Presiding Bishop:  Worst Of Crisis In Denomination Is Over

Regarding vainglory:  “He who asks God for gifts in return for his labors has laid unsure foundations.  He who regards himself as a debtor will unexpectedly and suddenly receive riches.”

St. John of Sinai, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, “On Vainglory,” Step 22, # 33, p. 135.

“Arguing about fine details of theology isn’t the main reason for our existence.”

On the surface, she is correct.  But, the problem is that Revisionists never go deeper than the surface.  It is not a stretch to say that they are avoiding theology all together, not just the “fine details.”  We could also debate whether these are “fine details” or not.

I think I agree with her.  The crisis is pretty much over.  So is the denomination.

And the worst is yet to come!

Delusional.

The PB said:

Jefferts Schori spoke of her grief about the Pittsburgh Diocese’s decision to leave because of disagreements with the church over biblical teachings about homosexuality and salvation.

“That’s just profoundly sad,” she said. “Arguing about fine details of theology isn’t the main reason for our existence.”

I am surprised (well, no, not really) to learn that salvation is one of the “fine details of theology”!!

She also predicted that openly gay bishops will be elected in the future, despite an agreement among bishops not to consent to such elections for the time being.

It sounds as if the Season of Gracious Restraint is now over.

The reorganization of the Pittsburgh Diocese has begun, led by diocesan officials who chose to remain with the Episcopal Church, Jefferts Schori said. The breakaway congregations still occupy church property, and the denomination will reclaim it through the courts if necessary.

“Our job isn’t to be vindictive about their departure but to say, ‘We bless your journey, we wish you all the best. And if you want to come back, the door’s open and we’ll keep the porch light on.’ ”

And never forget: the house, the porch, and the porch light still belong to her!  ROTFLOL, indeed ... she has apparently forgotten that +Duncan is still (or will again be soon) in the house, and she has been kicked to the curb.

#3, I think there are two more dioceses yet to be heard from this year. There are possibly three to four more next year.

After all of them have answered the Clash’ question, then the short term crisis will be over. As for the Episcopal Church, it’s major crisis, the one where the Gospel is denied, that crisis will continue for quite a while.

The Episcopal Church: Excelling at non-recognition for over thirty years.

The problem is we have someone as PB who didn’t go to seminary, has never been the rector of a parish, who was elected bishop to a diocese that declined during her tenure…of course she doesn’t know what she is talking about…

This CD article isn’t very good journalism, BTW.

1 - Crisis over?  That is waaay beyond risible.  From what alternate reality does the Presiding Bishop take that view?  If the crisis is over, then RIGHT NOW - stop, halt, cease, and desist the lawsuits TEC has in place against the orthodox and fire DBB because obviously his services are no longer needed.
2 - It would be lovely to have all revisionists, including Bp. Jefferts Schori, actually declare what their theology actually is and upon what it is truly founded.  Don’t worry, I am not holding my breath on this one.
3 - In RE:

predicted that openly gay bishops will be elected in the future, despite an agreement among bishops not to consent to such elections for the time being.

That, friends, is an open declaration of lawlessness.  HoB, what more do you need?  Bring presentment charges today, or accept lawlessness as YOUR everlasting legacy to the faithful.  HoB, your silence damnable.
4 - What in God’s green earth is the bona fide reason for any institution conferring an honorary D.D. upon Jefferts Schori???
5 - Bp. Jefferts Schori, how does any church evangelize when there is absolutely no message of good news coming from it???????
6 - The “interview” has more TEC boilerplate about DFMSoPECUSA/ECUSA/TEC’s role in slavery/racism, but what is TEC really actually doing except proclaiming a tepid, false repentance on behalf of those long dead?
7 - Service????????????????????????????????????????????

Christe eleision!!!!!!!

“Fine points about Theology”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How about her statements that Jesus is not unique but one of many great men and one of many ways to God’ (as she sees Him).

Another piece of spin.  No, we probably won’t see the level of congregational and diocesan departures that have happened in the last couple of years - but the number of people who will disappear will continue or even increase.  Goes back to her definition of the church as real estate rather than people.
Older folks (the majority of the denomination) will be gone by attrition.
People who just can’t stand conflict and craziness will leave simply because TEC is unpleasant to be around.
People with even a glimmer of orthodox faith and spirituality will leave because a person like Schori can be “the spiritual leader of the Episcopal Church.”

Let’s see…

2 dioceses have already left, but at least 2 more are headed out, with 3-5 more to go in the near-to-mid term. So we’re not even halfway through that mess yet.

Membership continues to drop like a stone, with no end in sight.

Two dioceses (that we know of) are talking about merging due to low membership and lack of funds. A betting man would have little choice but to bet that more of these are on the horizon.

TEC is almost sure to end up flushing away millions upon millions of dollars in litigation fees in Virginia, with nothing to show for it. If they decide to go this route in Fort Worth, the outcome is likely to be even worse for them, if that’s possible.

Oh yeah, and there’s this matter of what’s going to happen in Anaheim next summer. There are basically two options:

1) Integrity and General Convention (but I repeat myself) push the enveloper, and pass some sho-nuff authorization of gay blessings and associated liturgies; 815 gets its property and discipline measures passed, and in general it’s the tawdry freak-left spasm we’ve all come to expect from GenCon, only worse. News gets back to parishes and diocese that are now on the fence, and all hell breaks loose anew.

2) KJS puts a muzzle on Integrity, and keeps them from advancing the gay ball downfield. No SSB or liturgy resolutions, or anything else that will give the willies to the pew-sitters back home. The gay lobby goes into conniptions, with much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Murmurs of KJS selling them out simmer and occasionally boil over.

Now you tell me… which one is more likely?

This woman is more delusional than I feared.

Arguing about fine details of theology isn’t the main reason for our existence

As if this were all about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The secular press will buy it because it all seems pretty arcane to them.

In re:Posting 9, #4 question.  You’d understand if you had met the dean of Bexley Hall

I agree the denomination is headed downhill (I said as much).  I just don’t see any definition of “crisis” that would apply to it anymore: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crisis

It seems to me that the course has already been set for disaster for the denomination.

Sadly, I must say she is right; the crisis is basically over from their point of view.  They went for broke in 2003 and they’ve pretty much gotten everything they wanted.  The ABC won’t stop them, and the other “Instruments of Unity” are equally unwilling, or unable, to do so.

KJS and her fellow travellers are now looking consolidate their victory by redefinig “tradition,” “orthodoxy,” “reason,” etc., in their terms and to their advantage.

Since there are those who advocate that the crisis is over, I’ll reiterate, “If the crisis is over, then RIGHT NOW - stop, halt, cease, and desist the lawsuits TEC has in place against the orthodox and fire DBB because obviously his services are no longer needed.”

TEC can rest assured - the future lies ahead.

One other thing:

Jefferts Schori spoke of her grief about the Pittsburgh Diocese’s decision to leave because of disagreements with the church over biblical teachings about homosexuality and salvation.

Well well.  Remember Jim Naughton’s claim a few days ago, that there were NO differences re: belief about Christ and Salvation, that TEC was totally orthodox?!  KJS’ statement lets slip perhaps more than she realized.  She acknowledges that there are two different teachings / beliefs about salvation.  We know what +Duncan and those in Pittsburgh believe.  Ergo, TEC is promoting some other teaching.

I’m glad to see KJS acknowledging even if unintentionally that there IS a difference in beliefs and teaching about salvation.  That’s more than ++Rowan and many other Anglican leaders acknowledge.

And Schori’s statement that salvation is among “fine details not worth arguing over” just proves the point that the difference is VAST.

Karen B.:  “It was a crisis?  Who knew?”  Thanks!  I needed a laugh!

I still want to know how much the financial crisis, which really is one, is going to affect TEC’s ability to continue pursuing all these lawsuits.  Let Jeffers Schori try to make that one go away.

FWIW, I am only too happy to hear KJS make these sort of claims.  File them next to the claim that the law in Virginia is clearly on TEC’s side, and the claim that the courts will clearly prevent the reaffiliating dioceses from taking their property with them.  File them next to the claims that once these few pesky conservatives leave, TEC will be able to elect openly gay bishops and authorize same-sex “marriage” with no further reprecussions.  File them next to the claim that most Global South bishops secretly support TEC’s liberalism but are afraid to say so due to the big, mean, bigoted primates.

At some point (I predict after a series of catastrophic losses in court and the increasingly hostile reactions from Anglican Communion bishops), the wishy-washy middle of the HoB will begin to question KJS and her bogus prophecies.  And then TEC will descend into a chaos that makes the current situation seem like child’s play.

I think the PB is taking the long view, in which case she is correct, the worst is over.  If we look at membership and ASA statistics since 1965, and allow for resonable estimates of decline for 2007 and the first 3/4 of 2008, we can recognize that while the population of the US has nearly doubled, TEC has now lost 51% of its 1965 membership.  Therefore the worst is indeed over, there is only another 49% left to lose.

“The worst is over.”  As pointed out in 3 above, it all depends on your perspective.

Along with the activities in Fort Worth, this is probably the beginning of the end of the large scale defections with the possible exception South Carolina.  So in that sense she may be right.

I expect TEC attendance numbers to continue to decline for a while as more moderate Christians slowly leave the rolls.  TEC may actually have a publicity boost in the (upcoming) Obama administration, since a couple of TEC churches in the area would provide a logical home for the family.  In any event, I believe TEC will end up as a small, very liberal national church with good music and disproportionately upper income clientele.

Going Home opined:

In any event, I believe TEC will end up as a small, very liberal national church with good music and disproportionately upper income clientele.

And a bitchin’ Coffee Hour - serving only the finest Fair Trade coffees and teas!

Heck…I’m already starting to feel sorry for the members of the Oven Mitt Manufacturer’s International Union.

What about churches closed by TEC itself?  There’s nine coming to the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota…

This woman is not of God and she has the blinders of sin tightly on. The saddest thing of all is that she is posing as a priest/bishop will be held to a harsher account one day. I pray for her soul and I pray for her conversion before that day comes.

I am no longer surprised at what comes out of her mouth. because what is in your heart comes out of ones mouth.

This woman is a dominator who mistakenly thinks she’s a “bishop.”  A pure figment of the imagination.

BTW, does anyone know how much longer it will take 815 to fudge the 2007 parochial reports?  Seems like they are usually ready with new numbers by Oct. 1st.

I agree tj, the worst is over, these are the death thrashes of the declining (current) TEC. I worry constantly that those who choose to remain will be subject to evermore stringent requirements of loyalty, giving and revised doctrine. TEC leadership has demonstrated that they will do anything, and say anything to achieve their goals. It doesn’t matter that they drive out the orthodox, because the orthodox don’t matter, and are an impediment to the goals. Future developments: seminaries will slowly close or convert to spirituality-based instruction for the rank and file. A few well-placed courses in spirituality and you too can be ordained. Gradually the entire hierarchy will be flattened, and the remaining clergy supported on the ongoing sales of empty properties. Look for consolidation of dioceses into regional entities with sub-bishop roles retained until retirement. It may take another 20 years or so, but in the end TEC will be nothing but retired clergy publishing nonsensical rubbish to support themselves, and trying to drive social agenda items with no constituency. Nothing remains in place to prevent this, short of a “palace coup”, which the HOB has shown will not happen. The numbers have been called repeatedly, and the orthodox and moderates are dwindling in size and influence. Unless God intervenes directly and drives out the current leadership, they will remain and their agenda will be followed. Those who are remaining because they intensely self-identify as Episcopals, will find that identity compromised - despite their efforts to cling to the label. I do not envy those who remain, and constantly lift them up before God in my prayers.

Tjmcmahon, since TEC refuses to admit that anyone has left them for other jurisdictions (that would be admitting defeat), don’t expect to see truthful figures anytime soon.  It can take years for a parish to comply with one’s written request to be removed from parish rolls.

The TEC will continue to weaken in membership.  Before long, there will be another divisive social issue that will become a new wedge issue that will drive away communicants.  Meanwhile the non-denominational churches will walk away with those who used to sit in our pews on Sunday morning.

There are several dioceses which have become so small and weakened financially that merging with another is becoming necessary. 

The problems are not over. One chapter in the saga leads to another.

I can’t resist one more comment.  KJS in April 2007 said:

The Episcopal Church’s presiding bishop on Wednesday downplayed the notion of a denominational schism over homosexuality, saying only a tiny fraction of congregations have moved to break away.

In an interview, Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori said the congregations had “gotten a lot of attention and been very noisy,” but accounted for less than 1 percent of the country’s total number of parishes, which she put at 7,500.

“The Episcopal Church is alive and well,” she said. Jefferts Schori was in Virginia Beach on Wednesday to speak at the Episcopal Communicators annual meeting at The Cavalier Hotel.

It was quotes like that which led to my sarcasm above “what crisis?”  So we’ve moved from a tiny fraction of congregations leaving, to 2 dioceses who have left, with 2 to follow… looks like the crisis is getting worse, not better.

#36 My dad shared with me something he read (wish I had the direct quote) - Jew, Muslims and Episcopalians each are less than 2% of the US Population, one of these groups does not think it’s a minority.

I thought it was a useful reminder of who’s “gotten a lot of attention and been very noisy.”

The reorganization of the Pittsburgh Diocese has begun, led by diocesan officials who chose to remain with the Episcopal Church, Jefferts Schori said. The breakaway congregations still occupy church property, and the denomination will reclaim it through the courts if necessary.

They will attempt to title all real property in the name of TEC dba the Pittsburgh Stealers.

A bit off-topic but a few months ago there was a thread collecting events, anecdotes, and general comments about the trajectory of the organziation over the past several decades.  Kate’s observations about salvation were part of that list.  I tried to find it yesterday but was not successful.  Can someone help me with a link or refresh the thread.  I think that would be a good one to keep current.

What I think significant about this is that she had been talking up the “vibrancy” of the denomination. Now, she is all of a sudden talking about a crisis in the past tense. Oops, Ms Schori has contradicted herself. Of course, none of us are surprised. I see the liberal institutionalists getting really worried. Enough for open rebellion? There were a lot of liberals that voted against the +Duncan “deposition.” The house of cards is going to be coming down.

#33 Masternav has totally nailed it.

#39 Nikolaus has a good suggestion.  Actually the trajectory thread and the heresy-log thread should be kept on the home page for quick access in responding to media items (quick links to send reporters or bloggers who are rubberstamping TEC spin).

Nikolaus - Is this what you seek?

Yes!  Thank you Hosea!

BUAAHAAHAHAHAHA LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLROFL!!!!!!!!
Methinks the PB has a sense of humor.  Did she really think that deposing Bishop Duncan (for all of about 5 mintues) was going to remove the “crisis”?  I have advocated repeatedly for the recognition of her intelligence, but I have nothing to say this time.  All I can say is WOW!

“Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori said she thinks the worst of the crisis in the denomination is over.”

Meanwhile…

Flounder: “May I have ten thousand marbles, please?”

Sure Katharine, you just tell yourself that.

This reminds me of those MASH episodes where they announced a cease-fire and everyone celebrates but a day later they are back to business as usual.

Crisis almost over?  What planet did she say she was from?

She means that she thinks they got away with it.

Is there an available code decryption ring for Primates, so we don’t have to keep relying on visits from friendlies to interpret?
: )

“Spiritual leader of the Episcopal Church”??? ROTFLOL!
She’s not even ordained!  Temporal CEO of TEC (TEO) maybe, but “spiritual leader”? ROTFLOL.
Dumb Sheep.

Piedmont #38:
As a staunch Philadelphia Eagles fan, it pains me to have to award you 2 groans and a hiss for your last line.
Well done.
Kirk

Jefferts Schori spoke of her grief about the Pittsburgh Diocese’s decision to leave because of disagreements with the church over biblical teachings about homosexuality and salvation…. She said:
“Arguing about fine details of theology isn’t the main reason for our existence.”

This is EXACTLY the problem.  KJS and much of TEC believe that the biblical teachings about salvation are peripheral.

Her central message is not the good news of Christ, but that

There is a parallel between the historic oppression of black people and the challenges that gays and lesbians face, she said.

Oh, and the MDGs too.  Almost forgot that one.  BTW, I wonder how many slaves would have agreed with her “parallel” comment.

Click Here for ALL IS WELL!

You have been eating too many shrimp Katherine, shrimp tend to warp ones thinking cause they kinda curl up and get warped when cooked. I suggest you lay off the shrimp and eat matza ball soup to settle your stomach. This boat is sinking and sinking fast - what is this crisis you speak of? its past and you never acknowledged it? was it a barracuda with lipstick that passed you bye or was it Bishop Bob?

“Grief,” my Aunt Fannie’s brogans!  Shame on her!

Assuming that common cause gets its act togther - I like the new website.  The worst will come when TEC has to directly compete with real competitor.  A lot of people relocate each year - if there comes a day when there is an orthodox church and a non orthodox one in most geographical areas the attrition will continue to increase among Episcopalians who move if for no other reason.  Also the ones left behind tend to breed at low rates or not at all - as the PB abtly put it.

“Arguing about fine details of theology isn’t the main reason for our existence.”

So, does that mean if I start worshipping a computer-generated lizard that I’m still Episcopal?

#46 Rob Eaton+
I don’t have a decoder ring but I did note this report from George Conger around the time of the attempted deposition of Bishop Duncan and the actual deposition of TEC’s canons.

I guess the Crisis is over when the best of the best has aleady left.  The PB needs to wake uoand smell the roses, or should say the Rose of Sharon?

The difference is in the understanding of ‘crisis.’  Conservatives consider the crisis a crisis of apostasy.  Liberals view the crisis as one of disunity - fed by conservative discontent.  From the later perspective, the worst of the crisis is almost past.  Most of the conservatives have left.  Those that remain will either be housebroken, or will leave themselves.  But the ideological fight for TEC is over and the liberals have won.  There will now be unity.  There will be order in the galaxy.

carl

“But the ideological fight for TEC is over and the liberals have won.  There will now be unity.  There will be order in the galaxy.”

#57 carl,
Unity & Order? Only until the money dries up and the empty buildings are sold off. Then the liberal revisionists will have their crisis!

[#58] One Day Closer

Order and Unity as in:

With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.

and

Katherine. You can destroy the Orthodoxy. They have foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and we can rule the galaxy as parental unit and carbon-based offspring.

As a wise bearded philosopher once said:

Terror must be maintained or the Empire is doomed. It is the logic of history. 

Mirror Spock
Stardate Unknown

But only for 243 more years, he added.

carl

Good one carl!

“There will be order in the galaxy”.

Yeah, and a mighty small galaxy it will be, too.  But it should at least have a lot of cash in the bank, if there’s anything left after all the lawsuits. 

Praise the lord, huh?! 

KJS did graduate from seminary.  The problem is she learned everything they had to teach her.  I wouldn’t bet she serves her whole term as PB, and would bet the organization she leads if she does will be far smaller and even more distilled weirdness than when she began.  A tall order, but she’s up to it.

Kate, you haven’t seen anything yet!

I for one am not sure Carl is right. I think there is about to be a fight between the moderates/soft left and the looney left.  I think the not so future same sex marriage rite will be the catalyst.  KJS and friends seem to have no self restraint - with no conservative conterbalance to contend with the gloves may really be off in ‘09.

I´ll have some of what KJS is smokin´.

Part of the problem with Kate Schori is the seminary she attended:  CDSP!  Anyone who knows anything about that wacky joint knows what I mean.  I was there, and I quit before my mind was saturated with their so-called “theological” views!