All Saints Ft. Worth Parishioners Express Concern About Attempted Manipulation By Rector

Good for whoever wrote this!

Yours in Christ,
jacob

This is fantastic work on the part of these flag-planting parishioners!

Is Ann Bass a parishoner of All Saints by chance?

I hope they signed it.

I also hope that whoever wrote this is willing to put his or her name on it.  Anonymous letters of this sort are unhelpful and cowardly.

Too bad they didn’t sign it.  It would carry more weight.  If they fear the rector and his/her lawyers, they shouldn’t stay in that purgatory of a church.

Whatever you think of this situation, can I suggest you remove the phone and email contacts from the letter displayed above. If we are loving our neighbour as ourself I know I wouldn’t want those details on the internet.

Is this the parish at which Katie Sherrod’s husband serves as an adjunct priest or something?  I’m not sure and am simply asking.

RE: “Anonymous letters of this sort are unhelpful and cowardly.”

Said the person writing a blog comment under a pseudonym.

Seconding Anselmic.

#7, Anselmic, that particular contact information is already on the web. The phone number shown for the rector as well as the email address are available at the church’s website. Likewise, the number shown for the bishop is on the diocesan website. All of it is very much public information.

The Episcopal Church: all of the ritual, none of the theology

This group is known to the Rector, the last I heard they had over a 100 names in the group.  Also there is no fear but the hope to inform the pew sitters of the truth of what is happening to their parish, which is being withheld from them.  Over 75% of the parish in the past withheld their tithe from TEC.  They are fighting back for THEIR parish, why should they go anywhere.

Just because the copy presented here bears no signature does not mean that the actual letter is unsigned.

RE: “Anonymous letters of this sort are unhelpful and cowardly.”

Said the person writing a blog comment under a pseudonym.

As a rector, who can’t even spell pseudonym, unless I copy it directly, let alone write under one, I must agree with both of you.

I agree with mousestalker [post #11]. In fact, I went out to the website for All Saints Ft. Worth because I couldn’t clearly read the email address for the rector in the letter above. I am still debating whether I should email him myself, an email which he would obviously ignore.

But the more relevant matter is why should we be concerned with offending the rector when he shows so little concern with the feelings/concerns of his parishioners.

Perhaps the reason for the anonymity is the lawyer on each hip of the rector? The TEO-ers have shown no qualms about suing parishioners.

I don’t find rap sheets published on the web to be very helpful. It is a nuclear option, and there might well be uncomfortable facts lurking that we are not seeing. With the rector having lawyers at his side, perhaps such an option is merited, but this is not apparent in the letter.

What have the disgruntled parishioners done to bring in the resources of the diocese to resolve their differences? What has the Bishop done? I would think that if matters have come to such a head, there would have been an intervention by now.

The rector has two lawyers at his side at every vestry meeting? That’s dysfunctional bordering on psychotic.

In this newsletter, Jambor used Rick Warren to build his case against leaving TEC. Jambor may be interested to know that Rick Warren has supported, and continues to support the persecuted of TEC. In fact, he has offered his church for a gathering place of TEC refugees.
http://www.allsaintsfortworth.org/ProO/2008/November4_Blue.pdf

Interesting that Jambor has a lawyer on each hip. According to this newsletter, he gives pathetic reasons to remain in TEC-including the fear of a legal challenge.
http://www.allsaintsfortworth.org/ProO/2008/November18_Blue.pdf

Greg, it is more than psychotic. An eyewitness told me about Jambor pounding his fist on the pulpit, and yelling, “we are under attack.” We must sympathize about the loss of his son. However, Jambor has chosen to attack, marginalize, and belittle those who disagree with him. He has set himself up to come under scrutiny.

Sorry for the delay in a response.  The contact information was not redacted because they are not personal addresses but the parish phone and the diocesan office phone and as mousestalker said - all is public info on the web site.

Jambor lectures his parish about truth.  No wonder some members are shaking their heads in disbelief!

http://www.allsaintsfortworth.org/ProO/2008/July 29 FINAL-BLUE.pdf

Jambor leaves himself a loophole in this article about SS blessings. Basically, he won’t do them until the mind of the communion changes.

http://www.allsaintsfortworth.org/ProO/2008/September 23 BLUE.pdf

Touche’ Fr. Van and Sarah, both of whom are far braver than I.  And Sarah, at least, is never afraid to chew out those whose views differ from hers. 

I would point out, however, that I’m not sending out a letter to my parish family challenging the rector on these issues and, depending on your point of view, either calling him on the carpet or stirring up trouble.  I would hope that if I were going to do so, that I would sign my name.  If I were to receive such a letter, which I have, in fact received in the past, I would not be inclined to pay much attention to it.

Katie Sherrod attends Trinity in Fort Worth. She ran for a position on the vestry there. Fred Barber is the rector.  She certainly has her finger in All Saints pot. My guess is her husband, Gayland, assists when needed.

#7 Anselmic,
I agree with mousetalker and I for one will be sending an e-mail of support for these godly men & women who wrote this letter! I think that having that public information is a way for those us who support those who wrote it and let the rector know that they have brothers and sisters abundance out there throughout the U.S.

Maybe the conservative are finally finding their voices and their courage to make it known and heard!

Re - the Telephone number and email address, I still think you should blank them out. There is a world of difference between a parish phone number on a website, that is largely going to be browsed by folk wanting information specific to that church, and posting those same details on a site that has the traffic StandFirm has.

To my mind a good and fair policy would be not to publish any contact details of anyone without prior authorisation. We all know how to Google the information we need, what possible use is their in posting telephone numbers and email addresses in situations like this?

Well, if a “wall down the middle” shall be built, give TEC the Chapel of the Annunciation and take the Main Church to the Southern Cone, please. Just add a Tabernacle to the Main Altar.

And per #8, yes, Gayland Poole, husband of Katie Sherrod, was an assistant priest at All Saints’ a few years back.  He still seems to exert influence.  Once, back in my Canterbury Trail days, after an evening Eucharist at All Saints’, I brought up to Fr. Poole my concerns regarding TEC’s liberal stance on active homosexuality in leadership…by the time he was done, it was as if he was saying he had no real problem with it.  I expected different of a FW priest.  Boy was I mistaken.  He likes to keep in mischief in both FW and Dallas Dioceses.  He was brought to Holy Trinity, Heath(east of Dallas), as interim a few years back.  That place had a stacked vestry.

You can try to have a conversation with Via Media folks at All Saints’ as a church guest at dinner…pleasant and smiling on random surface subjects…but mention that there is such thing as absolute Truth, that you believe Jesus Christ is unique in His role as Savior, and that you like Nashotah House…and look out…they behave like you just went to the bathroom all over the table…haughty, bitter, elitist, and ruled by emotional motive.  These are the folks who give the rector power…loud and dictatorial with a chip on the shoulder.  These are the kind that run off orthodox priests and good staff.

I would wager that the anonymous source of this letter is precisely that, #16…afraid of punitive and legal ramifications…because the “freedom fighters for equality” in TEC only believe in their own ideas…cross those ideas, and look out for the lawyers, litigation, and legislation.  Hence punitive canonical plans at GenCon 2009 for dissident TEC laity. 

All Saints’ has become

Oh I think the chance of any one calling those numbers in an obnoxious way is slim to none. 

Also: I am a lawyer, and if any rectors out there want me to sit next to them at their vestry meetings, just give me a shout out.  For a reasonable $275 per hour fee, I can kick you under the table before you say something stupid.  For $450 per hour, will kick you even harder.

Uh…removing the telephone and e-mail contact info as “loving our neighbor”???  The bishop has very public contact info for a reason…he is chief shepherd of the Diocese.  Papa Jack is no wuss…he doesn’t hide.  He’ll be ok.

As for All Saints’ rector…he is chief pastor of the parish, therefore his contact info is public and needed.  What?  Are we gonna stop calling our senators and reps???  That’s called being a citizen.  The above is called being a real parishioner.

The key to the power of TEC and, yes, even conservative fence-sitting leaders, is keeping the laity “dumb” and quiet…and if necessary, intimidated.  A conservative bishop even sent out a letter to that effect not long ago…rallying the damage control with strategy to keep the sheep stupid.

Yes to Anne and Robert Bass. They are very much supportive of All Saints’ rector.

Oh no, #25…let’s not “stir up trouble”.  It’s so animal…so un-English…so Un-episcopalian…so inconvenient when it doesn’t go your way!!!

The Gospel is worth the trouble…keeping it from being adulterated and disseminated in half-truths.

There are Basses and Moncriefs on the conservative side, too…

Dallasite,
Whose to say that the names were not attached but on a separate page that accompanied the letter? Do you want a target list for your records? It seems that way. I am sue that those who not only helped in writing this letter and agree with it have let those in receipt of it know who they are. Move forward!

Nasty, Brutish, and Short
I cannot afford you! Would you consider me a charity case?

*Sigh* Tx Thurifer, please read the post. Please remember there’s such a thing as “context.”

A suggestion for you, TxThurifer, is that we should always question who is doing the adulterating, and who is speaking in half-truths.  It isn’t necessarily “them.”  Those are weaknesses that abound on all sides of the aisle, and in most blogs, including this one.

How do we know this was written by All Saints’ parishioners?

Maybe someone can elighten me as to why this letter was not signed?  I agree that the actions they describe as the Rector’s are abhorrent and clearly unfounded and inappropriate, but what chance does a congregation have of reforming things if they are unwilling to stand up and personally be counted?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but as someone stated above I do find the weight of the argument lessened by the lack of ownership.

Of course, I allow that there may be some compelling reasons for not signing it that I am not aware of, but I would be curious to hear what these are.

KTF!...mrb

Again….....Whose to say they didn’t sign it on a separate piece of paper that accompanied the letter? If that is the case and that page was not made known maybe the person who made this letter public can answer the questions regarding the signature(s)? I personally do not care since validating it would be easy enough if one needed the validation so disparately! Call the Bishop….call the rector…..call the Sr. Warden…..the Church Secretary….if you need validation that bad….make a few calls!

RE: “And Sarah, at least, is never afraid to chew out those whose views differ from hers.”

Particularly if they are lying frauds, claiming to be a certain brand when they clearly are not.  But people with views who differ from mine but aren’t frauds, not so much.

I’m sure that’s what you meant!  ; > )

As a member of the Georgia Bar, I will kick 10% harder for the same fees charged by #30, supra. Table pounding is available at a low, low additional surcharge of $35 per hour. I also charge a moderate $25 per ‘Harrumph’.

We used to be Catholic lite, now we are Catholic Free

What do you charge for adjusting your glasses with a severe look, mousestalker?

“The rector has two lawyers at his side at every vestry meeting? That’s dysfunctional bordering on psychotic.” I disagree! Obviously the man is delusional, please, two lawyers at his side, with no one to cover his back, yikes!

$3, osciwicee, glasses adjustement has a sliding scale, a mere movement of the optics accompanied by a mildly scornful glance is a mere $10, whilst the full “Gerry Spence” glower is an affordable $75, this month only.

The Episcopal Church: Cheap Grace, Cheap Faith, Cheap Good Works. My church has been taken over by Dollar General.

Does Ms. Sherrod go to All Saints? She is among the leaders of the revisionist movement in the Episcopal Church. Based on Ms. Sherrod’s blog it looks like All Saints clergy have moved the church to the forefront of the anti-Iker cause.
“The Rev. Christopher Jambor, rector of All Saints’ Episcopal Church, has announced the establishment of the All Saints’ Pastoral Center. ...a response to the concern for isolated and/or estranged Episcopalians throughout the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth who have pastoral/sacramental needs.”

If the faithful members of All Saints want to take back their church, they will have to fight for it. That means winning the next Vestry election, and for the next Vestry to do what is necessary to ensure that clergy are replaced. If a courageous and faithful vestry is not elected, they should vote with their feet.

If the orthodox want to take back their church from Jambor and his goons, they better do more than wring their hands. Jambor will squeeze out some wonderful staff members if they don’t fight.

#47…he’s already done that!!!  It’s just getting worse.  And Ms. Sherrod is at Trinity Fort Worth, per #26…the liberal bastion.

This All Saints saga reminds me of another All Saints. That rector was also coveting the color purple. A once thriving, wealthy parish gradually died off because he didn’t leave behind a strong spiritual base. He was too busy climbing the TEC corporate ladder, and kissing up to the power brokers. The irony is that his campaign platform was to reform from within TEC. Every once in awhile he offers up a limp protest, but neither orthodox nor liberals take him seriously. His former parishioners are left to mourn a dead, broke church.

There is little chance for supporters of the move to the Southern Cone to be elected to the vestry at All Saints because the rector will not allow them to run unless they sign the TEC loyalty oath. In fact I have it on good authority that he will not permit them to run with or without the loyalty oath if he knows where they stand on the issue. The only chance is a floor fight at the annual meeting.

monika

Monika,
How inclusive of him! Lord have mercy.

Oooohhh…a good fight.  How un-elegant and un-episcopalian.  It’s so…basic and tawdry…so “street”.  It’s much healthier to scheme, plot, stack vestries, intimidate, badger, legislate from the church office, litigate, and kill the loyal opposition.  Infections fester much better just below the skin sometimes…when they’re hidden.  The good rector, also a medical physician, knows this.

Okay “Saints”...grow a pair and go for it.  It can be done.

Two lawyers to help with the double-talk?

Two lawyers don’t help with double talk. Two lawyers add to the clarity. When you show up with counsel at both elbows, you’re making a statement. And you’re being quite explicit as to what that statement is.

The Episcopal Church: Choosing our beneficiaries carefully in case those slobs actually join us.

It is amazing to see Texans so passive. What is wrong with those people? Didn’t they learn from their experience with the former rector? When he was asked to resign for a VERY GOOD REASON, people jumped all over the vestry. Those on the vestry that wanted to hold him accountable were vilified. The church attorney put a gag order on them so they couldn’t defend themselves from the vicious attacks.
Fast forward to today. Their present rector Jambor is operating like a banana republic dictator. The lack of opposition will cause them to lose the only REAL priest they have. They will be left with a ruthless, ambitious man that wants to wear the color purple.

For years the Bass and Moncrief families have done magnificent work in our community.  They have given us a fantastic cultural scene, and a wonderful downtown area. How disappointing they are choosing to use their money to oppose Bishop Iker.

hellcat, I do hope whoever the conservatives are at All Saints, they will read and heed Jim Workman’s advice to the parish about bylaws and rules found here in his comments:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/18822/

#57
Those same ones are not opposing +Iker. It is the other Bass family.

“But the more relevant matter is why should we be concerned with offending the rector when he shows so little concern with the feelings/concerns of his parishioners.”  -Posted by FrVan on 12-22-2008 at 12:40 PM

This particular comment is bizzare at best.  And absolutely false.  I watched Fr. Jambor help plan and prepare for a parishoner’s funeral as he was planning his own son’s funeral this past June.  I have seen Fr. Jambor dying daily to himself to serve others in Christ’s name. 

This letter that was sent out was, indeed, unsigned.  (Just to clear up any confusion I’ve read on this site.)  The comments are out of context and/or mis-quotes.  And as far as “the rector needing two lawyers at his side at every vestry meeting”.  Would it occur to anyone that just perhaps these two particular members of the vestry are lawyers??  Big deal. 

I am amazed at the amount of thought and effort that has gone into attacking a man that you don’t even know.  A man who is just wanting to do good work where he has been placed.  I think that the assumption that he wants to become a bishop is absurd.  If he wanted to further his career and make lots of money he would have remained a doctor, not gone into ministry.  Surely, when he chose to go to seminary, he never imagined that he would have to be a politician.

Please remember that you are talking about a man, father, grandfather, son.  A human who is loved and admired.  As I am reading below this comment box: Matthew 5:43-45.  Surely we should be praying for our enemies. 

Much love to all here.  And Merry Christmas.  And please, while you are praying, remember that Fr. Jambor is spending his Christmas without his only son this year.  Pray for peace for his family.

I apologize for attaching the wrong name to the quote I used in my previous comment.  That comment belongs to: Posted by fastlosinghope on 12-22-2008 at 12:44 PM

Ann_J-Most of us know that Father Jambor has lost much this last year, but everything I hear and read, some from his own words, is that he has changed considerably.  The quotes in the letter are identical to things that I have heard in the last 6 weeks.  Not all the lawyers on his “side” are on vestry. The oath requirement, manmade, not God made, is not fiction.  There is a large group of conservatives that heve made themselves known and I believe what we are seeing his is reaction to them, to maintain control.  As much as you may want it to be, he is not acting out of love. There is no such thing as a lukewarm Christian.

gary,
RE: “There is no such thing as a lukewarm Christian.”
not true! There most certainly are lukewarm Christians. The are called ,i>“Moderates”</i>, “C & E-er’s” (Christmas & Easter Christians), and those who show up at church once or twice a month!

Well, Gary, I believe we’ll have to agree to disagree.  The oath requirement, as you are bringing it up, should not be an issue.  If you are an Episcopalian priest, you’ve already signed the oath.  Furthermore, you wouldn’t want a non-episcopalian to sit on an episcopalian vestry.  Not sure what the issue is with that…. I agree that the oath is man made, not God made.  So is the entire political process in which we are finding ourselves at this time.  Please just remember we are all one in Christ.  Not in Jambor or Iker or the presiding Bishop.  Christ has given us our salvation and this is the unfortunate way we are caring for that gift at this time.  By attacking and accusing another member in the Body. 

Again, Merry Christmas.  How will you serve this year?  I know Fr. Jambor is.

There has been a sizable ad for the remainder churches here in Fort Worth. It made me wonder how the small churches could afford to fund the ad. Trinity, the last time I checked had a sizable deficit.  The mystery was solved when I read the latest newsletter from All Saints. If Jambor didn’t want to be a bishop, he would only be concerned with his own church.

http://www.allsaintsfortworth.org/ProO/2008/December16_blue.pdf

One Day Close-Can you only accept a little bit of Jesus, a little bit of grace, just a hint of the Holy Spirit?  And showing up in Church is not the issue. g

Ann_J- we all have the same grace, none has more than another, and it is not about works, is it? Is he bringing glory to God by his actions(that is the only measuring stick), if not, then he should not be doing them. Does he bring glory to God to support an organization (TEC) that supports abortion? “thow didst knit me together in my mother’s womb” Ps. 139:13 Does not need intrepretation.

gary,
I personally cannot, but….the revisionist and the LGBT groups certainly do. So much so that they are ready and eager to re-write the bible to fit their own ideas and ask God to conform to them not them to Him.

Jambor is hardly slumming it as rector of All Saints. In fact, he probably has a similar lifestyle to what he “sacrificed” as a medical doctor.  A good friend of mine, also a doctor, went to Africa to practice medicine.  While there, he contracted polio. That is a true sacrifice.

The average Episcopal rector makes a good living, compared to other denominations.  Add to that the Church Pension Fund, and it’s even better.  Add to that being a rector in a cardinal parish in a very wealthy neighborhood with lots of old money…and it’s better.  Add to that a very nice parsonage(although I am not sure I would want my parsonage across the street from the church).  Then tell me that that an M.D…a very intelligent person…didn’t think he’d have to be a politician.  I think every person going into ordained ministry knows that there are politics involved…the choice is whether to become a politician.  The temptation is there…but keep people around you to be honest with you in case you start to change.  And in this case there has been a change.  On many many visits I have been struck by the lukewarm waters of ASEC over the years.  That is observation…true or not…that has been perception.  If I were a parishioner there, I wouldn’t want an “Episcopal” priest or vestry.  I would want an on-fire for Jesus, Christian one.  That way they could actually get past the word “Episcopal” and discern by the power of the Holy Spirit if their association with TEC is a good thing or not.  The writing is on the wall…and so many are married to the very word “EPISCOPAL”...not the “Eternal Word” and the sacrifice thereof that orthodox belief and practice entail.  Many in Africa and around the world keep their pure unadulterated faith every day after their whole families are slaughtered and livlihoods taken.

Peace to all in this joyous season.

As a cradle Episcopalian who grew up in the Diocese of Texas (in Houston,) and a 22-year member and former vestry member of Trinity, Fort Worth, I am amused and bemused to see Trinity referred to as, “that liberal bastion.”  Really?  That’s a pretty strong statement.  On what basis would you judge as as a “liberal bastion?”  The fact that our rector supports WO?  Because Katie Sherrod is a member here?  Seriously, please tell me why Trinity, a growing, thriving, happy parish, would be labeled a “liberal bastion” just because we wish to stay in the TEC?

By the way, we temporarily do have a $30,000 deficit because of a innocent bookkeeping error made by the office manager who retired last year.  The deficit will be taken care of within this coming budget year without any harm to our numerous outreach programs. We’re not in the red from falling pledges or plate collections. 

More importantly, our pews are full on Sundays (with babies and seniors and singles and teenagers and everyone in between!) and our outreach and education programs taking place throughout the week are strong.  Any of you living in or visiting Fort Worth, I heartily encourage you to come visit.  I think you’ll find our services and people amazingly traditional!

We’ll have a glorious Midnight Mass tomorrow, incense included, but you’d better come early for a seat! Or if you’d prefer an earlier, less formal occasional, show up for The Children’s Pageant and Birthday Party for Jesus!  It’s a hoot watching the little ones experience the true joy of the season.

Trinity Parish, now over 115 years old, has always been a loving, giving, friendly, vibrant place to love God and to follow Jesus, who is the Way, the Truth and the Light.  Come worship with us. Come pray with us. 

Wherever you worship at Christmas, may the Peace of the Lord be always with you.

sisterinChrist-Trinity is called a liberal bastion because it’s Rector supports the abortion laws, it has as many as 3 unrepentant lesibans on the altar during communion, at least one priest does not believe that God knows all, at least on priest does not believe homosxuality to be a sin, at least on priest stated that Jesus is one of the way MOST people have recieved salvation, many conservative have left because they had little children and did not know what they would hear or see next and you should hear them laught at Bishop Iker “short jokes”, do not even know which part of Corinthians that came from.

By the way,  in Trinity’s October newsletter, Fred Barber states they have a 50,000 deficit.  He also acknowledges loss of income due to the loss of donors choosing to stay with Bishop Iker. Attendance is up, but giving is not.
http://www.fortworthtrinity.org/parish papers/parish paper 1008.pdf

hellcat - I stand corrected as to the amount of the deficit.  Here is what Fr. Fred wrote: “While our pledge receipts year-to-date have held firm, we have lost some major givers. Some have died, some have moved, and a few have elected to move to another parish that will leave the Episcopal Church and remain with Bishop Iker.”

Be that as it may, Trinity is healthy and Trinity will continue to grow and serve the community.  I do encourage any of you who don’t know us to come and worship with us one Sunday.  Come and visit in the Parish Hall during Coffee Hour.  We don’t bite.  I promise.

After the 87% of a certain parish left in the Dallas area, a lot of the former liberal malcontents returned once the inconvenient conservatives had been squeezed out of the building, after a broken promise by the Ordinary.  The parish reconstituted with new old faces.  Could that be part of why TFW is “up” in attendance?  #72…ditto.

Is that what the leaders of All Saints are hoping, once the inconvenient conservatives are gone?

Yep.

sisterinChrist, God’s peace and the joy of the season be with you and yours as well! I am glad that you have carried the torch for the Episcopal church from your cradle - many do. Your amusement about being called a liberal parish may stem from your vantage - if you are already a centrist or even more progressive - the parish in your eyes may in fact seem to be a little on the conservative side. Others here have witnessed to the elements within Trinty that seem to indicate it’s progressiveness. You may decide to counter the effect of those elements, but they seem to reinforce the perception. I am glad that you can say that Trinty is a “growing thriving happy parish” - so few are nowadays. May the desire to love and serve God and bear true witness to the salvation through the grace provided by His son Jesus Christ’ death and resurrection continue with you and the parish. Perhaps Trinty will serve as a bastion of the historic faith, tradition and scriptural integrity within TEC that will be an instrument of God’s will for that institution.

#78…to your last point…I hope so.

When my daughter first moved to F.W. to attend TCU, she was looking for a church home.  I told her to enjoy being able to try out various congregation, since coming from a small town there were not a lot of choices.  I also suggested for convenience sake that she give Trinity a try.  She did—one time.  Said she would NEVER go back—WAY TOO liberal for her.  This was an 18 year old college student!  I’ve also known several Trinity members and former members—definitely a liberal parish!!!

#80-

At the risk of going off topic I would like to say to your daughter…..GO FROGS!

BigTex AC

Thanks, BigTex AC!  We’re looking forward to watching the game!

Thank you very much for the kind and thoughtful response, masternav.

What is the point in badgering Father Jambor like this? But I mean really what is it gonna accomplish? It’s one thing to disagree on the issues but, to personally attack by mailing an anonymous letter is cowardly. I mean really the guy is Father Jambor. He isnt some power thirsty villain, he is a priest. Why are we looking at him like he is destroying the very roots of Christianity? This is becoming just flat out rediculous.

No, it is not ridiculous. The church is split and the rector has an obligation to be pastoral to both sides, not just one.

martin5-I thought you were taking some time off.  My response to chrisJ is that priests are just sinners like all of us.  He has the same amount of grace. He is not loved any more by Jesus than you or I.

Jambor has actively sought publicity through his actions and alliances. Those that don’t share his theology, are being viciously squeezed out.  If he wasn’t a “power thirsty villain”, he would not be demanding loyalty oaths, and squelching a democratic vote to stay or leave TEC. Carefully read the All Saint’s newsletters-especially the one about truth. You will begin to understand why several parishioners are concerned and upset.

Many priests in the history of the Church have done great harm by their actions…sometimes well-meaning.  I have met some destructive and “power-thirsty villainous” people in TEC…in person, a lot of them are very personable, and yes, likable…so that has nothing to do with it.

There is a suffragan bishop of a TX diocese that once said…“There will be a lot of priests in Hell.”  Not saying in this case by any means…not my job, praise God.  What I am saying is that just because someone is a priest or a bishop doesn’t give them automatic immunity to evil works…or from at least cooperation with evil.

Hey, Henry - Interesting your college age daughter found Trinity “WAY” too liberal.  She went one time?  I’m guessing, since she’s a teenager and probably slept late, that she chose to go to the 11:15 Contemporary Music Service.  That service definitely is a little free-wheeling, but I don’t know if it makes it “WAY” too liberal.  I doubt if she’d attended the 9:15 traditional service that she’d have found much amiss. 

That said, we’ve raised our three children at Trinity, all confirmed by Bp. Iker.  Two of them are now in college and I’d venture to say that neither of them think Trinity is WAY TOO liberal.  One college son, who is politically apathetic and much too much into his frat world, loves Rite I.  The other voted for McCain in this last election and is a hard core Republican, but he does loathe incense.  Our youngest, still at home, admires Bill O’Reilly and has asked for and will receive a “Don’t Be a Pinhead” doormat for Christmas.  We all admire President Bush.  (Although I admit I am a Republican who voted for Mr. Obama.  GASP!  You caught me!) 

In spite of the fact that my family leans right, politically speaking, my children grew up friends with the children of Trinity’s openly gay organist and guess what, I don’t think they’ve been tainted.  They may be tolerant, but definitely they’re not tainted. Furthermore, I don’t have a problem with the “lesibans” at the altar (I think there is one, maybe two, but I don’t ask folks about their sexuality as a rule. I don’t ask any of the servers if they sincerely have repented of all of their sins before I take wine from them.)

It may surprise you to know that I think that the election and consecration of Bp. Robinson was a huge mistake.  But then, I didn’t vote for Bp. Iker when I was a delegate to convention that year, either. I have a problem with anyone who thinks it’s their way or the highway.  Jesus died for all of us.  The jargon currently in play - “the faith once received” etc etc - was not terminology that was bandied about in the Episcopal Church of my youth.  It’s THAT Episcopal Church for which I fight.  Not the Episcopal Church as defined by those on either coasts who would bring their secular progressive ideals to a church that traditionally has been capable of holding various viewpoints safely in the fold, nor the “Anglican” Church that would systematically refuse to sit at the table with anyone who’s views differ from theirs. 

Why am I going on and on?  Because I am not unique.  I am but one of many thinking, thoughtful, loving people who are tired of the infighting and the harm we are doing to Christianity and to Christ by our bickering.  The folks at Trinity aren’t better Christians than anyone else.  We are all sinners.  I think we should all be hesitant about labeling people, most especially those we don’t know.  And I am very sure that many of you feel the same way.

“Liberal” has nothing to do with worship style…we’re talking theology and fundamental beliefs.  I’m Generation X and love Rite I/1928/Anglican Missal…love incense, Anglican Chant, and the best of the English Cathedral Choral Tradition…and I have danced in church at charismatic gatherings with full-on band…gasp.  Again…not the point.

When did this become about the elections???  Incidentally I am a GenX Artsy guy who voted McCain/Palin all the way…I’m a fundamental issue kind of guy.

I have known people that are unrepentantly gay and counted them as friends…but they know how I feel…ans without Bible-beating.  They know I do not validate or support their position.  It didn’t taint me, either.  I have also known many repentant people with same-sex attraction who are overall happy, healthy, and committed to personal holiness even in face of temptation…something we all need to be committed to.  But again…not the point.

“The Faith Once Delivered” as a phrase is relatively new to me since I did not grow up in the Apostolic Tradition.  But I learned quickly that it is an ancient reference…not “jargon” at all…and a good phrase worth reviving, remembering, and repeating.

“Sitting at the table”, as you say, is what gets us deeper in this mess.  TEC has NO intention of true conversation or communion.  Even the miraculous INDABA of Lambeth 2008 didn’t do much of anything…they were closely controlled.  Can’t wait for the even more miraculous UBUNTU of GenCon 2009.

I am the last person on earth who likes labels…I really dislike them.  Orthodox conservatives are loving and thoughtful, too.  “Progressives” and the ever-patronizing term “Thinking Anglicans” don’t corner that market…as if we don’t think either.

To declare that there is peace when there is no peace is folly.  Scripture even says that.  Fake smiling church grins don’t cut it…we have to get real…and a lot of folks don’t want to face up to what they really believe or don’t believe.  Part of communion is common fundamental belief.  I did not say “fundamentalist”, either…so don’t go there.

Gary, thanks for explaining so thoroughly why Trinity Fort Worth is a “liberal bastion.”

All we need now is Tom Woodward claiming that it has been certified orthodox by those people who matter.  ; > )

“As a member of the Georgia Bar, I will kick 10% harder for the same fees charged by #30, supra. Table pounding is available at a low, low additional surcharge of $35 per hour. I also charge a moderate $25 per ‘Harrumph’.”

I will beat that. You can keep your table. And I wont charge you for not returning your calls.

I think I’ll go back to my original, “Peace to All” message.  We have as many conservatives - theologically and politically speaking - at Trinity as we do liberals - theologically and politically speaking.  We all get along.  That’s the point I was trying to make, and perhaps I did not make it well.

Last time I spent any time on the blogs was last winter, and then I gave them up for Lent and didn’t come back until now.  I’m vamoosing again now as I feel good about standing up for my beloved Trinity and I don’t think I can add anything else new to the conversation.  Merry Christmas, All, and many, many blessing to you and yours!

Ann_J: I am the SOB who made the comment above “why should we be so concerned about offending the rector when he shows so little concern for the feelings of his parishioners.”

Two responses:
1] For many of us, seeing what has happened to TEC in the last 10 years in particular is akin to losing a child. I left TEC three years ago, have tried other orthodox churches, but have not found the same feeling I had when I joined TEC in 1982. I miss it and really resent those who support and futher its current wayward path. I keep hoping for a “reversal of fortune” which is why I “tune in” to Stand Firm.
2] If the rector is in fact not using his position to effect the outcome of the stay/leave dilemma, then I do owe him an apology. But you see, I am especially sensitive to this “undue influence” approach. One of the reasons I left the Cathedral of St. Philip in Atlanta and ultimately TEC was a policy implemented several years ago that the current vestry [actually, the Chapter] would elect the succeeding members. This was described to the parishioners as a “relief” of the burden of having to get to know the nominees and that any church member could nominate a candidate for consideration by the then-serving vestry. The church membership was never asked how they felt about the loss of their right to vote on vestry members. Like most Episcopalians, the church membership went along with this change like sheep led to the slaughter. Four or five years after the fact, I have to salute the Dean and church leaders at St. Philips for anticipating that a few of us might just stand up and scream “I’m mad as hell and I’m not taking it anymore” - and effectively cut us off at the pass. Those, like myself, who might have questioned the current proposal being considered by the Diocese of Atlanta to provide a formal church ceremony for same sex couples have either left or simply decided that life is too short and they are too old to say anything.

I repeat a comment I made on another StandFirm string. I do not understand those who would support a Presiding Bishop who is on record as saying she would sell church assets [building, etc.] to other denominations [and I am told, but have not been able to substantiate this, that she would sell said assets to be used as a saloon] but has publicly said she would not…and this is public record…to any entity within the Anglican Communion that would challenge the monopoly of TEC within the United States.

<blockquote> ...Why am I going on and on?  Because I am not unique.  I am but one of many thinking, thoughtful, loving people who are tired of the infighting and the harm we are doing to Christianity and to Christ by our bickering.  The folks at Trinity aren’t better Christians than anyone else.  We are all sinners… </blockqote>
SisterinChrist—We probably agree on more than we disagree on overall, but where we disagree is on some major stuff.  Also, you say you’re tired of the infighting, yet you continue to support those who only want to sue fellow Christians.  The Diocesan leadership has worked very hard to try to mediate all of this and make it as easy as possible, but no go on your side.  This could all be basically over with in short order if the suits were dropped and we allowed the parishes who supposedly want to stay in TEC to vote—2/3 majority wins!

Henry,
I am impressed that your daughter went to church no matter what time ... which should not make a difference at all.
Gary,
I am taking time off. Can’t you tell!
Merry Christmas Everyone!

I am a former member of All Saints Fort Worth, and have several close friends who are currently members of All Saints.  What is happening at the parish is a symptom of what is happening throughout TEC.  Once TEC abandoned the “faith once delivered” there was no turning back. Reason has died. There is no defense for what the rector of ASFW is putting his flock through.  Scripture contains a set of “woes” for such shepherds.

One of the problems in trying to deal with what is happening at ASFW is that the rector is dillusional.  He believes, erroneously, that Bp. Iker has no authority over him because he voted not to leave TEC.  He has stated from the pulpit on Sunday that the diocese no longer has a bishop, and he has removed Bp. Iker’s name from the prayers of the people.  ASFW is still in the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth, the one the voted at a duly convevened convention to leave TEC.  That means all of the diocese left, not just the ones who voted to leave.

The absurdity of the rector’s position can clearly be seen in looking at the national elections we just had.  If we follow the rector’s line of reasoning, those of us who did not vote for Obama should claim that we remain under President Bush, or, following even worse reasoning, that we are under John McCain.  The diocese is made up of the parishes and parishioners.  When the diocese, a legal entity votes, the vote applies to the whole, not a part.

The EDFW is a legal entity that is still alive and functioning, and those members of the diocese who wish to remain with TEC may certainly do so by following the procedure set up in the Canons of EDFW.  That is the proper course, not trying to do what the rector of ASFW is doing.  Some have suggested he has his eye on becoming the new bishop of the new diocese.  Perhaps, but can anyone imagine being under the spritual authority of such a one as this?  God deliver all of those who wish to remain with TEC from this.

Some who have posted here are concerned that there are no signatures on the letter to the parish.  I am confident that the rector knows full well who is behind this letter.  I am also confident that they are not cowards.  Rather they are very determined to not allow this rector to high jack the parish with false information and underhanded tactics.  The rector of ASFW is not acting honorably, but with desparate actions intended to gain power for himself.  Power is a spiritual force that will pull him into it’s vortex and destroy him if he continues on this path.  I pray he repents before this happens.

This was an interesting response from Fr. Fred Barber, of Trinity Fort Worth, to criticism from a couple of parishioners in his church.  Let the reader decide if they are or are not a liberal bastion:

http://www.fortworthtrinity.org/misc pdf files/Werely response final release_2_.pdf
The reason I posted this on this thread is because Barber and Jambor have been working together to undermine the rightful bishop, Bishop Iker.

The link didn’t take. Here is the text:
This week, I received an e-mail from a friend: it was the last page of a communication
that was sent from Gary and Cora Werley.  The Werleys did not send me a copy, but I
understand that it has been widely distributed in the diocese.  The Werleys are still
members of Trinity church, but have not attended since the beginning of the year.  This is
the paragraph that made reference to Trinity Church: 
“At our home parish of Trinity in Fort Worth, the past years (since Gene
Robinson’s confirmation as Bishop particularly) have brought us many changes:
a gay priest (claiming celibacy but still an active revisionist), an actively lesbian
organist with two children who left husband who was also a member of the
church, lesbian lay readers, chalice bearers and altar guild members (just to
name those at the altar), and at least one lesbian member who is now seeking
ordination, lesbian members who kiss on the lips when passing the peace, support
for all visits by high-profile members of the gay agenda (including Louie Crew,
who wrote the original article charting a course for gay Episcopalians to “take
over” the church, very enlightening reading!), and a listing on the “gay-friendly”
website as the church for those looking for same in Fort Worth.  Trinity has also
started an organization like REGS and has decided to stay in TEC no matter
what, losing many of its orthodox members, many of whom have raised their
children there and supported the church with time talent and treasure for
decades” 
Frankly, I reacted with some anger to this statement, and prepared a long and detailed
response.  Upon reflection, I discarded that response.  Rather, let me say that most of
what the Werleys say is true!  We have a Sunday attendance of over 300 per Sunday
and our rolls list over a thousand communicants; yet I know of only nine people in our
congregation who have shared with me that they are gay.  No doubt there are more. 
One is our organist of 25 plus years.  One is a lifelong Episcopalian who does serve as
layreader, chalice bearer, and labors with our altar guild.  Trinity is grateful for their
ministry and their presence among us.  Louie Crew did surprise us by attending Sunday
services at Trinity when he was in town; we welcomed him at our altar. We are listed as a
gay friendly church on a website, a distinction that we did not seek nor were we aware of
until told by others.  If gay people find this a pace where they can worship, I believe we
are fulfilling a gospel mandate.  I am told that an otherwise discreet lesbian couple (now
transferred) did peck each other on the lips during the peace (Fr. Bill and I never noticed
this). Trinity does intend to remain in the Episcopal Church, even though we are in
disagreement with some of its actions.  Some of our members did help form a new group
of traditional Episcopalians (Steadfast Episcopalians) who wish to remain with the
Episcopal Church.  (Visit the website at http://steadfastfw.org)
Having confirmed these things, let me go on.  There are things that Gary and Cora have
not shared with you.  I confess to you that there are instances where people at Trinity
Church have not measured up to the biblical norm: There are people who have committed
adultery in our congregation.  There are people who are divorced and have re-married. 
We have people who have born false witness, not honored their parents, taken the Lord’s
name in vain, taken what was not theirs. As far as I know, we currently have no
2
murderers. The congregation, as a whole, has botched most of the commandments and
many of the teachings of Jesus and the injunctions of Paul.
In short, we are a motley band of imperfect Christians working to put our lives on a better
path with the help of our Lord. Most of us are not as bold in pointing out the sins of
others, because we remember our own sins and our own imperfections. But perhaps some
are called to that special ministry. 
There is one item in Gary and Cora’s letter that I would like to clarify. We have a woman
that Trinity Church has supported and sponsored in the ordination process.  She
graduated from seminary last month, and was recently approved for ordination by the
standing committee of the diocese of Dallas. Bishop Iker helped Trinity establish her in
the Dallas ordination process.  She is a mother of three daughters and a grandmother. 
She is not gay. There is another woman now in seminary who is a former member of
Trinity (she now lives in another state).  She is not formally supported in her seminary
education by Trinity, nor has she asked for our support. However, many of the people and
clergy of Trinity support her with their prayers and gifts. She is gay, and continues a 20
year relationship with her partner. I assume this is the woman to whom Gary and Cora
are referring. 
I think there is little hope for us here at Trinity Episcopal Church, save for the mercy,
grace and forgiveness of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 
Gary and Cora followed their paragraph about Trinity with some pieces of Scripture. I
would like to follow their example with a scripture that the Trinity community takes quite
seriously:  Matthew 7:1-5 (Good News Bible): 
1
Don’t condemn others, and God won’t condemn you. 2God will be as hard on you
as you are on others! He will treat you exactly as you treat them.  3You can see
the speck in your friend’s eye, but you don’t notice the log in your own eye. 4How
can you say, “My friend, let me take the speck out of your eye,” when you don’t
see the log in your own eye? 5You’re nothing but show-offs! First, take the log out
of your own eye. Then you can see how to take the speck out of your friend’s eye. 
Please pray for us, and we will continue to pray for all the churches of our diocese.  I
hope God can lead us to a way to remain united and a part of the Episcopal Church. 
Fr. Fred Barber, Rector

Gary and Cora Werley…great folks!!!!!!!  They have had immeasurable patience with Trinity and did much for that parish in prayer and support…but I guess there comes a time when one dusts off the sandals…

TXthurifer, thanks for asking sisterinChrist the question I was going to ask: What about #72’s questions that she first ignored? 

sisterinChrist, what about TEC’s support of abortion?  How do you interpret Psalm 139:13-16 ?

Your blogname brings another question to mind?  What exactly is your understanding of what it means to be “in Christ”?  What differentiates such a person from someone who is not “in Christ”?  Listen to your own words and perhaps you will begin to understand why many here (perhaps myself also) get the impression that you may in fact believe a different Gospel that belongs in a different church.

It drives me nuts to have clergy talk about “Scripture, tradition, and reason,” and then show grievous ignorance of all three, as so many revisionist clergy do.  Of course the Church is composed of sinners - there is no one else available! Fr Barber is quite right on that point.  But there is a huge difference between admitting that we all fail daily to live up to what we should be doing, which any honest person would have to admit, and exempting people from the need to repent of their sins and to seek, depending upon the wisdom and the power of the Holy Spirit, to live ever closer to what God has shown us he desires.

In 1 Cor 6, Paul names a number of very obvious and dreadful sins - and then goes on to say, “And such were some of you.”  He nowhere blesses anyone in his or her sins - he keeps on speaking of transformed lives and of resurrection power to apprehend that transforming power in one’s own life.

It is one thing to have a person with same-sex attraction in ministry.  It is quite another to allow such a person to exercise ministry and at the same time continue in same-sex sexual activity.  Fr Barber is excusing the inexcusable with the claim that none of us can help the besetting sins that we all have in one form or another.

You are exactly right, AnglicanXn!  And it doesn’t matter that it is same-sex as much as it does that it is outside the bonds of holy matrimony.  I am a divorced person who faces opposite-sex attraction daily…the difference is not that mine is opposite-sex attraction, it is that I don’t act on it!  The “acting on it” is what makes it a sin—either way!

Looks like Trinity needs it’s own thread.

From Pro Ominbus Sanctis, December 30, 2008, Newsletter from All Saints Episcopal Church, Fort Worth

Charting the Way Forward

With the declaration by the Presiding Bishop on Dec. 5 that Bishop Iker has renounced his ministry in the Episcopal Church, All Saints’ and approximately one dozen other continuing missions and parishes for the time being find themselves in ecclesiastical limbo.

The Diocese of Fort Worth’s Standing Committee and Executive Council, which under normal circumstances would exercise ecclesiastical authority in the absence of a bishop, also were found to have left the Episcopal Church (save for one member of the Executive Council), through their participation in actions which resulted in a realignment of the diocese with the Province of the Southern Cone.

Diocesan assets on which All Saints’ would ordinarily be able to draw are for now inaccessible. For lack of an entity with standing to receive its diocesan assessment, All Saints’ is temporarily placing those funds in escrow.

“The situation we find ourselves in is not unlike what you’d see following the detonation of a bomb in a populated area,” says the Rev. Christopher N. Jambor, rector of All Saints’. “Through the Pastoral Center set up here at All Saints’ in early December, we’re trying to contact survivors and assess the extent and severity of the damage, so that we can begin repairing and rebuilding what was destroyed.”

All Saints’ and other intact remnants of The Episcopal Church must now formally reconstitute themselves as TEC’s authorized diocese within the 24-county region.

“Although this effort has been characterized by some as an attempt to create a new diocese, it is in fact simply the shoring up of an established diocese from which significant numbers of clergy and laity have abruptly exited,” says Fr. Jambor.

The necessary parliamentary business will be conducted at a special convention scheduled for Saturday, Feb. 7, at a site yet to be determined. Topping the agenda will be the replacement of the six-member Standing Committee that vacated for the Southern Cone in November.

It is also expected that a vote will be taken on whether to accept a supervisory bishop proposed by Presiding Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schiori to serve as an interim administrator until an election for a new diocesan bishop can be held.

The Presiding Bishop will celebrate and preach at the convention’s opening Eucharist. After ceremonially gaveling the convention into session, she will hand over to local leaders the job of running the meeting.

Does anyone see anything erroneous in all of this?

. . .actions which resulted in a realignment of the diocese with the Province of the Southern Cone

And then:

“Although this effort has been characterized by some as an attempt to create a new diocese, it is in fact simply the shoring up of an established diocese from which significant numbers of clergy and laity have abruptly exited,” says Fr. Jambor.

Either the Epsicopal Diocese of Fort Worth realigned with the Province of the Southern Cone, or only some clergy and laity “have abruptly left.”

Does this sound a bit war like?

“The situation we find ourselves in is not unlike what you’d see following the detonation of a bomb in a populated area,” says the Rev. Christopher N. Jambor, rector of All Saints’. “Through the Pastoral Center set up here at All Saints’ in early December, we’re trying to contact survivors and assess the extent and severity of the damage, so that we can begin repairing and rebuilding what was destroyed.”

The damage was done when TEC abandoned Scripture to follow the god of this age.  The “bomb” was dropped when Viki Gene was confirmed as Bishop, and then a second “bomb” was dropped when Katy was confirmed, first as a bishop, and then as Presiding Bishop.  All of this is contrary to the clear doctrine of Scripture.

Now, do you see why the letter was sent?

By the way, the same issue of Pro Ominbus Sanctis mentioned that Fr. Rogers is leaving along with Matt Maples.  Looks like Jambor is cleaning house.  I guess this is war as far as he is concerned.  Having been in an actual war, I find it particularly reprehensible for a rector to wage this kind of war against his own flock.  Woe to the Shepherds ~ Jer. 23.

But look on the bright side, Jambor will have lots of help in his preparations for the special convention. Acording to Fort Worth Integrity, they WILL have a presence at this special convention on February 7th and they are making the arrangements and the preparations now.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out.  Jambor and company think they are having a convention to elect people to serve in positions for the “shoring up of an established diocese.” They are going to be very surprised when they find out the corporate entity of the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth is not theirs to play with.  See http://commonwealthreport.blogspot.com for an explanation of the legal status of EDFW.

Whatever they do on February 7, 2009, will not have any legal significance because they lack the authority to conduct any business as the EDFW.  And since there is no other diocese currently in existence, they will be acting outside of the canons of TEC.  Oh, wait!  That is the SOP (standard operating procedure) of TEC, so it won’t matter to the Bishopette if it is legal or not.  She is, after all, Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland.

Thanks for the link. It is a very good explanation that ... even a caveman could understand.

MP, I’m sorry to have to disagree with you, but this has nothing at all to do with perspective and everything to do with the law.  The business of the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth is governed by law.  The status of the entity that is the EDFW is governed by law.  None of this is governed by perspective. 

Inevitably, one who has adopted the relativist way of looking at issues, such as the church, will come to believe that everything depends upon one’s perspective, one’s point of view.  What is right to you is not right to me.  There is no absolute right or wrong, only shades of both.

Sadly, that is just how we got into this mess in the first place.  The Word of God is not subject to relativism, it does not depend upon one’s perspective.  When scripture says that a bishop is to be the husband of one wife, it does not depend upon my perspective to understand that.  The current PB does not qualify.  And the fact that TEC, at General Convention, elected her means that way too many of those voting agree with you that it all depends on perspective.  When scripture says that homosexuality is an abomination before the Lord and that those who practice it have no place in the Kingdom of God, it does not depend on my perspective to understand that.  Gene Robinson does not qualify for the Kingdom and, therefore, cannot be a bishop. Either scripture says what it means and means what it says, or it means nothing at all.  For the leaders of TEC, scripture means nothing at all. I cannot follow that leadership.

MP, by the way, the Southern Cone is a province, not a diocese.  And the Texas corporation known as the Corporation of the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth is not a new diocese.  I’ve heard none argue that it is.  It is the only diocese that has existed in this part of Texas since it was created out of the Diocese of Dallas in 1983.  Finally, if those who wish to stay in TEC wish to be in a diocese, they must form one, because the one that was here is no longer available to them.  That’s not pespective, it’s fact.

Is Katherine Burk related to Dr. John Burk?

Stephanie Burk is his wife. I don’t know who Katherine is.

Thanks. I messed up the first name. Interesting that John Burk is a delegate, and his wife is serving on the vestry again. You would think in a church of that size they could find new blood for leadership.

Not when you’re trying to stack the vestry!

An earlier poster said it was absurd to think Jambor didn’t want to be a bishop. After reading the latest newsletter, it is absurd to think he doesn’t want to be a bishop. He is well on his way, sister.

New blood? Not likely. People are resigning from their positions and those thousands of ‘survivors’ have not been found yet to replace them.

I.E. said in post 111: “Gene Robinson does not qualify for the Kingdom and, therefore, cannot be a bishop.”

Hey, why don’t you tell God you’re ready to do his job?  You’re GREAT at judging people.

As for my knowing Fr. Jambor….and my knowledge of him: it goes beyond what your ‘ideas’ of him might be, hellcat.

Now.  Why doesn’t the writer of this annonymous letter stand up and identify himself?

#106…I knew Matt was leaving and knew a clergyperson or two might…blessings in your walk, Mr. Maples and Fr. Rogers+...that took courage to leave a position in a large parish and throw yourselves out there…but the Lord is Faithful and True and will bless you…

Well…if a new “bishop” is “consecrated” for the new FW TEC entity, then KJS will be likely be chief “consecrator”...ewww…she just “consecrated” the coadjutor for The Diocese of TX…Doyle’s validity will be put further and further into doubt.  That diocese is getting ickier.

I.E. wrote:  “For the leaders of TEC, scripture means nothing at all. I cannot follow that leadership.”

If you believe that, do what you apparently are doing, and go somewhere else for leadership.  Big deal.  Be responsible for your own spiritual leadership and your relationship with God.  Don’t leave it in the hands of a few bishops.

Spending all this energy to attack another man to feel better about yourself somehow is senseless.

Problem being that what they do effects the whole communion and Christendom…I take issue that they continue to lie to uninformed people who somehow still believe their church isn’t effected locally by this junk.  When the Bishop of Dallas said that “Nothing connects us to New York.”, he lost me.  That takes a lot of pretending.  You cannot be tied to an entity on paper and not reap the spiritual blessings or curses of said leaders in authority…however little they are in authority.  I was made aware of how some leaders supporting the Covenant are looking at how they can keep people in the pews from being “unnecessarily concerned” by what goes on at 815 and on down…probably afraid that if they knew, they might not wanna stay around…

ChrisJ, I am not the one who judged Gene Robinson.  God has already done that.  Perhaps you haven’t read what God told the children of Israel in the Law:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. ~ Leviticus 18:22,

And perhaps you have not read what St. Paul wrote in his epistle to the church in Corinth:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. ~ 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or what St. Paul wrote to Timothy:

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers — and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. ~ 1 Timothy 6:8-11

If one practices homosexual behavior, if one is an unrepentant practicing homosexual, like Gene Robinson, scripture says such a person is an abomination to God, cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and is contrary to the sound doctine of the gospel.  I am not the one who came up with this.  I can, however, read and understand scripture.

By the way, before you bring it up, the passage from 1 Timothy uses the word “perverts” and not “homosexual.”  Lest you jump to the conclusion that there is a difference, let me tell you that the Greek word translated “perverts” is ὰρσενοκοἰης - arsenokoites - which according to Strong is “a sodomite - abuser of (one’s) self with mankind, defiler of (one’s) self with mankind. This word means one who lies with a male as with a female; he is a sodomite; a homosexual.” (Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 2001)

I’m sorry if this offends you, and I’m sorry you mistake me for the judge.  There is only one Judge, God Almighty. God’s judgment is based on his unchanging nature and word. He does not make room for our amendment of scripture to suit our own pesonal opinions.

AnnJ wrote: If you believe that, do what you apparently are doing, and go somewhere else for leadership.  Big deal.  Be responsible for your own spiritual leadership and your relationship with God.  Don’t leave it in the hands of a few bishops.

Spending all this energy to attack another man to feel better about yourself somehow is senseless.

Thank you AnnJ for giving me permission to do what God has already told me to do.  I am seeking Him.  I am abiding by His word.  I am applying that word to my own spiritual direction and my salvation, working out my salvation with fear and trembling.  I am not now, nor have I ever been dependent upon “a few bishops” to be responsible for my relationship with God.  I sincerely hope you are not doing that, for if you are, you are being mislead.

And, by the way, I am not “attacking” any man.  I am, however standing firmly planted on the “faith once delivered” and upon the word of God. False teachers are in our midst, and they are under condemnation from God, not me.  It is every believer’s responsibility to oppose false teachers whenever they arise.  Read 2 Peter 2. Here is the beginning of that chapter.  Read the whole thing for yourself.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. ~ 2 Peter 2:1-3

Please read God’s word, meditate on the scriptures.  Then you will see much more clearly.  Simply listening to what the bishops say is dangerous.  Work our your own salvation and never depend on another man or woman for your relationship with God.

Jambor is anything but a victim.  If anyone has made stealth and overt attacks it is your bishop-in-waiting.  Just ask his victims.

Immortalitas Equestris,
I have to say Bravo! I admire your responses here and I wish I was able to convey they way you do to those I talk with. i will ask God for help in that arena! But, I have to say that I fear that those to whom you maybe addressing may not read the passages in the Bible that you have provided and I and many have read and re-read countless times. Probably for many varying reasons, i.e. those might be ones that have been omitted by the revision of the BCP and have gotten left out so they do not get heard by many who may find them offensive and well, just plain not pleasant because after all they come to church to feel good not get healed by the Word but to bade to feel good about themselves, many may not read their own Bibles and only get their readings from their Sunday Services only, or maybe they are reading the their own Bibles but only the verses that make them feel good!
None the less….thank you for your posts as I have thoroughly enjoyed them!
God’s Blessings and Happy New Year

#121
Brave and faithful though they are, it is not necessarily the case that Matthew and Fr. Rogers left All Saints of their own volition.

monika

How right you are, Monika. Their bravery came from standing firm for their faith.

#129

Amen!!

monika

Monica and Martin5, you are right about Fr. Rogers and Matt Maples were courageous in standing firm on their faith.  They were pushed out for their stand.  Keep them in your prayers.

There’s news here with Mr. Jambor - here (site I don’t ordinarly link to).

This is pretty strong language.

“You have abandoned The Episcopal Church. We have chosen not to. As a result of this decision you made, you gave up your authority you had over the parishes in the Episcopal Church.”

“We simply cannot take orders from you and we will not, they wrote.”

“We will protect our church, our school, and our parishioners. We just ask that you leave us alone.”

“In a separate letter, Jambor ratchets up the rhetoric with words like “anxiety” and “protect”. Instead of calming his flock, he appears to be causing a stampede.”

It will be interesting to see if PB Schori has any comments on this and an interesting question whether such language is acceptable from parishes who believe that she has abandonned the Church.

My two cents… They must have used an old directory list for sending these letters out. I haven’t been at All Saints’ since ‘07 (I am in a Catholic parish now). But last fall, I also received this letter— with no signature, no return address, no indication as to where it was from, so no way to ask them to take me off their mailing list.

I don’t necessary have anything against the content of the letter—outside of the fact that it does not apply to me, since I am no longer a part of All Saints’. But for heavens sake, I wish they wouldn’t send these out anonymously. It really makes them look bad. And please, at least use a current mailing list! I shouldn’t have gotten any mailings. (And for the record, All Saints’ itself hasn’t included me on mailing lists since ‘07). So, this letter was basically junk mail to me. They wasted a stamp.