Out with the pews, in with the people (only not)

“I probably have more in common with a Muslim sufi or (Zen Buddhist) Thich Nhat Hanh than I do with Sarah Palin,”

I don’t suppose it has occurred to him that what he needs is to have more in common with Christianity.

Naaahh…...

the snarkster™

Like growing numbers of Episcopal priests, he won’t say that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

This pretty much sums up ECUSA’s image nowadays.  This statement makes every fiber of my not too long ago ordained body physically hurt.  The worst part, however, is that this statement by this “humble priest” will probably be used as part of his promotional material when he stands for for bishop in the not so distant future.  It might even ensure his election.

Don’t think the reverend understands that the type of sustenance people require, and need most urgently during tough times, is that provided by the gospel of Jesus Christ.

No, he wants to feed them the thin gruel of no hope, equating “love” with baser nature, the lowest common denominator rationale that tells people that they are just flotsam and jetsom, and they should just get over it and roll with the tide.

Pathetic.  How blind and clueless can these people be?

Welcome to your local TEC social club! See the fine stonework and the intimate seating arrangements! Observe how the sunlight streams in through the archaic imagery on our fine stained glass windows. Is it not a fine edifice to gather in to chat and discuss things. Pay no attention to the crosses, except as an element of the overall design and aesthetic of our gathering space. See the discussion leader in the nice archaic robes and vestments. Sample our fine selection of comestibles at the Altar rail. We use a fine local port for the cup and our local pastry bakery supplies the biscuits as well. Enjoy, and do come back again!

Since Sir Gawain is choosing to shove Jesus in the broom closet, a better plan would be to yank all of the pews out. Add throw cushions, a jazz pianist, a full-service bar, and espresso cart.  Free booze and gourmet coffee is always successful. Some Episcopal churches have had success with needle exchanges, and dispensing condoms to hookers.

If they’d just remove all the pews, then they could say that every service is “standing room only”.

Is “Gawain de Leeuw” a real name?  Sounds like another piskie druid to me…

Maybe if they put in some recliners and a wide-screen TV…

“I probably have more in common with a Muslim sufi or (Zen Buddhist) Thich Nhat Hanh than I do with Sarah Palin.”

No “probably” about it, Buster.

Jesus first, Jesus last, Jesus always. He is all I need. Just give me Jesus.

I hear World Market has statues of Ganesh 20% off this week.  Wouldn’t break the budget of those 50-60 people to get their hands on one.  Hindus believe Ganesh is the god of removing obstacles….and those pews are certainly in the way of them being whatever it is they are trying to be….

Removing the pews and putting in a wide screen TV isn’t all bad. One of my old churches did it, and it worked well. Though admittedly, they did it partly because they needed to create space for extra seating to fit in the Sunday Morning congregation. (And I doubt very much that any of the presbyters there would have said such dross as “I probably have more in common with a Muslim sufi or (Zen Buddhist) Thich Nhat Hanh than I do with Sarah Palin.” I wonder if there is a connection between that and the vitality of the congregation ...)

During its heyday in the 1950s, St. Bart’s would get more than 1,000 people for Sunday services. Today, the church might see 50 or 60 people between the 8 a.m. and 10 a.m. services.

  From the sounds of that, I think you might have left the 2 front pews in, and taken out the rest.

to be a place where people on all sorts of spiritual quests can come for inspiration, sustenance in tough times, friendly conversation or a good debate.

To build on my point, if they were to remove the pews formally occupied by 940 people who no longer fill them, they would have room for a Starbucks and a small Barnes and Noble.  With the Starbucks upstairs in the nave, they would have plenty of room in the parish hall for a video game arcade to make the place more family friendly.

#14 tjmcmahon….I love your idea! I’m not always fond of the church coffee at coffee hour and if I didn’t feel too inspired by the sermon I could go find a good book and sit with my coffee and well….yeah! I think it’ll work!

This really is kind of depressing. In my youth, I participated as an acolyte in a service with more than 60 acolytes from several parishes and the cathedral.  (Ordinations in the Dio. of Chicago, maybe?  Visit by the AB of York?  I forget, we used to do some pretty big things in TEC in those days.  The incense thread has brought back fond memories.)

Trinity of Buffalo, New York, also believes we shouldn’t shove God down people’s throats. See their home page.  A few years ago, they took out their pews. Check out their 7PM service:
http://www.trinitybuffalo.org/worship/attending

I just checked on e-Bay and good high-quality used oak church pews are listed at $100 each.  If you take, on average, 18 pews out of each of the 7,055 remaining Episcopal churches, the Episcopalians could conceivably raise $12,699,000.00 which would be enough money to sue the Christians in 3 more departing Anglican dioceses for another 2 years.

A trip to the Laffin’ place for Chazaq.

As I pointed out on the other thread, one must take the 50-60 ASA with a grain of salt because the stat page shows the ASA to be at 65 and holding (absolutely constant) for the past three years as are the membership and P&P;income. Amazingly stable congregation.

OK, every time I post here these days, I walk smack into a parody.  Gawain de Leeuw?
Assuming he’s the real deal and not a Hey/Kennedy/Bruchi/Griffith creation…
#12 midwestnorwegian: Ganesh!  There was a great episode of the Simpsons where Homer is trying to disrupt a Hindu wedding.  He puts on this big elephant head and waddles into the ceremony, shouting “I am the god Ganesh!  This wedding displeases me!”  One of the guests points at him and yells (in an Indian dialect, with English subtitle), “That is not Ganesh!  Ganesh is graceful!”
Fitting epitaph for TEC syncretism.

At least they are trying to do something about decline.  One wishes them well.

I remember standing with my wife by the soccer field after one Sunday morning as I ticked off my shopping list for Home Depot. She asked me,“Say, honey, why don’t we go to church next Sunday? Remember last time we poked our head in the church door on a Sunday and then turned away because it looked like a museum? I hear they took the pews out so that it looks more open and inviting. I know I always feel more welcome in a building with more open space and fewer pews - like the mall!”
“Silly,” I gently admonished her. “I DID go to that church for a long time and I learned that church is more than a building - pews or not. In fact I learned that there are many ways to the divine - whether Jesus, the Dalai Lama, or Pocohantas. I learned to believe in evolution, pluralism and openess to people. I learned to celebrate our diversity. That is WHY we are here at the soccer field and then going to Home Depot. You see, honey, I learned I don’t need the church - I already have friends - I need to pursue the divine in the everyday - here with you - and Home Depot.”

Like growing numbers of Episcopal priests, he won’t say that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

I’m guessing that had the apostles taken this position and were it the truth, we wouldn’t be discussing this since there would be no Christians.  Wonder if St. Bart’s is mostly empty of people because it is empty of truth and hope?

De Leeuw believes that a welcoming and energetic church should be able to provide a home for a few thousand people looking for an open-minded, tolerant form of Christian worship.

“I probably have more in common with a Muslim sufi or (Zen Buddhist) Thich Nhat Hanh than I do with Sarah Palin,” he said. “I believe that this area could support a progressive church that believes in evolution and pluralism and openness toward people.”

That would be openness and tolerant and pluralistic towards people, but not to Sarah Palin.

“We have to be completely open to people asking questions, and we have to have good answers.”

“I hate their theology and their politics. . .

Paraphrase: we should be radically welcome and completely open, to people that we don’t hate.

“At first we thought they were rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic,” said Fitts, 43, who is trained as a social worker.

No, They’re not rearranging the chairs.  They’re trying to sell them to passing ships.

But his more reasonable, if still lofty, goal is 600 families.

If that’s his goal, why did he try to sell the pews on craigslist? Won’t he need them?

He tried to sell the pews on Craig’s list?

Showing the way is de Leeuw, 39, who is working toward a doctorate in “congregational development” from Seabury-Western Theological Seminary in Evanston, Ill. In other words. . .

from here

Seabury-Western Theological Seminary, one of 11 schools in the U.S. dedicated to preparing Episcopal priests, told tenured faculty on Thursday that their jobs would end next year.

In other words, he’s gone to the place that can’t fill its own buildings for help on how to fill his.  Good luck with that!

If you think of pews a deck chairs on the Titanic it all really makes sense.

#4, speaking of ‘fine comestibles’ at the altar rail, I remember an Anglo Catholic parish in times past that used Liebfraumilch for feasts of the Blessed Virgin!  How much higher can you get!

And generally, many Eastern Orthodox churches have removed pews of times past, but the people aren’t packed like sardines, except at Easter.
Jim of Olym

#4, speaking of ‘fine comestibles’ at the altar rail, I remember an Anglo Catholic parish in times past that used Liebfraumilch for feasts of the Blessed Virgin!  How much higher can you get!
“I probably have more in common with a Muslim sufi or (Zen Buddhist) Thich Nhat Hanh than I do with Sarah Palin,” he said.
I say, that Muslim sufi or Zen Buddhist wouldn’t feel they had much in common with him.
And generally, many Eastern Orthodox churches have removed pews of times past, but the people aren’t packed like sardines, except at Easter.
Jim of Olym

We got pews. We got kneelers. We use them. We kneel at the altar rail when we eat His flesh and drink His blood. He would allow us to stand but we feel kneeling in thanksgiving for His love and in recognition of His deity is not a bad thing. So sue us.
AP+ at Holy Cross.

If that’s his goal, why did he try to sell the pews on craigslist?

If they let the thurible go at a reasonable price, will someone please email me?  I’ve been inspired by the incense thread.

#17   Trinity, Buffalo

Joining Worship

All are welcome to join and participate in any of the services held at Trinity. During special times in the year there are additional services, but every Sunday there is an early morning traditional service, a later morning blended service, and an evening encounter with God.

Traditional
8:30a.m. Sunday we use the Rite II Communion from The Book of Common Prayer (BCP). Rite II = Traditional?? The BCP offers contemporary versions of prayers and elements of worship that have been used since the very first generations after Jesus. To The Episcopal Prayer Book we add organ music and vocal solo as well as an occasional hymn for this intimate congregation to sing.

Blended
10:30a.m. Sunday we employ the skeleton (got that right!) of ancient Christian worship as outlined in the BCP but we use the contemporary texts of prayers from all over the world (New Zealand, Tanzania, Kenya, El Salvador, Scotland and Canada to name a few). In addition to two readings from the Bible (an Old Testament and Gospel appointed by The Revised Common Lectionary), we add contemporary and often secular poetry and prose that compliments the theme of the other readings. The soundtrack soundtrack?? for worship is every bit as important as the soundtrack to a movie and we feature some of the best musicians in Western New York. Our pipe organ and organist, Paul Cena, are second to none and provide a comfortable sense of continuity with generations past. To the organ we add a piano ensemble that may feature brass, percussion or strings depending on the mood. Krista Seddon, one of Buffalo’s premier jazz and classical pianists, is our ensemble leader. The Trinity choir under the leadership of Barbara Cooper can sing a Negro spiritual, Gospel Rock and a Bach Cantata with the same amazing quality and it is not unusual for the congregation to break out in spontaneous applause when they do. Every season finds a new theme and focus of the worship but it always feels like a deeply authentic expression of 21st century spirituality.

this intimate congregation translates to “the handful of people who show up”? 
This whole thing sounds like a PR leaflet for a theater or choral group, not something about a church.  “deeply authentic expression of 21st century spirituality”?  bring me a basin.  They make me want to print up a bunch of t-shirts that say “Jesus: More than an expletive.”

BLECH!!!!!

Well, this makes perfect sense.  If you can’t put the butts in the seats, remove some seats.  Makes the remaining butts look crowded.  The ratio (butts/seats) increases, tho the method is faulty.  As someone has noticed, Eastern Churches have never had pews, and unless threatened with death from Muslims or Communists (and even in spite of them) the places have always been pretty crowded.  Fr. Gawain is a piece of work.  A while back I pointed out on his blog that ECUSA was Modalist in it’s trinitarian bumbling, showing him the area of the national website (it has since been removed out of embarassment) to show it.  He replied (MA in theology, mid you) that it *was* Modalist, but that’s because it was in English!  He’ll have more pews to remove before the lights go out in that place.