Archbishop of Sudan Press Briefing:  Gene Robinson Should Resign

Really, one must read the whole thing.  It’s rather incredible:

“This issue of homosexuality in the Anglican Communion has a very serious effect in my country.  We are called ‘infidels’ by the Moslems.  That means that they will do whatever they can against us to keep us from damaging the people of our country.  They challenge our people to convert to Islam and leave the infidel Anglican Church.  When our people refuse, sometimes they are killed.  These people are very evil and mutilate and harm our people.  I am begging the Communion on this issue so no more of my people will be killed.

I wonder if ENS will report that the Archbishop of the Sudan says that having Gene Robinson as Bishop causes Anglicans to die at the hands of Muslim terrorists.  I’m guessing not, because the report also indicates that the TEC church press practically laughed during the Archbishop’s statements.  If this doesn’t demonstrate the appalling self-absorption of the Episcopal Left in North America, nothing does.

It is about time somebody said this:

We will not talk to Gene Robinson or listen to him or his testimony.  He has to confess, receive forgiveness and leave.  Then we will talk.  You cannot bring the listening to gay people to our Communion. People who do not believe in the Bible are left out of our churches, not invited in to tell us why they don’t believe.

I’m sure ++Bul must be a fine example of the premodern church. Unlike the modern and postmodern churches of England and America. What a horrible and condescending way to describe things, made clear from the reaction of the TEC press.

The funny thing is I have more respect for Gene Robinson than I do for Rowan Williams. Although I think the stance Gene Robinson has taken on homosexual practice is misguided, wrong, and in contrary to God’s word at least he is standing up for what he believes is the right. And, although I think that the homosexuality is just the tip of the iceberg in the Anglican Crisis at least it is a clear cut issue. Either the orthodox point of view is right that homosexual practice is contrary to God’s word or it is wrong and we should embrace Gene Robinson’s beliefs. Thanks be to God for the leadership and courage shown at Lambeth by the Sudanese church.

“When asked if he knows any gay people in the Sudan he replied, “They have not come to the surface.  We do not have them.”  The press from TEC that were in the room did not laugh out loud at this statement, but nearly.”

How sad, that there are gay people in Sudan who are probably afraid for their lives, and therefore are unwilling to come out. 
I think TEC should send a group of prominent GLBT clergy to the Sudan and open a dialogue with the government and with the local Imams.  This would undoubtedly have quite an effect on the American Church!

Also note that the Anglican Communion News Bureau “would not schedule a time” for this Archbishop of the Sudan to speak to the press.  So he just showed up and did so anyway.  Good for him.  And quite telling.  He’s obviously not going to be forced to shut up, and it doesn’t sound like he’s in much mood for comprise about the bigger issues, much less the press conference.

I thank God for this Archbishop of the Sudan. Perhaps if it is indeed true that the Anglican Church located in the Sudan has seen the “last American dollar”—as mentioned in this article—it is so that other Christian organizations will see the need and give. I think he has made the Christian Way very clear and in that he fulfills the instructions of Our Lord Jesus.

“When asked if he knows any gay people in the Sudan he replied, “They have not come to the surface.  We do not have them.”

I commend the press from TEC for keeping a straight face. It would have been very hard to do!

So ... let me get this…; Some who post here are okay with the idea that someone who does not know a single gay or lesbian person can make statements like these and be lauded for his defense of orthodoxy? And you see nothing wrong with that…?

IMHO…maybe he needs to enlarge his list of acquaintances, or open his eyes…he comes across as poster child for someone in need of the “litsening process”! 

Blessings

seraph

Ugh.  They suckered him into saying the same thing that President Ahmadinejad said in New York City about gay people in his country: “...we don’t have any.”

You know that some smug liberal thought it’d be hilarious to do that.

Someone should—

<smacked down by the Holy Spirit>

Ok, ok.  I should pray for charity in my heart for my theological opponents (is “enemies” too harsh of a word for these folks?), and we should all pray for His Grace, ++Sudan, as he contends for the Faith.

Exactly what would happen if gay or lesbian persons came forward, in public, and declared their lifestyles in the cultural climate of the Sudan? Wouldn’t they be harrassed or worse or are the Christians the only infidels?

Seraph,
Life in the Sudan is not a Will and Grace rerun.  People there are focused on life or death issues.  They do not need to expand their circle of friends so that people in this country can feel better about who they are sleeping with.

A wonderful message by this brave man. we know he is being laughed at as being backward & yes I understand he is well educated, but didn’t Jesus speak to the most simple & get more acceptance than the elitely educated of his day.

Seraph,
Your understanding of the situation in the Sudan seems rather uneven.  One word from the Good Bishop that he knows homosexuals and the Muslims will be all over it, saying “See, we told you they are all demons!”  So it doesn’t exist.  And, from my Peace Corps understanding, it is not that homosexual acts don’t happen.  No one, however, self-identifies as homosexual.  To do so in that environment is suicide.  The homosexual culture does not exist.  It was that way 20 years ago and I assume it is even worse today.

Gee, Seraph, I can’t imagine why, if Sudanese Anglicans are being murdered on the grounds that other Anglicans merely support the gay agenda, that actual gay Sudanese wouldn’t be waiting in line to come out.

Please stop talking as if you were a moron.  It’s either false witness against yourself or detraction.

...Life in the Sudan is not a Will and Grace rerun.  People there are focused on life or death issues.  They do not need to expand their circle of friends so that people in this country can feel better about who they are sleeping with

Dear NBS..
Should their own issues of life and death not be their focus at Lambeth? Or is it sermonizing from a position of relative ignorance about who people in the US should be sleeping with?
blessings
Seraph

Seraph,
Since many on the left see Sudan (and the rest of Africa with the possible exception of South Africa) as “pre-modern” and you insist that Scritpure cannot speak of homosexuality since the term “homosexual” did not exist until modern times, then +Bul (and the rest of the African Bishops) are correct - there are no homosexuals in Africa.  In their “premodern” woldview, homosexuality does not exist and so there is no such thing as a homosexual. 
Now, I would bet that +Bul would say that there are people who experience same sex attractions, but they are not homosexuals.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Being slanted can be fun!

Seraph, perhaps they believe God is the most important thing they know.

This is yet another sign that the shift in power from the Anglo-Saxon culture churches to the Global South is an exorable process.  When Nigeria and Uganda and Kenya and Rwanda don’t come, suddenly another great African province rises up and fills the void left by their absence.  The Post-Colonial era of Anglicanism is beginning, and the ramifications of this momentous change are incalculable.

Way to go, ++Daniel Deng Bul.  Marvelous.  Simply marvelous.

There is no province that is as vulnerable as Sudan, beset as it is by a level of poverty and illiteracy and facing a relentless, ruthless persecution by fanatical Muslims that is unimaginable to us in the industrialized West.  There is no province that TEC has tried to bribe and buy so blatantly and to woo and court so eagerly.  But it was all in vain.  Thanks be to God.

We have waited a long time for the Sudanese to speak out.  But they finally have.  And Wow, what a dramatic time to do so.  What an admirable display of raw courage and strong faith.  “When the going gets tough,” when the pressure is on, the real character of a person or organization comes out.  And it just did for the ECOS, the Episcopal Church of Sudan, which just made a bold and powerful play in this high stakes game.

I’m thrilled.  Just thrilled.  A true successor of the apostles has spoken.

David Handy+

Seraph,
The Archbishop says quite clearly that Anglicans in the Sudan ARE MURDERED because of what Anglicans IN THE WEST do and say:

“This issue of homosexuality in the Anglican Communion has a very serious effect in my country.  We are called ‘infidels’ by the Moslems.  That means that they will do whatever they can against us to keep us from damaging the people of our country.  They challenge our people to convert to Islam and leave the infidel Anglican Church.  When our people refuse, sometimes they are killed.  These people are very evil and mutilate and harm our people.  I am begging the Communion on this issue so no more of my people will be killed.

If you are liberal church activist in the West sleep on that, because you are directly responsible.

No one, however, self-identifies as homosexual.  To do so in that environment is suicide.  The homosexual culture does not exist.

It’s not “who you are”, it’s what you do.  100% Behavioral there. 

Hate the sin, love the sinner.  Only in the wealthy west do we define our personal identies by our bedroom (and elsewhere) behaviours.

First I would point out that I do not know a single murderer but I know that murder is wrong.  I don’t know a single person engaged in incest but I know that it is wrong.  I know quite a few sinners, liars, thieves, slanderers and gossipers and my love for each of them (including me) does not supercede or change the Word of God. 
And those of you who are bemoaning the violence against gays - please, please read carefully.  The violence is not coming from the Muslims.  I also took his words about “not having” gays in his church to follow on his words that they “have not come to the surface” meaning they are not in your face Integrity types.  We all do well to remember the acts and the person are two different things.

People are not gay or lesbian or homosexual or heterosexual for that matter.  It is a mistake(instrumentalism) of recent origin that defines a person by their desires.  It’s quite accurate in any culture to say that one does not know any gay persons.

Seraph how would meeting and knowing a homosexual change their acts from sinful to blessed?

All of us sin, being good people does not change that.  Having some superficial good come from a sinful act does not make it good.  If someone brings millions to Jesus, feeds all the hungry, lifts up all the poor, and has a loving monogamous life with someone of the same sex who makes them happy, any homosexual acts are still sins.

One does not have to know a homosexual to know homosexual acts are sins.  God decides what are sins, not people.  He knows what is best for us even (especially) when we don’t.  Knowing someone who is tempted by homosexual acts may help understand them or sympathize with them, but it does not change the fact that their homosexual acts are sins.

The Archbishop says quite clearly that Anglicans in the Sudan ARE MURDERED because of what Anglicans IN THE WEST do and say:,If you are liberal church activist in the West sleep on that, because you are directly responsible

Right ...like human rights and genocide did not happen in Sudan until after +Gene….dream on!

We have waited a long time for the Sudanese to speak out.  But they finally have.  And Wow, what a dramatic time to do so.  What an admirable display of raw courage and strong faith.  “When the going gets tough,” when the pressure is on, the real character of a person or organization comes out

Is it courage to speak up about homosexuality in Lambeth surrounded by brother bishops, a sympatheric conservative crowd, while spending the liberals money..?  i would think it would be to address human rights issues, including those of homosexuals in his own society. I just have to wonder whether courage and standing up for truth is the driving reason OR wether it is fear of reprisal from intolerant opressors back home ....

So what is your proposal ! That Christians in free societies allow such intolerance and fanaticism determine our conviccions and impede our questions and conversation!!! Something is deeply wrong with that idea… church politics make stange bedfellows!
blessings
Seraph

Ummm.. seraph, that “liberals’ money” you mentioned.. those monies are contributed by all the peoples of TEC, not just the liberal faction. The people who make up the congregations do not donate so it can be used as mad money for Schori or her minions, but to do good Christian works. Nor is it Christian to use those contributions for coercion. Sorry, but that needed to be said.

Speaking the truth to power.  Where have I heard that before?  Seems to be rather unpopular, though.  At least with the cognoscenti and seraph.

Seraph,
Would you suggest that we continue to let our secular culture determine what is considered sinful in the Church?

I submit that your desire to hold the funds to feed the poor our house the homeless or help with famine or spread the Good News of God in Christ if a Bishop strongly disagrees with what you now call blessed is nothing short of the imperialistic attitude that many despise America for.  It is nothing but a “I’ll take my marbles and go home if you won’t play by my rules!”  Of course that statement fits with the “You’re not the boss of me!” attitude of TECUSA today.

I have news for you.  We need to realize that they are indeed “the boss of us.”  That is what is meant by mutual submission.  We need to open our ears and our hearts to hear what our brothers and sisters around the world are pleading with us to do.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

Seraph, my proposal is that Anglicans in the West comport with basic Christian norms as they have existed for 2000+ years.  That would help the Sudanese not to be, well, murdered.  And it would do wonders for rest of us too. 

But apparently, it is just too much to ask.

I submit that your desire to hold the funds to feed the poor our house the homeless or help with famine or spread the Good News of God in Christ if a Bishop strongly disagrees with what you now call blessed is nothing short of the imperialistic attitude that many despise America for.  It is nothing but a “I’ll take my marbles and go home if you won’t play by my rules!” Of course that statement fits with the “You’re not the boss of me!” attitude of TECUSA today.

FYI…I happen to agree with the stament below.

Archbishop Deng Bul was accompanied by his Canon, the Rev. Francis Loyo.  As they left the pressroom, the Rev. Dr. Charles Robertson, Canon to the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, said he had a short statement.  He clarified that the Episcopal Church has had a positive relationship with the Sudan for many years and has been there with the intention of making a difference.  They have succeeded in doing that.  The Episcopal Church expects to continue that relationship and continue to bring the Good News of Jesus Christ to the people of the Sudan, finding a way to move forward from yesterday’s statement.  Canon Robertson declined to answer questions.

This seems a lot more charitable than “....“We will not talk to Gene Robinson or listen to him or his testimony.  He has to confess, receive forgiveness and leave.  Then we will talk….”

Blessings

Seraph

Archbishop Deng Bul believes that VGR is an unrepentant sinner.  Given that he believe this, the only charitable thing to do is to encourage him to confess and receive forgiveness.  To do any less would write his soul off and not respect his dignity.  Caring enough about someone to challenge them to be a better person is charitable.

Seraph, my proposal is that Anglicans in the West comport with basic Christian norms as they have existed for 2000+ years.  That would help the Sudanese not to be, well, murdered.  And it would do wonders for rest of us too.

Well, sure ...the whole murdered thing is just very distressing! Maybe it would be a good idea to turn back the clock and practice the oldtime norms! Some do miss good old days where it was okay to own slaves, women were safely silent, veiled and hopefully in the kitchen pregnant, divorcees were pariahs, there was no remarriage, the rhythm method was effective for family planning, the pope ruled Christendom ... and there were no homosexuals…sure!
blessings

Seraph

#29, it was RIGHT for them to say they would not talk to Gene Robinson. All he would say to them is how he’s been so victimized by the people who disagree with him. He would do nothing but whine. The bottom line is that God gave Gene his cross and he’s refusing to carry it. As Christians, we are NOT to listen to listen to rationalization for sin. We are to turn away from sin and follow God’s commands. The Sudanese are asking Gene to do that. Once Gene does that, then they would open their hearts to him and help him find God’s TRUE power of healing. As long as Gene insists on promoting what he’s doing as not sinful, then he will never have the opportunity discover the wonder and joy of God’s TRUE healing.

I heard the Zacchaeus Society from Canada was supposed to be at Lambeth. If they are there, they would be the best people to speak to Gene. They have such wonderful testimony of their own deep healing from God. THAT’s what Gene needs to hear. If only TEC would just stop promoting Gene’s sin and set him free to experience such TRUE healing as God gives.

I pray for his soul. I pray for him to find the strength and courage to TRULY come to God and let HIM heal his wounds. Only God can!!!!

#24 I think it take at least as much courage for the Bishop of Sudan to speak up at Lambeth as it does for anyone of your homosexualist friends to speak up about gay right in the US or the EU. The archbishop has to go back home to an environment that none of us can imagine. Seriously, how much courage has +Gene shown by speaking at liberal churches, or spending $70,000.00 on security for what he says are death threats. I wonder if he has had the presence of mind to, Oh I don’t know, CONTACT THE POLICE, RECORD THE THREATS. This man is such a coward he cannot even enable comments on his blog. Please give me a break.

I have seldom, if ever, been so shocked as I am now to see some on this thread making themselves complicit in the martyrdom of some of the Sudanese Christians. It is nothing short of that, and it shows how far people can sink morally and spiritually when they start with one sin that leads on to this kind of denial of the fatal consequences to others of their actions.

#21,#25 beat me to it. Sometimes I wonder, do revisionists sincerely think this way, or is it meant as baiting? Isn’t it hypocritical to insist on fallacious standards that they themselves don’t believe in or follow.

Mugsie1 (#32),

There are other ex-gay ministries represented at the Lambeth gathering too, including Redeemed Lives, led by Fr. Mario Bergner.  And I think Peter Ould is there too.

Relax, folks,and don’t let seraph dominate this thread.  This is a time for celebration.  The third or fourth largest province in the AC has finally left the bench and gone out onto the playing field.  They are a very young church, but a vibrant and rapidly growing one, despite intense persecution. 

Allow me to correct a horrible typo in my earlier post #18.  What I intended to say was that this dramatic speech by ++Daniel Deng Bul is another sign that the steady shift in power from the North Atlantic countries with an Anglo-Saxon culture to the Global South in the AC is an INEXORABLE process.  It’s unstoppable, given the undeniable and profound change in the demographics of the Communion.  The liberal, disobedient churches of the decadent West are withering and dying; the faithful, obedient churches of the Global South are thriving and growing, despite all obstacles.

Anglicanism is truly coming of age.  We are beginning to see and reap the fruits of the emergence of the Global South into the positions of leadership that they deserve.  GAFCON represented that reality very clearly.  This costly statement and dramatic intervention by the leader of the heroic Episcopal Church of Sudan is one more sign that a Post-Colonial era is beginning in Anglicanism.  How exciting!

David Handy+

Right ...like human rights and genocide did not happen in Sudan until after +Gene….dream on!

Uh, do you deny that TEC’s activism a la VGR has called attention to homosexuals and put them at increased risk? That TEC’s stirring the pot and forcing everyone to be out and about is insensitive to the real pressures and dangers with which Christians in Africa have to live, in the face of a Muslim majority or government?

Perhaps if TEC would be quit their grandstanding on gays, the church COULD help address other serious problems and suffering groups in Africa.

David Handy+,

Thanks so much for the uplifting words…. I cannot help but be encouraged and heartened by the strong words of this Bishop, and others at Lambeth, and am feeling glimmers of real hope that Lambeth won’t be a complete bust!

The VGR phenomenon of today was described in a 1930s context by the Rev. Frank Gavin of Anglican Missal fame:
http://anglicanhistory.org/usa/fgavin/tract12.html

“The Internet is the greatest boon to learning since the invention of moveable type,” said an official of the American Library Association a few years ago.

“Issues of faith cannot be mixed with materialism.”

One of the best answers I have ever heard, and that’s a fact.

Anyway, I like how one of the reoccuring complaints is that the Indaba groups aren’t solving anything.

...wait for it…

...WELL DUH!!!

We knew that going into the conference.

Yours in Christ,
jacob

“Issues of faith cannot be mixed with materialism.”

This is a reminder that Jesus drove the moneychangers from the Temple, Mark 11:16 -17

seraph, you prove our points for us. You do not feel Christian love and compassion for the Sudanese, the cold, hard truths the Sudanese bishop pointed out are treated as a joke by you.

Isn’t it also a sign that what you advocate for, is a turning back the clock? Of course there have been those who have only given lip service to the faith, but you demand the right to impose the same hypocrisies. Your contempt shows that you consider those African Anglicans, and in fact all of us as less thans, as those from the past who favor caste and slavery systems did. Your own version of keeping others chained to the equalent of barefoot and pregnant? Where those faithful to the scriptures are treated as pariahs?

Speaking of seraphs.. the bible reminds us that Lucifer was once an angel until he fell from grace.

And Seraph, when you type “blessings” at the end of your posts….exactly what does that mean?

So ... let me get this…; Some who post here are okay with the idea that someone who does not know a single gay or lesbian person can make statements like these and be lauded for his defense of orthodoxy?

Read it again, Seraph.  He says he does not know any BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT COME FORWARD.
To come out as a gay person in the Sudan, or anywhere that Muslims are in the majority, is to pronounce a death sentence on yourself. Go to You Tube and search on “Gays Iran.” Watch gays being hung, and shot in the head.  This isn’t whiny victimhood, this isn’t VGR death threats.  This is murder writ large, and not only is your church not doing a d*mn thing about it, your church is actually making it worse.

Y’all need to stop dogging on Seraph.  It makes no sense to demand compassion and then not give it. 

Seraph, why are you being so inflammatory?  Are you trying to debate intelligently or derail the discussion so that nothing good can be accomplished. 

As for the topic at hand, I am very impressed to see this young archbishop take a stand like this.  I applaud him.  I wish that the other African archbishops had not boycotted.  Their voices need to be heard at Lambeth like ++Bul’s.

#44 Pilgrim
And the TEC Staff laughed at the picture of a homosexual being afraid for his life to identify himself as one.  Either they are stupid or, as I’ve thought for some time, not at all interested in homosexual persons as persons, but only as people to step on as they move toward their higher objective.

Is it courage to speak up about homosexuality in Lambeth surrounded by brother bishops, a sympatheric conservative crowd, while spending the liberals money..?

It’s not the liberals’ money, it’s God’s money.  Much of it was given by people, living or dead, who believed (mistakenly, as it now appears)that it would be used to promote Christianity instead of secular political ideologies.

You’re spot on, James Manley.

#32, given how stubborn this gentleman seems to be (God has already sent a woman to him and that didn’t work), and how he seems to be absolutely certain that his actions are not only correct but also directed by God (a spectacular example of a false discernment of spirits, by the way), one wonders whether it would take a bona fide theophany for him to see the Light. Perhaps that can be arranged.

Without that, one fears that he has gone too far. Yes, salvation is still possible, always possible, but when one is far from the Light it’s hard to find it again without asking for help. I fear he doesn’t know what he needs to ask for.

Scripture gives us examples of Jesus helping some people who didn’t ask for help - because their friends or family DID ask. So, maybe we might pray for that theophany. If it ever happens, one would also pray that he will have substantial spiritual and psychological support, loving and caring support - because were he to become aware of the gravity of his sins, their weight would utterly destroy him.

No, I don’t know any “gay people”, either. I know quite a few inherently good human beings who have chosen homosexual practice to the exclusion of Christian Marriage, and who have also chosen to believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong about that.

I, for one, am not demanding compassion.  I am asking for a modicum of common sense, and an end to the hypocrisy of bemoaning the alleged “attacks” on a gay Nigerian (Davis Maciyallah) and snickering at the very real deaths of hundreds of Sudanese Christians; both gay and straight.

Thank you, Pilgrim.  I was thinking the “sauce for the goose” line myself - when people accuse Akinola of violence because of his words, that’s OK - it’s actually a rallying point and some sort of response to almost anything they don’t like to hear. 
When an orthodox bishop makes similar claims, he’s just blowing smoke, and we have to pick apart his other comments.  Yeah, inclusive, thanks guys!

Alms for Sudan.

Seraph, post 24: You ask

“Is it courage to speak up about homosexuality in Lambeth surrounded by brother bishops, a sympatheric conservative crowd, while spending the liberals money..?”

I don’t believe that many Episcopalian Church members, who contribute to their church, realize that their contributions are considered “liberals money”.
It seems to me that it is the liberals who run the Episcopal Church who should have the “courage” to inform Episcopal Church members that they consider our contributions “liberals money”.
At one time I was naive enough to believe that I was contributing to a Christian Church for the spread of the Gospel and Christian Charity, but now I have my doubts and try to act accordingly.

Seraph,
  How bold it is for liberals to get up in front of people & lead them to damnation.

John the Baptist wasn’t very popular during his time as evidenced be Herod’s reaction. The money changers didn’t exactly have a banner day when Christ drove them from the temple did they? 
Often our indignation at the truth is an outward manifestation our our rebellion against God, becoming angry when the Holy Spirt speaks to us about thing that disrupt our wordly pleasure.

I just happened to be reading the book “The Looming Tower” by Lawrence Wright at the time that Archbishop of the Sudan, the Most Reverend Dr. Daniel Deng Bul, had his press conference, I believe that if others read this book they could understand the frustration that the Bishop of Sudan must endure when confronted by shallow people who are determined to concentrate on personal sexuality while his country and other countries are experiencing the oppression of Islamist terrorists.
I didn’t realize that Osama bin Laden and his wives had lived in Sudan and that he had carried out many of his operations from there. The Bishops at Lambeth could be enlightened if they listen to the Archbishop of Sudan as well as they listen to Lesbians and Gays.
I pray that the Anglican Communion will not fail us by succumbing to a compulsion to define everything in terms of so called sexual identity, our identity as Christians should be more important than our sexual identity and we are under attack by those in al-Qaeda who may know us better than we know ourselves.