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Hypocrisy and Bristol Palin’s Baby

Wednesday, September 3, 2008 • 11:46 am

When Focus on the Family's Dr. James Dobson expressed his continuing support for Governor Palin in a statement released Monday, there was confusion mixed with anger on the left. “Hypocrisy!” was the cry. How can evangelicals overlook the fact that Palin's daughter has done what evangelicals tell other people not to do? Had it been Chelsae Clinton, they speculated, then the response would have been quick and judgmental. Dobson and other evangelicals, they said, demonstrate, once again, that political expediency trumps moral consistency.
Strange expectations abound this week in the secular press, expectations that illustrate a fundamental ignorance of the political demographic that has swung the last two presidential elections toward the Republican candidate.

Here is Dr. Barbara Kellerman, quoted over the weekend on Newsweek's website, holding forth on the anticipated effects of Governor Palin's daughter's pregnancy on her “religious conservative” (read: evangelical) base.
"A pregnant 17-year-old daughter definitely pushes the bounds of how a candidate's life as a parent becomes public," says Barbara Kellerman, a professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, who studies in women and politics. "I don't think it'll play very kindly with the constituency that would seem most obvious for her to appeal to, the relatively religious, conservative voters."

Only someone whose knowledge of evangelicals comes solely via leftist politicos and revisionist clerics could harbor such caricatured expectations.

Dr. Kellerman is not alone. Sally Quinn and a host of other secular pundits came to the same befuddled conclusion; Palin's daughter's pregnancy damages her standing among conservative evangelicals.

When Focus on the Family's Dr. James Dobson expressed his continuing support for Governor Palin in a statement released Monday, there was confusion mixed with anger on the left. “Hypocrisy!” was the cry. How can evangelicals overlook the fact that Palin's daughter has done what evangelicals tell other people not to do? Had it been Chelsae Clinton, they speculated, then the response would have been quick and judgmental. Dobson and other evangelicals, they said, demonstrate, once again, that political expediency trumps moral consistency.

Perhaps.

I am sure there are evangelical leaders who are more concerned with political advantage than with the nation's moral fibre just as there are liberal clerics who are more zealous for social revolution than social justice.

But understanding the general conservative evangelical non-response to Bristol Palin's pregnancy is really not that difficult and I say this as an evangelical who will not be voting for McCain-Palin.

Leftist pundits need only to think of their own experience with children.

No need to be cynical. Surely some leftist pundits have children and I have no doubt that those who do are good parents. They almost certainly teach their children not to lie. When they lie anyway, as children do, leftist pundit parents no doubt attempt some sort of corrective measure (not spanking of course) to reinforce the rule against lying.

And then they forgive. If there are consequences associated with the lie (say the child has lied to a teacher or some external authority) and if the leftist pundits are good parents, they permit the child to bear whatever consequences that result while offering, at the same time, love and support.

Does the act of forgiveness negate the offense? No. Does forgiveness imply that the rule against lying has changed? Of course not. Are our leftist pundit parents “hypocritical” for both expecting honesty and forgiving deceit? Absurd.

A moral good, in so far as it is a true one, is not contingent upon the action or inaction of those who seek to follow it. Honesty is “good” despite human dishonesty and it is not hypocritical to uphold honesty while forgiving those who are dishonest.

Let's think about this question of “hypocrisy” more deeply since this is the charge most frequently leveled by leftists not just at evangelicals but Christians in general.

Undeniably, those of us who are parents have lied in the past and sometimes lie in the present. Does our failure to uphold the “good” of honesty disqualify us from disciplining our children's dishonesty? Are we hypocrites for requiring our children to keep a rule we break?

No. Honesty, again, is good and right and true despite our own periodic dishonesty. Honesty is not “good” because we do it and its goodness is not negated if we fail. We do not say to our children, hopefully, “Be honest because I, your parent, am honest” (although, hopefully, we model what we require). We say “Be honest because honesty is good.”

As parents we are responsible for training our children to do “good” for their own benefit and the well-being of human civilization. If the definition of right and wrong hinged on “what we ourselves have done”, then little would remain to hinder our society’s descent into barbarism.

Parents uphold the “good” and enforce it in their homes because it is good

I have been reasoning on a fairly common level. Most parents, be they leftists, right-wingers, Christians, Buddhists, or atheists would agree with what I have written but, of course, for different reasons…and, no doubt, some of those reasons would be philosophically inconsistent. The atheist parents I know, for example, who embrace moral relativism in theory tend toward moral absolutism with regard to their children, inculcating overarching values like “honesty” despite their philosophical commitments.

Most everyone, irrespective of their religion or philosophy, maintains that certain character traits are “good”, honesty being one example, even though most arrive at that conclusion in different ways and support it with varied and often conflicting philosophies and/or faith commitments.

Christians believe that the standard for what is “good” is primarily a revealed one. It lies beyond us and above us, resting in and originating from the nature and character of God, made known to us in the bible.

And here, perhaps, is where our leftist pundit friends might begin to grasp how it is possible for evangelicals to support Governor Palin and her daughter despite her daughter’s moral failure. The Church is charged with proclaiming, maintaining, and obeying the “good” as God reveals it much like the parent must uphold “goods” like honesty. The Church is the parent, the “mother”, of those who come to faith in Jesus Christ and, beyond that, as Jesus says, the Church is supposed to be something of a “light” to the world pointing those who live in darkness toward the truth that Jesus came to announce and enact.

The truth is that God’s law is pure and good and perfect and that we, human beings, are not. We fail, we sin, we fall. And yet, despite our inability to do what God commands we cannot and do not pretend that he has not commanded it. The law is good despite our own inability to follow it.

Which leads to another truth, the foundational truth of the Christian faith: Jesus Christ came to save sinners. He lived a pure, good, and holy life in our stead and when he died on the cross, he bore in our place the eternal consequences of human sin in his body and in his soul. Three days later he rose bodily from the grave and for forty days taught and lived on earth before ascending into heaven where he now resides until he comes again.

Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and ascension opened the door to forgiveness, mercy, and reconciliation with God. The scriptures promise that whoever repents, turns from sin, and surrenders his or her life to Jesus Christ will be forgiven, cleansed, and granted an eternal life with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So Christians uphold and proclaim a standard that we believe rests in God’s own character. We cannot change it to make it conform to the culture of our day nor may we shape it to suit own desires. It cannot be compromised or hidden or watered down.

And yet we acknowledge that no one can follow it to perfection.

So forgiveness is an absolute necessity both for ourselves before God and as a habitual offering to others.

The Church can, then, on the one hand uphold the revealed truth that sexual intercourse outside of marriage is a sin and, on the other, offer compassion, support, and forgiveness through Jesus Christ to those, like Governor Palin’s daughter, who fail. Note, again, how consistent this is with the actions of a parent described above.

The evangelical response to Governor Palin’s daughter was not only unsurprising but entirely predictable to anyone who knows anything about what evangelicals believe.

It was also entirely predictable to anyone who knows anything about the secular press, that the most rigid and unforgiving response to this week’s revelation has not come from evangelical Christians but leftist pundits.
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Comments:

Some of the attacks on Palin test efforts to stay within the confines of polite language.  A Democrat congressman (Wexler of Florida) has even tried to link her to Nazis!

Can you imagine the attacks Olbermann and the rest of the liberal news media would dish out if a Republican congressman made such outrageous statements?

[1] Posted by Newbie Anglican on 09-03-2008 at 11:54 AM • top

Dr. Kellerman, please explain “relatively religious” as in,

“...her to appeal to, the relatively religious, conservative voters.”

[2] Posted by Undergroundpewster on 09-03-2008 at 12:08 PM • top

Was Mr Obama’s mom married to his father? It is my understanding that he is the result of a rebellious “fling” of his mom when she was a graduate student at the University of Hawaii.

[3] Posted by robroy on 09-03-2008 at 12:14 PM • top

The far left are having a tangent because Palin and her family aren’t conforming to the negative stereotypes that they need to paint conservatives, or Christians as being. I read an article on sfgate.com where the commenters were essentially saying that unless Bristol Palin thought the same way they did, she wasn’t being allowed to think for herself. This sort of thing is an extension of the hypocrisies and hatred that comes from the far left that have forced me to abandon the democratic party. They simply do not represent the best interests of the American people, in fact they have regressed to being the party of slavery once again.

[4] Posted by mari on 09-03-2008 at 12:20 PM • top

Should the sins of the children be visited on the mothers?

[5] Posted by Pageantmaster on 09-03-2008 at 12:23 PM • top

Noonan on evangelical responses to the issue:

Let me say of myself and almost everyone I know in the press, all the chattering classes and political strategists and inside dopesters of the Amtrak Acela Line: We live in a bubble and have around us bubble people. We are Bubbleheads. We know this and try to compensate for it by taking road trips through the continent—we’re on one now, in Minneapolis—where we talk to normal people. But we soon forget the pithy, knowing thing the garage mechanic said in the diner, and anyway we weren’t there long enough in the continent to KNOW, to absorb. We view through a prism of hyper-sophistication, and judge by the rules of Chevy Chase and Greenwich, of Cleveland Park and McLean, of Bronxville and Manhattan.

And again we know this, we know this is our limit, our lack.

But we also forget it.

And when you forget you’re a Bubblehead you get in trouble, you misjudge things. For one thing, you assume evangelical Christians will be appalled and left agitated by the circumstances of Mrs. Palin’s daughter. But modern American evangelicals are among the last people who’d judge her harshly. It is the left that is about to go crazy with Puritan judgments; it is the right that is about to show what mellow looks like. Religious conservatives know something’s wrong with us, that man’s a mess. They are not left dazed by the latest applications of this fact. “This just in – there’s a lot of sinning going on out there” is not a headline they’d understand to be news.

So the media’s going to wait for the Christian right to rise up and condemn Mrs. Palin, and they’re not going to do it because it’s not their way, and in any case her problems are their problems. Christians lived through the second half of the 20th century, and the first years of the 21st. They weren’t immune from the culture, they just eventually broke from it, or came to hold themselves in some ways apart from it. I think the media will explain the lack of condemnation as “Republican loyalty” and “talking points.” But that’s not what it will be.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122044753790594947.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[6] Posted by James Manley on 09-03-2008 at 12:27 PM • top

Thank you for this article. Great.

[7] Posted by Going Home on 09-03-2008 at 12:48 PM • top

Wishful thinking: I wish my kids had just said NO(to drugs, alcohol, sex etc.). They didn’t and they have all paid various prices for their failings. God knows, I did my best to discourage their behaviour. Looking back, I don’t blame myself although if I knew then what I know now, I would have done some things differently. But, unless we ignore our kids completely, we are NOT responsible for their failings if we tried our best to teach them properly.

Bottom line: How in the world can it be a failure on Palin’s part because her 17 year old daughter ignored what she was taught and fell victim to her raging hormones? These so-called pundits need to wake up to the real world.

Truth be told, Palin is just like a lot of other parents I know. She is struggling to raise her children in an imperfect society that constantly seeks to undermine everything she teaches them. She has a husband who committed a youthful indiscretion by driving under the influence. She has a brand new down’s syndrome baby that she elected to have and raise. She has a pregnant daughter. She has a sister that was involved in a messy divorce. BIG DAMN DEAL!!!! What we ought to do is pin a medal on her for enduring all that and still having the guts to allow herself to be nominated for vice-president, knowing she was going to have to face a liberal $hit storm. God bless her.

And besides, any woman that can kill, dress and cook a moose is A-OK in my book.

the snarkster™

[8] Posted by the snarkster on 09-03-2008 at 12:56 PM • top

What Snarkster said!

[9] Posted by more martha than mary on 09-03-2008 at 01:16 PM • top

“and I say this as an evangelical who will not be voting for McCain-Palin.”

I can understand. McCain lost me on the ports deal. A super deal that he didn’t have the courage to support. To bad Cheney is not running. I figure I owe Nader for 2000. Nader is not a guy you want to owe, creepy.

[10] Posted by ctowles on 09-03-2008 at 01:16 PM • top

It is my opinion that when the secular media mention evanelicals, they are not talking about Anglican evangelicals, but about protestant fundamentalists such as Southern Baptists, etc.  They are a very different breed from Stand Firm, or even from conservative Lutherans.

[11] Posted by GB on 09-03-2008 at 01:19 PM • top

The trouble with the leftist revisionist is that they have never learned the difference between “approved” sinners and repentant sinners.

[12] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 09-03-2008 at 01:24 PM • top

#8 - Why the heck drag the issue into the debate? To get a darn medal? I’d rather her decline because she knew the issues it would raise. I really, really do not think she was McCain’s first choice nor was the issue (if known) discussed with enough vigor. I still live in a morality that if she was my daughter, I’d be very ashamed and quite about it, and handle it within the family - not the public. The later has me concerned about Gov. Palin’s character where her being on the ticket is primary. My daughter would be first.

[13] Posted by Festivus on 09-03-2008 at 01:31 PM • top

GB, I would suggest you know nothing about Southern Baptists, if you are going to believe the same stereotypes about them that Leftist Anglicans try to say about you.

[14] Posted by AndrewA on 09-03-2008 at 01:31 PM • top

The loony left said it was no one’s business that while in office (and while physcially in his actual office), their hero was sexually engaged with other women (including a young staff intern) and lying about it under oath, but the indiscretions of Palin’s daughter disqualify Palin from office?  I have questions about Palin’s qualifications (but no more than I have about Obama’s), but her daughter’s sex life surely isn’t one of them.

[15] Posted by DaveG on 09-03-2008 at 01:43 PM • top

I think this is a very good article.

On a somewhat related note, I think that the value of hypocrisy is almost universally overlooked.  A hypocrite, in my opinion, is not the worst thing you can be.  A hypocrite at least wants others to do the good thing, while allowing himself to do the opposite.

More dangerous are those who not only do evil themselves, but teach others to do so.

Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 1:32

[16] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 09-03-2008 at 01:53 PM • top

#8 - Why the heck drag the issue into the debate? To get a darn medal? I’d rather her decline because she knew the issues it would raise.

Short answer: Because it shouldn’t be an issue to begin with. The girl made a mistake. She will now pay for the mistake. She is going to lose some good years of her childhood. Where is the shame in that? It was public or soon-to-be public knowledge anyway. Hard to be pregnant in a town of 8000 without everyone knowing about it. Would you prefer that her parents sent her to an abortion clinic? Or moved her to a remote cabin in the Yukon until she had the baby? And then put the baby up for adoption? That’s the easy way out. I don’t condone her getting pregnant but she is doing the right thing, presumably guided by her parents, by marrying the father and having the baby. Give her and her mother break.

By the way: Charlie Manson’s parents should be ashamed. Adolph Hitler’s parents should be ashamed. Lee Harvey Oswald’s parents should be ashamed. Bristol’s parents have NOTHING to be ashamed about.

the snarkster™

[17] Posted by the snarkster on 09-03-2008 at 01:54 PM • top

“and I say this as an evangelical who will not be voting for McCain-Palin.”

Is there another option out there???  I’d take a ticket with a VP whose daughter got pregnant and rather than abortion took responsibility and sought to marry the father than a ticket with P who can still sleep at night having supported infanticide.  Apart from that, good article.

[18] Posted by rreed on 09-03-2008 at 01:55 PM • top

Matt, I am with you 110% on this one.

[19] Posted by Tom Dupree, Jr. on 09-03-2008 at 02:02 PM • top

Let me guess, you’re voting for Ron Paul?

[20] Posted by Tom Dupree, Jr. on 09-03-2008 at 02:07 PM • top

13, I know from your prior posts that you are a thoughtful, devout Christian. So I would ask you to consider this. The Palin’s daughter, after considering all options, had already decided to marry the father and keep and raise the child with the support of their extended family.  There was going to be nothing “private” about it, regardless of her decision.  All of her friends and classmates knew. For a teenager, that is the world.

I certainly understand your comment about being ashamed, for embarrassment is natural. But I would pose this question. What would you be ashamed about?  That a member of your family engaged in sexual sin?  The truth is that this board is littered with participants whose children or other family members have committed sexual sin. Many of us are guilty ourselves, although most of us would like to forget about it. Our opponents in the debate over the future of Anglicanism claim that you cannot truly love and embrace the individual unless you embrace and endorse a continuation of that person’s sexual misconduct. As followers of Christ, we know that the exact opposite is true.  All that matters is whether we intend to live our next step in Christ. 

I am so passionate about this because it gets to the core of the pro-life debate, and the larger issue of how we effectively communicate Jesus Christ to a culture that would characterize us hypocrites who hide our own sin while condemning others.  If we can’t get our public reaction to this story right, we have no chance of being an effective advocate for Christ in this world. We might as well close up shop.

[21] Posted by Going Home on 09-03-2008 at 02:10 PM • top

I am proud of the compassion and understanding that is being shown on this thread. And the snarkster™ has certainly written some thoughtful and insightful things. I really feel uplifted which seems odd given the nature of the subject. Thanks, and certainly my prayers go out to this young women, as well as for those who would make political fodder out of these challenges. I just hate that this child will one day grow up to read some of the terrible things people have said about her/him. No child should ever hear their name and also read or hear that they were a mistake or an embarrassment.

[22] Posted by FrVan on 09-03-2008 at 02:12 PM • top

1) There’s a whole “lotta” focusing on the bad part of this (yep… she obviously slept with someone outside of marriage) and not much on the good.

Lots of people are pro-life until it impacts them personally. If anyone is going to have an abortion… a pregnant teenager with a politician for a mother has got to be high on the list. Yet she chooses to marry the father and keep the baby. Why can we not honor her for that decision?

We’re supposed to doubt the mother’s parenting skills because she couldn’t control every urge of a teenage girl but not credit her for instilling in her daughter a clear set of priorities?

Sounds like she fell down on the five second decision but has the right values for a lifetime.

It’s clear that on the issue of abortion… this family is not hypocritical. That’s exactly who I want representing me.

[23] Posted by Positive Phototaxis on 09-03-2008 at 02:29 PM • top

“Sounds like she fell down on the five second decision but has the right values for a lifetime.” Great phrase…

Why aren’t the media talking about her son that is about to be deployed into the combat zone?  Sex, sex, sex.

[24] Posted by FrVan on 09-03-2008 at 02:33 PM • top

Oops… there was a “2)” and “3)” too. smile

2) What a double standard! I remember Gore’s son being arrested just a day or two before the Democratic convention. Two subsequent arrests show that he has a problem with alcohol and drugs (and drives anyway).

It wasn’t even an issue on the nightly news during the convention. Nobody questioned whether Gore could devote enough time to raising his kids… or if he had been a good enough father. A few news stories ran about it later on… but Palin has had more coverage (and far more judgmental coverage) in mere days.

3) What happened to the feminists? Suddenly “privacy” means you can kill the baby… but it doesn’t mean that you can keep it and not be made into a spectacle? (ok… I know there’s nothing “suddenly” about it) - We’re supposed to be handing out condoms in schools but they can act shocked that some kid might actually have done something? If she was 13 and wanted an abortion there wouldn’t be any indignation on their part (they would even insist that a public school teacher should have the ability to take her to a “doctor” without the parents knowledge or consent).

I’m sure there’s a “4)” through “39)” too.

[25] Posted by Positive Phototaxis on 09-03-2008 at 02:38 PM • top

Christ knew that we sin, he didn’t say that we were lost because of that fact.. but that we needed to learn to sin no more. Bristol Palin will in deed pay the price in the loss of what had been carefree days, and peaceful nights. She will spend the next almost two decades putting that child first.

There are more families out there than not, who have gone through this or something similar. Those who would attempt to exploit this to attack Gov. Palin, are out of touch with average Americans, and their realities.

Even on the dreadful Daily Kos, the majority of the blog’s readers slammed these attacks.

[26] Posted by mari on 09-03-2008 at 02:47 PM • top

You know, the thing is that we’re Christians because we admit we need a Savior. A Savior, for heaven’s sake.  If we were able to lead the perfect life, what would we need a Savior for?

bb

[27] Posted by BabyBlue on 09-03-2008 at 02:49 PM • top

#17 and #21 - I am in no way advocating any choice other than keeping the child. There was a time when, regardless of being in a town of 8000 or a city of 1 million, one would choose to be discrete and protect the family and the child. As I stated, I would want to protect my daughter as much as possible - not throw her into the limelight of politics. Sorry - but I see it as a selfish choice for Gov. Palin. You can disagree.

[28] Posted by Festivus on 09-03-2008 at 03:09 PM • top
[29] Posted by Wayne from Jeremiah Films on 09-03-2008 at 03:11 PM • top

Festivus…

Um… you know that she was already the governor of the state, right?

It isn’t as if she can just fade into obscurity.

[30] Posted by Positive Phototaxis on 09-03-2008 at 03:13 PM • top

#30 - you know she went from being in the state limelight (where up there in the northern corner closer to Russia and Canada than the US) to the international limelight, right? And it shouldn’t be ABOUT HER. HOW MANY WAYS CAN I SAY THAT!?!?!?

[31] Posted by Festivus on 09-03-2008 at 03:21 PM • top

And if mom rejects a “calling” to be VP of the US (possibly an actual “call”) because of her daughter… how is that not “ABOUT HER”?

Saying it’s “only Alaska” is like a kid covering her eyes so that you can’t see her. Are you saying that you wish you didn’t have to read about it? The poor girl still has to face everyone she’s ever known or cared about… mom can’t shield that by avoiding a run.

Palin represents a potentially crippling blow to liberalism and anti-Christian feminism. She not only could become VP, she could be the President four years from now. A president that the left couldn’t falsely paint as sexist or hypocritical. Make no mistake, they will pull no punches to try to kill her candidacy. It’s Clarence Thomas all over again but bigger. It is most certainly going to get ugly.

I’d rather that she not have to go through that. But to run from the fight because they are going to fight dirty? This is not that kind of person and it’s clear that her daughter wouldn’t ask that of her.

[32] Posted by Positive Phototaxis on 09-03-2008 at 03:33 PM • top

My understanding is Gov. Palin didn’t throw her daughter into the limelight…. the media did….

[33] Posted by Kate Stirk on 09-03-2008 at 03:34 PM • top

It is getting to the point that no one will want to run for anything because the press will be after them like a pack of starving jackals chasing a meat wagon. If you dig deep enough, you can find something bad in anyones past and the chances go up dramatically if you throw their family in too. Fer Chrissakes, even Mother Theresa had a deep dark secret that only came out after she died. Should no one ever take a shot at public office just because their kid committed an indiscretion?

This was NOT a “selfish” choice for Gov.Palin. It was a principled and gutsy choice. No one should have to endure the press feeding frenzy that this has engendered simply because they aspire to public service and have a family. I admire her a lot. Voting for McCain will be a lot easier with her on the ticket.

the snarkster™

[34] Posted by the snarkster on 09-03-2008 at 03:49 PM • top

I agree with #34. I hate gossip! So, now, what did Mother Theresa have to give her a dark past? Inquiring minds want to know…C’mon out with it! smile

[35] Posted by FrVan on 09-03-2008 at 03:56 PM • top

Snarkster for President, if Palin is forced out.

[36] Posted by Going Home on 09-03-2008 at 04:06 PM • top

Fr.Van
There was an article I read that was based on writings of Mother Theresa that were discovered after her death. It said there was a time early in her calling that she abandoned her religion and was overcome by doubt. I don’t recall much more but when I get the time, I’ll see if I can find it.

the snarkster™

[37] Posted by the snarkster on 09-03-2008 at 04:06 PM • top

I’ll vote with #36! We can start a new party! Or, just throw a party.

[38] Posted by FrVan on 09-03-2008 at 04:08 PM • top

Hypocracy is not living one way and urging others to live another.  We all do that.  (At least everyone I know does that).  That is part of being fallen human beings.  Hypocracy lies in saying that the rules (even the rules I support) don’t apply to me for some reason.  I have never yet met a Christian who didn’t fail to live up to his or her standard of behavior. 

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

[39] Posted by Philip Snyder on 09-03-2008 at 04:14 PM • top

The other thing is that while the circumstances are not ideal, I don’t see how anyone can object to anything as wonderful as a new life coming into the world.  A gift indeed.

[40] Posted by Pageantmaster on 09-03-2008 at 04:18 PM • top

#34 - ouch. Throw Gene in there by name a few times and tweak some words and sounds like Lambeth whine. Speaking of wine, let me go down to the cellar and retrieve a wonderful Merlot. Cheers!

[41] Posted by Festivus on 09-03-2008 at 04:23 PM • top

I can see why the leftist loons are frothing at the mouth about all this.  I am thinking the Lord is confusing their counsel and causing them to do foolish things.  They must be upset that their side could have had a female candidate and blew it!  Wonder what Bill and Hillary are thinking. I don’t know how I will vote yet, but I think the joke’s on the Democrats.  They continue to screw up. IMHO

[42] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 09-03-2008 at 04:25 PM • top

Philip Snyder: I think hypocrisy can also mean to criticize the faults of others while not recognizing your own (remove the log from your own eyes, as Jesus would say)... I have a woman in my parish who blasted someone the other day for what she considered a huge fault. What she didn’t realize is that everyone in the room recognized she had the same issue as the one she was blasting—-very embarrassing!

[43] Posted by FrVan on 09-03-2008 at 04:25 PM • top

#37, Bill Hybels’ closing address at this summer’s Leadership Summit was on Mother Teresa.  He said that she experienced a long interval where she did not have any sense of the presence of God.  There had been wonderful times of joyous refreshing as she had served the Lord and knew he was with her - but then came a time of no sense of God’s presence at all.

She chose to continue to pray and to serve even so.  And to me, that makes her faith all the more real and all the more remarkable.  She simply believed that God was there and that God accepted her service, even if she had no emotional sense of God’s presence at all.  She did not enjoy this period in the least - but she continued to serve the Lord in the task which he had given her. That is not hypocrisy; that is faith.

[44] Posted by AnglicanXn on 09-03-2008 at 04:28 PM • top

#41. Y’know it’s interesting, but many of the religious greats throughout history have mentioned such times in their lives (prots and Cath)...

[45] Posted by FrVan on 09-03-2008 at 04:33 PM • top

AnglicanXn: I said nothing about hypocrisy. It was simply an observation that if you dig deeply enough into anyones past, you can find a little something out of kilter. It was not a slap at Mother Theresa, for whom I have the greatest respect, either.

Regards,
the snarkster™

[46] Posted by the snarkster on 09-03-2008 at 04:36 PM • top

“Leftist loons” are no different from “rightist loons.”  Loons are loons.  Hypocrisy is hypocrisy whether it comes from the Left, Right or Middle. As Obama says, this topic is “off limits.”

Then again, I suppose this kind of media attention is inevitable when religion becomes a political issue. We ought not be surprised when the media buzz provokes discussion about whether one is “Christian enough” or whether one candidate is “a better Christian” than the other political candidate becomes a measure of a candidate’s qualification to hold public office.

Last time I checked, we live in a democracy, not a theocracy. 

But Bristol Palin’s pregnancy or, her decision about what she did outside the bounds of marriage or her choice about what to do in terms of taking responsibility for the consequences of that action is off limits on either side or middle of the political fence. 

The only acceptable Christian response is compassion and forgiveness - for Bristol Palin or anyone else outside the white-hot glare of publicity.

[47] Posted by THATKindofChristian on 09-03-2008 at 05:19 PM • top

Snarkster—sorry if I sounded like I was remonstrating with you; I did not have you in mind, but those who might see any “dark night of the soul” that is not made public as being hypocritical.

[48] Posted by AnglicanXn on 09-03-2008 at 05:20 PM • top

But Bristol Palin’s pregnancy or, her decision about what she did outside the bounds of marriage or her choice about what to do in terms of taking responsibility for the consequences of that action is off limits on either side or middle of the political fence. 

The only acceptable Christian response is compassion and forgiveness - for Bristol Palin or anyone else outside the white-hot glare of publicity.

Something we can agree on.

[49] Posted by AndrewA on 09-03-2008 at 05:42 PM • top

You go Snarkster.  On a different note.  This breaks the cardnal rule of politics. No attacking of Politicians Kids. Plus even though this was offered in a very even manner. I would have been happier if Matt+ would have left this one in the drawer.  This is a private affair.  PRIVATE. Has no place in the public arena.  However since the media is only looking for ratings, what ever sells and gets rating is open. Good gracious, what will be next?.  Also I agree that the fact that the baby is being born and the young lady marrying the father, show a degree of moral fiber.  Remember this is the PRO LIFE idea no matter how you slice it.  So as a group here at SF if we attack the leftist episcopalians who support abortion. Then we should celebrate that a baby has not been murdered.  This show a level of character not seen much in Politics.  That the rules of Pro Life apply to even the ones who say they are pro life.  This is my humble opinion.  But it is also proof as usual when the liberals in politics have nothing to hit on issues they go to personal attacks. I used to enjoy pouncing on liberals when they ran out of the canned material they have heard in sound bites. But I no longer do that because it is a sin to do so.  Especially considering it was a lot of fun. Dang I just sinned. Again this is my opinion. I could be wrong. But I doubt it.

[50] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-03-2008 at 05:47 PM • top

Andrew A.—you are quite a boy, but I’ve got news for you—I know more than I want to know about Southern Baptists.  (lol)  Where did you get to be such an authority?

[51] Posted by GB on 09-03-2008 at 07:44 PM • top

Being one for 25 years.

[52] Posted by AndrewA on 09-03-2008 at 07:48 PM • top

But if that isn’t good enough…

Evangelical leader Dr. Richard Land, President of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission:

“This is the pro-life choice. The fact that people will criticize her for this shows the astounding extent to which the secular critics of the pro-life movement just don’t get it. Those who criticize the Palin family don’t understand that we don’t see babies as a punishment but as a blessing. Barack Obama said that if one of his daughters made a mistake and got pregnant out of wedlock he wouldn’t want her to be punished with a child. Pro lifers don’t see a child as punishment.”

[53] Posted by AndrewA on 09-03-2008 at 07:52 PM • top

GB, I love southern baptists

[54] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-03-2008 at 08:01 PM • top

There are only two candidates who have any chance of becoming the next president of the United States.  It will be either John McCain or Barack Obama.  There is no other possibility, absolutely no other possibility.

It follows, then, that failing to vote for McCain is a vote for Obama.  Recent presidential elections have been settled by small margins, few votes.

Voting for a candidate with no chance of election or not voting clearly is a vote for either McCain or Obama, and one cannot know which until after the election.  That is just the way it is.  Let me make that clear, voting for Bob Barr, Ralph Nader, Ron Paul or any write-in candidate is a vote for either McCain or Obama, but someone else will decide who you voted for.  That is an inescapable fact.  When you vote for a candidate who cannot win, you leave it to others to decide who you voted for.  But you will have voted for one or the other, McCain or Obama, either by omission or commission.  You can’t escape it.

I can understand how one can feel uncomfortable voting for John McCain; he is not “the perfect candidate”.  Being imperfect also, I am comfortable voting for him even though I do not agree with everything he has done or said; I am not comfortable everything I have done or said.

I cannot understand how voting for a candidate who cannot win and therefore casting one’s vote for either McCain or Obama, depending on how others voted, cannot be more uncomfortable.

Ideology and theory, both important, must sometimes be balanced with reality.  This election is one of those times.

Neither John McCain’s, Barack Obama’s, Sarah Palin’s nor Joe Biden’s families are candidates for president of vice president.  Not their spouses, nor their children, nor their siblings nor their other family members are candidates, just John, Barack, Sarah and Joe, as God knows them.

Hold your nose, if you must, but vote against killing babies.  The choice is simple.  It really is.

God bless you and God bless America.

[55] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-03-2008 at 08:30 PM • top

Religious conservatives know something’s wrong with us, that man’s a mess. They are not left dazed by the latest applications of this fact.

This fundamental lack of understanding on the part of many religious and political liberals explains all the priggish blue-nosed moralists of the left.

[56] Posted by Todd Granger on 09-03-2008 at 08:45 PM • top

RE: “Let me make that clear, voting for Bob Barr, Ralph Nader, Ron Paul or any write-in candidate is a vote for either McCain or Obama, but someone else will decide who you voted for.”

Nonsense.  Saying that over and over doesn’t make it so.

Might just as well say . . . “A *nomination* of John McCain by the Republican Party is a vote for Obama.”

Only that’s more realistic.

The simple thing—the really simple thing is—that a vote for McCain is a vote for more presidential nominees like McCain by the Republican Party.

Now . . . if you’re not a conservative and think McCain is mighty fine, then that’s cool of course.

But for conservatives, the thought of the Republican Pary nominating non-conservatives for their presidential candidates over the next scores of years is quite blood curdling.

A vote for McCain is a vote for more presidential nominees like McCain by the Republican Party.  A vote for McCain is a vote for conservatives to go off and start the hard process of the fifty or more years of founding a third party.

If that’s what Republican’s want to vote for, that’s okay.  I’m at peace . . . unlike some of the Republicans around here demanding that conservatives need to vote for the Republican party’s non-conservative candidate.

[57] Posted by Sarah on 09-03-2008 at 09:39 PM • top

Thanks, Sarah, for what you said in response to my comment.  I am not quite sure what you said, but thanks, any how.

[58] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-03-2008 at 09:46 PM • top

[57] Sarah Hey

In 1992, Ross Perot pulled disproportionately from the pool of voters who would have otherwise voted for Bush 1.  The lasting historical impact of Ross Perot is that he carried the election for William Jefferson Clinton.  He was like the Mule in “Foundation and Empire.”  Vote for whoever you like.  But the only historical significance it will have is in its cumulative impact on the election of either Obama or McCain.  There hasn’t been a new political party emerge since the Whigs collapsed in 1854.  It isn’t going to happen again anytime soon.

carl

[59] Posted by carl on 09-03-2008 at 09:50 PM • top

Thank you Matt for a very fine piece.

[60] Posted by physician without health on 09-03-2008 at 09:52 PM • top

“GB, I love southern baptists”

Me too…. been married to one for going on 13 years now.

[61] Posted by Positive Phototaxis on 09-03-2008 at 10:46 PM • top

Pre-Sarah Palin, I could understand (but disagreed) with the argument that a vote for McCain was a vote for “more presidential nominees like McCain by the Republican Party.”

Post-Sarah Palin, I don’t see how you make that argument. Palin is arguably the most conservative candidate among potential Republican candidates. She certainly the most conservative is on issues of traditional concern to social conservatives.

A vote for McCain makes Palin the presumptive Republican Presidential candidate after McCain, most likely in four years. That is a sea change.

Watching her speech, it is clear that Palin is going to shake this election up in unpredictable ways. It will be interesting.

[62] Posted by Going Home on 09-04-2008 at 01:07 AM • top

Slightly OT, but perhaps not…

Watched the speech last night and saw the Palin family be seated.  The boyfriend did not look happy to be there.

[63] Posted by bigjimintx on 09-04-2008 at 05:24 AM • top

I think Going Home makes a persuasive point:

A vote for McCain makes Palin the presumptive Republican Presidential candidate after McCain, most likely in four years. That is a sea change.

I do think that will be a big factor in helping many conservatives vote for McCain.  It’s certainly been an interesting week reading all the reactions to Palin.  Made this race a heck of a lot more interesting.  And no matter who wins, we will have a first.

We will either have a black President or a woman VP.  Wow.

[64] Posted by Karen B. on 09-04-2008 at 05:31 AM • top

[62] Going Home makes the powerful strategic point against voting for some unelectable more-conservative candidate or not voting:

Pre-Sarah Palin, I could understand (but disagreed) with the argument that a vote for McCain was a vote for “more presidential nominees like McCain by the Republican Party.”

Post-Sarah Palin, I don’t see how you make that argument. Palin is arguably the most conservative candidate among potential Republican candidates. She certainly the most conservative is on issues of traditional concern to social conservatives.

A vote for McCain makes Palin the presumptive Republican Presidential candidate after McCain, most likely in four years. That is a sea change.

I think that there is another equally important strategic reason for not doing the “Perot thing” and getting the “Bill Clinton result”. The next four years will have major impact on the content of the US Supreme Court. Who is actually president during those four years will set the tone for the court for much longer than four years. Taking actions in the ballot box that will further entrench liberalism in the court does not seem wise.

[65] Posted by Bill Cool on 09-04-2008 at 06:31 AM • top

a vote for McCain is a vote for more presidential nominees like McCain by the Republican Party

Bring them on ! McCain is conservative in terms of CHARACTER, displaying in his war heroism every virtue conservatism applauds.  Just wait and see how the Republican path swerves to the right during and after a McCain Presidency.

[66] Posted by Anglicat on 09-04-2008 at 07:18 AM • top

We will either have a black President or a woman VP.  Wow

While I see what you are saying, I look forward to the day when people, in response to such things, say “So what?”

Perhaps it is just my generation, but I tend to to dwell in the fact that Obama is half-European, half-African, but instead have pretty much the same problems with him that I had with Kerry, Gore, Clinton, and Dukakis (and that’s as far back as I remember).

Some of my first political memories involve attending a pro-life rally.  Lately I’ve become skeptical of thinking that anything (other than Divine Intervention, and He’s proven willing to allow nations to descend into utter decandence and destruction before) can reverse America’s embrace of abortion, or at least anytime in my life.  Still, I will continue to vote for the least of two weevils when it comes to trying to bring the problem closer to an end.  It helps that I’m also more prone to agree with McCain/Palin on a host of other issue, ranging from foreign policy to gun control. 

Still, I tend to think that Dems had their 8 years under Clinton, the GOP 8 under Bush, and now the pendalum is swinging back to the Dems, and they will get 8 years before the GOP has a reasonable shot again.

[67] Posted by AndrewA on 09-04-2008 at 07:19 AM • top

“but I tend to to dwell”

That should be tend NOT to dwell…

[68] Posted by AndrewA on 09-04-2008 at 07:19 AM • top

Bristol Palin’s pregnancy is being touted as proof that abstinence education doesn’t work. Guess what? Conventional sex education programs (safe sex, condom how-tos, etc.) haven’t significantly lowered the teenage prenancy rate over the last couple of decades. Most kids are subjected to sex ed. in schools and lots of them still get pregnant. Sex education doesn’t stop teenagers from getting pregnant. The difference is that so many young women, often encouraged or prompted by their parents, quietly abort their babies. After all, why should they be ‘punished with a baby,’ as Obama characterizes it.
I didn’t realize until the ‘hypocritical evangelicals’ narrative took hold among our cosmopolitan betters how completely they don’t understand us. Their script of Christians calls for us to throw Bristol Palin into the stocks in the town square and then strap her to the dunking stool for good measure. When instead we give thanks to God that she is not aborting her baby and that she has the loving support of her family, friends and complete strangers, it’s like we’ve appropriated some of that compassion they’re always claiming belongs to them alone.

[69] Posted by HumbleAccess on 09-04-2008 at 07:30 AM • top

What Carl and Bill Cool said!

Wow.  I have gone from holding my nose when I vote for McCain to getting a bumper sticker for my car (as well as a Stop Obama Express sticker).  Not only is the I woman I could vote for, but this is a woman I would like to hang out with.  And the more that comes to life about her and her family, the more I feel in common with her.  For those of you who have raised teenager without some heartache, then you better get down on your knees and thank the God Lord above that in His mercy His has provided an extra protection.  And the more children you have the more likely you are to have or have had one that made a serious mistake.

And sometimes, if you’re really blessed you get to see how our Beloved Lord takes that mistake and uses it, and redeems it by transforming that child into an incredible and faithful adult.  No, the consequences didn’t magically disappear and their impact is still felt years after the mistake, but the movement of grace in the life of that child testifies to the glory of our Lord.

And that’s what the left, the secularists just don’t get.

As I said before on this forum, I pray daily that God does not punish this country by allowing B. Husein Obama to be its president.  Not that we don’t deserve it for turning out backs on His favor that he has shown this country time and time again.  With all due respect to those who consider themselves to be orthodox Christians but who will be voting for Obama, the results of his presidency would be a disaster.  This country cannot afford the judges and justices he would appoint.  So much of the movement of this country toward being a godless nation is the result of legislation from the bench.

Or, do you need to be reminded about what the California courts did to marriage?

[70] Posted by Gayle on 09-04-2008 at 07:40 AM • top

That was a very impressive speech

[71] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-04-2008 at 07:42 AM • top

What a week!  And to think, the Democrats could have had a woman on their ticked and….  What’s with these Sarah’s.  SFIF has their Sarah and the Republicans have their Sarah.  The other side has their…..?  Guess the difference is—LIPSTICK.

[72] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 09-04-2008 at 07:42 AM • top

I noticed that many of the left leaning pundits were talking about how “mean” and “sarcastic” the 2 speeches were.  Thought that was interesting.

[73] Posted by Looking for Leaders on 09-04-2008 at 07:59 AM • top

Believe me, my wife and I raised a son and daughter with some trepidation and heartache, but they both turned out very well indeed.  Our son is an engineer….as is our daughter in law….and our daughter….who is experiencing the same problems we had, and doing very well….is a working mom. 

Governor Palin’s speech was honest, blunt, and direct.  She didn’t pull her punches, and she’s the kind of candidate that I respect.  She’s a breath of fresh air….something very badly needed in Washington politics these days!

[74] Posted by Cennydd on 09-04-2008 at 08:12 AM • top

Watched the speech last night and saw the Palin family be seated.  The boyfriend did not look happy to be there.

True enough but I wouldn’t have been very comfortable up there in front of that crowd and a national TV audience either and I didn’t knock up the candidates daughter.

That was a very impressive speech.

It was indeed. I was most impressed. We do need to remember, though, that it was a first inning lead-off homer and there are still 8 innings left. The rest of the game is going to get real interesting. I especially look forward to her debate with Biden. I hope she tears him a new one. Fot the first time in this lllooonnngg campaign, I feel I can vote without holding my nose.

the snarkster™

[75] Posted by the snarkster on 09-04-2008 at 08:28 AM • top

You know, I have a lot of respect for the daughter’s boyfriend.  Can you even IMAGINE getting your girlfriend pregnant, then the next thing you know you are at the Republican National Convention on National TV for all to see?  A “hat tip” to him for stepping up and being a man about it.

[76] Posted by B. Hunter on 09-04-2008 at 08:29 AM • top

Sarah Hey -
Not voting for McCain IS a vote for Obama.  It is as simple as that.  So if you believe that ultra-liberal Obama is a better choice to lead our country than not-conservative-enough McCain, well, I guess you have your logic worked out for that.

[77] Posted by CarolynP on 09-04-2008 at 08:38 AM • top

If we get Obama, there is little reason to think that we won’t get him for 8 years.  Freedom of Choice Act, ‘Full Inclusion’ in the military, say good bye to the Defense of Marriage Act, say good bye to the Born Alive Act… 

In the end, after a decade of liberal rule defining the national debate, we will see a country that is far more liberal, and even if the GOP has “found itself” and has become “True Conservative” they will wither in the face of a liberalized electorate.

[78] Posted by AndrewA on 09-04-2008 at 08:49 AM • top

Sarah Palin represents the conservative ideals the Republican Party was based upon. God, family and country. Having raised two dughters who have made mistakes, as many of us have in life, I can empathize and thank God that they have grown and matured and found our Lord.

McCain (not my ideal pick but better that the alternatives) stands well to be a caretaker president for 4 years. In those 4 years, Palin will have the opportunity to broaden her knowledge from local and state leadership and issues to national and international positioning her well for the Oval Office in 2012 or 2016.

So my concern about voting for the lesser of evils now provides an opportunity to vote for the future. And a vote for anyone other than the McCain - Palin ticket is a vote for Obama - Biden. I view the voting for an independent or the latter in the same light as voting for the current occupant of 815 2nd Avenue.

God bless, strengthen and guide America. Bless us abundantly with the ideals and principles we share and rekindle those which have been lost or set aside.

[79] Posted by Fisherman on 09-04-2008 at 09:08 AM • top

Very astute, Fisherman [79]. I think, however,  that McCain’s choice of Palin shows that he will accomplish more   than simply be a caretaker president. Having chosen Palin, I am very eager to see who his court nominees will be.  How about the term “stillpoint president?” The still point is, afterall, the point of change in direction.

[80] Posted by Anglicat on 09-04-2008 at 09:36 AM • top

I was thrilled by Palin’s speech. At one point I had thought of voting for Obama, but that was do to what I considered the importance of braking the color barrier, a red herring issue really. I’ve almost always voted Republican, but I have been so disappointed by our poor governance and our scandals. Now I feel rejuvenated and encouraged. Watching Palin gave me a sense that the future of the Republican party may be bright indeed. I was very proud of her, and her family.Breathless…

[81] Posted by FrVan on 09-04-2008 at 09:38 AM • top

Alaskan Culture is something you understand best when you live there awhile, not just flying to a fishing camp or a cruise on the inside passage. I may have been a mt, boy in CO, but as a “chechako” in Juneau, I observed some major differences:

Alaska truly is our last frontier. Think survival issues first and what that takes. Liberals think they’re successful if they make it three years in Santa Fe. Ha! Survival is a full time job and it is one that makes you thankful for a real community where people put it on the line constantly for their families and neighbors.

Second, teenagers in AK are adults when graduated from HS. One is provided the tools to survive and make a life. Until 1957, the only AK school for post secondary education was in Fairbanks and was engineering and mining focused. I didn’t even hear a word about. If you had lots of $$$$ it was WA, OR, Stanford, MIT or Notra Dame. I was preparing for civil engineering and a West Point appointment.

[Dr. Ebright, former president of Baker University, visited our home in ‘57 at Elkhart IN, to raise money for Alaska Methodist University in Anvhorage. It opened closely after my HS graduation in ‘59, and changed it’s name to AK Pacific University.]

Shop taught skills you could use following graduation in a job or apprentice program. We learned rappelling from the gym balcony. Everyone passed swimming their freshman year or you didn’t advance. The local Juneau freshman were more mature than the HS graduates in my class in IN. And if you learned to use the tools each year you had a shot a good scholarship. JDHS graduates had a home school education inside the Golden Bear walls. Juneau was home, probably forever. Alaskans have the same values and expectations because they face the same challenge of survival. A lots more higher education opportunities may exist, but don’t think of Bristol and Levi like the they were suburban teenagers in the lower 48.

Let us look at our Biblical and Anglican understanding of marriage. If their intention is to be husband and wife, then in God’[s eyes they were married when they became one flesh. The ministers in marriage are the husband and wife and they have consummated their intention.

Under AK state law, Bristol at 17 would have to have both of her parent’s signatures to apply for a marriage license.

A priest, after counsel and examination for impediments to a Christian marriage would decide whether to preside or not to preside in our dual civil and religious system at a public civil marriage and the blessing of the Church.

The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Santa Fe is requiring thorough marriage preparation and are taking all the time needed to provide the tools a couple needs. It is common to see couples without a civil marriage being married with one and sometimes two or more children. They are preparing couples for lifetime marriages. They are starting at the right place.

[82] Posted by Bob Maxwell+ on 09-04-2008 at 09:39 AM • top

Unfortunately, I’m going to have agree with several posters above. If you don’t vote or vote for a candidate that has no chance of winning, you are voting for Obama/Biden by default. Face it, you are far better off voting for a candidate that doesn’t quite give you all you want than you are allowing a candidate to win that gives you nothing. And make no mistake about it, if Obama/Biden wins, we will be looking at the unrestrained abortion/murder of millions more babies.

In an ideal world, Ron Paul would have a viable candidacy and I would vote for him in a flash, Sarah Palin notwithstanding. But he doesn’t and nothing John McCain could do would be worse than we are likely to get from Obama. I was going to hold my nose and vote for McCain anyway but I Sarah Palin makes him a lot more palatable.

I know my advice and $3.75 will get you a grande mocha near about anywhere but here it is anyway: Think about what you are doing when you vote for a throwaway candidate or don’t vote at all. If the whole pie is not attainable, take the three quarters pie. You can always go for the whole pie in 4 years and three quarters beats the hell out no pie at all.

the snarkster™

[83] Posted by the snarkster on 09-04-2008 at 10:21 AM • top

Obviously, I have gotten here late in the discussion.  I love Stand Firm.  I am a conservative.  As a priest in the AMiA, who left TEC three years ago, I was fed up with the liberal agenda, which is very pro-choice.  If we believe that all life is created by God, we can be nothing, except pro-life.  To vote for the socially liberal policies of the Democratic Party means we set ourselves up not only for very social programs in government, but a socially liberal Supreme Court.  Socially liberal courts tend to push God out of society in the name of separation of church and state, and have made way for a very pro-abortion country.  In 2002, over 1.3 babies were legally aborted…in the name of womens’ rights.  We need to ask if this is where the Gospel is sending us.

[84] Posted by kathyz1975 on 09-04-2008 at 10:48 AM • top

By the way, the last post was from my wife’s computer.  I am not KathyZ, but Anglicanfathertom.

[85] Posted by kathyz1975 on 09-04-2008 at 10:49 AM • top

From a candid Washington Post columnist apologizing for underestimating Palin:

“Palin also got a non-verbal assist from the TV cameraman who focused on her little six-year-old daughter, Piper, as she kissed and caressed her disabled baby brother Trig. I don’t know about you, but I found this image irresistibly cute and surprisingly reassuring on the issue of whether Palin is wise to take on both a vice presidential campaign and the tumult that is her family life. Now I get it: The whole bunch of ’ em are going to raise Trig.”

He gets it. Family.

[86] Posted by Going Home on 09-04-2008 at 11:05 AM • top

Sar4ah Palin exhibits all the wisdom and grace necessary to combine motherhood and a career.  She has more courage in her little finger than Obama and Biden have in their whole bodies.  She walks the talk.  It would have been very easy for her to have her last baby aborted and to encourage her daughter to abort her first grandchild.  She did neither, but rather chose life for both of these pregnancies.  I give Governor Palin a lot of credit for making the right choice rather than the convenient one in both instances.  Both of those pregnancies could have been quietly aborted under false names and the public would never have known.  Sarah Palin lives her faith.  She is exactly the kind of person we need——courageous and wise.

[87] Posted by terrafirma on 09-04-2008 at 12:22 PM • top

RE: “Not voting for McCain IS a vote for Obama.”

Well, saying it over and over doesn’t make it so, Carolyn P.  Even saying it with *emphasis* doesn’t make it so. 

Attempted manipulation, maybe.  But not reality.  ; > )

RE: “So if you believe that ultra-liberal Obama is a better choice to lead our country than not-conservative-enough McCain, well, I guess you have your logic worked out for that.”

Absolutely, I do.  As I’ve explained for the past six months on this blog, I believe that having a party in the US that nominates presidential candidates that are conservative is a good idea. 

And that if there is no such party any more, then many conservatives will end up leaving the Republican Party and moving over to the arduous and lengthy task of building another third party.

Do you really really want that, CarolynP?  *Is* that what you want?  Do you believe that a party that claims a conservative platform, yet nominates non-conservatives, is “good for the country” long term?

RE: “There hasn’t been a new political party emerge since the Whigs collapsed in 1854.  It isn’t going to happen again anytime soon.”

Agreed—that’s why it would be about a fifty year process, in which, given the Republican Party nominating non-conservative candidates for President, would result in a bleed from that party of conservatives fed up with it. 

Once McCain is elected and the Republican Party gets the “go-ahead” to continue nominating non-conservatives who don’t even support with their votes the party platform, every four years more conservatives will need to travel the third-party route.  But as you say, and as I’ve said, it will be a long long journey, and because of the Republican Party’s actions, will lead to some unfortunate leaders in the meantime. 

RE: “Post-Sarah Palin, I don’t see how you make that argument. Palin is arguably the most conservative candidate among potential Republican candidates.”

I’m afraid it’s quite easy to make that argument.  Back six months ago as I studied and pondered my own voting decisions, I recognized that McCain would be desperate to somehow counter his own voting and lobbying record which was in contradiction to so many many key planks of the conservative platform . . . and that one of his tactics would most likely be to select a good conservative VP nominee.  I thought very carefully about whether there was a VP out there who could counter McCain’s non-conservative principles . . . and recognized that there wasn’t.  The VP is, in the end, a non-powerful position, and I came to the conclusion that there was nobody out there, then, who could adequately counter McCain’s unfortunate voting record.

As Rush Limbaugh ironically said, in regards to McCain’s much-vaunted “maverick” votes against conservative agenda items, when McCain called for the support of “fellow Republicans” . . . “Oh no, Mr. McCain, we’re *all* mavericks now.” 

At least, in Anglicat’s response to my pointing out “a vote for McCain is a vote for more presidential nominees like McCain by the Republican Party” there is refreshing honesty and somebody willing to be truthful on this thread.

Most people who are die-hard Republicans [“my party, right or wrong”] don’t actually mind the Republican Party not nominating a conservative for President.  To those who don’t mind the Republican Party nominating non-conservative presidential candidates like McCain over the next scores of years, it’s not a big deal.

But to those conservatives who need to have conservative presidential nominees to vote for, it is of course a big deal.

It’s obvious that some people on this thread would have voted, for instance, for Hillary Clinton over Obama, if the two “main party choices” were Hillary and Obama.

I, however, would not.

Finally, Prophet Micaiah .  . . “SFIF has their Sarah and the Republicans have their Sarah.  The other side has their…..?  Guess the difference is—LIPSTICK.”

I hope that you are not saying that the difference between me and Sarah Palin is that she wears lipstick and that I am merely a lipstickless pit bull.

; > )

I’ll have you know that I would never be so fashionless as to forget lipstick, some bright cheery colors, and a fetching hat. 

I also put lots of lotion on my paws. 

It never pays to have dry pads.  And soft paws make all the difference in the world.

[88] Posted by Sarah on 09-04-2008 at 01:33 PM • top

Well, saying it over and over doesn’t make it so, Carolyn P.

Well, gee, Sarah, at the risk of being banned for impertinence - how many times did I say it?  (hint: once).
And if I might be so bold, your making grand statements about building a new political party over the next 50 years doesn’t necessarily make that so, either.
And, assuming that people not named Matt or Sarah are still allowed to have opinions on this blog, some of us may very well consider John McCain a conservative.  Just because you don’t, doesn’t necessarily make it so.

[89] Posted by CarolynP on 09-04-2008 at 01:41 PM • top

What I find disturbing about the 2008 party slates is there hasn’t been any real effort to “balance” the ticket in either party. Just more polarization ahead. I find that both wearying and unfortunate.

[90] Posted by oscewicee on 09-04-2008 at 01:52 PM • top

oscewicee you’re right about that.  Very weary and unfortunate.  I wonder if we will ever see statesmen in power again, who truly do what’s best for the country regardless of their party.

[91] Posted by CarolynP on 09-04-2008 at 01:54 PM • top

CarolynP, I’m afraid it will take a catastrophe to bring out true statesmen again.

[92] Posted by oscewicee on 09-04-2008 at 01:55 PM • top

Again. Thank you Snarkster. More great stuff and continue.

Sarah, I took you for a pretty astute person, but I might have been wrong. Sarah, I agree with you on 99.9% of things. This is that .1%. Considering that SF spends most of its time in the Political Periphery I thought that there might be an education behind the posts and discussions in the periphery. 

Speaking as a Political Scientist( BA, MA and Doctoral Student), electoral politics in a 2 party system has proved to bring forth that a vote for a third party kills the underdog. This was first seen in the election of John Quincy Adams.  But most notably Clinton v Bush v Perot, because of people who would have normally voted for the Republican pulled ranks and voted for Perot, Bill Clinton became an 8 year idiot. This year,my first to stay out of political combative consulting, I have seriously thought about Bob Barr. The issue is he is not really a conservative either.  So we have a conservative VP candidate in Sarah Palin and a Fiscal Conservative Social Moderate in John McCain, (Who is PRO LIFE) it really is a no brainer here. But I can provide you with plenty of books that prove the point being made here that you refuse to except. But then again Sarah, if you did not say it , it cant be true.  I want to add again, I agree with you 99.9% of time, even as an Anglo-Catholic, how ever when you dive; you dive bomb hard. 
Politics has become an emotional based instead of issue based diametral. So I understand you and others unwillingness to except these facts, because it plucks on emotion.  The point is voting record speaks miles.  The voting record of Obama/Biden is one that will not only make most here regurgitate but would even push forward the ideas put forth by TEC, considering that their PAC is throwing money to the Democratic ticket. The voting record of McCain/Palin is solidly fiscal conservative. His social policy is 90% along the platform of the conservatives. The issue is that the 10% he is not in line cause lots of dissension. One because he crosses the isle and two he even works with the Kennedy’s to get things done.  So there truly is not a choice on voting this year.

[93] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-04-2008 at 02:13 PM • top

“Sarah, I took you for a pretty astute person, but I might have been wrong.” Just because you disagree with someone 0.1% of the time does not necessarily mean they are any less astute. I wish I were half as astute, and able to express myself, as that young woman.

[94] Posted by FrVan on 09-04-2008 at 02:20 PM • top

FrVan, I may have been a little mean spirited. She is a very astute person.  Just not in this case. I forgot to point out that it was just this case. I also was trying to point out that politics has been changed to pluck the strings of emotion.  The Dems and Reps alike don’t have a problem with spoiler candidates, especially when it helps them win. I want to apologize for being so mean spirited. That was not the point I was trying to make.

[95] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-04-2008 at 02:33 PM • top

No need to apologize to me, I was just trying to suck up to her… smile

[96] Posted by FrVan on 09-04-2008 at 02:36 PM • top

Perhaps a true conservative third party could be created in fifty years if all of the conservatives quit voting for the Republican Party.  Is it worth sacrificing the governance of this nation for the rest of our lifetimes in the hope of such an outcome? 

I also wonder if we would agree on what such a party would look like. Would it endorse the small government, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage libertarianism expressed by Barry Goldwater, Jr. (a leading Ron Paul supporter) and now endorsed by the Libertarian Party of Bob Barr?  Would it drift toward an oblique racism found in many of the regional splinter groups in the South (the “Council of Conservative Citizens”)?  Perhaps the “Fortress America” protectionism espoused by Pat Buchanan?  Or would it be the type of in-your-face Christian conservative movement espoused by Roy Moore, the “Ten Commandments” Judge? 

When we speak, hypothetically, of our dream conservative party, what are we talking about?

[97] Posted by Going Home on 09-04-2008 at 03:17 PM • top

Thank you Going Home.  You just nailed it.

[98] Posted by CarolynP on 09-04-2008 at 03:19 PM • top

Pardon me, but I’m confused.  When I’ve voted in past elections, my ballot looks like this:

Presidential Ballot

- I wish to vote FOR John McCain.
- I wish to vote FOR Barack Obama.
- I wish to vote FOR (Nader, Baldwin, or some other Third-Party candidate).

But according to some commenter’s, a non-vote for McCain is really a vote for Obama.  This suggests that the ballot we will see in a couple of months will look like this:

- I DO NOT wish to vote for John McCain.
- I DO NOT wish to vote for Barack Obama.
- I DO NOT wish to vote for a Third-Party candidate. 

Which doesn’t make sense, since no positive choice is offered.  Perhaps the ballot will look like this:

- I DO NOT wish to vote for McCain, THEREFORE I wish to vote FOR Obama. 
- I DO NOT wish to vote for Obama, THEREFORE I wish to vote FOR McCain. 
- I’m a conservative who won’t vote for McCain, THEREFORE I wish to apply my Third-Party vote for Obama.
- I’m a liberal who won’t vote for Obama,  THEREFORE I wish to apply my Third-Party vote for McCain. 

Maybe they already mentioned this on Larry King or something, and I was sleeping.  Or perhaps I’ve been in too big of a hurry to upgrade my TV to notice the change in the ballot format.  If so, would someone please enlighten me?  Because I don’t see the preferred moral argument upheld, based on the wording of the first ballot. 

Thanks,

[99] Posted by Moot on 09-04-2008 at 03:22 PM • top

No need to apologize to me, I was just trying to suck up to her…

Good luck, but I don’t think that works with Sarah though I’m sure she will let you know her ownself. Sarah is nothing if not forthright.

I will have to agree with johnnyreb though. I almost always agree with Sarah (99.9% may be a tad strong so just leave it at almost) but I think she is dead wrong on this issue. I can assure you if enough people think like her (and Matt+) on this, come January we will be watching the Obama/Biden Inauguration on TV and wondering what the hell went wrong.

the snarkster™

[100] Posted by the snarkster on 09-04-2008 at 03:31 PM • top

Going Home. You make a good point.  The reason this country was founded as a non party system, that lead to the “Factions’ of Federalists and AntiFederalist, was the system of augmented Monarchy of Great Britain.  The multi party system in UK is one that alliances make or break an issue.  The parties in the US are polarized and typically have lead to disenfranchised voters.  That is now the nature of the beast.  We can thank Karl Rove for this.  I am a fighter for the centrists, in politics only. Over the last 5 election cycles there has been a change in the parties and the way they conduct business in Washington.  More parties will only move that way in the end because Teddy Roosevelt tried to add a 3rd party when he saw the tides changing. It of course did not last, and of course I am pontificating, which is what students do. the main issue is that the only conceivable vote is to vote McCain/Palin. Otherwise, your vote will be disenfranchised.  America can suffer from the 3rd party spoiler votes.  I am bouncing all over on this issue, but the key here is not to let a pebble in your shoe make you throw the shoe away.  I say that because on 90% of the issues McCain is the only viable candidate.  The Pebble is that 10%.

[101] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-04-2008 at 03:34 PM • top

Perhaps a true conservative third party could be created in fifty years if all of the conservatives quit voting for the Republican Party.  Is it worth sacrificing the governance of this nation for the rest of our lifetimes in the hope of such an outcome?

Good question, Going Home. I trust those who want a viable third party are doing more than voting if they want it to happen. For myself, I’d just like to see a big shakedown in both the parties we have. That would take some work, too.

[102] Posted by oscewicee on 09-04-2008 at 03:36 PM • top

It of course did not last, and of course I am pontificating, which is what students do. the main issue is that the only conceivable vote is to vote McCain/Palin. Otherwise, your vote will be disenfranchised.

Hmm.. Still confused.  If we vote Third-Party in November 2008, then we won’t have the right to vote Third-Party in November 2008?  That seems like a contradiction.

[103] Posted by Moot on 09-04-2008 at 03:52 PM • top

[#88] Sarah

that’s why it would be about a fifty year process, in which, given the Republican Party nominating non-conservative candidates for President, would result in a bleed from that party of conservatives fed up with it.

It took slavery to destroy the Whigs.  Abortion is a terrific evil, but it does not have the footprint of slavery.  That issue was sufficient to start a war, so it makes sense that it could also recast the political landscape.  What today could generate that much destructive force?  There is simply no issue on the horizon that could bring down an established party.

Our problem is not the Republican party, but that ‘Conservative’ is being redefined in the culture to the disadvantage of social conservatives.  It becomes much more libertarian as the influence of religion recedes - it has become private money, private choices, with fear of downward mobility for leavening.  Our country is afflicted with the same secular virus that has killed every other Western nation on Earth.  The Republican Party will follow the culture on this.  They don’t listen to us, because they can’t win with our issues.  They pay lip service to motivate the base, but they spend no political capital to advance its causes.

The increasingly libertine character of our country cannot be fixed by nominating more conservative candidates.  In fact, the increasingly libertine character of our country is driving the selection of candidates like McCain.  It can only be fixed by altering the world view of an increasingly libertine population.  Don’t worry about whether the Republicans nominate McCain in 2008.  To reverse the tide, we must re-evangelize the electorate of 2012, or 2024.  Then our efforts will bear fruit.

In the meantime, I want a president who can at least be trusted with the lives of American soldiers.  For all my heartburn with McCain, that is why I will vote for him.

carl

[104] Posted by carl on 09-04-2008 at 03:54 PM • top

Also, i would like to point out that the religious Conservative candidates put forth by the Republican Party have been FISCALLY LIBERAL. They moved to the republican party when the Democrats stop support Christian Values. This country has collected mpre tax revenue since the tax cut. The problems is the amount of spending these former democrats have been spending.  Also, Rush Limbaugh burns McCain because he voted against the Tax cuts on a Fiscally Conservative moral principal.  That the Tax Cuts will bring in more revenue, however if you don’t cut spending it is a useless point. Which is true.
IF people want to bring the Party of republicans back to the both fiscal and social conservative point. We need to do what the Christian Coalition did in the mid 80’s. Take over the Precinct Conventions and the County Conventions and State Conventions, and put the Platform in Line with these conservative beliefs.  The Platform of the Republicans has changed to be a fundamentally theocracy ideal, dumping the Fiscal issue.  Which is important.  The Contract of America was a great peace of Legislative points. The issue is after the ousting of Newt Gingrich for immorality the Social conservatives tossed out the fiscal side of the Contract.  If the Republicans would have followed through with the Contract, the Republicans would have a strong hold on the political system in America. So take back the party by actually working in the Platform process not by starting a new party.  The american public has become ambivalent and take their vote for granted. It takes being involved at the grass roots level to bring change.  The system because it is for the people by the people is a bottom up system. Take advantage of that and work to change it instead of griping.
  The same way SF is doing a great job to show that there is no hope in TEC.  Thats because most of the Clergy and the Laity sat on there hands and quit learning what the faith was about and just stayed complacent. Now the libs have taken over. the problem with this is that we cannot change TEC because they have changed the landscape of the Church. StandFirm should be commended for putting the complacent members of the Liberal Church aware of these issues, and because they put them forward they are helping ot bring about change.

The same can be done in America. It will take mobilizing and taking over the grass roots conventions.

[105] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-04-2008 at 03:55 PM • top

Moot (103) IT is not a contradiction but also is. It marginalizes their vote because it goes against the very idea of what they are trying to accomplish.  It also proves that there fundamental right to vote, in that excise, provides no substantial proof they excised their right. This is because it is like using chewing gum to plug a hole in a dam. It does nothing to fix the problem. IN some ways makes the problem worse.

[106] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-04-2008 at 04:00 PM • top

Nice post Carl! True conservatism, in the historical sense was for a weak federal government, fewer taxes, less spending, and states rights. Try to find a “conservative” who stands for any of that today. “Fiscal” and “Social”  conservatives are fairly recent developements.

the snarkster™

[107] Posted by the snarkster on 09-04-2008 at 04:05 PM • top

No johnnyreb,

‘Disenfranchisment’ refers to taking away someone’s right to vote.  That’s the word you choose, and it doesn’t fit the situation.  Choosing to vote Third-Party and then voting Third-Party is completely contrary to a disenfranchisement. 

It marginalizes their vote

That’s a better word, but fails as well.  It matters not what you think marginalizes my vote;  only what I think marginalizes it, standing in the booth with the ballot and God.  I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit into the social scientist theory of the month club, or a spreadsheet, but there you have it. 

Carl’s almost got it.  We’re already sitting in judgment.  You people seem to think that something less than a National Sackcloth and Ashes month is going to nip it in the bud. 

It’s here, right now.  And there’ll be more.  And more.  And more.  And more.  Under those circumstances, there’s nothing left to do, except revert to an absolute frame of reference. 

Four or eight years from now, ya’ll will be climbing over dead bodies to vote for someone worse than Giuliani.

[108] Posted by Moot on 09-04-2008 at 04:34 PM • top

I’d prefer it if McCain were more conservative too but Sarah Palin checks that block nicely.  Our system is largely bipartisan in nature(i.e. with the Democrats and Republicans dominating) and that is also reflected in the three branches of government.  However, the whole system does work better when bipartisanship is more in play and arguing/fighting/bickering, at the expense of and to the detriment of the American people, is kept to a minimum.  John McCain, for all his faults, can work to this end through his own nature of being a more moderate conservative, more so than can a stronger conservative or an extreme liberal(note the case-in-point, as we speak). 

I do not believe that packing up your Republican toys and going home and voting for a Democrat bordering on Socialist is any sort of solution to one’s crisis of conscience.  In my view in that particular case, abstinence would have more integrity. 

And, on the personal subject of Governor Palin’s daughter, I’ll post here what I posted over on Kendall’s blog.  As long as the governor has in no way lied to the face of the American public OR misrepresented herself(I don’t believe she has), and no one in the Palin family has broken the law(they have not, except for an ancient DUI arrest), then what they do personally to raise their children or divide the labor in their family is no one’s business but THEIRS. 

I for one have great respect for all in the picture for NOT aborting Bristol’s baby.

[109] Posted by Passing By on 09-04-2008 at 04:40 PM • top

Well Moot as a the definition of disenfranchise states in its adjective form it says marginalize.  Wrong.  About climbing over.  I am a Fiscal Conservative and Social Moderate. I am against Abortion in Every Form. Against Marriage of Gays and against VGR.  I vote my conscience every time I walk in to the Poll.  The reason I am no longer a Political Combative is because the idea of a true Conservative that Snarkster pointed out does not exist. The only way for it to exist again. Is to quit whining over who peed on your Post Toasties and go back to the Precinct Conventions and institute change. The same way the Religious Right did in the mid 1980’s. In the 1992 election is when there was a differentiation in Conservative to Fiscal and Social.

Also if you look at the vote in which is cast across the spectrum the marginalization DOES take place.  Emotion should be out of Politics. Intellect was the norm before the 1980’s. The reason you spout attacks of my view as a social scientist, is because it is an emotional ploy. Which I despise making politics and emotional ploy.  I for one believe action should be taken. But until that action takes place and people quit whining and do something you are right. However instead go back and work in the Bottom Up Nature of the game. Get your friends and family to get in the game. Mobilize change.

[110] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-04-2008 at 04:49 PM • top

“Despise” ?  My, what an emotionally charged word. 

The reason you spout attacks of my view as a social scientist, is because it is an emotional ploy.

Actually, jr, I’ve used rational arguments in taking to task the theory that “a non-vote for X is a vote for Y” ; an emotional, irrational, and manipulative “argument” if there ever was one.  Projecting your own reason onto my actions, well.. you know the rest.

[111] Posted by Moot on 09-04-2008 at 04:59 PM • top

Moot,
I appreciate your views and I would appreciate you not referring to me as junior.  That is a definite attack and I have not made any attack on you.  I said I despise Politics becoming an emotional ploy.  Not that I despise you or anything else. So I would appreciate you not attacking me. Considering I have done no such thing.  I am just saying from my view and many others who study this stuff for a living. That we have not been able to find a single scenario that makes a vote against the 2 parties in any way useful to bring about change.  To bring change start at the grass roots level and take an hour out of election night go to the precinct convention which is held every two years and change the platforms. Some semblance of change can be seen if this is done during primary time in two election cycles. At the state level it can have profound changes sooner.

[112] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-04-2008 at 05:10 PM • top

Hi johnnyreb,

Actually, it wasn’t an attack; rather it was meant as an abbreviation.  Had I thought it would be taken as an attack, I would not have abbreviated. 

My Dutch grandmother once addressed my Mother as “horr,” which loosely translated, means “My dear,” in Dutch.  The word sounds like our slang term for prostitute.  It was about 10 years after Grandma’s passing that Mom and the rest of us figured it out. 

...And here I am making the same sort of mistake. 

Thanks for the heads-up.  I apologize.  It won’t happen again.

[113] Posted by Moot on 09-04-2008 at 05:30 PM • top

Well it has become a condescending term or nickname today. No need to apologize but thank you. smile  Now its time to watch the convention and regurgitate.

[114] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-04-2008 at 05:36 PM • top

Fr. Matt., you are a dear also.  I love southern baptists, too.  Lord knows, I know enough of ‘em.  However, I am not ready to join them, by a long shot.  Those in your generation can be comforted by the knowledge that they have come a long way since I was your age.  Let’s just hope they know when they have gone far enough.  Indications in TEC are that they don’t.  Wasn’t bishop spong raised Baptist?

[115] Posted by GB on 09-04-2008 at 05:48 PM • top

GB, Oh I don’t know. I suppose I’m not ready to join em either. But I also think its probably not a good idea for members of the denomination with non-celibate gay bishops, neo-pagan wizards, Muslim priests, universalist Presiding Bishops and, well, John Spong, to look down their noses at too many other denominations…glass houses and all that.

[116] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-04-2008 at 06:58 PM • top

It is most certainly going to get ugly.


Oh yeah.  It already has.  One liberal blog (hecklerspray) said Bristol Palin is “an underage teenage slut who can’t keep in in her pants.”

Disgusting

[117] Posted by The Pilgrim on 09-05-2008 at 05:03 AM • top

I have to agree with you about that, Matt.  I quit saying bad things about them a long time ago.  Now I try to find common ground.  As a Continuing Anglican, I remind them that my church produced the King James Version.  So far I haven’t received any silly comebacks on that one.

[118] Posted by GB on 09-05-2008 at 10:33 AM • top

RE: “Well, gee, Sarah, at the risk of being banned for impertinence - how many times did I say it?  (hint: once).”

Hi CarolynP . . . a bunch of people have been saying it for the past six months.  I don’t mean to imply that you said it more than once, however, and I agree—you only said it once here.

And you haven’t gone off on any off-topic rants, which are the cause of most bannings around here, with the close second being vulgarity and terrible language.  So I think you’re safe.  However . . . if you neatly segueway in this thread into the evils of the 1979 Prayer Book, Women’s Ordination, or converting to Rome . . . well . . . ; > )

RE: “And if I might be so bold, your making grand statements about building a new political party over the next 50 years doesn’t necessarily make that so, either.”

I completely agree.  It will be a long, tough haul—very challenging, and not at all certain.

RE: “And, assuming that people not named Matt or Sarah are still allowed to have opinions on this blog . . . “

Heh—you can tell that only Matt and Sarah are allowed to have opinions at StandFirm—because we’re the *only* ones commenting here of the 118 comments.  ; > )

RE: ” . . . . some of us may very well consider John McCain a conservative.”

I’m with you.  Just as some may very well consider Hillary Clinton a conservative, or Frank Griswold a “traditionalist” or “orthodox.”  People are free—as we’ve learned over the years—to define words however they please.

But let’s examine McCain’s record on some key conservative issues.

—He has vigorously opposed drilling in Alaska, through his votes and rhetoric.
—He has vigorously supported the whole “humans responsible for global warming” scam, and wants to legislate reductions in supposed “greenhouse gases”
—His McCain-Feingold campaign finance restriction plan was devastating to grassroots efforts to develop some sort of voice in the political process.
—His immigration proposal to essentially reward the millions of illegal immigrants into our country by fast-tracking them to citizen status was a horrendous plan—and he even voted to allow them to participate in Social Security back in 06.
—He repeatedly voted against the Bush tax cuts, which were one of the few solid things that Bush did right over his two terms.  He has come—oddly—to the notion in the past year that he would not *reverse* those tax cuts, but he consistently opposed the Bush tax cuts when they were under debate.
—He supports federal funding for research on embryos, and actually voted to fund research using tissue from aborted fetuses.
—And . . . he helped kill the gay marriage amendment in the Senate by his vote on cloture [June 06] and through his rhetoric opposed any sort of amendment formally defining marriage as heterosexual.

JohnnyReb,

RE: “a Fiscal Conservative Social Moderate in John McCain . . . The voting record of McCain/Palin is solidly fiscal conservative.”

I disagree—see above.  But then . . .it doesn’t matter does it, to those who will vote Republican, no matter what.  As long as the Republican nominee is only a teensy bit to the right of the Democrat nominee . . . that’s all that matters.

Going Home:

“When we speak, hypothetically, of our dream conservative party, what are we talking about?”

Hmmm . . . as I’ve pointed out, I was willing to vote for Dole, so I certainly don’t need a “pure” conservative.  But an ideal conservative candidate is one who believes that the government should perform those duties that the Constitution allows for, and none other—in other words, a far smaller and less intrusive Federal government.  That would mean BOTH fiscal and social conservative.  It would mean limited regulation, limited taxes such that individuals may have as much economic freedom as possible, support of property rights, AND a willingness to go through the appropriate Constitutional processes when social values are threatened, which would include, of course, clarifying the meaning of the word “life” [for the unborn] and the legal definition of marrage.  It would mean protecting our borders from invasion, and it would mean ceasing to reward illegal or irresponsible individual behavior of whatever nature.  It would mean allowing human freedom, as much as possible within the bounds of the Constitution—and allowing the *consequences* of that human freedom.

But again . . . people can define “conservative” however they like.  After all, plenty of Episcopal clergy do that.

Moot: #99—heh, nice one!  ; > )

Snarkster:
RE: “I can assure you if enough people think like her (and Matt+) on this, come January we will be watching the Obama/Biden Inauguration on TV and wondering what the hell went wrong.”

Actually, if they’ve been reading StandFirm they won’t be wondering what went wrong—they’ll be thinking “oh my word—Matt and Sarah were right—there really were a lot of conservatives who wouldn’t vote for him.  Guess the Republican Party really screwed up.  Hope they don’t do that next time around!”

; > )

Carl: Very interesting comments.

You ask “What today could generate that much destructive force?  There is simply no issue on the horizon that could bring down an established party.”

I’m afraid there is an unfortunate answer to that.  I think what could generate that destructive force—only much slower and more painful therefore—is that conservatives like me and Matt move away from voting Republican.  As more and more of us do that, you’ve got to options: 1) the Republican Party tacks back conservative again or 2) the Republican Party loses—alot, and often, and consistently at the national level, and they are relegated to the status of the Tories.

Johnny Reb:
RE: “It marginalizes their vote because it goes against the very idea of what they are trying to accomplish.”

What if one thing we want to accomplish—among others—is to weaken the Republican Party—along with voting our conscience?

RE: “IF people want to bring the Party of republicans back to the both fiscal and social conservative point.  . . . So take back the party by actually working in the Platform process not by starting a new party.”

I’m not a fan of the Republican Party.  I don’t love it enough to try to “reform” it—I’ll leave that to the True Republicans who love their party no matter what—many of which seem to be on this very thread.

Moot: of anything said on this thread, I love what you said in these two sentences, and—unless something really amazing and miraculous occurs—agree with its eventual prediction.

“It’s here, right now.  And there’ll be more.  And more.  And more.  And more.  Under those circumstances, there’s nothing left to do, except revert to an absolute frame of reference.

Four or eight years from now, ya’ll will be climbing over dead bodies to vote for someone worse than Giuliani.

[119] Posted by Sarah on 09-05-2008 at 10:45 AM • top

“AND a willingness to go through the appropriate Constitutional processes when social values are threatened, which would include, of course, clarifying the meaning of the word “life” [for the unborn] and the legal definition of marrage.”

The traditional, small government conservative of old would argue that abortion laws should be left to the states, as it was pre-Rowe.  If that happened, many states, including our largest, including California and New York, would clearly authorize it.

So I agree with you (I think), that this is an area not left to state legislation; one where the constitution should be amended. 

But what other federal programs would we roll back to get back to the small government “essential” functions? Eliminate Medicare? Medicaid? Social Security?  When you get to the nitty gritty, it is very hard.

[120] Posted by Going Home on 09-05-2008 at 11:49 AM • top

Actually, if they’ve been reading StandFirm they won’t be wondering what went wrong—they’ll be thinking “oh my word—Matt and Sarah were right—there really were a lot of conservatives who wouldn’t vote for him.  Guess the Republican Party really screwed up.  Hope they don’t do that next time around!”


Sarah, think about what you are saying. If Obama/Biden wins, given the power of the incumbency, we can figure on at least 8 years of liberal ascendancy, assuming that Obama doesn’t turn out to be as inept as Bush41 and bomb out after one term. That is a lot judges appointed, a lot of taxes raised, and yes, a lot babies killed. In case you haven’t noticed, the Dems already control both houses of Congress and look to increase their majorities this time around. Do you really want to put Obama/Biden into office with veto proof majorities in both houses of Congress just because you don’t believe McCain is conservative enough? For the record, I don’t think he is consersative enough either but nothing, I mean NOTHING, McCain/Palin could possibly do would be as bad as what total control of the country by the Democrats would bring us. I shudder to even think about it.

I luvya babe but we’re going to have to square off on this one.

the snarkster™

[121] Posted by the snarkster on 09-05-2008 at 12:44 PM • top

Sarah,

You said: I’m not a fan of the Republican Party.  I don’t love it enough to try to “reform” it—I’ll leave that to the True Republicans who love their party no matter what—many of which seem to be on this very thread.
I don’t know whether I qualify under your definition of a True Republican.  I am a registered, contributing and participating-in-a-small-way Republican.  I do not love the Republican Party.  My membership, support and participation reflect my commitment, deep commitment, to what it purports to stand for.  I am unable to identify a better alternative.  I am open-minded about that.  I keep my eyes and ears open.  I cannot identify any organization which I might support which would give me a better opportunity to stand-up for what I stand-for, and that is important to me. 

I do not feel comfortable standing on the side lines kibitzing.

There is no comparability between staying in, supporting and participating in TECUSA and doing those things in the Republican Party.  I belong to The Church to worship my God and Savior, Jesus Christ, not to influence The Church.  I found a Church which provided me with a better opportunity to worship to worship my God.  It is not perfect, it is just better than TECUSA.

I am a contributing, participating member of the Republican Party because I judge it to be the only viable option for me to exert influence on the government of my beloved United States of America.  I do not love the Republican Party.  I do love the United States of America.  I feel very deeply that I have an obligation to participate in government.  Political parties are the vehicles through which citizens in the United States participate in government.  The Republican Party, while far from being perfect or perfectly reflecting my views, comes closer than any other option I can see. I refuse not to participate, because democracy which serves its citizens must be a participating democracy.

I can go to church and worship my God without participating in the governance of the church.  I cannot be a responsible citizen of the United States of America without participating in politics, which is the vehicle, the system, by which citizens participate.  And for democracy to survive, citizens must participate, not just talk.

God bless you and God bless America.

[122] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-05-2008 at 12:53 PM • top

were a lot of conservatives who wouldn’t vote for him

Frankly there aren’t that many “pure” conservatives to begin with, and certainly not enough to elect a “pure” conservative candidate all by themselves, unless we can somehow fracture the liberal vote at the same time.

[123] Posted by AndrewA on 09-05-2008 at 01:01 PM • top

RE: The traditional, small government conservative of old would argue that abortion laws should be left to the states, as it was pre-Rowe.”

Actually, the traditional small government conservative of old believed that the Constitution prohibited abortion—and the state laws followed that belief.  I’m advocating the *clarification* of the Constitution’s clear prospiction—as with *any* constitutional amendment, which also traditional small government conservatives are all for, rather than Supreme Court or legislative interference.

[124] Posted by Sarah on 09-05-2008 at 01:06 PM • top

I agree completely with Ol’Bob above. I am a Republican for one reason only: they are simply the closest thing I can find to what I really believe in.

What is that, you say? I am an old school historical conservative. I believe in a weak federal government, less spending, less taxation, states rights, and a strict interpretation of the Constitution. At one time, the Republicans were fairly close to being conservative but that time is long past. I wish to God there was a viable  truly conservative political party I could get behind but there isn’t. That being the case, for the time being I’ll take what I can get and hope something evolves in the future. But one thing I will not do is cut off my nose to spite my face and let the left-wingers transform us into the People’s Republic of America simply because the Republican Party is not as conservative as I would wish. Whether you like it or not, McCain is the only viable option at present.

the snarkster™

[125] Posted by the snarkster on 09-05-2008 at 01:13 PM • top

RE: “In case you haven’t noticed, the Dems already control both houses of Congress and look to increase their majorities this time around.”

Yes—and why is that?  One big reason for that is because the Republican Party no longer has the trust of conservatives. 

RE: “Do you really want to put Obama/Biden into office with veto proof majorities in both houses of Congress just because you don’t believe McCain is conservative enough?”

Better to ask that of the Republican Party, which nominated someone that many conservatives cannot vote for as president.

Did the Republican Party really want to do that?

But to your point . . . if the consequences of the Republican Party nominating a candidate that many conservatives cannot vote for are that a liberal is elected, then that is MUCH better than the Republican Party for scores of years refusing to nominate conservative candidates.

You’re asking about a comparatively short-term consequence.

I’m asking you, Ol Bob.  Are you comfortable with 1) the next 40 years, the Republican Party nominating non-conservatives for its presidential candidates, and 2) the next 40 years, the Republican Party losing more and more conservative votes, such that 3) we are in an escalating and very very long-term crisis in America whereby conservatives do not vote for the increasingly liberal candidates put up by the Republican Party?

To put it another way . . . you’re okay, then, with the Republican Party moving towards simply nominating someone *slightly less wildly radically liberal* than the candidate of the party of the Democrats?  That is your vision of “victory”, of “success”???

RE: “There is no comparability between staying in, supporting and participating in TECUSA and doing those things in the Republican Party.”

Interesting that you bring up TEC, Bob.  You’re willing to leave TEC, in a quest for something better.  But the Republican Party?  That’s going too far!!!!  ; > )

My values are reversed.  I value TEC far far far more than the Republican Party, whom I have no loyalty to, and of which I am not a member.

RE: “I can go to church and worship my God without participating in the governance of the church.”

I disagree—and I am sorry that you did not learn the hard lesson of TEC while you were in it.  For you will not keep whatever church you are now in, if you do not participate in some way in the governance of it.

But Ol’ Bob . . . I take secular politics far less seriously than I do ecclesial politics, and I have no hard feelings on this thread.  I’ve enjoyed it, and take it lightly.  God bless you too!

[126] Posted by Sarah on 09-05-2008 at 01:16 PM • top

The Republican party of my youth and young adultery smile was not that conservative (the Southern Democrats were more so), instead they seemed more conservative fiscally, than socially. Goldwater is an example of that, he actually was more liberal later in life when compared to the Christian right of today. There was the Rockefeller wing of the party too. Newt Gingrich and his folks really started it seems to me the conservative movement as it is today, as did Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority, probably more so then Reagan, whom I loved.

[127] Posted by FrVan on 09-05-2008 at 01:16 PM • top

RE: “Whether you like it or not, McCain is the only viable option at present.”

But in order for there to be future viable options, conservatives will need to say “no” to the Republican Party’s nominees.

I’m starting now.  And if Moot’s prediction above is accurate . . . you’ll join me, someday, Snarkster.

[128] Posted by Sarah on 09-05-2008 at 01:17 PM • top

Andrew:

RE: “Frankly there aren’t that many “pure” conservatives to begin with . . . “

Keep in mind that I was responding to Snarkster’s nightmare scenario [for him] of Obama/Biden being elected.  My response was to that scenario.

I agree that there aren’t that many “pure” conservatives—I’m not pure myself.

[129] Posted by Sarah on 09-05-2008 at 01:20 PM • top

“I’ve enjoyed it, and take it lightly.” Please don’t take it too lightly, you’ve made some very important points, “I value TEC far far far more than the Republican Party, “I wish more.” Wow.

[130] Posted by FrVan on 09-05-2008 at 01:21 PM • top

the snarkster, amen.

Sarah, I do not know whether I am old enough to be “old school” conservative, by your definition.  If the “old” you refer is really “old”, I suspect you will find that they were called liberals.

[131] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-05-2008 at 01:24 PM • top

Sarah, In Post 119 you hit McCain for not being a true conservative because he voted against the Tax Cuts. Well if you look at post 105 you will see that I have answered some of what you claim to be his flaws. Also he is FOR drilling in Alaska, so is Sarah Palin. He voted FOR drilling in Alaska. Also If you look at McCain-Feingold it does nothing to assuage grass roots efforts. It does however put restrictions on National Campaigns so that there is no control that can be formed through contributions.  Being someone who is involved with Grass Roots politics. The argument I quite frankly ludicrous.  This bill actually makes the Social Conservatives angry because it limits control and it makes Fiscal Conservatives happy. Because it limits the amount of money put forth in individual and PAC contributions.  Sarah one more thing. If you are not willing to work for change in either party to bring about change. Then I would say the battle is already over. Go vote don’t gripe and let politics take its course.  In 80 years when it comes around to being what you want. I will make sure my kids toast you. Or in 6 years we can toast you for bringing change.  I am done kicking the dead horse with those who choose to be plain non-conformists.

[132] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-05-2008 at 02:09 PM • top

124-Not so sure about that, Sarah.
While abortion was generally illegal in the old days, some states always allowed it in limited circumstances, such as to protect the woman’s life or for pregnancies due to rape or incest. Where illegal, criminal penalities varied. By the mid-sixties, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists had stated that drugs which halted human reproduction between fertilization and implantation were contraceptives, and was not truly an abortion. That was a huge development. However, outside of the Roman Catholic church, there really wasnt a big conservative outcry. Protestants, and increasingly Roman Catholics, bought into the pill in huge numbers.  The declining number of children among upper middle class families during this period is proof of this point.  Even here, you don’t hear much about contraception when abortion is being discussed.

By 1970, abortions were legal in many states. Anyone could get one. The only question was whether you needed to travel.

I suspect a succesful pro-life coalition will cut across what many of us consider to be “conservative” and “liberal” issues. For example, Roman Catholic teaching condemns both abortion and capital punishment.  Same with the Mennonites and others. Hard to see how you get that group in the same party.

In any event, it will sure be interesting…

[133] Posted by Going Home on 09-05-2008 at 02:13 PM • top

“I am done kicking the dead horse with those who choose to be plain non-conformists.” Good line! I do think that John McCain needs to be our president, and I was not sure at first. But I have come 180 on the issue of Obama, I think the people around him are very dangerous.

[134] Posted by FrVan on 09-05-2008 at 02:14 PM • top

I am a non-conformist on one subject. FrVan. I will never conform to abandoning Scripture and the Creeds that the TEC management systems asks of its members in GENCON 09 or for that matter from the last 5 gen cons.

[135] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-05-2008 at 02:22 PM • top

I cannot fault you for that Johnnyreb. May God Bless you in your expression of your faithfulness…It was still a good line (maybe not for the horse though)....

[136] Posted by FrVan on 09-05-2008 at 02:25 PM • top

I read something once that I keep coming back to that I think applies here:

“Parenting is like being a coach - you can teach them all you know during practice but when the “game” starts, you can’t go onto the field with them.”

[137] Posted by Already left on 09-05-2008 at 02:29 PM • top

“You’re asking about a comparatively short-term consequence”...

The naivete in this statement is simply overwhelming, and I agree with Snarkster.  But on the personal level, maybe, if elected, your new uber-liberal, Democratic president will tax every last nickel you’ve got, thus placing you in the position of collecting some really good Welfare from your(in reality) booby-prize huge government. 

The most troublesome problem with an all-or-nothing attitude is that, eventually, at least 50% of the time you’ll end up with nothing; not necessarily, in the long-term, a desirable option. 

One of the pitfalls of a free country, I guess; sometimes citizens feel the entitled need to opt against any sort of compromise.

But, in a greatest-good-for-the-greatest-number kind of way, I can only hope and pray that it doesn’t bode bad for the rest of us.

Oh, well…

[138] Posted by Passing By on 09-05-2008 at 03:54 PM • top

RE: “He voted FOR drilling in Alaska.”

NO. He voted against it and has consistently opposed it in his rhetoric.  My bet—in his desperate need to back off from some of his liberal positions, he’ll announce a change of heart.

http://www.bellona.org/english_import_area/energy/renewable/40630

Furthermore, in his opposition—and votes against—the successful Bush tax cuts, much of his rhetoric opposing said tax cuts was about how they only “helped the rich”—you know . . . just like the class-envy, wealth-redistribution, anti-success liberals.

RE: “Because it limits the amount of money put forth in individual and PAC contributions.”

Right—an outrageous violation of my free speech.  Face it, the only way individuals can have a voice in politics nowadays is almost entirely through funding other individuals.  I was appalled when it passed, and when McCain sponsored it, and I’m appalled now.

RE: “Sarah one more thing. If you are not willing to work for change in either party to bring about change. Then I would say the battle is already over.”

That’ll be up to the Republicans.

RE: “Go vote don’t gripe and let politics take its course.”

I certainly will—and should McCain be elected, I’ll be one of the conservatives who will have every reason and right to gripe about the long-term consequences of that on the Republican Party.  You, and others on this thread, however . . .

[139] Posted by Sarah on 09-05-2008 at 04:17 PM • top

RE: “The naivete in this statement is simply overwhelming” . . .

The naivete in your thinking that McCain will be just a “one-time-thing” for the Republican Party is simply overwhelming . . . . and *that’s* much much much longer term than an 8-year Obama term.  As Moot said:

Four or eight years from now, ya’ll will be climbing over dead bodies to vote for someone worse than Giuliani.

RE: “But on the personal level, maybe, if elected, your new uber-liberal, Democratic president will tax every last nickel you’ve got . . . “

Oh, I have no doubt that he will.  Isn’t it a pity, then, that the other major party did not trouble to nominate a conservative who could counter Obama.

RE: “But, in a greatest-good-for-the-greatest-number kind of way . . . “

The greatest good for the greatest number over the next century is to have one single party who will nominate conservative candidates.

But, you know . . . amongst Republicans apparently on this thread “conservative” means “a smidgen to the right of the nominee of the party of the Democrats.”

[140] Posted by Sarah on 09-05-2008 at 04:23 PM • top

Isn’t it a pity, then, that the other major party did not trouble to nominate a conservative who could counter Obama.

I don’t like any of the horses in this race, but I’d say McCain stands a better chance against Obama than any Republican I personally can think of. A further-right Republican would be wiped out, I suspect.

[141] Posted by oscewicee on 09-05-2008 at 04:31 PM • top

But, you know . . . amongst Republicans apparently on this thread “conservative” means “a smidgen to the right of the nominee of the party of the Democrats.”

WRONG….WRONG….WRONG….WRONG….WRONG….WRONG….
I have said several times above that I am not at all satisfied with the Republican Party. My friends tell me that I am somewhat to the starboard side of Attila the Hun. ONE MORE TIME: If there was a viable conservative alternative, I would jump on it in a flash. THERE ISN’T. I am not going to throw the baby out with the bath water and just surrender. I continue to hope that the Republican Party will rediscover conservatism but in the meantime, I’ll take what I can get and work like hell to advance the conservative cause for the future.

the snarkster™

[142] Posted by the snarkster on 09-05-2008 at 04:36 PM • top

Well Sarah. I do agree I will gripe about how the ticket I am not for has gone against what we elected the ticket to accomplish.  Can you give me other than already stated reasoning for your vitriol against McCain/Palin.  Also a PAC/Foundation website reporting on the Second vote of the Drilling bill.  Which was filled with wasteful spending some of which was helping abortion Clinics with funding.  In the states of Nebraska.  The entire system is broken, not just the Republican Party Sarah. I am a well known 1960’s era Goldwater Republican. I am in no way a NeoCon. Your views seem to be an embracing of both NeoCon Rhetoric and Traditional Conservative values.  If you look at what John McCain has done since his first election, I know this is odd but it will take actual research in hard copy not surfing the web, you will see that he has not gone against his platform of change in wasteful spending.  The issue at hand is that he is unconventional. I agree that this is most troublesome. However it is more troublesome if Obama is elected.

Sarah as to your said issue of violating your free speech by the McCain Feingold bill.  I would say you are viewing this quite short-sided.  political Action committees use lobbyists and lobbyists job is to sway public opinion, at any means necessary. This bill put limits to what lobbyists could do to lobby their causes. PAC’s also have been limited to putting forth as much money to campaigns. Also, to sending representatives on vacations. I am for the use of PAC money to do what it is called to do. That is to represent its followers to the Washington Machine.  Not to grease the pockets of said politicians and have no substantive change.  Take down the sound bite rhetoric and the emotional crap and look at this intellectually, like you have done so many times dealing with issues that get my blood boiling.  I believe if you can give me other points to which you oppose this ticket, then I can shut my mouth, but you are not looking at the big picture.  You are looking at 3 or four votes.  Per year that go against teh party he is apart of.  Sounds to me as if you are a die hard republican who listens to Limbaugh, who is the cradler of NeoConservatism. 

Also, if you could give me something that Bob Barr is for that you are.  Then we can see the whole picture. Like I said I am trying to be objective here.  But this is like kicking a dead horse.  I appreciate you calling me out. I will enjoy the continued debate.  Sarah you are a great great debater, maybe you should have been McCains pick.smile Sorry Just trying to lighten the mood.

[143] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-05-2008 at 04:42 PM • top

“But, you know . . . amongst Republicans apparently on this thread “conservative” means “a smidgen to the right of the nominee of the party of the Democrats.””

No, it’s operating in a state of realism as opposed to head-full-of-steam Fairyland, which is harmful to both other conservatives and the country-at-large.

In views and demographic I’m a lot like Sarah Palin. So much for being a “smidgen to the right” of Obama.  Sorry to say, but if you truly believe the above, you have no or limited understanding of how far-left Obama really is. 

As I’ve said before, I don’t consider voting for a far leftie simply because you didn’t get a far rightie to vote for to be a judicious solution.  Abstinence this year has more integrity, because Obama actually violates your principles much more than McCain does, and abstinence helps the rest of us, and the country, more. 

But, whatever:  That’s why we’re free.

[144] Posted by Passing By on 09-05-2008 at 04:57 PM • top

I got into this thread quite late, but I am with you Snarkster and Ol’Bob.  I am apalled at the logic that would avoid voting for McCain/Palin and the consequences of such a decision.  Sarah’s been wrong about sticking with TEC forever and she’s wrong about this.

[145] Posted by athan-asi-us on 09-05-2008 at 05:17 PM • top

Two things.  I’m quite happily voting for John McCain this fall.  The idea that he’s some kind of liberal in conservative drag is too stupid for an intelligent person to entertain. 

But I also know this.  There has never been an ideologically perfect presidential candidate in this history of this country who has won.  And if you want to advance your goal, baby steps are often the only steps you can take.

In 1848, for example, Abraham Lincoln, who we have been taught was fervently against slavery, supported Zachary Taylor for President even though General Taylor was a slaveholder.  In 1860, Mr. Lincoln was execrated by professional abolitionists like William Lloyd Garrison because the Republican Party refused to touch slavery where it already existed.

The election of Barack Obama to the presidency would be such a singular disaster to this country on so many levels, not least the millions of unborn babies who would horribly die as a result, that I cannot, if I am able, allow it to happen.

The consciences of others may permit them to sleep at night regardless of the fact that their votes in a close election could have prevented an Obama presidency and the slaughter that would inevitably follow it.  Me, I’m not built that way.

[146] Posted by Christopher Johnson on 09-05-2008 at 05:24 PM • top

Ya’ll slay me—arguing about the Democrats and Republicans.  If the Church had done its job teaching Christian values over the years, the lay people would know how to apply Christian values to their voting booth decisions.  Nobody has to tell Catholics (or Baptists) who to vote for.  The majority of them vote for the most Christian oriented candidate—and they figure out who it is for themselves.

[147] Posted by GB on 09-05-2008 at 05:27 PM • top

Sarah, you said:

But, you know . . . amongst Republicans apparently on this thread “conservative” means “a smidgen to the right of the nominee of the party of the Democrats.”

I don’t think you have a clue what conservative means to me.  It would be nice if you would do your usually articulate job of expressing your views and let me express mine, however poorly I do it.

Thanks.

[148] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-05-2008 at 05:40 PM • top

CJ, thank you for the great history lesson.  It’s certainly germane.

[149] Posted by Passing By on 09-05-2008 at 05:42 PM • top

Of course, a social liberatarian would argue that a social conservative claiming they are for less govt. intrusion is being hypocritical.

[150] Posted by AndrewA on 09-05-2008 at 05:57 PM • top

Moot:

‘Disenfranchisment’ refers to taking away someone’s right to vote.  That’s the word you choose, and it doesn’t fit the situation.  Choosing to vote Third-Party and then voting Third-Party is completely contrary to a disenfranchisement.

 

Thank you!

This is certainly an interesting thread.

I can’t recall the exact source, but here’s my favorite quote about electoral politics:
“Your vote is not a bet you place on who’s going to win the election; it’s a statement about who you are and what you believe.”
If we’re ever to overcome the agonizing dilemma of being expected to vote for “the lesser of two evils,” then Christians and other conservatives simply must support third party candidates and movements.  There is no other way to do it, and we should be thankful that we still can.
What would happen if every Christian voter in this country decided today to reject the politics of undue compromise and resolved to support only those candidates who truly reflect his or her beliefs and values?  It is one of the great blessings of liberty in this country that we are still actually able to do that.  So, why don’t we?
The unspoken message of the Republican Party to conservative voters appears to be: “Well, you have to vote for us because there is no one else to vote for.”  I refuse to accept that.  As citizens of a free Republic, we have the ability to break the stranglehold of a two party “system” in favor of multi-party democracy, if we choose to do so.  It’s time to think outside the box.
Let’s enhance our credibility now, and our effectiveness in the long run, by refusing to serve as voting fodder for candidates and parties whose views we can’t fully embrace.  And if doing that has the happy effect of moving the Republican Party in a more genuinely conservative direction, so much the better.

Four or eight years from now, ya’ll will be climbing over dead bodies to vote for someone worse than Giuliani.

Thanks again, Moot, for a graphic reminder of how much worse things will get as the dictates of “pragmatism” continue to persuade many that a principled approach to making them better can’t possibly work.  A self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one, but at least no votes will be “wasted” in the process.  Not as long as the guy who’s worse than Giuliani is slightly better than the guy who’s even worse than that.  And so it goes. smile

[151] Posted by episcopalienated on 09-05-2008 at 05:58 PM • top

What would happen if every Christian voter in this country decided today to reject the politics of undue compromise and resolved to support only those candidates who truly reflect his or her beliefs and values?

I think Nancy thinks that she is a Christian and that her stances, even those on abortion, reflect Christian values.  I think she will keep thinking that no matter how much her bishops tell her otherwise.  I think Barak thinks his stances on abortion reflect Christian values, and his church (the ultra-liberal descendents of the Mass. Bay Puritans) agrees with him.  I think McCain thinks that his support for immigration amnesty reflects Christian values.  I would imagine many a Hispanic Catholic would agree with him. 

What would happen if all those that consider themselves Christian voted according to their own values?  Pretty much what we have right now.

[152] Posted by AndrewA on 09-05-2008 at 06:17 PM • top

Great Point AndrewA

[153] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-05-2008 at 06:55 PM • top

AndrewA:

What would happen if all those that consider themselves Christian voted according to their own values?  Pretty much what we have right now.

Well, as a Christian, I find the views of Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Obama on abortion (and infanticide) to be morally repugnant and I could not, in good conscience, vote for either one of them.  If they both believe that those views truly reflect “Christian values,” then either they are horribly mistaken, or I am.

On the subject of abortion, do you believe it’s possible to distinguish an authentically Christian position from one which is not, regardless of what its adherents might claim for themselves in terms of their “Christian” status and values?

I also can’t agree that “immigration amnesty reflects Christian values” and I know any number of Hispanic Catholics who feel the same way, although that is not my primary objection to Mr. McCain’s candidacy.

And “pretty much what we have right now” is still what I’d like to get past.

So . . . who should I vote for, Andrew? 

I don’t think the import of my previous post was difficult to grasp.  There are tens of millions of practicing Christians in this country, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant, who share core beliefs and values.  I am convinced that what we hold in common is greater than our differences, and that together we can be a powerful force for good, even in the murky mundane world of electoral politics, if we choose to do it.  If that ever happens, I don’t think it’s going to look anything like “what we have right now.”

We need not be deceived or put off by the fact that notorious left wingers pay occasional lip service to Christianity, as if the outrageous nature of some of their views must somehow give us pause if they also claim to be Christian.  That is simply not worth taking seriously.  And we need not wait for Mr. McCain to fully catch up with us before we begin.  I really don’t think he’s interested.

[154] Posted by episcopalienated on 09-05-2008 at 07:25 PM • top

I also can’t agree that “immigration amnesty reflects Christian values”

I would imagine that the argument is that mercy is preferable to criminalizing economic migrants looking to improve the lots of their families.  It is a view I can understand, even if I think that illegal immigration is is some ways detrimental to the immigrant as well as general society. 

There are tens of millions of practicing Christians in this country, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant, who share core beliefs and values.  I am convinced that what we hold in common is greater than our differences, and that together we can be a powerful force for good

I would imagine that there is a great deal of political differences within and between all these groups.  A Roman Catholic union worker vs an Anglican stockbroker vs a Southern Baptist farmer (just to throw out some sterotypes) might all have very different perspectives on economic and fiscal policy, for example.

But what about social issues?  Supposedly the majority of Americans identify as Christian.  Supposedly the majority of Americans support “Choice.”  Go figure.  Of course, as Roman Catholic archbishops have correctly reminded us, the majority is always Right, it is just the majority.  Alas, in democracies, the majority tends also to be law. 

I happen to think that the US passed the point of no reture a long time ago on social values.  But I’ll keep voting for the most Pro-Life candidates available that I think have a chance of actually putting their policies into effect instead of standing on the sideline and complaining.

[155] Posted by AndrewA on 09-05-2008 at 07:41 PM • top

That should be “...the majority is NOT always Right…”

[156] Posted by AndrewA on 09-05-2008 at 07:43 PM • top

Great Arguments again AndrewA.  The problem is the NeoConservatives and even the NeoLiberals want a Disneyland Society.  Where everybody is behind them and their beliefs. The problem is that has never been the case.  I am one who believes politics are flawd completely and the best thing for every single person is to not get nvolved however, thats my personal feeling after being involved way to long in the game. But that being said I still cote every election, with the closest to my belief structure I can.  Until Christ comes down and Runs for president, we have to be willing to compromise.  If we were to return to the 1960’s in politics there was a lot of working across the isle to bring about positive change. Which involces compromise. Quite like marraige involves a lot of compromise in order to be happy. So for the people who are seeking a Utopia read Thomas More.  Those who wish to see positive change need to vote and work to bring about change instead of being on the sidelines crying that they never see anything good.  Anyway I appreciate your points AndrewA.

[157] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-05-2008 at 08:01 PM • top

Sorry, put this in the wrong thread a moment ago.

Since this is threatening to turn into another 200+ comment political thread, and I haven’t seen any “palate cleansers”, try

For the choral music fans…
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KwR_dM-1MlU
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KwR_dM-1MlU
For thoses that don’t mind something a little more contemporary…
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ht7vEvW8ylA&feature=related

[158] Posted by AndrewA on 09-05-2008 at 08:35 PM • top

AndrewA:

But I’ll keep voting for the most Pro-Life candidates available that I think have a chance of actually putting their policies into effect instead of standing on the sideline and complaining.


I haven’t missed voting in an election since 1980 and this year will be no exception.  That includes voting for president.
No sidelines here.
No complaints either—but those of us who like to think outside the box are free to do so, and free to say so.
And free to imagine what it will be like when we’re joined by others in greater numbers.  It could happen.
Sounds like those bishops of yours are on to something.  A common occurrence.
Don’t worry too much about the stock brokers and farmers and union workers.  A healthy dose of Adam Smith and Rerum Novarum should help to get them on the same page.  That, and a few sermons against class envy.  The rest is up to Mother Nature and upward mobility.  But it still beats the dictatorship of the proletariat all to hell.
If we can get those “economic migrants” to enter the country legally, they might end up on the same page too.  But until then, I can’t quite think of helping them break the law as an act of mercy.  If we’re not careful about stuff like that, we could end up with a country that won’t be worth sneaking into.  (That may happen anyway.)  Then where will they go? wink

[159] Posted by episcopalienated on 09-05-2008 at 08:36 PM • top

If we can get those “economic migrants” to enter the country legally, they might end up on the same page too.

The question is, from my perspective, how to make the incentive for legal immigration greater than the incentive for illegal immigration.  The plan McCain used to back fails that test, but I’m not going to doubt his motives or make a big deal about it.  Still, I don’t think enforcement alone will do enough without some sort of incentive for legal immigration. 

A healthy dose of Adam Smith and Rerum Novarum should help to get them on the same page.

To which some would respond with Keynes.  At either rate, I don’t think there is such a thing as a God-ordained economic system, even if I tend toward Chicago School.

The rest is up to Mother Nature and upward mobility.

Someone could reasonably argue that Social Darwinism does little to address Christ’s command to care for the poor and not live lives focused on building up treasures on Earth.  To which some could reasonably respond that the advancment of the rich ultimatly improves the lot of all.  But there is no single Biblical answer.

[160] Posted by AndrewA on 09-05-2008 at 08:55 PM • top

RE: “I continue to hope that the Republican Party will rediscover conservatism . . . “

Why should they—you’ll vote for whomever the Republican Party throws you, Snarkster.  There is no reason at all for the Republican Party to “rediscover conservatism”—they’re doing just fine with their voters right now, and are receiving their reward from you for their choices—your vote.

Johnny Reb:
RE: “Can you give me other than already stated reasoning for your vitriol against McCain/Palin.”

JohnnyReb—you call this vitriol?  Stick around and hear me go to town on a TEC bishop!  ; > )

I think Palin’s the cat’s meow—of course, I expected McCain to pick someone way to the right of him, because he’s desperate to attempt to counter his own voting record.  And I *like* McCain.  I like “mavericks”.  I honor his service and what he went through.  But I do not believe that he should be President.

RE: “Also a PAC/Foundation website reporting on the Second vote of the Drilling bill.”

Thanks for admitting that, yes, he voted against drilling.

RE: “I know this is odd but it will take actual research in hard copy not surfing the web, you will see that he has not gone against his platform of change in wasteful spending.”

Good grief—you’re actually distinguishing between copies of bills posted online and “hard copy” of bills on paper?  McCain’s voting records are all over the place.  There are records of all the bills and his votes.  Yes—online.  Thank God for the Internet!

I agree that he has “not gone against his platform of change in wasteful spending.”  Where was that in my points?

RE: “political Action committees use lobbyists and lobbyists job is to sway public opinion, at any means necessary. . . . “

Right—and individuals like *me* pay PACs to use lobbyists. 

We like that.

I—and thousands of others like me—can’t go to Washington personally to influence politicans.  So we make donations—and combine those donations into entities that represent our beliefs.  To PACs.  It was unconscionable of McCain to limit the power of individuals to make donations to PACs then, and it still is.  It is the epitome of a liberal State controlling the channeling of my money to seek influence because, you know, they know better than I do—and McCain sponsored that effort.

RE: “I believe if you can give me other points to which you oppose this ticket, then I can shut my mouth, but you are not looking at the big picture.”

Yet more points?  You’ve gotten masses of them.  Lol.  No—you won’t care what I say.  You’re going to vote for whomever the Republican Party throws your way—and you’ll like it.  ; > )

Geek in Dallas:
RE: “No, it’s operating in a state of realism as opposed to head-full-of-steam Fairyland, which is harmful to both other conservatives and the country-at-large.”

The people in Fairyland are those who fancy that a vote for McCain won’t be a vote for more and more liberal presidential candidates from the Republican Party.  The man is a disaster.  He was five years ago—when we rejected him.  He is now.  A nice man, mind you—and a patriot.  But not suitable for the Presidency.

It is harmful to support the poor nominees of the Republican Party, encouraging said party to nominate more poor nominees.

RE: “As I’ve said before, I don’t consider voting for a far leftie simply because you didn’t get a far rightie to vote for to be a judicious solution.”

Me neither—not certain where you got that idea.

RE: “In views and demographic I’m a lot like Sarah Palin. So much for being a “smidgen to the right” of Obama.”

Yes—a pity that Palin is not the Republican Party’s presidential nominee.  But so far, the only reasons the Republicans on this thread have for voting for McCain is . . . “well he’s not Obama!!!!”

athan-asi-us
RE: “I am apalled at the logic that would avoid voting for McCain/Palin and the consequences of such a decision.”

And I am appalled at the consequences of voting for anyone that the Republican Party throws at the conservatives.

RE: “Sarah’s been wrong about sticking with TEC forever and she’s wrong about this.”

Heh—spoken like a true Republican Institutionalist.  But you know . . . loyalty to the institution of the Republican Party is all the rage for some.  ; > )
Better not to rock the boat, you know.

Chris Johnson:
RE: “The idea that he’s some kind of liberal in conservative drag is too stupid for an intelligent person to entertain.”

So Chris Johnson has asserted several times.  . . .  But in the absence of anything other than his repeated assertions, I am unconcerned.  Not to mention that I haven’t called McCain a liberal.  I’ve merely stated that he’s not a conservative—not the same thing.

RE: “And if you want to advance your goal, baby steps are often the only steps you can take.”

Right—the kind of baby steps that the Republican Party is taking, perhaps?  Nice candidate they have there.

RE: “There has never been an ideologically perfect presidential candidate in this history of this country who has won.”

Yeh . . . but as with TEC episcopal candidates and TEC rectors . . . there are limits.  I reached mine with McCain.

RE: “The consciences of others may permit them to sleep at night regardless of the fact that their votes in a close election could have prevented an Obama presidency and the slaughter that would inevitably follow it.”

Yes—it is a pity that the Republican Party could not bring themselves to nominate a conservative for president.  I hope that your tender conscience can bear their choice—do you donate to them, support those choices?  As a result, a really terrible candidate might indeed win.  And the only thing that the die-hard Republicans can do about it is . . . blame conservatives for having the gall not to vote for their Republican candidate

Ol Bob:
RE: “I don’t think you have a clue what conservative means to me.”

Well I dunno—I thought you’d been sharing on this thread all along that you think McCain is conservative.  You don’t?  I thought you were sharing what “conservative means to” you.  You weren’t?  You sure sounded like it.

AndrewA:
RE: “Of course, a social liberatarian would argue that a social conservative claiming they are for less govt. intrusion is being hypocritical.”

I’m okay with a social libertarian stating I’m being hypocritical.  We’d have a nice round of arguments about what the Constitution allows and doesn’t allow.

[161] Posted by Sarah on 09-05-2008 at 08:58 PM • top

Episcopalienated:
RE: “If we’re ever to overcome the agonizing dilemma of being expected to vote for “the lesser of two evils,” then Christians and other conservatives simply must support third party candidates and movements.”

Very nice.  Thanks for entering in here . . . what a wonderful brawl, eh?

However . . . many Republicans don’t consider McCain to be the “lesser of two evils”—they’re perfectly satisfied with him, and obviously they haven’t “hit their limit” as I did.  I’m a little uncomfortable in believing that a vote for McCain is a vote for the lesser of two evils.  I’m not going that far, since clearly if people’s consciences, integrity, or principles don’t cause them to be unwilling to vote for him, then I understand their vote.

If someone thinks he’s a conservative—and they vote for him—they may be mistaken, but I don’t know that they’ve made a “lesser evil” choice.

I’ve articulated my beliefs—and the reasons why I don’t intend to vote for him.  But since I obviously have different principles than most of this thread, I can see why they’d vote for McCain with a clear conscience.  It might be a mistake—but I don’t think it would be immoral for them to do so.

RE: “What would happen if all those that consider themselves Christian voted according to their own values?”

Well, we know one thing.  Two conservatives on this thread probably will not be voting for McCain.  ; > )

But I’d be very curious . . . would the Republicans on this thread have voted for Guiliani, as opposed to Obama? 

How about Hillary Clinton, if she were the only main-party candidate opposing Obama?

My suspicion is that whomever the Republican Party nominated—no matter what as long as he or she was to the right of the nominee from the party of the Democrats and they’d be able to salve their conscience with that . . . that would be their vote.  Because you know—Obama is the very very worst thing that could ever happen to this country, ever!

Once you’ve sacrificed your integrity and principle and honor and conscience out of fear of a consequence—however bad you think that consequence may be—you have started down a path that will bring great shame and misery, not only to you and your own, but even to strangers.

I’d like to *think* I’m not built that way.  But we’ll see, as life goes on.  It’s easy to talk—harder to act with integrity.

And that highlights the truth of your final statement, Episcopalienated:

“Thanks again, Moot, for a graphic reminder of how much worse things will get as the dictates of “pragmatism” continue to persuade many that a principled approach to making them better can’t possibly work.  A self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one, but at least no votes will be “wasted” in the process.  Not as long as the guy who’s worse than Giuliani is slightly better than the guy who’s even worse than that.  And so it goes.

I’ve enjoyed this light skirmish.  It has been a civil and nice debate with no generally hurled pejoratives, or off-topics, or meanness that I’ve noticed.

But I have some other fighting I need to go attend to now . . . although this has certainly been a welcome relief.

I think the best skirmishing to be had—the kind that would really relieve us all and send us to an appropriate state of slumber and good will and refresh us for Anglican Warfare—would be over the proper interpretation of Tess of the D’urbervilles and other novels of the late 19th century.  : > )

Could you legitimately call it the last of the pastoral novels?  Or a first modernist novel, along the later lines of Tolkien’s TLOTR?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Meet me at another thread to debate this and other deadly serious points!!!!

Daggers at midnight—pickaxes at dawn for the survivors.

[162] Posted by Sarah on 09-05-2008 at 09:00 PM • top

Sarah,

I never said or suggested John McCain was conservative, what ever that means.  I said I supported him, as being the better, far better, choice amoung the options available.

As to what conservative means to me, I don’t think I have made a statement regarding that.  I have stated as clearly as I am able my views on specific issues, you appear to classify them as conservative.  That is ok with me.

I accept whatever label you want to place on me.  I am what I am.  Conservative may be a reasonable label. I prefer neo-paleo conservative, near, sometimes very near, libertarian.  Retract that, I don’t like labels.

There is a serious issue framed here by Fr. Matt’s post; obviously someothers think so also, as this thread has been active for several days and 161 comments.  Labels are not as important as an open, civil exchange.  I think that has happened, and I thank God for that and your contribution to it.

[163] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-05-2008 at 09:14 PM • top

However . . . many Republicans don’t consider McCain to be the “lesser of two evils”—they’re perfectly satisfied with him, and obviously they haven’t “hit their limit” as I did.  I’m a little uncomfortable in believing that a vote for McCain is a vote for the lesser of two evils.  I’m not going that far, since clearly if people’s consciences, integrity, or principles don’t cause them to be unwilling to vote for him, then I understand their vote.

Sarah, get you candidate on the ballet in my commonwealth and in all the states and I’d be happy to give him/her a fair appraisal.  In the meantime, I go with the options I have.  BTW, who did you vote for in the primary?

[164] Posted by AndrewA on 09-05-2008 at 09:15 PM • top

I couldn’t stomach the idea of voting for Giuliani.  He is fun to listen to and did a good job in NYC, but his pro abortion stance I could not tolerate.  My husband tried to tell me he would pick better judges than Obama, and that is probably true.  But that was my breaking point.  I probably would have voted for anyone else who got nominated. (I think the rest were all prolife, right?  )    I do believe in choosing between the candidates you are given in most cases.  I am just glad the Republicans didn’t give us Giuliani.
Susan Peterson

[165] Posted by eulogos on 09-05-2008 at 09:29 PM • top

Amen again Ol’Bob.
Signed,
The Institutional Republican who doesn’t want to see the Marxists elected

[166] Posted by athan-asi-us on 09-05-2008 at 09:43 PM • top

The 1992 election showed what happens when people vote for a non-viable third party candidate.  That year we got Bill Clinton.  The 2008 election will give us Obama if people vote for Nader or Barr.  This election is too important for somebody to have a majority because people wasted their vote.  If we truly had a legitimate third party candidate, it would be a different story.  At least half of the Republican ticket is conservative.  And all of it is pro-life.
I agree with Sarah that McCain is by no means a true conservative.  However, he a cut way above Obama.  All Obama has going for him is looks, charisma, and a gorgeous smile.  Take the teleprompter away and he isn’t even a good speaker.  Rick Warren proved that.

[167] Posted by terrafirma on 09-05-2008 at 09:57 PM • top

Sarah and Episcopalianated, thank you for the kind words. 

It’s been a busy couple of weeks.  I was out of town at a professional conference in Pittsburg last week, and brought the girls along.  This week, I was trying to catch up at work, which was pleasantly difficult because of the holiday weekend, and my company’s bi-annual airshow event (I am a blessed man).  I was able to catch up on sleep this afternoon. 

Thinking over what I’ve said on this thread, I have to say that there’s nothing I would retract.  That doesn’t mean that I hope against hope that I will be proven wrong;  or that I would give anything to not only be proven wrong, but to wear my shame the way Cain was supposed to have worn his, for the rest of my days.  But as it’s been pointed out frequently here, wanting isn’t the same as having. 

I’ve reflected too on the disparate opinions on this thread, ones in favor of voting for McCain, and it occurs to me that at one point or another, I would have passionately agreed.  Heck, once upon a time, I’ve even held some opinions (which I’ve long since rejected) not expressed on this thread.  Those opinions had something to do with what I had realized about 10 years ago, about the Republican Party. 

About that time, I was living in another state (I won’t say which one, except that it is a place where the land is large, and only eclipsed by the sky), and meeting a friend for lunch.  My friend happened to be active in the Republican Party in that state.  We had agreed to meet at a coffee house, where he was attending his local GOP chapter’s meeting, then we’d go off for lunch. 

I got there, saw my friend was still at his meeting, nodded hello to him, then sat down quietly at a table across from them.  After about two minutes, the meeting got very quiet, and the moderator looked over at me and politely asked if he could help me.  Surprised that I was being questioned about my intentions in a public place, I nevertheless answered that I was here to meet my friend for lunch.  My friend assured the moderator that everything was on the up and up.  Satisfied, the moderator resumed the meeting, then concluded. 

Later, my friend explained what was going on.  Apparently, there were two factions of the Republican Party in that state:  the raging liberals and the conservatives.  They both held closed meetings, distrusted one another intensely, and plotted against one another.  The thing was, neither side wanted the public to know about what was going on.  Apparently, that would undermine the trust that people like you and me have (or had) in the Republican Party, as the Great Savior of Western Civilization. 

[That’s why, incidentally, my friend asked me to secrecy, and that’s why I have partially respected his wish by not revealing the state.  ]

I started having serious reservations about the GOP, even the so-called “conservative side” of the GOP, at that point.  I concluded then, that they were using me.  That opinion hasn’t changed. 

I agree with Sarah that if you are convicted in conscience about voting for McCain, and your moral reasons are valid, and then you do so vote, that you have made a mistake but not an immoral one.  I can’t vote for McCain because his position on life, while seemingly better than Obama’s, is not different at its core.  Actually, in some ways it’s worse - affirming life, but then turning around and trying to make the best out of the immoral treatment of life.  At least Obama is consistent in principal with respecting life where it has been affirmed (Not that I’d vote for him, either).

It will be several years or decades, but I think that all of you will come around eventually, at least (I think), most of you.  We’ll sit together outside the gates, and talk about how we had been used, how we all compromised, how we affirmed God’s sovereignty and then acted otherwise, and how we won’t take it anymore.  A society of Ex-Chief Sinners. 

We are in judgment, and we are running out of time, but -we- are also in His Hands.  That is the hope that I hold onto, watching my little girl get ready for the awful days ahead of her.

[168] Posted by Moot on 09-05-2008 at 10:09 PM • top

I just read through this thread for the first time. I am sort of startled to note that a lot of people seem to think that our government is parliamentarian. It is NOT.

The President of the United States is charged with several rather specific tasks: to execute the laws of the land and to keep the mechanisms of government running smoothly; to appoint people to various offices—most importantly, to appoint Federal judges; and to be the Commander-in Chief of our armed forces.

The President of the United States does NOT legislate; he is NOT the most prominent member of Congress—at best, he can SUGGEST that the members of his own party move in a certain direction. Historically, Congress has NEVER acted in full accord with ANY Presidents legislative agenda.

In Europe, this is not the case at all. In England, for instance, there is no boundary between the legislative aspects of government and the executive aspects. They are one and the same. The Prime Minister of great Britain IS a member of Parliament.

John McCain has done some really stupid and awful things, both as a Congressman and as a Senator. I think he is a well-meaning sort of guy, in his own awkward and stilted way. I think that one of the BEST things we can do with him, for now, is GET HIM OUT OF THE SENATE. And I think that the BEST WAY to do that is to “kick him upstairs.” Put him in the White House, where his ability to do any substantial damage will be mitigated by a variety of historical and political realities.

Sarah Palin is, potentially, the FUTURE of the Republican Party. But only if they WIN this year. If they lose, she is probably TOAST.

In my humble opinion, SHE is worthy of my vote.

[169] Posted by bluenarrative on 09-05-2008 at 11:16 PM • top

The alternative to a McCain/Palin administration will be a “Democratic” administration that will be hideously and radically Marxist, in a way that America has never seen before. The folks calling the shots in Denver during the Annointing of the Messiah make Michael Dukakis look like Jesse Helms.

As Peggy Noonan noted earlier today, “...The beds are about to fly around the room. And the puke is going to come out…”

In my opinion, this IS an important election. Say what you will about McCain, he has NEVER supported patent INFANTICIDE, as Obama has.

Call me paranoid, if you like. Accuse me of wild hyperbole, if you must. But I’ve got a 6 year old daughter. I am NOT prepared to surrender HER future to some of the genuinely crazy—and truly demonic—people who will appointing Federal Judges if Obama is elected.

[170] Posted by bluenarrative on 09-05-2008 at 11:29 PM • top

Ah Moot - you must have been living in Montana? Surely only in Montana would a “smoke and mirrors” political gathering take place in a public coffee house.

[171] Posted by driver8 on 09-06-2008 at 01:18 AM • top

In my opinion, this IS an important election. Say what you will about McCain, he has NEVER supported patent INFANTICIDE, as Obama has.

So, infanticide is worse than abortion, and abortion is worse than embryonic stem-cell research? 

What about murder?  Is murder worse than infanticide?

...Do you see how bad things have become?

I know.  I’m nit-picking.  The odd thing is, I think that capital punishment is a life issue also, and that the state is morally obligated to execute convicted murderers.  Yet, I’d be willing to let that one slide, if I thought a cantidate was okay on the other life issues.

[172] Posted by Moot on 09-06-2008 at 07:11 AM • top

I don’t know what state you were in, either, Moot.  I could make some educated guesses.  As for the Republican Party, most of them who claim an active church affiliation are evangelical fundamentalists—at least that is who they play up to most of the time.  If you keep your ears to the ground between now and election time, you will find out that a very large number of the TEC revisionists consider themselves good Republicans, politically speaking.  This is a fascinating contradiction which has no easy explanation, but then I can’t ever explain the revisionists—wherever I find them.  Choosing between McCain and Obama is a choice I hate to make.  A lot of Continuing Anglicans have gone to the Libertarian Party, but then they don’t necessarily put Christan values first, either-the Libertarians I mean.

[173] Posted by GB on 09-06-2008 at 07:30 AM • top

Moot @ 172 wrote: “The odd thing is, I think that capital punishment is a life issue also, and that the state is morally obligated to execute convicted murderers.  Yet, I’d be willing to let that one slide, if I thought a cantidate (sic)was okay on the other life issues”  Hungh?

[174] Posted by EmilyH on 09-06-2008 at 08:27 AM • top

EmilyH, it seems to be a requirement in the Naohic covenant which grounds the command to execute murderers in the created order with an aim toward preserving the sanctity of the imago dei…to murder is to blaspheme…which is different than what we see in the Mosaic covenant where the concern seems not to be the sanctity of created life but the Holiness of God.

Genesis 9:3-7

3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.

7 And you, [1] be fruitful and multiply, teem on the earth and multiply in it.”

[175] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-06-2008 at 08:32 AM • top

Matt+ my concern here, at least in part, is Moot’s comment that capital punishment is “morally obligated” for convicted murderers.  What I wonder is on what basis is it mandated that capital punishment is necessary and it is the state that is to execute (excuse pun) it?

[176] Posted by EmilyH on 09-06-2008 at 09:01 AM • top

Emily, well some argue that since the text in gen 9 is in the imperative, it is a command, and it is, therefore, grounded in the created order (ie…it is a lasting ordinance, not one necessarily fulfilled on the cross), that the state, as the institution established by God to bear the sword (Romans 13), is obligate to execute murderers.

[177] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-06-2008 at 09:04 AM • top

Fellow SFers,

In the nearly two years I have been reading this blog and the 14 months in which I have been commenting, this thread is probably the most interesting, informative and meaningful I can remember.  Thanks, Fr. Matt, for posting it and thanks to the many commenters who have made it so significant to me.

It contains so many elements of the issues which are important to all of us: theology, religion (no, they are not necessarily the same), politics and failed human nature.  In the process, the diverse thoughts expressed demonstrate how inextricably intertwined they are.  It also demonstrates, in my view, the folly of trying to separate them.

I especially appreciate the opportunity to try to influence the view of those (very) few who need such so badly.  ; < )

God bless!

[178] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-06-2008 at 09:39 AM • top

Sarah Hey, my respect for you knows no bounds, but, if I understand your reasoning, there is an underlying assumption that I question.  The assumption is that the USA would still be around in fifty years for a third party to emerge.  Given a leftward trajectory, I wonder if it will, to be frank.

[179] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 09-06-2008 at 10:49 AM • top

Jill, in all honesty and frankness, I have no doubt the USA will still be around in fifty years.  The leftward trajectory may change the USA as we know it right now, but times always change.  Within ffty years two problems we have now will be a lot different—the energy crisis and the incredible health care mess in our country, but by that time there will be new problems that will have risen up—no doubt.

[180] Posted by GB on 09-06-2008 at 11:24 AM • top

Well, for example, as we baby-boomers reach old-age, we will have the votes to do something about the health care situation, and the refusal by the younger generation to face up to the issue will gradually become a thing of the past.  That’s how democracy works—whether you are a republican or democrat is not the main point.

[181] Posted by GB on 09-06-2008 at 11:32 AM • top

do something about the health care situation

As if there is any agreed upon magic bullet to solve that issue.  Of course, many of us “younger generation” think that the “baby-boomers” are to quick to put the burden on the govt., which is hardly a solution.

[182] Posted by AndrewA on 09-06-2008 at 11:39 AM • top

From a spiritual perspective, we are a church under judgment.  Is it not possible that one day we could become a nation under judgment?
From a practical perspective, I wonder about the possibility of a future financial collapse fuelled by greed.

[183] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 09-06-2008 at 11:40 AM • top

Re # 183

Jill, your comments and the many resources you make available on and through this site are invaluable.

It appears that you and I define greed differently.  My operative definition of greed is the taking of something which is not yours, which belongs to some other human.  I would appreciate hearing yours.

It does not appear to me to be unreasonable to believe, based on history and the literature, to believe that private property rights, individual freedom, democracy and freedom of religion seem to run around together.  It is hard to document an extended period in which one has existed in relatively unfettered form without the other.

In my view, wealth is not evil, wrong or sinful per se.  There are many evil, wrong and sinful ways to acquire wealth and employ wealth.  But the condition of wealth is neither evil, wrong nor sinful, in my view.

I cannot, from my experience, identify many churches, many universities, many hospitals, many shelters for people in various forms of distress, or many organizations which assist the needy and helpless which were not funded, to some significant degree, by contributions by people with wealth.  In my home city, I can assure you of that.  I know that because I see their names on stained glass windows in churches, cancer clinics and many other places.  Clergy might have an even more difficult financial time if their compensation had to come in equal amounts from the members of the church they serve. The wealthy tend to contribute more than the poor, don’t they?

Wealth occurs when humans create value, or add value to something which already exists, to other fill other humans’ needs.  While almost every human can contribute in some way to this added value, our contributions are frequently not equal.  In a democracy with a free market economic system and private property rights, this disparity in rate of contribution results in a disparity of wealth accumulation.  I am unable to, per se, see evil, wrong or sin in that.  Certainly there is potential for all three because all the activity I have mentioned involves human activity, which is certainly subject to all three.

If greed is the most significant driving force in wealth accumulation, which I doubt, the wealth accumulated is put to uses which benefit the needy and disadvantaged, then maybe we need a new definition of greed.

God bless you for all you do.

[184] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-06-2008 at 12:13 PM • top

Dhimmi professes not to understand where James Dobson, Matt Kennedy, and the other bloggers are coming from because none referred to Titus 1:6.  It seems resonable to assume that Evangelicals would:  (i) take the Bible seriously; (ii) interpret the Bible broadly so as to make its guidance serve more readily as a guide to modern life; and (iii) believe steadfastlly in restricting sexual intimacy to the state of holy matrimony.  Dhimmi, who believes that even the best of parental guidance may prove inadequate in competition with the seductions of secular society, was therefore surprised when no one cited Titus as a trigger for reevaluating the Governor’s leadership abilities.

[185] Posted by Dhimmi on 09-06-2008 at 12:50 PM • top

Dhimmi, is the Governor seeking eldership in a church somewhere?

[186] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-06-2008 at 12:53 PM • top

Jill Woodliff:

From a spiritual perspective, we are a church under judgment.  Is it not possible that one day we could become a nation under judgment?

I think we already are a nation under judgment.  I don’t see how it could be otherwise.  The genocidal slaughter of 40,000,000 children in the wombs of their own mothers since Roe v. Wade would be enough to put us there.  And yet, even an atrocity of these proportions is merely symptomatic of a much greater underlying problem.

The Church’s message is: “Repent, and believe Christ’s holy gospel.”  For the most part, the world’s response is still:  “No, we would rather go to hell, and we would like to begin now.”  This is just as true of our own nation as it is of any other.  That is what has brought us to our current state.  And living under judgment, and giving witness to a world under judgment, makes it vitally important that Christians pay very careful attention to what they do and how they do it.

Who I vote for in an election is not going to save my soul, or the nation, and I do not attribute any moral fault to sincere Christians who support Senator McCain in the conviction that he is truly the best choice for president.  But I am persuaded that there is a moral calculus involved, even in electoral politics, which ought to cause us to look beyond purely pragmatic considerations.  As a Christian, who I vote for, and why I vote for them, is a form of witness to the nation under judgment in which I live.

[187] Posted by episcopalienated on 09-06-2008 at 01:07 PM • top

Dhimmi, is the Governor seeking eldership in a church somewhere?

Thank you for that clear statement, Matt.

Peace,
Pat
Take It for What It’s Worth

[188] Posted by Pat Kashtock on 09-06-2008 at 01:08 PM • top

In response to 186 and 188, Dhimmi points out that a broad exegesis of Titus 1:6 could lead to applying it to leadership roles in general.  Life, after all, should be an integrated continuum and not a cluster of sealed compartments. 

On a similar topic, how come so many convention speakers ended by saying “God bless you.” or “God bless America.” but never (when I was tuned in) heeded Matthew 5:44 and said “God bless our enemies.”?

[189] Posted by Dhimmi on 09-06-2008 at 01:27 PM • top

Ol’ Bob, I’m all for free enterprise.  I just wonder if our national debt (both private and public), coupled with disregard for financial safeguards by a few leaders of financial institutions, might ultimately create an unstable situation.  But what do I know?
Episcopalienated, agreed.

[190] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 09-06-2008 at 05:15 PM • top

Jill, thanks for your thoughtful response.

I share your concerns about the magnitude of debt, both public and private.  I am not sure precisely what level is safe or what level is dangerous, but I am confident that there is a safe level and a dangerous level.  I do not think debt to pay for assets, such as homes, churches, buildings, roads and airports which last for decades is bad by definition, but needs to be assessed in relation to assets, revenue/earnings/cash flow and other metrics.

I tend to assess public debt not so much by the absolute amount as by its relationship to Gross Domestic Product, just as I do corporate debt by its relationship to assets, revenues and other metrics.

My sense, overall, is that, while we may be flirting with it, we are not yet in the dangerous range.

Your concern about whether the United States is a nation in judgment is an area in which my understanding is probably both narrow and shallow.  My sense is that we probably are not, but I sure don’t know.  Our moral and ethical standards are and have been declining.  I am reminded of the old saw that a sick person must get worse before he can get better.  We certainly have gotten worse.  We have been in a downward ethical and moral cycle for several decades, maybe a century, but I think I am beginning to see signs of the beginnings of a reversal of that trend. 
Maybe we are on the threshold of getting ready to get better, fixin’ to get better as we say where I grew up.  I only have to look at you, Matt+ and many of the others commenting on this blog to get reassurance of that.

God bless.

[191] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-06-2008 at 05:48 PM • top

I think this is interesting.  A video greeting from Governor Sarah Palin to the Alaskan Independence Party at their 2008 convention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwvPNXYrIyI
A very gracious gesture on her part, and one which appears to reflect a genuine appreciation for the value of third party movements in our political life.
Although it has been incorrectly reported that Governor Palin was once a member of the AIP, she is in fact a lifelong Republican.  Her husband, however, did register as an AIP member back in the 90s.
An Alaskan Independence Party candidate, Walter Hickel, was elected governor in 1990 but later became a Republican.
The AIP supports the candidacy of Pastor Chuck Baldwin and the Constitution Party in this year’s presidential election.
Thank you, Governor Palin.

[192] Posted by episcopalienated on 09-06-2008 at 06:36 PM • top

In response to 186 and 188, Dhimmi points out that a broad exegesis of Titus 1:6 could lead to applying it to leadership roles in general.  Life, after all, should be an integrated continuum and not a cluster of sealed compartments.

—because the letter to Titus addresses work within the church, among those who identify themselves as belonging to the Lord. Paul issued directives for the body of Christ and it’s governing, not to the secular world.

It does not appear that the same criteria were used in national governing. King David did not meet the criteria for an elder, yet he was king of a nation.

Peace,
Pat Kashtock
Take It for What It’s Worth

[193] Posted by Pat Kashtock on 09-06-2008 at 09:26 PM • top

As a Christian who believed that the likes of Dobson have been total hypocrites in this situation, I agree that Dobson’s reaction to this situation is valid, commendable and totally appropriate. And your justifications for evangelical’s response is right. But, the hypocrisy is in the reality that if Palin were a “lefty” (or Michelle Obama) and her daughter became pregnant, she would have been excoriated and presented as exhibit A of the danger such an administration will pose for American values. There would be no forgiveness or grace offered. So, yes I think there was hypocrisy.

[194] Posted by iojet on 09-06-2008 at 11:54 PM • top

iojet 194
Are you claiming someone is a hypocrite based on your belief about how someone might act in a hypothetical situation?  Wow!

[195] Posted by JustOneVoice on 09-07-2008 at 12:03 AM • top

#104 #105   Iojet and Just one voice.  I admit that I don’t often watch The Daily Show, a family member directed me to its website for a “split screen” on exactly the issue you raise.  The target?  primarily conservative news media An example:  Bill O’Reilly’s excoriation of Britany Speer’s parents because of her pregnant 16 year old sister a few weeks ago weeks and his excoriation of those who condemned Palin for such similar “failures” this week.  The segment spoofed several such commenters and simply validated the point that hypocrisy exists and further, words will come back to roost.

[196] Posted by EmilyH on 09-07-2008 at 05:09 AM • top

Episcopalianated (#192)

I’ve got my eye on Baldwin too.  During the last election, I was toying with the idea of voting Constitution Party, but found the guy a bit wierd on some aspects of his platform.  Later, it occured to me, “So what if he’s wierd on some aspects of his platform?!! It’s not as if he’ll be elected!”  Heh.  smile

Great Palin video.  Nothing condescending or even, “Here, I’ll throw you a biscuit,” about it.  She’s even dressed like an ordinary Alaskan. 

(Sigh).  If only.  smile

[197] Posted by Moot on 09-07-2008 at 06:30 AM • top

EmilyH, I don’t think Bill O’Reilly is an “evangelical”, is certainly not a reglious leader or thinker in the manner of Dobson, and I must admit having never developed a liking for O’Reilly.

[198] Posted by AndrewA on 09-07-2008 at 07:40 AM • top

Sarah 161: Your comments on Taking on a TEC Bishop or two is one of the reasons I read SF. Also because on issues where I lack understanding and would prefer to just rant a rave and curse and throw things.  You do that through rated PG words.  But to take to task this ticket and the people who are astute and realize that we cannot give the election to obama.  So we are picking up our boots and going to vote for a flaw conservative presidential candidate and an awesome VP candidates.  When you get right down to it, Sarah Palin will e the one to take the boys on the hill to task as the President of the Senate.  If she so chooses she can jerk committee assignments and docket to her office away from the Majority Leader.  That would be an awesome thing…  Anyway thanks for the fun.  Keep taking those TEC Bishops to task, and pray that no matter who you vote for that the USA has SArah Palin in the Administration!!!.

And Joe Lieberman smile wink  That of course IS a joke.

[199] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-07-2008 at 07:45 AM • top

O’Reilly is a Roman Catholic ProLIfe Libertarian. I watch his show on occassion to watch what Cronkite wouldn’t do. Ok now I am off to Mass.

[200] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-07-2008 at 07:48 AM • top

Anglican Beach Party, no, a hypocrite is not someone who wants others to do the right thing. A hypocrite is someone who feigns a set of beliefs, in order to conceal his or her true beliefs. There is nothing altruistic about hypocrisy.

[201] Posted by mari on 09-07-2008 at 08:49 AM • top

I’m probably way off base here, but when I see folk willing to vote for an unelectable candidate because of perceived lack in the four who are indeed electable, my brain wanders a bit to something about “render unto Ceasar that which is his, and unto God that which is his”, or some such.

Of course the world and all that is in it is God’s, however, the political process is not necessarily.  It seems to me that doesn’t just apply to taxes, but even the election process (definitely man-made).

Should we stick to our guns and allow a person who does not have our best interests in heart and in fact one who wants to alter our country, until there is no continuity with God’s Blessing, and shun one with who we disagree on an important “Godly” issue?  Is there another choice, not if we listen to the above. Would we have “voted” to make St. Peter the head of the church?  Most assuredly NOT! He was a liar and a coward. Not only that he actually had a violent streak. 

BUT, God took this person with all his faults, and began a work that continues to this day.

What we can do, is vote for the person who (altho perhaps misled on a particular “Godly” issue), and pray that they will come to see what is right. And then trust Our Father to take care of the rest. 
IMHO
Grannie Gloria

[202] Posted by Grandmother on 09-07-2008 at 09:16 AM • top

#192—I’ve got news for you.  That video by Governor Palin did not have one word in it that meant anything other than “Hi, how are ya?”.  I don’t know what the AIP stands for, but if they support the Constitution Party, they know that once you are part of the USA you have made a decision that will not be changed.  For the affirmation on this they may call the Daughters of the Republic of Texas—a similar type of group.

[203] Posted by GB on 09-07-2008 at 09:20 AM • top

GB:

#192—I’ve got news for you.  That video by Governor Palin did not have one word in it that meant anything other than “Hi, how are ya?”.


Thanks for the news.  I like to keep up with current events.
But part of me still hopes that you’re not suggesting that Senator McCain’s choice for a running mate is sometimes less than sincere.
Of course, candidate Palin’s view of the Alaskan Independence Party could undergo a change.  She may be terribly put off by the fact that they’re not endorsing her.
Well, that’s understandable.  If her video greeting to their next convention begins with: “What the hell is wrong with you people?” then we’ll know for sure.
That’s certainly not the kind of thing an insincere person would say. wink

[204] Posted by episcopalienated on 09-07-2008 at 11:19 AM • top

Moot:

I’ve got my eye on Baldwin too.  During the last election, I was toying with the idea of voting Constitution Party, but found the guy a bit wierd on some aspects of his platform.


I feel your pain!
I also considered voting for the Constitution Party in 2004, but ended up voting for W.  The problem I have is that I don’t want to fall in, however inadvertently, with reconstructionists.
You know more about that stuff than I do.  If you say “reconstructionist” to an Anglo-Catholic, our eyes roll back in our heads, then we have to go lie down for a while.  Followed by a Bloody Mary or two while the recovery process continues.
I still don’t really know if Chuck Baldwin is a “recon” or not, but here’s the problem I had in ‘04.  I e-mailed the CP twice, wanting to know how they felt about receiving support from non-Christians who are consistently pro-life and who actually believe in constitutional government.  I never got an answer.
I know Jews and Muslims who fit that description, and I can’t imagine why some of them shouldn’t be invited on board to help save the Republic.  The Republican Party (you know, the only ones we’re supposed to vote for in our unofficial one party system) is certainly courting their support.  But I think that’s as it should be.
Anyway, as protest votes go, I could do worse, so I’m once again giving consideration to the Constitution Party while the research continues.

[205] Posted by episcopalienated on 09-07-2008 at 11:49 AM • top

#204—I certainly think Governor Palin is sincere.  The problem is that she has even less government experience than Senator Obama, and if she should have to succeed to the office of president, all her talk about taking on big oil and putting the people first would be just that—talk, but no results.  As for me, I may cast the first protest vote of my life and go with the Libertarians or the Constitution Party.  If O’Reilly of Fox News is a Libertarian, then that that tells me a lot that I needed to know about them.

[206] Posted by GB on 09-07-2008 at 12:48 PM • top

Episcopalianated (#205),

I’ve been nosing around a bit on the internet.  I have a pretty good nose for Reconstructionist types, and he doesn’t smell like one.  The only thing was that one article mentioned some bad blood between Baldwin and Romney, but I couldn’t find anything about that - might just be some Ron Paul / Romney sabre rattling from the primaries. 

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/sketch.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Baldwin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aLQUD1nqB8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oom5GtWULkg&feature=related

I e-mailed the CP twice, wanting to know how they felt about receiving support from non-Christians who are consistently pro-life and who actually believe in constitutional government.  I never got an answer.

I have a similar story - they might just be understaffed. 

I listened to a couple of grass-roots type Ron Paul / Churck Baldwin videos (Baldwin had supported Paul when he was running for president), and they gave the impression that both of them are for freedom of religion. 

If you say “reconstructionist” to an Anglo-Catholic, our eyes roll back in our heads, then we have to go lie down for a while.  Followed by a Bloody Mary or two while the recovery process continues.

Look on the bright side.  At least it didn’t originate in Anglo-Catholic circles.  It came from conservative Reformed circles, our own autistic child to keep us humble.  So if you must self-medicate, you really should be having your own Mardis Gras instead. 

But a Bloody Mary swilled in despondency? 
..Gimme that!  (swipe!)  (Gulp!)

[207] Posted by Moot on 09-07-2008 at 05:31 PM • top

Reconstructionist?  What are you talking about?

This?  http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Progressive_Reconstructionist

[208] Posted by AndrewA on 09-07-2008 at 08:28 PM • top

Sarah, (#161,162)

“But I’d be very curious . . . would the Republicans on this thread have voted for Guiliani, as opposed to Obama?”

No, I would have voted for Obama first with your idea of letting the GOP burn and hoping for a better choice in the future. 

“Once you’ve sacrificed your integrity and principle and honor and conscience out of fear of a consequence—however bad you think that consequence may be—you have started down a path that will bring great shame and misery, not only to you and your own, but even to strangers.”

“And I am appalled at the consequences of voting for anyone that the Republican Party throws at the conservatives.”

The nominees are elected by millions of GOP voters, not selected by the party.  I don’t think a strategic vote for someone that is not perfect but much better is a sacrifice of integrity. It is clear after George HW Bush was not reelected after violating his no taxes pledge that a GOP president cannot be elected without the conservatives.  It is also clear that a conservative GOP president cannot be elected without the moderates in the party.  If they break up as you seem to wish, the consequences will be far greater than a couple of terms of a moderate GOP or liberal Demo president.  This year is an example of what the Dems will give you when they don’t believe they need to appeal to the middle (they thought they had it in the bag - maybe they do). 

So why vote for McCain?
1) McCain is pro life.
2) McCain is for reform of the influence and corruption that has turned the GOP into a big spending government party.
3) McCain is for cutting the federal budget.
4) McCain will sacrifice himself to protect this country.
5) McCain selected Palin rather than Liberman.  If he were to abandon the conservatives now or in the future, he would be an ineffective president b/c he would have no supporters in the congress.  He knows he will have to dance with the one that brought him.
6) The big problem with the government is that there has been no room for moderates.  The far left and right take turns trying to one-up each other until neither can see what it is doing to the country. McCain has the respect of both sides and perhaps he can win over some of the conservative democrats to gain a governing majority that puts an end to the power of Harry and Nancy.

[209] Posted by BillK on 09-07-2008 at 09:54 PM • top

(#208),

Reconstructionist?  What are you talking about?

Actually, I think my friend was referring to this.

[210] Posted by Moot on 09-08-2008 at 03:03 AM • top

210:  That link doesn’t work.

[211] Posted by AndrewA on 09-08-2008 at 03:41 AM • top

I love to the read comments on this page.  Here’s a fundamental question, “Can a Christian vote for a Marxist?”  Whether you choose to believe it or not one candidate for the presidency of the United States of America is a Marxist. Listen to the candidates (Pres and VP) and then read the Communist Manifesto.  Sarah Palin and her family have problems just like the rest of us. We are all sinners.  Good Lord forgive us!!  However, she is a Christian and pretty far removed from another candidate in her beliefs unless,of course, you believe his recent “religious” comments. Think about it Christians. God have mercy on us.

[212] Posted by adamsmith on 09-08-2008 at 04:37 PM • top

“Had it been Chelsae Clinton, they speculated, then the response would have been quick and judgmental. Dobson and other evangelicals, they said, demonstrate, once again, that political expediency trumps moral consistency.”

Face it, Kennedy.  They’re right, man.

Sometimes I just don’t get your (read: American) political reasoning.

MGD

[213] Posted by Michael Daley on 09-12-2008 at 05:50 PM • top

I am so disappointed with the choices we have for President/VP.  I quit the Republican party (which touts most of my beliefs as their own) because of the dismal mess they made of their opportunity to lead our country.  And now they are still trying to “play the ideolog card” and it is insulting…what about bringing our country together..what about our failing economy…what about getting off the personality track and get some real answers to our most pressing problems.  We know our church is going down the drain but so is our country and we’re letting them play US like a cheap violin…lets’ get back to statesmanship and real politics and demand more than a pro-life commitment from those who profess to stand for orthodox Christian values!!  Let’s demand answers and leadership if they want our vote!! We don’t need another “Pope W”... We need an intelligent, honest, smart president…

[214] Posted by Mrs R on 09-13-2008 at 01:45 PM • top

John McCain has exposed this woman to ridicule and scorn for her lack of appropriate temperament, experience and knowledge—and for the skeletons in her closet that she assumed would remain private. He was reckless in making this appointment without vetting her—and without consideration of what this would mean for her. This was a cynical appointment and it puts both McCain and Palin in the position of telling lie after lie to justify McCain’s impetuosity.

[215] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 09-13-2008 at 01:51 PM • top

heh

things aren’t quite working out as planned for the messiah huh Tom+?

[216] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-13-2008 at 01:57 PM • top

Tom, I had no doubt that at some point you would swing by and post some drive by comment without adequate evidence.  So I’m calling on you now to immediately respond to what evidence you have that McCain did not properly vet Palin.  How do you know he was not advised of these things YOU judge to be unacceptable for office but still determined her to be worthy?  As for inexperience, give me a break!  Unless you are supporting the third party candidate - you need to show us how BHO has adequate experience unless you want to count where he voted against giving medical attention to those poor children who survived abortion in Chicago?  There is much more your impetuous post deserves but I’ll stop here.
So and I say this as kindly as I can, put up or shut up.

[217] Posted by JackieB on 09-13-2008 at 02:00 PM • top

TBWSantefe (#215),

For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, there is ample evidence that Gov. Palin was under consideration months ago.  There has been a blog and stuff on social web sites supporting Palin for months.  The McCain campaign did a masterful job of keeping the VP nominee choice process confidential.  You seem to imply that because you did not know what was going on, neither did they.  Not a very good assumption, Tom.

Is it possible that you are peeved because of the results her nomination has produced in the campaign?

How about Jackie’s request in #217, Tom?  Do you have any facts to suggest that you really know what the McCain VP vetting team knew and when they knew it?  How about it, Tom?  Let’s hear it!

[218] Posted by Ol' Bob on 09-13-2008 at 02:29 PM • top

#200, Bill O’Reilly is a pro-life Roman Catholic.  However, he is not a Libertarian, but rather an independant.

[219] Posted by terrafirma on 09-13-2008 at 03:37 PM • top

It seems to me that some of you believe that it’s going to be possible to inherit the Bush war and the Bush tax cuts, and not put taxes up afterwards.  Whoever is in the White House in January 2009 will inherit a tremendous mess, and will have nothing but hard and unpopular choices to make.  Pray for that person, and your country.

[220] Posted by Henry Troup on 09-13-2008 at 07:35 PM • top

Terrafirma:
I am quoting him in an interview from 2002 where he stated he is a social libertarian.  October 8th 2002. However he IS a Registered Independent.  Even though his voting records indicate a Republican Party bias. Tell everyone at HC hello this morning.
Henry troup: 
I pray for the President, and have since I started praying. I always pray for our country.  The economic mess was started not by our current president but by President Clinton.  The Bush War is not entirely accurate either.  The war came from many in the Bush Administration and can also be blamed on congress whom, if I remember correctly passed the war by overwhelming margin.  Also, now the Dems have control and THEY are spending more than the fiscally liberal Republicans. So now all we have in Washington is SPENDERS.  No one in the media reports that spending by this congress has gone up 42% from the last which is to a GRAND TOTAL of 435 BILLION DOLLARS, not including fema bail out money…
So don’t start thinking you can play party crap here.  BOTH parties have made HUGE mistakes over the past 12 years. Which is why I am voting for change.  I am writing in +Jack Iker for President!!  smile

[221] Posted by johnnyreb on 09-14-2008 at 06:35 AM • top

118..As a Continuing Anglican, I remind them that my church produced the King James Version.  So far I haven’t received any silly comebacks on that one.

I once told a Baptist aquaintance the very same thing. His response, “well God can wring miracles out of even the darkest evil”. Thanks Spong and Robinson, you are the face of the Anglican Church for many.

[222] Posted by kalee on 09-14-2008 at 08:18 PM • top

It seems to me that I read somewhere a statement made by a VERY RIGHTOUS MAN that goes like this: Judge not lest you be judged”.  Does anyone remember that?

[223] Posted by KingsKid on 09-15-2008 at 04:30 PM • top

Evidence?  Evidence that McCain did not adequately vet her?
He thought she opposed the Bridge to Nowhere - she was for it.
He thought she was against earmarks, she was one of the worst offenders.
He thought she had nothing to hide, she is ordering people not to meet with Troopergate investigators from the State legislature, not providing her tax returns (big problems with unreported income).
He thought she had sold the airplane on e-bay at a good profit, she did not sell it on e-bay and she lost money on it.
He thought she could pass on foreign policy and experience, she said she had visited Iraq and Ireland but had not visited either (Ireland stop was for refueling).
He has got to have been unaware of her speaking in tongues, her belief that the Iraq war is “God’s war,” etc.,
So you think McCain had any idea about the character of Bristol’s “intended?” Read his piece on MyFace. Wow!!
Just about everything McCain had written into her acceptance speech has been proven to be a lie. That is vetting?

I don’t fault Sarah Palin for her own beliefs or for many of her actions—the problem is that John McCain, in nominating her without any real investigation (that’s the other thing, you can’t find anyone near her except her husband who was actually talked to by McCain people), has held her up to ridicule and has put this country at great peril. There were plenty of other conservatives available.  Of course, his first pick was Joe Lieberman—but Maverick caved and chose her.

[224] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 09-15-2008 at 10:13 PM • top

Yes, credibility questions seem to be everywhere.

[225] Posted by Jackie on 09-15-2008 at 10:30 PM • top

TBW,
Your liberal parroting is amusing. Where do we start? It is undisputed Palin declined funding for the bridge, although she had earlier supported the potential construction of a bridge as a candidate. A video of her church talk about the Iraq war reveals clearly that she was talking about the need to pray that as a nation we are aligned with God’s will, not to presume that God’s will should be aligned with our own. Palin listed the state plane on ebay just as she said she did, and only sold it through a broker when they did not get a bidder.

Your comments about the boyfriend of her daughter reflect much more about your character than his.

Why dont you just get to the bottom line now and save some ink? Palin worships in a church that believes in the divinity of Christ and His physical resurrection. She believes that the Bible is the Word of God. Consequently, she is pro-life. I don’t know for sure if she will make a good President, but I do know it is these characteristics, not the nonsense you have listed, that are driving the liberals crazy.  That actually gives me hope.

[226] Posted by Going Home on 09-15-2008 at 11:25 PM • top

From over this side of the pond we see that a party which used the Pro-Life tag to garner Evangelical votes has been in power for two terms but AFAIA done nothing about the issue during that time. Is that a fair description?

[227] Posted by Postie on 09-16-2008 at 03:31 AM • top

Yeah Potsie, agreed, problem is…that doesn’t do much to argue for the party that SAYS it will facilitate baby killing

[228] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 09-16-2008 at 03:44 AM • top

I would say that many Republicans have acted within the limits the courts will allow to place restrictions upon abortion, ranging from the “Born Alive Act” to parental notification laws, whereas many Democrats have strongly apposed even the most reasonable of restrictions such as requiring that the legal guardians of minors be informed when their children undertake a major “medical” procedure.

[229] Posted by AndrewA on 09-16-2008 at 03:55 AM • top

On the issue of the Palin plane…  Her speech at the convention was factual.  She did put it on Ebay.  It was McCain who said it was sold at a profit.  The facts are that it did not sell on Ebay.  It was sold at a “loss”  But “loss” can be measured in many ways, what was the maintenance budget on the aircraft, What was its depreciated value at the time of sale?  What costs have been incurred for other forms of travel?  In dollars and time? etc.  Her “I put it on Ebay” McCain’s “sold it at a profit” and CNN’s no, sold at a loss (It looked like about 600K down from “new” or when acquired, need some real fact checking.)
Having lived in a big western state,  I know that a plane is a pretty common investment,  this one may have been cost-effective—- or not—but the nuances don’t make it into speeches or 20 second sound bites.

[230] Posted by EmilyH on 09-16-2008 at 04:00 AM • top

Matt: sure :( But I was wondering if I’d missed something.
Andrew: Don’t the courts implement what the legislature has set down?

[231] Posted by Postie on 09-16-2008 at 04:09 AM • top

The facts are Palin put the jet on ebay and has never said she sold it there.  Ever sold something used?  What are your expectations of getting 100% return on the purchase price?  Murkowski paid $2.7m for a 20 year old jet with quarterly payments of about $62K.  Palin sold the jet for $2.1K after it did not sell on ebay.  Murkowski’s travel expenses for the year 2006 were $525,392.  The annualized travel expenses of Palin in 2007 were $164,000.  You do the math on whether she made a smart move considering the maintenance upkeep (not to mention the cost of pilots)for a 21 year old jet that could not land on a rural airstrip in Alaska.  Sometimes the smart thing to do is cut your losses.  As to a profit?  Just the savings of $361,392 in travel expenses impresses me.  I’d also remind you this woman has an 80% approval rating in the state of Alaska.  Seems like its only the Murkowski crowd that is upset.

[232] Posted by JackieB on 09-16-2008 at 05:29 AM • top

John McCain, in nominating her without any real investigation ... has held her up to ridicule and has put this country at great peril.

(Shrug)  The people who ridiculed her would have done so anyhow.  I perused the myspace page in question (not sure if it’s the Real McCoy, but the blog comments are the more interesting anyhow).  One of the commenters e.g., put up a picture of a coat hanger, as a “joke.” 

You see Tom, this isn’t about what we might fault Palin for (and she did a good job of defending herself against a lot of your criticisms, btw), it’s about what she cannot be faulted for.  She can’t be faulted for aborting a baby with Down’s Syndrome.  She can’t be faulted for not standing by her daughter, in her short journey between childhood and adulthood. 

No, it’s the things that can’t be said about her, I think, that get people stirred up. 

... and has put this country at great peril.

So melodramatic.  Pray tell, how?  Let me see if I can guess:  By putting up a cantidate who has more leadership experience than Obama?

[233] Posted by Moot on 09-16-2008 at 05:29 AM • top

Andrew: Don’t the courts implement what the legislature has set down?

I’m getting the impression you aren’t American, and if you are you skiped Civics class.  Courts have the capacity to declare a law to be invalid or unconstitutional.  The “Roe vs Wade” in the 1970’s ruling invalidated all the American laws against abortion, based on what many conservatives consider a dubious legal reasoning.  Until Roe vs Wade is overturned, the legislatures can not outlaw abortion.
Many legislatures have, almost always at Republican prompting, attempted to place limits on abortion short of totally outlawing all abortion (which is not possible).  Sometimes those limits have stood, and sometimes they have failed to pass or have been overturned because of liberal opposistion.  The Democratic nominee has promised that when he is elected, he will pass a federal law overturning all the state level restrictions that have been placed on abortion.  It is also safe to say he will appoint pro-abortion judges to federal courts, making any future attempt to overturn Roe-vs-Wade that much more unlikely.  So yes, it does make a difference which party is in power when it comes to abortion.

[234] Posted by AndrewA on 09-16-2008 at 06:05 AM • top

Andrew: I’m English. Thanks for a very clear explanation.

[235] Posted by Postie on 09-16-2008 at 07:12 AM • top

I do love the justification for Sarah Palin’s lies and deceptions. My favorite is her contention that her foreign affairs experience includes her time in Ireland. Unfortunately, her time in Ireland was during the refueling stop of her airplane!

She is who she is—the disgrace is on John McCain, who used to be so very different. He has put our country at terrible risk—do you really want SP as “leader of the free world,” as the one to guide us through our financial crisis, as the one to decide which countries we should bomb next?  That is not a liberal or conservative mess—it is the country’s mess.

I don’t want Keith Obermann or Rush Limbaugh running our country either.  The sad fact is that when legislators and other prominent people in Alaska were asked about McCain’s vetting process—they ALL said that they had not been contacted or questioned about her.

[236] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 09-20-2008 at 03:16 PM • top

do you really want SP as “leader of the free world,” as the one to guide us through our financial crisis, as the one to decide which countries we should bomb next?  That is not a liberal or conservative mess—it is the country’s mess.

Short answer - yes.  I would rather have Sarah Palin a heartbeat away from being my president than risk the damage the liberal agenda will do to our country - not to mention our unborn.  Or do you also ascribe to the theory that the disabled should be killed for the good of the economy?

[237] Posted by JackieB on 09-20-2008 at 03:29 PM • top

I’d rather see Sarah Palin the leader of the free world than Joe Biden, that’s for sure.

It’s pretty obvious that no one in Delaware was talked to when he was vetted, but of course, we only notice when it’s a girl.

[238] Posted by James Manley on 09-20-2008 at 03:37 PM • top

TBW, you prove you are a hypocrite with each attack and attempt to persecute. It is you, and yours in TEC that are intolerant, corrupt, hateful, and divisive.

I’m a liberal democrat, and I’m not voting for Obama, because from what I’ve seen and heard from people like you, I know now, that the negative stereotypes I used to defend my party against, are true.. And I’m not the only liberal democrat who feels this way. So keep spewing your venom you are proof of what the people of the US will reject.

[239] Posted by mari on 09-20-2008 at 04:17 PM • top

Jackie, I forwarded the url to that article from the Telegraph, and the articles regarding the far left’s demand that babies with Down’s Syndrome be aborted, to everyone I know.

[240] Posted by mari on 09-20-2008 at 04:20 PM • top

Can the sanctimony, Tom.  A lot of us are not at all comfortable with having a corrupt Chicago machine politician who isn’t all that bothered by terrorism or religious extremism and who’s been in the US Senate all of three years in the top job. 

Why is experience suddenly important to you people?  To put it another way, why wasn’t it important before?  On second thought, I already know the answer to those two questions.  Experience only matters if you’re a conservative Christian.  But if you’re a liberal who can speak in brain-dead platitudes, experience means nothing at all.

[241] Posted by Christopher Johnson on 09-20-2008 at 04:31 PM • top

do you really want SP as “leader of the free world,” as the one to guide us through our financial crisis, as the one to decide which countries we should bomb next?

What I do believe is that if the McCain ticket is as unworthy as you suggest, they wouldn’t have a chance of winning anyhow;  which is perplexing given your state of apoplexy.  Well no, it’s not perplexing. 

Not really. 

Poor Tom.  The hordes of mindless sheep reject clerics like him, and now they want a conservative Christian as one of their leaders in Washington.  The world is just slipping out of his fingers.  At this rate, he might have to work for a living, like the rest of us.

[242] Posted by Moot on 09-20-2008 at 05:00 PM • top

Powerful, powerful video from a Catholic organization regarding the important issues in this race. Everyone should watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61wj4tJICcc

[243] Posted by Going Home on 09-25-2008 at 02:10 PM • top

Christopher (241) “Corrupt Chicago politician?” That, of course, is plain ludicrous. If you are concerned about corruption in politics, check out John McCain’s long involvement in the Keating S&L;mess than cost taxpayers billions of dollars. Though he just got a reprimand, when you read accounts of the mess you will see the depth of his involvement in leading the fight against accountability.

I do find it interesting to read the consistent attacks on Barack Obama on this thread—wonder what that is about?  FYI, though the several who have attacked my responses pin the label of “liberal” on me (the Psalms are very generous to those so called), I served in the Republican administration of Tommy Thompson in Wisconsin. As you remember, he went on to become the first Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare in the George W. Bush administration.

[244] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 09-26-2008 at 11:47 AM • top

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