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Presiding Bishop’s Memo Outlining Duncan Deposition

Saturday, September 13, 2008 • 11:02 am


Plucked like rotting fruit from the tree of the College of Bishops’ “secure” web site… I present to you the Presiding Bishop’s memo detailing her plans to depose Pittsburgh bishop Bob Duncan.

September 12, 2008

Memorandum to the House of Bishops
Subject: Bishop of Pittsburgh

Sisters and Brothers:

As has been widely reported, at the forthcoming business meeting of the House in Salt Lake City on September 18, I shall present to the House the matter of the certification to me by the Title IV Review Committee that Bishop Robert W. Duncan has abandoned the Communion of this Church within the meaning of Canon IV.9. In this memorandum, I layout the background of this matter and what I see as the procedural and substantive issues that are raised by it.

1. The Title IV Review Committee Certification

As the House has been informed previously, in November 2007 I directed a submission by my Office to the Title IV Review Committee that enclosed materials suggesting that Bishop Duncan had abandoned the Communion of this Church within the meaning of Canon IV.9. That submission recited that Bishop Duncan had supported first readings of amendments to the Constitution of the Diocese of Pittsburgh at the last Diocesan Convention that, among other things, would delete the unqualified accession by the Diocese to the Constitution and canons of the Episcopal Church. The submission also recited Bishop Duncan’s leadership of a program under which delegates to the next Diocesan Convention in October 2008 would determine whether or not to adopt a second reading of the proposed amendments to the Diocesan Constitution deleting the “accession” clause, and pass a resolution purporting to make the Diocese a member of another Province within the Anglican Communion. Further details of Bishop Duncan’s program were outlined in a second submission to the Review Committee by certain lay and clerical members of the Diocese of Pittsburgh.

The thrust of the foregoing submission by my Office was not that Bishop Duncan had already left the Episcopal Church, but rather that he had in his episcopal leadership role taken the position that the Diocese had the option of either remaining subject to the Constitution and canons of this Church or leaving this Church for membership in another Province of the Communion; and that in that role he was encouraging the Diocese to choose to leave. The submission suggested, therefore, that Bishop Duncan, by pressing his position that the Diocese had such a choice and should exercise it by disaffiliating from the Episcopal Church, had abandoned the Communion of this Church by “an open renunciation of the ... Discipline ... of this Church” within the meaning of Canon IV.9(1)(i).

The Review Committee evidently agreed with that analysis and on December 17, 2007 certified to me as Presiding Bishop that Bishop Duncan had abandoned the Communion of this Church. Shortly thereafter, I asked the three senior bishops having jurisdiction in this Church, pursuant to Canon IV.9(1), to consent to Bishop Duncan’s inhibition pending presentation of the matter to the House of Bishops, but not all these bishops gave their consent.

2. Bishop Duncan’s Response

As the House has also been previously informed, on January 15, 2008, I informed Bishop Duncan of the Review Committee’s certification and pointed out the provisions of Canon IV.9 that permitted him to respond to this certification in advance of a meeting of the House of Bishops at which consent to his deposition from the ordained ministry of this Church would be sought. On March 14, 2008, Bishop Duncan responded in a letter in which he stated that he considered himself fully subject to the Doctrine, Discipline and Worship of this Church, and described certain actions that he believed supported that view. I concluded then, and I remain of the view now, that that response was not a sufficient “declaration ... that the facts alleged in the certificate are false,” and that therefore Bishop Duncan remains “liable to Deposition” under Canon IV.9(2). Moreover, since his letter of March 14, 2008, Bishop Duncan has made clear, both in responses to questions put to him in litigation within his diocese and in his recent letter to the House, that he does indeed support the proposed amendments to the Diocesan Constitution referred to above and a purported “realignment” of the Diocese of Pittsburgh with the Province of the Southern Cone.

3. Presentation to the House of Bishops

As stated above, I intend to bring this matter before the House at its forthcoming meeting in Salt Lake City. Prior to the business meeting on September 18, I shall ask my Council of Advice to hold an informal evening meeting to “investigate the matter” pursuant to Canon IV.9(1) at which members of the House can offer views and participate in a discussion concerning Bishop Duncan’s conduct. While Bishop Duncan has unfortunately announced that he will not attend this meeting of the House, his supporters may at this hearing offer factual and opinion material as to why he has not abandoned the Communion of this Church.

As stated above, the House will be asked whether or not it will consent to Bishop Duncan’s deposition at the business meeting on September 18, when there will be opportunity for further discussion. At that time, the House may, by majority vote of those present, grant or withhold its consent or decline to vote until a later time. In that regard, some have suggested that a vote not be taken until a later meeting of the House after the forthcoming Convention of the Diocese in early October, when Bishop Duncan’s intentions and actions can perhaps be viewed more clearly.

At this meeting there may be raised the question whether, under Canon IV.9, the House may proceed to grant or withhold its consent to Bishop Duncan’s deposition on the ground that the three senior bishops have not consented to his inhibition. It is the position of my Chancellor, after reviewing the apparent intent of the canon and consulting several other chancellors and former chancellors, as well as the opinion of the Parliamentarian of the House, that the General Convention in enacting this canon did not intend to give the three senior bishops a “veto” over the House’s right to determine whether or not a bishop who has been certified by the Review Committee as having abandoned the Communion of this Church should be deposed. Rather, that decision was intended to be made by the House. The consent of the three senior bishops, they opine, was intended to be sought only on the matter of whether or not the bishop in question should be inhibited pending the proceeding before the House, and that any ambiguity in the language of the canon should be resolved in favor of the ability of the House itself to vote on this matter. In their view, and in the language of the canon, it is my “duty ... to present the matter to the House of Bishops” regardless of whether the bishop in question has been inhibited.

I concur with this advice, and that will be the ruling of the Chair. Any member of the House may appeal the ruling of the Chair, which may be overruled by a two-thirds vote pursuant to House Rule XV, p.192.

4. The Required Vote to Consent

There may also be raised at this meeting the question of whether consent to the deposition of a bishop who has been certified to have abandoned the Communion of this Church must be by a majority of bishops present at the meeting at which the matter is presented or, on the other hand, by a majority of all the voting members of the House whether or not in attendance. Canon IV.9(2) states that the vote to consent must, first, take place at a “regular or special meeting of the House” and, second, be “by a majority of the whole number of Bishops entitled to vote.” My Chancellor and the Parliamentarian of the House have both advised me that the canon means that the vote must be by a majority of all the bishops who are at the meeting at which the vote must be taken and who are entitled to vote. Their view is based on their conclusion that the language of the canon may be ambiguous, but that it should be interpreted to give practical effect to the stated direction by the General Convention that the vote must be taken at a meeting ofthe House. This direction differs from other provisions in the Constitution and the canons where votes by a majority of all the members of the House are required but that voting may be by ballot~, Art. 11.6 (consent to resignation of bishops); Canon IV.3(21)(c) (consent to doctrinal presentment of bishops). The Chancellor has informed me that this canon was amended in the 1870s and again in 1904 to make clear that the vote had to be taken at a meeting of the House, presumably so that all who would vote on such an important matter could hear the factual presentations and arguments on both sides of the question. He also has pointed out that by 1904 the number of members of the House who were not entitled to vote was growing, as suffragan bishops, whose election and ordination were being permitted for the first time in our history, were nevertheless not given the right to vote in the House until the 1940s.

Finally, the Chancellor has noted with respect to the requirement that the vote be taken at a meeting of the House that most meetings of the House are not attended by a majority of all the voting members of the House. Thus, in the last several Triennia, while a majority of all voting members of the House were present at the meetings held in conjunction with a meeting of the General Convention, such a majority was not present at most of the interim and special meetings.

And, at those interim and special meetings where a majority was present, the majority was only by a bare handful, so that under an opposing reading of the canon, a vote to consent to the deposition of a bishop would have had to have been virtually unanimous. My Chancellor advised me that the votes to consent to the depositions of Bishop Davies, the resigned Bishop of Fort Worth, in 1993, and Bishop Larrea, the Bishop of Ecuador Central, in 2004, were cast at interim meetings of the House at which no account was taken of the absent members and, indeed, less than a majority of all the voting members of the House appear to have been present.

In these circumstances, I concur with my Chancellor and the Parliamentarian that any ambiguity in the canon should be resolved in favor of making this important provision work effectively and that the discipline of the Church should not be stymied because a majority or nearly a majority of voting bishops are no longer in active episcopal positions in the Church and their attendance at meetings is hampered by age, health, economics, or interest in other legitimate pursuits.

That will be the ruling of the Chair, subject to appeal as discussed above.

I urge your prayerful reflection on these matters as you prepare for our meeting in Salt Lake City, and I remain

Your servant in Christ,

Katharine Jefferts Schori


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Comments:

I’ll start at the beginning, Greg, and stop after point 2 “Bishop Duncan’s response”.
Let me know if you want me to continue….

[1] Posted by GillianC on 09-13-2008 at 10:22 AM • top

I’ve coverted the entire letter to word - what would you like done with it?

[2] Posted by AngloTex on 09-13-2008 at 10:42 AM • top

She signs the memo “Your servant in Christ.” but she is truly an enemy of the Cross.
She is evil, and I hope that by the grace of God I can one day feel compassion for her soul instead of hatred.

[3] Posted by heart on 09-13-2008 at 10:49 AM • top

I look at it this way:  Schori is telling Bishop Duncan, and every other bishop who dares to publicly disagree with her, to “keep your mouth shut, or I will silence you.” 

She’s telling that he’s automatically guilty without giving him either a fair trial or a forum in which to state his views without facing the condemnation and wrath of a dictatorial woman claiming to be a “bishop.” 

If anyone deserves an inhibition and deposition, it’s Katharine Jefferts Schori!

[4] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 10:49 AM • top

I had hoped this would not take place now,  and am very distressed by the leadership role taken by one of the churches in the diocese in this matter.  That particular
church has had a history of ignoring the rest of the diocese for many decades, unless there were a particular agenda being pursued.  At the opposite pole theologically, another large, wealthy church has been equally removed from considering the rest of the diocese.  Hard not to call powerful churches at either end of the spectrum bullies.

[5] Posted by celindascott on 09-13-2008 at 10:52 AM • top

The road to perdition .....

[6] Posted by Rich on 09-13-2008 at 10:54 AM • top

Thanks, all! As you can see, the memo is now in text form in the main post. Thanks to all who contributed.

[7] Posted by Greg Griffith on 09-13-2008 at 11:00 AM • top

This memo from the Presiding Litigator and her lackey lawyer is almost beyond belief.

This is a totally gross distortion of the plain language of Canon IV.9 as so many have previously written about on Stand Firm. 

As I recall, the most detailed and scholarly work was done by the Anglican Curmudgeon here, here, and here.

If you have any doubt about the railroading being attempted here by Schori, Sauls, Beers, Bruno and others, do read this superb analysis.  I know that others (jamesw and ??) have also written extensively making the same points.

The point is that this is not some complex provision of Canon law.  I spent a number of years doing legislative drafting and I can assure you that this language is simple, straightforward and clear—and it should disgust every member of TEC to have Schori attempt to pull this off.

I certainly hope that this is a time when ++Howe and many others will stand up and be counted in loudly and publicly objecting.  In my opinion, their objections should begin now—well before the meeting so that as much pressure as possible can be brought to bear and that everyone (including the religion media) will recognize to what depths the “all-inclusive” TEC has gone to rid themselves of orthodox leaders.

[8] Posted by hanks on 09-13-2008 at 11:07 AM • top

It will be interesting to see if any of the “Windsor Bishops” stand to oppose this in any substantial way. 

#4 You are correct about who should be deposed.  The process for inhibiting her should have started long ago.  She may not have abandoned the communion of the organization, but she has abandoned the faith.  Thanks to milk toast members of the house of bishops, we have reached a point where Duncan, Iker, Ackerman and any others who dare take a stand will be hung out to dry while KJS- walks unchallenged.

Shame on our HOB for such a lack of fortitude, intestinal or other.

[9] Posted by frreed on 09-13-2008 at 11:15 AM • top

This woman is anything but a servant “in Christ”, of Christ, or anything else except seriously bad stuff.

Do you wish to add anything, +++Rowan?

[10] Posted by Passing By on 09-13-2008 at 11:19 AM • top

I think this is beyond the pail. How dare she take an action before Bishop Duncan. My trust level of any thing she says or does is at rock bottom. It is one thing to attempt to maintain the property which she correctly (in my opinion)has the right to do, but it is another to act so duplicitous. If she really felt her actions against such as +Duncan or +Scholfield were honorable she should want to face them in a Church trial, letting all sides speak on their positions. This is cowardly, disingenuous, and dishonest. This is a question a lawyer I guess, but isn’t it illegal to unjustly cause someone to lose their job?

[11] Posted by FrVan on 09-13-2008 at 11:20 AM • top

Please, please do not disturb the Archbishop of Canterbury. He has retreated to his sand pile and with his head buried deep, he is contemplating the “Anglican Communion”.

[12] Posted by Dan Crawford on 09-13-2008 at 11:25 AM • top

From my Not a Lawyer seat, I am hoping a couple who are lawyers will comment an issue.  It has been my experience that in a court battle any ambiguity in a document goes against the party that crafted the document and that they will revert to the meaning a plain reading provides.  All you legal eagles…..

[13] Posted by JackieB on 09-13-2008 at 11:36 AM • top

If anyone deserves an inhibition and deposition, it’s Katharine Jefferts Schori!

Heart (#3), I hate to have to tell you this, but Mrs. Jefferts Shori cannot be inhibited or deposed. Those disciplines can only be exercised on a priest or bishop. Since she is a woman she cannot be a priest, and since she is not a priest she cannot be a bishop (let alone Primate of the TEC, as she claims).

[14] Posted by Paterricardus on 09-13-2008 at 11:38 AM • top

I wrote a few lines to the Church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, declines to recognize us. Therefore, when I come, I shall not forget his conduct in ridiculing us with his wicked tongue. Not content with that, he not only declines to recognize our Brothers himself, but actually prevents those who would, and expels them from the Church. (3 John 1:9-10)

[15] Posted by vulcanhammer on 09-13-2008 at 11:40 AM • top

For her to read the canons in such a what that makes it easy to depose a bishop from his/her life’s work is really over the top.

If a majority of bishops eligible to vote aren’t present during the interim meetings, maybe you can’t depose anyone during those meetings.  Maybe those meetings don’t really mean a whole lot, either.

[16] Posted by Paul B on 09-13-2008 at 11:40 AM • top

Anglican Curmudgeon, where are you?

[17] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 11:42 AM • top

Let me know if you’ve heard this one before (from 1 Kings 21) about a similar property-grab:

So she wrote letters in Ahab’s name, placed his seal on them, and sent them to the elders and nobles who lived in Naboth’s city with him. In those letters she wrote:
    “Proclaim a day of fasting and seat Naboth in a prominent place among the people. But seat two scoundrels opposite him and have them testify that he has cursed both God and the king. Then take him out and stone him to death.”

Later in the chapter, Elijah prophesied that:

“And also concerning Jezebel the LORD says: ‘Dogs will devour Jezebel by the wall of Jezreel.’

I recommend reading the whole chapter and seeing how the Lord feels about the whole situation!

[18] Posted by Doug Stein on 09-13-2008 at 11:54 AM • top

If the woman can read that Jesus is NOT the only way to heaven in the Bible, it is no surprise that she can read the canons this way.

[19] Posted by RLundy on 09-13-2008 at 12:01 PM • top

Jackie (#13) and Cennnydd (#17), please take a look at the three links in my post (#8) about from Anglican Curmudgeon.

These are are thorough a legal analysis as you will find.  Great work, worth everyone reading.

[20] Posted by hanks on 09-13-2008 at 12:03 PM • top

Is there a legal fund we can contribute to so as to find a lawyer who can actually read the canons the way they are written?  Seems like we do not need much of a lawyer as they read plain enough to me.  All we need is to mount a dispute to the illegal path that KJS is trying to take.  The problem seems to be that no one does that.  I know, I know.  It is all politics.  But still, the meaning seems so clear.  This is like reading Animal Farm.

[21] Posted by old lady on 09-13-2008 at 12:05 PM • top

I am sorry, I did not preview my comment #21.  My antecedent in the last sentence is not at all clear.  Reading about the actions of KJS is like reading Animal Farm.

[22] Posted by old lady on 09-13-2008 at 12:08 PM • top

Jackie, 13, typically plain meaning of the language in question is the first thing that a court considers.  Where the plain meaning is not clear, courts consider a number of other things.  The rule of construing a document against the drafter is one rule of construction.  In this case, I’m not sure that rule applies, and there are others.

I lean toward the conclusion that the canon is not ambiguous and that it means a majority of all, not just those present.  But a court is extremely unlikely to get involved on that point, I think.

Whatever your views of the substance of the actions taken here, I think the procedural approach of this letter is a positive.  It lays out in advance the issues and the rationale for the PB’s interpretation and rulings, and it clearly states what needs to be done to overturn her rulings.  If there is some reliable account of any objection that may be made, and if the House has recorded roll call type votes on the deposition and on the rulings of the chair rather than voice votes, we will at least have achieved transparency in what is happening.

[23] Posted by DavidH on 09-13-2008 at 12:09 PM • top

DavidH - Again- not a lawyer opinion - but it sure seems +Duncan would have a great civil suit if this goes through.

[24] Posted by Jackie on 09-13-2008 at 12:17 PM • top

BY THE GRACE OF GOD I HAVE KNOWN MANY SERVANTS OF CHRIST, MS SCHORI, AND YOU ARE NO SERVANT OF CHIRST.

PRAYER FOR BISHOP DUNCAN:

  THANK YOU LORD THAT THE ANGEL OF THE LORD ENCAMPS AROUND BISHOP DUNCAN AND ALL THOSE WHO FEAR HIM AND RESCUES THEM.  (Psalm 34:26)

THANK YOU LORD THAT NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST (HIM) WILL PROSPER AND EVERY TONGUE THAT ACCUSES (HIM) IN JUDGEMENT, YOU WILL CONDEMN.  THIS IS THE HERITAGE OF THE SERVANTS OF THE LORD, AND THEIR VINDICATION IS FROM YOU, LORD.  IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.  AMEN.  (ISAIAH 54:17)

[25] Posted by BettyLee Payne on 09-13-2008 at 12:19 PM • top

Jackie, 24, reasonable people can disagree, but I do not think you’re right or that a court will ever consider whether +Duncan was properly deposed.  Barring a change in the law from Serbian Eastern Orthodox Diocese v. Milivojevich (US 1976), civil courts don’t consider whether ecclesiastical discipline was proper under the rules of the church.

[26] Posted by DavidH on 09-13-2008 at 12:26 PM • top

Sadly, DavidH is correct.  This is not a Civil Court matter.  Most do not release that Due Process is not a part of our Constitution and Canons (see the efforts to revise Title IV).

I also doubt that nearly any of the so-called orthodox, traditionalist, Windsor bishop will do a thing.  They didn’t last time.  Plus, like last time I bet they will not even allow a roll call vote…..it will just be a voice vote and no names recorded as to how anyone voted!

Also, it is clear that Harold Lewis is leading the way and is happy to be so helpful to TEC.  I believe he has purple fever.

Sad that matters have come to this.

Bishop Dunce I stand with you and you are in my prayers.

[27] Posted by Creighton+ on 09-13-2008 at 01:01 PM • top

Who has the pool guessing how many purple shirts suddenly can’t make the HOB meeting due to .. whatever?  Too cowardly to oppose the presiding priestess and yet unwilling to sign on to the lynching how many will simply not go to the meeting?

[28] Posted by Elizabeth on 09-13-2008 at 01:06 PM • top

I’ve been a Piskie for 47 years now, give or take nine months.  Tomorrow just may be my last visit to an Episcopal Church.  Why?  Well, although I am just a lay person, someday I just might be called to the diaconate.  As a deacon, someday I just might be called to the priesthood.  As a priest, I might someday be called to the episcopate.  As a bishop, I might someday be charged with some trumped up charge for something my diocese might do in the future.  To save Our Lady of Litigation the trouble of deposing me before any of this happens, I think I’ll just take my marbles and go play in another sandbox.  Katie, you can’t fire me.  I quit.  I am ashamed to have any association with this organization.

[29] Posted by Payton on 09-13-2008 at 01:08 PM • top

#29 God Bless Payton.  RCIA classes are just starting.  No strings attached.  Get in one and meet the good folks.  If you join, I promise I will travel to wherever Holy Saturday to be at your confirmation.

NB wink I may need travel $$$$$ assistance wink

[30] Posted by star-ace on 09-13-2008 at 01:28 PM • top

[3] heart,

The parallels are too abundant, and too abundantly clear, that she is as much anyone’s “servant in Christ” as another figure in the history of salvation, namely that personage who came strongly to my mind when I read this memorandum, that great high priest, Caiaphas.

In point of fact, the parallels are, in my mind, sufficiently strong, that I would have very few qualms about addressing her so to her face. Reading this memorandum today served, for me, as a clarion call that I no longer belong within TEC. The self-serving deceitfulness of her opinions, and the obseqious sycophancy of her so-called Council of Advice and Chancellor, are marks of such a thoroughgoing lack of moral and intellectual integrity that they make formal affiliation with TEC, as it has come to be, more of a disgrace than this old Naval officer will tolerate.

I am heartened that I asked one of my closest friends, a Roman Catholic, about the rosary and he presented me with one shortly before my departure to sea. I will probably continue to lurk here, and perhaps even offer observations, as my wife is not yet fully aware of all that has transpired, and therefore is not ready to cross the Tiber with me. And my prayers will be with you.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[31] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 09-13-2008 at 01:36 PM • top

I praise the Lord that I am part of a parish that has left TEC.  We (over 3/4 of the congregation) could take the actions of the PB and the TEC any longer.  We did not leave suddenly, but after much prayer and study felt that things had gone too far.  That was almost a year ago.  Isn’t it so lovely to be able to revise the canons of the church to suit one’s agenda.  The heretic woman raves on!  May the HOB look at the real picture and not the one being painted by the PB and her cohorts.

[32] Posted by sadie on 09-13-2008 at 01:43 PM • top

This is not a matter of Bishop Duncan disagreeing with our Presiding Bishop. If Stand Firm faithful have been following his career and public statements over the past 3-5 years, you will have applauded statement after statement ridiculing and demeaning the Episcopal Church.

Watch your copies of “Choose This Day” again and then decide if Bishop Duncan was affirming his submission to the doctrine and discipline of the Episcopal Church.

Don’t get me wrong. Bishop Duncan and I have been friends since the time he followed me as Episcopal Chaplain at the University of North Carolina—and I wish him well in his continuing religious journey. There comes a time, though, when he needs to be honest about his commitments—a time to move on to a denomination in which he can exercise his commitment to Jesus Christ with pride.

[33] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 09-13-2008 at 01:47 PM • top

So in your eyes, this is a good thing, Tom?  Sort of like the mother bird kicking the baby bird out of its comfortable nest so he can learn to fly?  It’s all for +Bob’s own good, in the end?  Unbelievable…

By the way, do you have a similar recommendation for those in orders whose “religious journey” puts them at odds with the canonical requirements of baptism before communion?  I mean, yours is such a wise and compassionate course that I think you ought to bless even more bishops with it!

[34] Posted by Connecticutian on 09-13-2008 at 01:54 PM • top

Sad to say, but I find no surprise here, in the tack taken by the PBess, or the timing of the same.  It has been forecast and broadcast for months now. 

This is only Kate’s version of Sherman’s March to the Sea .... and she and her merry band of litigators and PC goons, will loot, burn & pillage any diocese or parish that stands in the way of her goals. 

This month, +Bob Duncan is Atlanta and I suppose that next monthy, +Iker will be Savannah, for the troops are in motion.

She needs to get +Duncan in the crosshairs of her scope and pull the trigger, before he can take DioPitt out of TEC.  After he and the diocese is gone, all her actions would then signify is the value of pounding sand.

These are the steps she believes she needs to bully TEO into taking.  Fire him now and immediately appoint an interim toadie to occupy the see.  That’ll put the cat among the pigeons right enough .... and keep the property in TEO’s hands.

The success of failure of the PBess and her plan of ill will depends on whether or not, +Bob has a plan of action already in place, to meet this eventuality.

We shall see.

[35] Posted by Scotsreb on 09-13-2008 at 02:14 PM • top

Seems like a pre-emptive strike to me.  They’re pretty sure what +Duncan will do, so it’s best to remove his capacity to do it.  Sort of like taking out an enemy before they can do you harm.  Wait a minute, sounds like the Bush Doctrine to me.  Maybe the PB has had a conversion experience as part of her “journey.”

Fr. Darin Lovelace
St. Paul’s, Durant

[36] Posted by frdarin on 09-13-2008 at 02:21 PM • top

I truly believe, this person (masking as a PB and Christian)is Satan doing his/her work…..The long history of Episcopal secular priorities will soon be trumped by the Lord.
CS Lewis said it best:
“All that we call human history—money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery—[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy.”

[37] Posted by AnglicanRon on 09-13-2008 at 02:30 PM • top

Of course it is a pre-emptive strike. It will be followed immediately (likely hours, not weeks) by illegally deposing the standing committee and installing an illegally appointed puppet regime that will change the locks on every church in the diocese.
This will be followed up by leveling abandonment charges against +Iker and +Ackerman.  I think they will hold off on depositions against +Lawrence and +McPherson until next year.  They will probably just let +Howe retire- I seem to recall that he is not far from it- and replace him with someone intolerable to most of his diocese. It will keep on like this for another 7 years.
The 7 year time period not being governed by the PB’s remaining term, but by the number of years left in which TEC can expect to have a total membership of greater than 1/2 million.

[38] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 02:32 PM • top

You can bet that the elected Pittsburgh standing committee will be toast sometime this month.  KJS is going to do to them what she did in California.  I wonder who the newly appointed bishop will be.  You can bet that the newly appointed standing committee will be toadies from the parish that precipitated the deposition of +Duncan.  TEC becomes worse by the minute.  Any bishops who participate in the nullification of +Bob ought to be brought up on charges immediately.  They are the ones who will be guilty of abandoning the communion.

[39] Posted by terrafirma on 09-13-2008 at 02:34 PM • top

Good to hear from you Fr. Darin…....

[40] Posted by Dee in Iowa on 09-13-2008 at 02:38 PM • top

#33 TBW, he certainly coudn’t do so while in TEC, could he?  Like him, I am NOT committed to a denomination, but to Christ’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

[41] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 02:45 PM • top

Tom (#33) - Once again you gloss over the hi-jacking by the leadership of The Episcopal Church.  I would agree with you that those who no longer wish to follow 2,000+ years of teaching and the current mind of the Anglican Communion need to find employment elsewhere.  Afterall, it is the only honest thing to do.

[42] Posted by Jackie on 09-13-2008 at 02:52 PM • top

Tjmcmahon, you mentioned the changing of locks.  I remember that a bishop whom I will not name had the locks changed on a mission church, and the word got out that he might try it again elsewhere before he could attempt to do so.  He never did.  I wonder why?

[43] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 02:52 PM • top

Oh, and the Episcopal Church WAS hijacked, as Jackie said.  Would anyone care to deny that?

[44] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 02:54 PM • top

Today marks the beginning of a novena for the House of Bishops at Lent & Beyond.  Other prayers are also present, including a blessing for our enemies.

[45] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 09-13-2008 at 02:57 PM • top

I am aware of the “ban’ on posting links to other blogs here, but can’t figure out any way to draw the “powers that be” to “The Kraalspace (Dr. Mabuse)..  Please either bring it forward or advise all to read.

Its a scary post, about the dark and evil abroad in the world just now. Its called “Dark Hours”, which we are in, so many ways.

Please read it an pray for all, especially TX and +Duncan.

Grannie Gloria

[46] Posted by Grandmother on 09-13-2008 at 02:59 PM • top

Fr Van (#11)—I agree with your “beyond the pail.” My hurl overshot by at least two feet.

Now, seriously, it does sicken my stomach that the Episcopal Church has come to this. Surely, there could have been a different, creative, spiritual path for all of us.

[47] Posted by Gator on 09-13-2008 at 03:02 PM • top

Cennydd (and there is Welsh name if ever there was one) #43, I think all we can say is that he has not changed any more locks, yet.  Kinda like, Shaw in Massachusetts has not sued any more parishioners, lately.

[48] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 03:06 PM • top

Grandmother, #46, I went and read that blog post you mentioned. Yes, it’s scary. I think the main concern is that all of this was prophecied. It’s all very clear in the Bible. Matthew 24, Revelation, Jeremiah, Daniel, and Ezekial all have very important information for us right now. The problem is that nobody is realizing what is happening because nobody is really paying attention. Jesus told us to “be alert” to the signs of the end. The signs are here in full force. The beast is rising in Europe (The EU is pulling together into a single government comprising 10 nations). The harlot (the Roman Catholic Church) is riding the beast. The pope and cardinals are traveling around the world working at bringing people back into the Roman church from all the “daughters” of the Roman Catholic Church. The Anglican Communion is one of the daughters. RW has been having talks with the pope for years trying to join the daughter back with the mother. There are other denominations having the same talks with the pope. Just look at how many Anglicans right here on SF are talking about going to Rome. They are buying right into satan’s plan. We are to “come out” of the world. We are to be separate from the world which satan rules. The Roman Catholic church has always been, and will always be, based on paganistic ritualistic beliefs and practices. Anyone who is truly Christian will not even remotely affiliate with the RC church or any of its daughters. This has been the biggest deception on earth; satan’s work at its best.

I pray for all who just don’t see what is happening before their very eyes. I urge you all to wake up now and see where we are in prophecy. The earthquakes, pestilences, famines, droughts, wars, are all clear signs well described in Scriptures. The rising up again of the Holy Roman Empire and its government controls in Europe are all prophecied in Scriptures. THEY ARE HAPPENING NOW!! Wake up, folks! Read your Bibles. It’s all there in black and white.

[49] Posted by Mugsie1 on 09-13-2008 at 03:35 PM • top

I think Bishop Duncan’s participation in the consecration of some of the African suffragans who are serving in the United States might be a charge if he were brought to trial, but to argue that his actions at a diocesan convention are “abandonment” stretches the term beyond its real meaning.

[50] Posted by TomRightmyer on 09-13-2008 at 03:51 PM • top

Almighty God and father
Protect and preserve your servant Robert Duncan from the wiles of the prince of this world and his servants.  Turn Katberine Jefferts-Schori from the path he has set and save your church.
Amen

[51] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 09-13-2008 at 03:53 PM • top

Glad you saw the blog. However, I didn’t take it as an ‘end times” piece. Simply the recognition of the evil around us.

And, a pretty decent explanation of what a lot of us are feeling, and finding hard to deal with.

Remember, Prayer can change everything if it is God’s Will.

Grannie Gloria

[52] Posted by Grandmother on 09-13-2008 at 03:56 PM • top

Mugsie1,
I too see evidence that we are in the end times, and take Biblical prophecy seriously. I don’t doubt your sincerity in looking for God’s guidence in current circumstances. But I would be reluctant to believe that a particular set of contemporary events are signal that the end is upon us. You should read some of the impressive analysis that once tied the rise of Nazi Germany to the end times and identified Hitler as the anti-Christ. Almost every Pope has been called the anti-Christ by their enemies.  On the other hand, many Roman Catholics believed that the anti-Christ would be a son of Martin Luther. Turn on the TV, and you can still find a televangelist speculating that King Juan Carlos is the one.  If anyone has ever had grounds for a slander suit, it’s Carlos!). 

I will remain a Protestant, but in this time of moral relativism and spiritual decline by mainline denominations, I am very grateful for the Roman Catholic Church and its Catechism.

The spiritual warfare facing each of us is clear enough without reaching for conclusions that are not supported by Scripture.

[53] Posted by Going Home on 09-13-2008 at 04:07 PM • top

I think a “Fr. Wes”, asked a question about who was on the “lawyer committee”.....
It can be found at “LENT and BEYOND”, Jill Woodriff’s site listed above.

Here is what she posted:

Bless your enemies
September 13, 2008

The lawyer-bishops in the House of Bishops have recommended that the HoB depose Bishop Robert Duncan. The members of the task force are Bishops Jon Bruno, Mark Hollingsworth, William Persell, Stacy Sauls, and Dean Wolfe. Bishops Marc Andrus, Philip Duncan, and James Mathes participated in the discussions of the Task force. Bishop Sauls is the chair.

Our Father in heaven,
We bring to you in prayer David Booth Beers and his law firm, Presiding Bishop Schori and her staff, and Bishops Bruno, Hollingsworth, Persell, Sauls, D. Wolfe, Andrus, P. Duncan, and Mathes. In simple trust we commit them into your hands. We thank you that you love them more than we do and understand their every need. Do for them, O Lord, what we cannot do, and what you see is most for their good; for Jesus’ sake. Amen.

From: Lent & Beyond.

[54] Posted by Grandmother on 09-13-2008 at 04:10 PM • top

My prayers are with Bishop Duncan and all those who labor in the vineyard. 

I am curious as to whether the comments of Mugsie will be allowed to stay since they serve no purpose but to display anti Catholic lies which are better suited for a Chick tract than this worthy setting.

[55] Posted by Paula Loughlin on 09-13-2008 at 04:11 PM • top

some may object to my saying this, but after reading this memo, I firmly believe the wrong people are in Galveston.

[56] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-13-2008 at 04:13 PM • top

perhaps I should clarify - this woman needs to experience the full wrath of God more than anyone I know.  She is reprehensible.  I know atheists with far more compassion and far less evilness.

[57] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-13-2008 at 04:16 PM • top

#3, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking!!

[58] Posted by Sarah H on 09-13-2008 at 04:16 PM • top

Please remember that it was members of the diocese, led especially by one parish in the diocese, which presented the charges; they initiated them, not the PB.  She could have chosen not to act, I think, but the initiative was not hers.

[59] Posted by celindascott on 09-13-2008 at 04:23 PM • top

She needs to get +Duncan in the crosshairs of her scope and pull the trigger, before he can take DioPitt out of TEC.

You all don’t get it…We love +Bob in Pittsburgh, but he’s not the reason we want to re-align…Shori and her predecessors are for their undefined religion.  Even if +Bob is not in charge of convention we will still vote, and I pray succeed, to realign!

[60] Posted by dog-ma on 09-13-2008 at 04:32 PM • top

What an honor for Bishop Duncan to be persecuted for standing for the Truth of God’s Word and for defending His Church from the marauders currently in power in TEC!

It would be a true disgrace to be complicit with KJS and TEC in all of this.

Right now, though, I’m so mad I could spit. Rather than boil over with anger, hatred and evil myself… I am going to use the powerful prayers just posted over at Lent and Beyond.

May the Lord defend His Church and His Name.

Now unto Him that is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto Him (alone) be glory in the (His) Church by Christ Jesus throughout all the ages, world without end. Amen
Ephesians 3:20-21

[61] Posted by Floridian on 09-13-2008 at 04:36 PM • top

Dog-ma, #60:
When she deposes +Duncan, she will appoint an interim bishop who will not allow your convention vote to leave TEC.

[62] Posted by old lady on 09-13-2008 at 04:47 PM • top

The legal situation in addition to the links to Curmudgeon’s posts at #8 Hanks above was originally and succinctly put by Chancellor here which appears to be the point that the PB is trying unsuccessfully to work her way around.

So:
1.  She did not get the votes of the 3 senior bishops to inhibit or proceed to a vote to depose;
2.  She does has not secured the paperwork to bring the deposition matter to the HOB for decision; and
3.  She does not have [and does not intend to make any attempt to get] the required canonical majority to pass the deposition under Canon Title IV 9(1).

I think we now understand your ‘polity’.

You make it up as you go along.

[63] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 09-13-2008 at 04:56 PM • top

Mugsie,
I am tempted to ask what church you are in, since I think we can eliminate any variant of Catholicism or Anglicanism just based on your post.
While I appreciate your prayers, there have been many attempts to save me from Anglo Catholicism in the past, and I suspect that your attempt will also fail.  Although, at the current rate, the ABoC may just convince me to give up on the “Anglo” part.

[64] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 04:57 PM • top

Pageantmaster,
I believe you understand TEC’s (I need to get out of the habit of saying “our”) polity perfectly.

[65] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 04:59 PM • top

Oh and digging up two prior depositions which she says were also un-canonical [as originally mentioned by ‘Mark Harris’ - who is Mark Harris by the way?] sounds like an argument that ‘we got away with it before and we reckon we can get away with it again’.

Guess whether Mr Beers was Chancellor to the PB at the time!

[66] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 09-13-2008 at 05:04 PM • top

Please remember that it was members of the diocese, led especially by one parish in the diocese, which presented the charges; they initiated them, not the PB.  She could have chosen not to act, I think, but the initiative was not hers.

Celinda,
While indeed the PB does say that in her letter, it is a patent lie.  A few disaffected people did bring canonical charges against +Bob Duncan, but parishioners, or even clergy, are in no position to bring a charge of abandonment of communion.  They are not trying him on charges related to any perceived misconduct within the diocese.  In fact, they are not trying him at all.  He has been “star chambered” based on the opinion of some of his colleages in the HoB.  If a dozen parishioners and clergy could bring such charges, every bishop in the HoB would be charged tomorrow with abandoning the communion of the Church.  In the case of at least 50 of them, it is obvious.

[67] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 05:07 PM • top

Schori said, “In these circumstances, I concur with my Chancellor and the Parliamentarian that any ambiguity in the canon should be resolved in favor of making this important provision work effectively and that the discipline of the Church should not be stymied because a majority or nearly a majority of voting bishops are no longer in active episcopal positions in the Church and their attendance at meetings is hampered by age, health, economics, or interest in other legitimate pursuits.”

Im other words, who cares what the Bishops say. We’re going to depose Duncan because we hate him and what he stands for… The uncompromised Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[68] Posted by Alice Linsley on 09-13-2008 at 05:08 PM • top

Old Lady, whatever temporary bishop Mrs Schori imposes upon the diocese will have no say as to whether or not the delegates vote to leave TEC, since it is THEY who will make that decision….not the bishop!  A bishop doesn’t RULE a diocese….he is merely its Chief Pastor. 

The people WILL leave….or at least the MAJORITY of them will, and Bishop Duncan will lead them.  Whoever that bishop is will have a tough time finding people to sit in the pews….IF he can keep the churches open!  Any way you look at the situation, TEC is in VERY deep trouble.  It’s already too late to reform them, because the die has been cast, and there will be no turning back.

[69] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 05:28 PM • top

And Alice, I agree with you 100%!

[70] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 05:35 PM • top

Cennydd,
Can’t the bishop (1) get the committee to vote to refer for further study or 2) rule it out of order?

[71] Posted by JackieB on 09-13-2008 at 05:42 PM • top

Pageantmaster (#63) thanks for adding the link to Chancellor’s summary of the illegal manner in which the ++Schofield and ++Cox depositions were rammed through the HOB.

Dean Munday put together an excellent summary that pulls together and has links to some of best writing done by Stand Firm folks following the ++Schofield and ++Cox depositions. 

Take a look.  It’s well worth your time if you want to understand just how evil and heartless TEC and 815 have become.

The outrageous gall of Der Fuehrer Schori in putting this memo out just astounds me.  It violates every sense of fairness, due process, and integrity.  If she can’t comply with her own rules, this is nothing less than anarchy.

[72] Posted by hanks on 09-13-2008 at 05:45 PM • top

Jackie, I’m no canon lawyer, so I’d have to refer you to another person on this blog who IS.  As far as I’M concerned, ruling it out of order or voting to refer it for further study at a later date would accomplish nothing.  But of course, I’m not resident in that diocese. 

How about it, Anglican Curmudgeon?  What do YOU say?

[73] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 05:54 PM • top

#72 Hanks
Thankyou for that link to Dean Munday’s post.  I was turning over what was missing from this letter compared to others and it seems to that she has given up all that touchy-feely guff about only following the leading of the Holy Spirit in this matter.

I have to say, abandoning so much canonical procedure to try to railroad this through has an air of panic.  Can it be that she fears that the Narnian snows have begun to melt?

I wonder if the HOB will follow blindly like Bozos again?

[74] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 09-13-2008 at 05:55 PM • top

Hanks, it amounts to dictatorship!

[75] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 05:55 PM • top

Wait - this diocese has a fully constituted standing committee.  Unless she makes up new rules and oust them from their duly elected positions - as she did in SJ - she will be unable to appoint a second puppet minion to do her biding.  I pray that every delegate of every parish will stand firm.

[76] Posted by Jackie on 09-13-2008 at 06:01 PM • top

Well, no shock, no surprise here. We knew as +Duncan did the nature of the opposition, and being a fairly canny individual, the nature of his response. Schori and company tipped their hand in California, so no surprises at this stage of the game. Just the sense of rising panic/paranoia that they can’t act fast enough to get things sorted. Or else a sense of inevitable purpose. I read a description out of one of C.S. Lewis’ personal letters about an individual he described (paraphrased here) as “beyond evil, someone who is so dedicated to their personal ideals that any act or atrocity no matter small or large is immediately justified.”  We have discussed this, prayed on this and predicted this (against all hope). The progressives constantly show their true colors when given power - they are immediately corrupted by it, and show the immediate vice of being bullies and heavy-handed autocrats. They expect and plan for the orthodox to “play fair” as we are called to do, and try to bend that to their advantage as well. No lie is too brazen no twist of fact too obvious, no sin too great to ignore. However we should be thankful - no lives yet are on the line. Just policy, property and the privilege to suffer for the Gospel. May we be considered faithful and true in the day when our lives are offered us against our faith.

[77] Posted by masternav on 09-13-2008 at 06:04 PM • top

Unless she makes up new rules and oust them from their duly elected positions - as she did in SJ - she will be unable to appoint a second puppet minion to do her biding.

Jackie, are you suggesting that after she illegally deposes her 3rd bishop in 3 tries that she will NOT do as she did in SJ and illegally impose an unelected standing committee?  WHY would she not do this, when no one within TEC opposed her last time?

[78] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 06:13 PM • top

Good point, TJ.  Foolish of me really.

[79] Posted by Jackie on 09-13-2008 at 06:20 PM • top

TJ #38, please help me out here. It seems to me that TEC is being thrust into an accelerated freefall all told and disintegrating far more quickly than 7 years out; hence, it would seem the numbers would be falling faster than your projected timeline. You may have access to inside information or know some special formula or something. I guess I don’t quite follow your reasoning:

It will keep on like this for another 7 years. The 7 year time period not being governed by the PB’s remaining term, but by the number of years left in which TEC can expect to have a total membership of greater than 1/2 million.

Thanks for “clueing me in” and may our Lord bless you mightily and give you peace as you grapple with all the implications (as you know we also are contending for the faith here in WMI and with much evidence of God’s hand on our direction.)
YSIC, Merlena C

[80] Posted by merlenacushing on 09-13-2008 at 06:27 PM • top

You know the truly sad thing?  the ABC could stop this with a telephone call.  All he has to do is tell ‘katy” he withdraws ALL support for her and her ilk. 

He may not have much power, BUT, there is the power of the press, and media, he could make mincemeat out of all of them, and if he was any kind of man, he would since they have made a complete fool of him..If he had any guts, he’d take charge of the faithful, and then let her charge ANYONE with ‘abandonment of communion” and see how far she’d get..

So there,

Grannie Gloria

[81] Posted by Grandmother on 09-13-2008 at 06:31 PM • top

Grannie (#81),
Yes, if the ABC had a spritual conviction to help. But this battle is between franchisees who will “report” to Canterbury either way.

[82] Posted by AngloTex on 09-13-2008 at 06:51 PM • top

I’d suggest taking emergency action in order to forestall any action Schori might take, but I would refrain from making any specific suggestions as to what the diocese should do in order to avoid “telegraphing” their intentions to the wrong people.

[83] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 06:54 PM • top

#31 Martial Artist
If I may be a little personal, I cannot describe the distress and pain of reading of faithful Anglicans like you contemplating joining those streaming out of TEC to other churches or no church at all. This is the reality which gets lost in all the squeals of polity and politics in the Communion.

I hope you are happy wherever God leads you.

[84] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 09-13-2008 at 06:58 PM • top

Merlena,
As you know, I am something of a statistics junkie.  Right now, I put TEC in the neighborhood of 1.8 million members.  5% of TECers that I actively keep up with have become RC in the last year, another 10% have left for other Anglican jurisdictions and a couple are LCMS.  If my own personal experience is indicative, TEC may have lost 15% or more of its membership in the last year, although I doubt it is quite that high (since most of the people I know well in TEC are orthodox- and therefore more likely to leave).
Still, if TEC declines have accelerated into double digits, and if TEC’s real membership has been inflated as appears to be the case, it will take 5-7 years for it to drop to 1/2 or less than 1/2 of what it is now.
  The problem faced by any organization that requires minimum numbers to keep its doors open locally is that its membership decline accelerates rapidly once it is forced to close its marginal locations.  Right now, in N. Michigan, there are several congregations under 10 or 15 persons- members, not ASA- being kept open by volunteer clergy.  But with volunteers or otherwise, every church in the country needs a minimum number of dollars flowing in to keep the doors open.  So once the number of parishioners drops below the number necessary to provide those dollars, the local church is in trouble.  TEC has almost as many congregations as 30 years ago, with 1/2 the membership.  So there are many, many churches, indeed whole dioceses, that will be severely strained by the loss of even 5% of their parishioners- something that may happen in a matter or WEEKS from now- how many of us on this site, for example, will follow +Duncan, +Iker, and +Ackerman?  Some will exit TEC with their parishes, but I suspect that many of us will depart parishes that are electing to stay in TEC (or indeed leading the charge for TEC).  When that happens, many of those marginal parishes, especially in small towns and rural areas, will be in great distress.
And over the next few years, many will close.
In those small towns, most people will go to another local (non Anglican) church with their neighbors, rather than drive 25 miles or more to the closest TEC church- even if they are supporters of the innovations.
When a church closes in a small town, TEC may lose 75% or more of that congregation, not just the 5-20% who left on theological grounds.
  As you know, 2 years ago, W Mich was forced to sell its cathedral in order to keep its more marginal parishes open.  Here in N. Michigan, they rely on volunteer clergy to keep 3/4 of the churches open.  I don’t think weak parishes are unusual in TEC.  One of these years soon, we will find them closing 500 churches, the following year, more, then more again the following year- until they get down to their “faithful” stalwarts who believe their new gospel.

[85] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 07:02 PM • top

As Grannie and JH Graves point out above, and others have alluded to, the ABoC could end this farce tomorrow morning by adding the following sentence to his sermon:
“Robert Duncan is the Anglican Bishop of Pittsburgh and is in full Communion with the See of Canterbury.”
And then, of course, repeat the sentence in his sermon next week.
Too bad, really, isn’t it, that something on the order of a quarter million people may leave the Anglican Communion because he won’t do that?  Not to mention the potential schism with the 50 million other orthodox Anglicans who will no longer tolerate being led about by TEC’s latest whim.

[86] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 07:15 PM • top

[84] Pageantmaster,

Thank you for your kind and loving words. It is sad, but at the same time it is a bit like realizing that I have been on a long journey and had somehow slightly mistaken the final destination. So, from my perspective, it feels more like the tour guide (the Holy Spirit) has finally revealed the actual destination.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

P.S. I have also sent you a separate email with more details, in response to the one you sent me.

[87] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 09-13-2008 at 07:40 PM • top

Thanks for elaborating on your observations, TJ (#85) I can see now how you have arrived at the conjecture and it does make sense. Nevertheless, I think the Titanic is sinking more quickly than many are willing to believe - just have a sense about that. Not very scientific, I know and I’m not a numbers person, so you may be much closer than I in your projections. Some of us see a TRUE revival coming and believe it will begin to manifest soon. Most seem to think that TEC is too far gone and would not allow renewal, but God is God. In any case, the new Province will surely benefit in numbers and strength.

[88] Posted by merlenacushing on 09-13-2008 at 07:42 PM • top

67 TJMMcMahon, I don’t remember what the PB said in her letter, but I have seen the letter members of the Diocese of Pittsburgh wrote issuing the complaint, and their signatures. They definitely took the initiative; no way of getting around that, and were probably poising to do so well before the present PB was elected in 2006.  This is a step in a long battle which the PB did not initiate.  She is a player in it.

[89] Posted by celindascott on 09-13-2008 at 07:45 PM • top

As to the ABC supporting orthodox dioceses or bishops; don’t hold your breath.  TEC still controls the purse strings. 

The HOB allowed her squidness to depose bishops Schofield and Cox without a whimper.  I am sure they will be equally supportive of +Duncan.  I wonder why she isn’t going after +Iker just yet.  It seems like it would be easier to get two at a time than to do them individually. 

When are the bishops of TEC going to show some courage (I am thinking cajones) and put her in her place?  She has caused more damage in three short years than any previous PB during his whole term.  Somebody needs to stand up and say. “Enough is enough!  Our canons have some meaning and will be obeyed.”  The few bishops with spines left are in the process of leaving TEC.  Four of my grandchildren were confirmed this year.  What kind of church will they inherit when they are adults?  I feel for them.

[90] Posted by terrafirma on 09-13-2008 at 07:50 PM • top

Even if a Windsor bishop in the HOB questions the necessary majority to depose Bishop Bob, the PB will ask the parliamentarian for a ruling, and if that ruling is challenged, she can then ask for a vote of the body, and I predict the HOB will support the PB.  And that will be that. I cannot imagine that a civil court would look behind the HOB decision.  So I appreciate the lengthy commentary on the issue, but I doubt it does more than get us all in high dudgeon.

And a church trial might be fun, but there is no defense to the claim that Bishop Bob wants to leave TEC— the real issue is whether leaving TEC is an abandonment of the communion of the church.  But is there any real fact issue here that requires a trial?  I cannot imagine a trial would be all that helpful, and its outcome pre-ordained.  Moreover, if the DioPitt had already left TEC, then Bishop Bob would not recognize the jurisdiction of the trial court, and presumably not attend.

But I would amazed if the PB moved against the standing committee before the separation vote of the diocese.  After the diocese separates, she will act as she did with the DioSJ.  She will have a hornet’s nest on her hands if she unilaterally moves against the standing committee before the diocesan convention.

And our prayers are with Bishop Bob, his family and the diocese.

[91] Posted by Dick Mitchell on 09-13-2008 at 07:52 PM • top

TJ, above (#38) you suggested that the PB and 815 might move against non-Common Cause, conservative bishops such as Lawrence (SC) and McPherson (WLa).  My take on the current situation is that 815 is holding itself out to the Anglican Communion and the great muddling middle that is still in the Communion, in saying: “We are moving only against the secessionists, not the conservatives; conservatives and traditionalists are always welcome.  The only true heresy is schism.”  And I continue to assume that 815 will draw a distinction between Duncan and Iker on the one hand, and Lawrence and McPherson on the other hand. 

What could 815 charge Lawrence or McPherson with?  Attending Gafcon?  Speaking at the Mere Anglicanism conference?  Failure to ordain gay clergy?

[92] Posted by Dick Mitchell on 09-13-2008 at 08:07 PM • top

Hey Bishop Stanton - time to stand up and be counted!

[93] Posted by B. Hunter on 09-13-2008 at 08:09 PM • top

I wonder if this memo of understanding could backfire if the HoB agrees with her reading and application of the canons. 

What’s to say that the institutional liberals won’t back a presentment filed from someone else, followed up with a hallway meeting of the Title IV Review Committee agreeing to the charges, the three senior bishops concurring, and an immediate HoB vote when the meeting resumes? If the process can be redacted as she has described it, it could easily be telescoped by the same reasoning.

Under her and the Chancellor’s reading no one in the HoB can truly claim to be safe from a charge that would depose them because majorities would now be defined as whoever comes to a certain meeting.  Such an atmosphere might lead some forward thinking bishops to attempt to restore safety and stability.

This might give some of the more institutionally-minded (or communion-minded) bishops the opportunity to call a halt to the chaos and appeal to the global communion that TEC is attempting to bring order to their disordered relationships in the communion.

[94] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 09-13-2008 at 08:11 PM • top

Wow. I just can;t believe the disconnect from reality on this site. JKS evil? You guys need to cut down on the magic mushrooms or something.

The rulings are reasonable interpretations of the canons and well within her power as Presiding Bishop.

[95] Posted by ruidh on 09-13-2008 at 08:21 PM • top

Will the last orthodox Anglican priest to leave please ensure that the Blessed Sacrament is reverently consumed and the Lamp extinguished? 

Oh, and has anyone asked the PB just how she’s going to pay the mortgage, heat, light, and the myriad other bills for all the soon-to-be-emptied buildings she insists she owns?  I mean, given 815’s legal fees, it’s hard to imagine how they’ll pay for anything else…

[96] Posted by Conego on 09-13-2008 at 08:22 PM • top

#95
That’s it isn’t it?  “within her power”!  The key to having power is knowing when and where to excercise it.  For someone who is incredibly “pastoral” and “compassionate” KJS really is quite good at excercising power without constraint.  What I find disturbing is the level of hubris and the total lack of humility within TEC’s leadersip.
I don’t think she is evil, merely misguided, and frankly wrong.  Better yet, a sinner, such as I that needs to repent and return to Christ.

[97] Posted by Eastern Anglican on 09-13-2008 at 08:29 PM • top

For those who plan to join in praying for orthodox bishops in the days ahead and for courage for them to take a stand, my latest post at L&B; tonight may be helpful. 

The post includes a list of Windsor & Common Cause bishops (diocesans only) remaining in TEC, as well as several Scripture verses I find shaping my prayers tonight.  Here is that portion of the post:

Here is a list of the bishops, for whom I am praying for by name. (Note this list includes both the Windsor Bishops committed to working within TEC, as well as several bishops who have already taken a stand for realignment and support the Common Cause movement’s “outside” strategy)

+Robert Duncan, Pittsburgh (of course!)
+Keith Ackerman, Quincy
+James Adams, W. Kansas
+John Bauerschmidt, Tennessee
+Peter Beckwith, Springfield
+John Howe, Central Florida
+Russell Jacobus, Fond Du Lac
+Mark Lawrence, South Carolina
+Gary Lillibridge, West Texas
+Ed Little, Northern Indiana
+Bill Love, Albany
+Bruce MacPherson, Western Louisiana
+Michael Smith, North Dakota
+Jim Stanton, Dallas
+Don A. Wimberly, Texas
+Geralyn Wolf, Rhode Island

And here are three Scripture passages which I find shaping my prayers:

Prov 4:18-19

But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn,
That shines brighter and brighter until the full day.
The way of the wicked is like darkness;
They do not know over what they stumble.

Matt. 5:13-16

“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Eph 5:8-17

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
“Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.” Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

[98] Posted by Karen B. on 09-13-2008 at 08:43 PM • top

ruidh,

I don’t think the PB is “evil,” neither have I been consuming “magic mushrooms.”

I am an informal student of human relationships and recognize that new arguments/thinking tend to get applied in directions never intended by those who originated the new concept; sometimes to their chagrin.

I also understand that even if the rulings and interpretations are within her brief as the PB, they are nevertheless novel and innovative.  I come to that conclusion based on the detailed history of the canons involved as seen on the Anglican Curmudgeon’s website, among others.

Thus, given human relationships’ tendency toward social Darwinism, I can see how the new ruling could come back in ways that haven’t been foreseen by the PB or her advisors.

[99] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 09-13-2008 at 08:45 PM • top

Leaving TEC is NOT abandonment of the communion of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but it IS abandonment of The Episcopal Church….and there is quite a difference between the two these days.

[100] Posted by Cennydd on 09-13-2008 at 09:07 PM • top

Dick (#92) (the following being my humble opinion)
As to the potential fate of Bishops like +McPherson and +Lawrence, have a look at the title IV revisions that will be voted in at GC09.  My personal prediction is that within 2 years, anyone who does not break Communion with ++Greg Venables will be subject to presentment, but granted, that is a prediction based more on my gut than anything I can point to in the current fiasco.
Then, of course, IF (and it is a big IF) the Covenant is acceptable to the Global South (or, for that matter, to me and probably you) it will by definition not be acceptable to TEC.  Do you expect that Bishops who sign the Covenant and submit themselves thereby to a higher authority than GC will not be disciplined?
Few of us would have predicted even 2 years ago that things would have deteriorated so quickly as they have. Given the acceleration of the implosion of TEC, I see no reason now to predict that it will slow down.  Someone who has no fear of God is not bothered much by a little negative PR.

[101] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 09:11 PM • top

Karen B.
You won’t mind, will you, if we add +Jack Iker to your list?

[102] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-13-2008 at 09:14 PM • top

Can somebody clue me in on one detail here?  Jadis said something in her “we’re having a railroad party” memo that sounded like she is running out of duly consecrated bishops to make up a quorum.  Have that many bishes joined the “small group of the disgruntled” already?  (Too bad a quorum can’t be called to recall her election!)  +MM for PB, whatcha say?

[103] Posted by Robert Easter on 09-13-2008 at 09:51 PM • top

Cennydd (#73), have you checked the Curmudgeon’s blog lately? There is a new post in which I would say he fairly obliterates +Schori’s memo and reasoning.  Plus, in his exasperation with her conduct, he has adopted a new moniker for her which bears considering: he now calls her “the Chief Kaitiff of The Episcopal Church”  (presumably derived from “Kate” plus “caitiff”).

[104] Posted by Chancellor on 09-13-2008 at 09:56 PM • top

TJ - indeed pray for +Iker too!  My bad.  Originally I only intended to post the Windsor / Communion Partners bishops.  Then I added in Common Cause bishops, and obviously forgot +JLI.  But I assure you, “I like +Iker” too!  And yes, I’m praying for him.

K.

[105] Posted by Karen B. on 09-13-2008 at 10:04 PM • top

Now would be a good time for all to reread this suggestion that appears below the posting box.
I don’t see a lot of love going on for those who would persecute you (or someone you support)
_______________________________________________________
Before you post, please remember Matthew 5:43-45:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.”

[106] Posted by msmcdoc on 09-13-2008 at 10:06 PM • top

The Office of the Presiding Bishop is sede vacante.

[107] Posted by Nikolaus on 09-13-2008 at 10:17 PM • top

Msmcdoc, we do need to pray for the woman.  She is in the most un-enviable position I can imagine.  At the same time, she is caricaturing herself like a Narnian villainess, and like such I believe her downfall is coming sooner, and more suddenly, than she imagines.

[108] Posted by Robert Easter on 09-13-2008 at 10:19 PM • top

Again, could somebody who knows tell me, and whoever else might be curious, why the Mrs. Schori is running out of bishops?  Have that many found the door?  Has she deposed that many?  Did they get tired of her parties?  Seriously- does anybody know?

[109] Posted by Robert Easter on 09-13-2008 at 10:45 PM • top

62 is right. Schori’s appointed replacement will immediately be at war with the Diocese, and will likely prevent a vote, at least one that is held in a normal fashion in the convention. The vote will then have to be taken in some fashion seperately.

Stanton and the other committed “inside” Bishops could still make a difference here, but I don’t expect it.

[110] Posted by Going Home on 09-13-2008 at 10:51 PM • top

To Jesus’ faithful church in North America. As I read all of your comments I cant help but imagine what it would be like if my local Anglican church, to which I belong and love, was in such terrible circumstances with much of the national leadership. All the families, including my own, who are faithful to Gods word, love one another and build eachother up to maturity in Christ….. what a hurtful and terrible situation to be in to be attacked by your own leadership in such a dreadful way.
Please know that faithful Anglicans around the world are praying for you and watching with much sadness the situation in the TEC. Love those who persecute you, you are being glorified in your faithfulness by those who are apposing your love for Jesus and His Word. Please pray also for GAFCON.
God bless you,
A brother in Sydney, Australia.

[111] Posted by OHOWY on 09-14-2008 at 12:05 AM • top

[95] ruidh,

As to your comment that her

rulings are reasonable interpretations of the canons …

they are just as reasonable as my interpretation of her rulings being the result of an acute mineral deficiency, namely the minerals Plumbum and Cuprum.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[112] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 09-14-2008 at 12:18 AM • top

In these circumstances, I concur with my Chancellor and the Parliamentarian that any ambiguity in the canon should be resolved in favor of making this important provision work effectively and that the discipline of the Church should not be stymied because a majority or nearly a majority of voting bishops are no longer in active episcopal positions in the Church and their attendance at meetings is hampered by age, health, economics, or interest in other legitimate pursuits.

In these circumstances, I concur with my Attorney General and chief of our State Police that any ambiguity in the capital murder statute should be resolved in favor of making this important provision work effectively and that the capital punishment called for by the statute should not be stymied because the state can’t prove every little element required under the law.

My jaw dropped when I read this comment from KJS.  In one stroke of the pen, she has completely removed any credibility TEC has in speaking against injustice.  Ambiguities in the law ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS are resolved in the defendants favor in ANY civilized liberal democratic nation.  That this is NOT the rule in TEC speaks volumes.

[113] Posted by jamesw on 09-14-2008 at 01:29 AM • top

Now, as Polycarp was entering into the stadium, there came to him a voice from heaven, saying, Be strong, and show yourself a man, O Polycarp! No one saw who it was that spoke to him; but those of our brethren who were present heard the voice. And as he was brought forward, the tumult became great when they heard that Polycarp was taken. And when he came near, the proconsul asked him whether he was Polycarp. On his confessing that he was, the proconsul sought to persuade him to deny Christ, saying, Have respect to your old age, and other similar things, according to their custom, such as, Swear by the fortune of Cæsar; repent, and say, Away with the Atheists. But Polycarp, gazing with a stern countenance on all the multitude of the wicked heathen then in the stadium, and waving his hand towards them, while with groans he looked up to heaven, said, Away with the Atheists. Then, the proconsul urging him, and saying, Swear, and I will set you at liberty, reproach Christ; Polycarp declared, Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me any injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?

[114] Posted by Adam 12 on 09-14-2008 at 05:08 AM • top

I think Mme. Schori and her henchmen are grossly underestimating the power and the conviction of the people of the Diocese of Pittsburgh.
John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

We know the voice of our master, and will not follow a stranger.  Very little that comes out of 815 resembles the Master’s voice.
Please continue to pray for us in Pittsburgh, and know that 815’s tactic of burned villages and salted fields will bring them no joy.
 
Psalm 146:8
the LORD gives sight to the blind, the LORD lifts up those who are bowed down, the LORD loves the righteous.

[115] Posted by GillianC on 09-14-2008 at 07:14 AM • top

Deposed by SATAN.  The highest honor one could achieve.  BRING IT ON Biotch.

[116] Posted by midwestnorwegian on 09-14-2008 at 08:03 AM • top

Thomas Becket’s Memo to Persons Who Seize Upon the Person of a Priest and Commit Sacrilege:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y75OwTuQpqI

[117] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-14-2008 at 10:47 AM • top

Karen B, 

I would add Proverbs 4:20-27 as an admonition for all the bishops this week.

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their .....conscience…and to stand up and be counted…to reveal their convictions.  If Baal be your god - fine, continue in the current path to disease, desolation and death. 
If you are convinced that God and His word are Truth, that Love and Life are supposed to be Holy and you want Him over you and His Church, then stand up and be counted…for Christ’s sake.

The example of the last 5 years in TEC is a huge putrid stench that rises to Heaven.

[118] Posted by Floridian on 09-14-2008 at 11:21 AM • top

The true Episcopal way of dealing with this issue is to “table the motion and refer it to committee for report”.

[119] Posted by ctowles on 09-14-2008 at 11:22 AM • top

to “table the motion and refer it to committee for report” = Anglican Indaba

[120] Posted by ctowles on 09-14-2008 at 11:25 AM • top

I deeply appreciate the prayers for PB Schori and other members of the HoB.  Some prayers can be found at Lent & Beyond.
In an effort to reflect on TEC as a whole, I think it worthwhile to now ask, “What holds the institution together?”  Because of innovative interpretations of the canons and constitution, they no longer act as a unifying force.  The same can be said of Holy Scripture and the formularies.  The do-it-yourself approach to liturgy has eroded that as a unifying force.  As a result of all the above, mistrust reigns.
What does hold the institution together?  fear of the unknown?  the church pension fund?  a concern for the poor?  Hopefully, I have omitted some things, because none of these answers, in and of themselves, are a distinctive mark of the church.  I welcome your thoughts.

[121] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 09-14-2008 at 01:38 PM • top

Amen #107!  It is truly vacant and has been for some time.  When the Canons of the Church and Rules of the House don’t agree with her, she changes their meaning.  Such as the HOB rule that follows:
“The House of Bishops rules also require 30 days notice. Rule XIX states, “except by a two-thirds vote of those present and voting, no member of the House may introduce a Resolution at a special meeting unless the Resolution has been circulated thirty days in advance to the members.”

And she wonders why she doesn’t get respect?  Yeah, right.

[122] Posted by Dallas Priest on 09-14-2008 at 01:43 PM • top

#103 Robert Easter, ordinarily only sitting diocesan bishops attend the HoB meetings.  Their travel expenses would be covered by the diocese.  Retired bishops usually don’t attend.  There are so many retired bishops, it would be difficult to have a quorum of the entire HoB at an ordinary meeting.

[123] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 09-14-2008 at 01:55 PM • top

#122, Religious Intelligence has an interesting article by George Conger on the issue of the illegality of the KJS changing the HOB agenda during the 30 days prior to the HOB meeting.

One more cowardly thrust of a dagger into the heart of fairness and due process.

[124] Posted by hanks on 09-14-2008 at 02:14 PM • top

Good question, Jill, and thanks for your prayers.  What “holds the institution together” in my parish is the sense that we are part of the body of Christ, and that we “lift high the cross.”  Although some of us are “liberal,” some “conservative,” and some “middle of the road,” we all worship together, some of us pray together in small groups in addition to the worship services, some of us study together, and most of us do “corporal works of mercy” (a command of Christ) together.  (That’s for starters).

[125] Posted by celindascott on 09-14-2008 at 03:06 PM • top

Does this mean that the Bishops who attend the forthcoming business meeting of the House of Bishops in Salt Lake City can, with the help of those Bishops who do not attend, elevate the position of the Presiding Bishop to a position higher than the individual Bishop of a Diocese and to the top of the Hierarchal ladder?

[126] Posted by Betty See on 09-14-2008 at 03:39 PM • top

Celinda, I don’t doubt that is the case for your parish.  However, when I survey the entire Episcopal Church, I witness theology and liturgy that does not “lift high the cross” among some of its most prominent leaders.

[127] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 09-14-2008 at 03:45 PM • top

Thanks, Jill!

You and George are a great blessing!
One thing that the folks that Greg calls “our worthy opponents,” from their “religious” viewpoint is that these folks that simply love Jesus just aren’t like them.  They’ll assume that we’re the same kind of creatures as themselves, so they wrap their poster child in body armor, convinced that their “consecration” service is surrounded by Evangelical mad bombers and Prayer Book snipers, but all the Evangelicals and Prayer Book-ers were back home praying for them!
Jill, we’ve just met one time, and I gives me such grins to think that besides being a co-belligerent and a great asset to this cause, you and George are my brother and sister in Jesus, and His Blood is thicker!

[128] Posted by Robert Easter on 09-14-2008 at 04:25 PM • top

126 Betty, they did that several years ago, and more recently, they confirmed her as the Episcopal Queen of Mean.

[129] Posted by Cennydd on 09-14-2008 at 05:01 PM • top

Simply amazing !  There is TEC’s coffin,  there are the nails.  Who is that doing the pounding???  My word, it is the PB !

Does she not realize that with every resound of the hammer, another dioceses, parish, or soul resolves to flee?

[130] Posted by CanaAnglican on 09-14-2008 at 06:02 PM • top

I hope the HofB rejects the perfunctory extra-canonical attempt to dispense with Bishop Duncan without a trial.
815 is wrong, as well, on the method of counting votes necessary to prevail on the abandonment charge.

[131] Posted by Sparky on 09-14-2008 at 06:22 PM • top

No.11 & No.47 - “beyond the PAIL.”  The word you want is PALE, meaning beyond the bounds of courtesy or propriety, as in Greg Griffith’s egregious opening remark, “Plucked like rotting fruit.”
No.63 & No.65 - POLITY is not the same word as POLICY.
Look it up.
No.33 - Your remarks are generally accurate; Bishops duncan, Iker, et.al. were creating waves long before Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori was elected. She is remarkably brave to have accepted the position, knowing that she would be reviled by many for having had the audacity to serve in a job reserved in the past
for men and for being supportive of an equal place in the church of gay people who have been subjected to unending discrimination and calumny due to their sexual orientation. People who object to such an enlightened policy have spent too much time in Sunday School and not enough in the classroom.
Signs and posters now appear in the UK saying: SOME PEOPLE ARE GAY, GET OVER IT.

[132] Posted by St. James on 09-14-2008 at 06:44 PM • top

Folks - there is only one way to defeat this plan. Call you Bishop in TEC and ask that they use Indaba at the next HOB. I would suggest they bring in professionals that can work with the groups to plan proper Bible studies. Even Gene can participate in this one. We all know that Indaba produces a status quo. If applied here, it leaves everyone with no action on +Duncan. wink

[133] Posted by Festivus on 09-14-2008 at 07:10 PM • top

Hey, St James, I really like those posters you mentioned.

I agree that it’s about time that the gays get over it.

REPENT!

smile

[134] Posted by hanks on 09-14-2008 at 07:15 PM • top

If these bishops had even a SHRED of common decency, they’d see right through this woman’s plot to theologically cleanse the social club called The Episcopal Church and tell her “No dice, Katharine!”  Personally, I don’t hold out much hope that they will.

[135] Posted by Cennydd on 09-14-2008 at 07:20 PM • top

#121 Jill, it’s a fascinating question you ask:  What is it that holds the remains of TEC together?

As I think back on my 20 years within TEC, that ended only a few months ago, by Spring of 2008, the only thing that I had in common with 815 and the leadership of TEC was an argument, of which we were on very opposite and unreconcilable sides.  That argument, in its most simple form went something like this:

815:  Dude, Behaviourly, Anything Goes!
Me:  Nope, you’ve got no evidence to back that up.
815:  Well, then, you at LEAST have to do what we tell you, i.e. we get to say what Anything’s actually go!
Me:  See ya!

Sorry, but that’s about what it boiled down to.

KTF!...mrb

[136] Posted by Mike Bertaut on 09-14-2008 at 07:21 PM • top

In 1954, in the McCarthy “trials” Joseph N. Welsh, speaking on behalf of Fred Fisher, a young lawyer attacked by then senator Joseph McCarthy, responded “Let us not assasinate this lad further, Senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you no sense of decency?

We might well say the same here. Mrs. Shori, let us not assasinate Bishop Duncan further. You have done enough. HAVE YOU - AND YOUR CRONIES - NO SENSE OF DECENCY, AT LONG LAST? HAVE YOU NO SENSE OF DECENCY????

Your response this week will determine whether I and my family and our $$$ will remain in TEC beyond this week

[137] Posted by mike458 on 09-14-2008 at 09:00 PM • top

I wish there were some way of determining whether or not Dr Jefferts Schori reads these posts.  I’m certain that someone must be keeping her posted about what goes on here on this blog.

[138] Posted by Cennydd on 09-14-2008 at 09:06 PM • top

I keep mentioning, and it seems to be ignored, that it is a real interesting thing that there can be an un-baptized lady bishop in this organization.  They’re going to be in Utah, where this person holds office.  Besides the amusing idea that they’ll talk of deposing a bishop when they’re meeting there, how does any one of these great shepherds rationalize even giving communion to, let alone celebrating a eucharist with, an unbaptized person?  Is there no one left who can see this is a bizarre situation?  Demand a baptism (for what it’s worth in TEC).  Then let them explain how this creature has been anything other than an enquirer (certainly not ordained!) for all the time she’s been in a collar.  That should tie them in knots better than anything that’s come along recently.  If it doesn’t get attention, then even “Traditionalists” can hang it up.  No legs to stand on and no pants to put legs in if you had them.

[139] Posted by nwlayman on 09-14-2008 at 09:07 PM • top

response to 138

Cennydd: I’ve prayed that KJS reads ALL of these posts, so she realizes that THOUSANDS of us DON’T buy her agenda - not that she cares. “Good Shepherd?” NOT!

[140] Posted by mike458 on 09-14-2008 at 09:18 PM • top

nwlaymen
I am very curious, I’ve never heard anything about this.  Can you say more?
Thanks

[141] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-14-2008 at 09:43 PM • top

Ps - is this perhaps the first openly unbaptized bishop?  Are there more in the closet?

[142] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-14-2008 at 09:44 PM • top

Our friend St. James reminds me of the latest model martyr:  Designer minorities with a design for domination. Pinky and the Brain meet Chairman Mao. the rhetoric goes like,  “I’m different.  That makes me oppressed.  You’re not in my minority.  That makes you an oppressor.  Death to oppressors!  I just want to be loved.  Is that so bad?”

[143] Posted by Robert Easter on 09-14-2008 at 09:47 PM • top

129 Cennydd,
My question would still be the same even if I considered her the queen of virtue.
I have read that the highest authority in the Episcopal Church is the Diocesan Bishop and I am concerned that the House of Bishops, with the help of Bishops who do not attend, will set a precedent that will change this if they turn over their authority as Diocesan Bishops to the Presiding Bishop at the forthcoming business meeting of the House of Bishops in Salt Lake City on September 18?
The reason I am concerned is because people in our diocese are being told that the Presiding Bishop has no authority and her actions cannot affect us at the local level. I don’t know if I respect this argument but I could be reassured IF I thought that the Diocesan Bishop’s would not turn a blind eye to the Presiding Bishops attempts to remove their authority from the Diocese to the national level.  As it stands now I guess we will have to wait and see if the Diocesan Bishops will still be able to give us this assurance after the meeting.

[144] Posted by Betty See on 09-15-2008 at 12:45 AM • top

If anyone deserves an inhibition and deposition, it’s Katharine Jefferts Schori!

Yes, but too late, now.  There are not enough backbones in the HOB to even begin this.

Behold the absolute takeover of TEC.

Babylon.

[145] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 09-15-2008 at 03:04 AM • top

#137 mike458: I have a recording of Welch’s speech at the McCarthy-Army hearings at

http://www.vulcanhammer.org/?p=244

[146] Posted by vulcanhammer on 09-15-2008 at 06:30 AM • top

To those few happy remaining TEC insiders, my advice is to email/call your bishop promptly about this.  Don’t call KJS evil or deluded.  Don’t say that the Devil is in control of the church. Don’t even directly criticize her plan. 

Instead, bring up how successful ABC was at Lambeth by engaging in Indaba to bring about healing and peace.  Do suggest that the HOB should also use Indaba at this time for the same purposes, esp. since KJS said the purpose of this meeting was to reflect on Lambeth.  Do suggest that now is not the time to be divisive through legislation that results in “winners” and “losers.”  Do suggest that the ambiguity over the legal issues raised with respect to Duncan’s Deposition suggest letting General Convention clarify its intent since after all General Convention is the highest legislative body in TEC (Mark McCall, I’m not saying I agree with what I just wrote but it is a good argument to use here).

And of course, end it by saying that you will be praying for your bishop.

[147] Posted by Widening Gyre on 09-15-2008 at 07:23 AM • top

St James, I like it better with “pail”.  If you knew anything about “rotting fruit” from a tree, you’d know some of it in the very first stages of “rot”, can be salvaged, so it put in a pail (container) to be dealt with quickly.

Other fruit, so rotten that nothing is salvageable, is thrown on the ground (beyond the pail, not in it), for the animals and creatures to deal with, and then thoroughly rotted, plowed under and used as ‘fertilizer”.
GO GREG!!!

Grannie Gloria

[148] Posted by Grandmother on 09-15-2008 at 07:46 AM • top

TEC has kicked the pail.  smile

[149] Posted by monologistos on 09-15-2008 at 08:05 AM • top

Thanks, Widening Gyre.  I think you hit the right tone,
spiritually, morally, and strategically.  Reflecting on Lambeth
is what the meeting is supposed to be about, and this would
be a more appropriate way to do it.  I imagine some of the
panic is about property, which is why Calvary Church in Pittsburgh
initiated their lawsuit a few years ago and is still continuing it.
I don’t know why the deposition item wasn’t on the agenda for
the HOB meeting in the first place (perhaps to give time for
constructive reflection) and I don’t know why it was suddenly
added a few days ago.  I also don’t know what the HOB
parliamentarians will make of the rules violations, but
decisions by parliamentarians are often seen different ways by different
sides: those on the “winning” side think they’ve gotten an
impartial ruling, while those on the “losing” side think the
parliamentarians have ruled in favor of the present leadership’s
take on things rather than keeping to impartiality.

[150] Posted by celindascott on 09-15-2008 at 08:12 AM • top

Number 8 is precisely correct.  There is no original thought here.  It would be intellectually bankrupt to think otherwise.  The woman, by her own admission last April in the Seattle Times, does not have a call to ministry, but was simply seeking a “career change”  when she became a priest.  Nor does she have any actual “hands-on” experience as a parish priest, leader, or administrator.  Furthermore, she has no cognizance of church history or Anglican polity.  All actions are being orchestrated by Beers and other minions who are obviously advising her to “build the plane as she flies it.”  Also, describe the “building of the plane” in pseudo-inclusive terms and touchy/feely Episco-babble as #147 so accurately points out.

[151] Posted by christchurchsavannah on 09-15-2008 at 09:15 AM • top

OF COURSE they are trying to change the focus from the Diocese to National.  Otherwise how can they grab the property when a whole diocese leaves.  Duh.

[152] Posted by old lady on 09-15-2008 at 03:06 PM • top

142-
I believe the poster was referring to bishop Tanner-Irish, who was a Mormon prior to becoming an Episcopalian.  Mormon baptism is not recognized as a Christian Baptism by the Catholic Church.  Rather like the Gene Robinson situation, TEC just went ahead, violated 2000 years of tradition, not to mention Scripture, or for that matter, common sense, and ordained and consecrated her anyway. Not sure if it violates canons, but it sure throws the BCP rubrics out the window (I mean, how do you renew baptismal vows when you didn’t take any?) It invalidates the orders of everyone she has ordained, and arguably, anyone who recognizes her orders, and breaks the Apostolic line (assuming you believe in WO, for an Anglo Catholic, it is all sort of a moot point). 
But its TEC, so who cares?
TEC Canon: A large calibre weapon to be fired only in the direction of the orthodox.

[153] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-15-2008 at 05:17 PM • top

Sorry to break the news, folks, but our Presiding Bishop’s actions are fully in accord with the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church as well as within the rules of the House of Bishops. It looks like it is easier to demonize her than to examine the documents and rules. The Canons in question are open to various interpretations (not rocket science)—and as such the Parlimentarian of the House of Bishops is vested with the responsibility of interpreting them. That is basic Roberts Rules of Order, under which our House of Bishops and General Convention operate by church law. If there are objections to that ruling, it can be appealed. No such appeal has been made—and if an appeal is made and the appeal is successful you can bet your venom that the Presiding Bishop will abide by that decision.

Dallas priest (122), check the rules. This consideration of the deposition of Bob Duncan is covered as the business of the House of Bishops and has been previously referenced. 

Why haven’t the leadership represented in Stand Firm stood up to Bishop Duncan, asking him to live up to minimum standards of integrity? He left the Episcopal Church a long time ago, accusing it of being apostate and its Scriptures as counterfeit. He has performed several actions with the intent of undermining the Episcopal Church.  Why not do what Bishop Jeffrey Steenson did and resign, leave the Episcopal Church and continue his life in some other institution? That is the only question worth asking here, folks.

[154] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 09-15-2008 at 09:53 PM • top

TBW, it’s obvious your ‘ludes are still out in full force. 

grin

[155] Posted by Passing By on 09-15-2008 at 10:01 PM • top

Tom,
Unless I missed it in your bio, a law degree is not among your credentials.

Possibly you can respond to the question of why those who claim to be Christian, fail to call those who repeatedly profane the Gospel to task.  We can start with Ed Bacon of Jesus did not die for our sins fame or Kaeton saying Jesus sinned or Andrus performing marriage ceremonies for same sex couples or the antics of not in my diocese with my permission Bruno.  After all, it is only because of these actions and inactions that the orthodox bishops, priests and laity are forced to stand and defend the Gospel.

[156] Posted by Jackie on 09-15-2008 at 10:15 PM • top

Tom Woodward:  Pray tell, where in the constitution or canons is the Parliamentarian of the House of Bishops made the final arbiter of the canons and constitution?!?!?

The House of Bishops has no standing to vote on the deposition of an uninhibited bishop, ACCORDING TO THE CANONS, and the HoB’s Parliamentarian has NO AUTHORITY ACCORDING TO THE CANONS to change that.  If you disagree, Tom, please quote the specific canonical language.

Because, Tom, more then convincing cases - with explicit references to the text of the canons has been offered by at least two easily accessible conservative commentators on the internet.

The fact of the matter Tom - and you know it - is that the Presiding Bishop is simply ignoring the canonical process and basic due process in order to play power politics.  And this from someone who thinks she has any credibility to speak out on “justice” issues.  Yeah, right!

[157] Posted by jamesw on 09-15-2008 at 11:28 PM • top

Tom, anyone who buys your pack of lies deserves what he gets inreturn.

[158] Posted by Cennydd on 09-16-2008 at 12:29 AM • top

Well I have posted them elsewhere so I will post them here. 

The two conservative posters jamesw refers to are both lawyers:
1. Mark McCall ‘Do bishops deserve due process?’ on ACI here and
2. Curmudgeon has two pieces “Why do the canons matter?” here and here

A close read of both explains carefully why “Presiding Bishop’s actions are” NOT “fully in accord with the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church as well as within the rules of the House of Bishops”

They explain that we are seeing naked and unlawful tyrrany in action here and the abandonment of any pretence of the rule of law.

I would have expected better frankly from Americans and members of our church.

[159] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 09-16-2008 at 01:28 AM • top

Jackie (#156), although Mr Woodward is not a lawyer as you point out, he is a Capricorn - a fact that he apparently believes is so important that he lists it on his “resume” that you cite. I googled “capricorn characteristics” and found these interesting tidbits on those who fall under the horoscope sea-goat sign. These might help us understand his reticence to face reality:

* A Capricorn not only looks harmless, rather he is quite incapable of any serious damage.
* He takes abuses, strains, failures as well as responsibilities quite calmly, without even batting an eyelid.
* Cannot accept authority.
* A little obstinate.
* Strong willpower and resolve but short tempered.
* May put his foot down and refuse to work till he is given the complete power.

I find it rather hilarious that people like Mr Woodward give any credence to astrology. There are ~550 million other Capricorns (= half the population of India) in the world, and they apparently share all the same characteristics of Mr Woodward - a scary thought!

[160] Posted by robroy on 09-16-2008 at 02:19 AM • top

I made a little deal with myself. Read all SF stuff, make no further comments. Waste of time. One variable: If the Seer of Santa Fe drops by to moon us with his extravegantly overblown and underdeveloped “theology.”

If anyone wants to know why TEC has imploded and is now the most marginalized and irrelevant remnant of Christianity on the planet, just look at ol tom. What a great example of Modrun PiscoPalianism. His contribution to our descent into Hell is singular. Right up there with Spong and Ed Browning.

Nice to see you back TW. I needed a little stimulation.

While he is not a canon lawyer, he does remind us of one thing. He, Schori, Beers and the rest of the Wrecking Crew realize they can pervert and alter Canon Law to suit their purposes, and the only thing honest Anglican Christians can do is appeal to the civil courts for redress. If +Bob is injured by their uncanonical complicity and manipulation, he can and should haul these creeps into court.

[161] Posted by teddy mak on 09-16-2008 at 05:46 AM • top

[160] robroy,

You may find it hilarious that TBW gives any credence to astrology, and

[161] teddy mak,

You may find him a source of “stimulation.”

However, I think it behooves us to realize that he, and probably a goodly number of those other progressives to whom you both refer, however obliquely, honestly believe that their’s is the true perception of reality. Sincerity, even in one who

only looks harmless, [and] is quite incapable of any serious damage …

is quite readily capable of supporting someone else whose hunger for power and utter lack of morality, when cloaked in language that sounds sufficiently benign, or even thoroughly altruistic, make them a monstrous threat. The history of the world is riddled with not only such tyrannical beasts posing as men, but with the sycophants and toadies who see the former’s arguments as a great boon to mankind, if only they are followed to their logical conclusions.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

———————-
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”—[Edmund Burke, probably a paraphrase from an unidentified speech or document]

[162] Posted by H. Potter (aka Martial Artist) on 09-16-2008 at 10:37 AM • top

Tom Woodward:  your attitude of “if you don’t like it, leave” has been so pervasive in TEC - have you noticed the decline in membership?  With your kind of reasoning and response who would want to stay and do spiritual battle with you and the rest of the heretical crowd?

[163] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-16-2008 at 07:17 PM • top

Well, perhaps we have evidence that the PB has read Orwell, Marx, and Stalin ... based on her actions ... but none that she has read the canons.

[164] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 09-16-2008 at 07:27 PM • top

You know, it seems that we’ve somehow forgotten to turn, seek, and pray.

From the BCP, 1662

O Most powerful and glorious Lord God, the Lord of Hosts, that ruleth and commandeth all things;

Thou sittest in the Throne judging Right, and therefore we make our address to Thy Divine Majesty in this our necessity,
that Thou wouldest take the cause into Thine own hand, and judge between us and our enemies.

Stir up Thy strength, O Lord and come and help us; for Thou givest not alway the battle to the strong, but canst save by many or by few.

O, let not our sins now cry against us for vengeance; but hear us, thy poor servants begging mercy, and imploring Thy help, and that Thou wouldest be a defence unto us against the face of the enemy.

Make it appear that Thou art our Saviour and mighty Deliverer, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.

Written for sailors facing battle at sea, but in this tempest it seemed a good fit…

[165] Posted by Bo on 09-16-2008 at 08:07 PM • top

uuummm…Santa Fe…..come to think of it, I have a friend who is a psychiatrist who moved to Santa Fe.  His observation was that there were so many pseudo religious folks seeking all sorts of diverse “spirituality” there that they could turn passing gas into a religous experience.

[166] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-16-2008 at 08:18 PM • top

Grannie Gloria, on “beyond the pale”—here is part of what “World Wide Words” has to say, in a question about the origin of “beyond the pail.”  First, the article notes the correct spelling (pale) and then says:
“That word pale has nothing to do with the adjective for something light in colour except that both come from Latin roots. The one referring to colour is from the Latin verb pallere, to be pale, whilst our one is from palus, a stake.

A pale is an old name for a pointed stake driven into the ground and — by an obvious-enough extension — to a barrier made of such stakes, a fence (our modern word pole is from the same source, as are impale and paling). This meaning has been around in English since the fourteenth century. By 1400 it had taken on various figurative senses — a defence, a safeguard, a barrier, an enclosure, or a limit beyond which it was not permissible to go. The idea of an enclosed area still exists in some English dialects.”

(A fence made of pointed stakes is sometimes known as a “palisade fence.”)

Something that is “beyond the pale” is outside the boundaries of acceptable behavior.

Here is the addres of the World Wide Words entry:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pal2.htm

[167] Posted by AnglicanXn on 09-16-2008 at 08:21 PM • top

AnglicanXn:  “Beyond the pale” is where all the Irish lived. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Pale

[168] Posted by AndrewA on 09-16-2008 at 08:28 PM • top

And the Irish lived there because the English had pushed them beyond where the English wanted to live, right in their (the Irish natives’) own country.  As you may know, English policy was to replace the Irish in Ireland with English settlers as much as possible.  That was how the English hoped to gain and maintain control of Ireland—called the “plantation.”  People who went there from Scotland for that reason were called “Scotch Irish.”  Many of the Scotch Irish did not like being in that position and moved to places like southwestern PA.  Visit the Ulster Folk Museum in Northern Ireland to learn more about them.  Very good genealogical center there.  The Scotch Irish treated the Native Americans in western PA in much the same way that they’d treated the Irish.

[169] Posted by celindascott on 09-17-2008 at 06:45 AM • top

87 - Martial Artist wrote:

  It is sad, but at the same time it is a bit like realizing that I have been on a long journey and had somehow slightly mistaken the final destination.

But, MA, I don’t understand…..isn’t it the journey, not the arrival, that matters???  I’m confused…...

Maybe in her next field of employment, KJS will be a travel agent?  wink

Godspeed in your new church home.

[170] Posted by maineiac on 09-17-2008 at 02:53 PM • top

Sorry to break the news,

That’s OK. You didn’t break any. News or truth.

[171] Posted by oscewicee on 09-17-2008 at 03:06 PM • top

87 and 170
HEY, Martial Artist and maineiac!  We are all headed toward the same destination, heaven.  It’s just that some of the transportation systems,denominations and churches, have developed fatal flaws.  Sometimes you have to hitch a ride on a different train.  wink

With God nothing is impossible, though, so some of the broken down trains may yet be repaired.  Hard for us to imagine, but not for God.

p.s.  Hey, wow, I got a smiley!  I have not succeeded at that for months!

[172] Posted by old lady on 09-17-2008 at 03:07 PM • top

to jamesw (#113)

Yes, I also was dumbfounded at the idea of conflict being resolved in favor of the prosecution.  Not under the US Constitution.  Must be the ol’ separation of church and state at play? 

to an earlier post:
As for the prayer for justice/respect the dignity of every human being….that’s code for LBGTetc rights, doesn’t apply in this case (or to the unborn, since TEC fights for the right of women to abort).

[173] Posted by maineiac on 09-17-2008 at 03:19 PM • top

124 Hanks -

Unfortunately, the article concludes w/ the statement that +Duncan won’t be present, nor a number of other conservative/ orthodox bishops, to issue a protest or complaint about the illegal procedure.  Will anyone else have the spine to say to KJS that she’s out of order raising the issue of Pgh?

[174] Posted by maineiac on 09-17-2008 at 03:36 PM • top

Yeah, Hanks….I’ll say it right on this thread:

Katharine Jefferts Schori, YOU ARE ‘WAY OUT OF ORDER in trying to depose a faithful Christian bishop (and you know damned well that he is!) for keeping to his vows to defend the Faith and guard against false teaching!

[175] Posted by Cennydd on 09-17-2008 at 03:47 PM • top

AndrewA - there was a “French Pale” as well—the Norman rulers of England still had lands in France, until the 1400’s, Joan of Arc, etc.  The World Wide Words article (whose author is a professional etymologist) mentions several different “pales,” although the Irish one is best known.

[176] Posted by AnglicanXn on 09-17-2008 at 03:59 PM • top

And for what it’s worth, I am a Leo….with all that that means.

[177] Posted by Cennydd on 09-17-2008 at 04:09 PM • top

#175—what one says on blog is no substitute for the people
entitled to vote actually being at the meeting concerned and making their case.

[178] Posted by celindascott on 09-17-2008 at 04:37 PM • top

Yeah, you’re right, celindascott, but I had to say it just the same!

[179] Posted by Cennydd on 09-17-2008 at 05:27 PM • top

DWSTROUDMD (#164) wrote:

Well, perhaps we have evidence that the PB has read Orwell, Marx, and Stalin ... based on her actions ... but none that she has read the canons.

Dr Stroud—
  Would that be Karl, or Groucho?  I mean, “based on her actions”, it seems debatable.  At least Karl could do economics…  he’d probably have figured out that if you take over a whole bunch of buildings from the parishioners currently paying their heat and mortgage payments, then you’re probably going to start getting bills from power companies and banks that you don’t have the money to pay.  Hard to pay other bills, when you’re spending so much money on beers…  Sounds like Groucho from here.

[180] Posted by Conego on 09-17-2008 at 06:55 PM • top

One other reference for PALE:  The “Pale of Settlement”
was an area in imperial Russia where Jews were allowed to settle and be relatively safe:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_of_Settlement

[181] Posted by St. James on 09-18-2008 at 05:18 PM • top

I should have said “where Jews were required to live.” It
may have been a little safer for them there, but in Czarist Russia there was imcredible oppression of Jews, gypsies and others considered inferior.

The Pale of Settlement covered the western parts of Russia and extended into Poland and other territories controlled by Russia. These lands were occupied by the
German armies in World War II.  Vast numbers of Jews, gypsies, gays and others were sent to Nazi concentration camps and slaughtered systematically to achieve Hitler’s goal of ridding the world of people of “inferior” races to make sure the world would by controlled by the “Master Race,” (Aryans).  Over six million people perished in this way.

Click the link on my post above to learn more.

[182] Posted by St. James on 09-18-2008 at 08:04 PM • top

For the record, Bishop Andrus has not performed marriages between people of the same gender, nor does he permit such by his clergy.

For the record, the General Convention and the House of Bishops state that the proceedings are governed (in the details of doing business) by Roberts Rules of Order. If you check those out, you will find that our PB acted correctly and under the Canons and the rules of the House of Bishops. Bishop Howe of Central Florida notes such in his letter to his clergy.

No Longer. . . I have never taken the position that if you don’t like it, leave. The attacks on the church and its doctrine by Bishop Duncan put him way beyond simple disagreement. He left the Episcopal Church a long time ago—and I wished him well then, as I do today.  I am many others have stayed with the Episcopal Church despite serious disagreements. Before the resurgence of a kind of right-wing Biblical literalism that wants everyone to be in lock-step about Scriptural interpretation, comprehensiveness was important in TEC.

[183] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 09-20-2008 at 03:03 PM • top

[183] TBWSantaFe wrote:

you will find that our PB acted correctly and under the Canons and the rules of the House of Bishops.


But then TBWSantaFe pretty much has to take that position.  Otherwise, he would have to face some very unpleasant facts.  Far better for him to close his eyes, click together the ruby red slippers, and repeat over and over again “She followed the canons.  She followed the canons.”

carl

[184] Posted by carl on 09-20-2008 at 03:17 PM • top

For the record, Bishop Andrus has not performed marriages between people of the same gender, nor does he permit such by his clergy.

If you are using TEC talking points, they are way out of date.  As to the PB acting correctly (or even honestly) I would give you links to the work done by some of the finest legal minds around but my fingers would grow tired.  Just scroll through the line up - most are posted here.  As to Andrus - hate to break it to you but you might want to read from his pastoral letter earlier this year.  Or are you implying he lied when he said he was going to perform same sex marriages?  Either way will not be a shock - you come in here half cocked so often it’s becoming - well - pathetic actually.

Couples who have been married under the auspices of the California Supreme Court ruling must have the same pre-marriage counseling as that required of any couple seeking marriage or blessing of marriage in The Episcopal Church. This should be understood as an offering of the Church’s support for marriage.

I urge Episcopalians, clergy and lay, to volunteer as Deputy Marriage Commissioners. There are over 4,000 civil same-sex marriages planned in a short period of time in the city of San Francisco alone and the city is asking for help in meeting demand. I intend to volunteer for this at my earliest opportunity. This would be one sign of affirmation for the Supreme Court ruling from our diocese. By city requirement, clergy will not be allowed to wear collars when presiding at secular marriages. (For more information about how to be deputized, see the attached appendix.)

[185] Posted by JackieB on 09-20-2008 at 03:25 PM • top

Tom needs to pull the revisionist film from his eyes so he can see clearly!

[186] Posted by TLDillon on 09-20-2008 at 03:40 PM • top

Contemptible mendactity:

For the record, the General Convention and the House of Bishops state that the proceedings are governed (in the details of doing business) by Roberts Rules of Order. If you check those out, you will find that our PB acted correctly and under the Canons and the rules of the House of Bishops. Bishop Howe of Central Florida notes such in his letter to his clergy.

This from our good Curmudgeon:


The House of Bishops governs itself by Roberts Rules of Order in situations not expressly addressed by the House’s own rules. And Roberts Rules Revised (latest [10th] edition) provides, at page 573:
<blockquote>Each society decides for itself the meaning of its bylaws [here: Canons]... An ambiguity must exist before there is any occasion for interpretation… Again, intent plays no role unless the meaning is unclear or uncertain, but where an ambiguity exists, a majority vote is all that is required to decide the question.

(Emphasis added.) So neither the Chancellor nor the Parliamentarian were allowed to decide the question of “ambiguity” in advance of the meeting—-no one, not even the Chair, was so authorized. The question was required to be put to the meeting itself for a vote (but only if there was an ambiguity in the first place!), and that was not done—-instead, the Chair made “rulings”, both in advance and in the meeting, and the appeals from the rulings were denied, by voice vote. So now we have another canonical (parliamentary) violation to add to the catalog.
</blockquote>
Also, at the September meeting last year, +Geralyn Wolf called for division (roll call vote). This call was ignored by Ms Schori even though Robert’s rules state most emphatically that such a motion cannot be ignored. This perhaps why we had written and signed calls for division on the (lynch) vote.

[187] Posted by robroy on 09-20-2008 at 03:43 PM • top

“For the record, Bishop Andrus has not performed marriages between people of the same gender, nor does he permit such by his clergy.” Santa Fe

Sante Fe: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
thanks for the laugh - I needed it - it’s been a long day.

[188] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-20-2008 at 11:44 PM • top

I was googling for something else and found this quote - written in 2005 in “The MSJ”  I don’t know who Craig is, but what a prophet!!
“-Katharine of Nevada would be a perfect PrezBish. Unremittingly PC, insecure, petty, a pastoral disaster for her priests, theology indistinguishable from that of New Age crystal fanciers, manipulative, and authoritarian. She’ll fit in just fine. Craig in Las Vegas”

[189] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-21-2008 at 12:19 AM • top

Bishop Duncan has repeatedly violated his vow to be loyal to the discipline of the Episcopal Church. And he has been warned repeatedly not to continue with actions that violate the Canon Law of the Church. Deposition was recommended nine months ago, so he’s had plenty of time to reconsider. Or, in the alternative, to resign his position and become a bishop elsewhere in the Anglican Communion - which would have been the reconciling, peaceful, humble, and gentlemanly thing to do. The Presiding Bishop pleaded with him to do just that. And now, finally, his brother and sister bishops have deposed him. And y’all expected something else? What? Continuing ignoring Canon Law because he found it inconvenient to obey it?

[190] Posted by oldverger on 09-23-2008 at 12:32 PM • top

[190]
oldverger,
You may not like Bishop Duncan and you may not like his faith stance, but at the very least, he deserved due process and not a lynch mob. Civilization, let alone Christianity, is founded on rules. In the case of the church they take the form of canons. How is it that Bishop Duncan could cause such a rush to depose that the foundational documents of TEC needed to be shunted aside? TEC must surely fear the faith this man stands for.

[191] Posted by Anvil on 09-23-2008 at 12:42 PM • top

Oldverger, let me explain something to you:  When Bishop Duncan was ordained a bishop ten years ago, he took a vow wherein he swore that “I, Robert Duncan, chosen Bishop of the Church in the Diocese of Pittsburgh, solemnly declare that I do believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the Word of God, and to contain all things necessary to salvation; and I do solemnly engage to conform to the doctrine, discipline, and worship of the [Protestant] Episcopal Church [in the United States of America].

Since that time, however the doctrine of The Episcopal Church has been called into question by the great majority of the Anglican Communion.  It has been openly proclaimed that this Church HAS no “core doctrine” by which it can be compared to other provinces in the Communion. 

Yes, it’s true that Bishop Duncan planned to leave The Episcopal Church and take his diocese with him.  I remind you, incidentally, that if you knew anything about his involvement with the AAC, you’d know that he was trying his level best to reform the Church from within, and you’d also know that this would’ve been impossible because of the heretics currently running the Church.

I further remind you and others like you that when Bishop Duncan made his vows, he made them to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; not just to The Episcopal Church, and therefore, he kept his vows, and is doing so now as a bishop of the Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of the Americas and as a member of our House of Bishops.  As such, he is an active bishop of Christ’s Church….and he doesn’t need Mrs Schori’s permission or that of General Convention!

[192] Posted by Cennydd on 09-23-2008 at 01:17 PM • top

oldverger - First of all, please support your allegations that Bishop Duncan violated TEC’s canon law with fact. 

Second of all, there have been many bishops in TEC - including the bishop that KJS appointed to the new TEC Diocese of San Joaquin - who repeatedly, openly and flagrantly violated canon law every time he makes/made a pastoral visitation (open communion).  But nary a word is said about that.

Third of all, are you saying that the proper response to an alleged violation of canon law is an even GREATER violation of canon law?!?!????  What does “being under the authority of TEC’s constitution and canons” mean if the PB repeatedly and flagrantly ignores those canons or “interprets” them in a completely nonsensical way so that they are rendered totally meaningless?  There is no longer any “rule of law” in TEC.  There exists now only tyranny.

[193] Posted by jamesw on 09-23-2008 at 01:22 PM • top

Oldverger, it also looks to me like you think it’s all-important that TEC regards its canons much more highly than preaching and teaching the Word of God.  While the canons ARE important, they are NOT the BE all to END all!

[194] Posted by Cennydd on 09-23-2008 at 01:28 PM • top

Cenydd, I don’t think you have to tell TEC or oldverger that the canons are not all-important - recent actions show that the canons are, in fact, nothing at all to TEC.

[195] Posted by oscewicee on 09-23-2008 at 01:32 PM • top

Hmph….I think you’re right!

[196] Posted by Cennydd on 09-23-2008 at 02:10 PM • top

no longer NH Episcopalian:  Chris Johnson of the Midwest Conservative Journal made this prediction on August 1, 2005:

No way ECUSA lets those bumpkins steal its thunder or its media run.  My money’s on Nevada’s Schori or Indianapolis’s Waynick.

[197] Posted by Piedmont on 09-23-2008 at 02:57 PM • top

including the bishop that KJS appointed to the new TEC Diocese of San Joaquin - who repeatedly, openly and flagrantly violated canon law every time he makes/made a pastoral visitation (open communion).

  I just want to be absolutely clear here James W.  Am I to understand that during his “pastoral” and other visits to parishes, he invites unbaptized persons to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ?  Is there specific written evidence of this?

[198] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-23-2008 at 03:03 PM • top

I do solemnly engage to conform to the doctrine, discipline, and worship of the [Protestant] Episcopal Church [in the United States of America].


Being translated by this backseater;
“I’ll try with all I have within me to remain within the teaching, hierarchy, and liturgy of the PECUSA.”

Unfortunately for the PECUSA, his statement of belief: “I do believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the Word of God, and to contain all things necessary to salvation;” which he re-affirmed when “chosen Bishop of the Church in the Diocese of Pittsburgh” would not allow him to remain in the teaching and hierarchy of what the PECUSA has become.

As a Bishop of the Church, he had to lead his flock in accordance with Scripture and the Traditions handed down.  He ‘engaged to conform’ but found that like St. Paul, and St. John, that he had to obey Christ and not the hierarchy.

May God have mercy on the hierarchy.

[199] Posted by Bo on 09-23-2008 at 07:14 PM • top

Sorry, St. Peter and St. John.

[200] Posted by Bo on 09-23-2008 at 07:16 PM • top

Bo, as you know, the HOB did not say that the reason 3/4 of them gave to depose Bishop Duncan was that he “believed Holy Scriptures to contain the word of God, and to contain all things necessary for salvation.”  The reason they gave was that he had told the leaders of his diocese that it was ecclesiastically legal for them to vote to leave TEC.  We may believe, with Bishop Duncan, that if one “believes Holy Scripture to contain the word of God, and to contain all things necessary for our salvation” that we can’t remain in TEC, because Bishop Pike, Bishop Spong, Bishop Chane, the present bishop of Los Angeles, the previous PB, the present PB, etc., etc. have shown by their teaching and their actions that they don’t believe that, nor do they believe in the definition of church doctrine in the constitution (which adds the creeds and the doctrine implied in the Book of Common Prayer).  Many on this list have said that Bishop Duncan has tried repeatedly, but to no avail, to change the drift in TEC.  However, in my opinion, he has shut himself off prematurely from talk with other bishops and I do not accept his argument that to remain faithful to the doctrine expressed above, one must leave TEC.  I consider the fact that 1/4 of the HOB voted against his deposition—all of the Windsor Bishops, I think, and some others—as indicative of the strength of the faithful witness which remains in TEC.

[201] Posted by celindascott on 09-23-2008 at 08:17 PM • top

Oldverger
I think I’ve decided that every time I read on this site that if someone doesn’t like what’s going on in TEC to just leave I’m going to point it out.  You TECcanistas just don’t seem to get that we are doing excatly that.  Thats why the ASA is plummeting.  Also, only bullies want the opponent to leave. Reasonable people try to work out their differences.

[202] Posted by no longer NH Episcopalian on 09-23-2008 at 08:34 PM • top

Celinda,
I cannot say with certainty in Bishop Duncan’s case, but most frequently the initial movement to leave TEC comes from the laity.  Given the difficulties in getting +Mark Lawrence confirmed, the statements by several bishops since he was confirmed indicating that they would not confirm another conservative, and the open statements by members of the executive committee and DBB prior to the Pittsburgh convention of last year that they intended to depose and sue +Duncan, among others, and the frequent commentary on the HoBD listserve by dozens of its members confirming the leadership’s intentions to get rid of +Duncan personally, conservative bishops in general, and to refuse consent to any conservative bishop nominee have led many, including myself, to conclude that within 20 years, there will be NO conservative diocese in TEC.  There will certainly be no conservative bishop.
Now, had the ABoC acted as late as last fall on the Dar proposals, and provided the Primate sanctioned Council and Vicar, with protections and adequate oversight, we would not have reached this point.  TEC did all in its power to prevent such oversight, and for whatever reasons, the ABoC acquiesced to their demands (I sincerely do look forward in 10 years to reading his autobiography, I think there must be much more going on here than meets the eye). 
  But, since no protection is being offered, the diocese voted to amend its canons.  TEC decided then to force the issue.  OK, now it is forced.  Suppose the vote to amend the canons fails on Oct. 4, but the diocese then selects a “Mark Lawrence” for its new bishop.  He gets 35 or 40 consents of the 60 needed.  After they fail enough times, a “Stacy Sauls” is appointed to run the place, throws out 1/2 the rectors, replacing some vestries, and we hold a new election in which a “John Chane” is elected.  Where exactly does that scenario leave the orthodox of Pittsburgh?
+The deposition of +Bob Duncan has been writing on the wall since the day he stood up and walked out of the HoB meeting after the election of Robinson.  As has the destruction of orthodox diocese, clergy and laity.

[203] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-23-2008 at 09:03 PM • top

TJMcMahon, thank you for your sincerity and politeness. However,  if “conservative” means what we referred to above (belief that the Holy Scriptures contain the Word of God, and all things necessary to salvation; and that the essential doctrine of our church is contained in the creeds and in the Book of Common Prayer), there would have to be a change in the constitution of TEC for there to be no more bishops who believed in those things in 20 years.  The thing to do, in my opinion, is to remain in TEC, rejoice that we have bishops like ++Mark Lawrence, ++John Howe, ++Edward Little, and others, support them with our prayers, and work to elect deputies in our own dioceses who will not vote to change the constitution where the definition of doctrine is concerned. We also need to support seminaries like TESM and Nashotah, and teachers in the more liberal seminaries who express more orthodox opinions.  In the matter of education of the laity, we need to pray that in the US, there will appear scholars like ++N.T. Wright who are willing, politely and in charity, to go head-to-head with those who mistakenly think that Arian beliefs are something new, something “scientific” and more “adaptable to the modern age.”  In addition,  it might be a good idea to work to change the constitution so that in matters of faith a comparatively small group of people, the HOB and deputies to GC, can not make sweeping changes in the triennial meetings of the GC.  Analogy:  the US Constitution can’t be amended by Congress.  A super-majority of the states have to do so.  The present provisions for constitutional amendment in TEC date back to 1789, I think, when the church was much smaller. I may be wrong about when the provisions were added; in any case, they are inadequate to deal with differences of opinion in the church today, and with the size of the church. When recent change has taken place, it’s been superimposed by a narrow minority, and it appears that change has taken place without consensus. About the Diocese of Pittsburgh, and whether a subsequent bishop has a chance of being orthodox:  you may know that the PB has agreed to work with Across the Aisle, a group of evangelicals, Anglo-Catholics, and liberals all wanting to work together while remaining in TEC; to my mind, that gives some hope.

[204] Posted by celindascott on 09-23-2008 at 09:45 PM • top

Celindascott,

I’m not at all sure what I would have done in Bishop Duncan’s position.  I think I expressed the essentials of his reasoning, that what he believes prevented his earnest efforts in conforming to the discipline of the presiding heretic and the ‘PECUSA’.

I have great love and respect for Bishop Howe, and for the others who try to stand in the breach.  They may be used of God to save the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States, or they may like Leonidas, die defending the breach, so that others have the time to make ready for a more successful war. 

I am not a Prophet, nor the son of a Prophet.  I can not see clearly enough to tell them which path is theirs to follow.  Nor can I know what God would have others in orthodox parishes and diocese do. (Rather obviously those in the synagogues of Satan which claim to PECUSA and are not Churches at all, but dins of thieves and heretics should flee now!)

I do however, think (as in I think the sun will rise tomorrow) trusting the presiding heretic and the current house of bishops to have any respect for Scriptures or Canon Law is foolhardiness.

[205] Posted by Bo on 09-24-2008 at 09:10 PM • top

Oh, yeah one other thing (and it relates to the trusting of the hierarchy) - it wasn’t 3/4 of the HoB that voted Bishop Duncan out.  It was actually less than one third of them.

[206] Posted by Bo on 09-24-2008 at 09:12 PM • top

About the above statistics:  looking at the list of members of the HoB who voted, none of them were retired (although 8 of them were “resigned” and apparently did not have other episcopal functions).  Question:  is that usually what happens at the HoB—no retired bishops attend or vote?  Looking at a list of all the members of the HoB, of those who were not retired I counted 21 did not attend and have the list, if anyone is interested.  That changes the statistics substantially:  of the total non-retired bishops in TEC (148, if my list was correct and I counted right), 88 voted yes.  That percentage is 60%, which is a majority.  Another question:  does anyone know why no retired bishops attended?

[207] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 07:21 AM • top

Celindascott,
The House of Bishops isn’t just those who make the party.

A count of the house includes the retired, the infirm, the unwilling to come.  Facts matter.  (Well, maybe not to the ‘liberals’, Scripture doesn’t seem too either….)

[208] Posted by Bo on 09-25-2008 at 07:48 AM • top

No quarrel with what you say above. However, the retired—none of them—simply didn’t come.  That’s a fact whether one is liberal or conservative.  Did they just pick this one occasion to not attend, or do they ever attend?  Many of them would have been strongly in Bp Duncan’s corner.  Perhaps they don’t attend because of the cost, which they’d have to bear themselves (airfare, lodging, etc.).—Just considering the maximum possible non-retired vote, if my list and math were correct:  60% of that total was yes, 40% of that total was no.  To me, that is an indication that although the conservative voice is not a majority in TEC, it’s a pretty healthy minority and is an additional reason to me to stay in TEC.  The more people leave, of course, the lower that 40% will become.

[209] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 08:54 AM • top

Celinda, you are incorrect when you write

However, the retired—none of them—simply didn’t come.

That is not true.  10 retired bishops were present at the HoB meeting, and they all voted YES to depose.  It proves that retired bishops are among those eligible to vote.

And frankly, seeing what KJS has done to retired Bishops Cox and McBurney (sp?), why would any orthodox retired Bishop show up?  KJS would probably depose them too.  Sorry for the cynicism, but I fear it is way too close to the truth.

[210] Posted by Karen B. on 09-25-2008 at 09:02 AM • top

Celinda, I just reread your comment.  TEC’s use of “resigned” is odd—but it means retired.  Hope that clears up the confusion.

[211] Posted by Karen B. on 09-25-2008 at 09:06 AM • top

Thanks, Karen, that does clear up the confusion, and leads to another comment.  If I’m counting correctly, out of the 294 bishops entitled to vote, 146 were retired bishops who did not attend and 8 were retired bishops who did attend.  All 8 retired bishops who came voted to depose, and as I look at their names, some of them were quite active on the liberal side of the issues. If TEC funded their attendance and did not fund the attendance of any retired bishops o the orthodox side, that would certainly be cause for complaint, although hard to prove:  private funding could have done it, as private funding has helped with much of Bp. Duncan’s activities—and there’s nothing illegal about that.—I do find it hard to believe that most non-attending, retired orthodox bishops feared they would be put in the same category as the bishops you mentioned unless they had counseled their flocks to leave TEC. I think it’s very important to keep to the facts about the cause of Bishop Duncan’s deposition:  it was not what he believed, it was the strategy he counseled to defend that belief:  leave TEC. (And it needs to be repeated that the request for deposition was brought to the PB by clergy and laity within the Diocese of Pittsburgh:  I’ve seen the letter, and know many of the signers. Their main worry was about property in the Diocese of Pittsburgh, which would include the property of parishes which are mixed.  It’s very distressing, of course, to know that letter was sent and who sent it.  But it was not initiated by the PB.)  I know people get very emotional about the defense of orthodox belief, and equate the two things—defending orthodox belief and leaving TEC in order to underline that defense—but they are not the same.

[212] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 09:49 AM • top

celindascott: You are correct that there is a distinction, however in the case of Pittsburgh one can see the lines pretty clearly.  The clergy who are orthodox believers but are not supporting realignment are NOT the ones who have brought the lawsuits nor are they the ones involved in sending information to the presiding bishop.  I personally disagree with them and believe that they will be sorry for their decision, but it is not correct to completely associate them with Harold Lewis and Co., though, alas, they have recently teamed up with him for strategic purposes (something else for which I think they will be sorry).

[213] Posted by Ann Castro on 09-25-2008 at 10:11 AM • top

celindascott, that doesn’t justify deposing - in violation of canons - a bishop before he actually violates the canons and leaves. Pre-emptive “justice” is a shameful example for a Christian church to set.

[214] Posted by oscewicee on 09-25-2008 at 10:13 AM • top

Celinda, if you do not believe that the actions of the clergy and laity in Pgh were encouraged, or perhaps solicited by the PB’s office, then I submit that you are not paying attention, or perhaps have a much more generous view than I do of the church politics of this time.

My basic objection to the “inside” strategy is this - your contributions and support go to 815 - and if you withhold contributions, your diocese does not get a vote.  If that is not the case now, it will be shortly.  That will put you, personally, in the position of financially and morally supporting practices that are repugnant at best - or removing your voice from the “democratic” process.  Not a good choice…

[215] Posted by GillianC on 09-25-2008 at 10:14 AM • top

Gillian—I’m afraid you don’t know the Diocese of Pittsburgh very well.  When Bishop Hathaway was elected by a narrow margin in the 1980s, succeeding Bishop Appleyard (who had sponsored several social action programs, some of them liberal), the then rector of Calvary—with others—consistently worked against the direction Bishop Hathaway, an Evangelical, was attempting to establish in the diocese. I was on Diocesan Council during some of the time that Bishop Hathaway was being criticized, and worked to defend him. When the present rector of Calvary was installed, well before the election of the present PB, the vocal opposition continued—and when Bishop Duncan was elected bishop of the diocese, it intensified, especially as the number of conservative clergy in the diocese grew.
The rector of Calvary—and other liberal spokespersons—had no need of advice in how to express their opposition, which they did at many levels.  To say that liberal elements in the diocese had to be advised and manipulated by the present PB is a misrepresentation of the facts.

[216] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 12:31 PM • top

celindascott, your bringing up Bishop Appleyard brought back many memories for me.

Robert Appleyard was my rector at Bethesda (the same parish George Conger grew up at) before he went to Pittsburgh.  He baptised me (not as an infant, I might add.)  We all thought he was the greatest.  I went to school with his younger son Jon, who used to say that his father was a Canon, and he was a son of a gun!  (Jon could back that up, by the way.)

After he got to Pittsburgh, my mother lamented that he had “gone liberal.”  But by then my family (along with many others) was for the most part dropping out of TEC, a reminder that the church’s problems with losing people didn’t start with V. Gene Robinson.

[217] Posted by vulcanhammer on 09-25-2008 at 01:19 PM • top

Thanks, vulcanhammer—I’ve heard how well-liked Bp Appleyard was, and I think at least one of his sons (maybe your friend Jon) became a priest—maybe two.  I should say that Bishop Hathaway, and Bishop Duncan after him did not neglect “corporal works of mercy” at all, but they tended to be overtly accompanied by teaching about Jesus—Shepherd’s Heart is a wonderful example of success with that thrust—and very dedicated people carry out that ministry full-time, with help from parishes.  In addition, the diocese continued financial support of less overtly gospel-oriented, but successful youth (and otherwise) programs in parishes in poor areas. Bishop Scriven has been very committed to social action on many levels.  The Commission on Racism has been very active and anti-racism training has been emphasized.—Both Bishop Appleyard and Calvary, I think, were committed to carrying out in the church a response to what the APA had decided in 1973:  that homosexual practice should not be considered an aberration.  I think they were afraid that Evangelicals were strongly opposed, as a group, to a relaxation of the strictures of the Apostle Paul on the subject.  In addition, in the Methodist Church—and many others—there was a de-emphasis on global missionary activity at least starting in the 1980s, and another fear of liberals, I think, was that Evangelicals of whatever denomination would disagree with that as an abandonment of part of the essence of what it is to be the church.  We are obviously still dealing with that important disagreement today.

[218] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 02:51 PM • top

Ann (213)—as you can see from my post above, the “liberal” element is still present in the Diocese of Pittsburgh, even though currently not a majority as it was in the early 1980s.  In addition, some of it is responsible for asking for and successfully obtaining the deposition of our bishop, which is very hurtful to many of us.  Obviously, those of us who are evangelical and conservative, but convinced that our best witness is to remain in the diocese,  have been somewhat nervous about what will happen in the diocese after so many conservatives leave.  Across the Aisle is the name of a group which was formed to work on that transition.  At meetings I’ve been to and from discussions I’ve heard about, Across the Aisle respects all three streams: conservative/evangelical, liberal, and Anglo-Catholic, and is well-represented by all three groups.  At first I was afraid voices would not be heard evenly, but we have good leadership—several evangelicals are in positions of top leadership, and express themselves firmly and eloquently—and I do not think I am naive in hoping for a good outcome.

[219] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 03:11 PM • top

celindascott (219): I wish you well, but I do think you are very naive.  I do not believe for one moment that conservative views will long be tolerated in the Presiding Bishop’s Diocese of Pittsburgh.  I think there will be a sort of grace period and then the axe will fall.  I would like to be wrong about that, but I do not think that I am.

[220] Posted by Ann Castro on 09-25-2008 at 03:36 PM • top

How do you think the axe will fall?

[221] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 04:05 PM • top

I do not want to get into an extended discussion about this in a public setting, but the most likely starting point will be when clergy retire or move on and must be replaced.  I do not think that conservative clergy will have a chance of being called, perhaps not even considered.  Parishes will be forced to interview gay and lesbian clergy and heavily pressured to call them.  Missions will not have any choice but to accept them.  That’s just the beginning.

[222] Posted by Ann Castro on 09-25-2008 at 04:12 PM • top

And then we have our situation here in the Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin…..where we’re not under pressure to do any such things.  Color us fortunate, I guess.

[223] Posted by Cennydd on 09-25-2008 at 04:15 PM • top

I am surprised if parishes can be forced to interview gay and lesbian clergy, partly because at the consecration of Bp Robinson it was said over and over again that it was a local initiative, that no one could be forced to ordain or consecrate or hire anyone they did not want to, etc.  Also—it would be forcing a parish to go against the moratoria, which is not the same thing as allowing a parish
to move within what is already a fait accompli.  Please let me know how I can contact you if you are willing to continue this discussion off-line.

[224] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 04:41 PM • top

Celindascott,

Years ago, a essay was written here (Greg G.?) that compared the migration of orthodox Christians away from the Episcopal Church to a church pew. As people on the right end of the pew leave, persons formerly in the middle find that they are now pushed to the end. It sounds like you will soon be in that position in Pittsburg.

Most of us that have left were at one time in your position.  For my family, the tipping point occurred when we realized that we could continue to risk raising children in a denomination that we did not want them to participate in while in college or the working world. 

The PB would be smart to promise the world to moderates in Pittsburg at this stage. However, those who have labored under a revisionist or even a moderate “institutional” Bishop can tell you how blessed you have been under Duncan, and what is in store for you down the road. For those remaining, everything will change, from Cursillo, to the choice of speakers at Diocesan events, Diocesan youth events, to the Diocesan budget. 
Meanwhile, the newly constituted TEC Diocese will again contribute to TEC’s national operations, and all that entails.

[225] Posted by Going Home on 09-25-2008 at 04:46 PM • top

Ann—thanks for all those specifics.  Looks as though we will need to be very pro-active in our diocese not only as we re-form, but for many years to come as we try not to push
out the conservative/evangelical witness.  We have had
evangelicals, liberals, and Anglo-Catholics working together in TEC in the past; it should not be impossible for it to continue if we are warned about the ways we can try to push each other out, be aware of them as they start to happen, and keep those things from happening.  We are a diocese for all of the Episcopalians in Pittsburgh, not just a portion of them.

[226] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 04:57 PM • top

Actually it was someone else who gave additional specifics, and he/she is entirely correct.  All those things will change.  I do not wish to be rude, but I would rather not continue the discussion off-line.  You will not believe me anyway.  All you have to do is read the many posts here on Stand Firm about how revisionist bishops treat their conservative clergy and parishioners.  As another writer pointed out, we have been very protected here in Pittsburgh through the graciousness of Bishop Duncan.  It has been due to his leadership that, prior to the Calvary lawsuits, various groups were able to work together.  As I said earlier, I wish you luck but you are being extremely naive.  Don’t say that this or that “cannot” be done.  You’ve seen how the national leadership is willing to completely ignore the canons when it suits them.  Get used to it.  They can and will do exactly as they please in Pittsburgh and elsewhere.  And remember, if the new disciplinary canons are passed at the next Gen. Con., even to voice an objection to their agenda will disqualify one to serve on a vestry or as a convention delegate.

[227] Posted by Ann Castro on 09-25-2008 at 05:27 PM • top

Celinda, sorry, I’ve been away from the computer for a few hours, and not able to respond.  I’ve been in the Diocese of Pittsburgh for many years, and my father has been a priest of this diocese for almost 30 years, so I know a little about what I’m saying.  You probably know him, but I’ll let him speak for himself - he’s never been shy about his opinions.  My point was not that the liberals in this diocese NEEDED encouragement, but that they certainly GOT encouragement from 815 and the liberal factions around the country.  I’m quite sure that Lewis et al have quite enough gumption to throw flies in any ointment, but the tactics definitely have an odor of New York to me. (apologies to New Yorkers, I DO mean 815 Second Avenue)

What can the liberals do?  Do you remember when WO was a “local option”?  Remember the assurances that no person, parish, diocese or bishop would be “forced” to accept WO (which I am in reserved favor of, by the way).  Those days are gone, and now the mandate is that no diocese may elect a bishop who will not ordain and/or accept woman priests.  That took less than 25 years, Celinda.  Think about it.  Really think when you talk about how parishes cannot be “forced” into anything.  Think about the fact that +Bob can no longer be a Bishop of this church, abandoned and spurned and rejected by his brother and sister bishops.  What writing on the wall are you waiting for?
Work your inside plan, if that is what God calls you to do - I know many who are doing the same.  I pray for them and I’ll pray for you and your parish.  Just don’t go into the battle with your eyes closed, underestimating the opposition, and forgetting it is a battle.

[228] Posted by GillianC on 09-25-2008 at 05:52 PM • top

Celinda,
Assuming you have read the canonical revisions to be voted in at GC09, you must realize that it will become illegal to be an Anglo Catholic in TEC after that time.  The canons will no longer permit parishes to select the gender of their priests under the new Title III.  According to the majority of posters on the HoBD listserve, this is already the case, but it would appear to a more impartial eye that the current Title III offers just a bit of wiggle room.  However, taken with the new abandonment canon, the new lay loyalty canon, and others, it becomes very clear that Anglo Catholicism will no longer be tolerated.
  The only two remaining Anglo Catholic bishops will be gone before then, by deposition if they do not leave by their own accord beforehand.  After GC09, there will be few if any Anglo Catholics left in TEC, because there will be no Anglo Catholic bishops left in TEC, . Whatever your “coalition”, it will not include us, we will no longer be there to include.

[229] Posted by tjmcmahon on 09-25-2008 at 05:57 PM • top

Sorry I didn’t realize some of those warnings came from Going Home.  Ann—I’m also very grateful for the leadership of Bishop Hathaway, who renewed the evangelical voice in the diocese in the first place.  Many of us supported Bishop Duncan’s candidacy just because we hoped he would continue to support the evangelical voice.  I still don’t think it was necessary to take the strongly adversarial role against the national church which Bishop Duncan did in 2003; I remember being told by a friend not to worry, that the diocese would continue just as it had in the Episcopal church, but that we would be the “real” Episcopalians and soon the whole Communion would recognize us as that.  Surely that set the stage for an atmosphere of conflict and distrust, exacerbated in 2006 when some conservatives wouldn’t even take communion with the rest of TEC represented there, had their own meetings blocks away, etc.  If bishops in other dioceses have been leery of conservatives, surely all that—continuing with increasing intensity—has had something to do with it. One challenge for those of us who remain is to deal constructively with that legacy, protecting ourselves from
being ignored and/or pushed out on the one hand, and building trust on the other.

[230] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 05:58 PM • top

celinda, how will you protect yourselves? I’d like to know.

[231] Posted by oscewicee on 09-25-2008 at 06:15 PM • top

Gillian—I do remember when accepting WO was an option, and then no longer an option, and the harm that did.  I also remember the taking away of that option as being one of the reasons it was very important to work against the same thing happening with the issues about homosexuality; that is certainly one of the things a coalition of people on opposite sides of the aisle who remain in the diocese need to be willing to deal with.  TJMcMahon—I knew WO was important to Anglo-Catholics, but you say it is a defining issue—as the issue of Mary, the Mother of God and her veneration is a defining issue for others.  A priest in our diocese was very offended by the criticism leveled at Abp Williams for going to the sesquicentennial celebration at Lourdes and for preaching the sermon he did, saying he could not be part of a religious coalition in which members took offense at the veneration of the BVM. So—for one reason (WO) or another (the treatment of Mary), Anglo-Catholics appear to have to work alone.  However, I know of two priests in our diocese who call themselves Anglo-Catholics, venerate the BVM, but don’t have an unsurmountable problem with WO—and another one who used to be in our diocese, and is now deceased). —Ann:  about the new disciplinary canon involving laity, which some have said makes the church like a corporation, with everyone having to be on board and on-message in order to sell the product:  that is a very bad canon which I hope will be struck down before it is even proposed.  I’ve commented about that in detail elsewhere.

[232] Posted by celindascott on 09-25-2008 at 09:12 PM • top

Obviously the new bishop of TEC’s Pittsburgh diocese will hold the key to how conservatives will make out in the coming years.  We all know the power of a bishop to set the agenda and culture of a diocese.  Will the conservatives have the numbers to pick the new bishop?  Depends on how many stay.  Or will the PEP folks pick the new bishop?  On which side will the moderates fall?  If the Calvary/PEP side gets their bishop I suspect things will go very badly for conservatives.  The big vote is in nine days and then we will start to see how things shake out.

[233] Posted by Nevin on 09-25-2008 at 09:59 PM • top

As far as I can see legally the see of Pittsburgh is not vacant because TEC failed to follow its own ruled for deposition and currently Pittsburgh is a TEC diocese.

It seems likely the situation is destined to follow the precedent of San Joaquin with further actions by the bandit queen outside TEC’s rules.

Such is the situation when the rule of law is abandoned.  Laid out for us all to see.  Very sad.

[234] Posted by Pageantmaster [Free Archbishop Cranmer] on 09-26-2008 at 03:57 AM • top

celinda: Yes, it would be a very bad canon, if passed.  But all you have to do is look at the vote against Bp. Duncan.  The numbers don’t lie; this canonical change will pass.  I know you want desperately to believe that your new allies are honorable people.  I hate to tell you this, but they are not.  You are useful to them at the moment, but that state of affairs will not last.

[235] Posted by Ann Castro on 09-26-2008 at 07:10 AM • top

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