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‘A Matter of Urgency’: Inside the Panel of Reference

Wednesday, January 31, 2007 • 8:38 am

Not without reason, it might be suggested that those responsible for the running of the Panel are not only ‘dilatory,’ but also inconsistent in the way that matters are handled.


At the upcoming Tanzania Primates’ meeting, according to The Living Church, Peter Carnley (the chair of the Panel of Reference) “will brief the primates and respond to criticism that the panel has been dilatory in its work.” It will not surprise readers to know that there is increasing unhappiness across the othodox Anglican world, not just for the tortoise-like pace but (with the notable exception of the Fort Worth report) the inadequacy that generally characterizes the Panel’s reports.

The Panel itself was formed following the meeting of the Primates at Dromantine between 20 and 25 February 2005 where they discussed the finished Windsor Report and, as part of their communiqué, they stated:

In order to protect the integrity and legitimate needs of groups in serious theological dispute with their diocesan bishop, or dioceses in dispute with their Provinces, we recommend that the Archbishop of Canterbury appoint, as a matter of urgency, a panel of reference to supervise the adequacy of pastoral provisions made by any churches for such members in line with the recommendation in the Primates’ Statement of October 2003 (xii).

The Panel was given its mandate shortly thereafter (6 May 2005) and almost immediately received a number of applications from various parties. The Panel itself met in plenary session in the middle of July 2005. Despite this start, as of Christmas that same year the members of the Panel had not received a single reference. Since then the Panel appears to have been nothing but “dilatory” in its proceedings with only 2 actual reports produced; Fort Worth in December of 2006 (PDF) and, prior to that, New Westminster in October 2006 (PDF).

Applications made by the Connecticut Six were rejected by the Chair of the Panel, Peter Carnley because (amongst other reasons)  the parties were in litigation. This has, in hindsight, surprised a number of us since in the dispute arising in the Diocese of Florida applications from (received by the Panel on 10 May 2006) and a visit to the various parties (26-29 September 2006) were made while litigation was ongoing1. We understand from a source close to the Panel that this visit was authorised by the chair, Peter Carnley, himself.

Not without reason, then, it might be suggested that those responsible for the running of the Panel are not only dilatory but also inconsistent in the way that matters are handled.

But what of the reports themselves? The dismissal of the Fort Worth report by the President of TEC House of Deputies, Bonnie Anderson, is already on record. The report concerning New Westminster, however, appears to have dropped off the radar, so we thought it might be useful to reacquaint our readers with that situation.

One referer to the Panel, Rev. David Short of St John’s, (Shaughnessy) in the Diocese of New Westminster, is strikingly clear in his assessment of the Panel’s process. Speaking to us he said, “The Panel of Reference has failed the parishes in New Westminster.”

That was quite a bold statement so I asked him to explain what lay behind it.

From the beginning, Short told us, the process appeared to be “managed” by the chair, Carnley, and the Anglican Communion Office (ACO), in particular the Secretary General Kenneth Kearon, recently revealed as being less than unbiased in his handling of the current crisis. They were refused permission to meet with the Panel in London and the whole application was reframed in terms of legal process with the language of “plaintiff”, “applicant” and so on used in correspondence. This is a far cry from the pastoral approach that Short was hoping for.

In between the initial application by St. John’ s and others and the visit of 2 Panel members the ACO was in regular contact with the Diocese but not the other party and, when they finally arrived, they refused to meet with all the appealing parishes, representatives of the then “Anglican Communion Network in New Westminster” (ACNiNW), nor leaders of the congregations. It became quite clear that the Primate of Canada, Andrew Hutchison, was directly involved in the process - all the more so when after meeting with some of the parties over 2 days the Panel representatives then had a lengthy meeting with him on the third day despite his not being a party in the original application. Already it was clear to Short that there was a degree of interference in the process going on that was being allowed and even encouraged by Carnley and the ACO.

When the report was released, Short had mixed feelings about it.

“There are a number of things about the Report that are generally helpful - it recognises that the decisions and actions of the Diocese are one of the sources of the current tension. It also notes their intransigence in not taking on the recommendations of the Windsor Report. It also catalogues the hostile action they have taken against us and recognises that the Canadian oversight provisions are inadequate”.

However, these positive observations were more than negated by the failure of the report to properly understand and tackle the true nature of the dispute. In particular,

  1. It equated the problem of territorial boundary crossing with that of “doctrinal boundary crossing” whereas it was clear in the minds of Short and others that the latter was of a far greater scale.
  2. It reframed the whole crisis in the Diocese in terms of “old pals not getting along with each other” in a way that completely ignored the depths of the theological nature of the dispute. Para. 6 of the report spoke of “a temporary breakdown in relationships” and thus deeply underplayed the seriousness of the issue which Short and others had communicated to them.
  3. There was “not one syllable” calling on the Diocese to comply with the requirements of the Windsor Report, despite previously recognising that non-compliance had, up to that point, aggravated the situation.
  4. That at the heart of the report is an erroneous understanding of episcopal jurisdiction - namely that it cannot be delegated, (contrary to para. 152 of the Windsor Report).

By producing what Short refers to as a “no-solution” and failing to call the Diocese to account the report,

“...institutionalises schism by supporting the jurisdiction of a Bishop who has, with his Diocese, enacted what is schismatic and against the teaching of the scriptures and the Communion and caused ecumenical embarassment.” and thus “...demonstrates to the Diocese and Bishop that they can unilaterally reverse the teaching of scripture and tradition with absolute impunity”.

What is more than clear is that three is absolutely no intent on the part of Bishop Ingham or his Diocese to reverse their contentious position on same-sex marriage.

The “no-solution” has left Short and his colleagues in great difficulty. For five years they have been unable to employ more clergy and are under constant threat from the Diocese so that they use spend money that would be better spent on direct gospel work in employing lawyers to ensure there is adequate legal protection. Short still spends up to one and a half days a week on these matters. More than that, the Anglican Pension Board of Canada recently attempted to cut them off from medical and pension benefits. Short is not so much concerned for himself in this but for a number of his colleagues this is a real issue. One has a wife in remission from cancer and another clergy wife has a severe lung condition requiring drugs costing around $1,000 per month. These are directly threatened by the Board’s action.

So why, I asked him, with all this trouble does he continue the fight? And why not seek alternate oversight from a foreign bishop as so many others have done? His answer comes quickly and clearly:

  1. Where else do they go from Anglicanism? What arrangements do they come to?  They are, after all, not the ones who have moved. It is the Diocese, not them, that has decided to walk apart.
  2. They are also trying to act in a way that’s going to help as many people across the country as possible to hold to the gospel. If they race off they may hurt people in other parts of Canada who have very little power, money or publicity for their own persecution. They have, instead, chosen to stand with parishes all across the country in a structure known as the Anglican Network in Canada.
  3. Short is convinced that part of gospel ministry is contending for the truth, not just proclamation. In their context that means an agonising political stance.

Agonising indeed, particularly since those very structures that were meant to support them have failed in that task.

As the report on New Westminster was being finalised a team from the Panel went out to meet disputants in the TEC Diocese of Florida. Here, again, we have seen evidence of negative interference by Carnley and the ACO. It is our understanding that a final draft report was ready for approval in December 2006 but its release was delayed because of a number of amendments and clarifications requested by Carnley that could have been suggested much earlier, and by input from a senior member of Canterbury’s staff, again at the express request of Carnley and Cameron.

Not only this, but it appears that deliberate attempts are being made to change the tenor of the report. We have been provided with copies of both the draft report from the end of December and also the draft narrative section of that report which was sent in January to both sides in the dispute for their agreement. Missing from that second draft was a key paragraph in the section outlining the wider context of the dispute. That deleted paragraph reads as follows:

In a considered response to the ongoing crisis the Archbishop of Canterbury delivered in June 2006 a statement to the Anglican Communion entitled “Challenge and Hope”. He endorses the proposal for establishing an Anglican Covenant and anticipates varying responses to this development. He foresaw “a situation where there were ‘constituent’ Churches in covenant in the Anglican Communion and other ‘churches in association’, which were still bound by historic and perhaps personal links, fed from many of the same sources, but not bound in a single and unrestricted sacramental communion, and not sharing the same constitutional structures”.

In the context of the report the purpose of the paragraph is clear. It signals that there is to be a change in the future structure of the Communion that will have a direct bearing on the proposed solutions contained later in the draft report. Removing the paragraph eliminates this sense of trajectory and undermines the solution more likely to be favoured by the parishes in the dispute. That solution seeks to provide adequate structures while both parties await “a new situation linked with a Communion-wide resolution of the controversy”.

To remove the paragraph, then, is to underplay deliberately the almost inevitable realignment that is occurring around us.

In mid-February Peter Carnley will have to explain to the Primates (who he previously sat amongst) why the Panel of Reference, set up “as a matter of urgency” appears to be operating with anything but a sense of urgency, and its leadership show every sign of being biased in their important task. More than that, our sources tell us that there is growing anxiety amongst members of the Panel at these issues and an unhappiness with the way Carnley has facilitated matters (or not, as the case may be). We thought it best that there should be transparency in this so that a full and frank conversation might be had between the Primates, Carnley, Kearon and others.


1 The Diocese commenced civil proceedings 27 March 2006, Case No:16-2006-CA-2361.Division: CV-B, Circuit Court, 4th Judicial Circuit, Duval County, Florida


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Comments:

The way the faithful parishes in New Westminister and Connecticut have been hung out to dry by the Panel of Reference is shameful. 

The Archbishop of Canterbury bears responsibility for this.  He certainly did not treat the appointment of the Panel as very urgent.  And when he finally got around to it, he made poor appointments.

[1] Posted by Newbie Anglican on 01-31-2007 at 09:50 AM • top

The Panel’s leadership is clearly at fault here.  Carnley should never have been appointed, and neither should Kearon..

[2] Posted by Cennydd on 01-31-2007 at 10:14 AM • top

It is my firm believe that the ABC and the AC would actually be happy if all the traditionalist, orthodox Anglicans left and started their own communion, then the CofE, TEC, ect could continue to go their merry way with no one to stand in their way. I firmly believe that many within contemporary Anglicanism want their own way. THe ABC has been repeatedly told by Vatican officials that if the CofE begins consecrating women bishops that it would push any hope of reunion into the far distant future but General Synod will do it anyway and then they will all wonder why the only true ecumenical dialogue for the Anglican CHurch will be liberal protestantism, ie, the United CHurch of Christ, the United Methodist, and other groups as liberal or worse than TEC.

[3] Posted by FrRick on 01-31-2007 at 11:30 AM • top

Re: “The dismissal of the Fort Worth report by the President of TEC House of Deputies, Bonnie Anderson…” I heard about this on the Anglican TV report, but what does it mean in terms of final outcomes? Is what Ms. Anderson said the last word, or will it go to the House of Bishops?

[4] Posted by DavidSh on 01-31-2007 at 11:45 AM • top

Many serious factual inaccuracies here….

[5] Posted by dogmatix on 01-31-2007 at 12:24 PM • top

dogmatix,

We’re listening…

[6] Posted by Greg Griffith on 01-31-2007 at 12:26 PM • top

Why are we listening?

[7] Posted by Cennydd on 01-31-2007 at 12:43 PM • top

Well, because dogmatix says there are ‘serious factual inaccuracies here.’ I assume he’s going to be more specific.

[8] Posted by Greg Griffith on 01-31-2007 at 12:47 PM • top

We are all eager to learn by hearing from dogmatix about the many factual inaccuracies in this post.

[9] Posted by Sarah on 01-31-2007 at 01:11 PM • top

Where is here, dogmatix?

[10] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 01-31-2007 at 01:20 PM • top

I am absolutely certain that he is presently preparing a detailed and accurate critique…

[11] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 01-31-2007 at 01:20 PM • top

Gee guys, I sure hope you’re not holding your breath. You are going to awfully blue before you hear back from dogmatix. wink

the snarkster

[12] Posted by the snarkster on 01-31-2007 at 01:35 PM • top

Many serious factual inaccuracies here….

Well, start a list. Here’s the space:

“Factual inaccuracies”
1.
2.
3.
etc.

[13] Posted by David Ould on 01-31-2007 at 03:22 PM • top

Hmm, 4:48 p.m. CST.  How much longer will we have to wait?

[14] Posted by JackieB on 01-31-2007 at 04:48 PM • top

Anybody blue yet? We may be on to a good troll repellent here.

the snarkster

[15] Posted by the snarkster on 01-31-2007 at 04:51 PM • top

A good troll repellent?  Well, if you can bottle it, put me down for a case.

[16] Posted by Dr. Mabuse on 01-31-2007 at 09:03 PM • top

Well…my breath has been bated long enough…I guess it’s time to go do something else for fun like watch the paint dry on the garden wall.

[17] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 01-31-2007 at 09:58 PM • top

Don’t mean to change the subject.  The PoR is (theoretically) an important matter in its own right.  But I would have preferred that TECusa’s internal panels would be less dilatory.  At least we got a definitive (if unsatisfactory) response from the PoR.  By contrast, the ctsix.org website shows that it’s been 530 days (and counting) since ecclesiastical complaints were filed against Andrew Smith, so-called bishop of Connecticut.  (I love it when the press calls us the “so-called” CT6, so I thought I’d try it out for myself.)  The Church Attorney wrapped up his investigation months ago (about a year behind schedule, though I’ve no reason to think it’s a result of his own foot dragging.)  So, how about letting the world know whether there will be a presentment or not? 

Sorry.  Now, back to our regular programming…

[18] Posted by Connecticutian on 01-31-2007 at 10:09 PM • top

From a historical perspective, this gives an explanation as to why the ACO is what it is today and why it is so hostile to orthodoxy:
http://all2common.classicalanglican.net/?p=319

- Andy

[19] Posted by The Common Anglican on 01-31-2007 at 10:43 PM • top

This is an excellent piece by David Ould.  And not a single factual error!

[20] Posted by Alice Linsley on 01-31-2007 at 11:14 PM • top

How nice to be missed!

I started work on an essay in reply, which then turned into a dissertation, and was at risk of becoming a tome. So much is wrong, you see.

It is impossible to distil the fruits of such labor into one paragraph, so here’s a hint instead. The PoR is not intended to do the work of the Windsor Report or the Anglican Communion. (Check out its website). Start in the wrong place and you end up lost.

[21] Posted by dogmatix on 02-01-2007 at 03:47 AM • top

I started work on an essay in reply, which then turned into a dissertation, and was at risk of becoming a tome. So much is wrong, you see.

No, as a matter of fact we don’t. But surely such a prolific writer as yourself can summarize the top half-dozen “factual errors” lickety-split.

[22] Posted by Greg Griffith on 02-01-2007 at 06:29 AM • top

Since Dogmatrix probably won’t return, I’ve taken it upon myself to humbly read his mind and provide his answers:

Well, start a list. Here’s the space:

“Factual inaccuracies”
1.    You are all wrong
2.    Carnley is a wonderful, efficient, perceptive and fair leader.
3.    Canon Kearney should be beatified for his loyalty.
4.    Canon Kearney and the ABC see eye to eye on all matters.
5.    Bonnie Anderson is a far-seeing, sage with the gift of
      prophecy and she is actually in support of Fort worth in a
      very subtle way.
4.    You should all be wearing thongs and leather. 
etc.
Every controlling,
Yours,
Dominatrix

[23] Posted by Bill C on 02-01-2007 at 07:26 AM • top

So anxious to tell us your fantasies, Dominatrix - that you didn’t even see my reply. I am not surprised.

The whole argument is wrong because it starts with a fundamental misapprehension of the terms of reference of the Panel.  It is not TWR and it is not the Instruments of Communion, and it can only deliver what is legitimate, (see above) as opposed to the unreality manifested here.

[24] Posted by dogmatix on 02-01-2007 at 07:53 AM • top

Dogmatix,
All kidding aside, if you truly have counterpoints, you need to list them.  No need for lengthy explanations.  Your two reply paragraphs fall far far short of factual rebuttal.

[25] Posted by JackieB on 02-01-2007 at 08:03 AM • top

No kidding, the argument falls because it begins in the wrong place. Strangely so, since it begins by reciting what the Panel is for (to supervise the adequacy of pastoral provisions made by any churches) but then proceeds to ignore that very information. The PoR does not have and was never intended by the Primates to have the powers imagined by certain commentators. It is no good blaming it for not doing what people imagine it to be capable of doing. Instead, look at what it has provided in Ft Worth, and New Westminster, which could hardly have happened without its intervention.

There are a number of factual errors and false assertions in the article, but since it is fatally flawed and I haven’t got time to rebut it in detail, I will leave it at that.

[26] Posted by dogmatix on 02-01-2007 at 10:02 AM • top

Dogmatix is still lacking a story to go with the plot line.

And I believe part of the point of David Ould’s post was that the PoR hasn’t provided anything to New Westminster that wouldn’t have been expected without intervention. That is unless we are convinced that everyone is expected and required to genuflect to leadership with bold new thinking and theology.  In which case the PoR nicely reinforced that point.

I’m going back to watching the paint dry.

[27] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 02-01-2007 at 10:24 AM • top

Ah yes, the old “I don’t have time to tell you how you’re wrong” bit. That one never gets old.

[28] Posted by Greg Griffith on 02-01-2007 at 10:35 AM • top

Dogmatix,

If there are so many fatal flaws, perhaps you could just list them. I mean if they are factual errors it should not require an “argument.”

My guess is that you have listed nothing because you have nothing.

AS for the purpose of the POR. I think you seem to be reading something into David’s argument that is not there. No where does he suggest that the POR is anything other than a body to investigate claims and make recommendations. He does, however, suggest, and rightly so, that the POR has been inept and dillatory and, perhaps, some members intentionally so.

[29] Posted by Matt Kennedy on 02-01-2007 at 10:37 AM • top

dogmatix:

If it would save you time, maybe you could just post one, we could discuss it, and then when you have some more time you could post another, and so on.

[30] Posted by James Manley on 02-01-2007 at 10:41 AM • top

Dog, you state: “I started work on an essay in reply, which then turned into a dissertation, and was at risk of becoming a tome. So much is wrong, you see.  It is impossible to distil the fruits of such labor into one paragraph…”
then later you state: “but since it is fatally flawed and I haven’t got time to rebut it in detail, I will leave it at that.”.

I must ask, was the time you spent on your dissertation not sufficient to ‘rebut it in detail’?

Bottom-line for us ‘faithful remnant’ is that once again the Primates asked for action from the ABC and once again he passed the buck by forming a committee that ‘listened’ but tool little or no real action.  A pattern that many have expounded on here.  If he can do the same in Tanzania (and even Kendall seems to think he will), our little stone bridge has ceased to be winable - at least in my lifetime.  INnotsoHO.
“Pray without ceasing” ...

[31] Posted by Wilkie on 02-01-2007 at 11:00 AM • top

OK, so perhaps you guys can tell the Archbishop where the magic wand is hidden and he can use it to fix the Anglican Communion, Global Warming, and my computer while he is using it.

You seem to know better than him, the Panel and everyone else. But as always, no solutions beyond fantasies.

[32] Posted by dogmatix on 02-01-2007 at 11:35 AM • top

I thought the magic wand was hidden in your computer.  You were the one with the list factual errors and inaccurate assertions that was too long to post.

If we sound snarky and funny, it’s because we listened to someone make a claim of so many inaccuracies in David Ould’s post that should be pointed out.  Now we’re waiting for the list and occupying ourselves with the speculation of people waiting in line for the premiere and release of the new Potter book.

[33] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 02-01-2007 at 11:42 AM • top

Dogmatix,
Whether you have a tome,a copy of War and Peace,a copy of the Iranian Nuclear Plant specs,we’d just like to see the abridged version instead of banter and excuses.
You’re excused if your dog eats your computer.

[34] Posted by paddy on 02-01-2007 at 11:54 AM • top

I think it is safe to say at this point that there isn’t an abundance of factual errors in the original post.

[35] Posted by James Manley on 02-01-2007 at 11:55 AM • top

From the Panel’s mandate, here:

3. The functions of the Panel shall be:

  1. At my request to enquire into, consider and report on situations drawn to my attention where there is serious dispute concerning the adequacy of schemes of delegated or extended episcopal oversight or other extraordinary arrangements which may be needed to provide for parishes which find it impossible in all conscience to accept the direct ministry of their own diocesan bishop or for dioceses in dispute with their provincial authorities
  2. With my consent to make recommendations to the Primates, dioceses and provincial and diocesan authorities concerned, and to report to me on their response
  3. At the request of any Primate to provide a facility for mediation and to assist in the implementation of any such scheme in his own province.

Provided always that the Panel shall in consultation with me have power to determine which classes or categories of cases fall within its competency to consider in line with the concerns expressed by the primates at their meetings in Dromantine in February 2005 and in Lambeth Palace in October 2003.

Thus to “consider and report”—presumably with firm conclusions and recommendations—is specifically what the PoR is supposed to do.  This makes it a quasi-judicial body (since it is recommending solutions to conflicts), and by long tradition, such bodies have a responsibility to impartially hear and deal with the concerns of both sides in the matter.  The essay above speaks both to their dilatory pace in considering cases and their apparent lack of impartiality.

None of the commenters here expect the PoR to have any canonical powers to implement its recommendations, but the content of the recommendations themselves are unconstrained by its mandate.  I’m afraid Dogmatix’ accusation makes little sense.  Surprise, surprise.

[36] Posted by Craig Goodrich on 02-01-2007 at 12:04 PM • top

Whether you have a tome,a copy of War and Peace,a copy of the Iranian Nuclear Plant specs,we’d just like to see the abridged version instead of banter and excuses.

I’d be happy with a single, solitary “correction.”

[37] Posted by Greg Griffith on 02-01-2007 at 12:34 PM • top

Well, Greg, here’s one example (since you so gracefully insist).

The Panel’s mandate quoted just above notes in 3.2 that the primate of the province concerned is to receive the recommendations of the panel. But the Ould article practically accuses the Panel of conspiring with the Canadian primate, although he (or any other primate) is very much a party to the process in the province concerned as a named recipient.

Impartiality - yes! Let’s have some here! (That means understanding the mandate, and toning down the conspiracy theories, dudes.)

[38] Posted by dogmatix on 02-01-2007 at 01:50 PM • top

OK, here’s the deal: Whatever you think the POR is supposed to do, they are not doing it, at least in a timely manner. They are dragging their feet and that is indisputable. The most likely reason is that they are ideologically indisposed to fulfill their plainly stated mandate or they may have all just had to wash their hair or something. Whatever the reason is, they are NOT performing as mandated. How anyone can say that is factually untrue is beyond me. We should really change their name to the Panel of Deference.

the snarkster

[39] Posted by the snarkster on 02-01-2007 at 01:52 PM • top

Get real Dogmatix! When the POR is in direct communication with the primate who is the cause of the referral to begin with and refuses to meet any of the parties who initiated the referral request, that indicates bias against the complainants and preferential treatment of ++Hutchinson. How is that factually incorrect? If that is the best you can do, you need to fold your tent and go away.

the snarkster

[40] Posted by the snarkster on 02-01-2007 at 02:01 PM • top

That’s funny, snarkster, the cause of the referral was actually the diocese of New Westminster, not the Primate. The panel met both the parties in New Westminster - the representatives of the congregations, and those of the diocese.  It advised Hutchison of its recommendations, according to its mandate.

Sources: TWR, the PoR Report on NW. Check em out.

See how warped it all gets when you start conspiracy-theorizing?

[41] Posted by dogmatix on 02-01-2007 at 04:50 PM • top

Dogmatix: Nope, not a factual error.  But thanks for playing.

[42] Posted by James Manley on 02-01-2007 at 05:25 PM • top

Dogmatix:
...The cause of the referral was actually the diocese of New Westminster, not the Primate.

Exactly. The referral was asked for by the Parishes, the <u> cause </u> was the Diocese. The Primate had nothing to do with it which is why it was such a surprise to the Parishes to find out that

1. The Panel wouldn’t meet with all those that had made the initial request.
2. The Panel met with the Primate as <u> part of the discovery process </u> of the initial set of meetings.

You should be aware that the Panel operates in this manner:

1. An referral is made through ++Canterbury, the ACO and the chair Carnley.

when it eventually percolates through…

2. The Panel sends out a small group (usually 2) to talk to all the parties in order to establish the reality of the situation.

3. The Panel then leaves and produces a report.

After 3. would be the appropriate time to share with the Primate any recommendations. Instead, Hutchison got himself involved in the process way too early. More than that, it is clear that the ACO were in regular contact with the Diocese prior to the visit, but not with the Parishes.

Dogmatix:
The panel met both the parties in New Westminster - the representatives of the congregations, and those of the diocese. 


Um, no. That would be a, to coin a phrase, “factual inaccuracy”. Indeed Short has made it quite clear that they <u> didn’t </u> meet with “representatives of the congregations”, hence the disquiet.

Dogmatix:
It advised Hutchison of its recommendations, according to its mandate.

It may be that down the line such advice was given. But to suggest that after 2 days of meetings they were immediately ready the next day to give final recommendations to the Primate, and had indeed scheduled to do so (since Primates are very busy people they would need to arrange such a meeting in advance - I find it hard to schedule a lunch with my wife without at least a week’s notice) is, I suggest, not entirely believable.

[43] Posted by David Ould on 02-01-2007 at 05:49 PM • top

The revisionists excel at politics and at elections.  The longer the PoR delays, the longer the implementation of the WR, the longer everything takes, the more time to cultivate candidates to replace retiring primates and the more time to strengthen their position by the continued exit of their worthy opponents and the wearing down of the ones who remain.  I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets extended past Lambeth Conference.
The greatest sadness in this whole sorry mess is the loss of trust.

[44] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 02-01-2007 at 09:23 PM • top

David,
You really need to get your facts straight. All six congregations were represented by their leaders at the meeting with the Panel in Vancouver. So why keep insisting that they were not?

Hutchison was in Toronto at the time, so your second assertion also looks, shall we say, a little curious? (The Snarkster even thinks that he, not the Bishop of NW, was the cause of the dispute!)

[45] Posted by dogmatix on 02-02-2007 at 03:05 AM • top

Dogmatix:
I admit I was wrong, something that you apparently don’t know how to do. I was in a hurry and confused +Ingham with ++Hutchinson. My bad.

The article asserts that the POR did not meet with the complainants PRIOR to the release of their findings even though they were in regular contact with the diocese and ++Hutchinson. When they did meet to present their findings, it was with SOME, NOT ALL of the complainants.

What I said was in error and I admit it. You still have not shown us any of your huge list of factual inaccuracies in the original article. So how about it? PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

the snarkster

[46] Posted by the snarkster on 02-02-2007 at 08:49 AM • top

Dear Snarkster, you compound the errors in your latest bolt from beyond. There is no basis for your assertion that the Panel were in regular contact with the diocese and the Primate before the meeting with the complainants.

The Panel met with both sides in the dispute for the first time in Vancouver in July 2006, and their Report (also containing their recommendations) was issued in September 2006 (according to its cover page). The Panel met leaders of all six congregations named in section 1, and then met with the diocese to hear its side of the story.

No plot, no conspiracy. No prior meetings with either side, in London or anywhere else.

[47] Posted by dogmatix on 02-02-2007 at 11:52 AM • top

Dogmatix,

David Ould reported:

In between the initial application by St. John’ s and others and the visit of 2 Panel members the ACO was in regular contact with the Diocese but not the other party and, when they finally arrived, they refused to meet with all the appealing parishes, representatives of the then “Anglican Communion Network in New Westminster” (ACNiNW), nor leaders of the congregations.

This is based on his direct interviews with David Short, a participant in this process.  Do you have evidence that contradicts Short (and therefore Ould)?  After all you say:

The Panel met with both sides in the dispute for the first time in Vancouver in July 2006, and their Report (also containing their recommendations) was issued in September 2006 (according to its cover page). The Panel met leaders of all six congregations named in section 1, and then met with the diocese to hear its side of the story.

No plot, no conspiracy. No prior meetings with either side, in London or anywhere else.

From right where I’m sitting it appears the Ould has produced evidence that can be verified or unverified, you, on the other hand are producing words with nothing to back them up.  Your efforts to impeach Short’s testimony and Ould’s reporting of it falls…ummm…short.

Opinions and wishes are not facts.  If you have evidence for your latest statement, let’s hear it.  We’ll be happy to change our minds based on the evidence presented, people do it on this blog all the time, but we need to see evidence (you know quotes from participants, statements made at time the events were taking place, eyewitnesses that can be named publicly, etc.).

[48] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 02-02-2007 at 12:45 PM • top

Rom, There is no evidence for any involvement with the diocese beforehand other than the unfounded assertion which you now repeat. If you think you have evidence, let’s see it. Otherwise it is an unfounded and offensive assertion.

The Panel met with representatives of all six congregations named in the Report, section 1, as the Applicants. The congregations chose whom to send to the meeting.

The diocese refused to acknowledge two of these congregations, but they were included by the Panel (section 2).

The Network is not an Anglican Communion parish or congregation and can not be a party to an Application made under the terms of the Panel’s mandate.

The Panel met only those who were sent by the congregations - the Applicants - and by the Respondents, the diocese of NW.

You can check all this information in the public domain, or by asking those who were there. I have done so.

[49] Posted by dogmatix on 02-02-2007 at 01:12 PM • top

Dogmatix:

Many serious factual inaccuracies here….

So, that’s the extent of the “many” factual inaccuracies you claim?
I don’t know about you but my definition of “many” is more than one. And even that one is disputed. Nice try…...

the snarkster

[50] Posted by the snarkster on 02-02-2007 at 01:29 PM • top

I have only cited one, snarkster, and you were confused even by that. It gives no confidence about anything else you might have to say.

Do you have any information, or are you here just to trade insults?

[51] Posted by dogmatix on 02-02-2007 at 01:49 PM • top

Dogmatix,

You’re saying Short is prevaricating the truth and Ould is complicit in that prevarication?

I have only repeated what Ould reported.  You’re the one who came claiming there are many factual errors and inaccurate assumptions being made.  I’m just looking for evidence that might back up the PoR’s (and yours, I might add) claims.

Why is it that several of us who have asked you questions about your claims don’t get answers, but rather more requests to produce our own evidence?  Just because you say it’s so (or the PoR or Short or Ould, for that matter) doesn’t make it so.  We want to see some explanation.

Right now the statements made by Short and quoted by Ould seem to match the way the PoR is doing business especially as concerns New Westminster.

Quoting the report made by the PoR does not create new facts on the ground in support of your point as it is the report and the methodology behind the report which are being impeached.  Explain to us why you think the PoR is unimpeachable in their work so far and we should support their efforts.

[52] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 02-02-2007 at 02:47 PM • top

Ould wrote the article, not Short, and Ould needs to check his facts and the assumptions he has made in writing a somewhat biased and inaccurate article. Perhaps Short could help him out a little?

And actually, Rom, it would help if you read the Report and compared what it says against the assertions being made. All you are doing is repeating Ould’s article. The Report (published by the Panel for all the world to read) contains detailed information, some of which I have quoted, but nobody seems to have checked.

I can only conclude that you don’t want the facts to get in the way of a good storyline.

[53] Posted by dogmatix on 02-02-2007 at 04:01 PM • top

Dogmatix,

I’m sorry I’m bothering you again.  I’m trying to find out where you disagree with Ould’s article.  What I get is quotes of the PoR report and told to go read it.  I have read it.

I’m asking because Ould may have written the article, but he was quoting Short who spoke to him, per this:

One referer to the Panel, Rev. David Short of St John’s, (Shaughnessy) in the Diocese of New Westminster, is strikingly clear in his assessment of the Panel’s process. Speaking to us he said, “The Panel of Reference has failed the parishes in New Westminster.”

That was quite a bold statement so I asked him to explain what lay behind it.

From the beginning, Short told us…

Short, being a participant in this process, is a source for Ould, given that it is the work of the PoR in view here, especially the New Westminster report.

What sources do you have besides the report to indicate what happened that are counter-factual to Ould’s reporting of Short’s comments.  This is what we’re getting at in this string because it was your initial assertion on this list.

Everyone has the same report to read.  Ould is using his sources to explain how the report came to be what it is.  So we’re looking for your explanation of the report and why Ould’s statements are filled with errors.

You said you asked those who were there, but you don’t tell us who you spoke with or what they said to you.  Unfortunately, I’m beginning to believe you have nothing but the report to go on and no additional background material to assert the report’s statements or Ould’s errors.

[54] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 02-02-2007 at 08:42 PM • top

Rom, you obviously believe what you like, especially when you see it in print. However I am 100% certain of what I am saying having checked it with both the written record and with participants in the process.

[55] Posted by dogmatix on 02-03-2007 at 03:29 AM • top

Dogmatix: There are people out here who are just as certain of the truth as you are, the author included. Over the past 4 days, you have been asked umpteen times to illuminate us about the numerous factual inaccuracies you claim. What have you given us so far? One supposed inaccuracy which is vigorously disputed by all here but yourself. If all you can give us is a “my source can whip your source” argument, then it is obvious that you are just trolling. The article is less than 20 paragraphs. How hard could it be to grace us with your list of all the factual errors? Once again, PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

If you have no confidence in any thing I say, that’s fine. You may rest assured it is mutual. I was in a hurry and mixed up +Ingham and ++Hutchinson. According to the article and other sources, both +Ingham and ++Hutchinson were in communication with the POR prior to their release of their findings while the complainants were not allowed the same access so my error was not that extreme. But I’ll grant you, it was an error and I admit it, something that you are apparently incapable of doing.

At any rate, you won’t have to be concerned with me any more. Stick a fork in me, I’m done (with you).

the snarkster

[56] Posted by the snarkster on 02-03-2007 at 10:17 AM • top

Dogmatix,

This has nothing to do with my beliefs concerning written words.  This is about giving you the opportunity to back up your claims of numerous factual errors and inaccurate assumptions.

You write:

However I am 100% certain of what I am saying having checked it with both the written record and with participants in the process.

Good.  That is confidence building.  How about sharing with us what these participants said, along with their names and role in the process (that is: do what Ould did in his report)?  That’s called using sources to assert the conclusions you claim to be accurate.

I won’t waste your time any more after this.  If you can’t produce this simple information which you claim to have received just say so and we’ll go our merry ways.

[57] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 02-03-2007 at 07:01 PM • top

The people concerned wish to retain their confidentiality, as is often unsurprisingly the case where anything concerns the web.

You might wish to put these points to the author of the article, since you only have his interpretation of what was said and happened. He is not in Canada (?) and might like to check with those who are.

[58] Posted by dogmatix on 02-04-2007 at 06:05 AM • top

“The people concerned wish to retain their confidentiality, as is often unsurprisingly the case where anything concerns the web.”

Ah, yes.  The same statement was made awhile back about the “proof” of polygamous African bishops.  Dogmatix has nothing and he’s been caught.  He just doesn’t have the integrity to admit that he (1) lied or (2) reported unsubstantiated rumor as fact or (3) had no idea what he was talking about.  Out of courtesy, I’ll accept (2).

[59] Posted by William Witt on 02-04-2007 at 06:40 AM • top

A visit from Mr Witt! I am honored. The assumption or implication of lying springs so readily to hand, doesn’t it, William? I wonder what kind of mind you inhabit? Such a fine Christian! So certain of his facts!

[60] Posted by dogmatix on 02-04-2007 at 08:52 AM • top

RE: “I wonder what kind of mind you inhabit?”

I do too, dogmatix.  Dr. Witt is so brilliant and faithful in combination that it is a wonderful mystery as to the kind of mind he inhabits.

However, rest assured that I don’t wonder the same thing about you.  ; > )

[61] Posted by Sarah on 02-04-2007 at 09:25 AM • top

What a paranoid underworld I have stumbled into!

Again, I invite you one and all, examine the article - which casts unfounded and unsubstantiated assertions - a little less uncritically, and you will begin to see the chinks appear.

[62] Posted by dogmatix on 02-04-2007 at 11:04 AM • top

And by the way, I am still waiting for explanations from Rom and David Ould for the very serious inaccuracies I have pointed out. Personal abuse does not fill the gaps.

[63] Posted by dogmatix on 02-04-2007 at 11:11 AM • top

“A visit from Mr Witt! I am honored. The assumption or implication of lying springs so readily to hand, doesn’t it, William? I wonder what kind of mind you inhabit? Such a fine Christian! So certain of his facts!”

This one uncalled for, cynical, biased, and singularly false comment by Dogmatix shatters any slight integrity that Dogmatix might have brought into this blog with him/her.  About the only input of the slightest import made by this individual is that he or she knows how to write a decently structured sentence.

[64] Posted by Bill C on 02-04-2007 at 11:38 AM • top

I think dog has played us long enough.  I won’t be playing anymore.

[65] Posted by James Manley on 02-04-2007 at 12:17 PM • top

Still no answers. Just verbiage.

[66] Posted by dogmatix on 02-04-2007 at 12:18 PM • top

Just more verbiage from the last commenter.

[67] Posted by Bill C on 02-04-2007 at 01:01 PM • top

Shows what happens when you feed a troll.  Bomb throwers can cause great confusion and aggitation with a little firecracker.

[68] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 02-04-2007 at 03:22 PM • top

Still no answers. Just verbiage.

Some of us are wondering who you’re talking to because this thought has already occurred to us in reading your posts.

I, for one, would dearly love to read your list of serious inaccuracies and many factual errors, but for some reason I have been unable to find it in the approximately 18 posts you have made to this list.

It would be nice to read them so we could all evaluate the position you’re taking concerning the PoR.  But we don’t know your position other than you have stated Ould’s article has errors in it and that you can quote the PoR report concerning New Westminster.

What makes this especially amazing is that early on in this conversation, you said:

I started work on an essay in reply, which then turned into a dissertation, and was at risk of becoming a tome. So much is wrong, you see.

Surely you see our point, that a person who has written such a dissertation that it threatens to become a tome, must be qualified to provide an executive summary of its points for us simpletons who grew up watching TV and reading comic books.  That’s all we’re asking for here.  Sorry for bothering you.

[69] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 02-04-2007 at 11:28 PM • top

Why list them all when you can’t even deal with a limited number of questions without, as a group, resorting to accusations of lying or trolling?

[70] Posted by dogmatix on 02-05-2007 at 04:09 AM • top

Dogmatix,

If you were in my ESL classes, I would understand your failure to grasp this conversation, as it is, you have quite capable skills of comprehension in the English language, therefore you would receive a failing grade for failing to supply the necessary background work for your thesis statement.

You have not adequately rebutted or even engaged with Ould’s thesis (supported by his interview with Short) that the PoR has been both dilatory and biased in its work habits.  This was your initial assertion concerning factual errors.

Even given your presumption that the panel is not to usurp authority granted to the Instruments of Communion and impose judgment on parties in various disputes, it is supposed to protect the integrity and legitimate needs of groups in conflict with their diocesan bishop by supervising and ensuring adequate pastoral provisions are in place to preserve the unity of the communion per the primates request.  The thrust of Ould’s article is that it has not done so in a quick, fair and impartial manner.

For whatever reason, while claiming the existence of errors which should be obvious to all, you have not provided the factual rebuttal for this thesis after now 19 posts.  I must move on.  Gracias, Adios.

[71] Posted by Rom 1:16 on 02-05-2007 at 11:28 AM • top

Rom, since you appear incapable of doing some basic analytical work on the factual questions, I assume you have read the Panel’s recommendations?

In which case you could perhaps explain why David Short is refusing the offer of alternative episcopal oversight from Abp Terry Buckle, from whom he previously sought oversight? (Is Buckle suddenly less orthodox these days?) That would enable him safely to employ more clergy, according to the recommendations, and provide him with episcopal support for the parishes concerned.

Or does he just want to prove some kind of point by maintaining the status quo?

[72] Posted by dogmatix on 02-05-2007 at 01:46 PM • top

Dogmatix,  we are hopless.  We just are too dense to understand your higher logic.  If I were you I would just give up and take my ball and go home.  Probably it is because of our dull minds and poor training.  We just can’t wrap our little minds around your superior ideas.  Cheers.

[73] Posted by PROPHET MICAIAH on 02-05-2007 at 09:31 PM • top

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