Dispatches from the HoB/D: Loons, Liars and Latin Kings [Updated w/More Hobdy Goodness]

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is a duck.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is a duck.

Not if you’re Tom Woodward. He will, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, argue that it is not a duck but an aardvark and then castigate us severely for being so insensitive to the aardvark population.

the snarkster™

The Latin Kings is a well known gang in prison.  I’ve served on Kairos weekends in two TDC units and run into Latin Kings members at both units. 

Latin Kings is not a “street gang” and Hamas is a government that seeks peace and justice with its neighbors. (/sarcasm)

The fact that street gangs do works of mercy (such as teaching culture or helping out the neighborhood) in no way mitigates the damage they do to young men (and women) and the violence they cause.  Mafia Dons are well known for the generosity to the arts - does that make their actions any less evil?

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

Yeah, and the IRA was a fraternal organization committed to self help and teaching Irish culture…

Oh Greg ... you would take Tom up on his “challenge” ...

How dare you, Greg Griffith!!! 

Your post with all those quotes from the NY Times, and other so-called “facts” [HAH]  is nothing more than a smear job.

Tom Woodward is papally imprimatured. 

He is also certified orthodox by a number of people qualified to do so.

Yeah, Paul….and so was the Welsh National Army!

I thought they were a dance club.  Maybe thats who Tom is thinking of.

Look guys, what’s all this doubting the Latin Kings are a charity organization.

Some day some people might start doubting TEC is a church!

What an utterly amazing story. Not just that a priest should “bless in” anyone, let alone small children, as members of a street gang but that another priest should seek to defend such a practice.

You know one of the really distressing and astonishing things that one discovers about TEC is the complete pointlessness of dialoguing with the progressive apparatchiks.

This - among many, many other reasons - is why the HoB/D listserv needs to be exposed.

[6] Sarah Hey,

You omitted one of his other qualifications for making equivocal moral pronouncements, to wit: he is among the most epistemologically-challenged, yet highly educated, ordained indidividuals in the world of American Anglicanism.

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

The more revealing thread was the one started by ‘D Perschall’ about evangelism. If you want to know why the Episcopal church is shrinking, read the comments that follow. They’ve changed the ‘Good News’ into the ‘Smug News’.

The Episcopal Church: all of the ritual, none of the theology

...public officials tell us that is not true.

To whom is Tom referring?  This rings of the “sources in Hollywood” found frequently in tabloid journalism.

mousestalker,

Couldyou provide a link to the thread to which you’re referring?

And Charles Manson was just an extroverted suicide.

Seriously, I’ve come to the conclusion that the one unifying characteristic of today’s Left is the utter contempt they have for reality.  It’s what lets them protest in the streets over Khalid Sheikh Mohammed getting water poured on him, all the while wearing Che Guevara tee shirts.

You all have done a wonderful job assembling one-sided and out of date material as the means for another attack—all that and Sarah and Martial Artist get to do their cute sarcastic bits.

Greg, had you looked a little further than the first page of your Google search you would have found this from the New York Times review of the current documentary on the Latin Kings which puts into context the past violence that you and others have cited:
“Can a street gang transform itself into a community service organization? The Almighty Latin King and Queen Nation of New York City contend that they’ve done just that. The Latin Kings were organized in the 1940s in a predominantly Puerto Rican neighborhood to protect their community from violent outsiders, but the group had become an especially rough street gang by the 1960s, and in the 1980s they moved into organized crime, including drug dealing. But in the ‘90s, after several of the organization’s leaders were arrested, the remaining Latin Kings (and their women’s auxiliary, the Latin Queens) opted to go straight, restructuring themselves into a political and social activist group that operates day care centers, organizes Hispanic cultural education programs, spearheads voter registration drives, and educates children about the dangers of drugs and gang life. However, New York law enforcement authorities believe the group’s new face is merely a front for continued illegal activity, while the group’s leaders contend that these charges are based on racism rather than the facts. Black & Gold is a documentary that looks at the history of the Latin Kings organization, as well as their dramatic transformation, their current activities, and the political and philosophical motives behind their actions. Black & Gold was screened at the 2001 San Francisco Independent Film Festival. ~ Mark Deming, All Movie Guide

Other reviewers express pretty much the same assessment. I join others in condemning the past violence of members of these groups—I hope you who have posted, above, will join me in protesting the repression of these groups and the massive assault on them in Guliani’s “Crown” offensive.

I am appalled at the personal attacks above. I thought SFIF screened such stuff.

Greg, check out the personal attacks on this string—is this the spirituality of SFIF? In addition,check out the dates of the quotes you cited: 15 years ago.

Martial Artist:  about a month ago, in more than one of your posts you indicated that you had some very damaging evidence of misconduct by me during my long pastorate in Salinas, California. I have written you privately and asked here, publicly, for you to provide charges or evidence. I ask, once again, for you to put up or apologize. That kind of attack is beneath any follower of Jesus Christ.

I also am appalled, Greg.

Really—you are mean-spirited.

And divisive.

And you have personally attacked Tom Woodward with a terrible smear job.

On another note, I continue to have my self-esteem raised by the personal commendations of Tom Woodward, provided just above “. . . and Sarah [random and extraneous other commenter’s name deleted—don’t know how he got a commendation] get to do their cute sarcastic bits.”

Latin Kings, good dancers, and not bad gangsta’s either.

Why do you want to argue with leftists about this kind of stuff.  It’s like arguing with Kim Jong Il about the efficiency of North Korea’s agricultural programs.

[17] TBWSantaFe

I am appalled at the personal attacks above. I thought SFIF screened such stuff.

What personal attacks would those be?  I have read thru this thread three times, and the closest thing I can find to a personal attack would be:

[#16] “epistemologically-challenged” which is really no more than saying your presuppositions are wrong.  (And they are, btw.)

Or perhaps:
[#10] The general reference to “progressive apparatchiks”?  But that is hardly a personal attack.  It is merely an unflattering comparision between the inhabitants of the old Soviet bureaucracy and the the inhabitants of new TEC bureaucracy.

Beyond those, I haven’t found much, and those two examples don’t come close to the threshold of ad hominem.  Am I missing something?

carl

Greg, had you looked a little further than the first page of your Google search you would have found this from the New York Times review of the current documentary on the Latin Kings which puts into context the past violence that you and others have cited…

Tom - I just have to ask: Are you merely deliberately deceitful, or are we mistaking your chronic naivete for deceitfulness? Because you are either a liar, or you are so naive that you believe Wikipedia entries and the claims of street gang leaders that they’re really just misunderstood Rotarians.

Read again the NYT article you cite: It doesn’t provide a lick of hard evidence that the Latin Kings have “gone legit” - it’s merely a review - and a one-paragraph one at that - of a movie that makes that claim. Are you seriously offering a one-paragraph movie review as evidence that the entirety of the Latin Kings has gone legit? Really?

Honestly, Tom - this is it??? A 10-year-old movie review made by people who are trying to recast the Latin Kings’ image?

First of all, it is laughable on its face that any adult would assert such a thing on as flimsy a piece of evidence. Laughable.

Second, even if the most recent incident of LK thuggery were the 1995 murder and drug trafficking charges, or the 1997 Trenton murder, you are still asking us to believe - again, based on a one-paragraph review of a documentary - that a national gang, founded by convicts and steeped in five decades of violence, made a complete about-face in the span of two years. Does this not strike you as ridiculous, Tom? What is it about you that lets you stare into the face of a mountain of facts documenting the violence of the Latin Kings over the span of several decades… AND THEN BELIEVE WHAT A ONE-PARAGRAPH REVIEW OF A MOVIE SAYS? Seriously, Tom - you should seek professional advice and treatment on whatever it is that allows you to ignore reality so completely.

Third: It so happens that the last case of LK thuggery was NOT 1997. Here’s a story from the Chicago Tribune from September of 2008:

40 charged as Latin Kings in drug-trafficking case, officials say
Federal agents target operation believed to be based in Little Village

By Jeff Coen
September 25, 2008

More than three dozen people with ties to the powerful Latin Kings street gang were charged Wednesday in a drug conspiracy case for alleged narcotics trafficking in the Little Village neighborhood on Chicago’s Southwest Side, authorities said.

FBI agents and Chicago police were a part of teams involved in a sweep early Wednesday in which a number of reputed leaders of the organization were taken into custody. Among those charged were a “supreme regional officer,” a regional enforcer and 18 “Incas” in the gang that is accused of selling drugs and weapons.

Federal officials said 40 people were charged in a case that was meant to be a major blow against the gang’s leadership. The four-year investigation used an undercover informant who wore a wire against fellow gang members even as he was responsible for security at major meetings.

Chicago Police Supt. Jody Weis said there have been 29 slayings—of which eight were juveniles—this year in the Ogden District, the area of the sweep.

29 slayings, Tom. Eight of whom were juveniles.

Here’s what astonishes me, Tom:

You call Don Perschall out because he “didn’t do his homework.”

You offer as evidence an entry from Wikipedia, which the whole world knows is open to being edited by anybody. ANYBODY, Tom. Do I have to connect the dots, or do you see the problem here?

I cite numerous examples of LK savagery, and you come back with… a one-paragraph review of a movie.

Now at this point, a reasonable person - dare I say a sane person - would have taken a step back and said, “Hmm.. you know, you’re right. It looks as if I was mistaken about my claim that the Latin Kings had gone legit.” And that would have been the end of it. I wrote in my main post that I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt - hasty writing, I said; or perhaps you were just overly defensive of Fr. Barrios.

But no. You come on here, and you call me out for not doing my homework, despite the fact that I offered more evidence in my main post than you offered in yours on the list.

Oh wait - look here - here’s another one, this from 2006:

Top-level member of gang collared
17 other Latin Kings taken into custody

By Jeff Coen, Rudolph Bush, and Tribune Staff Reporters
December 06, 2006

A Chicago man described by federal authorities as “the CEO of the Latin Kings Nation on the South Side” was taken into custody early Tuesday, capping a three-year investigation into the operations of the violent street gang.

Fernando “Ace” King was among 18 gang members whose arrests were announced Tuesday by U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald. King had the title of “Supreme Inca,” running the gang’s drug empire on the city’s South Side and the south suburbs, officials said. There are only a small circle of leaders above him, including Gustavo “Gino” Colon, the gang’s imprisoned head, officials said.

“It may seem pretty cool to be a Supreme Inca when you’re the leader on thestreet of a gang until the title ‘Supreme Inca’ becomes ‘lead defendant,‘“Fitzgerald said.

The Latin Kings operate in seven regions in Chicago, including the southwest and northwest suburbs, authorities said.

King is one of 38 members and associates charged in the case after investigators with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives used wiretaps and undercover drug purchases to crack the gang’s operations. Hewas charged with intent to distribute cocaine as part of “Operation Broken Crown,” which is billed as the most significant federal effort against the Latin Kings since the takedown of Colon in 1998.
Others in the case are charged with a wide range of drug and gun violations.

Of course, I knew good and well when I wrote the main post that you wouldn’t show up to admit your mistake, but that you would instead offer up flimsy evidence, twisted logic, appalling naivete and moral equivocation. I guess I should be surprised, but I’m not.

TSW, I am all for making sure your research is up to date and on target, so I did a Google news date search and found these, all dated today or yesterday. Apparently these folks didn’t get the memo that the Kings were no longer about drugs and violence.

[url=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29284682/”]Racine Police Search for Violent Assault Suspect
The Racine Police Department is asking for the public’s help in finding the suspect in a series of assaults and stalking incidents. Juan A. Servantez is a member of the Latin Kings gang and has an extensive criminal record.[/url]

10 gang members arrested following ICE-led operation in Charlotte

Gang Sweep Nets Arrests In Brandon, Plant City, Ruskin

Role in gang shootings brings 8 years in prison

RE: “Are you merely deliberately deceitful . . . . “

Greg Griffith!

I’m appalled at these personal attacks

This is a blatant smear. 

How could you call yourself a Christian with this latest lengthy comment of yours purporting to show that Tom Woodward’s comments are a bag of hot air buffoonery.

You should know better than to treat a certified orthodox priest—a Holy Father, if I may say so—in this scurrilous manner.

Someone fetch me my smelling salts. 

And arrange that chaise lounge a bit closer behind me please—I feel a swoon coming.

An editorial correction, it is not Sudenos it is spelled Sureños, and it is not Nortenos, it is Norteñous. 

I know this because these are the street gangs that dominate my local community.  I’ve gotten good at reading gang graffiti so that I can keep up on what’s going on in my neighborhood; which is Norteñous turf.  Fortunately for the community as a whole, the Mexican gang members seem to keep it amongst themselves.  These street gangs, Sureños and Norteñous are just the equivalent of the farm league for the prison gangs of Mexican Mafia and Nuestra Familia respectively.  And the kids get to move up to the major leagues by committing a crime worthy of a state or federal prison sentence, were they get to mix with the older adults doing hard time and get initiated as members into the really hard core organized crime families. 

I act as a Friend on the Outside for someone in jail, so I get to see a lot of these young gang members when I visit the jail.  Nothing gets me more anger than to see this kind of tripe about celebrating these kids’s gang behavior.  Unfortunately, a feminized church has nothing to offer these kids.

Oh good GRIEF. Here’s what Woodward just posted on the HoB/D:

Now that Stand Firm has initiated another smear attack on me for my previous post re: these groups, I want to point out a couple of things. First, the origins of these groups are rooted in necessary protest against prison conditions—and their memberships were largely those who had been abused. Apparently, the Chamber of Commerce was not interested.

Second, they have had periods of violence—the newspaper article cited focused largely on incidents 15 years ago. A good bit of the violence had to do with rough characters defending themselves against attacks by gangs. Some was undoubtedly in response to repression from different government groups. About the time FALN (liberation group in El Salvador) attempted to make common cause with these groups, they rejected that overture because FALN had moved into a violent phase. I think it was then that the Latin Kings and NETA began seriously to reform themselves.

Third, this history has been documented in a film, reviewed in the New York Times and other sources, called “Black and Gold.” Here is the essence of the review:

Can a street gang transform itself into a community service organization? The Almighty Latin King and Queen Nation of New York City contend that they’ve done just that. The Latin Kings were organized in the 1940s in a predominantly Puerto Rican neighborhood to protect their community from violent outsiders, but the group had become an especially rough street gang by the 1960s, and in the 1980s they moved into organized crime, including drug dealing. But in the ‘90s, after several of the organization’s leaders were arrested, the remaining Latin Kings (and their women’s auxiliary, the Latin Queens) opted to go straight, restructuring themselves into a political and social activist group that operates day care centers, organizes Hispanic cultural education programs, spearheads voter registration drives, and educates children about the dangers of drugs and gang life. However, New York law enforcement authorities believe the group’s new face is merely a front for continued illegal activity, while the group’s leaders contend that these charges are based on racism rather than the facts. Black & Gold is a documentary that looks at the history of the Latin Kings organization, as well as their dramatic transformation, their current activities, and the political and philosophical motives behind their actions. Black & Gold was screened at the 2001 San Francisco Independent Film Festival. - Mark Deming, All Movie Guide

I don’t want to get into a shouting match with my friend, Fr. Don Perschall. He trusts his sources and I trust mine—and I think we are both aware than comfortable middle class people like us have a difficult time assessing groups founded and run my marginalized people experiencing extreme oppression.
Tom Woodward

Uhhhh…. NO WE DON’T, TOM. There is nothing about being a “comfortable middle class” person that makes us constitutionally unable to recognize evil in our midst, and to be able to condemn in unequivocal terms. Through what demented strain of hippie pop-psychology do you reach that ridiculous conclusion?

Idiocy, Tom - plain and simple. Either that, or willful deceit in the service of evil.

Honestly - you need professional help. Please get some.

Tom,
All you have to do is go to this website which is the FBI site to see what the FBI says about the latin kings.
http://www.fbi.gov/page2/feb09/ngta_020609.html
Art+

Now you’ve done it, Greg ... Sarah is going to “swoon” for sure ...

[18] TBWSantaFe,

Please note that I am (only momentarily) recalling you from Coventry solely for the purpose of responding to another of your false claims. At the end of this missive, I shall return you, safely and securely, to Coventry.

You write

about a month ago, in more than one of your posts you indicated that you had some very damaging evidence of misconduct by me during my long pastorate in Salinas, California. I have written you privately and asked here, publicly, for you to provide charges or evidence.

First, I have never made any allegations against you, publicly or privately, orally or in writing, concerning any misconduct of yours, in Salinas or elsewhere, because, other than your inability to engage in systematic ratiocination taking into consideration the totality of the factual evidence (which is after all only intellectual misconduct), I have never had any personal knowledge or awareness that you might have engaged in any misconduct, public or private, professional or amateur.

Second, if you have ever written me to make such an accusation against me or to ask for evidence in support, the letter/email was never delivered to me. I do recall you asking me to relay a message to another poster (One Day Closer) to encourage her to come forth with evidence of some sort, which, I freely admit, I did not do. However, that request was not privately mailed, nor emailed, to me, but included in a comment on a thread here at Stand Firm. I did not do so because I presumed that as a retired cleric, you were (a) an adult of (b) at least ordinary rationality, and (c) at least ordinary capacity to communicate directly with others (d) using either the (e) comment or (f) Private Message functionality of this blog site.

I will admit that I was aware that you had some connection to Salinas by virtue of another of your noms de blog (or noms de email as the case may be), if memory serves that would be the one on the HoB/D listserv, where you use a similar alias to the one you use here, but substituting “Salinas” for “Santa Fe.” My knowledge of you has never been more than is revealed by your comments, whether on the HoB/D listserv or (primarily) at this site.

I therefore can only conclude that (1) at minimum some of my presumptions listed above are in error, and (2) that you must have me confused with someone else. Interestingly, those conclusions are mutually reinforcing, as when one has developed the capacity to misremember facts and misapply reason, those behaviors (and their concomitant confusion) tend toward the habitual.

Back to Coventry with you, needless to say with God’s blessings,
Keith Toepfer

As a Hispanic woman, I have a vested interest in protecting the civil rights of my Hispanic brothers and sisters, and in “teaching Hispanic culture and education…”  However, gang activity is an unacceptable method of achieving those goals.  Violent, criminal actions cannot be tolerated in the name of promoting our Hispanic heritage.
THE FBI HAS JUST RELEASED THIS REPORT:  NATIONAL GANG THREAT ASSESSMENT 2009.
http://www.fbi.gov/page2/feb09/ngta_020609.html
The Almighty Latin King and Queen Nation is the second largest street gang in the U.S.
See the full report here: http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs32/32146/index.htm
From the RECENTLY RELEASED report:
Ñeta
Ñeta is a prison gang that began in Puerto Rico and spread to the United States. Ñeta is one of the largest and most violent prison gangs, with about 7,000 members in Puerto Rico and 5,000 in the United States. Ñeta chapters in Puerto Rico exist exclusively inside prisons; once members are released from prison they are no longer considered part of the gang. In the United States, Ñeta chapters exist inside and outside prisons in 36 cities in nine states, primarily in the Northeast. The gang’s main source of income is retail distribution of powder and crack cocaine, heroin, marijuana and, to a lesser extent, LSD, MDMA, methamphetamine, and PCP. Ñeta members commit assault, auto theft, burglary, drive-by shootings, extortion, home invasion, money laundering, robbery, weapons and explosives trafficking, and witness intimidation.

Almighty Latin King and Queen Nation (National)
The Latin Kings street gang was formed in Chicago in the 1960s and consisted predominantly of Mexican and Puerto Rican males. Originally created with the philosophy of overcoming racial prejudice and creating an organization of “Kings,” the Latin Kings evolved into a criminal enterprise operating throughout the United States under two umbrella factions—Motherland, also known as KMC (King Motherland Chicago), and Bloodline (New York). All members of the gang refer to themselves as Latin Kings and, currently, individuals of any nationality are allowed to become members. Latin Kings associating with the Motherland faction also identify themselves as “Almighty Latin King Nation (ALKN),” and make up more than 160 structured chapters operating in 158 cities in 31 states. The membership of Latin Kings following KMC is estimated to be 20,000 to 35,000. The Bloodline was founded by Luis Felipe in the New York State correctional system in 1986. Latin Kings associating with Bloodline also identify themselves as the “Almighty Latin King and Queen Nation (ALKQN).” Membership is estimated to be 2,200 to 7,500, divided among several dozen chapters operating in 15 cities in 5 states. Bloodline Latin Kings share a common culture and structure with KMC and respect them as the Motherland, but all chapters do not report to the Chicago leadership hierarchy. The gang’s primary source of income is the street-level distribution of powder cocaine, crack cocaine, heroin, and marijuana. Latin Kings continue to portray themselves as a community organization while engaging in a wide variety of criminal activities, including assault, burglary, homicide, identity theft, and money laundering.

ALSO FROM THE FBI

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 16, 2009
$10,000 REWARD OFFERED IN SEARCH FOR LATIN KING FUGITIVE
DOMINGUEZ is alleged to be a member of the Latin Kings street gang and is charged with overseeing the distribution of cocaine at various locations throughout the City of Chicago. DOMINGUEZ was among 40 gang members and associates charged as the result of an investigation code named “Operation Pesadilla”, which targeted the leadership of the notorious street gang. DOMINGUEZ is one of only four defendants from this case who is still at large.
DOMINGUEZ, who is also known as “Baby Trigger” and “Baby T”, is described as a Hispanic/male, 23 years of age, 5’9” tall, medium build, weighing approximately 170 pounds. He has black hair, brown eyes with a slight mustache and goatee. DOMINGUEZ has the letters “L K” tattooed on his chest, has an extensive criminal record and should be considered armed and dangerous.
http://chicago.fbi.gov/pressrel/2009/jan16_09.htm
U. S. Department of Justice
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Chicago FBI Press Office

From the FBI

The Latin Kings street gang was formed in Chicago in the 1960s and consisted predominantly of Mexican and Puerto Rican males. Originally created with the philosophy of overcoming racial prejudice and creating
an organization of “Kings,” the Latin Kings evolved into a criminal enterprise operating throughout the United States under two umbrella factions—Motherland, also known as KMC (King Motherland Chicago), and Bloodline (New York). All members of the gang refer to themselves as Latin Kings and, currently, individuals of any nationality are allowed to become members. Latin Kings associating with the Motherland faction also identify themselves as “Almighty Latin King Nation (ALKN),” and make up more than 160 structured chapters operating in 158 cities in 31 states. The membership of Latin Kings following KMC is estimated to be 20,000 to 35,000. The Bloodline was founded by Luis Felipe in the New York State correctional system in 1986. Latin Kings associating with Bloodline also identify themselves as the “Almighty Latin King and Queen Nation (ALKQN).” Membership is estimated to be 2,200 to 7,500, divided among several dozen chapters operating in 15 cities in 5 states. Bloodline Latin Kings share a common culture and
structure with KMC and respect them as the Motherland, but all chapters do not report to the Chicago leadership hierarchy. The gang’s primary source of income is the street-level distribution of powder cocaine, crack cocaine, heroin, and marijuana. Latin Kings continue to portray themselves as a community organization while engaging in a wide variety of criminal activities,  including assault, burglary, homicide, identity theft, and money laundering.

Yep. Sounds like a civically minded group interested in daycare and education to me!

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

BTW, the quote in #31 was from the FBI’s National Gang Threat Assessment, 2009 - the PDF of which can be found here.
Look in Appendix B, page 23 of the report of 31 of the PDF.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

Tom Woodward, though you will never admit it, you love the attention you get here and the opportunity to act the persona of the oppressed, slandered, enlightened liberal set upon and waylaid by gorillas with GOP and ACNA brownshirts and riot gear.  (Figuratively, of course!)  From your keyboard to our eyes!

2 Kings 6:8-12 (not the book of Latin Kings, which is disputed)
The Arameans Plot to Capture Elisha
8Now the king of Aram was warring against Israel; and he counseled with his servants saying, “In such and such a place shall be my camp.” 9The man of God sent word to the king of Israel saying, “Beware that you do not pass this place, for the Arameans are coming down there.” 10The king of Israel sent to the place about which the man of God had told him; thus he warned him, so that he guarded himself there, more than once or twice. 11Now the heart of the king of Aram was enraged over this thing; and he called his servants and said to them, “Will you tell me which of us is for the king of Israel?” 12One of his servants said, “No, my lord, O king; but Elisha, the prophet who is in Israel, tells the king of Israel the words that you speak in your bedroom.”

Maria and Phil,

2009, you say???

Also, does the FBI count as “public officials”?

Well, the Episcopal Church itself has become a social service organization with street gang-y qualities, so I can see the source of his confusion.

Oh dear!! Greg seems to have precipitated a gigantic wad in TBWSF’s shorts…..again. Geez people, we have got to stop confusing the good Rev.Woodie with facts. It’s simply a waste of time and facts, although watching him react like a gimlet nit-fool is certainly entertaining. What a maroon.

the snarkster™

What a wonderully entertaining thread this is!  Thanks to everyone!

And Greg, not the FBI is not “public officials”—the FBI is “The Man” aka “The Man Who Is Always Keeping Me Down” aka TMWIAKMD.  Certainly not considered a trustworthy source among the graying LSD droppers who currently lead your church into obscurity and ridicule.

Best regards,
Marty

Snarky, I agree.  Rev. Tom is delusional.  What else is new?  Getting him offended is so easy, it’s almost cruel to do it.  He’s obviously weak minded, and childlike in his view of the world.  Give him his ba-boo (bottle), plastic pull ups, and leave that boy alone!

Greg, # 34,35
Yes, Greg, 2009, is that out dated?
Why do you suppose the FBI would include “community service organizations” in their report on GANG THREAT ASSESSMENT?  Is that one-sided ?  Could it be based on their on-going investigations, observations, and intelligence? 
Is everybody at the DOJ racist?

C’mon guys!  The FBI are the oppressors.  Are you going to actually believe the FBI who describes these grass roots organizations as street gangs?  Everyboy knows George Bush put them up to it—smearing these fine upstanding young men and women.  And he did it right after he ordered Hurricane Katrina to destroy poor neighborhoods in New Orleans.  If you don’t believe me, ask Michael Moore.

It’s irrelevant what your organization actually does, just make sure your mission statement and PR are in order. Then this can be used to deconstruct any critique of your organization. Tom, too bad you didn’t work for Enron.

Stand Firm |Certified orthodox by a number of people qualified to do so.

Greg: That’s hilarious!

Should there not be a permanent HOB/D comment thread? That would be similar to sweeping the dirt on the floor into one pile in the corner.
Intercessor

Looking for Leaders,
I think your #39 was over the line in terms of personal attacks.  A snark would have ended at “almost cruel to do it.  Calling anyone “weak minded” and comparing them to infants is not the work of a Christian.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

Phil
The remarks by Tom Woodward are naive in the extreme, plain stupid or disingenuous.  Choose this day!

Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let’s not bicker and argue over who killed who.

I’m with Jeffersonian posing as the king from the Monty Python film: Let’s hammer away at Woodward’s claims; if you have to hammer at Woodward himself, at least keep it on point.

and I think we are both aware than comfortable middle class people like us have a difficult time assessing groups founded and run my marginalized people

“Comfortable middle class” ??

bbut..
I thought we were an autonomous collective ?!!

#17 writes,

I am appalled at the personal attacks above. I thought SFIF screened such stuff.

I think they usually do, but it would appear that they do make exceptions for special folks. That being said, perhaps the HoB/D list ought to be moderated.

Some new information from Spain, beyond our culture wars, where immigration from Latin America is skyrocketing and the central government has decided to outlaw the Latin Kings. Here are the final sentences from this account .

While the conservative Madrid authorities outlawed the Latin Kings in 2007, liberal Catalonia took the opposite approach, giving them the status of a cultural association. Representatives of the Latin Kings and Netas even visited the regional parliament, explaining to legislators that they were planning to make joint musical recordings to bury their hostilities. International experts on street gangs have hailed Catalonia’s ground-breaking approach, but it has not entirely eradicated inter-gang violence.

DaveG - I serve Jesus Christ.  I believe Tom Woodward is willfully ignorant on the history of the Latin Kings and other gangs.  I believe he is willfully blind to their hidden activities while talking about their community organizing ones.

But (and this is a huge but) that does not give me (or anyone else) leave to personally demean him.  Argue his ideas.  Show his errors - yes.  Even the occassional snark is OK.  But to say “Give him his ba-boo (bottle), plastic pull ups, and leave that boy alone!” is to attack a person for whom Christ died. 

As Christians - apprentices of Jesus Christ - we should be above such things.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

Tom Woodward can shut us up as well as Fr. Perschall simply by joining the Latin Kings as a full-fledged member, and help them in doing their fine work in the community.

I am sure the Latin Kings has a chapter in Santa Fe.

Peace out, homies.

DoW

My goodness!  In #26, he certainly does feel victimized by Stand Firm, doesn’t he?  “Another” smear attack?  What is going on here?  How many have there been?..... I don’t read the HOB List (or whatever it is), but if Stand Firm is going to be known for being such a bully, then I think there needs to be snappy catch phrases to capture the spirit of the alledged abuse more succinctly.  Hmmmmm….. Perhaps the HOB folks would enjoy…“My comment was Hey-jacked!” or “I was messed up by Matt!” ...something on that order.  I can’t think of one for Greg right now (sorry), but I am sure something will come to me.

IF there were something about which to be troubled when dear Fr. Tom makes his fly-by, it is that the content approaches the aspect of a “Timothy Leary” hallucinogenic episode. There is so much that is detached from the facts on the ground, so much that has more to do with open denial, wishful thinking (to put his admonitions in the best possible light), or accidental misinformation, that many assume that it is outright deliberate lying, misrepresentation or misinformation at the propaganda level. The depth to which this occurs by his own hand and then defended repeatedly and rigorously, not only here but in the hallowed hall of the HOB/D listserv, may indeed lead those impatient with perceived dementia, unaccepting of deconstructed reality or tolerance towards ultimate freedom bought by our brothers and sisters of the revolutionary 60’s, to reject his assertions with vigor and some measure of spite.

To wit, I heartily support Br. Phil’s assertion of inhospitable and unChristian behavior towards the reality-compromised TW. However, to characterize his behaviors as infantile is to do terrible injustice to the innocence and naivete of infants. Tom figures prominently in my prayers for those desperately in need of God’s grace and revelation, and will continue to be, as is the HOB/Ds and all the progressives that seek to undermine and subvert the True Church.

Tom Woodward and Louie Crew are not followers of Jesus Christ, but their own vanity.  Surely, their veneration of Latin thugs as being brave is evidence of their own depravity, and, Lord knows, they are two of the most depraved individuals I know.  They are about the destruction, rather than the building up, of the Kingdom of God.  Heck, Woodward claims Fred Phelps as a lawyer who defended him for his own civil rights disobedience in the 60’s.  He wears it as a badge of honor.  Phil, Tom isn’t willfully ignorant of everything.  He is a deconstructionist, plain and simple.  He doesn’t hold to any moral position, he simply wishes to destroy the current structures of society, whatever they are, because he is wingnut from the 60’s who felt that deconstructionism was his mission in life.  Lot of folks living with that error.  Louie Crew, on the other hand, is an ivory tower academic politico from the 1950’s with his dream of leaving his big gay mark on the Episcopal Church, nothing more. Well, Louie, you succeeded, and I’m sure you’ll end up with your own feast day in TEC after you have been dead long enough.
And, yeah, well, the Latin Kings have transformed themselves into a Kiwanis or Rotary Club.  And the bailout will save the economy.  Give me a break.
What do Tom Woodward, Louie Crew, and the Latin Kings have in common?  The pollution of society with that which is evil, bad, distracts us from the human, spiritual, and self-sacrificing values of life for the profane, the materialistic, the self-gratifying - everything which Jesus Christ rejected from himself and showed us the way to salvation.

Incidentally, I know Tom and Louie personally - they are very nice guys, but very misguided, and therefore very dangerous.

YBIC,
Brad Drell

P.S.  I rarely even read Anglican blogs anymore since I’m an insolvency professional in this economy, but if someone really gets after me on this thread, please, those of you that know me, email me - you have the address.  Hey, I might even respond.

Tom cannot and will not even try to show why and where and how his assertions on anything is correct and right…..He can’t and he knows it! So he like all Liberal Left Loons….they resort to the “You all are being so mean spirited and unkind. How dare you and you call yourselves Christians! REALLY!” It’s a typical ....make them look bad because I have no leg to stand on and I cannot defend justly my position so I’ll make them look bad instead!

Tom this mentality of thinking is a really tired and worn out path….please find something else to come back with that is filled with facts and proof and do try and stay in reality a while….The Truth really does set a person free! You should try it sometime you may find that you like it!

The Latin Kings are one of the biggest and dangerous gangs in the US, and they are tied to the Mexican mafia. I became aware of them when their crimes started being reported in Rhode Island, where I lived. They are heavily involved in the drug importation and distribution throughout the country, cocaine, heroin, meth, you name it, they are behind it. In RI, they were killing people left and right, including one high profile case, a young man, and then the young man’s girlfriend (17 years old) who had agreed to testify against the gang member who killed her boyfriend. She was shot on the steps of the house her family’s apartment was in. Drive by shootings, in ‘05 they attempted to kidnap the wife of a police officer at a local mall, and months later, they almost killed a kid at the same mall, they’d picked him up and hung him by his feet upside down from the third floor of the mall, threatening to drop him. In New Bedford, MA, they infest public housing, taking it over and selling drugs from their apartments, conducting a reign of terror over their frightened neighbors. I was in Chicago last August, and the news was filled with reports about a drug bust of Latin King’s members, it was reported that they ran a multimillion dollar cocaine operation in that city. Also, I remember the year that those four black college students were shot, three killed by illegal alien gang members, in Newark, NJ. There was a protest organized to demand the mayor deal with the problem of gangs in the city. A group of Hispanic Americans planned to speak out at the protest, to offer a counterpoint to the illegal alien activists who attempt to paint any demands that immigration laws be enforced as “racism”, but the protest had to be called off, as the Latin Kings and other similar gangs like MS13 had threatened the lives of those Hispanic Americans if they dared to attend. The police and the city took back the permit that had been provided for the protest.

Anyone who claims the Latin Kings are just a “cultural” organization, don’t actually care about real culture or heritage, they are seeking to promote negative cultural behaviors, like thuggery, abusive and corrupt behavior. That priest sounds as though he was involved in the criminal activity and perhaps even found it profitable for himself. The Latin Kings enslave, exploit and abuse young people, they murder, rape and destroy lives.

Phil, I appreciate your kind note. Thank you.

Martial Artist, I apologize for confusing you with One Day Closer. I acknowledge that you are absolutely right in your response and ask your forgiveness.

One Day Closer—it is long past time for you to be honest about the wild charges you made—quite different from the sarcasm and put downs on SFIF.

Re: this thread. I am well aware that individuals in both these groups are involved in violence—and I join with others in condemning it. I note, though, that the priest in question has not been disciplined by his bishop nor have charges been brought against him, even by the very conservative priests in his diocese. The reason he is spending a short time in prison is that he joined others in protesting an institution operated by our country which has trained terrorists in various Latin American countries. I hope you all join him in that protest.

Brad (56) I am shocked that you would assert that I am not a follower of Jesus Christ. You are out of step with your compatriots in the Network who supported me for national office in the Episcopal Church and with most, if not all the conservative bishops in the Episcopal Church. 

I am proud that I stood up to a university that blatantly discriminated against Black students back in 1965. Fred Phelps was my lawyer then and he was very, very good. He has since gone round the bend, but he was good then. I am proud of my teaching at three of our seminaries and of my twenty-three years of campus ministry and over 18 years of parish ministry. I am grateful for my growing relationship with Jesus Christ.

No moral position? My morals are a matter of public record, Brad. I co-authored the Wisconsin Active Investor Plan which has been copied by other public pension funds as a means of dealing with corporate bad citizenship and immorality—as such I went head to head with Roger Smith, CEO of General Motors. I also authored the follow up to the Sullivan Principles as a way of providing moral and ethical ways for U.S. companies to invest in South Africa following the bypassing of the Sullivan Principles through licensing.

Many have cited my decency and moral courage as having played a part in their decision to serve the church as priests, deacons or dedicated lay people. You, sir, in your accusations against me reveal yourself as a fool.

I applaud your dedication to prison ministry, work I share with you, having been involved in various aspects of that ministry since 1973. I do not applaud your ethical standards as an attorney—but it looks like you may have a quite different understanding of moral and ethical behavior than what has guided Christians over the years. It leaves you in a poor position to be pointing fingers at anyone.

Apparently you know nothing about my life in the church, Brad. I hope you serve your clients better than the way you have treated truth in your diatribe.

Wow, y’all are still reading TBW’s er…stuff?  And responding to it?  Watching paint dry is of far more value.

There is a not-so-subtle difference between being a “follower of Jesus Christ” and being a disciple of JC and/or a servant of JC.

One is reminded of the relative commitment of the hog and the chicken to a bacon and egg breakfast.

However, those who reject the authority and power of Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, instead choosing to be guided by human reason fueled by concepts of secular humanism, might well be exaggerating when they claim to be followers of Jesus Christ. Alternatively, if they are spiritual persons, they have perhaps failed to realize that the devil comes to us wearing a Jesus costume, asking us to follow him.

60, TBW, wrote “I do not applaud your [Brad Drell’s] ethical standards as an attorney”

Now there’s a statement that demands proof or retraction.  Nothing in Mr. Drell’s post told us anything about his ethical standards as an attorney, so TBW is either smearing or relying on outside knowledge.  Put up or back off.

Brad Drell—as we have been informed numerous times by Tom Woodward—truly truly orthodox people all love him and think he’s fantastic and have him Certified Orthodox.

So . . . I can only guess that you are not orthodox.

I hope you’re not going to tell us that you’re a member of the Network either.  For as Woodward tells us, “your compatriots in the Network” . . .  “supported me for national office in the Episcopal Church” and indeed “most, if not all the conservative bishops in the Episcopal Church.”

I’m not even certain, Brad, that you’re a Real Episcopalian either.

For all Good Men and True have certified Tom Woodward as Orthodox.  Didn’t you know?

All I know personally is that Tom Woodward reveals why the Network wasn’t all that successful over the past five years, with sharp thinking like that.

DavidH,

RE: “Now there’s a statement that demands proof or retraction.”

Oh, I don’t know.  Depends, I suppose, on whether Brad particularly cares about what Woodward thinks of him.  My bet is that he’s as indifferent as I am.

After all, knowing that Woodward defines words in the deconstructionist way that Drell so aptly describes, most likely the “ethical standards” that Woodward is talking about Brad wouldn’t want to emulate anyway.

I hope you’re not going to tell us that you’re a member of the Network either.  For as Woodward tells us, “your compatriots in the Network” . . .  “supported me for national office in the Episcopal Church” and indeed “most, if not all the conservative bishops in the Episcopal Church.”

I have seen this claim from Rev. Woodward 3 or 4 times now, without any reference to what office or in which convention.  Does anyone know?  Since, apparently, he is not in said “national office,” one is led to the inescapable conclusion that the non-orthodox of TEC must have banded together to keep him out of it. Was it that the author of so many documents ranging from ecumenical theology to investment reports, full supporter of SSBs, Mormon and Buddhist bishops, a metropolitan office for the PB, and lawsuits was not liberal enough? Could it be that a more progressive candidate was put forward?  Or was it that Evangelicals in TEC broke ranks with their bishops because of the papal imprimatur that Fr. Woodward possesses?

Net search is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?  There are several references to Rev. Woodward when cross referenced with “Wisconsin Active Investor Plan.”  Eliminating the posts on this blog over the last 2 days leaves 2, 1 from the Episcopal Church archives and the other from Church Publishing, both referencing the same document- the Church Pension Fund trustee nominations (the “national office”).  It is in the bio on Tom Woodward, written by Tom Woodward.

The Rev. Thomas B. Woodward
Santa Fe, NM
El Camino Real, VIII
Wisconsin’s governor appointed me as Trustee of the
State’s Investment Board (current assets of $75B) for
my ability to deal with spiritual and fiduciary aspects
of pension fund issues. I represented the Board to the
State Legislature and in direct negotiations with the
boards of General Motors and United Technologies;
co-authored the Wisconsin Active Investor Plan, a
model for public pension funds in addressing social
responsibility and corporate citizenship issues; and
shared in the oversight of investments and policy
development. I have wide experience and training in
strategic planning, organizational development, and in
the work of non-profit boards and have been especially
successful in building consensus among diverse
perspectives in balancing social and fiduciary
responsibilities. My wide-ranging career in parish and
specialized ministries has always been marked by a
concern for the care and nurture of clergy. Having
recently retired as rector in ECR, I now live in New
Mexico.

So, whatever bishop, liberal or conservative, supported Tom Woodward, was not supporting his theology, they just thought he would do an honest job keeping track of the pension fund.  It is in no way a support or recommendation of his philosophy or theology. 
My search did not turn up any other reference to “Wisconsin Active Investor Plan.”

TJ—the full title is “The State of Wisconsin Investment Board.” Recently it had over 90 billion dollars in assets. I was appointed because of my commitment to the moral use of money as well as for meeting the requirements of the position. Hope that helps.

My comments about Brad’s practice of law come directly from his own description of part of his practice. Brad knows what I am talking about.

Great Scott, I would be worried if the former Network bishops supported my theological differences with them, though on 95% of our theology, we are in full agreement. What is important to me is that most respect my integrity and my loyalty to Jesus Christ.

Regarding this string: People who attended the baptism in question note that the Daily News story was not correct. If you follow the Daily News, you are not surprised. You can check with Bishop Mark Sisk, Diocesan Bishop of New York for confirmation.

The second matter: your information about NETA is shoddy and incomplete. Yes, there are violent chapters, including on in the Lower East Side in Manhattan. There is another chapter in New York City which does precisely the social service projects I noted earlier. To confuse the two does a great injustice to the second.

You should also be aware of the underbelly of the groups which have provided the materials you have cited over and over again. While the NYC police department does many things well, they are also notorious for their criminal behavior. Check out the two Amnesty International reports on the New York Police Department and the Blue Code.

Tom
As Martial Artist has stated above you have misapplied an accusation to me…..I have never charged you with anything other than being a double-tongue talker. You say and speak one way on the HOB/D List Serv and then you come here and speak and talk another way. I have never met you in Salinas nor in Santa Fe nor anywhere else…...You are the one mis-charging people with accusations to dodge the reality of your words. I have nothing to come clean with unlike you!

How do you figure that 95%, Mr. Woodward, since you aren’t even Nicene in your beliefs - i.e., you disbelieve in Christ’s Resurrection ad His Virgin Birth?

There is another chapter in New York City which does precisely the social service projects I noted earlier.
Maybe they’re practicing the inside strategy?

To confuse the two does a great injustice to the second.

The same can be said about Episcopal churches.  Some support all sorts of godless depravity, while others hold fast and true to the faith delivered—and are eager to be disassociated from the word “Episcopal” lest they be confused with the former.

Interesting that neither of you responded to the substance of my remarks.

Phil, I resent your characterization of my beliefs.  Perhaps a good question to you would be: which account of the resurrection do you believe? which account of the Ascension do you believe?  Do you believe that the resurrected body of Jesus was fully enfleshed? or was it a spiritual body—or did it change according to circumstance?  Better be careful, one slip and you are no longer a follower of Jesus Christ.

Actually I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and have lived that and taught it for over 40 years. I believe in the Creedal affirmation of the Virgin Birth. I have written about it, taught it and it has been an important part of my prayer life and living for over 40 years.

Now, for your own orthodoxy. Do you believe that observance of the fullness of the Torah is required for those who follow Jesus? After all, Jesus said “not one jot or tittle of the Law. . .”

Do you believe the church was wrong over the centuries in excluding women from leadership in the church? ditto with Blacks? Is masturbation a mortal sin? Did the church err in reversing 2000 years of teaching that wives are property? how about remarriage after divorce? Do you believe in the pacifist teachings of Jesus - or in a culturally watered down version of the just war? How are you with capital punishment? Are you regularly taking public stands against it as Jesus would? What do you believe really happened at the Ascension? Have you ever withheld your taxes in protest of atrocities committed by our country? (you may not be aware of those)

You and others at SFIF are quite good at demanding answers from those who have sought to engage you, I hope you are as good at responding to them.

TBW, please pardon me, but I’m curious to which “national office” you speak of.

Fr. Woodword, getting back to the topic of this thread, would you clarify some facts and your opinions?

Did Luis Barrios “bless-in” about 300 children into Ñeta and the Latin Kings as was reported in the Daily News?  Yes or no? 

Do you agree that Ñeta and the Latin Kings are violent gangs?  Yes or no? 
We already know that you decry the violence of some “individuals” in both “groups” but that is not the question.

The FBI and numerous news sources besides the Daily News all identify Ñeta and the Latin Kings as violent gangs. 
Are you saying this is not so because the NYC Police Dept. “is also notorious for their criminal behavior?”

You say that there is a chapter of Ñeta in New York City which does precisely the social service projects that you noted earlier.  Would it not seem prudent for this chapter to change their name and affiliation?
To say that Ñeta is a social service group is analogous to saying that the KKK is a group dedicated to promoting our Southern heritage.  If there was a chapter of the KKK which claimed to be involved in social service projects, I think we would all be somewhat suspicious of that claim.  Would you agree?

I don’t think anyone is going to make much headway against a man who quotes a movie review to counter hard news items. Apparently they are equivalents to Fr. Tom.

What an astounding thread.  I was reading it along in quiet dread until I hit snarkster’s #37, then I couldn’t stop laughing for 5 minutes or more.  The reality of what so much of TEC has become, is just so insane, so twisted and destructive, a dybbuk of the church that can be charming, that it is darkly funny to those who see the dybbuk for what it is.  TEC is overrun with people who just can’t seem to grasp the obvious.  Someone dialoguing with them is not pointless;  what is pointless is that the church itself be held hostage to it.  Someone should be dialoguing with people like Tom Woodward;  but someone else should be curtailing the enormous destruction and injury he and those like him cause.  Presently, those who seem unable to grasp the obvious want everyone who questions them to dialogue with them.  The patients insist on directing and prescribing for any who question them.  And the entire hospital suffers from their misplaced authority and careless actions.

Thank you, Greg, for exposing conditions on the ward.

The Daily News piece does not represent “hard news.” The NYT review is of a documentary film. There have been books written by independent observers regarding the diversity of groups within NETA and the Kings. The activities of those groups SFIF’ers put their trust in against innocent members of the Brooklyn based group is well documented outside the groups which made the spurious raids.

I know you have your self-referenced reputation as the sole fount of truth to protect, but you all have been consistently wrong in the matter of Fr. Barrios. He is a well-respected full professor at a prestigious law school and is, in addition, well respected by his bishop and diocese.  Despite the smell of fresh meat here, you are wrong.  That you would join Don Perschall in the character assasination of a good priest does not surprise me—it appalls me.

I do not applaud your ethical standards as an attorney.

TBW:  Are you suggesting that Brad has done something unethical?  If he has something unethical that would be the responsibility of the Louisiana Bar Association would it not?  Brad’s father is a Federal judge in Western Louisiana and one would assume that Brad would be especially cognizant of the ethical standards expected of attorneys. 
Apparently you have nothing to support your statement.

Sorry, snickerers, you have been consistently wrong in your assessment of Fr. Barrios and of the baptisms in question and of the particular chapter or organization of NETA in question. Academic research and Amnesty International and the Bishop’s Office in the Diocese of New York all document what you have gotten wrong. The best thing to do in those situations is to admit your error and move on and leave the personal snickers and Brad Drell kinds of attacks for another time.

Maria, please re-read my recent posting about the realities of the two NETA groups in New York City. Your logic is faulty. There are two groups bearing the name of NETA in NYC. Both have their roots in protesting brutality in the prisons of Puerto Rico. Both carried that concern into their lives in the U.S..  One has become violent—the other has not. To confuse the two is pardonable, to be sure; but once having the knowledge of the two separate groups, further confusion is immoral.

Piedmont, I am not making a charge of unethical behavior regarding Brad. I mentioned his personal standards. I have no doubt that Brad is a fully competent attorney. I do not believe that he is even-handed with some who would avail themselves of his services.

I believe he sees himself as a model Christian, though he has little difficulty in trashing others’ dedication to Jesus Christ.

Mr. Woodward,

Since I’m relaying the content of your own words, posted by you at this site, I’m not sure on what basis you “resent” what I wrote.  I’ve posted a précis of those remarks at least three times.  I won’t waste any more of SF’s disk space doing so again, but, if you’re as much of a Renaissance Man as you think, I’m sure you can figure out how to use a search function somewhere.  Since you know very well what you believe and what you wrote, though, you can probably save yourself the time.

As far as the rest, I’ve been told time and time and time and time again – as a defense against Episcopalian sexual libertine beliefs, natch; what else is ECUSA about these days, after all – that if it isn’t mentioned in the Creed, it doesn’t matter what one believes.  Putting aside the irony that Episcopalianism spits on the Creed, too, then – it shouldn’t matter to you if I think we should constantly be at war, torture our prisoners and let the poor rot in the street.  Those aren’t mentioned in the Creed, just like it also doesn’t say the greatest sins are transgressing Episcopalian borders and believing in Christian marriage.

Barrios behavior is very like that of a cult member or leader. As many rationales for ignoring the criminal and violent behavior of his gang banger criminal “congregation”, a willing indifference to how they violate the regligious beliefs he is supposed to uphold and preach. He excuses their indoctrinating innocent children in a path of murder, the buying, selling of drugs, profiting from destroying the lives of others. He promotes a mindset that isolates his group from wider society, promotes hatred and intolerance, excuses for their slaughtering innocent Americans, because they are part of a nation they seek to blame for things they have no hand in or control over.

Calling yourself a community organizer or claiming to do charitable works does not make one caring, or altruistic. Nor does using the archetype of a grandmother, or other familial archetypes, make one a true family. The mafia does the same, as do many other criminal organizations and cults. Groups like NETA, MECHA and other ethnic supremacist/hate groups seek to exploit poverty, and actually perpetuate it and suffering. NETA in fact is now considered an international criminal organization that is on the watch lists of Interpol and other nation’s police forces.

If these groups are being embraced by some in TEC, perhaps it’s because they choose to ally with those who actually use the same methods, and for the same reasons, exploitation and abuse of power.

There are many despots and monsters throughout history who claimed an altruistic motivation, and whether it’s Jim Jones, Fred Phelps, Hitler, Mao, Mussolini, Lenin, Stalin, Che Guevara, all were corrupt, hateful and brutal murderers, cowards, and oppressors. With each increase of power, their true colors were revealed.

I do not believe that he is even-handed with some who would avail themselves of his services.

TBW: What information have you received that would lead you to such a belief?  Do you know any of Brad’s clients?  If any of them had an issue with Brad not being “even-handed” why would somebody in cental Louisiana contact a retired Episcopal priest in Sante Fe?  I do not believe that you have any such knowledge.

Mari:  Fred Phelps may be unpopular but he is no murderer.

OK, Tom, let’s assume that there are two distinct groups that go by the name of ÑETA.  Why would the benevolent service group INVITE confusion by calling themselves by the name of a violent gang?  Normally, when the values and objectives of a group change, they separate, and change their names.

What does all of this have to do with Fr. Barrios?  Did Luis Barrios “bless-in” about 300 children into Ñeta and the Latin Kings as was reported in the Daily News?  Yes or no?
Can you point us to the actual facts of this situation?

Drug money will buy a lot of positive PR, same as any other money.

As a prison chaplain for a few years, and still active, somewhat in prison ministry, I can tell you, they are a gang, that’s “G-A-N-G,” gang….

Well, Tom in this thread has accused the NYPD of being a criminal organization and the Latin Kings as being a community service organization.  Then he says I am bad.  Well, I’d be a lot more worried if he said I was any good at all.  I have no idea what Tom is talking about when he mentions something about my law practice.  Yeah, I am a business bankruptcy lawyer who since December has been scrambling to save business, and when that doesn’t work, to get the assets back into production - saving people’s jobs and livelihoods.  Martindale Hubbell has given me the highest ethical rating possible, which is the result of peer review by lawyers I’ve had cases with.  So, I am not really worried what Tom Woodward thinks of me.  Frankly, I don’t care what any of the Episcopal leftist wackadoos think of me. 

For the record, I voted for Tom to be on the church pension board.  Kinda like the time I voted for Governor Edwards here in Louisiana instead of David Duke.

Tom is, in his own mind, a follower of Jesus Christ. Heck, considering the parts of his resume he spouts on this thread, he’s a legend in his own mind.

Tom accuses me of playing fast and loose with the truth, yet doesn’t dispute anything I say.  He doesn’t dispute that he is a deconstructionalist, and that, for him, there is no ultimate moral truth other than his own experience.  If I am wrong about saying Tom is a deconstructionalist, then let him say so.  I’ve read Tom’s postings for going on five years now, I’ve even read an Easter sermon by him, and I’ve argued with him about the Ascension (which he calls the Levitation), the Virgin Birth, and the Resurrection.  Everything I’ve read by him tells me he is a desonstructionalist, because he thinks any traditional understanding of the Bible or even human history is nothing but white males keeping everyone else down and is therefore suspect.  Therefore, conventional theology, heck, even conventional human thought, has to go, in Tom’s world, because it is bad bad bad.  NYPD bad, Latin Kings good, you know the drill.

I therefore can say truthfully that no one that I know as a Christian could say that they agree with Tom on 95% of theological issues.  When he talks about resurrection, ethics, church, or just about anything and I talk about these same things, we aren’t in the same ballpark.  Heck, we aren’t even playing the same sport. I wouldn’t even try to put a percentage on it; I’d put it on a curve moving infinitely towards zero.

A desconstructionalist can’t follow Christ; he’s too busy deconstructing Him.  Following well, means following, not twisting His words and actions to mean what someone wants them to mean.  There’s plenty of uncomfortable stuff in the Gospel.  Remarriage after divorce is a no-no, which God has permitted us only because of the hardness of our hearts.  A bunch of other stuff is a no-no too that we wish wasn’t.  A follower of Christ takes all this at face value, realizing that we come up short, and gets back to work on it.  A deconstructionalist destroys it.

I am refering to the Latin Kings.

My how the story changes.  We begin with an accusation of unethical behavior. 

I do not applaud your [Brad Drell’s] ethical standards as an attorney—but it looks like you may have a quite different understanding of moral and ethical behavior than what has guided Christians over the years. [60] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 02-21-2009 at 01:01 AM

How else is one supposed to understand this comment?  BDs ethical standards are labeled as not worth applauding.  Such a nicely ambiguous phrase.  The reader is left to fill in the details for good or ill.  He is given no specific charge, but only a vague reference to some happening or event that only selective people are allowed to know.  But he is told that this happening or event was not driven by Christian moral and ethical behavior.  TBW stands before the assembly and shouts “I have here a list, and Brad Drell’s name is on it!”  Evidently, we are just supposed to trust him.

TBW is told to put or shut up, and he politely declines. 

My comments about Brad’s practice of law come directly from his own description of part of his practice. Brad knows what I am talking about. [68] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 02-21-2009 at 10:40 AM

Brad may know what he is talking about, but none of the rest of us do.  TBW feels comfortable making a vague unsubstantiated charge, and then slips away from defending his action by saying “Brad Drell knows he is guilty!”  The evidence is perhaps in the public record, or perhaps isn’t.  If it is in the public record, then TBW should have no compunction about revealing the contents.  If it isn’t in the public record, then why is he revealing private conversations here?  If he thinks it is private, but should be made public, then why isn’t he revealing details?  Perhaps because a smear always works best when you leave the details up to the imagination of the reader.  It’s hard for the victim of a smear to defend himself when he doesn’t even know the charges against him. 

Once again TBW is called on his lack of specificity.  But the story now subtly shifts. 

  I am not making a charge of unethical behavior regarding Brad. I mentioned his personal standards. I have no doubt that Brad is a fully competent attorney. I do not believe that he is even-handed with some who would avail themselves of his services.  [82] Posted by TBWSantaFe on 02-21-2009 at 01:07 PM

Except TBW said:

I do not applaud your [Brad Drell’s] <u>ethical standards as an attorney</u>—but it looks like you may have a quite different understanding of moral and ethical behavior than what has guided Christians over the years.

But we do now get a little piece of light.  Not enough to make any judgment, but just enough so that the careless reader may start to have doubts.  “Not evenhanded.”  What exactly does that mean?  No one is even-handed in all things.  Nor should he be.  Just more vague puffery to produce smoke in hopes of convincing people that there is fire.

TBW, this is a despicable, and contemptible display. If you have something to say, then say it.  Otherwise, be silent. In the meantime, I shall ponder why I ever defended you in PMs to the moderators on this blog.

carl

Funnier still is Tom’s accusation that I’m not being even handed with some who would avail themselves of my services.  I totally don’t get that.  Yeah, I got Piskie liberals banging down my door for representation of them.

There’s a line of them on MacArthur Drive…I can see them all…begging me to sue over properties and force their deconstructionalist agenda on the few conservatives left in the church, or get them out of jail for being in some stupid sit-in somewhere.  Or, better, yet, suing to stop the flow of public money to social services organizations that happen to be Christian. 

Well, yeah, I probably wouldn’t be even handed if those folks asked me for representation.  Probably wouldn’t use a hand at all.  A finger, perhaps, but not a hand.

Yeah, I realize that isn’t what Jesus would do.  It is something Brad Drell would do, so I guess I need to work on that.

The best thing to do in those situations is to admit your error and move on and leave the personal snickers and Brad Drell kinds of attacks for another time.

Fellow snickerers:  TBW is onto our strategy. It’s time to change our game plan.  Switch to Sarah Hey kinds of attacks.

Coach Piedmont

I am refering to the Latin Kings.

Thanks for clarifying that you weren’t referring to the HoB.

Coach:
Don’t change a winning strategy in the middle of the game.  Carl now knows who Tom is and won’t be defending him any more the moderators of Stand Firm.

Mission accomplished.  Brad Drell kinds of attacks work - kinda like a gadget play.

Heck, Woodward claims Fred Phelps as a lawyer who defended him for his own civil rights disobedience in the 60’s.

Fred Phelps is no longer an attorney.  He was disbarred in Kansas.

You are correct Piedmont, and I shouldn’t have included him. I had originally intended to write about those who started out seeming to or intending to do good, but who went over the edge. I apologize as I got called away from the laptop to take care of the dishwasher, as my daughter found water leaking out of it onto the kitchen floor. I lost my train of thought by the time I got back to finish my post.

[92] carl,

I apologize in advance for finding it necessary to correct you, but in writing

TBS, this is a despicable, and contemptible display

you needlessly and, I must humble suggest, negligently omitted the other salient characteristic of his diplay, namely that it is pusillanimous.

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

#99 Martial Artist
Uneasy lies the head that wears the Crown.

http://www.swib.state.wi.us/performance.asp
Returns for calender year 2008 for the Wisconsin Fund referenced by TBWSantaFe:
Core Fund was -26.2% while its benchmark was -24.8%
The site does not disclose what benchmark were selected by the fund for the comparison. In any event, if I was a Trustee of that fund I don’t think I would be ballyhooing my role as its Trustee. Part of the problem with many of our state pension funds is that their trustees/directors are often not selected based on financial expertise and a sense of the bottom line. The biggest “social responsibility” of a recipient of institutional shareholder money is to deliver a return on that investment.

101—I would add, an actively managed, large fund, should be beating the index. Otherwise, they should get rid of all of their money managers, salaries and overhead, and simply invest in indexes.

MR. TBW,
You have a strange farrago of beliefs that you are questioning us about, as if they were all equal, and as if the answers were all obvious.

As for me, I believe in the Resurrection and Ascension in the same sense as the Church has always believed them.  The nature of Christ’s resurrected body and of exactly what happened at the Ascension,  are somewhat mysterious to be sure.  St. Thomas could touch Jesus and he ate fish, but was able to walk through a door.  More than that we really don’t know.  We know that the disciples saw him and talked to him, and that on the day of the Ascension, he seemed to them to go up and disappear.  I believe that he “ascended into heaven” but of course not that heaven is geographically up.  I don’t feel in any way intellectually superior to those whose idea of the cosmos allowed heaven to be “up,” however. 

Lets see, what else.  I think it is impossible for women to be priests.  Of course there are leadership positions they can fill….try Abbess for one in which women formerly exercised considerable power.    There isn’t an equivalence between the sacrificial priesthood and the category “leadership position.”    I have no opinion about “blacks” different from my opinion about any other human beings with respect to the categories of “priest”  and “in a leadership position.”  No, I am not a pacifist although I recognize that as an honorable minority position within Christianity.  I do generally believe in just war theory, although I think it is very hard to apply to war with modern weapons.  I would be willing for us not to have capital punishment with our current ability to imprison dangerous people with a great degree of certainty that they will stay imprisoned,  but I do not think the death penalty is intrinsically wrong, and my inclination is to think that confession and absolution on the scaffold, and the ritual pardoning of the executioner, is really a much more Christian scenario. I don’t see how you know what Jesus’ view of this matter would be.  On the other hand I think it is entirely wrong to kill those innocent of any crime other than that of Adam, especially those most unable to defend themselves, and I think you know who I mean. And I think it is clear what Jesus’ view of that would be! Something like what his people thought of offerings to Moloch.  Yes, I think masturbation can be a mortal sin, under the usual criteria for mortal sin,  knowledge that it is gravely wrong and full consent of the will.  Whether full consent of the will often applies to this sin might be doubtful.  Let’s see, what else.  Remarriage after “divorce”?  No, those who were married as Christians, with full understanding of what they were doing, are married for life and there is no such thing as divorce.  The civil act of divorce does not free a Christian to remarry. 
Taxes?  Well if the US government starts paying for abortions I might start to worry about this.  I think first I would work towards the election of government officials who would reverse this policy. 

About your assertion that there is one group called Neta which is a criminal gang, while there is another which is a volunteer social service and cultural promotion organization, wouldn’t you think the second group,  if entirely unconnected with the first, would want to change its name so as to avoid confusion?  I have no access to any facts, but their keeping the same name does make me wonder if they have really thoroughly dissociated themselves and repudiated the behavior of the other same named group.

I was responding to a post of TBW way up above, but I had to interrupt my writing of it to cook a chicken and make muffins and go out and feed the living chickens and collect the eggs and things like that. 

I see that someone else already pointed out the obvious “why don’t they change their name?” question. 

I suspect my serious response was kind of wasted, anyway.  But I was annoyed at the assumption that certain positions were the only moral ones. 
Susan Peterson

Tom Woodward, I repeat my #33 above - you comment here because you love attention and playing the victim - much like the norm for TEC revisionists.

Apparently you have learned much from the gan.., er, Hispanic culture and social reform organizations you champion and defend.  Except your shanks are verbal, not metal, though they may leave an unwary victim bleeding self-worth and reputation, as you slip away from behind the ribs between which you have slipped your vauge slanderous insinuations.  Brad has defended himself quite well with the mere truth, though none of us here think for a minute that your accusations are any less a vapor than your self-acclamations.

Tom, please set us straight on doctrine instead of begging the question.  Just what specifically are your beliefs on:
* Whether Jesus had a human father also the son of a human father and mother
* Whether Jesus is divine, true God from true God, or is He only a vehicle to the divine, while not being divine Himself
* Whether Jesus’ risen body was “fully enfleshed”, solid to the touch (His disciples took hold of His feet and worshipped Him; “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended” not to scold Mary but to urge her to tell the others quickly, that He would not disappear like a hallucination) as He Himself said, “touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have”
* What really happened at the Ascencion?  Did Jesus leave this earth in a solid, tangible physical body to, as He put it for our limited understanding, sit at the right hand of the Father, to return at the time that then only the Father knew to begin His reign that now would never end?

These questions can be answered with “yes” or “no”.  Any other answer, no matter how detailed or deferring to your favorite authorities, that leaves any doubt as to your beliefs, is an evasion and a dodge, much more so than your accusations of others on comments above of evasion.
The church can and did and does err, and that is sufficient answer to your other questions about our beliefs.  Time to forward your clear, orthodox beliefs on the central Christology issues you so love to muddy.

Also, how dare you make Jesus accuser of forgiven and repentant, though sinful Christians, by stifling His words short and twisting their meaning?  I refer to your comment #74:

Now, for your own orthodoxy. Do you believe that observance of the fullness of the Torah is required for those who follow Jesus? After all, Jesus said “not one jot or tittle of the Law. . .”

How you twist the meaning!

Matthew 5:17-20
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The point Jesus is making in this passage, echoed by the whole New Testament, is that Jesus’ finished work on the cross is the end of righteousness from the Law for all who believe in Him.  All was fulfilled on the cross and at the empty tomb.

If we go a little farther in the same passage, we see that you, Tom Woodward, have some explaining to do.  In your #60 above, you write:

Brad (56) I am shocked that you would assert that I am not a follower of Jesus Christ. ... You, sir, in your accusations against me reveal yourself as a fool.

How free you are with your name-calling!  Now tell us why you disregard Jesus’ warning so lightly:

Matthew 5:21-22
21"You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Well?  We await your answers.  Perhaps this time you will not ignore the questions or bury them with a mountain of accusations or protestations of your certified orthodoxy.  I do not accuse you; your own words stand in stark contrast to Jesus’ words in the passage you wish to use as a verbal shank between the ribs.

Has anyone here ever noticed that TBW approaches the “conversations” here in the same way that the antagonist in classic Errol Flynn movies handles a press in a sword fight - he finds himself beset and disadvantaged in the duel he grabs for any object in sight - candelabra, a chair, a suit of armor to throw at the hero or otherwise distract him. Witness the comments in [74]. A flurry of frantic arguments and counter-charges, meant to distract his opponents from driving home the points. In fact reminiscent of this exchange in Princess Bride:

Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right… and who is dead.
Vizzini: But it’s so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy’s? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You’ve made your decision then?
Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder’s origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You’re just stalling now.
Vizzini: You’d like to think that, wouldn’t you? You’ve beaten my giant, which means you’re exceptionally strong, so you could’ve put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you’ve also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You’re trying to trick me into giving away something. It won’t work.
Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU’VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!
Man in Black: Then make your choice.
Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?
Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
Man in Black: What? Where? I don’t see anything.
Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let’s drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.
Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]
Man in Black: You guessed wrong.
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That’s what’s so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha…
Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead]
Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.
Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

See what I mean?

And I apologize that I cannot for my very life take Tom in any way seriously. I have been raised in a very liberal family, and have known some truly sacrificial and noble liberals in my time. But I have also know many who are of Tom’s ilk, trading on a “reputation” and claims of office and influence, whose whole focus is not in truly helping people, but performing one or two high-profile “acts” of protest, things that are showy but ultimately meaningless. Or acting as liberal chorus to others’ acts of self-sacrifice or efforts at real (or feigned) social justice and claiming solidarity with those that suffer, from the comfort of an urbane and statussed lifestyle.

This sort of lifestyle has nothing in common with a street-level ministry, here or elsewhere, with the very real needs of those whose lives hang in the balance day-in and day-out, with actually doing something meaningful, not in some vague and self-satisfied sort of way, but in a real gritty uncomfortable and life-changing way. It is deeply revealing of Tom’s character, which is why I am adamant about praying for him and those like him, that God speak directly, deeply and lovingly into their hearts to strip away this delusion, this desire for affirmation of status and influence, and turn them again to love and serve in real and discernibly Christian ways - as true servants of the risen (physically and spiritually) and triumphant Christ.

Heh.

RE: ““Frankly, I don’t care what any of the Episcopal leftist wackadoos think of me.”

I’ve been away all day in training, and I return to the recognition that Brad Drell cares as much about Tom Woodward’s opinions about his “ethics” as I care about Tom Woodwards opinions about pretty-much-anything-at-all-about-me.

Any attempted insults that Woodward makes I take as full-hearted commendations.

They’re like medals of honor for us here at StandFirm.

RE: “So, whatever bishop, liberal or conservative, supported Tom Woodward, was not supporting his theology, they just thought he would do an honest job keeping track of the pension fund.  It is in no way a support or recommendation of his philosophy or theology.”

But boy, was he going to imply it until he got caught, TJ. Thanks for the digging.

Everyone—at least all the conservatives—please note how Woodward attempts to deceive people.  This is how revisionists are.  We can learn from the likes of Woodward’s rhetoric.  When your bishop or priest smiles at you and says: “I am shocked that you would assert that I am not a follower of Jesus Christ. You are out of step with your compatriots in the Network who supported me for national office in the Episcopal Church and with most, if not all the conservative bishops in the Episcopal Church” you’ll know that he’s trying to deceive you.

It’s important that we note these kinds of examples for the crass deceit that they are—and think accordingly.

RE: “Perhaps a good question to you would be: which account of the resurrection do you believe? which account of the Ascension do you believe?  Do you believe that the resurrected body of Jesus was fully enfleshed? or was it a spiritual body—or did it change according to circumstance?  Better be careful, one slip and you are no longer a follower of Jesus Christ.

Actually I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and have lived that and taught it for over 40 years. I believe in the Creedal affirmation of the Virgin Birth. I have written about it, taught it and it has been an important part of my prayer life and living for over 40 years.”

Oh dear.

I see that it’s time to re-post Tom Woodward in his own words again, for all to see.

I know you have your self-referenced reputation as the sole fount of truth to protect, but you all have been consistently wrong in the matter of Fr.
Barrios. He is a well-respected full professor at a prestigious law school and is, in addition, well respected by his bishop and diocese.

OMG! Mr. Woodward you have got to be kidding me!

Mr. Clinton was the President of the USA and was well respected by many (albeit in his partyline)has sold countless books and has made countless speaking engagements and is revered by thousands…but geesh in his own words…..“I did not have sex with that woman!”

Just because some people come from prestigious jobs or back grounds or have respect from some peers does not make them perfect nor without a hint of tainted stain that a bad decision or choice can leave on them when they choose incorrectly to believe in something, support something or someone or group that is highly suspect or questionable or downright evil!
Being in a prestigious position or coming from a prestigious place does not make one incapable of being wrong or corrupt! Give me a break! You must be living in Fantasy land or you have actually stumbled into Wonderland and the Mad Hatter had slipped you some tainted tea!

I believe he sees himself as a model Christian, though he has little difficulty in trashing others’ dedication to Jesus Christ.

Pot meet kettle! Mr. Woodward, you are very good at doing this very thing…in fact you do it alot! I’ve read your words of trashing others and mis-assigning comments to them all the time….I being a victim of your trashing!

Ah, it was a *documentary* a category well-known for it’s utter lack of bias and for never being used by any for anything but telling the truth….

Far more hard news sources were quoted than one story, Fr. Tom. But what are they to the review of a *documentary*?

#106, the movie scene Tom reminds me of is the ending of the Wizard of Oz, where the Wizard distributes symbols to the characters instead of the qualities they want. When I first saw that as a child I was disappointed and slightly disturbed by it. I suspect Tom was happy that the characters were enabled to believe whatever they wanted to about themselves, whether it was true or not. A testimonial of orthodoxy, a testimonial of being a law abiding, community building organization is as good as really possessing that trait.

Listen up, wingnuts!  The Latin Kings aren’t a violent street gang.  Heck, there are bunches of them who haven’t killed anyone.  Like the Frenchman who, when asked by his wife if he was faithful to her, enthused “Frequently!”

Amazing Tom, just amazing! The FBI tell us that the ‘community organizations’ that Barrios seeks to endorse,  protect and enlarge are gangs - as do any number of TEC clergy and laity who currently work in prisons and on the streets where these thugs do their dirty work. But the FBI is no to be believed - but Barrios is. Oh well….. this is just what we have come to expect from the revisionists in our midst who hate it when the light of day is shown on their dark deeds.

# 87

Normally, when the values and objectives of a group change, they separate, and change their names.

Like Bishops Duncan and Iker did with their organizations when they left TEC?

It’s off topic, I know, forgive me, but really…

#117 sisterinChrist, so you admit at last that the values and objectives of TEC have changed from the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints!  Absolutely on-topic with the most important topic of all, the Gospel and the person of the LORD God the Son, Jesus Christ!  So by your own logic, the TEC revisionists should have separated and changed the name of their new church and their new religion, since +Iker, +Duncan, +Scofield, and +Ackerman held fast to the Gospel and the faith once delivered without changing it, so no need for them to change the name of “their” organizations!

Barrios teaches ethnic studies, which is another sham program imposed on colleges and universities, to promote far leftist propaganda. It’s all about using ritual defamation of America, and citizens, blaming them for the actions of those who include the ruling elites and merchants of the old world, and that includes the Spanish and Portuguese ancestors of those who live in Latin America, Spain, the Arab states, and Africa. It’s about heaping scorn, abuse and vitriol on innocent American citizens, so as to undermine their rights to speak out on behalf of those rights. Ritual defamation is what Hitler and the nazi’s did to the Jews, what Marxists and fascists did to their victims. Demean, and demonize them, so as to render them as less thans, who are to blame for everything, with the intent to censor them, and ultimately excuse their persecution, and all that entails.

Thank you, Milton, for your accurate, on-topic analysis of sisterinChrist’s rebuttal of my #87.  Bishops Duncan and Iker have indeed separated and differentiated themselves from TEC, not wishing to be confused with TEC.  Unlike the two chapters of Ñeta, there is no confusion about the values and objectives of the dioceses in question.  But, really, sisterinChrist, are you are being fair to TEC?  Surely, you did not mean to inadvertently imply a comparison between TEC and a violent prison gang?

Tom Woodward discusses the fact that there are two different Latin Kings - one is peaceful and does community service and one is violent and funds itself with drug money and prostitution.

Hamas also had two “wings” as did the IRA and many other terrorist groups.  They have a political wing that “works within the system” and provides “community service” and they have the militant wing - the one that does “wet work” (because blood is wet) - the one that is violent.  Usually, there is some form of “wall” between the two groups, but if you look close enough, you will find the leaders work with each other and talk with each other and plan strategy together.  The goal is confusion and legitimization.  The political wing works for confusion and to be seen as a legitimate servant of “the people.”  They use “soft power” to advance the agenda of the whole group.  The militant wing works as a type of “enforcer” that uses muscle to advance the agenda of the whole group.

Don’t be fooled by such an arrangement.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

Phil and others, your time will be better spent if you do some real research than by trotting out the misreporting by the Daily News. Here, again, are people who will know about Fr. Barrios’ actions and the extent to which he has been smeared:
Amnesty International, in their reports on the NYC Police Department and their actions against liberal groups and in their report on Code Blue.

Bishop Mark Sisk of the Diocese of New York: Fr. Barrios is one of his priest and he knows the details of Fr. Barrios’ street ministry and about the Baptisms.

Fr. Barrios’ own distinguished career at the John Jay School of Law and his public record of working against violence.

Independent observers of the gang situation in NYC. They will tell you the difference between the violent Lower Manhattan group and the peaceful group referenced in the NY Daily News article. They are, for the umpteenth time, different in membership and intent and reputation.

There are independent scholarly studies available for any of you who are really interested in this. One danger in reading them is that they support what I have been writing. If you are interested in them, I will supply them at my email address: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).

I am sure I am missing the point here: I don’t think most of you are really interested in the career of Fr. Luis Barrios or in the work of the chapter of NETA-Latin Kings in the northern NYC chapter. My point has been to speak to the reputation of a real hero of American Christianity: yours seems to have been to tear down, rip apart the subject of any rumor that doesn’t fit with your conception of an anti-TEC world.  The sad thing is that you are missing out on the inspiring career of Fr. Barrios.

In reviewing the material <a href=“http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=RLM&q;=”>here</a? over the last hour I did not find anything all that inspiring, unless, of course, leftist political activism, protests, and facing 2 months in federal prison is what one finds inspiring.

Now, can we get back on topic, or were we ever really on topic?

Sometimes href’s are flaky on this site.  I did not find Fr. Barrios’ leftist political activism, protests, and facing 2 months in federal prison particularly inspiring, but then again, I’m not like TBW.

Nor have I turned up anything on Amnesty’s site about the Latin Kings. Fr. Tom, since the discussion is here and you claim to have plenty of info to back up your claims - why don’t you simply post links?

Re #122:  “Fr. Barrios’ own distinguished career at the John Jay School of Law . . . .”

Correct me if I am wrong, but from checking around on the Internet, it appears to be “John Jay College of Criminal Justice,” which is not a law school.

Correct me if I am wrong, but from checking around on the Internet, it appears to be “John Jay College of Criminal Justice,” which is not a law school.

  On checking the website for this college it is one of the city of ny university campuses. Checking the faculty page for Luis Barrios it appears his page has been withdrawn at this time.

#37 the snarkster,
“What a maroon”
Snarkster, I believe that phrase was originally uttered by Bugs Bunny. Please cite your sources.  I’d horse whip you if I had a horse. (Groucho Marx)

Amnesty International and Mark Sisk?

Now there are two sources I trust implicitly.

Or not.

Come on Tom - first of all, no one less than the FBI tell us the truth of who the folk Barrios is promoting: both groups are some of the most violent drug gangs in America today.

Secondly, I continue to hear from laity and clergy currently working in our prisons - they confirm that both of these groups are violent gangs who currently carry out acts of domestic terrorism against their fellow inmates and acts of intimidation and violence against prison guards.

Finally, Barrios, like the people he is trying to empower is a criminal - not a hero.

Athanasius, I guess we differ in this. I think it is a matter of Christian ethics to protest the training of terrorists on U.S. soil—that is what got Fr. Barrios arrested and convicted.  Having been arrested and then beaten brutally Rochester, NY policemen in a similar circumstance, I have an affinity for Fr. Barrios that folks here don’t have.  I believe that State sponsored terrorism and torture is immoral—but we seem to differ about that. You may want to alter your screen name if this kind of protest offends your sense of Jesus Christ.

Second, I did not write that Amnesty International did a piece on NETA or the Latin Kings. The pieces I cited have to do with the NYC Police and Code Blue.

Don+, as I have cited numerous times, while elements in these two groups have a violent history, the group cited in the Daily News article does not.  Fr. Barrios is a criminal like MLK, Jr. and Dan Berrigan are criminals. I think it is important to distinguish between civil religion, which treats as sinful protests against one’s government no matter how egregious the matter, and traditional Christianity which calls for protest against such things as the School for the Americas. That, it seems to me, is an important part of the faith once delivered to the saints - but we seem to value that differently.

My point has been to speak to the reputation of a real hero of American Christianity

TBWSantaFe:  Since your effort to speak to the reputation of Brad was such a raging success, I’m quite confident that if you speak to the reputation of Matt you will achieve similar or perhaps even greater results.

125, I don’t expect Tom Woodard to post links. 
Facts are troublesome things, they acknowledge no master.

I believe that State sponsored terrorism and torture is immoral—but we seem to differ about that.

Bully!  When are you and Fr Barrious going to book a flight to Iran to carry on your couragous work against state sponsered terror?

, and traditional Christianity which calls for protest against such things as the School for the Americas.

I’m not quite sure what about traditional Christianty requires one to protest against teaching military tatics, leadership and human right to allied militaries.

Tom+

“History” - no, actually current events. The FBI data is from last month on BOTH of the groups Barrios has recruited to - no confusion, no gray areas, no wiggle room - as is the information from those who have to deal with these criminals every day in our prisons - so please quit trying to obfuscate and cover-up for this man. Protest all you wish, he is part of the reason TEC is in its downward death spiral as it looses almost 1000 members every week.

Tom, I hope that you will join me in a prayer of thanksgiving that in this country we have the freedom to stage peaceful protests against the government, and even to choose to get arrested by trespassing on restricted-access government property. 

My research on Amazon has turned up two of Fr. Barrios’s books:
The Almighty Latin King and Queen Nation: Street Politics and the Transformation of a New York City Gang by David C. Brotherton and Luis Barrios (Paperback - Feb 11, 2004)
Gangs and Society by Louis Kontos, David C. Brotherton, and Luis Barrios (Paperback - Jun 15, 2003)

These books agree with what Tom has been saying, and depict a worldview that many of us here cannot embrace. By using Amazon’s online reader, I have been able to get a glimpse inside these books.  The methodology employed in the first book emanates from a “neo-Marxian tradition”, and “posconstructionalist, postmodernist discourses.”  In the second book, Fr. Barrios has a chapter on the “spirituality” of gangs explored from the perspective of liberation theology.  There are various authors cited and represented in these two books who share Fr. Barrios’s, and perhaps, Fr. Woodword’s worldview. 

There are also numerous authors/studies, prison chaplains, news accounts [not the Daily News] and law enforcement agencies [outside of the NYPD] that demonstrate the vicious, criminal activity of the Latin Kings and Ñeta.

The alleged human/civil rights violations of the NYPD that may have merited the attention of Amnesty International, do not negate the documented, on-going crimes of the Latin Kings and Ñeta.  Commenters here have provided links to criminal gang activity by these two groups in Wisconsin, Florida, North Carolina, and Chicago.  The FBI has also gathered evidence and intelligence on these gangs independent of the NYPD. 

It still boggles the mind that the “peaceful, community service” chapters of the Latin Kings and the Ñetas would persist in being linked in name and tradition to their counterparts in the nefarious chapters in NYC and elsewhere.  Sorry, Tom, but that is hard to swallow.

Tom has failed to answer direct questions regarding Fr. Barrios’s blessing-in of children into the Latin Kings.  So we remain ignorant and confused about this.

Clearly, Fr. Barrios has the courage of his convictions.  Perhaps, that is enough to qualify him as a real hero of American Christianity If so, this blog is full of real heros of American Christianity.

Fr. Barrios is a criminal like MLK, Jr.

You go way too far with this, Fr. Tom. Some of us actually remember Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and the dignified, hard-working, earnest and peace-minded people he led to freedom. Comparing them to street thugs dealing drugs, terrorizing their neighbors and committing acts of violence while seeking their own gain is more than the outside of enough!

Some of us remember when the Black Panthers (another criminal gang) were feted in New York society. It’s the same general idea.

For some reason, thugs, truncheons and jack boots have a certain appeal to a certain sort of sensitive and caring personality. It’s the same sort of person who adopts pit bulls and then is startled when the ‘poor wee animal’ shreds a neighbour’s child.

Note to Loyal Episcopalian Hierarchs. My God will beat up your god.

Tom, I hope that you will join me in a prayer of thanksgiving that in this country we have the freedom to stage peaceful protests against the government, and even to choose to get arrested by trespassing on restricted-access government property.

Well, I’m certainly thankful that we live in a country where who trespass on government property get arrested, as it makes my job a lot easier, and Tom and company should be thankful, because it makes a much more impressive “war story” then “We stood around with signs and no one really cared.”

#138 mousetalker,
“For some reason, thugs, truncheons and jack boots have a certain appeal to a certain sort of sensitive and caring personality.”  Your statement is insightful and reminds me of Norman Mailer’s friendship with and advocacy for Jack Abbott the criminal who wrote “From the Belly of the Beast”. Shortly after Abbott was released from prison with Mailer’s help, he murdered a waiter.

For some reason, thugs, truncheons and jack boots have a certain appeal to a certain sort of sensitive and caring personality

Well, as long as they are Fighting The Man, they are are A-OK.

NETA started as a prison gang. Sorry, but I don’t buy the premise that there are two separate factions, one being “positive”. The claim of community service is a sham, it’s an established practice by organized criminal groups, especially those that are based on the “strong man” concept.. that they really are all about “serving” the community. It’s an attempt to hide behind a Robin Hood analogy. The main reason for the claims of community outreach, are fronts for the effort to continually recruit young people into the gangs. To keep those young people divided from the wider, American community, to keep them from continuing in education, pursuing higher education, and any future other than being another body for this criminal enterprise to profit from.

Liberation theology is not in aid of liberation, it’s about the imposition of slavery. It hijacks religion as a cover for what is Marxist indoctrination and subjugation.

The Diocese of NY has recruited and harbored criminals and degenerate people into its clerical and episcopal ranks for decades.  Remember the Bishop who had multiple extra marital homosexual affairs while his wife finally died alone after divorcing him?  Quite a tradition to uphold, in the DIocese of NY.  Little wonder they think criminality is cultural education:  it is, depending on your perspective.

Let’s let Doctor Professor Barrios, learned American episcopalian, speak for himself, from the HoBD listserve.  I think it is interesting in a bad way, but cannot say that I am surprised. 

On Feb 21 8:33am Luis Barrios wrote:

Dear Fr. Donald Perschall, good morning and blessings.

I read the email that you sent to Tom with a lot of information that is not accurate. Most of this information is describe in what I teach here at
John Jay College: Cultural Criminology. What is cultural criminology? Is a theoretical, methodological and interventionist approach to the study of crime and deviance that places criminality and its control in the context of culture; that is, it views crime and the agencies and institutions of crime control as cultural products -  as creative constructs.  As such they must be read in terms of the meanings they carry.  Furthermore, cultural criminology seeks to highlight the interaction between two key elements: the relationship between cultural constructions upwards and cultural constructions downwards. Its focus is always upon the continuous generation of meaning around interaction; rules created, rules broken, a constant interplay of moral entrepreneurship, political innovation and transgression. In summary, crime is not about violating a law; it is About something else: e.g. because you are black, Latino, gay, immigrant, woman, Young, etc. With cultural criminology I explain why here in the USA
poor people go to prison and rich people get richer. With cultural criminology and help my students to understand why the most notorious gang in New York City -New York Police Department- is invisible in the media
reports (by the way you can read the two Amnesty International reports on NYPD and the Blue Code). And also, with cultural criminology I explain the disproportion of blacks and Latinos people in prison.

Let me add to this that the information that came out last year in the Daily News regarding the baptism of children to become members of the Latin King was not correct. It was part of a media campaign to do what
some time they like to do: character assassination. You can check this information with Bishop Mark S. Sisk, Diocesan Bishop Diocese of New York.

As well, your history about the Asociación Ñeta is no precise. The information about La Madrina is correct. What is missing from your analysis is that at that moment we have two Asociación Ñeta: In one La Madrina was the leader and this was a drug organization with headquarters in the Lower East Side in New York City. The other was lead by Green Eyes, Blondie and Jaime in Bushwick, Brooklyn, New York City. This was and is a social movement lead by young people in New York City and other places. By the way, is started as a social movement in the prison system in Puerto Rico in 1980 and my father together with Carlos La Sombra was one of the founders. The colonial situation that we are living with the USA, is the one that force us Puerto Ricans to come to the USA. This is how they also got here.

The sources that you tell Tom to read are wed pages prepare by law enforcement agents (e.g. gang intelligence units) and they are extremely bias. Is only one side of the coin. You also need to read something more serious, base on ethnographic critical research. This is what I do here at John Jay College for the last 15 years.

Let me close with this statement. When is time to understand street or prison organization I believe that they are not saints, however, they are not the devils. If very important that you understand the reasons behind
the criminalization and demonization of people. More specific with questions like: what they emerge?, how much crime is gang related? Why young people affiliate to this groups?

My invitation to you is also that you study the academic research. My ministry is a street ministry. With those that our society manage to exclude and oppress. This is the reason why our parish opens the doors to
these young people. If you want to be expose to them and learn not about them, but from them please let me know. I can bring you to one of the meeting and also give you a tour in our communities here in New York City.
Again, learning from them, not about them.

OK Fr. Pershall, I hope this is the beginning of a good relationship and we become good friends.

In peace with justice your brother and friend,

luis

Luis Barrios, Ph.D., BCFE
Chair & Professor
Department of Latin American & Latina/o Studies Joh Jay College of
Criminal Justice-City University of New York
445 West 59 Street, Room 4115-N
New York, New York 10019

Who’d have thought it possible within TEC? Well educated, well paid, tenured upper middle class professors playing around with radical leftist politics.

What a waste of his abilities. It would at least be humorous, to see him turn his Foucaultian nihilism on the religious “gang” that’s trying to sue every opponent into the dust.

Here we go again. It is all the Ugly American’s fault. We deserved 9-11. Over taxed Americans deserve to have their throats slit, and their children gunned down by foreign “visitors”.  With his logic, the Muslim terrorists should put him on speed dial.