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Presiding Bishop Statement On Diocese Of Quincy Departure

Saturday, November 8, 2008 • 11:17 am


Clarity and Charity.  As if.

We lament the departure from The Episcopal Church of some individuals in southern Illinois.  The Episcopal Diocese of Quincy remains, albeit with fewer members, and we are working to assist in the reorganization of diocesan affairs.  We assure all, both Episcopalians and former Episcopalians, and members of their surrounding communities, of our prayers for clarity and charity in their spiritual journeys.  May all be reminded that the gospel work of healing this world will take the best efforts of every person of faith.


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Comments:

Pure Lewis Carroll.

[1] Posted by Tom Roberts on 11-08-2008 at 11:32 AM • top

We assure all, both Episcopalians and former Episcopalians, and members of their surrounding communities, of our prayers for clarity and charity in their spiritual journeys.

Translation: The army of lawyers is en route.

[2] Posted by bigjimintx on 11-08-2008 at 11:32 AM • top

She needs to get a new speech writer. This is transparently mendacious.

[3] Posted by A Senior Priest on 11-08-2008 at 11:36 AM • top

Peoria is not in southern Illinois although it is “downstate” from Chicago.

[4] Posted by Piedmont on 11-08-2008 at 11:37 AM • top

Spin, spin, spin…..

It’s the mind over matter principle. She doesn’t mind because the orthodox don’t matter.

Freedom isn’t cheap but always worth the price.  Welcome aboard, Quincy!

[5] Posted by Kale on 11-08-2008 at 11:42 AM • top

Piedmont, I was going to say the same thing.  The diocesan site (dioceseofquincy.org) correctly identifies it as the “western portion of Central Illinois”.

[6] Posted by railfan on 11-08-2008 at 11:46 AM • top

Now we need more dioceses to follow…the time is here, the critical mass has developing…if dioceses don’t go with these faithful leaders they will never again have the strength and momentum to accomplish the mission…all the strong voices are departing and the weak leadership that remains will never have the courage to move in this direction again….it is a kairos moment… the new province awaits…Mark Lawrence will not be able to do it all by himself next year….now it the time.

[7] Posted by Caleb on 11-08-2008 at 11:46 AM • top

Caleb, Fort Worth will vote to leave next week, and it won’t surprise me to learn that South Carolina could be the next diocese to leave.  Look for at least one diocese in the midwest to begin the process as well.  Personally, I don’t think they’ll wait until after TEC’s next General Convention.  I also think that other dioceses with a significant number of conservatives will divide, and more parishes will leave before their General Convention.  It is not over….not by a LONG shot!

[8] Posted by Cennydd on 11-08-2008 at 12:06 PM • top

I saw the vote totals last evening - 14 clergy voted “no” to the amendment to leave ECUSA.  Does anyone know how many parishes this represents?  How many, if any, of these 14, are rectors?  Are there some parishes that want to stay?  In other words, about how big is the “rump diocese”?

[9] Posted by AnglicanXn on 11-08-2008 at 12:06 PM • top

Dear PB,

Might as put the message on a rubber stamp.  You’re gonna get to use it a lot in the future.

[10] Posted by Capt. Father Warren on 11-08-2008 at 12:14 PM • top

Sadly, the PB does not understand that it was a diocese that left the EC and not just some individuals.  It takes a diocese to form and request to join.  Likewise, the diocese can decide to leave.  This is the weakness of the Constitution and Canons of the EC and something the PB and Chancellor will do everything they can to fix at GC09.

If other dioceses are going to leave, they best do so sooner than later before the window of opportunity is closed…..

Lord have mercy,

[11] Posted by Creighton+ on 11-08-2008 at 12:18 PM • top

From: ++Katharine Jefferts Schori
Date:_______________________

We lament the departure from The Episcopal Church of some individuals in ___________________. The Episcopal Diocese of ________________ remains, albeit with fewer members, and we are working to assist in the reorganization of diocesan affairs. We assure all, both Episcopalians and former Episcopalians, and members of their surrounding communities, of our prayers for clarity and charity in their spiritual journeys. May all be reminded that the gospel work of healing this world will take the best efforts of every person of faith.
**********************************************************************

Check it out ++Kate. This will save you a lot of time and trouble. Just fill in the blanks and you won’t have to compose a brand new statement every time a diocese bails on you.

the snarkster™

[12] Posted by the snarkster on 11-08-2008 at 12:19 PM • top

As I pointed out over on the Quincy thread, the diocese will be much more difficult to sue, since TEC doesn’t know where it is.  The fellas down in Harrisburg and Benton and Cairo are gonna have all kinds of fun with the New York lawyers who show up looking for the Cathedral in Quincy.
“Well, sir, let me see….go down the road here about 2 miles and just past the Baptist Church and then take a left and you drive until you get to Clyde’s Corners, the corner where Clyde’s gas station used to be before Clyde retired and went to Florida- if you get all the way to Dogwalk, you went too far and need to turn around.  Anyway, at Clyde’s you turn left again, and follow the dirt road, if it ain’t washed out, for 45 miles til you get to a big levee.  And I mean real big.  Then you turn right on the road there, and just keep going about 6 hours til you get to Peoria, and you can get directions from there.  Or, ‘course you could just get back on the Interstate, head back to Chicago, and try again.”

[13] Posted by tjmcmahon on 11-08-2008 at 12:23 PM • top

#12 Snarkster:
I feel deprived. I didn’t get one of her greeting cards when I left TEO the day after GCon06 ended.  Of course I was an individual, not a diocese.  But anyway, it would have been nice of her to acknowledge my departure.
Dumb Sheep.

[14] Posted by dumb sheep on 11-08-2008 at 12:27 PM • top

#14,
Someone in the office at 815 must have messed up the paperwork if they neglected to bill you for the unpaid balance of your pledge.

[15] Posted by tjmcmahon on 11-08-2008 at 12:37 PM • top

This is the weakness of the Constitution and Canons of the EC and something the PB and Chancellor will do everything they can to fix at GC09.

The good news is, Creighton+, that even if they amend their constitution and cannons to specifically say “dioceses may join but they may not leave” the courts may simply not accept it as legal. That whole, “once your in, your in for life” thing doesn’t go over so well in the Courts of Law.

But even if that works, it may be worth finding other paperwork paths to take to achieve the same effect. Since all we are talking about is paperwork anyway, and there are millions of ways of doing the same thing on paper, it’ll happen one way or antoher.

Yours in Christ,
jacob

[16] Posted by Jacobsladder on 11-08-2008 at 12:43 PM • top

As Pittsburgh did, I would hold on to the name “Episcopal diocese of Quincy.” This is a bargaining chip, albeit a small one. But this could prevent 815 from playing games with website URL’s, etc.

[17] Posted by robroy on 11-08-2008 at 12:45 PM • top

This being a small diocese in the first place, I presume the remaining Episcopalians could fit in a large room - something to think about when the legal team gets fired up.  Besides, I don’t think there are hotels and restaurants in Quincy that meet David Booth Beers’ $800/hour (or whatever obscene rate he bills) standards.

[18] Posted by Phil on 11-08-2008 at 01:04 PM • top

I think that Quincy really poses a dilemma for the PB. The executive council and HoBD are on record virtually persecuting the diocese and its bishop for years.  Does she really want every quote from every TEC official denouncing Quincy and telling them to leave, that has come out of someone’s mouth in the last 15 years, read in open court?  Then, there is the problem that Quincy made its accession to TEC conditional in 1993.  Be difficult to make the case since TEC has not challenged that very public diocesan action in the intervening 15 years.
  And then there will be the difficulty in deposing Bp. Ackerman.  Not that she couldn’t do it- after all, she would only need about 38 votes under her “rules.” And I am sure she can trump up a charge.  It is difficult to imagine that he will worry too much about TEC’s permission to confirm or ordain someone (for which they deposed Bishop Cox). But can you imagine the outrage in the Communion if she does?  Can you imagine the FiF response, and what it would have to say about the orders of any bishop to vote to depose? By all accounts I have ever read, +Keith Ackerman is not only widely respected by Anglican bishops worldwide, but by bishops, priests and laymen throughout Christendom.  One wonders if it might not be enough to elicit a public comment from ++Cantaur.

[19] Posted by tjmcmahon on 11-08-2008 at 01:05 PM • top

If he hasn’t said anything about this latest news by now, I don’t think he ever will.

[20] Posted by Cennydd on 11-08-2008 at 01:28 PM • top

I love it—SHE DOESN’T EVEN KNOW WHERE THE DIOCESE OF QUINCY IS!!!!

[21] Posted by Jason Miller on 11-08-2008 at 02:19 PM • top

As entire diocese leave, 815 never considers that the course of TEC could be wrong, and that Integrity has sold them a bill of goods that Christians and non Christians alike vote down every time the issue comes up.

The only way to justify the Integrity agenda is to totally gut the theology of the church, passed down through the ages.

[22] Posted by Paul B on 11-08-2008 at 02:35 PM • top

Well, except for a few spots like Chicago, Illinois is “fly-over country.”  The territory covered by Quincy is known as “Forgotonia” in the political world.

[23] Posted by Nikolaus on 11-08-2008 at 02:52 PM • top

Paul, TEC’s “theology?”  WHAT theology?  Surely not one having to do with the belief in Christ as THE Son of God!

[24] Posted by Cennydd on 11-08-2008 at 03:30 PM • top

Hey, CNN reported correctly this afternoon, they stated that the diocese of Quincy in Illinois had left the Episcopal Church.. then went on it refer to it as the third that had done so. Not really anything else was stated.

[25] Posted by mari on 11-08-2008 at 03:49 PM • top

We lament the departure from The Episcopal Church of some individuals in southern Illinois.

As Bugs Bunny would say, “What a maroon!”  This is like writing to San Joaquin and calling it Northern California.

In the city of Quincy, the local Roman Catholic Diocese made three churches redundant in the last few years.  All three properties are still on the market, with one very attractive property listed for $50,000.  (Yes, you read that correctly.)  Most vacant church buildings in this part of the country simply don’t sell.  They sit empty for years.  This is one place where, if 815 decides to sue for the property, they can pay all the legal fees they want and look forward to $0.00 return.

[26] Posted by ToAllTheWorld on 11-08-2008 at 03:53 PM • top

Clarity: You’ll be defendants in a lawsuit.

Charity: $$$ to a phoney-baloney rump diocese soon to follow.

[27] Posted by Sparky on 11-08-2008 at 03:56 PM • top

#26,
If there are 3 RC churches on the market at those prices, it seems in the worst case scenario, no one will be without a building for very long, even if TEC is successful in seizing property, legally or otherwise.

[28] Posted by tjmcmahon on 11-08-2008 at 04:15 PM • top

This gives another place for Mrs. Shori and company to spend a bundle of dead men’s gifts of cash to play “let’s pretend all is well” while those on the local ground struggle to play her game of saving face in the face of sure and certain defeat.  God will not be mocked.  The sooner Mrs. Shori comes to realize it and resigns, the sooner the Christians left in the Episcopal Organization can get on with the business of being faithful to the Great Commission.

[29] Posted by David+ on 11-08-2008 at 05:36 PM • top

Let me call attention to the last line of the PB’s press release, which is so very revealing.  It’s hardly news, but no one has commented on it yet on this thread.  And it shows all too clearly just why this whole crisis keeps getting worse and worse.  That is, that last line once again displays that ++KJS is a universalist and a relativist who has rejected the culturally unacceptable idea that sslvation is only available through faith in Jesus Christ.  Did you catch it?

“May all be reminded that the gospel work of healing this world will take the best efforts of every person of faith.”

It could hardly be any clearer, could it?  This is further proof that this whole dispute isn’t just over homosexuality, it’s over the fact that two rival and mutually exclusive understandings of the gospel are contending for the soul of Anglicanism.  The self-deceived PB equates “gospel work” with healing the divisions among people (i.e., a purely horizontal reconciliation, and even that is a fake one), leaving the reconciliation of lost, fallen sinners with a holy God completely out of the picture (the vertical kind of reconciliation Paul speaks of so movingly in 2 Cor. 5:18-21).  And she thus invokes the PC idea that such human reconciliation will take the best efforts of “every person of faith.”  Not of all persons of Christian faith, mind you, but of every person of faith, in generic terms, whether it be the Islamic faith, the Buddhist faith, or just faith in faith.

Obviously, this kind of public statement is aimed at a secular audience that shares her assumption that “it doesn’t matter what you believe, as long as you’re sincere and you don’t try to push in anybody else.”  It certainly isn’t intended as a conciliatory gesture toward those who have just left TEC

There isn’t the slightest sign here of any real grief on her part over their departure.  She begins, “We lament the departure…”  Yeah, right.  There is no trace of real lament in her statement whatsoever.

Once again, it leaves me confirmed in my view that it’s really very easy to tell when the PB is lying.  If her lips are moving, or if her office releases any statement in her name, she’s lying.  Simple as that.

David Handy+

[30] Posted by New Reformation Advocate on 11-08-2008 at 06:05 PM • top

A brief note to my Bishop—The Right Reverend Mark J. Lawrence:  It is not a sin to be a follower.  Indeed, there are rewards awaiting us when we truly follow the Holy Scriptures.  IT’S TIME TO GO!!  Let’s join the others who have the true faith.

[31] Posted by adamsmith on 11-08-2008 at 06:11 PM • top

KJS will bankrupt them…one of Booth Beers’ tactics is to sue people individually so you have a number of different people or catagories lawyering up at a $150,000 each…and if you look carefully at the mandated church insurance company policy each parish and diocese has…it excludes coverage for leaving TEC

[32] Posted by Caleb on 11-08-2008 at 06:12 PM • top

Rubber stamp tripe from Black Bart.
Shalom,
Intercessor

[33] Posted by Intercessor on 11-08-2008 at 06:26 PM • top

It occurs to me, after reading and listening to statements and interviews by the PB, that there seems to be a flatness, a detachment and a total lack of any kind of emotion that comes through. I suppose that’s because she was a scientist, but it’s still kind of creepy.

[34] Posted by ElaineF. on 11-08-2008 at 07:04 PM • top

“Creepy” is right!  This woman comes across as and emotionless as a shark stalking its prey.  No feeling, no compassion, and above all, all business!

[35] Posted by Cennydd on 11-08-2008 at 07:28 PM • top

#34. Hey!!! I’m a scientist and my affect is NOT flat. If she’s creepy it’s for other reasons.

monika

[36] Posted by monika on 11-08-2008 at 08:26 PM • top

Word to Tom Breidenthal, bishop of southern Ohio.  Hey Tom, remember the church and property you stole from us in December 07?  Give it back to us and we might just have a job opening for you when your organization tanks.

[37] Posted by The Templar on 11-08-2008 at 09:27 PM • top

#32 - “and if you look carefully at the mandated church insurance company policy each parish and diocese has…it excludes coverage for leaving TEC

This has very recently been proven to be untrue.  Thank God.

bb

[38] Posted by BabyBlue on 11-08-2008 at 09:39 PM • top

I can think of another organization that ‘if you are in, you are in for life.’ It is even reputed to have members in East St. Louis and Chicago. It is not exactly a Christian organization, though.

[39] Posted by rkreed on 11-08-2008 at 10:01 PM • top

I think it is a common misconception that TEC churches and dioceses have to be insured through the Church Insurance Companies (part of TEC’s Church Pension Group).  I know several parishes and dioceses that have switched to Church Mutual Insurance http://www.churchmutual.com/ (no relation to the Episcopal Church) and got better rates and better coverage.  And there are are, of course, other good companies out there.

In my opinion, anyone contemplating leaving TEC would be wise to look into other insurance options.  Also, individuals need to realize that they can obtain personal indemnity insurance (covering lawsuits arizing from a person’s role in serving on a board of a non-profit organization, etc.), usually bundled with some other type of insurance they may already have, such as homeowner’s insurance.  If I were on a vestry or in congregational or diocesan leadership, I would make certain I had that taken care of.

The above is not intended as professional or legal advice, merely an observation from my own experience.

[40] Posted by ToAllTheWorld on 11-08-2008 at 10:48 PM • top

And, remember from another article on this site, who is on the Board of the Church Pension Fund?

Remember the money the Church Pension Fund gave the Property Task Force?

Free advice to the Church Pension Fund—don’t be emboldened by the aggresive 815 legal strategy.  Don’t even think about changing the treatment or eligibility on behalf of the the hard earned contributions made on behalf of former Episcopal Priests, Deacons and Bishops.  That would be a very expensive decision.

[41] Posted by Going Home on 11-08-2008 at 11:45 PM • top

adamsmith,
Sorry to tell ya but , I don’t think your Bishop, +Mark J. Lawrence, will never leave TEC. He, ;ike Sarah & Fr. Dan Martins, are in on the inside strategy!

[42] Posted by TLDillon on 11-09-2008 at 12:21 AM • top

[12] snarkster,

In addition to your suggestion at the referenced comment and your observation

This will save you a lot of time and trouble.

Even more time and trouble can then be saved, presuming 815 uses MS Word, by linking the letter to a listing of all of the State names and Diocesan names, and allowing a complete set of letters to be produced by means of one keystroke. Ahhh, the efficiencies that are possible. They might even save sufficient time that they can use to think up a few more uniquely worded press releases to cover for the failed prediction that the bleeding is about to stop. wink

Blessings and regards,
Martial Artist

[43] Posted by Militaris Artifex on 11-09-2008 at 12:29 AM • top

This has very recently been proven to be untrue.  Thank God.

bb

So I take it there was a recent positive resolution to action taken by Truro by your comment?

[44] Posted by Hosea6:6 on 11-09-2008 at 12:34 AM • top

Elaine,
She’s practicing “non-anxious presence” (remember “shalom”?), and she’s very good at it.

[45] Posted by Rob Eaton+ on 11-09-2008 at 02:04 AM • top

adamsmith,
You must have missed the memo:
Some are called to be in TECUSA, some are called to be in some other part of the Body of Christ (there is a Christian world outside of Anglicanism), and some TECUSANS are called to withdraw.

[46] Posted by Rob Eaton+ on 11-09-2008 at 02:10 AM • top

I once thought the Inside Strategy had a chance of working, too.  It hasn’t worked, it isn’t working now, and what’s more, it never will work!

[47] Posted by Cennydd on 11-09-2008 at 10:37 AM • top

#17
The Diocese of Quincy has always and only been that: The Diocese of Quincy.  It has never, since 1877 been anything other than that and has never had the name Episcopal in their name.  This could help them as well.

[48] Posted by Dallas Priest on 11-09-2008 at 10:59 AM • top

I was baptized in the old St. Paul’s Cathedral in downtown Peoria.  (BTW Peoria has been the see city for a long time.)  I owe my Anglo Catholicism to my mother’s lifetime involvement with that Godly Diocese.  Her requiem was at St. Andrew’s, Peoria, which looks a lot more like a church than the tractor-factory-like cathedral on War Memorial Drive.

God bless them for the courage they have shown.

[49] Posted by Long Gone Anglo Catholic on 11-09-2008 at 11:23 AM • top

Fr. Rob….I am still trying to comprehend how good fruit can be produced from a bad tree and certainly TEc is a very bad tree! I have know doubt that there was good fruit on the TEc tree for many decades but the tree has been taken over by a very bad fertilizer that has attacked its roots and produced a deadly vine that is consuming the TEc tree and I fear that any goo fruit that is still left on the tree with eventually whither and die or be consumed by the deadly vine and become part of the corrupted tree.

[50] Posted by TLDillon on 11-09-2008 at 11:34 AM • top

adamsmith, ODC-
We may have made decisions for ourselves that have taken (or soon will take) us out of TEC.  But those who stay to provide a light in the darkness of that church need our prayers.  It is easy enough to see a future in which there is a formal breakdown of Communion within TEC.  While it informally exists already- in no real sense is the bishop of New Hampshire in communion with the bishop of South Carolina.  And there exist breakdowns in communion between parishes and their own bishops.  The result of trying to force ungodly revisions on the faithful.
It is a blessing that there are those deacons, priests and bishops who offer guidance to the faithful still within TEC, and who stand as beacons for others within that church. The true, catholic church is not determined by denomination- by whether one self identifies first as an Episcopalian or an Anglican or a Catholic.  In too many places today, the local Episcopal Church gathered to be the Episcopal Church.  But in those places where it gathered to be the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, submitting to our Savior, then it was the Church- capital C- even if it still said “Episcopal” on the door.

[51] Posted by tjmcmahon on 11-09-2008 at 12:12 PM • top

Tractor factory Long Gone?  The bare building itself may be a box but it serves as the perfect backdrop for some of the finest examples of contemporary eccelsiastical art in the country.  Christ bursting forth from the bonds of Death on the Tabernacle door, the Crown of Thorns in the carpet that surrounds the sanctuary, and the symbolism of the Cross over the altar reflecting both the Crucifixion and Resurrection all show true artistic insight.  Even the traditional pieces work well in the setting. 

*Rant off…apology on…*  Sorry Long Gone but, like you I was baptized downtown before the parish moved but have no recollection of the place.  I still have family there.  Much as I would prefer traditional church architecture, I have a soft spot for “Tall Paul.”

[52] Posted by Nikolaus on 11-09-2008 at 12:59 PM • top

To #43
What’s the inside strategy? Surely you don’t think true believers can take over TECUSA.

[53] Posted by adamsmith on 11-09-2008 at 06:17 PM • top

adamsmith,

The “Inside Strategy” are those who are Traditional Orthodox Conservative Christians who have chosen to stay in TEc and continue to be a voice for orthodoxy and to be a witness to those who have are of like mind but have a stronger tie to Institution that is TEc. In other words they were born into, baptized into, confirmed into, married into, have relatives that are buried into TEc and will not leave no matter what. And, “NO”, I do not think that true believers can take over TEc!

Anyone else who might want to elaborate further feel free to do so.

[54] Posted by TLDillon on 11-09-2008 at 07:50 PM • top

The people who are fighting from the “inside” have to have a stronger faith than those of us who have left or are in the process of leaving.  They need our prayers and good wishes.

[55] Posted by terrafirma on 11-09-2008 at 09:09 PM • top

Bishop Donald Parsons, 6th Bishop of Quincy and one time Dean of Nashotah House gave one of the most pastoral sermons on Saturday morning regarding how we are to treat one another in this time of division.  Outstanding.  I was blessed to be close enough to the pulpit to get it in a digital format.  Bishop Ackerman also gave a marvelous address on Friday before the vote for the Diocese to leave.  (Not individuals Hurricane Kate and David “John Wilkes Booth” Beers.)  Quincy is blessed to have three of the finest living retired Bishops.

It was a true blessing to be back in the former Cathedral of the Diocese and the Historic Mother Church after it was rebuilt after the devastating fire in 2002 when it was struck by lightning.  Truly one of the most beautiful in all of the Midwest with a marvelous organ.  If you go see Mark Twain’s cave in Hannibal, Mo, go across the Mississippi and see Saint John’s Church at 7th and Hampshire in Quincy.  You will be glad you did.

[56] Posted by Dallas Priest on 11-10-2008 at 12:30 AM • top

A modest proposal:
Regarding #26 (vacant RC churches). It is fairly expensive to maintain vacant church buildings. I wonder if the RC Diocese might not simply deed those edifices to the Quincy Episcopalians who could then, in turn, give their empty buildings to TEC for maintenance.

[57] Posted by Mark J. on 11-10-2008 at 11:17 AM • top

Mark J, I think you’d need to convince Rome to allow it first.  I think they have a “thing” about giving one of their churches to a “non-Catholic” church.  Seems like they’d rather give it to be used as a performing arts center, as they did here in Los Banos, CA.

[58] Posted by Cennydd on 11-10-2008 at 11:37 AM • top

Cennydd - of course. My proposal was too swift!

[59] Posted by Mark J. on 11-10-2008 at 11:53 AM • top

Interesting cennydd! So the RC will not sale or deed over to another church that is not RC just like TEc will not sale their churches to an Anglican congregation but will sale it to anyone else for any reason!

Power is a very dangerous thing indeed!

[60] Posted by TLDillon on 11-10-2008 at 12:01 PM • top

No, the RCC is loath to sell or deed over to Protestant/Reformed bodies. It has no problem doing so with Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches.

[61] Posted by Conchúr on 11-10-2008 at 01:38 PM • top

With all due respect to 63, you are mistaken. A very prominent parish in New England recently purchased a former RCC. I’m sure it varies from RC Diocese to RC Diocese, but I know of several examples of RC property being sold to former TEC churches.

[62] Posted by Pittsburgh Priest on 11-10-2008 at 03:46 PM • top

# 63 I know of one RCC church property which was sold to an Assembly of God startup.  With the warehouses full of RC “church goods” from closed parishes which are for sale to any buyer, it’s hard to believe that the buildings wouldn’t be.

[63] Posted by Long Gone Anglo Catholic on 11-10-2008 at 04:03 PM • top

#47 - Rob Eaton+ Thank you for that wise and gracious reminder.

As for those who God calls to remain in TEO, sometimes God calls us to be a witness even when the immediate cause is lost. The prophet Jeremiah comes to mind.  Jerusalem was taken and burned with fire. Even when Jeremiah had prophesied afterwards to the Jews who desired to escape to Egypt, his prophecy was ignored. Was the prophet a failure? To the contrary; he was a smashing success in that he persevered and was faithful, and has left for us some of the most sublime utterences contained in Scripture for the comfort and edification of His people, along with prophecies which have been fulfilled, and will yet BE fulfilled. He is to this day rightly regarded as one of the greatest of Gods prophets.

And just as truly, thank you for being gracious to those of us who have been washed clean by the shed blood of Christ and sealed for eternity with His Holy Spirit who are outside of the great umbrella of Anglicanism. I have found that ultimately, “the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.”

Grace and peace to all.

[64] Posted by GSP98 on 11-10-2008 at 04:34 PM • top

(this is going to read harsher than meant),
Kenneth (48),

You and Simon Peter, when Jesus announces his Passion.
Or the disciples asking Jesus about “the other disciple” prior to his ascension.
Again, look up at the Cross on Calvary and say that.
Really.
From a biblical perspective, your attitude and words don’t always work.

I’m really hoping that once Fort Worth does their thing we can get past the interstate criticism and denouncing and find ways to support each other whether “inside” or “outside.”

[65] Posted by Rob Eaton+ on 11-10-2008 at 08:03 PM • top

The former RC Church in Easton MD is now occupied by the Anglican Catholic Church (or something similiar - I can’t keep track - - -).  Previously, they had a storefront just down the street, and incidentally, equidistant from their new “digs” and The Diocese of Easton Cathedral (Bud Shand & Co).

Their new “digs” are just about as large (seating wise) as the TEC Cathedral and by all accounts they are doing a very good job especially within the Hispanic community.  Oh well !!!

[If I remember correctly, a RC Bishop out of the Diocese of Wikmington was present at the Consecration of the ACC Bishop.  The Consecretion was held in the Oxford MD TEC church.]

[66] Posted by star-ace on 11-10-2008 at 08:18 PM • top

Sorry, it’s the TEC.  Website: http://www.saintandreweaston.org/

This building was previously the RC parish.

[67] Posted by star-ace on 11-10-2008 at 08:21 PM • top

Hmmm, ODC… the time has come…

Regarding #51,
If you place the verse I think to which you were alluding back into Jesus’ sermon, you should be able to get a handle on this. I say “alluding” because your comment kind of drifts off into a conflation of the verse from Jesus and a Job thing and a Moses’ staff before Pharoah thing, including switching gears between a bad tree but then the tree is good and being corrupted.
You’ll need to work that one out.
Anyway, here is that portion of Jesus’ sermon from Luke 6 in the KJV, for fun:

Luke 6:41-49
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.
43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

You might want to find some other verse to use when speaking only of association beyond oneself.  Here, Jesus uses the illustration to speak to each one’s own heart, and promises salvation to anyone who accepts him as the foundation of their life - despite the location of the house in a storm as long as it is built on the Rock. 
Matthew Henry put it this way,
“Those only make sure work for their souls and eternity, and take the course that will profit in a trying time, who think, speak, and act according to the words of Christ. Those who take pains in religion, found their hope upon Christ, who is the Rock of Ages, and other foundation can no man lay. In death and judgment they are safe, being kept by the power of Christ through faith unto salvation, and they shall never perish.”

To persist using this verse directed to individuals to describe instead TECUSA and then being forced to judge that all who remain are simply bad fruit, equal to damnation, means then you will be forced to place Jesus in that same judgment, since he was born into and circumcised as a member of a corrupt tree, the People of the Law, a Covenant broken.

It’s time to mind your own fruit.

[68] Posted by Rob Eaton+ on 11-11-2008 at 01:50 AM • top

Fr. Rob if you read what I said I never said that the good fruit is bad because it is on a bad tree. That cannot happen! I said that the good fruit will be consumed by the bad vine that has over taken the tree! If you feel the need to admonish me please do it correctly!

[69] Posted by TLDillon on 11-11-2008 at 10:31 AM • top

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