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Steel Yourselves for Lambeth’s Real Message

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 • 9:34 am

Evangelical Anglicans are going to have to get used to two-and-a-half weeks of being accused, lied about and generally having their views abused, during the Lambeth Conference. I’m not saying that to invite pity or suggest that evangelicals are persecuted and so on, but that the climate in the church and media makes it inevitable.
US media strategy

Evangelical Anglicans are going to have to get used to two-and-a-half weeks of being accused, lied about and generally having their views abused, during the Lambeth Conference. I’m not saying that to invite pity or suggest that evangelicals are persecuted and so on, but that the climate in the church and media makes it inevitable. Gafcon’s timing has left liberal Christianity on a wave of triumphal progressivism which is unlikely to end when the bishops fly back to their dioceses at the beginning of August. The consequence of the fact that over 200 evangelicals and traditionalists from Africa and other places have elected to stay away from the Lambeth Conference, is that liberal Anglicans will be the loudest voices at the table drowning out voices of reason.

Their aim might be viewed as benign – no decisions, no resolutions at the Lambeth Conference – but that is to mistake the official proceedings for the clear message that will be sent out.

Each American bishop has been given a prepaid UK mobile phone and a list of each other’s telephone numbers (a copy of this list appeared in my computer inbox). They have all received a media briefing which stresses the diversity of the Anglican Communion and the hard work ahead in pressing on with issues to do with poverty and war and so on. So they will be kept on-message. They will also be kept in touch with the fringes of the conference – Gene Robinson in the market place and any other activities, and protests. All in all, it is an impressive effort to co-ordinate the Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgendered lobbyists, led by Bishop Robinson with the US Bishops.

Bishops on-message

What will be the message? Let us not forget that as far as the mass media is concerned traditionalist views are now regarded as obscurantist and bigoted. This is aided and abetted by the high profile of Bishop Robinson, who, let’s face it, is a brilliant communicator. With his constant use of the word ‘Fundamentalist’ to describe his theological opponents we are already at a disadvantage. And then he will have his security and bouncers around him, projecting the message ad nauseam that he has had death threats and fears for his life. While he insists that these are credible threats there have never been any arrests in the past five years. The threats he alleged were received from Britain on his personal phone in New Hampshire, were not reported to New Scotland Yard. While his security people have been in contact recently with Kent police, nothing has emerged from that by way of an investigation into these threats. Nevertheless he has spent $70,000 on security for his stay in Canterbury and will never make any effort to separate a few nutcases from the vast majority of evangelicals and conservatives who pray for him rather than wish him harm.. Additionally, he talks constantly of ‘violence’ against lesbians and gays in the words of conservative primates and clerics.

This amounts to a series of lies about evangelicals – that we wish him harm, that we are fundamentalists, that we do violence by our words, that we concentrate on this issue to the exclusion of all else. There are others that will be heard: that we are puritans, that we are hypocrites because we ignore other levitical prescriptions, that we are selective in our use of the Bible and so on.

A primer on Gene

You don’t need to read any more interviews with Gene Robinson. I have read scores of them and I can now almost finish his sentences for him.

Here is what he invariably says:

On death threats… “I wore a bullet proof vest at my consecration”…. “I’ve got credible death threats. I’m taking them very seriously”… “There are people in England who want me dead. All it takes is one.”

On the Bible… “Jesus never says anything about homosexuality. Fundamentalists want to just point to the Bible… Jesus himself tells us there is further truth to be learned and the Spirit will lead us into that truth. And I believed we’ve learned that about people of colour, about women and about those who are disabled and now about lesbian and gay people.”
On his critics… “Their language about me is violence against lesbian and gay people”… “To focus on this one issue almost to the exclusion of anything else is a kind of idolatry.”
On New Hampshire… “I invite people to come to the Diocese of New Hampshire and see what the Church is going to look like when we’ve finished obsessing about sex, because frankly we’re over it.”


This essay is scheduled to appear in the upcoming issue of the Church of England Newspaper
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Comments:

Evangelical Anglicans are going to have to get used to two-and-a-half weeks of being accused, lied about and generally having their views abused…

So, what’s new?

Each American bishop has been given a prepaid UK mobile phone and a list of each other’s telephone numbers (a copy of this list appeared in my computer inbox). They have all received a media briefing which stresses the diversity of the Anglican Communion and the hard work ahead in pressing on with issues to do with poverty and war and so on. So they will be kept on-message. They will also be kept in touch with the fringes of the conference – Gene Robinson in the market place and any other activities, and protests. All in all, it is an impressive effort to co-ordinate the Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgendered lobbyists, led by Bishop Robinson with the US Bishops

So, Mr. Robinson was not invited but is very much a part of Lambeth. Good Job Susan Russel/Integrity & KJS! That must have been a hefty check amount!
The Province of Christ the King is looking better and better to me!

[1] Posted by TLDillon on 07-16-2008 at 09:06 AM • top

So the Americans are here, and don’t we all know it?
We have had Bishop Jefferts-Schori preaching at us from Salisbury Cathedral telling us how one should run a church - LOL.
And we are being treated to 3 weeks of unremitting posturing, attacks of the vapors and amateur-dramatics from Bishop Robinson assisted by his delinquent chums throwing their lollypops and mobile phones about.

Well - we’ve rolled up the carpets, put away the silver, taken down the best pictures and put cling-film over the furniture.  We’ll be counting the spoons and the days.

[2] Posted by Pageantmaster on 07-16-2008 at 09:16 AM • top

Pageantmaster, do -dear fellow- count the sporks as well.

[3] Posted by dwstroudmd on 07-16-2008 at 09:19 AM • top

Pageantmaster,
After 2 weeks of the KJS, Susan Russell/Integrity, & VGR show you Brits will be asking yourselves, “How in the world did we get into this mess?” Then you can begin to e-mail, ring up, or wirte letters asking that very question to your AB…but don’t hold your breath for an answer! smile

[4] Posted by TLDillon on 07-16-2008 at 09:46 AM • top

The only thing wrong with this article is the word “evangelical.” I’ve seen less and less of that type of delineation over here, it used to be quite common, but I guess things have gotten poor enough for the faithful of all ilks that we’re trying to find an uneasy peace of how to live out Roman 12:5. So maybe a hidden blessing in the pressure cooker. I do hope the ‘Evangelical Anglicans’ read and take heed and maybe a few of those Andrew Carey was not address might as well.

[5] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 07-16-2008 at 09:54 AM • top

... but don’t hold your breath for an answer!

That task has been delegated to the Snarkster.

[6] Posted by Piedmont on 07-16-2008 at 09:56 AM • top

Sounds like the Bishops have taken a lesson from the Democratic convention play book.  Is the only difference between liberal Dems and leaders of TEC the funny hats they wear?

[7] Posted by fsbill on 07-16-2008 at 10:01 AM • top

That this was going to the liberal strategy was obvious some time ago, and played a bigger part in the Lambeth boycott then I think is given credit.  Say what you like, but the boycott has significantly reduced the importance of the Lambeth Conference to the media - there are no headlines about a showdown between Akinola and Williams, etc.

[8] Posted by jamesw on 07-16-2008 at 10:06 AM • top

Yes, fsbill (#7), you’ve got it.  I’ve been struck over the past months with the similarity between Ms. Clinton, Ms. Pelosi and KJS.

[9] Posted by Geosez on 07-16-2008 at 10:07 AM • top

Bishop Robinson, July 14, 2008 :

‘While young men are knifing each other on the streets of London and there are a billion people living on less than a dollar a day, the fact that the Anglicans argue over two men who want to make a family together makes the Church look irrelevant,’ he said.

From Andrew Carey:

And then he [Robinson] will have his security and bouncers around him, projecting the message ad nauseam that he has had death threats and fears for his life. While he insists that these are credible threats there have never been any arrests in the past five years. The threats he alleged were received from Britain on his personal phone in New Hampshire, were not reported to New Scotland Yard. While his security people have been in contact recently with Kent police, nothing has emerged from that by way of an investigation into these threats. Nevertheless he has spent $70,000 on security for his stay in Canterbury.

So much for Robinson’s true concern about the billion people living on less than a dollar a day. Rather than sending the 70 grand to areas in the Anglican Comunion that could use it to feed its people, he’ll spend it on a show of make believe threats.  The last celebrity who did that was the U.S. figure skater Tonya Harding.  Then, it turned out that it was Tonya’s ‘hired’ security goons who actually kneecapped her biggest threat, Nancy Kerrigan.

Maybe it’s a good thing those that opposed Bishop Robinson aren’t in London at this point…

[10] Posted by Mrs. Lawrence on 07-16-2008 at 10:12 AM • top

They need to stand up on high and castigate the faithful, they’ve already been redefining, framing everything to suit their whims in the hopes that their memes become accepted. Do not let them win. They must be answered by the gospel truth, calmly and with love. I believe this is one of those times that scripture warns us about, with false preachers, who worship false gods.

[11] Posted by mari on 07-16-2008 at 10:13 AM • top

As to who is obsessed with sex—if we dropped this item from the menu right now, I suppose we’d never hear another word about it from the revisionists? It’s our constant fare because they’re ... obsessed.

[12] Posted by oscewicee on 07-16-2008 at 10:14 AM • top

My only hope is that the TEC Show manages to convince provinces like the Middle East and Southeast Asia that TEC is really what the GAFCON crowd keeps trying to tell them they are.  Perhaps the farce of Lambeth will convince more to cut ties with TEC and sign up with GAFCON.

[13] Posted by AndrewA on 07-16-2008 at 10:17 AM • top

The fact is they are using the church, and all time available preaching about sex, they never discuss the poverty that exists in their own backyards, nor do they do anything about it. Considering the poverty that exits in Hampshire among citizens, what has Robinson done to help aleviate it? Nothing. The only thing they are in aid of is funneling monies into the pockets of the likes of Robert Mugabe, poverty and suffering only continues to grow under their MDG plan, it’s intent is to destabilize economies and reduce the poor of the world to Marxist slavery, most especially in the west.

[14] Posted by mari on 07-16-2008 at 10:21 AM • top

On New Hampshire… “I invite people to come to the Diocese of New Hampshire and see what the Church is going to look like when we’ve finished obsessing about sex, because frankly we’re over it.”

Well, you gotta admit, that’s the one place you know he WON’T be, ever, so if you want a break from the LGBT circus, go to New Hampshire.  Go figure.

[15] Posted by Paul B on 07-16-2008 at 10:22 AM • top

Just a quick note: Extremely unlikely that Gene Robinson has paid a dime of that $70,000 security tab.

[16] Posted by Greg Griffith on 07-16-2008 at 10:23 AM • top

Lambeth has become a pointless waste of time and money.  God bless those who think they can witness to Christ there but I expect it will be a fruitful wallow in the pigpen.  Yes, I expect there will be moments where the light breaks through the dense forest canopy and God’s rays touch a few there.  That happens in concentration camps also.  The curse of Babel is fixed upon the communion because so many have rejected the Word of God.  Without a common language, it will be a replay of the feast at Belbury ... Lewis’ anti-Eucharist of the society of hell.  If that lesson is recalled, in such company, language will be pointless.  So in the end, it will be silence that may be the most eloquent witness:

Love silence above everything else, for it brings you near to fruit which the tongue is too feeble to expound.  First of all we force ourselves to be silent, but then from out of our silence something else is born that draws us into silence itself.  May God grant you to perceive that which is born of silence!  If you begin in this discipline I do not doubt how much light will dawn in you from it.
St. Isaac the Syrian, Daily Readings with St. Isaac of Syria, Sebastian Brock (trans.), p. 46.

[17] Posted by monologistos on 07-16-2008 at 10:24 AM • top

I think the rest of the Bishops at the Lambeth Conference are going to be pretty peeved by the Robinson media circus. I’m sure they want to get out some messages about the millions of Aids orphans in Africa and what the Anglican church is doing to help them; about the threat posed by militant Islam, and what is being done to address that; about the successes in evangelism; But the Robinson media circus with interviews every day means their voice won’t be heard.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they re-affirm Lambeth 1998 and put an end to the listening process if this continues!

[18] Posted by Observing on 07-16-2008 at 10:24 AM • top

I imagine there are a lot of things that they are over with in the Diocese of NH.

[19] Posted by AndrewA on 07-16-2008 at 10:25 AM • top

PM #2 - ROFL!!!!!

Well - we’ve rolled up the carpets, put away the silver, taken down the best pictures and put cling-film over the furniture.  We’ll be counting the spoons and the days.

That’s got to be the best comment on Stand Firm all week!
Love it!  Thanks for the laugh and the refreshing perspective.

[20] Posted by Karen B. on 07-16-2008 at 10:26 AM • top

Is there any way to get stats on the number of baptisms in a given diocese over time?

[21] Posted by AndrewA on 07-16-2008 at 10:29 AM • top

#18 Observing - looking at the blogs of some of the British bishops they are looking forward to it with the same enthusiasm one might show for a trip to the dentist.

[22] Posted by Pageantmaster on 07-16-2008 at 10:40 AM • top

Robinson certainly has a whole closet full of dagger of the mind.

[23] Posted by texex on 07-16-2008 at 11:06 AM • top

Ould writes:  “Gafcon’s timing has left liberal Christianity on a wave of triumphal progressivism…”  I’d say that Gafcon’s timing put a big stumblingblock in the way of progressives winning the race.

GAFCON has lifted up the True Head of the Church, “The Archbishop of Archbishops”,  THE Chief Shepherd and Cornerstone and the attendees tasted (many for the first time in a long time) the real Unity in the Spirit (of Truth) in the Bond of Peace.

GAFCON now stands in witness of Jesus Christ to the progressives lies and as an obstacle in the progressives paths to be exact!

GAFCON Jerusalem Declaration signees and groups are increasing by the day. 

Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of HIS Church (not sinful disoriented distorted fallen men - or - women)

Jesus Christ will not be defeated, bought, manipulated or fooled. 

Lambeth and those attending would do well to align with His Word and message, The Gospel.

[24] Posted by Floridian on 07-16-2008 at 11:13 AM • top

PS - I think by now, no one with any connection to reality and in possession of their wits and right mind believes the progressives are in the least ‘benign’ or ‘innocent’.

Ha.

[25] Posted by Floridian on 07-16-2008 at 11:17 AM • top

I think everyone is missing the point here. Bishop Robinson is a fan of muscular Christianity and the $70K of security is his way of displaying it.

After all, Lambeth is about +Gene.

Doing the Lambeth Walk, but not the fun one.

[26] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 07-16-2008 at 11:22 AM • top

While young men are knifing each other on the streets of London and there are a billion people living on less than a dollar a day, the fact that the Anglicans argue over two men who want to make a family together makes the Church look irrelevant,’ he said.

I don’t think that the deaths on London’s streets are the churches fault, it is the government who are to blame by encouraging family break down, by doing thinks like making it easier to be divorced, making it more financially rewarding for parents to live apart, and legalizing lesbian adoption.

[27] Posted by PaulStead on 07-16-2008 at 11:31 AM • top

And, another thing, How dare he use the unfortunate and tragic death of youngsters on our streets to further his agenda.

[28] Posted by PaulStead on 07-16-2008 at 11:33 AM • top

Prayer, my brother and sisters - Prayer is our tool. No matter what events occur, let us not loose our composure on this site or elsewhere.  We know better.

We should possess calm confidence of what is really happening in and to the Church.  God has led the reforming and transforming “minority” (a remnant!) past obstacles and twisted truth and persecutions time and time again - His Righteousness goes before us and is also our rear guard. His Presence is here with us still, and the din of those who think they ride some wave of victory is not what we hear or see or know. 
Let us praise Him and sing with joy knowing He will continue to frustrate the counsel of those who are far from Him, and that the pits they dig will indeed be the pits into which they will fall.  This has already been done; we just need to allow the Spirit to speak boldly through us, and watch the events unfold.
Carrie in MD

[29] Posted by cityonahill on 07-16-2008 at 12:14 PM • top

Pageantmaster,
I am HORRIFIED at the dog-and-pony show the loudest TEC bishops are putting on for y’all. The English faithful who gathered for worship Sunday at the various cathedrals and churches where TEC bishops wrenched away the pulpits deserved to hear the WORD, not triumphant pronouncements on “the new thing.

Would that our reasonable and moderate bishops raise their voices to counter this most disturbing and embarrassing spectacle but nothing can make where the church is headed more impressively clear if something isn’t done NOW. I hope the C of E will watch, listen, learn and ACT.

[30] Posted by teatime on 07-16-2008 at 01:09 PM • top

“They will also be kept in touch with the fringes of the conference – Gene Robinson in the market place and any other activities, and protests. All in all, it is an impressive effort to co-ordinate the Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgendered lobbyists, led by Bishop Robinson with the US Bishops”.

And I hope that Britain and the world recognize this idolatrous secular circus for exactly what it is, having nothing to do with the Christian Gospel. 

C of E’s General Synod already got a huge dose of this sort of treatment in its recent disrespect towards Anglo-Catholics—want to see exactly how to be just like TEC?  Coming soon to an Anglican “church” near you, Britain and the world…

[31] Posted by Passing By on 07-16-2008 at 02:47 PM • top

To PageantMaster and ALL my Friends in the UK.

May I offer my humblest and most devout apologies to you for the chaos wrought by the American Wing of the Anglican Communion’s Official Instrument, The Episcopal Church. 

I realize, as do all my orthodox brothers and sisters, that the presence of our “representatives” presents challenge and issue for your domestic tranquility.  I wish I could more for you than just apologize, but as they don’t seem to care about the orthodox a whit, my influence has waned a bit at this point.

And, if you could somehow convince the authorities that they are all “persons of interest” in some investigation or other and detain them for a bit…we’d be most greatful!  Just a thought.

Bar the door and lock the window.  Little is sacred to most of them. 

Good Luck! and KTF!...mrb

[32] Posted by Mike Bertaut on 07-16-2008 at 02:50 PM • top

I wonder if the Bishop has contracted with these folks. http://www.celeb4aday.com/Home.html

[33] Posted by Going Home on 07-16-2008 at 02:56 PM • top

#22, looking at the size of the bedrooms you can see why! (see 40 secs in)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExUQfufoc0U

[34] Posted by Observing on 07-16-2008 at 03:02 PM • top

let the show begin…Have you ever just waited for something to be over..and the money spent and to be spent in the process…this one is certain to go down in history; but then God is still in control, He just might have a few surprises/miracles for us over the next few weeks.

[35] Posted by ewart-touzot on 07-16-2008 at 03:11 PM • top

GA/FL… actually, that’s “Carey writes…”  wink

[36] Posted by Greg Griffith on 07-16-2008 at 03:13 PM • top

#20 Karen B, #30 teatime and #32 Mike Bertaut - bless you and thank you for your prayers for our church.

[37] Posted by Pageantmaster on 07-16-2008 at 04:07 PM • top

Amen,cityonahill, (#29).  Living day to day, it’s easy to forget that He is in charge, and there is no doubt as to the outcome.

[38] Posted by ct layperson on 07-16-2008 at 04:30 PM • top

To #9—At least H. Clinton and Pelosi try to look female!!

[39] Posted by helpmelord on 07-16-2008 at 05:27 PM • top

RE: Just a quick note: Extremely unlikely that Gene Robinson has paid a dime of that $70,000 security tab.

True, G, but he also didn’t turn it down or re-direct it.  We know it came from his fan club.  I doubt his diocese could afford it.

It’s stuff like this that makes the Gospel of the MDGs shine as so much tripe.  Between this garbage and the PB’s lawsuits, their Social Justice mission is as hollow as their theology.

[40] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 07-16-2008 at 05:28 PM • top

It is no coincidence that the scourging of Jesus’s body immediately followed Pontius Pilate asking, “What is truth?”  I believe Pilate listened with great respect and diligence.  If the conference proceeds as planned, all will listen with great respect and diligence, and the result will be the same.
I’ve seen the press list.  By a very conservative estimate, the revisionist press outnumber the orthodox press by 4:1—6:1 may well be more accurate. 
May God have mercy.

Dear Heavenly Father, 
Pour Your blessings down upon all the media covering Lambeth Conference, in good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over.  Amen.

[41] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 07-16-2008 at 06:54 PM • top

Jill, from my experience, the far left are dependent on framing and redefining everything to suit their own agenda. So, when I read that Lambeth will be a “listening” conference, I am left with no other option than to believe that there won’t be give and take. It will be one side talking at the other. There is nothing Christian about this format, in fact, they’d pillory Christ were he to appear in their midst.

[42] Posted by mari on 07-16-2008 at 08:55 PM • top

WESTERN UNION TELEGRAM
17-JULY-2008 :::
FROM CHRISTIAN ANGLICAN WORLD :::
TO LAMBETH CONFERENCE :::
MESSAGE :::   
URGENT :::
LAMBETH MESSAGE MUST AGREE WITH SCRIPTURE OR CANTERBURY COMMUNION WILL BE IRREVELANT STOP
AWAIT YOUR REPLY STOP
:::

[43] Posted by Theodora on 07-17-2008 at 05:49 AM • top

#43, would substitute DEAD for IRRELEVANT.  Otherwise, this is right on the money.  Hope someone has already sent same to Lambeth Palace.

[44] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 07-17-2008 at 06:04 AM • top

Indeed, Pageantmaster, lock up the silver and hide your sons and daughters.  We live with these people.  We know.

I know one of the bishops now locked up in the compound with the radicals.  I wonder who will be in his small groups.  I wonder how he will cope.  May God help them all.

[45] Posted by Katherine on 07-17-2008 at 06:28 AM • top

#24 ga/fl
Is there a website that is posting a list of those signing on to GAFCON? I’ve been looking for it and can’t find one. I do hope your right but I like others wonder just where those of us who are anglo-catholic fit in. Sorry if this is off topic.

[46] Posted by bob+ on 07-17-2008 at 07:16 AM • top

#46,  Check with The Ugley Vicar…he had a
list of parishes in the UK that signed…

[47] Posted by Floridian on 07-17-2008 at 08:37 AM • top

#46 bob+
Try here

[48] Posted by TLDillon on 07-17-2008 at 08:45 AM • top

#44, I agree.  It’s already irrelevant.

[49] Posted by Geosez on 07-17-2008 at 08:54 AM • top

How about providing us with all the phone numbers for the American bishops so that we can keep all the lines busy letting them know that we are praying for them.

[50] Posted by BobC on 07-17-2008 at 04:51 PM • top

BobC, that’s a good idea!

[51] Posted by oscewicee on 07-17-2008 at 04:53 PM • top

Bob C, it is a great idea.  Although I might be tempted to give Chane a piece of my mind.
With half of the TEC bishops going on sabbatical after this is over, I wonder how many of those vacant sees we can fill before they get back.

[52] Posted by tjmcmahon on 07-17-2008 at 05:00 PM • top

Definition of “paranoid.”  See ‘Evangelical Anglicans’

[53] Posted by oikoshi on 07-17-2008 at 07:24 PM • top

Definition of troll ...?

[54] Posted by oscewicee on 07-17-2008 at 07:30 PM • top

tjmcmahon, I have a Catholic friend that once made a game out of “claiming” sees by sitting on the cathedras of bishops.  According to Consider he’s also SWAT and ex-specops, I bet he could get into the National Cathedral and capture Chane’s see.

[55] Posted by AndrewA on 07-17-2008 at 07:31 PM • top

That should say “Considering that he is SWAT and ex-SpecOps, I’ll bet that he could…”

[56] Posted by AndrewA on 07-17-2008 at 07:33 PM • top

As a priest living in New Hampshire (though not canonically), I can affirm that Bp. Robinson is right in saying that New Hampshire is beyond the sex issue.  Those of us who disagree with him have had it made clear to us that we are not welcome to serve within the diocese.

[57] Posted by onesimus on 07-18-2008 at 08:20 AM • top

#57. TEC is not really about inclusivity, it is about inclusiviness. There is room for all of us inside the big blue tent. Just so long as you can make it past the security guards and over the seven foot tall steel wire fence. And you remember to keep your mouth shut and pay attention to the Listening Process.

The Episcopal Church: Cheap Grace, Cheap Faith, Cheap Good Works. My church has been taken over by Dollar General.

[58] Posted by Matthew A (formerly mousestalker) on 07-18-2008 at 08:26 AM • top

$70K on personal protection?  When the police cannot find a credible threat?  When numerous lay and ordained messengers for Christ go out into some very hostile parts of the globe, without protection, to spread the Gospel?  What am I missing here?

[59] Posted by KAY4 on 07-20-2008 at 10:11 AM • top

KAY4, a sense of reality?

[60] Posted by oscewicee on 07-20-2008 at 10:35 AM • top

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