Drop The Creeds

<b>What?<b>
I’m not even sure what that means.  I think that the reason the church is in trouble now is because we pay to little attention to the creed.

A fellow claiming to be Anglican Priest is quoting from a non-canonical gnostic text and suggesting that the Creeds be dropped?  Someone show that man a copy of the BCP - 1662 edition if you please….

Drop the creeds?  Is this guy SERIOUS?

Let’s Butcher the Creeds now ..... Sometimes I think people’s last names have hidden meanings.

I am afraid the Creeds will be the next authority to be challenged, and finally deposed in the Liberals plan of revolution.
I, however, after visiting Nicaea believe that the Creeds must be held as the essential deposit of Faith, or we will become gnostic—————which I believe many liberals have already become. The last stand, as in ” here I stand”, certainly needs to be the Chicago/Quadrilateral statement.

Forever Anglican

The life, teachings and healing powers of Jesus, strangely enough, can be taught to a congregation through sermons.  I wonder if the good reverend ever preaches on those subjects.

The Rev. Butcher was a long serving rector in San Francisco and a member of the Jesus seminar. Nuff said.
Statmann

Did this guy forget, “On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures” (BCP P.358)?  That is the Resurrected Jesus.  Or, is he talking about another one.  Oh, and here’s that gospel he thinks isn’t in there, “He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.  We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.” (BCP P.359)  Finally, I’m a lot less interested in the “seed of true humanity” as I am in the the one, true, and living God as He reveals Himself through His Word not through obscure and unreliable gnostic texts.  We need creeds because they reflect the essential points of Scripture so that we won’t forget them or the Lord who authored it.  This guy is in terrible need of a catechist and a church historian.

Those Jesus Seminar guys love the gnostic gospels.  I had to read some of that weird stuff if college.  Very vague stuff… can mean whatever you want it to.  No wonder they like it so much.

M-kay. Once again C S Lewis in the ‘Great Divorce’ is shown to have been a prophet.

If the Rev Butcher should happen to read this, the crucifixion and the Resurrection are what Christianity is all about. Without those two, the religion loses all meaning and validity. Unless Jesus is God, then Jesus is just another desert preacher. And if Jesus is not God, and therefore worthy of worship, then I would just as soon not be bothered with this God stuff.

For any honest person, the choice today is between Christianity and atheism or agnosticism. What the Rev Butcher preaches or practices is not an option for anyone who thinks coherently and rationally.

In my church no one is ever to blame.

One of the signs of the increasing influence of Gnosticism in the General Convention church is quotations from Gnostic documents.  The Gnostics separated body and spirit, doctrinal and moral theology.

Brilliant!  Absolutely marvellous!  Just what we need.

This was inevitable. The Liberals don’t believe in Christianity - Marx more like. The TEO is not a Christian organisation, leave alone a Church.

The reason the orthodox have been rolled over all this time is because so many have been fooled into believing, in some way, that they are dealing with Christians.

Let TEO drop the creeds, have their own “God is within you - let the Divine Feminine embrace you” she-woman-creed-like-thing and then everyone will know what they are dealing with.

TEO is NOT Christian!  But they keep the garments of Christianity on.  Removing them is what we need.  Let TEO do it!  Rip the creeds apart. Get into the Gospel of Mary, of Peter, of Mickey Mouse.  Let them have their own creed, their own Bible, etc, etc and then everyone will see an know they dealing with at BEST a cult and worst an extremist left wing pressure group.  Actual Christian Churches will then what they dealing with and the Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Pentecostal, et al can all respond accordingly.

At the moment, TEO are still, maddenly, being treated as an actual Church.  It should not be.

Let the creeds go and end the facade!

I agree with jedivoice 100%.  Episcopal Inc. is going to do this eventually.  A supstantial portion already tried to drop the Credo in the 1700’s, although for different reasons. 

In all fairness though, I know the Baptists don’t use the Creed, even though they believe everything in it because the Creed is merely a summary of Scripture, and I’m not sure about the Pentecostals. 

Oh, I hope that this letter ends up getting widely publicized, and perhaps brought up at the next Global Sout meeting.  People need to realize its not “just about sex”.

I’m confused,

The heart of the gospel is missing

and there was me thinking the heart of the gospel was the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, I’m educated now.
Which ecumenical meeting was the gospel of Mary put into the Bible?
Has the Pope been informed?

Sigh….  That would be “Global South”.  Oh, and to be more precise about the Credo in the 1700’s.

Also:  The role of the Creed in the service is not to describe his life between his birth and his death, or to go into all his teaching in depth.  That is what the Epistle and the Gospel (you know, the real ones) are for. 

What a crank.  Anyone know what his current job is?  Sounds like a future bishop to me.

It’s worth adding, too, that the call for a moratorium on interventions across provinces belongs in the same theological framework. Such interventions often imply that nothing within a province, no provision made or pastoral care offered, can be recognizably and adequately Christian; and this is a claim not lightly to be made by any Christian community regarding any other without grave breach of charity
Rowan Williams - Final Lambeth Address

Tee Hee

Let’s dump the Creeds, the son of God, the Trinity, resurrection etc?

No - let’s dump the heretical parts of TEC.

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ IS the heart of the gospel!

We see this throughout Paul’s epistles and in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles.

It goes back to what C.S. Lewis called the “liturgical fidgets”.  Instead of sticking with the time-honored, orthodox and true, churches have become enamored with the idea of constant “trial liturgies”, “alternative liturgies”, etc. 

The “liturgical fidgets” are the perfect way for revisionists to butcher the true orthodox faith.  Each little change conditions people to accept change, then every once in a while you pull off a really big, heretical change, and people are so used to the changing that many do not even notice….......

The change from the 1928 to the 1979 was subtle, but real.
The penetential nature of Anglicanism, that we are miserable offenders in need of a Saviour, was largely removed.  The literal meaning of Baptism was changed as the 1979 no longer requires us to reject sin and the Devil.  Liturgical “experts” try thir best to discourage TEC parishes from using Rite I, because their is (though altered) some of the original penetential nature of the classic BCP still intact in Rite I.

The next change, a really big one, such as dropping the Creeds, will be pretty easy to pull off. It will probably be pulled off with little protest because the majority of people in TEC have been conditioned to accept change - no questions asked.

This could lead to a test for Bishop Andrus.  Written complaints should be sent him.  Then see if he will proceed canonically.

He is just a simple UU-TEC Bi-ecclesial.

http://www.uucpa.org/sermons_07/sermon070114.html

Let’s look at one of The Rev. John Beverley Butcher’s thoughts: The creed contains nothing about the life, works and teachings of our Lord.  This is true.

I know that fundamentalist Christians (and strict anti-recitation of the creed presbyterians) say the same thing.  Has this never bothered any of us?  Is this because the creeds are based on Greek thought and not Hebrew thought.  Remember what Jesus said to those who came from John the Baptist to ask if he were Messiah: he spoke of his deeds and healings to display his person.  maybe we could as well.

Sometimes we can learn from those with who we disagree on other matters.

It’s a good thing John Butcher didn’t suggest withholding funds or leaving the diocese.  He might have been deposed for apostasy.

carl

From the Canadian BCP 1962:

Recite the Apostles’ Creed, the Articles of your Belief.

Answer.
I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried: He descended into hell; The third day he rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; The holy Catholic Church; The Communion of Saints; The Forgiveness of sins; The Resurrection of the body, And the Life everlasting. Amen.

Catechist. What do you chiefly learn in these Articles of your Belief?

Answer. I learn to have faith in the one true God: in God the Father, who made me and all the world; in God the Son, who redeemed me and all mankind; and in God the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies me and all the people of God.

Catechist. What do you mean by ‘the people of God’?

Answer. I mean Christ’s holy Catholic Church into which I have been baptized.

Of course, this is no longer taught by most of the Anglican Church in Canada. Currently, the faith and worship committee is designing new Rites of Initiation. The suggested works is found link http://www2.anglican.ca/faith/worship/catechumenate/index”> here. </a>

I am so glad that my parish has realigned with Southern Cone.

The bishop of CT already maintains that “we are not a creedal church”.

but I guess that non-canonical “gospels”, rejected by the orthodox who actually lived closer to the time of the Apostles, count!

grrrrrrrrrrrrr….

WTH?!...  The creeds encapsulate the message of the Gospels, the Christian corpus, and the hope of the saints.  Remove the creeds and you’ve removed any vestigal shred of of the faith from the TEC

that’s the aim, isnt’ it?  because if TEC leadership were authentic in their faith, they couldn’t spout half the nonsense that they do!

go over to anglicantv.org and watch the interview with ++Venables—that man is authentic!

This guy (Yes, that’s his real name and he’s a priest) also wrote the <u>Tao of Jesus</u> and <u>An Uncommon Lectionary</u> among other books, the later being “readings from gospels outside the New Testament — Thomas, Peter, Mary (Magdalene), the Sayings Gospel Q — and from other early church documents such as the Didache, the Secret Book of James, and the Odes of Solomon. Designed to complement and supplement common lectionaries, it will help priests, pastors, and liturgical leaders introduce modern listeners to the message of Jesus as it was understood and experienced in all its variety by his earliest followers.” This is YOUR Episcopal Church.

anyone have the original link to this over at Episcopal Life?  I’d like to show this to my priest!

<b> Episcopal Life (Death) is often used to <i>float<i> ideas as a way of softening up the readership/membership.  Down the road it will merit a ‘conversation’.  Then a dialogue.  Credible? <b>
Martyrs Fan

Oh, and just so all of your TECes are clear about the goal here, to quote one seminary professor:

An Uncommon Lectionary is a much needed resource for preachers who want to and dare to expand the traditonal canon. . . . The full texts are included in a marvelously fresh translation. I hope many people use it.
— Howard Rice, Professor of Ministry, Emeritus, San Francisco Theological Seminary

And I like the word TECes. Reminds me of something else that also tends to smell…

I believe the gentleman needs to understand the difference between a brief statement of fundamental beliefs (a creed) and a detailing of the teachings and life of Jesus (the Gospels).

Grade ‘F’ on the Rev. Mr. Butcher’s command of English terminology. Oh, but then I forgot what publication’s editors permitted this missive.

It is usually the revisionists who are arguing for a minimalist view of doctrine.  The minimalist view seems, however, to have included the Creeds.  It’s often argued, for example, that no one should have a problem with divergent views as long as we believe and recite the Creeds (and maybe affirm the Lambeth Quadrilateral).    Even the Righter court’s formulation of “Core Doctrine,” adopting the view of the Bishop Brown case, included the Creeds as the most important formularies of doctrine.

Bill in Ottawa, thanks for the link to ACoC proposed Rites of Initiation.  If you copy and paste the link text and remove “index” from the end of the link it works, otherwise you get a 404 Error Page Not Found.

What’s worse?  Dropping them or saying them and not meaning them?  TEC has been doing the latter now for YEARS.

Probably finally being honest.

Thanks Milton
My cut and paste skills need a tuneup I think.

Where is the FRESH HELL tag.

Where is the link? I did my best to add this to the heresy list, where it surely belongs.

Why should persons who have and continue to hold the Creeds in abeyance even be concerned with them? Is it simply that they want to purge them permanently from their book? Note how swift he is to quote from a purported Gospel of Mary Magdalene. As my Father would have said, “he’s a bit of a twit, isn’t he”?

Maybe the new Book of unCommon Prayer can just consign those creeds to the “historical documents” section so folks can know how quaint and fundamentalist those old fogeys were before the Enlightenment of the New Thang.

I guess Mr. Butcher missed the part about “for us and our salvation.” I’m not a church historian, but my understanding of the Creeds are they establish doctrines related to the identity of the Trinity and the actions all three members have taken through out history. The Creeds do not present the Gospel, but rather illustrate why God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have the authority to establish the Law and the power to deliver the promises of the Gospel. If the identity of the Trinity is rejected then the Communion service doesn’t make any sense.

Based on his note, I’m guessing Butcher rejects the resurrection and doesn’t buy into the parts of Romans the lectionary has been covering the past few weeks (i.e. none are righteous, faith reckoned to us as righteousness, God loves us while we were in open rebellion, etc).

Yet, he still thinks its the orthodox that miss the Gospel…

People need to realize its not “just about sex”.

Amen!  Amen!! Amen!!!  Unfortunately, as long as TEC “churches” are places to “see and be seen” the pewsitters just don’t care.

Butcher is an ordained Episcopal minister but he runs a non-denominational “church.”

Drop the Creeds!  Who really believes that stuff any more, anyway?

And drop the scripture readings, too.  That Bible thing is such a drag.  Makes you feel bad about yourself.

And do we really need that crucifix up there in the sanctuary?  I mean, it’s kind of depressing to look at.  I’ve got a much nicer piece of statuary, very inspiring, to put in its place.  A pretty little calf, all made of gold…

You know that one of the next major “initiatives” within ECUSA (I refuse to call it TEC) will be the rewriting of the BCP.  Of course they may do like the CofE has done and created a mishmash of different options and choices as alternates for the 1662 BCP that there is really no such thing as common prayer.

In the future, everyone will be able to pick and choose what the liturgy will look like and what they want to believe; except the Anglo-Catholics of course.  “Cafeteria Plan Anglicanism”

We are Catholics not congregationalists!

ECULTA - Egregious Cult of America

or

TEC - The Egregious Cult

Lord have mercy. 
Pray for Jerusalem.  Isaiah 62:1-7; Psalm 122

If you do not know the heart of the gospel that Butcher laments is missing from the Creed let me clarify.  It is this:
“Jesus Never Said Anything About ____________”
“Jesus Associated With Sinners”
“Jesus Preached Total Love & Tolerance”
“Jesus Would Want Us To Stop Talking About____”
“The MDG Hears The Cry Of The Poor”
It is first off not the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John it is the gospel of victimization and guilt.  It is not freeing but enslaves us to the tempest of the world.  It does not save but ensnares us in sin.  It is a gospel ready made for celebration of the seven deadly sins.  It is dangerous because it does use the language of the Gospel and it does mention Jesus.  It just always leaves out some key points.  Like repenting our sins and Jesus being the only way.  I for one reject it.

Readers of this entry will find this helpful:
http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2008/08/pleromic-blood-and-gnosticism.html

Well, now this really gets to the heart of the matter. 
If a group sets out to take over a church and remake it in their image, how many pieces can be removed or rearranged before it no longer resembles that which they wished to take over.  If all who are tue believers in the faith once delivered and in Jesus as The Way leave the ship, is what is left sufficient to confer legitimacy on the group seeking a church to bless their proclivities? 
Which I guess brings us back to the question of why those who are so vehemently opposed to an institution would not just start their own institution.

#29
This comment is not currently online but is in the print version of August Episcopal Life.  It was sent to me by a reader.  It seems Mr. Butcher is working hard to get his point across and Episcopal Life seems anxious to assist.  Some of you may recall Greg gave us a Fresh Hell alert a few months back on this guy.

#44:  Or as advanced at Lambeth, just “TGC,” The Gay Church.  Simple and to the point.

Butcher+ hopes his book

...will help priests, pastors, and liturgical leaders introduce modern listeners to the message of Jesus as it was understood and experienced in all its variety by his earliest followers.

His earliest followers, the early church fathers, roundly rejected the Gnostic gospels and wrote the creeds (with which Butcher+ would like to dispense)  to combat the heresies contained in the Gnostic gospels.

What is worrying is when a man puts on a clerical collar and masquerades as an Anglican priest is the effect when a searching person comes to him searching for the living God - and he deliberately leads them astray.  This is what is most distressing and why what is going on in some of our churches is so important.

52:  Exactly. Scripture says pastors are to protect the flock from the wolves.  Increasingly, however, wolves wear clerical collars, especially in TEO.

Well, hey .... Why not just drop Christianity too while you’re at it and be done with all the troublesome aspects of the service…....

TECs innovations are rooted in a lack of acceptance of the atoning death of a divine Jesus Christ as proclaimed in the Gospels. The only difference between this lost soul and other TEC revisionist leaders is his candor.

We don’t need to nash our teeth over the statement.  Just be grateful that the Lord is continuing to reveal the real agenda of those that control the Episcopal Church.

Dr. N #38, you have a “heresy” list.  I have a “watch the enemy” folder in my favorites.  Interesting.

In Arkansas my bishop reported on Lambeth to the clergy last week. I really can’t say that it sounded that he was too impressed. He said that there wasn’t an official vote taken on anything. That the English Bishops were at each other’s throats and their situation was worse than the American Churches. And that he did not feel that we should raise issues of sexuality to a “Creedal level.” Also, he talked of “Missiology in context.” In other words, I think what he meant was, if the United States Church is reaching out to gays because that is our societal context, it should be OK with the rest of the Communion. If polygamy is OK somewhere else, well, OK to that too. Scriptural teachings that fit into a societal context are fine, but we can overlook the others. As to creedal importance, well he talks a lot about the Resurrection, but he has yet to offer whether he believes in the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus, or a context in which a community felt something resurrectional, resurrection-lite, resurrection like, took place. Or that the folks following Jesus just continued on after the death of Jesus with his community (defined as resurrection)...So I am left to wonder if the creed may not be “contextual” too? Fortunately I went with an attorney, now a priest, who could understand the subtleties of what we heard. I have probably butchered it here. At any rate, the bishop had to wait until the special September HoB’s meeting to tell us what he really thought about Lambeth. I think you will hear a party line about the creeds, similar to his, following that meeting, being espoused by many bishops.

“From the August 2008 edition of Episcopal Life”

I didn’t know it still existed, centainly if it does that anyone reads it?!?!

Oh, about #57, I didn’t mean that anyone was accused of practicing polygamy.

#56, the heresy list is here at Stand Firm.

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/13902

Rev. Butcher is aptly named.

THIS is part of the “new theology”... that the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ did NOTHING for mankind, but the love and life He preached is what makes a difference TO THE “GOD” THAT IS IN ALL OF US!  Talk about fingers crossed at the Creeds!  They have trouble enough with the Apostles and Nicene Creeds.  They’d have to BRAID fingers and toes at the Athenesian Creed!  This is where and why THE TWO OR MORE CHURCHES OF TEC MUST PART COMPANY WITH EACH OTHER!

For many years John Beverly served as the rector of a parish in San Francisco where the faith he taught was not even liberal Christianity, but the Tao.

As a two decade reader of the Wittenburg Door http://www.wttenburgdoor.com, in Issue #154 July/August 1997, I was shocked to read the Interview and find Rev. Butcher talking about his many years of teaching the Tao, not Christianity, in his parish. See: INTERVIEW: Rev. John Beverly Butcher – How now the Tao of Jesus? by Becky Garrison. http://archives.wittenburgdoor.com/doorstore/backissues/95-98.html#154. John Beverly spent most of his career leading people away from Trinitarian faith and Trinitarian focused Anglican worship.

Ahhh there it is. I knew it would rise to the surface eventually! TEC are cross-dressers in every form you can call it! Dressing to hide what they are really, or only superficially and in dress only “christian”. Progressive TEC is a religious dress-up party - “we get to wear cool vestments, process in and out with pomp and somberness. We get to pass in public as “christians” with our black/purple shirts and funky collars, but really underneath it all, not so much. Its all on the surface “wink-wink, nudge-nudge”, we get to have fun dressing up as clowns, as June brides, as simple country bishops, as rainbowed includers (exclusively of course - can’t have real christians in here they are clever enough!). We are the enlightened elitist educated progressive thinkers, who know so much better than the average person, so we dress up to pull a clever little prank of our naive witnesses.”

Mr. Butcher is ignorant of the theology of the Anglican/ Episcopal Church, he must have gotten lost while trying to find his way the Unitarian church.

Apparently, while the Father did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night and would otherwise be qualified as an TEC priest, he unfortunately has sleep apnea which tends to mitigate any of the magical effects that sleeping at that hotel chain seems to have on one’s skills…..which would explain why he is mystified about the purpose of the creeds.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.  Amen.

OK.  Some Episcopal Priests are totally ignorant not only of Scripture and theology, but also ecclesiology and history.  This is the inevitable result of selection for the priesthood solely on the basis of Political Correctness.

In other breaking news, pigs ... oh, never mind…

Festivius @31.  San Francisco Theological Seminary is a Presbyterian Seminary.  Church Divinity School of the Pacific is the Episcopal sem of the Province 8.  You may know this but some of your readers may not and given your reference
to TEC may have associated the professor you quote with TEC.

There is no book of Mary Magdeline in the bible.
Books of the New Testament
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts of the Apostles
Romans
I Corinthians
II Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
I Thessalonians
II Thessalonians
I Timothy
II Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
I Peter
II Peter
I John
II John
III John
Jude
Revelation

Appears to be a semi stealthy approach by liberals to dispose of one of the foundations of our faith under the guise of trying to appear as an adherent to faithful interpretation of the Bible. Not really fooling anyone is he.

Mmmmmmm ...... I think we Christians will continue to recite AND believe the Creeds, thank you. The rest of you heretics can do what you please. At least in this life.
AP+

But the creed does speak of his miracles when it declares his resurrection.  All of Jesus miracles were glimpses of his power over sin and death.  The resurrection is the culmination of this.

Patrick Malone
Ohio

#12 - I understand your frustration but there should be more than a parting of ways. Remember that there are souls at stake - people who are taught by this man are ingesting spiritual poison and risk eternal damnation. The ancient heresy of which he is an exponent must be combated by the faithful just as it was in ancient times, to spare as many as possible from those soul-destroying lies. We just can’t let them go their own way - they have to be exposed and fought at every turn.

FrVan, post 57,
Regarding your mention of polygamy as it relates to “Missiology in context.”: 
Polygamy is acceptable in the Muslim Religion, Osama bin Laden (of 911 fame) has at least three wives (as reported in the book the Looming Tower). Polygamy may be common in the Muslim community but it is not acceptable in the Christian community. I see no reason why Christians in Muslim countries should embrace polygamy in order to be in context with their country’s norms.

If you want to look at it in context a Muslim who converted to Christianity, I would assume that he would be expected to embrace the idea of one man one wife as a Christian but Christians would not expect him to turn his present wives out on the street, he would just be expected to teach his children the basic tenets of the Christian faith which include the concept of one man one wife, assuming that it is safe for him to do so.

What shock, what surprise!  Have you just now awakened from 1976?  From under what rock?  It’s been this way for *decades* now.

I think this advocacy to drop The Creeds is part of the larger effort intended to rationalize sweeping Christ and his teachings under the rug. The Creeds emphasize Christ being One with God. I do believe that TEC and those like them would prefer to diminish one or the other, to more easily reduce the faith to what they choose it to be about.

Christ being One with God is incovenient for their purposes.