say The Word And I Shall Be Healed”

[44] Posted by Paula Loughlin on 11-01-2006 at 06:53 PM • top

Ever since Vicky Gene was elected, I’ve been saying he should go to the UU church.  I’m sure they’d let him be a bishop in the “anything goes” church of “what’s happening now”.  He could wear all the dresses he wanted to and no one would care!
DE

[45] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 11-01-2006 at 07:27 PM • top

The Antichrist has the following ministry in the world: His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress, abolish the daily sacrifice and then set up the abomination that causes desolation.  With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW THEIR GOD WILL FIRMLY RESIST HIM (DANIEL 11:31-32).
Your role and mine at this time is to position ourselves strategically to resist the antichrist in the leadership of the Church.

[46] Posted by Yinka on 11-01-2006 at 07:47 PM • top

“... human communities have always searched for relationship that which is beyond them.. with the ultimate.. with the divine. For Christians, we say that our route to God is through Jesus. Uhh.. uh..that doesn’t mean that a Hindu.. uh.. doesn’t experience God except through Jesus. It-it-it says that Hindus and people of other faith traditions approach God through their.. own cultural contexts; they relate to God, they experience God in human relationships, as well as ones that transcend human relationships; and Christians would say those are our experiences of Jesus; of God through the experience of Jesus.”
Presiding Bishop Elect Katarine Jefferts Schori
Thanks be to God

[47] Posted by Leonardo Ricardo on 11-01-2006 at 07:49 PM • top

Presiding Bishop Elect Katharine Jefferts Schori

Thanks be to God

[48] Posted by Leonardo Ricardo on 11-01-2006 at 07:53 PM • top

I wish for more of Karen B’s spirit in deparate NH Episopalian’s dismissive words about “Vicky Gene” and whatever dresses he wishes to wear.  Sometimes it is difficult to find the spirit of Jesus Christ in these postings.

[49] Posted by nashvilleepiscopalian on 11-01-2006 at 07:56 PM • top

God, give me strength!!

[50] Posted by Cennydd on 11-01-2006 at 07:59 PM • top

We just listened to the full interview of ++Williams.  We were bothered by the ABC not being able to say that he “knows” that God exists.  At the end of the interview starting at about 51:00, he clearly states that the Christian path is clearly not the only way to God.  That there are others.  Even as he quotes that Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by me….he still leaves the door wide open.  Each of us NEEDS to hear that interview. We really feel that he is, if not close to it, a Unitarian/Universalist.  Where is the difference between Him and Schori?  While there were a couple good comments, none truly pointed to Christ.  And not once during a protracted discussion of free will did he mention that God wants us to choose to love Him or that satan is out there.  God is left holding the bag for all the bad things that happen.

Karen B. - we really thought, based on your comments, that we were in for good things. 

We really are going to be rethinking this Anglican Communion thing and our membership therein.

[51] Posted by The Lakeland Two on 11-01-2006 at 08:05 PM • top

I am amazed at the immature childishness of so many of these comments.  It’s time some of you little boys grew up!  Your attitudes toward those who think differently from you are hardly Christian and certainly not in accord with Matthew 5:43-45 quoted below.  Your attitudes toward women are appalling.  Remember, guys, it was a woman who bore you, a woman who birthed you, a woman who nursed you, a woman who raised you, wiped your nose and the other end when it needed it, and generally made sure you got somewhere close to adulthood.  Women were literally saints to you throughout your life, yet you cannot see the face of Christ in the face of a woman??  Sad…very sad indeed.

Bruce Garner, Atlanta

[52] Posted by Bruce Garner on 11-01-2006 at 08:08 PM • top

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.  Mark 9:42

We certainly need to keep Ms. Schori in prayer as it is clear that she needs to come to know Jesus.  How tragic that she is leading sheep, precious souls, away from the Shepherd.

[53] Posted by caroln on 11-01-2006 at 08:12 PM • top

Bruce, my mother is a Christian woman—not a Unitarian/Universalist.  I left the Episcopal Church rather than be under the “leadership” of someone who prefers to embrace all faiths other than Christianity.  Good luck under Presiding Bishop Jezabel—I cannot acknowledge her as a member of the ordained clergy or as a Christian.  But then, the Episcopal Church no longer believes in Scripture, so the Matthew 5:43-45 admonition is hollow indeed. I will pray—that anyone with ANY sense of faith remaining leaves TEC as quickly as their feet will carry them.  Run from Satan…not TO him!

[54] Posted by Puritan Souls on 11-01-2006 at 08:19 PM • top

Bruce,

What does her being a woman have to do with her heretical views?
She is being condemned for her stated views, not her gender.

[55] Posted by Harry Edmon on 11-01-2006 at 08:19 PM • top

I was “there” many, many years ago in my college days.  New Age is not New (read pagan).  I have, through the Grace of God and of my Saviour, Jesus Christ, come to realize that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  May God have mercy.  You have to stand for something (Jesus) or you will fall for anything (the world the flesh and the devil).
May God have mercy on our souls.  Please pray for her conversion, as others have prayed for mine.  I am so blessed to be from the Diocese of South Carolina, and to be nutured in Scripture.  PS I am a “cradle Episcopalian!”

[56] Posted by mspk on 11-01-2006 at 08:39 PM • top

Lakeland Two, please remember I hadn’t been able to hear the whole Rowan interview when I commented.  I’ve still now only been able to get through about 23 minutes of the long version given a very poor internet connection here this week.

What you describe at minute 51 sounds very troubling indeed.  I hope to finish listening tomorrow.  I still think that there is much to commend parts of Rowan’s interview.  His asking about Humphrey’s prior understanding of God and how he came to disbelieve was touching and struck me as being an excellent evangelistic method. 

The one thing that still distinguishes the ++Rowan interview in my mind from the +Schori one is that I have never seen an interview or sermon from +Schori in what I have been able to find and read online in the past 6 months or so that expresses orthodox Christology.

++Rowan has very clearly articulated a personal faith in Christ, and an orthodox Christology many times, especially this awesome sermon of his from the Global South meetings in Egypt in October 2005:
http://www.globalsouthanglican.org/index.php/weblog/printing/rowan_williams_full_talk_given_at_the_3rd_encounter/

That makes a huge difference in my mind.  I keep asking people to point me to ANYTHING that can show +Schori has an orthodox Christology.  But noone yet has produced anything.

[57] Posted by Karen B. on 11-01-2006 at 08:48 PM • top

Dear Lakeland Two - Please give us the “link” or web address for the Archbishop of Canterbury’s interview to which you refer in your comment above. I would like to hear how Rowan Williams quotes Scripture to the effect that “Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life and the Only Way to the Father” and then denies the Truth of the Statement. There must be some “bookish” explanation for the contradiction that is contained in the Definition of “is” or the Definition of “Father” . If not, and he is found to be in agreement with Presiding Bishop Elect Scori on the subject , Church is out.

[58] Posted by stancase on 11-01-2006 at 09:04 PM • top

Stan, you can find both the shorter (30 min) and longer (54 min) versions linked here

[59] Posted by Karen B. on 11-01-2006 at 09:13 PM • top

I will probably regret posting, as I usually do, but I have been reading postings on both sides of the spectrum and don’t seem to be able to hold my thoughts any longer.  I have come to believe I am one of those who is caught in the middle rather than one who is ultra-liberal.  I have seen comments posted by both sides that ignore the feelings and beliefs of others, including my own.  I am not a literalist, that much I know.  I am simply a believer who has faith that, God, in the person of the vastly complex and Amazing Spirit of the Trinity, has given me the gift of perseverance.  A perseverance that requires that I try to do His will on earth.  I do not think that that requires me to quote the Bible when I find it convenient as a weapon against others.  I shuddered when I read the quote from Mark as applied to Schori.  I think that Mark was of the opinion that pretty much everyone should be drown…

But that is not what this post is about.  Schori mentioned other religions.  I have never talked about my occupation - I am a teacher at a private Muslim school.  I go to the Masjid every day with my 2nd graders.  I talk to them about Allah.  I quiz them about their customs.  I marvel at their ability to fast for an entire month.  It would do me no good to preach about my faith, I can only emulate it.  Only 1/3 of the world’s population is Christain.  And there is the rub.  Can I honestly believe that my students - Jordanian, Sudanese, Palestinain, Syrian, Yemenese - will not go to heaven because they follow the faith of their immigrant parents?  And can I believe that their parents are also condemned?  If you say yes, then I understand why you condemn Schori, if not, then why make her such a heretic for loving humanity? 

Heidi

[60] Posted by Heidi on 11-01-2006 at 09:26 PM • top

Re: “Your attitudes toward women are appalling.  Remember, guys, it was a woman who bore you, a woman who birthed you, a woman who nursed you, a woman who raised you, wiped your nose and the other end when it needed it, and generally made sure you got somewhere close to adulthood.  Women were literally saints to you throughout your life, yet you cannot see the face of Christ in the face of a woman??”

Of course, Bruce is welcome to express his opinions here.  I’m not quite certain that many here will find his opinions of their maturity or attitude all that pressing or interesting.  But it’s always nice to have a former president of Integrity and a member of the organization-that-purports-to-be-in-the-episcopal-majority posting comments here.

But . . . what does Bishop Schori’s sex have to do with her heretical theology? 

Are reappraisers implying that women cannot espouse heresy?

What a terribly patriarchal and callow thing to say!  I am quite certain that women are able to spout heresy with the best of men!  ; > )

Signed,

A Woman

[61] Posted by Sarah on 11-01-2006 at 09:34 PM • top

Sarah,
Perhaps the re-appraisers never heard of the ladies who hung out with Montanus,they claimed to be ‘mouth-pieces of the Paraclete’,talking about ‘new works of the Spirit’,they were pretty good at disrupting the church as well as some given to being ‘prophetic’ today and while they were ascetic and some ‘prophetic’ folk today are antinomian the fruit’s still the same.

[62] Posted by paddy on 11-01-2006 at 09:49 PM • top

“But it’s always nice to have a former president of Integrity and a member of the organization-that-purports-to-be-in-the-episcopal-majority posting comments here.”

Way to do your homework, Sarah. You GO girl! grin

[63] Posted by Kevin Maney+ on 11-01-2006 at 09:52 PM • top

“I find myself thinking of some of the Scriptureal passages about the Godless rulers the Lord allowed to rise to power in order to accomplish His purposes and His judgment.”
Karen, I have the same sense. It is as if God has stripped the mask of deception from the face of the TEC leadership. For years, many of our leaders communicated in a code that largely hid the heresy.  Now, it is clear for all to see and hear.
I disagree with some here as to the merits of remaining in TEC. However, what is increasingly rare is a poster who contends that TEC is, as a denomination, communicating the Gospel, or that internal reform is possible. Clarity has been achieved through the PB’s election.  I see God’s hand in it.

[64] Posted by Going Home on 11-01-2006 at 10:00 PM • top

Hedi that is an excellent post.  No one knows the mind of God and when exactly individuals do or do not accept Christ.  If you reject Christ my humble answer to you is yes.

[65] Posted by Lee Parker on 11-01-2006 at 10:08 PM • top

Heidi;
You wrote “Can I honestly believe that my students - Jordanian, Sudanese, Palestinain, Syrian, Yemenese - will not go to heaven because they follow the faith of their immigrant parents?  And can I believe that their parents are also condemned?  If you say yes, then I understand why you condemn Schori, if not, then why make her such a heretic for loving humanity?” 
I do not condemn Schori for loving humanity.  I condemn Schori because, time after time, she does not give give a Scripturally-based answer to questions regarding a core tenet of Christianity.  Is belief in Jesus necessary to go to Heaven?  As a Christian, the answer is an unwaivering “YES.”  This is made CLEAR in John 3:16, John 4:14, John 5:24, John 6:35, and John 6:47.  And that is just for starters—not counting the other 3 Gospels, Paul’s letters, etc.  It doesn’t include any of the Prophetic books of the Old Testament.  As Christians, we do not wish for ANYONE to be condemned.  But, if they do not accept Christ…they reject Him at their own peril.  A Christian does not accept any means of salvation other than through faith in Christ.  And we ALL pray that a time will come when the children that you teach open their hearts to Our Lord.  But be encouraged by the knowledge that the little souls that you minister to, in your way, are every bit as precious to God as any other…and that YOU might, through your love, be the one through whom Our Lord works.  May God strengthen you to carry His word.

[66] Posted by Puritan Souls on 11-01-2006 at 10:19 PM • top

Hedi because your post really touched my heart how about this scenario.  I am Muslim.  I teach at a Christian school.  I marvel at children who speak three different languages and love their lord Jesus Christ.  They do not want to kill me.  They want me to experience the love, kindness and grace of Jesus Christ.  More importantly they want me to live with them in eternal salvation.  They live in an extraordinarily compassionate country.

[67] Posted by Lee Parker on 11-01-2006 at 10:23 PM • top

All I ever wanted was a church where I could worship with folks who were repentant for their sins, and remained true to Scripture. Is this too much to ask? I don’t think so. Then I discovered Anglicanism and I knew I was ‘home’. Loved the theology. Loved the liturgy. Then, I was introduced to schism. Didn’t like it much. But, there is a better day on the horizon. Tonight, my little Episcopal parish voted overwhelmingly (85% in favor of) to become the newest parish in the AMIA. Can y’all say ‘Praise God’?

[68] Posted by Doug Atkin on 11-01-2006 at 10:25 PM • top

Doug, PRAISE GOD!  One fewer parish for TEC is one more victory for Christ.  May Our Lord continue to bless you and your church family.

[69] Posted by Puritan Souls on 11-01-2006 at 10:27 PM • top

Heidi,
KJS is a heretic for being a leader in a Christian denomination, who clearly is not a Christian.  Better a millstone be tied around her neck thatn to be leading so many astray.

As to your students and their parents, there is not a person on this earth who could tell you where they will stand on judgment day.  It is certainly not up to any human being to “separate the sheep from the goats” and I am suspicious of anyone who would purport to do so.

[70] Posted by heart on 11-01-2006 at 10:33 PM • top

Puritan Souls, Thank you so much! There will be grieving mixed with rejoicing, but it will all be worth it. Please keep us in your prayers.

[71] Posted by Doug Atkin on 11-01-2006 at 10:36 PM • top

Thank you for this transcript.
“The shepherds of Christ’s flock have a double duty: to
feed the sheep (by teaching the truth) and to protect them from wolves (by warning of error). As Paul put it to
Titus, elders must hold firm the sure word according to
apostolic teaching, so that they would be able both ‘to
give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute
those who contradict it’ (Tit. 1:9).”
KJS appears to be failing on both counts.

[72] Posted by ElaineF. on 11-01-2006 at 10:39 PM • top

Thank You Karen.
I had to download real player to listen to Rowan Williams’  Interview with the BBC. Rowan Williams does not have a habit of speaking plainly. My conclusion from his comments at the end of the interview is that he needs to read John Chapter 3 and John Chapter 14 very carefully again.
His comments are to the effect that Jesus is saying that the only way to have the “Fullest” relationship with the Father is through a relationship with Jesus. He also says that there are many paths to God. Unless he is equating the “Fullest Relationship with God”  with “Eternal Life through a Saving Faith in Jesus Christ” (and I do not believe that he is), he is failing to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ and is placing many in Danger of “Perishing” for lack of Knowledge of the Truth. He speaks of interfaith relations and states that, as a Christian, he has an “argument” that his beliefs are the Truth and favors interfaith discussions so that he can make his argument. I believe that the following concepts need to be included and expressed in his argument if he really “loves” persons of other “faiths”:

John 3:

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Let us Pray for the “Whole State” of Christ’s Church and the World and that all “Christians” will be empowered to Fully Proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[73] Posted by stancase on 11-01-2006 at 10:43 PM • top

Doug, I will…and please keep me in yours.  I know I often, in my posts, come across as angry and/or bitter—that is grief “talking.”  I was an Episcopalian for all of my 45 years, and seeing a formerly great Church destroyed cuts to the core of my heart.  But I agree with you…“it WILL all be worth it.”  You, I, and others have heard Our Lord call to us…and have picked up our cross and followed Him.  Others will hear Him tomorrow…or next week…or later.  And I pray that ALL hear His voice.

[74] Posted by Puritan Souls on 11-01-2006 at 10:46 PM • top

Here is the onlu question that needs to be address first.

Is she a Christian?

[75] Posted by DHR on 11-01-2006 at 10:50 PM • top

Stan, re: relevant prayers—here are two great ones.
http://lent.classicalanglican.net/?p=2688

[76] Posted by Karen B. on 11-01-2006 at 10:51 PM • top

Karen,

AMEN

[77] Posted by stancase on 11-01-2006 at 10:57 PM • top

I used to ask rhetorically (well, I thought it was rhetorical):  If you can’t believe what the Bible seems to say about homosexual sex acts, how can you believe what the Bible seems to say about salvation, or forgiveness of sins?

I wonder if Bishop Schori’s hesitancy in responding to a simple question is because her theology is, in fact, a consistent one. Have you ever tried to explain something that had no meaning to you?  Did you not stumble for words?  Perhaps +Schori sees all Scripture as completely ambigous, devoid of any content ascertainable by humans.  I bet if you asked her about the MDGs, she could speak lucidly for hours, without notes.

[78] Posted by Cousin Vinnie on 11-01-2006 at 11:00 PM • top

Puritan Souls, How could you not sound bitter? Our church has been torn away from us. It hurts terribly. When I got home tonight I cried for what had been and, sadly, can be no more. We will be okay. God holds us in the hollow of His hand and He will not let us fall. Prayers are coming your way.

[79] Posted by Doug Atkin on 11-01-2006 at 11:13 PM • top

Heidi,

Shori is, I think, the product of what the larger liberals have done to God’s Church under the umbrella of TEC. She has embraced what has been feared to be coming about, and as one person with a name and face, she represents all those who have changed TEC over the years. Where people condemn her because she is a woman, I think those same would condemn women as CEOs, judges etc. Where she is condemned for her stance, I think a great deal of it is simply that she is the metaphorical whipping boy (girl).

As to the salvation of your muslim students and parents. Truly, can anyone know? When I say “know”  I mean just that; have absolute knowledge of facts from a friendly chat with God. No one can know.

However, we believe. With conviction. The answer, sadly, is they will not be saved. Neither will the Brahmans, Shintos, Buddists, Wiccans or any other faith/religion you can name. This is why it’s our duty to spread The Word so that more may know and come to God through Jesus.

Now, the muslims believe strongly that they have the right answers and that Christians are condemned. They believe the same about Jews, Buddists, Hindus and so on.

Consider: Suppose on some distant planet God is at work with a sentient being in the same way He is on Earth with humans. Now, whatever those “people” may be, they certainly aren’t humans. They may have Jesus, or He may be yet to come, or perhaps God’s rules and plan for that planet don’t involve Jesus. How are we to know? 

On that planet God uses His Word in a different way, perhaps, and there are those who are saved and those who aren’t. Yet as we know nothing about that planet, and don’t really know that those “people” exist, how can we declare whether they are saved or not, based upon the Word we have received? We can’t. Nevertheless, God will redeem His “people” from that planet.

I’ve had people rant at me for suggesting there are other “people” on other planets. I can only point out (1) there are cherubim and serphim and angels in Heaven, so there’s more to this than simply the Triune God and humans, and (2) nothing, but nothing in the Bible says it isn’t so. The Bible speaks of Earth and humans and God. It doesn’t speak about Mars or Jupiter, so do we deny that those planets exist?

What I’m working around to is this. Whether those muslim chidren are saved not is not our concern. Our concern is to try to reach out to them and show them Jesus’ way. If they refuse, then they certainly fail salvation from Jesus’ prescribed path. Accordingly then, they will not be saved. But can God redeem them if he wants to? Scriptures indicate He won’t, but let’s be fair. He’s God. He can do whatever He wants. It’s not our concern because He’s given us our own marching orders. We march accordingly. Let God worry about others.

Your muslim friends have the same perspective. They would like you to convert. They are certain you will die physically, and then you will die spiritually forever.

Here’s why Shori is a target for spurnning. How do you think your muslim friends would feel if some Ayatollah started telling them they no longer had to fast during Ramadan? That it was unhealthy and they should stop? That praying towards Mecca is silly and pointless because God is in every direction? Furthermore, the Koran isn’t really the Word of God, just one person’s interpretation of God. And twice per year all mosques are required to bring in a minister of a competing faith and let them deliver a sermon.

Do you think your muslim friends would be happy with this? You stated your admiration for those children to keep their faith and fast for a month. Can you not have the same admiration for those who are trying to keep the faith in Christianity?

If this new “christianity” (small c) that has invaded TEC and other denominations is all the rage and desirable, then I say go for it. Do it if that’s what you want. But why hi-jack existing denominations and change them into something they never were, against the will and faith of those who believe a certain way? Why not do this from inside a Unitarian church? Why not make your own tollerant/liberal/open church?

If you think the muslism would be upset to see an Ayatollah go turning the religion on its head, is it so difficult to understand why Christians who place Scripture above all else are upset when it is replaced by majority rule and all hail the insitution?

Yes, we are upset. Tremendously so. The outgoing bishop hasn’t clean hands, but Shori publically embraced it all with firm conviction of “fait accompli.” The usurption of a faithful and scriptural religion is complete. Had all this been done in a new denomiation, say, The Church of One and All, no one in TEC would have minded. Shori, being the bishop elect in something other than TEC, wouldn’t get a second mention.

[80] Posted by Antique on 11-02-2006 at 02:52 AM • top

“We figured out your problem.  You’re the only one here who believes in God.”  These words were spoken to then-Episcopal-seminarian Andy Ferguson in the cafeteria of CDSP.  (Shiflett:  Exodus, pp xi-xiii, Penguin Group).  Coupled with this interview, when one judges the fruits of its ministry, one is left with the conclusion that CDSP teaches its students to disbelieve.  Is it any surprise that our denomination is dying?

[81] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 11-02-2006 at 04:26 AM • top

Thank you to the CaNN news editor for the transcription and Karen B.‘s posting of the article on unitarianism from Wikipedia.  As I say over at DCNY after the info on unitarianism from Wikipedia,

“Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is it a Unitarian Presiding Bishop?”

[82] Posted by Tony on 11-02-2006 at 08:49 AM • top

“Preach the Gospel at all times.  If necessary, use words.”
St. Francis Of Assisi

Yes, my students used to tell me I needed to be Muslim to go to heaven, now they just see me as that quirky women who might have an ‘in’ afterall.  Heidi

[83] Posted by Heidi on 11-02-2006 at 08:47 PM • top

Doug,

We opened our doors as an ACN parish less than a month ago and have been overwhelmed by the sheer joy and sense of freedom it has brought us.  Stand fast my friend.

“Weeping may linger for the night,
  but joy comes in the morning”
                    PS 30:5

[84] Posted by Invicta on 11-02-2006 at 09:23 PM • top

Heidi;
I was in the formation process for the Third Order/Society of St Francis when we decided to leave the Episcopal Church (I was halfway thru my Novitiate).  Your use of the quote by St Francis pretty much nails it.  If you’re not familiar with it, read the story of St Francis’ effort to convert the Sultan during the Crusades.  While his attempt did not succeed, it DID build a special relationship between Franciscans and Muslims that exists to this day.  I mention this because Francis did, indeed, believe that the Sultan needed to accept Christ to be saved.  Salvation is through Christ, not through Mohammed.

[85] Posted by Puritan Souls on 11-02-2006 at 09:33 PM • top

Thank the Lord for those faithful, willing to take the leap of faith.
You will know great joy before the tears have dried on your cheeks. You will be amazed at the great things God will do with you. My prayers include you all every day.

Please be sure to send me your information so you can be added to the Shelter list.  I am willing to list as little as a contact person, phone and email along with the City and State for those new
Churches forming.  If you have chosen a name, have a address and website that’s wonderful, but they can be added later. Also who you affiliate with can be added later too. 
Blessings to you all.
Grannie Kay
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) 
http://www.shelterinthestorm.org

[86] Posted by GrannieKay on 11-02-2006 at 09:44 PM • top

Puritan Souls, do you think it would serve me well, or be more effective, if I ‘preached’ my beliefs, or if I followed them? 

I have 17 years of Catholic education, (RC), and have been taught to wonder - I love that word - wonder.

I cannot take credit for, but can only humble myself that I have a son who is the youngest seminarian in my state.  Throughout it all, he rejoices in being Christian, he rejoices in the Episcopal faith. 

Goodness, I am proud of him, and thanks be to God that he sees the pain on both sides, yet has never said an unkind word against any…He truly rejoices in his faith.

Heidi

[87] Posted by Heidi on 11-02-2006 at 11:13 PM • top

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