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Live Blog of “African Voices” sponsored by Integrity and Changing Attitude

Wednesday, July 30, 2008 • 5:18 am

Tuesday July 29th, 2008 2:00pm


I am sitting in a medium sized lecture hall with a rainbow flag draped over the chalkboard in the front. We entered between two African men in traditional dress beating drums. The back rows were full, several bishops, many more people I recognize as Integrity and CA workers including that defrocked Ugandan bishop, and a few press scattered here and there. Steve Waring came in behind me. Seeing that we were without a seat, the nice man in the front gestured for us to have a seat in the first row, directly in front of Davis MacaIllaya who sits, first in a row of seats, facing the half full lecture hall.

A tall African man with a British accent has now taken the floor. He welcomes us and gives his name

I am Dean Rowan Smith, Dean of St. George’s Cathedral, Cape Town South Africa.

I am a gay man, I’ve come out openly to my family and my church. In 1994 during the discussion of homosexuality in South Africa, I said “we” must stand up for “our” rights. A reporter heard me and quoted me and I read and asked publicly what that meant. I woke up the next morning and saw the report and said “oh no”.

Laughter

Having heard the introduction from the drummers, I will ask Queen to stand and lead us in prayer.

Queen prays

Dean Smith: In 1978, 1988, 1998, the discussion of homosexuality in the communion took place in various levels. In 1998 the tone changed from one that spoke of interaction and relationship with gay and lesbian people and the tone became harsh. At the same time, well in 1988, there was denial that aides existed in Africa on the part of African church leaders. In a few years time, they accepted the fact that it existed in Africa and in the African church
. The same was true about the actual existence of homosexuality. It was denied that it was there. I am African but I have a European accent so it was denied that I was truly African.

I have a green card that identifies me during Apartheid (I think he said, “as a gay man” but I could not understand that part of what he was saying)

Dean Smith introduces the speakers. There are five of them in addition to Davis MacIllaya. We are told that they will each “tell their stories”.

Ijoma: I am studying to be a priest. I am from the diocese of London. As I feel that I can only minister to those who have AIDS if I live in their context. I come from a conservative background but I decided that I needed to listen to their experiences about what it is like to be African and to be LGBT. Fiver or six years ago I would not be standing here. I wanted God to speak to me. He did and he led me to be hear supporting these people. I am here to listen again and to lend my support.


She gives a rather long reading from Frances Young “Brokenness and blessing”

The first person who will be speaking this afternoon does not exits if you were to read the Province of Nigeria website

Davis MacIllaya will tell you about himself and why he is so passionate about this cause for human rights.

Davis: I am the director for now of Changing Attitudes Nigeria. It is important to tell you that this is a branch of an English organization. Today I am not only sharing a little of my story but I am also going to tell you some part of the story of what does exist in Africa and what is taking place in Africa. It is important to thank the UK government for granting me asylum and creating a safe place for me to continue my work for LGBT Anglicans in Africa, not just Nigeria.,

My story started in 2005 when I became aware that there was a listening process and that Nigeria was not taking part in it. Even though I was Baptized, Confirmed and grew up in the church was a licensed lay reader, I had no idea what was going on in the Communion. When I discovered the listening process from a conversation with Colin Coward in 2005, I discovered that my leaders were telling the world something that is not true.

My Archbishop and the spiritual fathers of the province have said that Homosexuality is unknown to Africa, that it is alien.

There real thing that is alien and unknown to Africa is Christianity. If you ask me how this is true, I will tell you that God has been existing in Africa before western missionaries came to us with the bible. My people worship God through Akasso(sp.?) and the true Akasso communicated with God before Christianity came with the bible.

But that is not all that was here. Homosexuality existed before the westerners came with the bible. It as the missionaries with the bible who told the people that they could not do what they were already doing.

Before the missionaries, we did not know the bible. The stranger in Africa is not the homosexual it is the bible. Before that, there was homosexuality.

In my context we had names to identify homosexual relationships. It is called “supe”(sp.) . When you go to the west of Nigeria, we have men who serve as wives to other men. In such a relationships the people are called “Bowo” (sp?). When you go to the Muslim north you have more gay Muslims than there are gay Christians

Laughter

In the north there is a common language Auosa(sp?). When you say “———“(missed the word) you are referring to same sex relationships. These are the words used in local Nigerian languages.

The ship that brought Christianity to Africa did not bring these words. We knew homosexuality before the westerners came. They need to tell the truth that it is actually Christianity that is the stranger to Africa.


I was surprised that there are actually so many gay Christians in Africa. With Colin’s help I began to organize Changing Attitudes Nigeria. The church, when they discovered this at our first successful meeting on the 28th of December, the church called me a liar. The church said that I am evil, not gay, that I am not an Anglican and all of this to rubbish my image.

My problem started on the 28th of December 2005 and still continues to day. The idea is that when you attack the leaders others will be afraid to speak the truth.

I am in danger that is why I am in the UK. There are many out there in Nigeria being suppressed by the actions of the Nigerian church.

Dean Rowan taps the lecture hall desk lightly, which is the “time is up” signal and Davis sits down abruptly. A woman, seated next to him, facing the lecture, hall stands and reads from a text. She does not seem to have a good grasp of English and her remarks must have been typed up for her, but it is still a little difficult to understand what she is saying:

Flavia: I am from the all Africa Women’s Group, We are called a grass roots group we are very glad to be here and have the opportunity to speak against the violence that gays and lesbians face. I would give a brief presentation.

The Women’s Group is a self help group for women seeking asylum in the UK. Our group was formed in 2002. WE have some groups like the “black women’s action group” (?) and others who are based in the same place as we are.

We are a group that is helping asylum seekers. When we are there every women is welcomed.

(….missed a bit, unable to understand what she is saying)

Some of us have been raped because we were put on the streets, We come from different countries.

(Lists a number of African nations and then lists a number of middle-eastern and western nations)

Many of us have been politically active in our countries,

Like most women seeking asylum many of us are survivors of rape but we are not believed or if we are believed the cases are dismissed and we are not given asylum.

In Africa, lesbian women have been disbelieved about their homosexuality and told to be quiet about it. I myself have been detained even though the homosexuality has been accepted in my hometown. Nevertheless, I was detained. When I was detained, I was denied my education and it was stopped abruptly and since I was not educated all of this made me ill and confused.

I had a lawyer who my Aunt paid. They told me they were going to help me but it turned out not to be true. I do not remember what happened to me because I am not educated but it was very bad. Now I am waiting for my claim to be heard.

We want to congratulate Davis for winning his case. Some of have won but some are still waiting

We speak at conferences and carry out interviews with the media. People understand more when they hear directly from us and want to know how they can help. Students have started visiting women in detention and people have helped in a series of ways. Often church groups have stepped in to give us aid. We all have the right to be here. The world belongs to everyone.

Sukari: I am an LGBTI activist from Nigeria. I live in London. The two issues I want to address are:

1. We all have to be careful about racializing homophobia and thinking it just happens in Africa. We need to be careful about that. It happens in the west too.

2. On a positive note to say that I think most know that South Africa has protected LGBT people and Ethiopia is close behind. There are a number of LGBT associations working openly in a variety of nations.

The Nigerian government is in the process of making LGBT people illegal. Any advocacy for LGBT people will also be illegal. There will be evictions and expulsions from schools and people put in jail.

People are already being beaten, abused, raped and murdered with impunity. This even happens in South Africa where there are legal protections. At least 10 lesbians have been murdered there in the last year.

LGBT people live perilous lives moving from house to house. Last year several were outed in the press. If they are able to hide their sexuality they can work, if not they must move from place to place until people find out.

The need for emotional support is great as living with the burden of this kind of secret life is great.

Lesbians especially need help as they suffer from curative rape, public humiliation, beatings, being thrown out of family, out of church, thrown out by landlords, arrested by the police.

Transgender people are undressed publicly and humiliated. This one woman in Nigeria has been repeatedly beaten in public and in police stations over and over again.

There is much evidence of is behavior in Africa before Christianity. There has been a systematic covering up and blinding by leaders of the west. Both the African and western church need to take responsibility for that homophobia

One question that often arises is: What is the female identity?

In traditional African culture female on female touching and sexual experience was considered a normal part of life. We did not have a name for it. It was just done.

It was not until I came to the west that I came to find a name for was I was feeling.

There is a danger of putting homophobia as an African phenomenon. I am not sure whether the western people have been beaten or murdered.

Crowd: They have!

I do know that there are bishops and clergy in the west who are homophobic. It is not an African thing.

Finally I want to say something about organizing. We need to take the lead. We want you to sit down with us and listen to us but do not try to lead us. We know where we need to go and we would like your help and support but not direction.

...more coming


38 Comments • Print-friendlyPrint-friendly w/commentsShare on Facebook
Comments:

Matt, can you ask if this story is true?

If yes, can we really rely on anything presented by Davis MacaIllaya? Have any of the death threat emails from Nigerians with Canadian yahoo email addresses been investigated to confirm if those emails were really from angry Nigerians, from Church of Nigeria officials, or from gay rights groups intent on playing up a story?

Also, why was this blog message released now a day before the listening process tomorrow? Is it to get a story in the news, as so few people are now paying any attention to the overhyped gay rights news? Or because something is about to come out to really discredit the whole story? Something odd about the timing of this, unless it is designed to ensure that all the eggs are not placed in the Davis basket tomorrow, as that one may get dropped based on Davis’ history as private warnings have been ignored?

[1] Posted by Observing on 07-30-2008 at 04:35 AM • top

Excellent question, Observing.  I was just thinking of putting up the link I found to it on Virtue:
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=8749

when I saw you already have the URL linked.  It’s fairly useful information if accurate.

[2] Posted by TACit on 07-30-2008 at 04:46 AM • top

Wow - the level of detail in this account suggests first hand knowledge of events.

Whether Davis is speaking the truth or not (and I’m not in a position to judge) he seems to be an unreliable witness. I don’t mean that he is untruthful but that it is hard to know whether he is being truthful or not.

It’s also apparent that he was (and is?) being used by TEC. Twice before the Executive Council. Wow.

[3] Posted by driver8 on 07-30-2008 at 05:06 AM • top

Heh.

My favorite line is this:

“In traditional African culture female on female touching and sexual experience was considered a normal part of life. We did not have a name for it. It was just done.”

Yes, in traditional Scottish culture—one of my heritages—we painted our faces blue and bashed each other over the head.  It was considered a normal part of life.  We did not have a name for it.  It was just done.

In traditional Viking culture, they landed their ships on English shores and raided religious houses and plundered and raped and killed and carried people off to be slaves.  It was considered a normal part of life.  They did not have a name for it.  It was just done.

In traditional Mormon culture, they took multiple wives, sometimes quite young wives.  It was considered a normal part of life.  They did not have a name for it.  It was just done.

There are many many other “traditional cultures” who do many many different things that are considered “a normal part of life”.  They do not have names for those actions.  They are just done.

What any of that has to do with Christian culture, I don’t know, except that in Christian culture the things that God has called sinful behavior should not be done, and when they are done, they are repented of.

That’s our “traditional Christian culture” there.

[4] Posted by Sarah on 07-30-2008 at 05:29 AM • top

There was homosexuality in Africa before there was Christianity in Africa.
There was sin in the world before Jesus came.
duh.

[5] Posted by GillianC on 07-30-2008 at 05:32 AM • top

Anyone who knows of the Ugandan Martyrs (whom I hope will be mentioned at some point in the meeting being reported) knows that same sex desire existed in Africa prior to the missionaries arriving.

There’s a more complicated anthropological conversation about whether homosexuality (as a culturally constructed western identity) existed. Yet even if one can identify relevant similarities between same sex relationships and the Western construction of sexual identities then I don’t see how it would falsify the biblical witness.

Indeed it might strengthen it since, against those who argue that there was no knowledge of homosexual identity in the ancient world rather just a concern for active and passive partners, Gagnon has claimed that something akin to contemporary homosexual identity was indeed known in the Roman world and condemned by Paul. A cross cultural comparison from non western society, if true, slightly adds to Gagnon’s claim.

[6] Posted by driver8 on 07-30-2008 at 05:44 AM • top

I’d agree homosexuality was VERY much apart of traditional African culture, on June 3, we remember the 22 who broke with tradition.

[7] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 07-30-2008 at 05:48 AM • top

in traditional Scottish culture—one of my heritages—we painted our faces blue and bashed each other over the head.  It was considered a normal part of life.  We did not have a name for it.  It was just done.

After Greg’s confession of Welsh heritage, now this. Let me say, why am I not surprised? It’s almost too much for this Englishman to take.

[8] Posted by driver8 on 07-30-2008 at 05:53 AM • top

Sarah,

You mean the Scots have gone all soft and don’t do the blue paint thing anymore?  Wow, I’m the only traditionalist left.  Woad is me.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs

[9] Posted by gone on 07-30-2008 at 06:02 AM • top

You’ve obviously never been out in Glasgow before a Rangers/Celtic match.

[10] Posted by driver8 on 07-30-2008 at 06:08 AM • top

What a bizarre report. I await the verdict on its veracity. I may be misunderstanding it but it seems to be saying the man is gay, rude, sexually predatory and all about Jesus. And his prey must be protected from him. Is there room on the parish level for that? Other than a sign that says, “Doesn’t play well with children or adults that hold attraction for me”

[11] Posted by southernvirginia1 on 07-30-2008 at 06:21 AM • top

Davis MacIllaya and the others seem to be not converted to Christianity.  They are looking wistfully back to the good old pagan days in which people did things contrary to the Christian moral law and thought nothing of it.  It’s a point of view that has its place, but not in an Anglican Christian conference.

The dissonance here besides the Christian one is that African voices other than these often say that same-sex behavior is NOT accepted in African cultures, even in the ones holding to the old religions.

[12] Posted by Katherine on 07-30-2008 at 06:32 AM • top

As Katherine said, this does not sound at all like a Christian witness.  I think it sounds more like pawns being used by Integrity.

[13] Posted by Paul B on 07-30-2008 at 06:41 AM • top

I’m not sure what I think. My big question is, who is the “Queen” that prayed? Is that a kind of gay slur, the sort I might use in jest, or was Her Majesty present at an integrity meeting (please don’t tell me she is a…er…uhmmm…one of them). As to the rainbow flag, are you sure you were not at a Cursillo meeting gone very wrong, with someone dressed as a Rooster offering a prayer with a head of feathers looking like a crown? Obviously ToTo’s you are NOT in Kansas anymore, and I take it there are no Holiday Inn expresses…

[14] Posted by FrVan on 07-30-2008 at 06:45 AM • top

I think it may be that we often forget that traditional African cultures are just as multi layered and complex as ours. Thus one imagines, there may be social space for same sex desire at some points of life and in some contexts and at the same time powerful social disapproval in others. One imagines too that transgressive subcultures exist in some traditional African contexts - whilst at the same time being disapproved of. It’s certainly the case in India - eunuchs exist, and in a sense are a subculture, but are also feared and strongly disapproved of.

[15] Posted by driver8 on 07-30-2008 at 06:47 AM • top

You’re right, driver8, and in Arab cultures too there have often been ways for men to indulge in same-sex behavior.  Where women were guarded and caravans long, young boys often were taken along for the purpose.  This was not viewed as “homosexual” as an identity, which is strongly disapproved.  The Christian insistence that sex is for marriage only, that men can have only one wife and no concubines, and that men as well as women are expected to avoid adultery, is a step apart from these various cultural practices.

[16] Posted by Katherine on 07-30-2008 at 06:58 AM • top

I guess it was not the time or place but someone should have stood up and said what Sarah posted in #4.

Again without Matt and Sarah there would we have heard whats being said in these side shows at Lambeth.

[17] Posted by bob+ on 07-30-2008 at 07:01 AM • top

Same erroneous assumption that if something is “natural” it is “good,” and that if something pre-dates Christianity, it has more credibility.  As Sarah and others have pointed out, Jesus came to free us from lots of old, natural evils. 

I also agree that there seems to be a foot in both worlds - Christianity and indigenous pagan culture - that is leading to a serious compromise of the Christian belief and practice.  Perhaps they were converted by progressive missionaries that didn’t quite have the Gospel right?  Or maybe there has been excessive influence by western culture, encouraging these precious souls that they can have their cake (Jesus) and eat it too (remain in their sin).

[18] Posted by Cindy T. in TX on 07-30-2008 at 07:13 AM • top

Surely part of what they are attempting here is to counter the claim that homosexuality simply doesn’t exist in Africa. African bishops seem to say sometimes say that there are no homosexuals or that homosexuality is only a western problem. I think the gay activists misunderstand what the bishops are saying. They are saying that homosexuality - in the way that it is culturally constructed as a sexual identity in the west does not really exist. I think if you were to ask the bishops about sinful behaviours you might get an entirely different answer.

Thus in the context I know a little. If you ask an Indian bishops if there are gay people in his community then he will likely answer truthfully that as far as he knows there are none. If you ask about sinful sexual behaviours, in an appropriately sensitive context (respecting his culture’s ways of speaking about human sexuality and acknowledging they are very different from western sexual discourse) then you may get an a wholly different conversation.

[19] Posted by driver8 on 07-30-2008 at 07:38 AM • top

Flavia’s statement was so pathetic.  It was clear she wasn’t “on message” with the panel who was trying to shovel this shinola.  She was simply a misguided person, who somehow thought that Davis and the others were speaking up for victims of violence, and basically she was saying “yeah, me too.”

This reminds me so much of “Intro to Gene” video, whereby “his Diocese” introduces him to Lambeth participants, with full confidence that “to know Gene is to love him.”
All of the people on the video seemed to genuinely love Gene, and feel loved by Gene, but nary a WORD about anything involving ministry, the gospel, church, etc.  Very strange…..  It’s like they have the predetermined outcome, and ANY means of getting there is justified.

[20] Posted by heart on 07-30-2008 at 08:07 AM • top

Sarah:

Excellent point.

[21] Posted by Eclipse on 07-30-2008 at 08:32 AM • top

I shouldn’t say I told you so, but I did say the video being touted and distributed was partially faked. I recognized the background sounds, infrastructure and architecture as western in many shots. Now we’re told they’re in the UK. I’m not denying their sexual choices - but I am saying they are immigrants telling a story from a western location, paid for by western benefactors.

[22] Posted by Festivus on 07-30-2008 at 10:05 AM • top

#4 - Sarah - BINGO!

[23] Posted by Festivus on 07-30-2008 at 10:06 AM • top

The only thing Davis Mac-Iyalla is in danger of is the Nigerian government discovering what a fraud he is, and I don’t mean impersonating a gay man. My prediction: One day, perhaps soon, we’ll discover that this was the real reason behind his UK “asylum” request.

[24] Posted by Greg Griffith on 07-30-2008 at 10:17 AM • top

The really odd part of this is the whole “homosexuality was in Africa before Christianity” line. Wasn’t that true everywhere?

Finally I want to say something about organizing. We need to take the lead. We want you to sit down with us and listen to us but do not try to lead us. We know where we need to go and we would like your help and support but not direction.

Wow, this is like revisionism in a nutshell.

[25] Posted by Rocks on 07-30-2008 at 10:22 AM • top

I also find it very curious that Mac-Iyalla, the darling of the very group that sponsored this presentation, was cut off by the moderator’s “light tapping” juuuuuust as he says, “There are many out there in Nigeria being suppressed by the actions of the Nigerian church.”

We have begged these people for any evidence at all that the Church of Nigeria is involved in anything resembling this, and so far, I believe we’ve provided with… wait, let me check… ah yes: ZERO. NOTHING. ZIP.

[26] Posted by Greg Griffith on 07-30-2008 at 10:30 AM • top

Well, if homosexuality was in Africa before Christianity, then that makes it okay, right?  How about what was in Greece before Christianity?  Is that okay too? 

Homosexuality existed before the westerners came with the bible. It as the missionaries with the bible who told the people that they could not do what they were already doing.

How can he be so right about that fact yet miss the point entirely?

Before the missionaries, we did not know the bible. The stranger in Africa is not the homosexual it is the bible. Before that, there was homosexuality.

So why don’t you not just convert back to paganism and forget the whole Bible thing?

[27] Posted by AndrewA on 07-30-2008 at 10:30 AM • top

The stranger in Africa is not the homosexual it is the bible. Before that, there was homosexuality.

We’ve been accused of idolizing the Bible. I guess demonizing the Bible is acceptable.

[28] Posted by oscewicee on 07-30-2008 at 10:33 AM • top

In some African tribes it is still the custom for little boys to be forced to perform sex acts on grown men.  It is considered perfectly natural and part of a male child’s sex education.  I still don’t feel any need to condone let alone recommend it.

And let’s not even get into that lovely traditional African custom, female genital mutilation…

[29] Posted by st. anonymous on 07-30-2008 at 10:39 AM • top

But, st. anonymous - it’s “natural” and it “precedes Chrisitanity.” It must, therefore, be correct? (NOT)

[30] Posted by oscewicee on 07-30-2008 at 10:42 AM • top

With that type of justification, I guess we should look the other way as cannibalism, rape, and genocyde are also embraced as part of a culture. When St. Paul presented the Gospel to the Gentiles, I don’t recall his parting words to them to be “Y’all keep on, keepin’ on”.

[31] Posted by Laytone on 07-30-2008 at 10:58 AM • top

Knocking…head…against…wall…

If this is the best Integrity/Changing Attitudes could come up with to communicate to the world why the church needs to embrace the gospel of sexuality and self… It’s sad.  Sadder still is the distinct possibility the people who represnt African “voices” are themselves being victimized.
Yuck
Carrie

[32] Posted by cityonahill on 07-30-2008 at 01:41 PM • top

It was precisely that there WAS homosexual activity going on, that St. Paul felt led to say something against it (and, surprise, it ended up in the Bible).

[33] Posted by Already left on 07-30-2008 at 02:39 PM • top

Nzimbi’s response to this kind of propagandizing is Evangelizing.  He, at least, has no intention of backing down or turning the parishes back over to their unrepentant dysfunctional parents. 

KENYA: Anglican primate rejects call to stop ‘intervention’ in U.S.
By Fredrick Nzwili, July 30, 2008
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/81808_99558_ENG_HTM.htm

[Ecumenical News International, Nairobi] Anglican Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi of Kenya has said churches in Africa and the Global South will not stop setting up parallel church structures in the United States, despite a call at a gathering of Anglican bishops from all over the world for a halt to such “cross border interventions.”

“We won’t stop going to America to preach the Gospel. We are going to preach the Gospel. We are going to tell the good news to the people,” Nzimbi said in Nairobi on July 30 while addressing journalists before being installed as the president of Church Army Africa, a society of Anglican evangelists.”

[34] Posted by Floridian on 07-30-2008 at 05:25 PM • top

Davis MacIllaya and the others seem to be not converted to Christianity.  They are looking wistfully back to the good old pagan days in which people did things contrary to the Christian moral law and thought nothing of it.  It’s a point of view that has its place, but not in an Anglican Christian conference. 

Katherine - that was exactly my response to reading this article.

The Kingdom of God is indeed a foreign invasion into the cultures of men. I immediately thought of Romans 1, where Paul lists homosexual practice as a vice of the Gentiles, who do not have the Law. I guess we don’t realise how normalised it is/was in pagan culture.

[35] Posted by Derek Smith on 07-30-2008 at 09:23 PM • top

Derek Smith, pagan culuture was built on violence, and oppression. It was cruel and oppressive, no matter how much new agers and so called “neo-pagans” like to paint it otherwise. Those people are not only making it up as they go along, they have no respect. I can’t help but wonder if these people have had things “their way” their entire lives, they certainly act like it.

[36] Posted by mari on 07-30-2008 at 09:31 PM • top

Thanks Mari. I disliked History at school.

In continuation of these observations, has anyone seen Peter Ould’s latest ‘Changing Attitude’-related post? I can’t find a link to it on StandFirm so I guess not.

If it’s true, it could be a bit of an upset for the other side…

[37] Posted by Derek Smith on 07-30-2008 at 09:44 PM • top

According to the Church of Nigeria, Davis Mac-Yialla is a fraud. Be careful.
http://www.anglican-nig.org/disclaimer_iyalla.htm
In prayer for the Anglicans!

[38] Posted by Armando on 07-31-2008 at 02:05 AM • top

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