AnglicanTV interview ++Orombi and ++Venables

Fantastic interview! Bishops Orombi and Venerables are a “refreshing breath of air”.  What godly men, they are. The reference make by Bishop Venerables to the Francis Schaffer’s book about the Presbyterian situation and how it was mishandled, and his desire to not make the same mistake but to proceed in love impressed me greatly.  Even with their admision that we are two faiths in the same Church, they wanted to proceed with caution.  Not “kicking the can down the street” but approaching the difference with love and addressing the options of staying together or radical division with prayer and honest discussion.

1-I love these men of God.
2-The can has been kicked.

Intercessor

Our catholicity has been torn to shreds.

Ah, Intercessor.
I think what Orombi and Venables are saying is “there is no can”, no moment when the communion will come to grips with the situation.
Rather, they describe a communion that has already split apart, and all its struggles to resolve things (episcopal vistors, pastoral forums, etc etc) will make the split more apparent.
They look to new relationships like Gafcon, to grow within the ruin of the old communion.

I had the impression from other readings on the meeting that ACNA was kicked down the street. That the June meeting to approve C&C;was too soon. Since both ++Venables and ++Orombi are active is Gafcon. This confuses me some. Dis I miss read it?

Here at Stand Firm we’d love to pass off other people’s interviews as our own exclusives, but that would not be Virtuous.

Or Congerous

If you listen to the interview David, George and Kevin and another journalist all seem to be doing a joint interview. Is it really necessary to have this sniping amongst each other the whole time? I for one appreciate the diversity in coverage and the different viewpoints each of these journalists offer.

It’s not sniping. It’s simply pointing out that claiming an exclusive when it’s no such thing is dishonest and taking liberties with others.

I love diversity and other viewpoints. I have little time for claiming for oneself an exclusive as though you’d done all the work yourself when, actually, you’re part of a pool.

GC doesn’t see the need to claim an “exclusive”. Probably because he had no such thing and didn’t need to glamourise his coverage.

#5   Bob+, the last I heard is that the ratification of our Constitution and Canons are going to go ahead as scheduled.  Additional canons will, of course, be added as necessary, I’m certain.  We may see some interesting developments between now and July, and we’re getting ready for that, I think.  The Anglican Church in North America is a fact, and our recognition as a province may not happen this year, but it will happen.

I had the impression from other readings on the meeting that ACNA was kicked down the street.

I think I might disagree.  And let me offer a possible defense of Archbishop Rowan and the much-maligned indaba while I’m at it.

Keep in mind that the goal in the communion is a combination of full recognition of ACNA and repentence/discipline of TEC.

One thing +Orombi pointed out was that he can’t speak about our situation with the same level of detail or emotional involvement as we can.  He said he wants our voices to be heard.

Now,  the gay rights issues in the church will seem strange and painful to the typical bishop or archbishop who doesn’t know any American or Canadian leaders very well.  But so must the notion of Anglicans in NA joining African churches also seem strange.  They are probably predisposed to think that everyone is “basically orthodox” until proven otherwise.  After all, we all believe what’s in the prayer book, right?  They don’t go to the US seminaries or hear the sermons preached.  Like +Orombi (but even more so) they just don’t know what it’s like on the ground.

Such bishops love the orthodox faith and the Anglican communion and would be very hesitant to make any rash decisions that would split things apart.  The value that +Orombi and +Venables saw in this meeting is clarity—by virtue of talking together and studying in a very small group, the primates starting becoming aware that there are very different theological systems at work.  The “politically moderate” orthodox bishops in the rest of the world need to see how revisionists really deal with scripture before making up their minds about TEC and ACNA.

Is it possible that +Rowan, who is on record pointing out how long the Arian crisis too to resolve, was thinking this when he did the indaba thing at Lambeth?  That a series of conversations would bring clarity to our differences and greater unity to whatever emerges from an eventual covenant process because it will be built on a deeper mutual trust among the primates who freely choose to walk together rather than a top-down decision imposed from above?  That a covenant would emerge and those who don’t want to embrace orthodoxy will separate themselves?

I do not follow all this as knowledgeably as some of you folks, but I wish the Primates had been a little more openly supportive of ACNA. I agree with Cennydd, though, that the ACNA is a fact that will not go away. As it grows (and it surely will), perhaps certain issues and uncertainties will take care of themselves.

Regarding Anglican T.V. interviews, I have Anglican T.V. bookmarked among my favorites, and the last time I clicked the site, I got a message ‘not found.” I hope their website is still active. I also really miss their humorous semi-seekly summaries, although I understand that events have perhaps made (the summaries) a bit ‘off message’ or redundant.

Here is the link to AnglicanTV - http://www.anglicantv.org/ - I think it did get moved around or change its URL.

I commented this way on a T19 thread, but I believe that rather than throwing ACNA “under the bus,” it has been thrown “off the bus” by the orthodox primates…at least for the time being.  The AC bus is a mess and headed for the cliff.  Who knows?  Perhaps orthodox primates are planning to jump off, too…and wanted to save the baby (ACNA) first.  Venables is very clear (towards the end of the interview) that they have to see what is going to happen with the AC before they push ACNA towards membership.  Perhaps the AC is not something that ACNA will want to be part of…..  It’s certainly something to consider, and I do think that GC 2009 and the Covenant Process will add to the clarity all the way around.

The ACNA group are the lifeboats that are still hanging in, close to the “TECtanic,” open for those who see the water coming up on the deck.  But they will have to strike for shore (or out to sea) soon….so as not to be pulled down by the force of the water as it swallows the ship.  God bless the Communion Partners bishops and rectors for going down with the ship, but I don’t think they will want to take their flock down with them.  At least I hope not…

By agreeing to mediation, the can was indeed kicked down the street, and by so agreeing, our primates were once again outflanked and endrun. One definition of insanity is to keep throwing the same failed solution at the same problem, hoping that this time, the result will be different. I urge everyone to read Bill O’Reilly’s “Culture Warrior”. It describes exactly what has happened to our communion without ever mentioning the church at all. And that is not strange, because we are not trying to deal with Christian people of good will; we are not dealing with Christians—even ++Venables and ++Orombi said as much.
desertpadre

I believe that the ‘unity’ that is coming out of Alexandria reflects more of an acceptance by the primates and the churches that they represent that two diverging Anglican paths have been and will continue to grow.

Revisionists are not going to change their direction and traditional Anglicans are going to hold fast to their beliefs. IMHO the Anglican Communion is no more, rather a federation that will ultimately split into two. I think that the ‘peace’ that everyone -liberal and conservative- saw between the primates was perhaps a true acceptance of this fact. That in itself would be a freeing experience where primates could express their love, caring and prayers for one another.

At the same time, primates such as ++s Orombi and Venables made it clear that they remain steadfastly committed to evangelizing the world with the gospel message of sin, repentance and acceptance of Jesus and his actions on the cross. Liberal archbishops are clearly set on their path of social mission and cultural change.
In North America, this battle is starkly clear. A new province is coalescing and will continue to grow and will cross the million mark within a few years.
Whether the liberal side of the church ever accepts ACNA as a province is a moot point. Ultimately, it will emerge as a province in its own right in the Gafcon community of provinces, which I see as the focal point for the traditional expression of the church.

In the meantime, TEC faces the unpleasant reality that much of the orthodox component has left, is still leaving, and will continue to leave. +Schori is fighting this tooth and nail, unfortunately for all concerned through litigation and denial. The ‘peace’ and ‘acceptance that came out of Alexandria was (IHM) not felt by her. She arrived late and left early and I suspect that the inevitability of the coming split was not to her liking. I believe that the ‘unity’ that is coming out of alexandria reflects more of an acceptance by the primates and the churches that they represent that two diverging Anglican paths have been and will continue to grow.

Revisionists are not going to change their direction and traditional Anglicans are going to hold fast to their beliefs. IMHO the Anglican Communion is no more, rather a federation that will ultimately split into two. I think that the ‘peace’ that everyone -liberal and conservative- saw between the primates was perhaps a true acceptance of this fact. That in itself would be a freeing experience where primates could express their love, caring and prayers for one another.

At the same time, primates such as ++s Orombi and Venables made it clear that they remain steadfastly committed to evangelizing the world with the gospel message of sin, repentance and acceptance of Jesus and his actions on the cross. Liberal archbishops are clearly set on their path of social mission and cultural change.
In North America, this battle is starkly clear. A new province is coalescing and will continue to grow and will cross the million mark within a few years.
Whether the liberal side of the church ever accepts ACNA as a province is a moot point. Ultimately, it will emerge as a province in its own right in the Gafcon community of provinces, which I see as the focal point for the traditional expression of the church.

In the meantime, TEC faces the unpleasant reality that much of the orthodox component has left, is still leaving, and will continue to leave. +Schori is fighting this tooth and nail, unfortunately for all concerned through litigation and denial. The ‘peace’ and ‘acceptance that came out of Alexandria was (IHM) not felt by her. She arrived late and left early and I suspect that the inevitability of the coming split was not to her liking.

Schori can fight tooth and nail until the cows come home, if that’s what she wants, but that’s not going to change things one bit.  She claims that TEC is “inclusive,” but evidently this doesn’t include conservatives; those of the “loyal opposition” still in TEC are especially vulnerable.

Seems like TEC’s definition of “inclusive” is “do it OUR way”..  More word-mongering by the Presiding Obfuscator and her staff…

It seems somewhat odd to me that Archbishop Venables is surprised that the word “repentance” means something very different to him than the revisionists. The revisionists have co-opted many conservative words and concepts and given them their own meaning. For example, “reconciliation” in Central California means litigation and “inclusiveness” means total access to the entire church for the baptized. this is what I would call the tower of Babel part II.

Of course Venables is taking a wait and see attitude, don’t forget he is taking money from the parishes that left TEC, and when ACNA has been recognised, up and running, the money to support the very small Province will be shifted. Its all about purple shirts, power and money. Doesn’t matter what side of the fence you are on, it holds true for both.

samsa - show me the money. I think you are just speculating without any actual facts.

Look at the Diocesan budgets, for three years that I know of, San Joaquin sent no money to TEC (that’s fine) however, at least for 2008 and I believe for 2009 money was budgeted to be sent to the Southern Cone. Do you honestly believe that a small impoverished Province could send their Primate galavanting around the World? Costs money, where do you think its coming from?

Where is TEC getting the money to file lawsuits from the national and local level?  Planned Parenthood bake sales? Speaking of jet-setting around the globe how many carbon footprints has the TEC Presiding Bishop made? I guess she has suspended her concern about the enviroment until all the orthodox are bankrupt.

On the issue of “repentance”, the word was not used in the Windsor report.  The word was “regret”  +Venables has been very clear.  What is of consequence is common theology for Communion to exist.  Although +Orombi seems comfortable with letting the theologians have a go at discovering that, +Venables seems already certain that his view is “Christian” and “theirs”, (presumably TEC’s) is something else.  Hence no communion.  Elizabeth’s solution to the same problem was to choose practice over belief.  It may be that she just kicked the can down the block 4 centuries but her point is well-taken.  Focusing entirely on what the church “believes” together vs prays together and works together seems to miss much of the meaning of being church.  If right doctrine is the measure of relationship then division and redivision is inevitable.  We will never agree on everything.  We even have trouble agreeing on what is and isn’t essential .  So I think the Dr. Phil question really comes into play:  “Do you want to be right or do you want to be in a relationship?”  I think that +Venables has made his thinking clear, now the rest of the communion needs to decide.

21   Hellcat, a little over a month ago, Dr Schori asked some rich lawyers in The Episcopal Church to donate large sums of money to the pot.  Can it be that dipping into endowments could result in legal trouble, such as lawsuits on the part of the legatees or estates who endowed the Church if they didn’t beg permission first?  Or can it be that the real estate market has gotten so bad that they can’t sell enough property to foot the legal bills without financial help from those lawyers?

Elizabeth’s solution to the same problem was to choose practice over belief.

This is so much nonsense.  John Jewel and Richard Hooker would not have written volumes and volumes if Anglicanism was merely about practice and not belief.  Every Roman Catholic Recusant, and every Puritan dissenter knew that belief was at heart the dividing issue.  Anyone who is capable of reading the 39 Articles should be capable of understanding that Anglicanism did not choose “practice” over belief.

Cennydd, You raise some very good points. Nothing is more irksome than liberals making innuendos about orthodox bishops. It should concern them about why TEC is not being forthcoming about how the lawsuits are being funded. Also, if they want to snipe about Archbishop Venables’s globetrotting, then let’s talk about KJS’s impact on the enviroment.

Do you want to be right or do you want to be in a relationship?

I would prefer to be in a right relationship.

Hoo, boy, are you ever right, Hellcat!

#22 EmilyH,
“What is of consequence is common theology for Communion to exist.” Venables (and Orambi) simply state that there are non Christians in the AC and for them the AC is a club.
There is a Hegelian dialectic at work on the part of TEC and the ABC. They both think a better theology will emerge from the Listening process but this “Listening process” is one way. If Eve had not been in a listening process she would not have exchanged a lie for the truth.

#28 DD:

If Eve had not been in a listening
process she would not have exchanged a lie for the truth.

Superbly said….
Intercessor

I remember, as a 9-year-old boy, hearing Neville Chamberlain’s voice on the radio, as the world listened breathlessly, proclaim that “We have peace in our time.” I also remember that within a matter of days, the German blietzkerieg was smashing into Poland, which both England and France were bound by treaty to defend. I was reminded of that radio message on Friday night when I watched ++Venables and ++Orombi delightedly talking about the theological talks, and the mediator, and all the stuff that TEO agreed to. Then I read the things which are going to be considered at the GC in Anaheim, and it just seemed like deja vu all over again. TEO obviously has no intention of honoring anything about the things Schori agreed to in Alexandria. When are we going to learn???????????????????????????
desertpadre

Because I questioned and answered a poster, I have been labeled a liberal and referred to to as “they”? That’s interesting. Everyone needs to question these days, you are quite right, it is not environmentally friendly on anyone’s part. Haven’t these folks heard of teleconferencing?
I am just saying that no one heard of the Primate of the Southern Cone before all this and now he is everywhere, and not necessarily as vocally supportive of the ACNA as one would think he would be since he is a “temporary’ port in the storm,so to speak.  After the debacle in San Joaquin, I will question everything, liberal,conservative, orthodox or not.The only thing I won’t question is Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Samsa, I agree with most of what you said-teleconferencing, questioning the whole political spectrum. How does it measure up to God’s Word?  Exactly!  If I promise not to dive bomb you, will you tell me why you think San Joaquin is a debacle? Truly, I want your imput.

DesertPadre, You have used a great example. It would be wise to pull out the history books. We have not learned our lesson from WWII. Appeasement never works.

Desertpadre, if you can think of a better way for us to do things, let’s hear it!  Otherwise….....

And by the way:  I’m not about to give up on the ACNA…...not by a LONG shot!

Mr. Witt, I never addressed Hooker, recousant Catholics.  I noted Elizabeth’s solution…  But of course you knew that.  The products of the reformation period were a printing press, wider literacy than ever before a bible in the vernacular, and, from my point
of view, a pendulum that swung drastically from the story in art on the walls and the poetry of music to the “certainty” of the written word… The commonality of
religipus experience, our willingness to reflect on it (doing theology if you will) has become focused on a tertiary concern, formation of dogma.  And dogma and “right” belief have become the measure of Christianity. 

But the truth is, if you make your living with words, you know that they don’t have nearly the clarity or certainty that would suggest.  In fact, they don’t seem all that effective at carrying the grace, beauty and awe of “religion” at all.  Prayer, sacrament can carry and “express” what our limping broken words can’t.  +Venables has focused on a religion of
the head and its tenets. He is unwilling to share communion with those who do not share his understanding of scripture, or more precisely those he thinks don’t share it.  If it
can be said that TEC tore the fabric of the communion, +Venables will shred it until its color and texture are gone.

31. samsa, I didn’t label you a liberal. I’m just not that cynical about ++Venables. He and I aren’t in total agreement on everything, but I believe his “yes” is “yes” and his “no” is “no”. He is a pretty concrete guy. And that is a real good thing. I believe he can be trusted.

Nobody heard of any of the Primates until our bishops appealed to them. We put the spotlight on them. I agree with what he said - the Communion has to sort itself out before anyone worries about whether or not the Communion recognizes ACNA. He and ++Orombi both said, “stay together and approach the ABC directly.” Personally, I do want the Primates to meet together face to face - much more real communication happens that way than mediated through a computer. And the thought of KJS having to look up at Henry Orombi to speak to him warms my heart.

#36 EmilyH,
1.  “(doing theology if you will) has become focused on a tertiary concern, formation of dogma.  And dogma and “right” belief have become the measure of Christianity.”
Dogma (doctrine)is not a tertiary concern and has always been important to Christianity.
2. “But the truth is, if you make your living with words, you know that they don’t have nearly the clarity or certainty that would suggest.”
This statement is especially true in TEC where words are redefined to suit TEC’s own purposes.
3.  “+Venables has focused on a religion of
the head and its tenets.”
Your statement here is correct and Reason (informed by God) is an important part of Anglicanism. “Feelings” are not a source of authority within our tradition.
4.  “He is unwilling to share communion with those who do not share his understanding of scripture, or more precisely those he thinks don’t share it.”
Emily, he is unwilling to share communion with those he believes are not Christians.

2. “But the truth is, if you make your living with words, you know that they don’t have nearly the clarity or certainty that would suggest.”

that is almost the embodiment of the revisionist mindset. Out where I live, words have meaning and can actually communicate difficult concepts as well as simple ones. Can words embody all that our faith is? No. That’s why we still value meditation, prayer, art and music.

#21- good question (“where’s the $ coming from for litigation). Recall several retired bishops asked the same thing with no response to date. A review of the proposed budget approved by TEC’s Exec.Council at their recent meeting gives a glimpse although they’re still working ‘behind the curtain’: for the current Triennium $300,000.00 was budgeted for “Title IV and Legal Assitance to Dioceses”. The actual estimate now for that category is $4,704,000.00+. For the next Triennium the budgeted amount is $1,994,000.00. Also of interest is the Budgetary Summary prepared by TEC which shows for ‘08 the budgeted amount for that category was $450,000.00 but the forecast expenditure is $1,970,000.00. The same document shows the overage of $1,520,000.00 for ‘08 was covered by an “additional draw from short-term reserve”, with no explanation of just what those short term reserves are. If people (or at least some of them)knew that their $ is being spent in this fashion, they might not be so supportive.

# 36 EmilyH,
“But the truth is, if you make your living with words, you know that they don’t have nearly the clarity or certainty that would suggest.”
I believe that you are an attorney. The legal system uses what is called the adversarial system for discovering truth. That is where at least two sides are pitted against one another and the “truth” emerges. It is then tested in court. Thus language can be used to clarify or obfuscate because one is putting out his/her version of the truth.  Actually, I think this is the closest model to TEC of any method used to discern truth.
Science uses the Scientific Method to discover the truth but is limited to the observable and quantifiable material universe this truth must be replicated by others.
Faith uses revealed truth which is not as easy to articulate but is reason informed by God.
When one is engaged in the Adversarial system, truth gets down to discerning what the meaning of “is” is.  The church catholic comes from the position of being of one spirit so the attempt is to discern God’s truth through revelation. This truth is immutable and tested in our hearts and the history of the church.

Well said, Dcn Dale. Also, William Witt, you have just defined the problem—TEO advocates relationship over love and truth. They are willing to sacrifice what is right, defined by Holy Scripture and our Lord, for feel-good-about-each-other relationship.
Lastly, Cennydd, I certainly did not criticize ACNA. I think it is our last, best, hope here in San Joaquin to remain Anglicans in communion with other Anglicans. I did not here ++Venables or ++Orombi giving it all that much support, and that is one of the things I’m unhappy about. It seems to me that they have agree to talk some more, at the expense of our being able to move ahead in the AC with ACNA.
desertpadre

Oops. That should be “I did not hear ++Venables ...”
desertpadre