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Women Bishops in the CofE - narrowing the broad church

Monday, July 7, 2008 • 5:40 pm

The lie of the broad church is demolished once and for all. I am now outside the church on a matter that is, according to the discussions of the church, still debatable and where people on both sides are understood to hold their position in good conscience. And that is a ridiculous state of affairs. Our “broad church” has become even narrower.  It strikes me that this is in no large part due to an absolute breakdown in trust - I simply do not trust the liberals to play fair. They have demonstrated time and time again that they will not. Now will someone please tell me why Fraser and the rest of them keep crying wolf on the “takeover” of the conservative evangelicals? If even N.T. Wright, great defender of orthodoxy that he claims to be, is on their side who are they worried about?


So it’s happened. The Church of England has voted for the single clause option on women bishops with a code of practice to look after dissenters, but no legal provision. The decision not to have legal provision was taken in order to defend the validity of women bishops - to legislate provision for those who dissent would be, it was argued, to undermine the authority of the women bishops. It must be granted that this makes logical sense, nevertheless it finally puts to rest the oft-repeated liberal lie that we are a broad church with room for everyone. I have to say, I feel like an unwelcome stranger in my own church. I am now, in a way, a criminal and my crime is the outrageously henious act of not moving at all.

Some bishops understood this. The chair of the debate, The bishop of Dover Stephen Venner, had this to say before the final debate on the amended motion (from here):

I have to say that for the first time in my life I feel ashamed. We have talked for hours about wanting to give an honourable place for those who disagreed. We have turned down almost every opportunity for those opposed to flourish. And we still talk the talk of being inclusive and generous. The Rochester report said in many many pages that there were a variety of ways in which scripture and reason could be read with integrity. It argued over and over again that it is possible to be a loyal member of the CofE and [accept] some legal safeguards for those who oppose the ordination of women. It is not just those who are opposed to the ordination of women who find the motion we have at the moment difficult. I do. Where is the CofE about which we have spoken today? Is this CofE to which we have come to in this vote the CofE at its best? I have to say I doubt it. Is this the CofE to which I thought I belonged? I have to say with huge sadness, I doubt it.

And there it is in a nutshell. The talk of being inclusive and generous is just that. Talk. In reality there is no desire to anything like inclusive and generous. And, since we’ve been noting it regularly, do also be aware that the promise made to Synod in the 90’s during the debate on the ordination of women to the priesthood that there would always be legal safeguards for dissenters has been knowingly abandoned. This is beyond a lack of charitable spirit - this is a knowing and deliberate breach of trust.

As always (as it was with the original debate on the ordination of women to the priesthood), it was the more “open” evangelicals who swung the vote. They may be slowly waking up to the enormity of what happened, as the Ugley Vicar notes:

The fact that Tom Wright, the Bishop of Durham then moved [after +Dover’s speech] (unsuccessfully) for an adjournment may make Open Evangelicals at least pause for thought about what has been done.

But it’s done now.

So what situation are we in? Were I back in a parish in England (a situation I wrote about a few weeks ago) I would now be in a tricky situation. Theologically I cannot recognise this innovation. I can acknowledge all the administrative authority that my new female bishop had - she can do all the paperwork that she needs to do and I would happily help her with it. But spiritual authority I could not, in good conscience, recognise. In taking this position I don’t think I am extraordinary, but simply holding to the position that the church has held for almost 2000 years. I’m not picking a fight, but the fight has come to me.

Now, as I take this position my female bishop would be encouraged by the code of conduct to deal with me graciously and I don’t suppose that many of them would do anything else. But here is the rub - if they choose not to abide by the code, if they choose to enforce the rights that the legislation has granted them and which proponents of women’s consecration have fought so hard for, then I would be the one outside the law and she the one inside it. All it takes is one belligerent liberal bishop to force this issue and the code will fall apart. Who is willing to bet that it won’t happen?

And so, as the Ugley Vicar has previously argued, the lie of the broad church is demolished once and for all. I am now outside the church on a matter that is, according to the discussions of the church, still debatable and where people on both sides are understood to hold their position in good conscience. And that is a ridiculous state of affairs. Our “broad church” has become even narrower. It strikes me that this is in no large part due to an absolute breakdown in trust - I simply do not trust the liberals to play fair. They have demonstrated time and time again that they will not.

Now will someone please tell me why Fraser and the rest of them keep crying wolf on the “takeover” of the conservative evangelicals? If even N.T. Wright, great defender of orthodoxy that he claims to be, is on their side who are they worried about?


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Comments:

Well said.  “Inclusive” is just a buzzword, and a rubbish one at that.  This sad day is yet more evidence of how uninclusive the “Inclusive” crowd is.

[1] Posted by Newbie Anglican on 07-07-2008 at 06:09 PM • top

All is not necessarily lost. In fact, I’m really relieved that having rejected the ‘separate dioceses’ option they didn’t go for some ‘soft middle’ position. Check out my immediate response on the Ugley Vicar Blog here: Much Vexation without Representation.

[2] Posted by John Richardson on 07-07-2008 at 06:20 PM • top

John+-
All I can say is that your point of view was taken by the several thousand Anglo Catholic clergy and 20 or 30 Anglo Catholic bishops who remained in TEC after 1979.  The last 2 Anglo Catholic bishops in TEC are slated to be deposed, and few hundred Anglo Catholic clergy are regularly hung out to dry or forced into retirement by their liberal bishops here- to be replaced by women or liberal clerics completely unacceptable to the parish.

[3] Posted by tjmcmahon on 07-07-2008 at 06:52 PM • top

It’s an interesting response you make on your blog, #2.  Your point that the remaining church will be smaller, among other things, made me recognize that today’s results are those of a successful corporate managerial campaign to get stakeholders to agree that a leaner, meaner CoE is desirable. Some of the main players are after all American: 
http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2006/07/03/christina-rees-speaks-for-women-and-actively-gay-bishops/

for example.
But do you mean to suggest that the Queen could in some way overrule today’s result?

It should by now be transparently obvious that the vote was won by a bloc whose intention is to institutionalize gay marriage by making it a rite of their church, at their earliest opportunity.

[4] Posted by TACit on 07-07-2008 at 06:54 PM • top

It’s the fall of the CofE that happened today! So now what will happen to all our Anglco_Catholic brothers and sisters in England and for that matter the WWAC! I can’t imagine that the GS Primates who have already boycotted Lambeth are going to be very happy with this decision after deciding not to leave the AC at GAFCON.

[5] Posted by TLDillon on 07-07-2008 at 07:40 PM • top

David, it’s not about gender but about behavior.  Like Mary, the sister of Martha, sitting at Jesus’ feet in the position reserved for the male disciple or student, or like Mary coming to Jesus and anointing him with the Jar of perfume before He went to the cross (and she was ridiculed by the male disciples for this priestly and what they thought wasteful act until Jesus publicly and firmly admonished them and lifted Mary to position of authority)  - being a woman disciple is not a sin.  We are the priesthood of all believers.  We recognize however that we have different traditions of expressing our faith, we understand that the nature of the priesthood has different biblical expressions - but they are biblical.  In no way do we bless sinful behavior. It not a sin to behave as a woman when one is a woman.  What is in question is the role of women, not that her gender is sinful.

What we are dealing with on the frontlines, and what I believe the timing of this action in England is seeking to deflect, is immoral behavior now being officially blessed by the Church as suddenly holy.  Progressives want to equate the ministry of women with blessing immoral behavior and this is not a secret that the timing of this vote comes just before the Lambeth Conference.  It’s planned that way.  This is a political action, not a theological one and we should respond politically not theologically.  To respond theologically gives the opposition ammunition that the immoral behavior is akin to the suffrage of women - and that is outrageously false.

It’s a trap and it grieves me to see us risk falling into the trap.  This action can be dealt with politically and not by playing into the scenerio set up by those who seek to deflect the current crisis and remake it into another that would split the evangelicals and the traditionalists.  That is what this is about.

We must be on our guard and not be fooled.

bb

[6] Posted by BabyBlue on 07-07-2008 at 07:54 PM • top

thanks for this, BB

David, it’s not about gender but about behavior.  Like Mary, the sister of Martha, sitting at Jesus’ feet in the position reserved for the male disciple or student, or like Mary coming to Jesus and anointing him with the Jar of perfume before He went to the cross (and she was ridiculed by the male disciples for this priestly and what they thought wasteful act until Jesus publicly and firmly admonished them and lifted Mary to position of authority) - being a woman disciple is not a sin.  We are the priesthood of all believers.  We recognize however that we have different traditions of expressing our faith, we understand that the nature of the priesthood has different biblical expressions - but they are biblical.  In no way do we bless sinful behavior. It not a sin to behave as a woman when one is a woman.  What is in question is the role of women, not that her gender is sinful.

I’m not sure why you’re telling me this, having never argued that gender is sinful. I’ve always held the position that this is about role. I’m not aware of anyone arguing otherwise.

[7] Posted by David Ould on 07-07-2008 at 08:07 PM • top

“Extremists,” Fraser says. Christians, I say. What a sad, sorry day for the Anglican Communion and, especially, for the Church of England.

[8] Posted by oscewicee on 07-07-2008 at 08:09 PM • top

Ah - but that’s the ruse of the progressives.  They seek to equalify what they call “full inclusion” with the suffrage of women.  But that is a misnomer and that’s why we should be on our guard when we engage in the fascinating discussion of the ministry of women.  Civil rights has to do with the equality of those of different races, suffrage has to do with the equality of women - but full inclusion has to do with blessing and making holy what the scriptures are clear to teach is sinful.  Yet, the progressives seek to include in their banner of “full inclusion” civil rights and suffrage and that is a trick.

The strategy is discussed in detail in a landmark book of the early 90s entitled “After the Ball.”  The activists sought to change the image of homosexuals away from the flamboyant parades and in-your-face “Act Up” confrontations and make it all more gentile, more bourgeois, more acceptable - like watering the lawn, no big deal.  The Episcopal Church became a valuable target because it offered everything in one stained glass package.

I think the theological differences are quite clear among biblically minded orthodox Christians.  We are discussing theology and polity.  But to the Western progressives (in Canada, the USA, and yes Bishop Wright, in the Church of England) the trick is blur the lines so much that the coalition of the evangelicals who support the priesthood of all believers position (for a shorthand - this is just shorthand) and the traditionalists who hold to a catholic (small c) view of Holy Orders (again a shorthand) split amongst themselves.

It appears GAFCON recognized this ruse and navigated around it.  As important at these questions are, and they are, they pale in comparison to what we are facing on a global scale with the infusing in our Christian faith with Western innovations regarding sexual behavior.  We should not fall for the ruse - especially one like this that is so obviously timed to draw attention away from the presenting issue as Lambeth fast approaches.

bb

[9] Posted by BabyBlue on 07-07-2008 at 08:25 PM • top
[10] Posted by DaveW on 07-07-2008 at 08:27 PM • top

David Ould+
‘...narrowing the broad church’!!
Something of a long whine about the C of E no longer being ‘inclusive and generous’. Where, may I ask (as one who has searched) is the broad church within the Jensens’ fiefdom? In all my travels about the Anglican Communion, I have yet to come across a ‘narrower’ diocese than that in which you have pursued your theological education and in which to have chosen to serve as an Anglican minister.
In the light of FOCA, surely Sydney could set an example by giving St James’s Church, and the other one or two non-Calvinist remnants, a little more liturgical latitude?

Gweilo

[11] Posted by gweilo on 07-07-2008 at 08:40 PM • top

David:

Totally agree with you.  Part of the reason TEC sank is because of their ‘woman bishop’ - tanked Nevada and then got to tank the entire denomination. 


Babyblue
has summed this position up so well I think any other remark to be redundant.

[12] Posted by Eclipse on 07-07-2008 at 08:50 PM • top

Check out the smile on Christina Rees’s face here. No wonder - she’s just got the whole cake and knows it! As I warned in an earlier article, though, “a counter-Scriptural, egalitarian feminist agenda [has now] gained the centre-ground. Those Evangelical supporters (and, perhaps, opponents) of women’s ordination who endorse or accept the new arrangements will find themselves faced with a triumphant Liberalism whose next aim will undoubtedly be the inclusion of same-sex relationships and the modification of our concept of God (the latter is clearly stated on the WATCH website [proprietor, Christina Rees]).”

We now face a defining moment. Will the Traditionalist/Conservative wing fold or stand? I’m happy to stand. On this one I cannot stand alone, however, as it is about episcopacy, and I’m not an episcopos in Anglican terms. So I have to see who will step up to the plate for me.

As to the Queen, strange but true, in England she is the only person who legally has the power to resolve theological issues in the Church of England by fiat. This was established by the Act of Supremacy in the reign of Elizabeth I, and as far as I am aware remains the case.

[13] Posted by John Richardson on 07-07-2008 at 08:57 PM • top

#13 John Richardson,
Where are these “absolute respects & adequate provisions”? I didn’t read them nor hear of them do you know what they might be? The smile on her face seems deceitful on the matters of respect and provisions, IMHO!

She said there was ‘absolute respect’ for opponents and there would be ‘adequate provisions’ for them.

The full motion as amended is reproduced below, with the precise voting figures.

This is the final motion approved by Synod:

      ‘That this Synod:

(a)        affirm that the wish of its majority is for women to be admitted to the episcopate;

(b)        affirm its view that special arrangements be available, within the existing structures of the Church of England, for those who as a matter of theological conviction will not be able to receive the ministry of women as bishops or priests;

(c)        affirm that these should be contained in a statutory national code of practice to which all concerned would be required to have regard; and

(d)        instruct the legislative drafting group, in consultation with the House of Bishops, to complete its work accordingly, including preparing the first draft of a code of practice, so that the Business Committee can include first consideration of the draft legislation in the agenda for the February 2009 group of sessions.’

[14] Posted by TLDillon on 07-07-2008 at 09:07 PM • top

Hello gweilo.
I’m sure I must be missing something somewhere. I am good friends with a dear old saint at St. James King St and though she has a limited amount of good things to say about +Jensen, she has never once complained that they were restricted in their liturgy because of it. I know for a fact that one bishop and his wife rather enjoy going there.

Perhaps you know better. If so, do tell.

[15] Posted by David Ould on 07-07-2008 at 09:08 PM • top

We now face a defining moment. Will the Traditionalist/Conservative wing fold or stand? I’m happy to stand. On this one I cannot stand alone, however, as it is about episcopacy, and I’m not an episcopos in Anglican terms. So I have to see who will step up to the plate for me.

What! The opposition has swept past you and is on to other issues. For catholic Anglicans - once church order has disintegrated - it’s not that you should fight for your church - the church catholic no longer exists.

Show me one place in the Anglican world where the progressives have made and kept to an accommodation with catholic Anglicans. They haven’t. They won’t.

[16] Posted by driver8 on 07-07-2008 at 09:19 PM • top

So, now we come to the authority of Bishops, to pass on that which no other can.
1.  To ordain Priests
2.  To confirm the faithful
3.  To consecrate worship spaces
4.  To receive and deliver apostolic succession to another.

And are we to understand that, from this day forward, by vote of the Bishops, Clergy, and laity, that WE have given this power and authority to the fairer sex?  WE have overcome 2,000 years of God-breathed tradition and decided for ourselves that it was in error?

There we go again, creating God in our own image and likeness (with apologies to the late George Carlin).

What foolishness….

KTF!...mrb

[17] Posted by Mike Bertaut on 07-07-2008 at 09:28 PM • top

#6 BabyBlue: “It not a sin to behave as a woman when one is a woman. ” As I commented on your own blog… “but it is a sin to behave as a homosexual when one is a homosexual,” right? Ah. Consistency. Gotta love it. Thanks. I can sleep better now.
</sarcasm>

[18] Posted by PadreWayne on 07-07-2008 at 09:35 PM • top

Ah Padre - a drive-by from you?? Tsk-tsk. Very unbecoming. Perhaps if you could definitively equate homosexuality with being a woman you would have a gibe worthy of the target. But certainly not this.

[19] Posted by masternav on 07-07-2008 at 09:38 PM • top

masternav, I’ll return just for you! No, I do not equate homosexuality with gender. They are obviously not the same thing. I believe homosexuality to be inbred (i.e., naturally caused, not learned), though, as gender is—and if one is going to project gender behavior into the argument (i.e., because one is of a certain gender), then one should be prepared to consider homosexual behavior also (i.e., because one is of a certain orientation).

[20] Posted by PadreWayne on 07-07-2008 at 09:42 PM • top

#19 Masternav I have to agree.  PadreWayne is definitely off his game tonight.  I’ve always heard success can test one’s mettle as much as the most grevious failure smile

It’s been a crushing day for many.  Funny, of all the pursuits of man, the last one I ever thought I’d get run over in just for holding the line was Church.  Guess I’m a bit too Catholic for my own good.

KTF!...mrb

[21] Posted by Mike Bertaut on 07-07-2008 at 09:42 PM • top

Dear Padre, my profound gratitude for your return and comment! Believing and proving are two separate issues. In fact the argument that homosexuality can be inbred or naturally-caused is not specious to my mind, nor is “natural-cause” which can be used to include socio-behavioral, familial, or even chemo-hormonal influences. The argument for natural-cause must fail however because in the same case, fall predelictions that enjoy the very same “natural-cause” but are viewed as negatives: anti-social or self-destructive (alcoholism, pederasty, obesity, amorality, etc.). These share the same “natural-cause” for positives: pro-social or self-supporting (artistic talents, altruism, thriftiness, morality, fidelity). Therefore the argument FOR homosexuality as a part of natural-state is only valid if the natural-state is in fact desireable. The Bible however is one long tale of woe surrounding the predations and effects of the natural-state - separation from God, conflict amongst ourselves - indeed the whole of history demonstrates that the natural-state is out of harmony with God, is the reason for God’s intervention in human history via Jesus, and is the reason that we have never in the thousands of years of recorded history been able to live with one another peacably and respectfully - our very natural-state precludes that.

[22] Posted by masternav on 07-07-2008 at 10:03 PM • top

PadreWayne - and it is not a sin to act as an alcoholic when one is an alcoholic?  Or as a pedophile when one is a pedophile?  Or a thief when one is a thief?  Sorry, not one of your better efforts.

[23] Posted by Harry Edmon on 07-07-2008 at 10:09 PM • top

Perhaps - just perhaps, God is calling to account our human-built institutions and shaking the ground. That which is well-founded will remain standing, but that which has a shaky foundation will fall. I cannot rejoice with PadreWayne (for example) that this is a win for the revisionists, because they seem incapable of seeing the cumulative effect of these developments. The decline of the Episcopal church was not arrested and reversed by WO, nor by the consecration of VGR, nor by the open declaration of SSBs in California following the state Supreme Court decision. In fact it seems to be accelerating. The same thing is happening in CoE. Where is it NOT happening in Anglican Christendom? Ahhh, but wait. Before we go there the inevitable protest must be raised “they hate gays and disrespect women there”. This is used routinely to disallow the faith of tens of millions of Christians in Africa, in the face of perhaps thousands or tens of thousands here. The subtext is always that they are more primitive, less educated, cruder, ruder, less tolerant, more reactive and therefore not as important, meaningful, nuanced, intelligent and spiritual as we. The sublime arrogance of the entirely too wealthy, too idle and too self-involved.

If orthodoxy is wrong in its stand about homosexuality and other issues, then it will fall as God shakes our foundations to see how strong they are - but mortal souls are not at stake there(if the progressives are true). If however the revisionist causes are wrong and in shaking the foundations God causes the progressives to fall, mortal souls are at stake because conflated with the homosexuality issue are the true nature of God, the salvic role of Jesus Christ in history and the nature of sin, condemnation, restoration and rebirth. And no amount of last minute shoring-up of crumbling sand will prevent the collapse. The result however for those who lead among the progressives will be dire in eternity. Which is why the revisionist approach must assume that all will go to heaven (except maybe Hitler?) and that there are no eternal consequences.

[24] Posted by masternav on 07-07-2008 at 10:39 PM • top

David Ould: [15]
For a confused second or two, I found myself imagining the hard-con curate of Neutral Bay dropping by St James’s to talk to a stained glass window…but, no, she must be a charming OAP who has long forgotten what a chasuble looks like. She may remember the outstanding and beloved assistant ******, the Revd Susan Pain, who was forbidden to wear a priest’s stole while at St James’. And as for the bishop and his wife…they must feel blessed, together with the rest of the St James’ congregations, to belong to such a ‘haven’...doubly blessed when they consider the alternatives.
However, your reply only addressed a tangential issue. If I may re-focus on the Anglican Communion’s most celebrated ‘monochrome’ diocese: the Sydney Morning Herald carried the following extracts from an article under the bye-line of Connie Levett, on 4 July 2008: 

“Some in the Sydney diocese say, for the Jensens, standing firm means snuffing out voices of dissent. A letter to the Herald this week spoke of “the attempted conversion of the diocese from Anglicanism to Jensenism”.
Alan Little, a warden at St Mark’s Church, South Hurstville, says: “The real issue is not the ordination of one gay bishop; what lies behind is the narrow fundamentalist view, the literal interpretation of the Bible, the rejection of the ordination of women and the willingness to denounce those with whom they do not agree, claiming their ‘Bible-based’ interpretation as the only truth.
“He and his movement are not prepared to break away from the diocese and start their own reform church because of the wealth, power and property that is attached to the diocese. So, now, after 25 years of factional lobbying they have full control over Standing Committee and the theology taught at Moore College, and Anglican Sydney, rendered powerless in its protest, is faced with the battle of avoiding an unwanted conversion.”
To his critics, Jensen is the smiling face of homophobia and a hypocrite who preaches the need to create space for diverse opinion abroad while seeking to snuff out dissent at home. From Jensen’s point of view, he is on a mission to save the Anglican church from chaos, and western Christians from losing the plot.”

Shades of Militant Tendency. Perhaps you are too young to remember…Liverpool and a chap called Hatton. In the C of E over the years, we have tolerated a few uber-puritans—remember Tony Higton (I wonder what happened to him) and the ubiquitous geordie, David Holloway (he is still around and has signed up as a Foca).
No, David, people in the exclusive Sydney glass house shouldn’t throw stones at Mother Church…which would, I’m sure, always welcome you home to the fold…albeit in Jesmond.

[25] Posted by gweilo on 07-08-2008 at 02:44 AM • top

My opinion is that the Jerusalem group of Primates should get busy immediately on issuing a statement affirming that those who oppose WO will always be respected by their movement and will be guaranteed structural security if realignment becomes necessary in the future of any national church.  We want the Church to be the Church for all people and not just a rump evangelical sect.

If all the Anglo-Catholics get run out, and the evangelicals who oppose WO also, where are we with respect to the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic church?”

[26] Posted by Katherine on 07-08-2008 at 03:01 AM • top

gweilo,  Perhaps you are too young to remember, or in the apostate climate of the seminary where you were taught, may indeed not have been exposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nor have had opportunity for actual old-fashioned conversion. 

Happily, that will be changing, with the occurrences within the Church of England.


The Church of England, by her very recent actions and the words of her leaders, has just qualified the British Isles for mission status under the GAFCon Statement and Jerusalem Declaration.

Rejoice, Jesus Christ, the King of Kings will prevail.  Revelation 19:11-16

He will find the faithful Bride.  Revelation 21:1-8

[27] Posted by Theodora on 07-08-2008 at 03:28 AM • top

For all of my Church of England brethren, welcome to the Episcopal Church (or Anglican Church of Canada if you prefer). You currently have a leader of Griswoldian proportions, right down to his surface High-Churchiness. What’s coming next is your very own Katherine Jefferts Schori or Fred Hiltz.

The progression is probable, but not inevitable. So there is still time to decide what to do.

But the main thing to be wary of is bishops who flaunt orthodox credentials. Far too many Canadian and American bishops found that when the rubber hit the road, they preferred being a bishop to serving Christ. There’s an exquisite sense of betrayal when you are a member of a diocese that has chosen heresy over schism.

In evaluating bishops, I have found it useful to ask the question “What would Athanasius do?” I commend that to you.

What Spirit leads you?

[28] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 07-08-2008 at 03:38 AM • top

David+

I agree, this is about role. It is an odd objection to the biblical role distinctions to say “it is not a sin to be a woman.” Of course no one thinks that it is, certainly not the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul. But the same Holy Spirit who says that there is no male or female, Jew or Gentile…etc…also says “wives submit to your husbands”. There is a clear role distinction within the ontological equality between man and woman.

This is not an odd idea. There is a role distinction within the Trinity. Despite the co-equality of Father and Son, the Son obeys the Father and the Father sends the Son.

[29] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 07-08-2008 at 03:45 AM • top

gweilo, I’m sorry that you seem so intent upon finding a division where none exists. St James really isn’t as restricted as you intimate - certainly my dear friend (no fan at all of Jensen) never mentioned any such restriction to me in our 4 and half years of friendship.

It does none of us any good to try and manufacture problems where they don’t occur.

btw, you ever met Peter Jensen? Talked to him? Raised your concerns with him? I think you’d incredibly surprised at what sort of a man he was.

[30] Posted by David Ould on 07-08-2008 at 03:57 AM • top

Fr. Matt, when you quote BB here:

It is an odd objection to the biblical role distinctions to say “it is not a sin to be a woman.”

I think you may be missing her [very good] point,  being made to those who are in favor of WO. One of their strongest arguments is that is a sort of gynephobia, if you will, that causes people to oppose WO.  She correctly calls this a red herring and blocks their attempt by saying, in essence, “We will stipulate that it’s not a sin to be a woman,” and I think her point is well taken. 
Her overall take on the situation is excellent, and her #6 bears reading again.

[31] Posted by HeartAfire on 07-08-2008 at 04:17 AM • top

RE: “However, your reply only addressed a tangential issue.”

Yes, indeed, David’s reply only addressed a tangential issue—it was the tangential issue that gweilo brought up when he talked about “allowing” churches “a little more liturgical latitude”

But that was rather a mistaken, because then it took only one more comment for us to learn what gweilo’s real beef with the Diocese of Sydney is . . . and that is that according to the warden in the newspaper he quotes “the literal interpretation of the Bible, the rejection of the ordination of women and the willingness to denounce those with whom they do not agree” along with Jensen’s “homophobia” . . . in other words, the basic conservatism with which gweilo does not agree.

Why can’t Jensen be “inclusive” gweilo is saying—by being a rank heretic like TEC, and then for good measure kicking all the conservatives to the curb like TEC.  Nice.

The letter writer goes on to complain about the political success of Jensen: “full control over Standing Committee and the theology taught at Moore College”.

Heh.

Nice to see that there is one bishop who has been successful at preventing revisionists from doing precisely as they have done in TEC, which is take over Standing Committees and seminaries.

A revealing series of comments.

[32] Posted by Sarah on 07-08-2008 at 05:04 AM • top

I think we need to be opened “Ephphatha” to the possiblities of women Bishops.  It is the women that traditionally hold the families together.  Don’t you think that if Jesus were here today that he would embrace this opportunity?

Or perhaps women in the church should simply wear a Burkka and be silenced….would that be better?

[33] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 06:14 AM • top

precious1, is it your belief that Jesus is not here today?

And that’s it!  Those nasty traditionalists want us all in burqas!  You’ve discovered their evil plot!

[34] Posted by Katherine on 07-08-2008 at 06:24 AM • top

I agree with you David. 

There is simply no justification for the lack of a structural accomodation for fellow believers,... that is, apart from the desire to anathematize the reasserters on this issue.  This is the only witness I see from these actions.  May God have mercy on us all. 

rolleyes

[35] Posted by tired on 07-08-2008 at 06:28 AM • top

#34
It is my belief that we ARE the hands, the feet, the heart and soul of Jesus.  He continues to walk this earth through our love of humanity.
Jesus is very much here…in all ways.

[36] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 06:39 AM • top

*If* Jesus were here today?

[37] Posted by oscewicee on 07-08-2008 at 07:14 AM • top

And of course, as a little PS, I also need to point out that it is not the orthodox or conservatives that have ever trumpeted their “inclusion” as a primary value.  In fact, we’ve always been straightforward about the need to exclude heresy.  It is, in fact, the revisionists who have trumpeted their “inclusion” as a primary value—and so it is quite pleasant to point out that in reality their statements about inclusion and affirmation only applied to their particular beliefs—and not at all to the traditionalists.

It’s not merely hypocrisy when the revisionists trumpet “inclusion” as one of their Primary Values.  It’s frank, calculated lying.

So gweilo’s comments about the lack of “inclusion” of the Diocese of Sydney—as he first began with “liturgical latitude” and then promptly shifted over to the real beef which is “they don’t include my heresies” is also a red herring on this thread.  Simply the response of an angry priest who doesn’t like David pointing out just what lies the revisionists are proferring when they tout “inclusion.”

[38] Posted by Sarah on 07-08-2008 at 07:35 AM • top

precious1. The question has nothing to do with whether or not this is an “opportunity”. The question is whether or not God’s Word in any way permits a woman to serve in the capacity of Bishop. I do not believe that it does.

But regardless of what I think, Jesus would NEVER act or approve of action that cuts against the written word he inspired.

The Holy Spirit will never lead the church into such an action.

This is why all things must be tested by the measure of scripture

[39] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 07-08-2008 at 07:40 AM • top

Don’t you think that if Jesus were here today that he would embrace this opportunity?

This kind of question is precisely the reason why we are in the mess we are in today. We get good feelings by saying to ourselves “If the Lord were here he would tell us to: ordain women, bless same-sex unions, ordain homosexuals, etc.” The list could go on forever, and it continues to go on every time we add a new innovation to the faith.

Our Lord was quite clear about the changes he wanted made within the life of God’s people: he ate with tax collectors and sinners, he called out sinfulness for what it was, he showed the ultimate mercy on us sinners by dying for us.

Certainly, he could have included some women among the twelve, but he did not. Certainly, he could have included some women among those upon whom he breathed the Holy Spirit and made them apostles, but he did not. Certainly, he could have placed women in positions of headship but he did not. The real red herring in all these arguments is the one that says that Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit makes men and women equal. Surely, there is equality for all of us before God, but equality of forgiveness and grace, does not add up to sameness. This is the problem. Jesus did not overturn his Father’s will in creation, that is male and female he created them. Each has their own purpose and responsibility. To turn that order upside down, causes confusion and conflict.

The saddest thing is that the sign of Jonah had been given the CofE, and it was called TEC. Yet they did not heed the warning.

Sometimes, we just have to do as Jesus did, and he did not do anything like what we are doing to the ordered ministry of His Church.

[40] Posted by CenTex Priest on 07-08-2008 at 09:12 AM • top

Peter Ould [30]
I can see through your dark glass dimly and, believe it or not, I understand your potential problem if you should want to return to the CofE and I genuinely sympathize. Sydney may be only a ‘pit stop’ in your journey in ministry but you are lumbered with its somewhat disturbing credentials. You have stated—in part provoking my post—as follows;

I have to say, I feel like an unwelcome stranger in my own church. I am now, in a way, a criminal and my crime is the outrageously henious act of not moving at all.
And so….the lie of the broad church is demolished once and for all. I am now outside the church (not,presumably, in Sydney diocese but rather in the CofE), on a matter that is, according to the discussions of the church, still debatable and where people on both sides are understood to hold their position in good conscience. And that is a ridiculous state of affairs. Our “broad church” has become even narrower.

Imagine, for a moment, a CofE priest whose two sons with six children between them are settled—as Australians citizens—in Sydney. The priest, a British Citizen, would like to move to Sydney to be close to his family. He is a liberal catholic who always prepared to admit that his way…his particular interpretations of the great mystery may be wrong and ++David Jensen may well turn out to have hit the jackpot.He doesn’t have a dog’s chance of serving in Sydney diocese; the various reactions of Head of the Family Firm and his younger brother, the Dean, have made that quite clear. Sydney is a closed shop—as is well known. Not so very different from your potential concern is it? A broad church is a much better prospective employer wherever it may be located.

Sarah Hey has completely missed my point as she rubbishes inclusiveness and extols the pristine virtues of the literalist Bible-bashing path, which leads, inevitably, to a religious cul-de-sac and the status of an eccentric sect.

I suppose you could always volunteer as an ecclesiastical storm trooper (armed with the inevitable floppy Bible)and sign up for the FOCA assault on the CofE. But don’t bank on it.

[41] Posted by gweilo on 07-08-2008 at 09:23 AM • top

I am actually beginning to enjoy sitting back and watching the revisionists come out of the cracks, running and gnashing and bringing their sarcastic and mean-spirited rants here to SF, as gweilo continues to do. 
It gives me hope that they feel the heat of their actions being turned up, and are reacting and showing their truest selves.
I’m beginning to get a sort of “darkest before the dawn” kind of feeling.  So bring it on!

[42] Posted by HeartAfire on 07-08-2008 at 09:29 AM • top

Precious 1, if I am supposed to be “the heart and soul of Jesus” then humanity is in a lot of trouble!!

[43] Posted by HeartAfire on 07-08-2008 at 09:32 AM • top

Lord, I pray that You would come down from on High and infuse some Holy Spirit love and understanding in and upon gweilo. Open his/her eyes to the fullness of You, Lord, and remove this angry hatered from them. The ax that this person is trying to grind is not of you Lod and is not what a follower of yours would do. So I beseech thee to touch gweilo in a mighty way!
In Jesus Christ Name. Amen!

[44] Posted by TLDillon on 07-08-2008 at 09:35 AM • top

I feel that Rowan doesn’t particularly respect KJS, but it’s funny how he ended up welded to her.  That weld looks strong and well forged.  I don’t think he meant for that to happen.

[45] Posted by Looking for Leaders on 07-08-2008 at 09:38 AM • top

It also seems funny to me that KJS and RW are sort of opposites in the credentials department, yet are now welded together, whether they like it or not.

[46] Posted by Looking for Leaders on 07-08-2008 at 09:40 AM • top

#39
Where is it written that women cannot serve as leaders in the church?

[47] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 09:48 AM • top

Women have been serving as leaders in the church from the beginning. Or did you mean “serve as clergy”?

[48] Posted by oscewicee on 07-08-2008 at 09:50 AM • top

<i>A broad church is a much better prospective employer wherever it may be located.<i>

I have never understood that the purpose of a church was to be a good prospective employer.

[49] Posted by oscewicee on 07-08-2008 at 09:53 AM • top

There is a lot of talk about how women cannot be Bishops.  SHOW us where in the world this is written in scripture.

[50] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 09:54 AM • top

#49 oscewicee,
Me either! I always saw the church as a hospital for sinners though! But even that has been changed by the liberal revisionists. ow it has becme a place to have your sins affirmed. Sad!

[51] Posted by TLDillon on 07-08-2008 at 09:57 AM • top

#47 precious1 - I can assure you that’s NOT what Matt+ in #39 saying, rather critiquing your logical process in which you reached your conclusion. He’s reasoned position is probably closer your own than you may think, but Matt+ is making a delineation of why something should or should not be, not pointing to worldly logic or opportunity rather to Scripture. (I’ll give you a hint, his wife is more than his partner in ministry by marriage, she also holds title Associate Rector).

[52] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 07-08-2008 at 09:57 AM • top

There is a lot of talk about how women cannot be Bishops. SHOW us where in the world this is written in scripture.

I believe that this has been answered and pointed out many times on various threads already.Both in the last few days as well as in the past year. Can Sarah, Jackie, Greg, or Matt, give links for Stand Firms’ newest member since July 6th, please.

[53] Posted by TLDillon on 07-08-2008 at 10:01 AM • top

#53
Would you enlighten me then?  Please show me the exact scripture reference(s) that would back up your opinion.

[54] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 10:13 AM • top

#54
My opinion is the same as many here who have already given you the answer on various other threads. Where are the exact scriptures that back up your opinion and by the way you still have not answered my earlier queston from yessterday…which diocese are you in?

[55] Posted by TLDillon on 07-08-2008 at 10:33 AM • top

Well Precious1,

You could begin in 1st Timothy 2:11 and then proceed on through chapter 3 of the same letter which sets out the qualification for ecclesial leadership and, given that women have already (in chapt 2:11) been placed under male authority/headship and denied the exercise of the same.

[56] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 07-08-2008 at 10:36 AM • top

Apologies, David Ould. I transposed your Christian name with that of your leader in my Post - no 41. I just hope that he haven’t sent it on to your brother!

[57] Posted by gweilo on 07-08-2008 at 11:17 AM • top

RE: “Sarah Hey has completely missed my point as she rubbishes inclusiveness and extols the pristine virtues of the literalist Bible-bashing path, which leads, inevitably, to a religious cul-de-sac and the status of an eccentric sect.”

Well no I haven’t—you like “inclusiveness” . . . You don’t like conservative Anglican theology.  It’s really quite simple—nothing you’ve said falls out of the usual revisionist boilerplate.  We all see that.

It’s really quite yawnable . . .

But I’m sure it’s irksome to have David Ould point out that all of your revisionism isn’t really [ahem] “inclusive” like you claim you believe.

Hence your increasingly shrill tone on this thread.

But not to worry—it goes nicely with your gospel and if you behaved any differently we’d all wonder if you were a fake. 

Our expectations, happily, are fully lived up to again . . .  ; > )

[58] Posted by Sarah on 07-08-2008 at 12:22 PM • top

1 Timothy 2-11
Paul is talking about a specific group of women that were spreading false gospel.  This was never meant to be the final word for every woman.  The false teachings involved deceit and seduction.  This passage the speaks to the situation at Ephesus and not to women universally.

[59] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 01:08 PM • top

And how do you know that precious. Is there something in the text that would indicate that your interpretation is correct. It seems, strangely if your argument is correct, that he grounds his exhortation in the created order…or did you read that far?

[60] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 07-08-2008 at 01:11 PM • top

gweilo,  liberalism isn’t fought because it’s liberalism, but because it is unscriptural and heretical, not faithful to the true Gospel and faith.  It’s impossible to be orthodox and prohomosex at the same time.

[61] Posted by Floridian on 07-08-2008 at 01:17 PM • top

#54, the problem with your question is that with perhaps the exception of the diaconate, any argument which supports WO being promoted in scripture is either an argument from silence (there are no exact scriptures which say that women should be ordained) or an argument based on interpolation of one idea to the other (i.e. just because Paul says that women should not have headship doesn’t mean they can’t be leaders.)

[62] Posted by CenTex Priest on 07-08-2008 at 01:30 PM • top

Uh Oh, looks like somebody has been reading too heavily into our friends at the Jesus seminar (precious1).  That idea that the Ephesus message was just for them and not to be taken as a good idea for any other church (what a concept!) I first heard from the JS dudes.

KTF!...mrb

[63] Posted by Mike Bertaut on 07-08-2008 at 01:33 PM • top

David

You are not entirely alone when you write “I have to say, I feel like an unwelcome stranger in my own church. I am now, in a way, a criminal and my crime is the outrageously henious act of not moving at all.”  Of course my sin may be greater than yours:  I dared to ask to worship occasionally in the traditional language and liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer, Rite I.  But be of good cheer.  If you keep your pledge up to date, your presence could well be overlooked.

[64] Posted by Dhimmi on 07-08-2008 at 01:36 PM • top

#63
....or maybe my knowledge comes from study.

[65] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 02:35 PM • top

well then, it shouldn’t be too difficult for a student of your caliber to answer the question…

[66] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 07-08-2008 at 02:39 PM • top

#66
My question is where those who feel women should not be Bishops get THEIR knowledge from.  It seems that it is in their interpretation. The original languages have made it a challenge to understand intend and culture when written at that time…in that language.

[67] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 02:46 PM • top

I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

I would agree, for all the people who are not in any part of everywhere, this is not universal.

[68] Posted by Rocks on 07-08-2008 at 02:47 PM • top

Oh-ho-ho…..
Please let’s stop feeding this precious revisionist troll…..

[69] Posted by HeartAfire on 07-08-2008 at 03:17 PM • top

Which begs the question - Why does Matt+ have bigger difficulties with “his” interpretation, than precious, since they have nearly identical frames of reference?  Why would Matt+‘s difficulties be -much- bigger?

Perhaps thinking about these things will help to pass the time, y’know, during the long wait.

[70] Posted by Moot on 07-08-2008 at 03:28 PM • top

precious1,

This is humorous.  First you make a positive assertion about the meaning of Scripture:

Paul is talking about a specific group of women that were spreading false gospel.  This was never meant to be the final word for every woman.  The false teachings involved deceit and seduction.  This passage the speaks to the situation at Ephesus and not to women universally.

And then when asked to justify this assertion, you plead the opacity of Scripture, and try to change the subject by demanding justification from your opponent - the very same justification you are unable or unwilling to provide.

My question is where those who feel women should not be Bishops get THEIR knowledge from.  It seems that it is in their interpretation. The original languages have made it a challenge to understand intend and culture when written at that time…in that language.

As I said, it’s humorous.  And revealing.

carl

[71] Posted by carl on 07-08-2008 at 03:33 PM • top

carl,
She, (precious1), demands answers to her questions but never answers ours. She asks for back up of our interpretations but never gives us hers…who does this remind you of? No more feeding….we have real work to do for the Kingdom of God and the souls that are at stake.

[72] Posted by TLDillon on 07-08-2008 at 04:00 PM • top

gweilo,

hope things are going well for you in Hong Kong. You should send my contact details to your liberal catholic friend and I will be able to send him a list of various parishes in Sydney diocese that, I suspect, may suit him rather well. Somehow that archBully Jensen seems to have overlooked them and allowed them a large measure of freedom of conscience. wink

So, back to my question - have you ever met Peter Jensen? Or is your opinion of him built upon hearsay?

[73] Posted by David Ould on 07-08-2008 at 04:32 PM • top

#71
This is your way of changing the subject.  But the spotlight on the other guy.  You still have not given me any source of your knowledge.  I am not fooled.

[74] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 05:51 PM • top

I see the pattern.  You ask a question.  You get an honest and educated (well studied) answer….then you ATTACK.  It is your way of changing the sugbject.  As my dear father says, “don’t confuse them with the facts”......  Oh yeah…

[75] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 05:56 PM • top

What answer? 

You “responded” with a lame “rheotorical” question itself designed to not answer.  The best you’ve “done” is provide doubts that cast as deep a shadow on your own position as they do on Matt+‘s, and you can’t even take ownership of that problem for your position.

Good grief.

[76] Posted by Moot on 07-08-2008 at 06:09 PM • top

Please stop attacking.  What kind of a christian setting is this?  It doesn’t exactly make people feel like they want to be here…..

[77] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 06:40 PM • top

precious1 write:

This is your way of changing the subject.  But the spotlight on the other guy.  You still have not given me any source of your knowledge.  I am not fooled.

Matt Kennedy needs no help from me.  I was just commenting on the glaring inconsistency in your argument.

You ask a question.  You get an honest and educated (well studied) answer….then you ATTACK.

Actually, you made an assertion about Scripture.  You provided no justification for that assertion at all.  And when you were asked to justify that assertion with exegesis, you responded with “Well, I have studied and stuff.”  Many other people on this site can make that claim as well.  Such argument carries no weight.  If you want to convince us, you must demonstrate by the text of Scripture that your assertion is correct. 

Remember, <u>you</u> made this assertion:

Paul is talking about a specific group of women that were spreading false gospel.  This was never meant to be the final word for every woman.  The false teachings involved deceit and seduction.  This passage the speaks to the situation at Ephesus and not to women universally.

All you have been asked to do is apply all that study you mentioned and prove it.

carl

Criminy.  Now ODC is gonna thwack me again.

[78] Posted by carl on 07-08-2008 at 06:59 PM • top

Wow. 

- Offering an interpretation unsubstantiated by the text;
..and then attacking all exegesis on the basis of “the ancient culture” problem;
- “Responding” to Matt+‘s question over exegesis, by asking to for better substantiation from us;
- Continuing to avoid addressing problems that are brought onto someone attacking on the ancient / present front;
- And now apparently we’re talking about feelings. 

Okay. 

Well, you’ve hurt my feelings, how ‘bout them apples?  There now, I claim victory.

[79] Posted by Moot on 07-08-2008 at 06:59 PM • top

precious1,
  It may seem like attacks, but they aren’t. Sarcastic perhaps. Your answers may be honestly held by you but there is nothing well studied or educated about it. It’s an old one, well refuted, and not supported by the text.

It’s about as educated as the arguments of the Da Vinci Code.

[80] Posted by Rocks on 07-08-2008 at 07:10 PM • top

Please stop attacking.

Done.

What kind of a christian setting is this?

It’s a weblog.

It doesn’t exactly make people feel like they want to be here

Yes it does, as evidenced by the fact that right now there are 404 people visiting StandFirm and Titusonenine, which is over 5 times the Average Sunday Attendance at an Episcopal church.

[81] Posted by Chazaq on 07-08-2008 at 07:34 PM • top

in your drems…..lol

[82] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 07:49 PM • top

(dreams)

[83] Posted by precious1 on 07-08-2008 at 07:50 PM • top

Has anyone thought of answering precious1 with 1 Timothy 3:2?  This verse might just wrap it up:

A bishop then, must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach.

There.  According to the Word of God, a bishop must be the husband of one wife, among other things.  That would eliminate the bishop being a woman, wouldn’t it?

Case closed.

[84] Posted by DaveW on 07-08-2008 at 08:38 PM • top

#78 carl,

Criminy. Now ODC is gonna thwack me again

Never! would I thwack you…..thump you maybe but never thwack! For sure I will pray for you as you continue to try and put some sense into this .......troll!
Lord, Pleae help my friend and brother in You with the precious1. You know her heart and what her real motives are. Protect my friend and brother carl from the mean-spiritedness that keeps cropping up. In your Holy Name. Amen!

[85] Posted by TLDillon on 07-08-2008 at 09:11 PM • top

T H E R E I S A T R O L L I N T H E H O U S E

[86] Posted by Intercessor on 07-08-2008 at 09:14 PM • top

Intercessor- isn’t there always at least one?
You know, they really don’t get it. My own life would be so much easier if some of them could just come up with a theologically relevant and logical premise for their arguments. Here, they always want us to do all their homework for them.  It is like the student who doesn’t do their assignment, and assumes they can tie up 3/4 of the class time asking the questions they themselves would be able to answer if they had read the chapters per the syllabus.

[87] Posted by tjmcmahon on 07-08-2008 at 09:20 PM • top

TJ- It’s Schori 101…say anything but do not say Praise the Lord!
Intercessor

[88] Posted by Intercessor on 07-08-2008 at 09:23 PM • top

This is a must read from The Times
This last paragraph is most disturbing:

She said that no-one had wanted to upset traditionalists. “It worries me that they feel upset. But I really do not believe they are all going to leave. Obviously they wanted to state their position as strongly as possible but people who really could not accept the ordination of women had plenty of time to leave after 1992 when the Synod voted to ordain women priests.”

[89] Posted by TLDillon on 07-08-2008 at 09:32 PM • top

Intercessor -

Regarding Trolls - so are you trying to make some kind of point?  LOL! smile

[90] Posted by Eclipse on 07-08-2008 at 09:54 PM • top

Ya Know!......There was a real good reason why God said to Adam:

Genesis 2:16-17
  And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, [17] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Then he had to go and listen to that woman, Eve and then:

Genesis 3:17
      And to Adam he said,“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’    cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

And now they want to make them priests and bishops….Go figure!

[91] Posted by TLDillon on 07-08-2008 at 10:18 PM • top

I’m not trying to stir the pot here, but I would like to pick up a couple things from precious1. It does appear that there are at least two cases of women holding positions of authority in the 1st Century church.

2 John 1-4: The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father.

John uses the word “children” in his third letter to describe people he has discipled, thus the chosen lady would appear to have disciples as well. They may all be women disciples, but we’re not told.

The other example was the church in Thyatira, where Jezebel was teaching false doctrine. Jesus’s message to the church was to return to the true Gospel, but He does not appear to be concerned with her gender vis-a-bis her role as a teacher in the church.

So we have the questions of Paul’s instructions on women being universal and now we have two cases of women leaders (one positive and one negative). I’m not convinced either way myself, but I’d appreciate others’ thoughts. That won’t be seen as an attack…

[92] Posted by texex on 07-09-2008 at 08:18 AM • top

But, texex, isn’t it possible that ‘the chosen lady’ is a figurative expression for the Church which is always feminine, the Bride of Christ?  Mary is the ikon of the Church, the ‘theotokos, ‘Christ bearer’.  We as the church are entrusted to contain and nurture the seed of the Word/Gospel, to bear fruit, to present Christ to the world.

[93] Posted by Theodora on 07-09-2008 at 08:25 AM • top

She said that no-one had wanted to upset traditionalists. “It worries me that they feel upset.

It’s just “feelings” - not conscience, not principles. And she’s very complacent that they won’t leave. She doesn’t even consider that they might fight. I hope she gets some surprises.

[94] Posted by oscewicee on 07-09-2008 at 08:29 AM • top

Floridian, agreed, that is possible. It’s also possible that she could be an actual lady with male disciples.

When John Stott discusses this issue in “The Contemporary Christian” he offers the possibility that women keeping silent in church had to do with the language the service was conducted in and the relative lack of education women had in the 1sy Century. Instead of having their husband translate in real time and disturb the congregation, it was better for them to wait until they got home and hear their husband relate the message to them then.

[95] Posted by texex on 07-09-2008 at 09:44 AM • top

texex,
For your consideration, if I may, I would like to offer an alternative that is not usually considered regarding the passage on women being silent.  It may be that this provision was made not only for church order but to strengthen the order and spiritual teaching of the home.  I have been tossing this around in my head for a while and it still resembles Reformed ploughboy theology more than Anglican seminarian work but here it is.

I come at this with the presupposition that the Bible speaks to us in our fallen nature and accounts for and provides remedy for our natural weakness known by our loving Creator who is providing aid in seeking Him.

First, husbands should be spiritual leaders of their homes.  Knowing that men are adept at shirking this responsibility the Lord may have provided this as an empowerment to wives.  Wives could ask the priest questions but as history demonstrates husbands readily walk away from their ordained jobs if given the opportunity. To discourage such this verse empowers a wife to put her husband on the spot and hold him accountable for what he should have been cheerfully delivering in the first place. She has been given a gentle stick, as it were, and permission to use it.  If a husband has been lax in his own growth, then it becomes incumbent on him to go to the priest and become properly equipped to give answer. 

Second, in general, women develop deeper intimacy through conversation and sharing deep emotional concerns.  What could be deeper and more intimate than discussions of the soul?  By a woman going to ask these questions of her husband, and her husband having these discussions with her, they are offered an opportunity not only to grow together in the Lord, but grow to a deeper and more intimate relationship as husband and wife.

In the context of our day to day lives as they are lived out it is difficult for me to see how the passage in question could be anything but a blessing for the husband, the wife, or their priest.

[96] Posted by Lawrence+ on 07-09-2008 at 11:42 AM • top

One Day Closer,
In quoting the OT are you making a statement?  Do you follow all of the rules of the OT (kosher diet, an eye for an eye, et cetera)?

[97] Posted by precious1 on 07-10-2008 at 11:24 AM • top

precious1 :

IT is a well known and established fact that every Christian on the planet observes every single commandment of the Old Testament.  Especially the one about seafood and women not being touched during their menstrual cycle.  You also might of noted the fact that all Christians have the names of Old Testament Prophets AND actually have written everything in Aramaic and Greek… well except me, because I am really a Cat who blogs on the Internet, and hence have not learnt any other language.  All those Sunday School pictures you see for children?  They are done with LIVE models of present day Christians going to church today… although I will admit finding sandals as a cat does pose a problem.

I’m so glad you asked so we could clarify that.

[98] Posted by Eclipse on 07-10-2008 at 11:32 AM • top

Ecilpse,
Exactly.  That is what I thought too.

[99] Posted by precious1 on 07-10-2008 at 12:59 PM • top

Eclipse,

Sarcasm can be wasted if it is taken seriously. 

Precious,

There are numerous examples in the New Testament where the Old Testament is quoted.  In such places, we see the consistency between the way that God deals with Old Testament Theocratic Israel, and the Gentiles. 

The fact that in some parts of the New Testament, we’re told that some things are no longer necessary (e.g., kosher diet, circumcision), doesn’t logically require us to throw out the OT with the proverbial bathwater (c.f., Matt 5:18). 

The Westminster Confession of Faith puts it this way:

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
(WCF XIX)

[100] Posted by Moot on 07-10-2008 at 03:21 PM • top

Moot,
The Westminster Confession of Faith met for 6 years in the mid 1600’s and produced the major Confessional Standards of the Presbyterian faith.  The assembly consisted of 30 laymen and 121 clergy.  The Westminster Assembly was an advisory arm of the Parliament who selected its members, proposed its topics for discussion and delineated its scope of work.  The completed work of the Westminster Assembly was eventually adopted with revisions in England, but was revoked during the Restoration in 1660.
So the reference to this work is not entirely solid.

[101] Posted by precious1 on 07-10-2008 at 07:40 PM • top

(typo…12=121 clergy)

[102] Posted by precious1 on 07-10-2008 at 07:41 PM • top

Moot :

LOL!  I guess so - are you up for the next Moses goes to Sinai photo or am I?  I’ve forgotten.

precious1

Reality is, Christians take the whole Bible in context and as Truth.  Christ used the OT - shouldn’t we?

Reality is that women are not allowed to have authority over men in the NT - and that’s all there is to it. 

I don’t even know why we are having such a fuss over it all.

[103] Posted by Eclipse on 07-10-2008 at 07:49 PM • top

Precious,

‘Revoked’ is a relative term.  The WCF upholds the doctrine of the Trinity… did we also revoke the doctrine of the Trinity during 1660? 

I included the reference because I think the theology presented is both helpful and useful.  It keeps the OTTI ceremonial and judicial practices in their proper Redemptive-Historical context, without undermining the OT.  That’s a difficult balancing act, and I think they pulled it off nicely. 

As to the degree of the WCF’s authority, even conservative Presbyterians hold varying theories on how strictly the confession should be interpreted.  A classic example of this tension I have heard of involves an elder interviewing a cantidate for pastoral licensure.  The cantidate was asked, “Do you believe that the WCF is infallible?”  The cantidate replied that it was infallible in those places where it quoted Scripture..  A gem of an answer.

[104] Posted by Moot on 07-10-2008 at 08:47 PM • top

I protest Eclipse, for I am so slow of speech and tongue!

[105] Posted by Moot on 07-10-2008 at 08:49 PM • top

I guess the enitre point is that the intrerpretations in the Westminster Confession of Faith was put together by humans…not divine ones.  If we can focus and keep the emotion out of this discussion, perhaps we can get to truth.
When Jesus came, he did make changes.  He told us that an eye for an eye was replaced by turning the other cheek for example.  There are many other such examples.
In addition, I trust the mystery of God and I am opened to HIS will…not my will….or your will.

[106] Posted by precious1 on 07-11-2008 at 06:43 AM • top

Moot - yep, it’s you.  I thought so.  I’m going out for the Egyptian photo ops myself - cats are not a real Hebrew kind of thing- perhaps I can be in the slavery pictures carrying straw or something.

[107] Posted by Eclipse on 07-11-2008 at 09:01 AM • top

Do you believe that the Bible is all that God had to say?

[108] Posted by precious1 on 07-11-2008 at 10:47 AM • top

Precious(108),

In a word, YES!

[109] Posted by Chip Johnson, cj on 07-11-2008 at 10:52 AM • top

Chip,
Then why would you pray?  How does that work?

[110] Posted by precious1 on 07-11-2008 at 10:57 AM • top

I guess the enitre point is that the intrerpretations in the Westminster Confession of Faith was put together by humans…not divine ones.

Where have I indicated to the contrary??  The WCF doesn’t even credit itself with infallibility, yet you’re critiquing it as such.  I’ve offered it up for consideration as a useful document - you may take it or leave it at your whim. 

Were I to disregard this portion of the WCF as unworthy of my consideration, I would try to find a better reason to do so than, “Well, they’re only human.”  That’s a truism - they’re only human… you’re only human… I’m only human.  If thoughtful statements made by humans are to be tossed aside on the basis of their human origin, then all human knowledge is destroyed, inclusive of the crusty old divines and you and I and everyone else. 

If we can focus and keep the emotion out of this discussion, perhaps we can get to truth.

I would say that first, we need to get past irrelevant comments, dealing with “feelings” and “emotion,”  Like, e.g., the above comment. 

When Jesus came, he did make changes.  He told us that an eye for an eye was replaced by turning the other cheek for example.  There are many other such examples.

Yes.  And He also said that not one jot or tittle would pass away from the Law, until all was fulfilled.  So, it’s a mix composed of:
(a)  things that pass away, and;
(b)  things that do not pass away. 

To assert too much of (a) is to risk antinomianism, and to risk too much of (b) is to risk another extreme.

[111] Posted by Moot on 07-11-2008 at 11:01 AM • top

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