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Diocese Of Michigan Seeking Plan For Revitalization

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 • 8:53 pm


ENS

Faced with declining church attendance and dwindling income, the Diocese of Michigan is set to launch a plan aimed at revitalizing the “diocesan household.”  At the core of the plan is an effort to determine the best way to invest a remarkable resource to bring about growth and vitality:  the Extended Ministries Fund (EMF), which includes a bequest to the diocese given 15 years ago and worth more than $9 million today.

Delegates to Michigan’s 174th annual convention, meeting October 24-25 in Dearborn, will entertain a proposal from the Diocesan Council and the Extended Ministries Fund Task Force II that calls for spending up to $325,000 from the principal of the EMF to fund the first phase of planning for a project designed to promote ministry and growth.  A series of open forums leading up to convention got underway on October 8.

The task force has been at work since November 2007 soliciting input from people throughout the diocese “regarding the development of a plan for the best use of the EMF” and has completed statistical research on church attendance and giving trends. 

Facing stark realities
In its proposal, the task force notes that “the Episcopal Diocese of Michigan is in steep decline.” Charts included in the document reveal that average Sunday attendance has declined by 22% since 2000.  During the same time period “pledge and plate revenues” for all congregations combined has decreased by approximately $2 million, when adjusted for inflation.

The proposal also notes that since 1995, the annual diocesan budget has been dependent on a draw from the “appreciated value and investment income” of the EMF.  In 2007 that draw amounted to 36% of the revenue in the budget.  Tithes and offerings from congregations amounted to only 57% of the budget that same year.

The task force reported that the diocesan budget has been “cut substantially” over the past several years, including a reduction in staff.  It said it concurs with its predecessor body (the EMF Task Force I) that “further budget cuts would cripple diocesan operations irrevocably.”

“If we choose to take a hatchet to program, I believe we are admitting defeat, and we need to be honest and say so,” Bishop Wendell Gibbs told the diocesan council in September.

Hat/tip: T-19


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Comments:

Oh please the only way you are going to bring any energy to the renewal of The Diocese of Michigan is to turn back to the Lord Jesus Christ.  Start preaching His gospel of eternal salvation.  He will bless you if you tell the truth of the gospel.  People do not want to hear this bullcrap about social awareness, social justice, and social welfare. They want the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.

[1] Posted by BishopOfSaintJames on 10-15-2008 at 09:12 PM • top

It just strikes me as so odd, that the grand plan for saving the diocese is to inform people that the diocese is doing just fine. Rather than focusing on growing existing churches and planting new ones (which of course, are revenue generators for the diocese), they are focusing on building an endowment fund. I’m glad I still find these things odd, but it is kinda wierd that I find anything odd in TEC these days.

Yours in Christ,
jacob

[2] Posted by Jacobsladder on 10-15-2008 at 09:13 PM • top

Kinda self-consuming… like a candle.

[3] Posted by Gordy on 10-15-2008 at 09:18 PM • top

I am NOT an economics major, but….
if your finances are dependent on the interest from a fund, and then you start chipping away at the principal…
aren’t you killing the goose that laid the golden egg?
Jane, Edwin’s wife

[4] Posted by Edwin on 10-15-2008 at 09:20 PM • top

Yea Jane,

But what an omelet you’ll make!

~j

[5] Posted by Jacobsladder on 10-15-2008 at 09:29 PM • top

I am stunned by the originality of this proposal.  Who would have thought TEC could be so creative?

Specifically, the proposal for the first phase of the project has been designed to “listen, learn, analyze data and develop a second phase for action and implementation.”

And all for the low, low price of $325,000 if you call within the next 15 minutes.

... a proposal from the Diocesan Council and the Extended Ministries Fund Task Force II that calls for spending up to $325,000 from the principal of the EMF to fund the first phase of planning for a project designed to promote ministry and growth.

But not to worry.  This is a bold plan!

“This is a pretty bold plan to deal with a serious challenge that this diocese faces,” said David Clifford, a member of the task force and a parishioner at the Church of St. Clare of Assisi, Ann Arbor.

Yep, this is pretty bold alright.  They are going to boldly “listen”, “learn”, “analyze data”, and then try to figure out what to do next.  Of course the hard part is always ‘what to do next’ once you have finished listening, learning, and analyzing.  Perhaps they need a motto - “To Boldly Analyze Data that has never been Analyzed Before.”

Truly I think this is a good thing.  Dioceses will squander their capital in failed efforts to revitalize the <s>bureaucracy</s> ...umm…<s>serfs who fund the bureaucracy</s>..umm.. the church. They will squander their capital to keep themselves employed.  And when the capital is gone, the diocese will slowly capsize to starboard and slip unnoticed beneath the waves.  Thus will disappear yet one more instantiation of liberal religion.

carl

[6] Posted by carl on 10-15-2008 at 09:34 PM • top

Here’s a plan: preach the Gospel, teach biblical truth, obey Christ, keep the Lord’s commandments, love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbors as yourselves, be faithful, persevere, trust in God, deny yourselves and pick up your crosses daily, have all parishes offer Morning and Evening Prayer every day.  Things like that.  Give that a try.

[7] Posted by DaveW on 10-15-2008 at 09:35 PM • top

The Holy Spirit will not come where Jesus is not glorified. This is the bottom line problem with TEC. No (authentic) Jesus, no Holy Spirit, no church. Game over. Tilt. Spend all the money you want. Spin your wheels. Wait for Windsor or a covenant. Just stick a fork in it. And count me out.

[8] Posted by skramer on 10-15-2008 at 10:02 PM • top

and worth more than $9 million today.

Unless some amount of it is in stocks, bonds, mortgage backed securities, oil, other commodities, or real estate.  In which case, they may to reassess the plan.

[9] Posted by tjmcmahon on 10-15-2008 at 10:06 PM • top

I just recently spent 6.5 years in the Diocese of Michigan, so I know a little about this.
Here is the chart for EDOMI.  When you consider what has happened in TEC (ECUSA) since 2003, and take into account the devastating effect of the domestic auto industry death spiral ... these numbers are actually not at bad as I thought they would be.  Partially, I think this is because +Gibbs is less bad than his two immediate predecessors.

What is more interesting to me is the graph for the parish I left last October, St. John’s, Detroit.  St. John’s is one of only two 1928 Prayer Book parishes in the Diocese of Michigan.  The sharp upturn in 2001 and following was due to the arrival of a relatively young, traditionalist (Anglo-Catholic) priest, the revitalization of the area of downtown Detroit surrounding St. John’s, and ... well, of course, me and my family being there (LOL).

What the parish plot tells me is that even doing all the right things (such as in [1] and [7] above), the “Episcopal” brand-name on the church sign out front makes it like trying to swim in a lead overcoat.

I am extraordinarily happy that my family and I represent 4 tics off the red and blue curves for 2007, as well as an undisclosed amount off the green curve.

At our Annual Parish Meeting, in January of 2007, I was practically run out of town on a rail, simply for putting forth a Resolution that our Vestry study options outside of TEC.  St. John’s is very much the traditional parish, with all of the respected people of the parish having their heads deeply buried in the sand.  To them, all that mattered was that we had an orthodox priest.  “Let’s just continue to appease the bishop, and maybe he’ll let us keep the ‘28 BCP ...”  “What happens at the diocesan and national levels cannot affect us!” 

I think they are about to find out otherwise.

[10] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-15-2008 at 10:07 PM • top

ABP:  When I’m in Detroit on business, I try to visit the Mariner’s Church.

[11] Posted by Piedmont on 10-15-2008 at 10:25 PM • top

I can’t find it in the archives, but in May 2004, a transgender shaman/pagan priest and a witch were featured speakers at a conference partly sponsored by the Episcopal diocese of Michigan GLBT outreach group.  If my memory serves, the shaman was named M. Macha Nightmare.  After notice of this meeting surfaced, I checked the diocesan website every day leading up to the event, looking for a statement of dissociation or clarification.  Nothing. 
It’s a wonder that the ASA declined by only 22%.  With shenanigans like that, it should have been 78%.

[12] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 10-15-2008 at 10:28 PM • top

Here you go, Jill - it was in the old system and isn’t available to the blog’s internal search engine:

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/mt/archives/000190.html

It was actually the Diocese of Eastern Michigan.

[13] Posted by Greg Griffith on 10-15-2008 at 10:34 PM • top

I think the real star of the show was Raven Kaldera, granola pagan.

[14] Posted by Greg Griffith on 10-15-2008 at 10:35 PM • top

Ah—I had the wrong diocese.  I apologize.

[15] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 10-15-2008 at 10:47 PM • top

My comment here is not particular to this situation, but a general observation that members of this diocese may well want to consider.

Ok. that was the disclaimer.  Here is the thought.

Liberal ecclesial DNA & Declining Membership & Trust Funds = Perfect Storm.

Every now and again a parish actually manages to fund a revival of sorts, leading many to wonder if the answer to the decline is more spending on program, advertising, facilities, etc without examining the fundamental motivators of day to day decision making: the DNA of the parish/diocese.  You would think given the recent performance of the National Cathedral that this tactic might come under more intense examination; but then it is always easier to spend someone’s donation than to reflect on the appropriateness or effectiveness of one’s own core values. I expect that as the reality of the precipitous decline in membership of TEC hits home in dioceses we will see more of these plans, and that many diocese’s will spend through what trust funds they have hoping for the day when their “inspired” leadership will bear fruit.  To which all I can say is…

“good luck with that.”

[16] Posted by Ed McNeill on 10-16-2008 at 12:04 AM • top

Y’know, I am old enough to remember when 9 million dollars was a lot of money.  As tjmcmahon posted [9] ... are they sure it is still worth $9 million?  Have they checked the balance this week, I wonder?

[16]  Wise words, Ed McNeill, wise words!

[11]  Piedmont—I was a member of Mariners’ Church for 9 years (long story!).  Both of my children were baptized there.

[17] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-16-2008 at 05:27 AM • top

How does one go about getting hired to do the study? Seems to me that that is the place to be in the new episcopal church (I’m not a lawyer). After I do the first one I can market it (I mean my services - not just the report - I am sure there are different nuances in different parts of the country) to at least a few other diocese - probably for only 250k each. I’m semi serious here - how do I apply??? I can also do implementation and training.

[18] Posted by Paul PA on 10-16-2008 at 06:19 AM • top

the diocese will slowly capsize to starboard

Actually, it is listing to port, not starboard.

[19] Posted by AnglicanXn on 10-16-2008 at 07:07 AM • top

Paul PA, I assume you and I are thinking along the same lines: http://www.despair.com/consulting.html

[20] Posted by Fr. Andrew Gross on 10-16-2008 at 07:08 AM • top

Plan:  God’s way - the Church not culture -“ye cannot serve God and mammon”.  Tried for two millenia and successful before you jettisoned it.

[21] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 10-16-2008 at 07:54 AM • top

For those in Michigan, I can do this for far less. Can I submit a bid?

[22] Posted by Festivus on 10-16-2008 at 09:01 AM • top

Fr. Andrew.
I was thinking that this might be more appropriate.  Perhaps this could work as well.  Or maybe this.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

[23] Posted by Philip Snyder on 10-16-2008 at 09:14 AM • top

But, for the ultimate poster for EDoMI, I suggest this one.

Seriously, every person in the business world needs a calendar with these posters on it!

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

[24] Posted by Philip Snyder on 10-16-2008 at 09:23 AM • top

I will say, however, I missed my years as a Sunday School teacher in EDoMI ...

[25] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-16-2008 at 09:30 AM • top

That’s “miss” ... not “missed” ... [25]

[26] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-16-2008 at 09:30 AM • top

Diocese Of Michigan Seeking Plan For Revitalization

Boy, have I got a plan for you:
1. Get as far away from TECusaCorp as you can.
2. Build a big fence to make sure they don’t follow you.
3. Prosper.

the snarkster™

[27] Posted by the snarkster on 10-16-2008 at 09:37 AM • top

snarkster™  [27]

I pitched a toned-down version of that plan to the most traditional parish in the Diocese of Michigan (of which I was a member at that time), and I was booed ferociously.  Even the little old ladies of the congregation were mightily pissed off at me.

And that was at the best parish in the Diocese.

Failing to sell my plan, I executed a more personal version of it, by escaping, Noah-like, with my family.

[28] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-16-2008 at 09:41 AM • top

Good posters - however can’t one just be greedy on this site without all sorts of other things coming up . This is way different than the legal fees that the national church is spending - I can see the $$$. Look they are going to spend 325k meeting with people, looking at data and writing a paper - no need to actually get people to do anything - that will be a separate contract sometime in the future (and there is 8.7 million more to spend). In this economic environment I can go to a lot of meetings and spend a lot of time thinking/writing for that kind of money. Is the contract going to a crony or can I bid on it? They are spending endowment funds - surely there is some “openness” to the process. How does one get in on it?

[29] Posted by Paul PA on 10-16-2008 at 09:55 AM • top

Paul PA [29] ... I think they should let us expert Michigan consultants handle this!

I shall apply for a DBA for myself as Fahsaad Enteprises ... Helping Dioceses Display a Form of Godliness ... Since 2008!

Seriously, I am in the position to (at least!) give expert testimony, since I am someone who has left EDOMI because of the existing policies and practices.

[30] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-16-2008 at 10:03 AM • top

I really have to agree with #1 BishopofSaintJames! If they actually turned back to preaching the Gospel and putting the faith in the lord He will bless them with what they need to prosper. Maybe they need a Bile study on the Prayer of Jabez!

[31] Posted by TLDillon on 10-16-2008 at 10:08 AM • top

#10 Beach Party is correct on the attitude of most congregants,

“Let’s just continue to appease the bishop, and maybe he’ll let us keep the ‘28 BCP ...” “What happens at the diocesan and national levels cannot affect us!”

This is the effect of a quasi-hierarchal church. A false sense that you are protected by the liturgy and Church “politics” cannot possibly affect you. Hold on to your prayer books folks. Roll over Latimer, Ridley and Cranmer for change to the BCP is inevitable.

[32] Posted by Undergroundpewster on 10-16-2008 at 10:09 AM • top

Here is a link (PDF format) to The Record, the EDoMI Diocesan newspaper, which will give you an idea of what things look like from inside the Diocese of Michigan.

One of my favourite quotes, from the article on +Gibbs’ impressions of Lambeth 2008 (Page 12), was this:

Over 200 bishops boycotted the Lambeth Conference over their sense that the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada should be disciplined for actions with which they disagreed. Because of that disagreement, the secular media continued to focus on a shadow of schism that, for some, hung over the conference.

But Gibbs disagrees that the conference was defined by division and finds reasons for optimism about the state of the Anglican Communion. He said he is returning to Michigan with a renewed commitment to the worldwide Anglican Church (see Bishops’ Conversation, beginning on page 10a). 

“We are, in fact, engaged in a discussion about unity: How do we live together in the midst of our diversity?” said Gibbs. “Are there people here who disagree with things the Episcopal Church has done?  Yes. But my experience is that these issues are not communion-breaking issues for the people who are here.

(Emphasis mine.)

Umm ... yeah, sure, for the bishops who didn’t boycott Lambeth!

[33] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-16-2008 at 10:23 AM • top

Anglican Beach Party

It would be inappropriate for you to be paid to come back to the church before the report is written. However given the 9 million available I would consider the option of paying people to come to church a possible recommendation toward increasing ASA. This would be part of the implemantation phase. Thanks for your input - if I get the project I will give you footnote credit for the idea. I would suggest hiring ACORN to oversee this aspect of the project.

[34] Posted by Paul PA on 10-16-2008 at 10:24 AM • top

Philip, those are great posters. 

I once had a list of dates that were (in)famously relevant to the struggle within TEC and matched them up with the most relevant poster.

For instance February 20th read: “On this date in 2005, while attending the Primates meeting, PB Griswold preached a sermon at Belfast Cathedral and inquired ‘Are we perhaps being invited … to push off in a dusky little coracle upon the broad-bosomed glorious ocean?’”

The corresponding poster for February was this: http://www.despair.com/fear.html

I’m not sure if it’s worth the effort, but it might make a nice little fundraiser for SF.  The Despair.com website makes it pretty easy to make your own personalized calendars. 

The perfect Christmas gift from one reasserter to another….or for the ABC as a monthly reminder of where we’ve been, as his memory seems to get fuzzy now and then.

[35] Posted by Fr. Andrew Gross on 10-16-2008 at 10:45 AM • top

Let us not forget the TEC “leaders” that the Diocese of Michigan has produced include:

Kate Waynick
Bonnie Anderson
Herb Gunn

Ye shall know them by their fruits.

[36] Posted by Piedmont on 10-16-2008 at 10:49 AM • top

[36] LOL at

Ye shall know them by their fruits.

[37] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-16-2008 at 11:00 AM • top

Anglican Beach Party (#10),

You and I almost tripped over one another.  I had been considering St. John’s a few years back, when contemplating a job in the Detroit area.

[38] Posted by J Eppinga on 10-16-2008 at 11:05 AM • top

Regarding the study, I can think of one that can be done by a handful of layfolks in their spare time, and it wouldn’t cost more than a couple hundred bucks.  You normalize ASA against population for the last hundred years;  then you look at the years where the data noticeably changes.  Then you look to within a few years preceding the tics, and write down all the resolutions from GC.  From there, you ask an independent panel to select which of the resolutions could have been the cause. 

If the panel is revisionist, then they can look like buffoons, explaining a blip in terms of a change in the color of the hymnal;  or else vilifying fundamentalists who won’t submit to their tyranny;  or else blaming everything on General Motors.

[39] Posted by J Eppinga on 10-16-2008 at 11:16 AM • top

The diocesan “proposal” appears to me to be a deceptively worded scheme to take a little more than 3.5% of endowment principal and micturate it in the direction of gravitational attraction into a hollowed place in something solid. I presume that doing so would have one clear advantage over voiding the diocesan bladder to windward, to wit, it would perceptibly reduce the probability of the Diocesan Council and Task Force members soiling themselves in the process. grin

Just my 2¢ worth.

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[40] Posted by Militaris Artifex on 10-16-2008 at 12:12 PM • top

Diocese of Michigan Seeking Plan for Revitalization

Here’s a plan I read somewhere.  It is definitely not original with me.  But I have heard (and observed) that it has worked everywhere it has been sincerely tried:

1. “Go into all the world” (every town, street, house)
2. “Make disciples” (of everyone, even those of other religions or no religion at all).
3. “Baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” (not the creator, redeemer, and sanctifier, or some politically correct idol created by the culture, but God as He has revealed Himself in Holy Scripture.  Oh, and do this BEFORE you admit them to Holy Communion, so they understand the difference between their life before Christ and their life after they came to know Him whose atoning death is celebrated at the Altar.)
4.  “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you…” (ALL THINGS, like the power of prayer, life in the Holy Spirit, evangelism, biblical morality, etc.)
5. Where do we get the resources to do this?  “And, lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Cost in dollars: minimal.  Cost in commitment: total.

[41] Posted by ToAllTheWorld on 10-16-2008 at 10:02 PM • top

Dearest Paul AKA Anglican Beach Party -
Although your plan was not well received at the Annual Parish Meeting at St. John’s, you CERTAINLY were not run out on a rail!  Your plan was respectfully received, and disagreed with by many people who agree with you theologically (myself included) but not tactically. After that meeting you left for another parish for a short time and then you were warmly, lovingly, and honestly welcomed back into the parish for the next year and a half or two! 
And you would be welcomed back again. 
It’s that whole Christian Charity thing…..

[42] Posted by stjohnsrector on 10-17-2008 at 06:38 AM • top

As many know, I still attend the church that AnglicanBeachParty mentions in #28. In fact, I led the floor fight for APB’s resolution. He forgets the many “newbies” who hugged him and cried “Thank you!” after the meeting. To his credit, APB was stunned by the force of the passion against on the part of longtime parishioners, as I recall. We tabled the motion and appointed me, new to the Vestry that year, as watchman for the Vestry on these matters. It’s been painful and blunt.

Just today, St. John’s had its annual Homecoming Sunday. Our recessional hymn was “The Church’s One Foundation”, familiar to all of us. I was struck by the exceeding relevance of verse three:
Though with a scornful wonder, Men see her sore opressed,
By schisms rent usunder, By heresies distressed,
Yet saints their watch are keeping,
There cry goes up, ‘How long?’
And soon the bitter weeping Shall be the morn of song.

Yeah, I “wept” at the loss of a good Sunday School teacher and the missing of a best friend at church when APB left. Yet I appreciate the watch he keeps from afar in a continuing church and praise the day we worship in the same space again in this life or the next. As to my watch before the Vestry? APB’s voice haunts my thoughts as I compose a report each month exceptible both to him and those attending the meeting.

[43] Posted by nEpiscompoup on 10-19-2008 at 05:35 PM • top

RE: “To his credit, APB was stunned by the force of the passion against on the part of longtime parishioners, as I recall.”

I have found that it’s those whom one considers one’s natural allies in a parish and diocese whose ugliness is the most hurtful.

It’s not really a big deal to be dissed by revisionists . . . but conservative dissing really really stings.

[44] Posted by Sarah on 10-19-2008 at 06:11 PM • top

stjohnsrector [42]  ... Yes, I suppose it was hyperbole for me to say practically run out of town on a rail, but perhaps not as much as you think.  There were many parishioners who, on the morning of the Annual Parish Meeting in January, 2007, would not meet my gaze.  Even before the meeting, that is, because they had read my Resolution.  Some never looked me in the eyes again, but averted their glances whenever I came near them.  That was true, I mean, even after I briefly returned to St. John’s (which was less than 6 months, by the way).  Anyhow, what I’m saying is that, just by speaking up that day, I was placed permanently on the “enemies list” by some parishioners, if I was reading their body language correctly.

Thanks, nEpiscompoup [43] ... I feel the same sense of loss.  And, hey, it’s ABP not APB!

Thank you, too, Sarah [44] ... that is exactly right.

During the meeting in question, I said almost nothing after introducing the Resolution.  I let other people talk about it.  I think at least a dozen parishioners spoke against it, which was fine; that was their right.  But what was revealed to me about their thought patterns, as well as the kind of people they really were ... well, I was just taken aback.  I had assumed so many things about these folks which turned out to be totally incorrect.

[45] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-19-2008 at 06:53 PM • top

You are correct ABP! That was the least of my typos. And I appreciate what Sarah said and your response. However, it cuts both ways! How many discussions, emails, etc. did we have leading up to the resolution, in its aftermath, and since you have left where I have attempted to swallow the vitriol and hyperbole in the discussion? It stung that we were “natural allies” at each step. Now, I have to say, the vitriol is gone even as the hyperbole sometimes appears. Walking away v not walking away is the big connundrum of the life of an orthodox Anglican or Episcopalian. The last thing we should do is lash out at each other on each side of this divide. Especially when you consider the more offensive of your recent award winners!

[46] Posted by nEpiscompoup on 10-20-2008 at 04:49 AM • top

Thanks, nEpiscompoup, you are right, and I am sorry.

If anyone else is still following this thread, the “award winners” he refers to are here.

[47] Posted by Anglican Beach Party on 10-20-2008 at 05:24 AM • top

Relevant biblical passages:
Life begins in the wombGenesis 25:22, Hosea 12:3, Job 10:8-12, Job 31:5, Psalm 139:13-16, Psalm 51:5, Jerremiah 1:5, Matthew 1:18-20, Luke 1:39-44, Ecclesiasticus 1:14

God is Creator and Owner of all peopleGenesis 1:27, Psalm 100:3, Ezekiel 18:4, Isaiah 64:8, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

God has exclusive prerogatives over human life and deathDeuteronomy 32:39, 1 Samuel 2:6, Exodus 20:13, Genesis 9:5, Exodus 21:22-25, Hebrews 4:13

God hates the shedding of innocent bloodLeviticus 18:21, Leviticus 20:1-5, Deuteronomy 19:10, 2 Kings 24:2-4, Genesis 4:10, Psalm 72:12-14, Proverbs 6:16-19, Ezekiel 35:6

God has a special love for childrenMatthew 18:10, Luke 18:16, Matthew 18:14, Psalm 127:3-4

[48] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 10-20-2008 at 06:18 AM • top

Sorry, wrong thread.  Don’t know how that happened.

[49] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 10-20-2008 at 06:19 AM • top

ABP (47)
Thanks.  You’ve solved my Christmas shopping dilemmma.  Now I know what to get for all the Piskie bishops on my Christmas list.

[50] Posted by tjmcmahon on 10-20-2008 at 06:44 AM • top

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