[Open Thread For Contact Information] What Can Episcopal Peons Do About The Buddhist Bishop?

I’s suggest that whatever they do will be a waste of breath, postage, or pixels.

[1] A Senior Priest

Turning light upon the darkness is never a wasted effort.  Even if it fails to produce change, it still exposes to the light the evil that hides in the darkness.  They will know they are guilty, and so find themselves without excuse.

carl

Hey #1, you have to stand and fight…
“Evil florishes when good men do nothing”...

ASP: I disagree with you.  Sarah is right.  If this gets coverage it may or may not prevent the confirmation of this election.  It will help get the word out to the general public about how wacky TEO has become.

Sarah, thanks for this excellent practical article.
Before I saw this, I posted two comments at T19 which further support what you have written.

http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/20659/#339515

http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/20659/#339519

In response to A Senior Priest, and others who say “why bother” please consider this, which I also posted at T19:

Above all, I urge folks to pray and ask the Lord what He would have you do.  This may be all too typical news from TEC these days, but it doesn’t mean we have to sit back in apathy and watch it happen, nor enjoy the voyeuristic spectacle as just more of TEC’s chaotic “entertainment.”

I’ll be signing off for the rest of the day… it’s Ash Wed., and I have Lenten commitments, and want to focus any further blogging today on devotional stuff

A blessed Lent to all.  May the Lord show us how to do what will please Him in this matter and in all matters.

For the Dio of Upper South Carolina the following web page has the members of the Diocesan Executive Council listed for those who wish to e-mail them, please include your real name, town, parish etc. 

http://www.edusc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=74&Itemid=42

Karen B., you might be in a position to answer this clearly:  In what specific ways does Buddhism contradict Christianity? I’d like to find a discussion more on that point than on this troublesome bishop-elect’s personal beliefs.  Is this an issue larger than just his personal beliefs (as in one cannot be both Muslim and Christian)?  I know so little about Buddhism other than if you find Buddha, kill him (or some variation of that thought).  Anyone else is free to chime in as well.  Thanks.

[comment deleted—off topic; please don’t comment off-topic again]

This via BabyBlue is very eye-opening.

This thing seems to go deeper than a new-age goofball in a tiny diocese.

It is also interesting to see the power of “the blogs”.

DoW

South Dakota Standing Cmte., w/ email links:
http://www.diocesesd.org/WHO_WE_ARE/DIRECTORY/COMMISSIONS/standing_committee.htm

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke

This is the beginning of a trend. Look at the bishops “appointed” by the PB for the faux dioceses.

I have been wondering how standing committees and bishops would respond in the consent process.  When Bp Robinson was elected, most of the bishops who voted to consent at GC ‘03 said something along the line that NH had conducted a fair election and that their consent was an affirmation that the nomination and election had been carried out fairly and according to the canons.  They were just weasel-wording their way out of their responsibility to affirm that an elected candidate is seen by the larger Church as a fit holder of the office of bishop - but that is the reason that many gave for approving Robinson: “It was a fair election, so let the people of NH have the bishop they want.”

But if they want to use this same reason to approve Fr Forrester, can they really do so?  The process seems quite flawed according to the canons.  They cannot just say, “The process was fair, so let the Yoopers have the bishop they want.”  Or maybe they will, even though it is not true.  On the other hand, a bishop or standing committee who has no theological qualms about Forrester, but who also knows that a Buddhist bishop would be “beyond the pale” for many in their diocese could use the excuse of a flawed process in order not to consent to the election.

I suspect that this situation is going to be one more example that we are no longer under the rule of law, but instead are governed by personal whim.

A buddhist/Episcopal priest about to be consecrated a bishop? This is the very definition of heterodox, isn’t it?

Buddhist Episcopal Bishop—-Sodomite Episcopal Bishop—Atheist Episcopal Bishop—-yawn,  dog bites man, nothing here to see.
I would add: don’t give a dime to TEO.

why bother with resisting one more? Why not allow them to “live into” their theology in peace.

Because if you are still IN TEC, it is still “your” church.  If you can’t fight for what is right in “your” church, you’d best rethink that!

Diocese of Minnesota Standing Committee info

Because I think there is something in this case that is crucial, I’m signing on in response to the action-point above:

2)Contact your diocesan Standing Committee via email or letter with some well-reasoned arguments as to why it isn’t a good idea to approve a Buddhist as an Episcopal bishop.

I am going to put together a one page memo for our Standing Committee and Bishop (Upper SC) that seeks to zero in on the central problem here.

I hope others elsewhere will do likewise and sign in here.

Jim Workman
Rector, St. Michael’s Episcopal Church (TEC)
Easley, SC

#8, I’m no expert on Buddhism, but perhaps I can pull together some resources to answer your question tomorrow or Friday.  I’m about to sign off for the night (it’s 7:30 pm in my time zone as I write this)
Over at T19 earlier today, John Wilkins asked me what I found offensive about the Buddhist Affirmations.  Here’s how I answered:

John Wilkins, Just quickly catching up on the comments here before calling it a night (it’s 7:30 p.m. in my time zone and I need to head home, where I have no internet here in Africa) I didn’t even remember that the statement said anything about SS marriage.  I didn’t re-read it word for word when I posted it earlier this morning.

What I found “offensive” was the portions of the statement that say
“all persons are the living Christ”
“everything, without exception, is the living presence, or incarnation, of God”
etc.

It totally denies the uniqueness of Christ, the divinity of Christ.  We all become equal to God.

In fact, back in Oct 2007, I did a little “thought-experiment” about this over at Stand Firm.

Here’s my comment from back then:

  You know, all anyone needed to do to utterly destroy this idiocy was a simple thought exercise.  A search and replace.  And yes, I’m about to break Godwin’s law here.  But there is exceptional cause:

  Here are the 4 direct quotes from the article:
  —All persons are the living Christ
  —Each and every human being, ... is ... an anointed one – Christ.
  —Everyone is the sacred word of God
  —Everything, without exception, is the living presence, or incarnation, of God

  Let’s try this:
  —[Child molesters] are the living Christ
  —[Charles Manson], ... is ... an anointed one – Christ.
  —[Adolph Hitler] is the sacred word of God
  —[Rocks, ear wax, toenail clippings, bird droppings…] is the living presence, or incarnation, of God

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Why don’t we just make everyone who trips and falls through the door a bishop? Here’s an oldie but a goodie.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 7:13-15

For the past decade we’ve had a TEC bishop (Irish - Utah) who was never baptised in a Christian church so what’s novel about a Buddhist bishop?  Folks this is one long string of quasi-Christian leaders running the TEC going back to bishop Pike in the 1960s.

If you still need a reason to try and fight this I will ask you once again to do it for my sake and the sake of other folk in this diocese, many of them elderly and bewildered by all the double talk that has been occurring while Kevin Forrester and Co push this all through.  A couple of posts back I begged folks to contact their bishops and SCs to request no consent to this.  Regardless of the important issue of Buddhist Bishop or no, this was a process designed by KTF to ensure that KTF became a bishop so his flawed theology could contiue to be put forth.  It was carefully crafted so that only the dedicated few would “volunteer” to be on the “discernment team.”  The process was stretched out so that the nomination/convention would occur JUST BEFORE the deadline to bring this to General Convention.  No applications for the position were accepted, select individuals in the greater church gave the team names to consider - the final choice of names was never revealed to the diocese at large - only numbers - we have 36 names, we have it down to 10 names…  The final sad joke is what they are calling “the election.”  Representatives from the various congregations were selected (read those same volunteers) to give a thumbs up affirmation of the entire team which includes lay volunteers (friends and family) or a thumbs down.  The whole time being reminded that if they vote thumbs down “we’d have to start over from scratch” and “who knows what kind of interim bishop might be IMPOSED on us.”  Some election - a bit Soviet don’t you think?  In fact this whole thing was very Soviet from start to finish.  So PLEASE for my sake and the sake of others - make a statement to somebody.  Follow the link in #10 - I read it and it is exactly correct and on the mark.

KTHV Channel 11, the CBS affiliate in Little Rock, has picked up the story.

Here’s some further thoughts:  At stewardship time we are often reminded that we give of our time, treasure, and talent to the church.
What would be your reaction if those who were chosen to participate in this “discernment process” were the ones who pledged the most money?  Wouldn’t you think that was an unfair, skewed, downright un-American way to do it?  Let the rich buy in to choosing the next bishop.

OK, what if those participating were restricted based on their talents alone.  Only seminary trained individuals have the knowledge and talent to choose the next bishop…sounds downright Roman doesn’t it?  Once again, I don’t think you would support such a “discernment process” that was not democratic.

Yet this was a process designd very cleverly to restrict those who ultimatey chose the next bishop-elect by vast amounts of “time” - How clever to threaten the diocese that those who will participate in the discernment team must commit to 2 8+ hour Saturday meetings a month - where most of the attendees would have to drive over an hour (some as far away as 3 hours) one way?  As I suggested this ensured that the team members were self appointed and were made up of Kevin Forrester “groupies.”  Had we known from the beginning of his plan to scratch open applications and dispense with a REAL election, some of us might have bit the bullet and pushed to be part of this team, but that’s part of the evil genius of this whole “Discernment Process” that sounds so lovely and democratic.  The thing was rigged from the beginning.  This is a diocese of less than 600 members, a goodly portion 70+, spread out over 400 miles from east to west but less than 25 congregations.  The “big church” is Kevin Forrester’s church with ASA hovering maybe around 100.  I ask you again to bring as much information to your bishop and SC as possible.  The progaganda from the Standing Committee up here is fierce and is desperate to sell this as the will of the people and a wonderful knew thing.  I’m sure Fr Forrester plans to write a book about it and further his own cause. He has regularly brought folks from around the communion to see what a model for the future this Mutual Ministry is.  (if only those folks knew the real story when they visited.)  His career is built on selling Mutual Ministry to the larger church.  Getting to be “Bishop” will be a wonderful thing to add to his resume.

You people have overwhelmed the website of the Diocese of N. Mich. It won’t open.

The parish Forrester is rector of reported around 70 in average attendance in ‘07—down from around 100 the year before. Giving was also down from around 139,000 to around 121,000. How do they support a priest?

And as was so wonderfully stated in the BabyBlue link above in #10, this will be presented to the progressive bishops as a protest solely about his Buddhist ordination.  You need to get the word out that this is equally about a manipulative skewed process that if it meets the canons it will have done so by some very careful legal maneuvering on the part of the lawyer “groupies” in Kevin Forrester’s cadre of “yes men.”

Rsts!!  I’m in the Southern Cone and therefore our Standing Committee can’t do anything about this.

What Can Episcopal Peons Do About The Buddhist Bishop?

Oh, about as much as we did about Pike, Righter, Spong, Gene Robinson, Beisner (serial monogamist of Northern California), et al. Face it, the only thing would keep this Buddhapalian from getting his consents would be if it was discovered that he was a closet orthodox conservative reasserter.

  But, carry on anyway. Eventually, TECusaCorp’s DEATH OF A THOUSAND CUTS program will reach the threshold of lethality and another cut like this one will only hasten the day.

the snarkster™

Hello.  I have read the recent posts about the Diocese of Northern Michigan with interest.  I have attended St. Paul’s church in Marquette, MI, for about 8 years now and, although I am currently on leave from the congregation, I am a member of the Ministry Support Team, ordained/commissioned as a Deacon almost two years ago.  I wince at the terms that seek to divide us into two camps - some of my personal beliefs are clearly revisionist, however, I also have a healthy respect for tradition and liturgy.  I happen to be gay.  I would like to answer any questions you folks may have about the process that lead to Kevin Thew Forrester’s selection as Bishop-elect to the new concept of an Episcopal Ministry Support Team.  I will try to remain objective and present what I know as factually as possible.  So, please, fire away!  I am moved to do this because a comment was made elsewhere belittling your “e-mail campaign” stating that the process should be allowed to play out.  IMHO contacting your bishop’s and/or Standing Committees with your questions or concerns before they make their decisions to grant consent IS part of the process.  Does that make sense?  Peace to you all.

Folk, I understand why the naysayers will say nay. It just doesn’t seem worth it to keep fighting this battle, incrementally, day after day after day, year after year, only to see things keep getting worse.

Two points I’ll make:

1. Don’t make the mistake of post hoc ergo propter hoc: Just because the ‘progressive’ agenda seems to accelerate after efforts like this, doesn’t mean that efforts like this cause that acceleration.

2. If you play chess, you know that when you’re matched against an opponent with comparable skills, the game is usually one of attrition. The game can last a long time, and many pieces are lost on each side before one opponent emerges the winner. While there are fewer pieces now than there were years ago, there are nonetheless several pieces still on the board. Just yesterday I battled back from what looked like a sure loss against a higher-ranked opponent. I was just about to resign when I thought, “OK, just a couple of more moves to see how difficult I can make it for him.” I made things very difficult indeed. After a while, the tide started to turn.

I ended up winning, and it was because a) I was prepared to lose, b) I was playing to win, and c) I knew that if I was going to win, it would be a long, difficult game, because I was matched against a higher-ranked player who had a lot more pieces on the board. But I played smart, and I played patiently, knowing that there would be more pieces lost before it was all over.

If you don’t think the effort we’re discussing on this thread is worthwhile, I understand why you feel that way. However, I’d ask you to keep your comments to yourself, and leave the thread open for others who want to talk about what to do and how to do it.

renzinthewoods,

Yes, it does make sense, and I think all of us here agree that “contacting your bishop’s and/or Standing Committees with your questions or concerns before they make their decisions to grant consent IS part of the process.” Well said.

I need to be candid with you and our readers, though.

To you, I’d say not to expect too many questions about process other than those posted purely out of curiosity. For most people here, I suspect that the process - suspect as it is - is beside the point. The core problem is Forrester’s Buddhism; the way he emerged from a committee on which he served as the only candidate for bishop is a problem, but is a distant second.

To SF readers, I’d request that everyone treat renzinthewoods with the respect due a Worthy Opponent who has knowingly entered perhaps the most challenging commentary zones for gay revisionist Episcopalians.

That said, carry on…

#32, Do you support the process that lead to the election of the new bishop? Do you support the choice of bishop?

I left the Episcopal Church a week ago.  I am certain I made the right decision.  My best wishes to those who choose to remain.

I said I would prefer to remain objective.  I have my concerns about both the process and the man.  I personally would have liked to see a candidate from outside the diocese join our ranks.  We currently have four seminary trained missioners in the diocese:  Kevin Thew Forrester, Rayford Ray, Charlie Piper, and Manuel Padilla.  Kevin’s wife is an ordained Episcopal priest as well but does not hold a “priestly” position in the diocese.  She is, however, the editor of Hiawathaland.  We have relied on the assistance of retired Bishop Tom Ray in the 20 months since Jim Kelsey’s death.  That is the entire lot of seminary trained priests currently available to us.

the most challenging commentary zones for gay revisionist Episcopalians.  Perhaps some of you believe it is impossible to be “openly gay” and “ordained” and not be a revisionist…remember I am one of the non-seminary trained minions here, I know from what I’ve read here that I hold some reviionist beliefs, but, as I said, I also have a high regard for tradition.  I would also say that I believe theology is very personal, that which we carry with us, liturgy is what we do together as a group, as a church.  So as I struggle with my personal theology, knowing some of it to be “revisionist,” I believe very strongly in a sense of liturgical tradition.  My understanding as an Episcopalian, who was raised Roman Catholic, is that the church is to follow the middle way.  Pushing an agenda that is too far to the left or right throws the middle way off course and disturbs the vast body of folk in that middle.
Greg, first point of clarification…
<ithe way he emerged from a committee on which he served as the only candidate for bishop is a problem</i>
I’m not trying to split hairs, the essence of what you say is true, I just want people to truly grasp the process that I witnessed.  KTF was very much part of the “design team” of this unfortunately open ended process, he participated in the first couple of meetings as the discernment group got started but then removed himself from direct participation.  Also, there were apparently other candidates.  In the final stretch the team apparently had about 36 or so names that they shrunk down to a final few and in the end selected Kevin.  I do not believe, however, that any of the other candidates’ names were ever revealed, though I would imagine that the other seminary trained priests in the diocese were also in consideration.  Remember, Greg,in spirit what you said is not incorrect, I just wanted to clarify it a bit.

Oh, and perhaps I can shed some light on the Buddhist issue, if you have questions on that as well.  Though I must admit, until it was brought forward in the blogosphere I really was unaware that he had received a lay ordination in Buddhism.  I was aware that Buddhist philosophy or beliefs played an important role in his philosophy.  Some of the comments I have read here at SFIF have shed some light for me on how some of what he believes theologically may have been shaped by his buddhism.

Diocese of the Rio Grande standing committee, which it itself looking for a bishop (and no, not everyone here is in cahoots with TBW):

http://www.dioceserg.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58

I would correct Greg above.  Personally, I really don’t care that much about the Buddhist thing, per se.  The real question I would pose, (to renzinthewoods or anyone else) is how a man in open violation of the canons on communion and liturgy could be considered at all?  He has openly denied the Nicene Creed and is therefore not a catholic Christian and it is, therefore, impossible for him to be a bishop.  The charge to the discernment team was to choose a bishop for the whole church.
The other question, specifically for renz, is by what logic did they redefine the entire role of bishop and appoint (let’s not even pretend this part was an election) 12 people to be the “Episcopal Ministry”?  Again, there is no canonical support for this in either the canons of TEC or the canons of the diocese.
And on what date were the canons amended to allow this rather farcical “discernment” to go forward in the manner which it did?  The canons as presently available to us in the pews allow no such process.

#36- Scott- was that the diocese of N. Michigan you left or TEC in general?  And I do pray in either case that you did not leave the Church, but only TEC.

tjmcmahon, regarding liturgy, my understanding of what has transpired (at least until I went on leave last fall)is this. KTF puts together his draft of the liturgy and/or feast day (i.e., epiphany, holy week, easter, pentecost, etc.)  This draft was brought to a meeting of the “presiders” which included (when attending)the members of the ministry support team who were commissioned as presbyters (2), deacons (3), and preachers - one of the preachers is knowledgeable of church music and also brought that knowledge to the meetings.  I did not always attend these meetings as I work at a day job and they were often scheduled during the day, but essentially the liturgy was approved in most cases as KTF had written it.  Beginning perhaps with Lent last year (?) the Nicene creed was replaced with an affirmation statement from the New Zealand Prayer Book.  There was quite some discussion of this amongst the members of the congregation and by September the Nicene Creed was being used again.  My sense as I remember was that he objected to the creed - there is a man in the congregation who is Muslim, he does not have a faith community to be a part of here in upper Michigan so he felt welcomed to join us and his wife is Christian.  At times he has considered formally converting, I believe.  In any case, it was suggested by KTF that we could’t welcome people like this Muslim man if we recited the creed.  As I have stated, enough folks in the congregation spoke up that the creed was put back into the liturgy last fall.  As for communion, St. Paul’s practices open communion, my understanding is that we practiced open communion long before KTF came along and that Jim Kelsey our late Bishop supported the concept of open communion - yes, in violation of church canons.  Yes, I believe KTF believes firmly in open commmunion, he prefers to refer to it as “the table” not “the altar.”
By what logic did they decide on the Ministry Support Team model?  I’m not sure logic has applied much here.  For over 20 years the congregations in ths diocese have been shifting to a Mutual Ministry model.  There are “theological” arguments for this, but personally I think economics is a big factor—especially when you consider that of the “richest” two congregations, St. Paul’ finally switched over about two years ago, and Trinity in Houghton has yet to do so.  KTF is a big supporter of this - remember he was hired by the diocese to be a Diocesan Ministry Developer.  He is a primary author of the Life Cycles program that is used to prepare individuals for their roles on the minis

Renz (or RenZ ?), I am all too aware of the history, I am looking for a canonical justification- since you were hoping to keep this a procedural discussion.  The formation of the Episcopal Ministry Support Team has no canonical authorization.  I am just trying to figure out how they thought they could do that without changing the canons first.

Let me say (as I have said here several times in the past) I have a respect for the volunteer clergy of this diocese, at least on the level of their being caring people who are committed to trying to keep their churches open under very trying circumstances.  These folks are doing their best to be good ministers, but have little in the way of education, and in this area, virtually no support from the diocese.  Quite the opposite, really.
Several Anglican seminaries world-wide offer distance education courses leading to seminary degrees.  It really is a pity that he chose to go his own route in developing courses that have led to such a misunderstanding of basic theology within the diocese.  Hopefully, Renz, your sermons are MUCH better than the ones I hear around here.

Carl said:  Turning light upon the darkness is never a wasted effort.
As a physicist, let me assure you that this is not strictly true.  Turning light upon a black hole will certainly result in extinction of the light.

CTowles said:  All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. —Edmund Burke
This does seem strictly true, but what should they do?  My suggestion: run for your lives, you are dealing with Evil here that you and I do not comprehend. —just my personal comment, please consider it carefully.

[44] CanaAnglican

Turning light upon a black hole will certainly result in extinction of the light.

Ah, but it depends upon the source of your light. Not all sources are created equal.

In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.  The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:4-5

This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.  For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. John 3:19-20

Where is the black hole so strong that it can overwhelm this Light?

carl

(I hope that all modern scholars would accept my profound apology for referring to the Gospel of John as if it had either theological or historical credibility.  Please trust that your critique has been duly noted, and given all the attention it deserves.)

I agree that the effort would not be a waste of time even though he will definitely be confirmed.  Letters and calls can be accomplished without wasting a lot of resources needed elsewhere. The standing committees shouldn’t be able to say “I didn’t know” or “You can’t trust what is spread on the internet.” 

I was dismayed during the Righter presentment that so many conservative Episcopalians seemed to think that there was a chance of conviction and that the upcoming trial itself was used by some to support a “wait and see” attitude.  However, I don’t see a lot of naive people these days around here. As has been said above, the real value of the Righter presentment, and opposing this consecration, is that it brings further clarity as to the state of the church. Good hunting for you insiders.

Another page in the fact is stranger than fiction book for the “church of whats happening now” You can’t possibly make this stuff up-for people would never believe you. A buddhist Bishop-priceless!

Mississippi—
John Anderson, Jr. - none
John Carrier II - jxc2[at]comcast[dot]net
Bill Livingston - rector_bill[at]bellsouth[dot]net
Ed McCants - edcoleI[at]comcast[dot]net
Danny Ray Meadors - drmeadors[at]cableone[dot]net
Edward O’Connor - eandoc1[at]aol[dot]com
Chan Osborn de Anaya - revchan_cec[at]bellsouth[dot]net
Kyle Seage - kseage[at]comcast[dot]net

Here is a link to the Diocese of Georgia Standing Committee mail and email addresses and phone numbers.

Ways that Buddhism is incompatible with Christianity:

1. It not only doesn’t acknowledge the divinity of Christ, it does not recognize divinity at all as a serious category. “Wordly” gods who are born, live and eventually die (even though their time-frame is measured in eons) are the only kind of gods acknowledged, and they are rightly considered inferior and not of merit. Source: “Questions of King Milinda.” Therefore there can be no purpose to life or living, there is no teleology of developing the fullness God has planted in us. However, in the Third Turning school, it is said you do have inherently some Buddha-qualities that are god-like which are revealed when your defilements of mind are purged.
2. Ditto for the soul or souls (I won’t go into the Classic soul/spirit continuum questions here) for that teaching I have the same source (Milinda) and many, many others. You are held to be a mere mental continuum that may be split into a variety of incarnations if circumstances are correct for that. In Buddhism, you don’t “reincarnate” exactly (as you don’t have a soul there’s nothing to “re” anything). Your mind-stream finds itself helplessly in another body. The personality in the subsequent body is not you, in fact you are not the same personality from instant to instant. Coherence as a being is what Buddhism says you are empty of.
3. The point of Buddhism is the attainment of enlightenment, an ontological category that is personal, though it can only be achieved through the accomplishment of heroic virtue and with the intention to help others. Only a very, very few are qualified to practice Buddhism seriously enough to accomplish this end, even though it is the stated goal of all Buddhists, whether of the Theravadin (Southern) or Northern Mahayana traditions. Many tens of thousands of years (or more) and possibly uncountable lifetimes are required to accomplish this goal. You have to be a hero. In Christianity, all who willingly accept the lordship of Jesus may be saved. Even if you’re not a heroic type.
4. In Buddhism, suffering is meaningless, except insofar as it it exhausts bad karma. The principle aim of Buddhism is to end pointless suffering. Contrast that with the refiner’s fire we willingly submit to. There is meaning in everything that happens not only to us, but to everything in Creation.
5. To properly be a Buddhist (as opposed to someone who pretends to be one), you must have three supreme refuges, forsaking all others: Buddha, Sangha, Dharma. This explicitly excludes Christ. God. The Bible, His Church, etc. Now, there are traditions that are vague on that point, but of late, for instance, Tibetan Buddhist teachers have been very, very clear about this.

Why bother objecting?

Why bother objecting?

Thanks for the vote of confidence there, padre.

...they need to be put on notice that people in their diocese are watching this decision

Sarah, I think some of us have given up on the “inside strategy.”  Trying to block the approval of Forrestor is like fixing the walls of a sand castle that the rising tide has undermined.  I know that seems rather heartless toward those faithful that are stuck in Northern Michigan, but they will need to leave TEO eventually anyway.

KTHV Channel 11, the CBS affiliate in Little Rock, has picked up the story.

This report made my blood run cold.  Everytime a story like this is printed, the outrageous behaviour that it reports gets “normalized.”  It may shock a few people, but it will never shock again, and when next month the parish priest preaches a sermon on gaining nirvanah, that will no longer seem as shocking, either.  Maybe it is better not to pump up the media on this one.

There comes a time when God “gives them up” (e.g. Romans 1:26) and perhaps that time has come for the Episcopal Church of Northern Michigan.

The fact that a podunk TV station in Podunk, Arkansas picked up the story is precisely why this effort is a good one. There are a lot of orthodox Christians in Arkansas that have no clue what is going on. Hence, here is my contribution to the effort. Standing committee of Colorado with email addresses that I could garner:

Mr. Ken Von der Heiden, President, Northwestern Lay Representative, Term ending October 2010

The Rev. Sally Brown, Vice President, High Plains Clergy Representative, Term Ending October 2009 -
sally [at] standrewdenver.org

Mr. Sam Burns, Southwestern Lay Representative, Term Ending October 2009

The Rev. Scott Campbell, Sangre de Cristo Clergy Representative, Term Ending October 2010
padrescott [at] gmail.com

The Rev. JoAnn Ford, Southwestern Clergy Representative, Term Ending October 2010
stjohnsouray [at] ouraynet.com

Ms. Lelanda Lee, Front Range Lay Representative, Term Ending October 2010

Dr. Ted Lewis, Sangre de Cristo Lay Representative, Term ending October 2011

The Rt. Rev. Robert J. O’Neill, Ex-Officio, Bishop of Colorado
(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Mr. Bob Poley, Ex-Officio, Diocesan Treasurer

The Rev. E.J. Rivet, Northwestern Clergy Representative, Term Ending October 2011

Ms. Erin Smith, Ex-Officio, President of Episcopal Church Women of Colorado

Mr. Jay Swope, High Plains Lay Representative, Term ending October 2011

The Rev. John Wengrovius, Front Range Clergy Representative, Term Ending October 2009
Fr.John [at] calvarygolden.net

Cross-posting my latest comment from T19 here:

I was thinking of something last night and want to think aloud a bit further here with you all.  It concerns how we manage dual track concerns - about both the “election” process and the apparent heterodoxy of the bishop elect.

I had been frustrated yesterday to see Kevin Martin’s statement of concern about the process (posted at Covenant and also linked at BabyBlue).  Kevin Martin seemed to set aside any concern about Forrester’s Buddhism to focus only on the process.  On one hand I understand why he might choose to do that as a strategic decision.

BUT, it really does concern me.  It seems the tack Kevin Martin has taken opens us up to the following scenario.  Imagine Forrester is denied consents on the basis of an improper election.  (Think Mark Lawrence…).  So, imagine then the diocese holds a closely monitored open election with many candidates including Forrester.  And Forrester wins fairly, canonically.

What then would we do?  If Forrester had been elected canonically in a truly democratic election would Kevin Martin and others still object?  I.E. is a Buddhist bishop a problem?  Or is it just the manner of his election that is a problem?

I suggest it is both facts that are a problem.  If we focus merely on the election irregularities we are in effect saying what New Hampshire and those who consented to VGR said:  All that matters is that he was canonically elected.

Is that true?

And finally:  I’m not going to get drawn into a discussion about whether a Christian can validly incorporate any Zen practices into their spiritual life.  We’re not just talking about any lay Christian peon here.  We’re talking about a bishop of the Whole Church.

And that was the same issue we faced with VGR.  It wasn’t the question of whether an active homosexual can be a true Christian.  Of course he/she can.  All of us Christians are sinful.  The sin of homosexuality is no worse than the sin of deceit.  If I say a homosexual can’t be a Christian, I’d also have to say a liar can’t be a Christian - and I’d be in trouble.  I struggled with deceit in some situations for years after I’d converted.  TEC’s “Baptismal theology” as hijacked and utilized by Integrity et al is so dangerous.  “All the sacraments for all the people” they proclaim!  And they try to exploit people’s desire to want to be nice and include everyone and not be bigoted, to cross some very important lines.

It is one thing to welcome active homosexuals or Buddhists, or adulterers, or notorious alcholics, etc. etc. into our sanctuary and if they are professed and baptized Christians invite them to the Eucharist. (Hoping and praying for transformation and amendment of life…) It is another thing to ordain them as clergy and consecrate them as bishops.

Don’t let the revisionists win and don’t let them blur the lines.  Don’t be cowed by comments “do you believe that all Buddhists are bad and that noone who meditates can be a Christian?”

That’s not what we’re saying, and “They” know that.  Be clear on what we ARE saying.

1) The process may have been very questionable and troubling.

2) But even if the process had been perfect and canonical, the nominee chosen should not be consented to if he cannot affirm the faith once delivered and profess the Creeds:  That Jesus Christ alone was and is fully God and fully man, the one sufficient sacrifice for sins for all who receive Him by faith and believe on His name.

3) This is not a personal ad hominem attack.  For all I know Kevin Thew Forrester may be a wonderful man and a very inspiring encouraging person.  But unless he is clearly a Christian and one above reproach who can be held up as a model of faith and a true teacher for the WHOLE church, he can not and should not be a bishop.  Period.

Here’s the website where one can find the names and addresses of the Standing Committee of the Diocese of SouthEast Florida:
http://www.diosef.org/directory/standing-committee.shtml

The official e-mail address for Bishop Leo Frade is listed as: info[at]diosef.org

Louie Crew also lists this e-mail address for Bp. Frade:
bishopfrade[at]aol.com

Okay—we’re at nine Standing Committees.

This is progress.

Michael D—RE: “Trying to block the approval of Forrestor is like fixing the walls of a sand castle that the rising tide has undermined.”

Who said anything about “trying to block the approval”?  All I talked about was the duty of conservative Episcopalians and not letting revisionists live into their theology in peace.

Moving on to other matters . . .

I’d like to limit further comments on this thread to diocesan standing committees or reports on media activities.  I know a lot of venting is needed.  But I have the feeling that there will be other threads added where we can vent.  ; > )

Since I’m going to go back most likely and create a post just for Standing Committee information, it will really help if you simply comment with SC contact information or media information.

Thank you to those who have added these!!!

#55, your point is well taken.  I would state that I don’t believe he WOULD have been chosen if the process had been the regular one and for some of these exact reasons regarding his spirituality and if the decision is reversed and an election with actual candidates is held, I believe he would be passed over for a traditional Episcopalian.

Sarah, by all means create a post JUST for Standing Committee info.  But I do think this post and the comments here is very helpful in terms of helping those who will write their standing committees to frame their arguments. 

It is helpful to learn more about:
—what Thew Forrester really believes. 
—About conflicts between Christianity and Buddhism. 
—About the consequences of focusing merely on process issues. 

etc. 
So, can we have TWO threads? [pretty please?] One for discussion of what to do and how to do it.  One for contact info?
THANKS!

Hey Karen, I think there will be some posts about the Buddhism/Christianity issues, etc. at other times today.

If some of my other fellow bloggers wake up and start the day, that is.

Sarah, please, they’re at Holy Comforter with Pastor Pillow. This is a very important meeting going over many important things ... 

The Episcopal Diocese of Tennessee
50 Vantage Way, Suite 107
Nashville, TN 37228

+The Rt. Rev. John C. Bauerschmidt, Bishop
info[at]episcopaldiocese-tn.org

Standing Committee
“Dr. David Rowe” <drowe[at]bellsouth.net>,
“The Rev. Leigh Spruill” <leighspruill[at]stgeorgenash.org>,
“The Rev.Stuart Phillips” <stuphill[at]bellsouth.net>,
The Rev. Vicki Burgess   <church[at]stphilipsnashville.org>.
“The Rev. Randall Dunnavant” <crdunnavant [at]comcast.net> 
Mr. Shelton Clark  
Mr. Ed Miller, Esq. 
Mr. Ed Miller, Esq. 

Sorry, the email address did not make it in the copy and paste.  Trying again.

The Episcopal Diocese of Tennessee
50 Vantage Way, Suite 107
Nashville, TN 37228

+The Rt. Rev. John C. Bauerschmidt, Bishop
info[at]episcopaldiocese-tn.org

Standing Committee
“Dr. David Rowe” drowe[at]bellsouth.net
“The Rev. Leigh Spruill” leighspruill[at]stgeorgenash.org
“The Rev.Stuart Phillips” stuphill[at]bellsouth.net
” The Rev. Vicki Burgess”  church[at]stphilipsnashville.org
“The Rev. Randall Dunnavant” crdunnavant [at]comcast.net
Mr. Shelton Clark  
Mr. Ed Miller, Esq. 

Bishop of Mississippi
pjones[at]dioms[dot]org

45.  Carl,  I agree with you.  God’s Light will never be defeated.  I love that Light, and I hate the Dark.  (All capitals intended.)

However, my understanding of the question was it concerned what Episcopal peons can do, not what God Almighty can do.  I am no longer Episcopalian and I see nothing that they can do, beyond prayer.  The leadership of their body has become Episcopagan.

Man proposes.  God disposes. —Anonymous (I think.)

This link has the names and contact information for the Standing Committee members for the Diocese of Southern Virginia:
http://www.diosova.org/contactgov.htm

Sarah has posted an excellent “to do” list.  If enough “local” news operations pick this up, it will move on the wire services and then stand a chance of hitting the “24-hour news cycle” of the cable news operations.  They will usually run items that appear “weird” which this certainly does.  Although I personally see no hope for an inside strategy, TEO needs all the publicity its aberrations can get.

Sarah has posted an excellent “to do” list.  If enough “local” news operations pick this up, it will move on the wire services and then stand a chance of hitting the “24-hour news cycle” of the cable news operations.  They will usually run items that appear “weird” which this certainly does.  Although I personally see no hope for an inside strategy, TEO needs all the publicity its aberrations can get.

The point is not to thwart the election of this kook. But rather make the revisionists use more political capital and expose them for the hypocrites that they are. I would love for Bishop “Genpo” to be elected. Wonderful clarity!

<b>Let’s make sure that independent sources like The Living Church and websites publish the names of the bishops and Standing Committees and how they vote. <b>

I have written to the Bishop of Upper SC and am proofing a two-page brief to the Standing Committee.

Why?  Jesus says in Mark 1:44 “...go, show yourself to the priest…as a testimony against them.”  There is no miracle here but the witness is important for everyone’s sake.

I have a question for Renzinthewoods (or for TJ):  Has Father Forrester made any public statements about his Buddhism, in some effort presumably to show that he is a Christian with an interest in Buddhism, or something similar?  In view of the development of this story, it would seem that Fr. Forrester should have some impetus, some burden, to come forward and assure his brother and sister Episcopalians that he is not a Buddhist.  If Mark Lawrence could be asked for assurances he would not lead DioSC out of TEC, it seems fair to insist that this bishop-elect give us a statement of his personal faith and understanding, and that no consents go forward until that statement is available.

Dick #73, if you mean making statements to the effect of “Well, as a buddhist, I believe…”  No. Kevin is strongly influenced by Buddhist teaching, meditation, etc.  He does often refer to buddhist teaching in conversation or discussion.  From the pulpit Kevin makes reference to various faith traditions to make various points in his sermon and is very involved in local InterFaith efforts.  As far as his Christian beliefs, he rejects atonement theology, apparently in all its forms.  If you are interested, the last time I checked there were sermons available on the church (St. Paul’s Marquette) website for listening.  In more than one he has preached on Julian of Norwich vs. Anselm in order to explain his beliefs regarding atonement theology.  Under his direction, the congregation has been using liturgies that vary from a straightforward use of the BCP.  The congregation creates worship booklets for ease of use and larger type, but also because the language is not always directly from the BCP.  He writes his own collects, he takes prayers (Eucharistic and otherwise) from a variety of sources often adapting them himself.  I think he would argue that he has often started with a Rite II Eucharistic prayer and made “minor adjustments.”  There have been individuals in the congregation who have been disappointed by this at times.  To what extent his Christian beliefs have been influenced by his studies of Buddhism, I am not a strong scholar of either theology or comparitive religions.  I have read comments here at SFIF to suggest that there is a relationship between both.

Diocese of Alabama’s website information for the Standing Committee seems to have been cleaned off. I know they just had a Diocesean Convention but there is nothing there regarding past or present members.
Several other committee listings seem to be vacant as well. How odd…
Any contact info would be appreciated.

#55…many have this illusion of Dallas as orthodox…I was in the Diocese of Dallas…once upon a time +Kevin Martin was at Christ Church Plano…then he became Dean of St. Matthew’s Cathedral…and revealed himself as a COMPLETE company man…St. Matt’s has a dark spiritual feel to it, even if the dean proclaims orthodoxy…it’s offputting.  Dallas is a moderate diocese, if that…and the sagging continues…the suffragan is a KJS cooperator…parishes are held under microscope to prevent them leaving…and some that did, got NOTHING promised…and the bishop abandoned ACN and Common Cause…for the “Covenant”(cue ethereal Excalibur-like music)...

As an individual living in a pluralistic, secular humanistic society, he has the free will to tap into whatever energies of the universe he wishes. The ancient motto is, “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”

Judaism and Christianity have very different expectations.

Furthermore, traditional Christianity definitely has very different expectations of those in holy orders. An undisciplined priest has no business being in holy orders at all, not even to mention being allowed to run for election as a bishop. Once ordained, consecrated and installed, he will destroy what’s left of that diocese.

For what it’s worth:

Episcopal Diocese of San Diego: The Rt. Rev. James Mathes, bishopmathes[at]edsd[dot]org

San Diego Standing Committee:
The Standing Committee is composed of eight members: four clergy and four laity.

Officers: The Rev. Paul Carmona, President pcarmona[at]sbcglobal[dot].net

Stephen Treadgold, Vice President   streadgold[at]health-law[dot]com

Canon Peter Bergstrom, Secretary   info[at]campstevens[dot]org

2009 Term: The Rev. Paul Carmona, Stephen Treadgold
2010 Term: The Very Rev. Scott Richardson, Canon Peter Bergstrom
2011 Term: The Rev. Wes Hills, Ana Garcia
2012 Term: The Rev. Leland Jones, Luisa Bonillas, Ph.D.

Why both objecting?  More clarity!

I don’t see anyone here predicting he won’t be confirmed, or that there is even a reasonable chance of defeating it.

[75] Try internet archive:

http://www.archive.org/index.php

There is a block for entering the appropriate page address.  You may have to use the main page and then navigate.

Just for the record, the Episcopal Diocese of Olympia (Western Washington State) as listed on the diocesan website has only one person listed by name as a contact (presumably the Secretary of the Standing Committee???). All of the references I could find were “circular,” i.e., they led back to the same description with that one email address. Presumably, any member of a parish in the diocese should be able to contact the listed person at the listed email and obtain the names and addresses (postal, email or ‘in care of’ the Diocese) of the members in order to communicate with them.

The listed contact is: Tiffany Brannon, tbrannon[at]ecww[dot]org

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

Renz, Thank you for your prompt response (#74).  If KTF has not clarified his Buddhism, it might be an effort he should now undertake. 

OTOH, I am troubled by your description that he has rejected atonement theology.  I don’t get my knickers in a knot over the Baptismal Covenant—I was baptized and confirmed long before its composition.  But some emphasis is given to it nowadays, and a critical question is “Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching…?”  The apostles’ teaching, as set forth in the New Testament, does not elaborate on the doctrine of the Trinity, or contain much reflection on the Virgin Birth, but it is replete with atonement theology.  From Mark 10:44, through Acts and virtually all the epistles, and certainly Revelation, there is no teaching as central as the teaching of the atoning death of Jesus of Nazareth.  How can anyone reconcile a rejection of the atonement with the Baptismal Covenant, and still be considered as a bishop in the church?  I guess that may be a rhetorical question….

  Sarah, this may be a bit off-thread, so I offer my apologies.

Dick (73) and Renz—Since I’m committed to the effort to deny consent in my diocese, I might as well wade on in deeper.

In Thew Forrester’s own words:

“I, as a Christian, received Buddhist “lay ordination” and a new name, to go along with my Christian name: Genpo (Japanese, for “way of universal wisdom”). I now walk the path of Christianity and Zen Buddhism.” (“Bridging the Gap: Finding a Place in East and West” [continued portion titled: “A Zen Christian,”] Kevin Thew Forrester in Diocese of Northern Michigan newspaper—The Church in Hiawathaland, Vol. 15, No. 6, July/August 2004 [be aware that individual pages are labeled “February 2004], page C).

Further quotes raises other concerns: “I see now a Jesus who does not raise the bar to salvation, but lowers it so far that it disappears.” (same source, page C)  This is a new insight for him that he links to Buddhism.

“All of creation is always already accepted by God as it is.” (same source, page D) By “all of creation,” he means every human being. To say that every human being is “always, already accepted by God” is the most absolute statement of universal salvation possible. Jesus Christ is not necessary at all as a divine Savior.

Completely in line with these words is a diocesan response to the Primates of the Anglican Communion, signed onto by the Core Team of the Diocese, led by Kevin Thew Forester. The Buddhist mark is clear in the following assertions.

“We seek and serve Christ in all persons because all persons are the living Christ. Each and every human being, as a human being, is knit together in God’s Spirit, and thus an anointed one – Christ.” (A Response from the Diocese of Northern Michigan’s Standing Committee to the “Dar es Salaam Communiqué.”
August 11, 2007     http://www.upepiscopal.org/daressalaam.html
The printed version in the Diocese newspaper includes affirmation by the Core Team)

“Everyone is the sacred word of God, in whom Christ lives.” (Response to Dar)  I invite you to substitute the name of Charles Manson into this sentence and into the one before. This is what Thew Forrester intends.

There is some line of beliefs that disqualifies a person from being a Bishop in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church—an apostolic teacher of the Faith. I believe Kevin Thew Forrester is over that line. Even if he lets his ordination in Buddhism go, his core beliefs are deeply in line with Zen Buddhism, rather that with historic Christian faith.

The URL below give the front page of most major papers in the world:
http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/flash/default.asp
Click on the page and most of the papers have a website connected to the page.

Michigan’s Standing Committee can only be reached by sending an e-mail to the Chair, currently the Rev’d Barbara Cavin at holyspirit6452 [at] sbcglobal [dot] net

#83 Jim,

The doctrines the bishop-elect talks about in the quotes you’ve given, are not specifically “Buddhist”. The quotes refer to salvation, to Jesus, and nothing really Buddhist. It seems to me that the bishop-elect is saying things with which Christian Universalists would gladly agree. I guess you could say that his Buddhism is compatible with his Christian theology, but to say that his Buddhism is the source of his Christian theology ignores Christian Universalism, Christian mysticism, and the whole Liberal/Progressive Christianity of the 20th-Century.

#85-
Rev. Forrester’s writing encompasses a wide range of heresies of the past 2 millenia: Pelagian, Gnostic, Arian, Universalist- all sorts of things.  However, if you study the body of his writing, a form of Buddhism informs his theology and doctrine- and certainly some of his sermons.  Although not being in any way an expert on Buddhism, I suspect that his Buddhism is as revisionist as his Christianity.  It really is all about him.  Who else could self determine that he is an “only begotten child of God”?  I am led to wonder how Rev. Forrester and Dr. Schori’s classmates were able to fit into the room occupied by those 2 egos.

In the article with the quote about “lowering the bar for salvation”, Thew Forrester explains that he arrives at decisions via “my own soul work.”

Let us not forget that Thew Forrester has made a cottage industry out of the mutual ministry training business.  If your diocese is going into a mutual ministry model, beware of materials he has authored or consulted on, and do not allow this man to be brought in as a trainer or consultant- or you too may live in a diocese just like this.

tjmcmahon (#88), there’s a wealth of info and links to his training philosophy and materials in the latest post over at the Curmudgeon’s site. Also, for those writing your bishops and Standing Committees, be sure to read about all of his connections with other dioceses, and check out the names of the people who serve with him on boards and committees.

It’s just as well to know what you’re getting into and where you can have some influence if you are in one of those dioceses.

#14 (or is it 15?) Why is it Heterodox to make a Buddhist bishop if you already have an unbaptized (see Utah) one?  I know, this will also be ignored, it usually is…Also there’s Ann Redding, the Muslim priestess.  No word about her (unlikely) deposition, is there?  Now the big question:  Why does this or any of it surprise ANY Episcopalian?  Have you been asleep for 35 years?

What’s all the fuss about?

Buddhist Lay ordination only involves the five precepts which are to abstain from: killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct or intoxicants.

#86 tjmcmahon

You raise an interesting question in jest, and perhaps I can also help with some more information.  Contrary to common belief KJS did not do her entire ‘theological’ training at CDSP.  Like me she was only there for the academic year 1992-1993.  She had taken classes at a Jesuit School in OR and was basically at CDSP, again like me, to get in her Anglicanism classes quota and sit the GOE’s.

Now in that year CDSP did not as fas as I can remember have one alumni in the House of Bishops. However several other people were also in that room (squeezing the one or two conservatives out) who are now pointy hats including one whom most here will say is one of the better ones in Ed Konieczny who voted against the Duncan deposition.  Along with Forrester was his then girlfriend Rise Thew, the current PB, Jay Johnson (one of the authors of the official response to the Windsor Report) and a few others.  Throw in L. William Countryman at ‘New Testament,’ Louis Weil in Liturgy and Linda Clader at ‘Homiletics,’ one has a recipe for progressive Anglican fudge with lots of chocolate chips of other religions for good measure.

Alasdair
CDSP Class of 93… Mea culpa.

PS.  I am going to make a prophecy sans crystal ball that another name we should look for starting to pop up in the nomination lists is Brett Olson, who as the then Rector of Sparks, NV was the one who nominated KJS for Nevada after KJS ‘dropped in’ to ask her a few questions for a continuing education project (don’t know if it was in her capacity as Dean of a Sunday School).  I will be very very surprised if she doesn’t get a pointy hat as she moved from being Canon to the Ordinary in El Camino Real to the same job for Barry Beisner in Nth California.

Re Christianity and Zen, you all would be interested to see this I am sure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Robert_Kennedy and I’d be interested in your views of the Roman Church, which permits it.

Chicago Diocese Standing Committee

The Rev. Suzann Holding president
Rector, Church of Our Saviour, Elmhurst
MthrSuzi [at] aol [dot] com

The Rev [dot]  Bonnie Perry
Rector, All Saints, Chicago
bonnie [at] allsaintschicago [dot] org

The Rev [dot]  William Nesbit, Jr., secretary  
Rector, St. Charles, Saint Charles
scecrector [at] sbcglobal [dot] net

Colette Holt
Church of Our Saviour, Chicago
Colette [dot] holt [at] choltlaw [dot] com

Barbara Larsen
Grace Church, Oak Park
bklarsen1809 [at] comcast [dot] net

Michael Perillo
St.  Andrew’s, Grayslake
Mikejr12 [at] aol [dot] com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXTGmzFGoT0
Regarding the Zenpiscopal business.  This is fabulous!!!  This guy in the wilderness gets it…and TEC leaders in all their “sophistication”, don’t.  He may not have all details down pat, but come on, he’s a pretty succinct and down to earth guy with common sense.

Kudos to BabyBlue for the YouTube source above…

#93 I’d be interested in your view on Paul Willians, The Unexpected way - the intellectual account of a man who converts from Buddhism to Roman Catholicism.

Will Rev. Thew Forrester’s reported response at Canon Harris’s blog be deemed a ‘sufficient’ reply by most Standing Committees?

Peace & a Blessed Lent,

M.S. #98—Most likely so, but it would still be good to get the issues before them so their votes will result in more clarity.

It was to be expected that the bishop-elect would come out to downplay everything.

Will Rev. Thew Forrester’s reported response at Canon Harris’s blog be deemed a ‘sufficient’ reply by most Standing Committees?

Probably not, if they read and digest the five articles that Sarah cites in her article above (under #1).  Even if the standing committees acquiesce, I wonder which 56 bishops will put their signatures to consents, knowing that there names will forever be connected to the “Buddhist bishop”.  I think some bishops are kind of embarrassed by this.  Who knows, there are probably 20 or 30 who will withhold consent just based on denial of the Creeds, the “affirmations” in the Dar statement and all that nonsense about all of us being “incarnations of God”.  And some of the institutional GC types are clearly not happy with the way the process was carried out without GC approval of the “revision” of the office of bishop. With the way they have it planned, if N Michigan broke for TEC, KJS would not even know who to depose.

The Curmudgeon’s superb research tells us how this fraud was assembled and who assembled it, in order to hijack this small diocese.  More importantly, it starkly reveals the constant scheming of the little cells of the ultra left, who have used just these methods to hijack what used to be a Christian denomination.  No “inside strategy” will work against such obsessive and pervasive scheming.  Get out now.

The little cells of the ultra-left are pustules of crassly arrogant elitism which give the lie to the left’s “inclusiveness” prattle.  The pestilence which has stricken this little hapless diocese will spread to the rest of TEO quickly.  The comatose pew-sitters will be Unitarians before they learn to spell it. Lord, have mercy.

I don’t understand all the uproar here.  What is one more High-Church Unitarian to add to the the existing HOB Polyglot Pseudo-Christian Menagerie ?

Observer, I agree to a point.  This elections irregularities, and the strangeness of this mans’ theology have been noted, recorded, argued against, protested, and because of SFIF, will be there for posterity.

There’s no way the machine will take back that which it has wrought.  The machinery of TEC now has a life of its’ own, and its’ trajectory is set.  The trajectory will not be stopped, because people like us don’t have the influence, numbers, and power to stop it.

If you are in DioTex, Bishop-elect Doyle is holding a series of town hall meetings in the coming weeks. +Doyle is not part of the vote but you can raise the issue during the Q&A;to a) raise awareness about this fiasco, b) increase pressure on +Wemberly and c) see how our incoming bishop responds.

#106 By all means, pray for +Doyle.  I hope this meeting puts him to the test and that people can get a genuine discernment of who he is and what he’ll truly be like.  But I am not confident in his past.  He is a “moderate”...we know what that usually means.  Also he was “consecrated” by Our Lady of Litigation, herself.  A lady replaced him as Canon to the Ordinary…and another lady is suffragan.  There is little toleration for those opposed to WO.(not meaning to turn this into a WO thread)  Will there be more Camp Allens???  I look forward to hearing more, as I live near DioTex.

Looks like we’ve faded out on the whole *take action* thing. Chatter is gone on this thread for what peons can do.

I don’t think people are chattering on this thread because we are writing our bishops and standing committees, as well as trying to get the word out…taking action.

The reason “chatter” has gone down is because folks finally realized that having a Buddhist Episcopal Bishop is actually a good thing.  When you think about it, Episcopalians are basically Buddhists anyway so why not just be honest about it?  Cradle Episcopalian here, so I know what I’m talking about and so do you.  Anyway, the real question becomes, once you have written a flaming letter to all the bishops and standing committees you can think of, how do you sheepishly retract your ill-advised objection and explain what you REALLY meant was that the Buddhist Anglican Communion is a swell idea.

IMHO

Fr. Van—I’m either confused or fascinated. Do I remember right that you take a moderate/liberal line in discussions here? If so, are you writing to your bishop and standing committee? If so, will you share what you are writing?

Bull Street [111] - I think FrVan isn’t fond of the way people are trying to “take it with them” in terms of church buildings and the like when they leave TEO.  (And I would ask FrVan to correct me if I’m wrong or to flesh out where I’m right; I know I’m greatly oversimplifying his position.)  But I’m pretty sure he doesn’t like what TEO is pulling anymore than the rest of us do.  I’ve seen him get downright…vocal…at times over some of the things they’ve done, if you’ll allow me an understatement.

Newsletter article:
http://www.trinitychurchpb.org/March_2009.pdf

Letter:
Dear Pam:
  I am writing you in your capacity as president of the standing committee.It is my request that you relay to the membership of that body that they consider, seriously, withholding consent to the consecration of the Rev. Thew Forrester as Bishop of Northern Michigan. While I believe the process of his election to have been flawed and reason enough to withhold consent, that is not the primary concern I have. The Rev. Mr. Forrester is a practicing Buddhist, “ordained” as it were, into their “lay order.” While eccentricity of this sort is to be expected amongst some of our clergy, a bishop is the defender of the Faith, and in the line of the Apostles. I believe the Rev. Forrester to have abandoned the Communion of this Church, and therefore unfit to be considered for the office of bishop.
  In a separate email I will send a copy of our parish newsletter with more on this matter as its topic, Thank you for your consideration of this issue.
                                                                                        The Rev. Dr. Walter Van Zandt Windsor,
                                    Rector,Trinity Episcopal Church and School, Pine Bluff, Arkansas

Dear Bull:
  No, I am not a liberal though by standards on this blog, I am moderate. By recent TEC standards I am to the right of Attila the Hun. I have been a traditionalist priest for 23 years. By my standards, I just happen to be correct…

[114] FrVan,

Intending absolutely no disrespect nor condecension whatever, your statement “By my standards, I just happen to be correct…” instantly evoked in me the internal thought “By each of our standards, and whichever side of the aisle(s) we happen to inhabit, aren’t we all.”

God’s blessings and my warmest regards,
Keith Toepfer

SCMichael, I think you put it correctly, thanks.

#133 Fr. Van,

Way to go! I wonder what Lowell G. will have to say if anything.

Fr. Van,

I am writing you in your capacity as president of the standing committee….

Thanks and prayers from behind the lines in N. Mich.
TJ

Fr. Van—To quote a naval authority (posted elsewhere in SF):Bravo Zulu!1 And thank you.

1—Naval flag hoist code for ”Well done.”

Apologies for plagiarism to Keith Toepfer

[119] Bull Street,

Considering the clear attribution, no plagiarism obtains. To plagiarize requires an unattributed citation.

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

Foxtrot Yankee India
Before the <s>prayer book</s> phoentic alphabet was revised the official US Navy term was Baker Zebra.

I am brand new here. I’m a Canadian priest, evangelical, orthodox, charismatic, etc. With my wife, we are ministry developers/missioners in a western diocese with an orthodox bishop. The aspect of this so-called election that interests me is the notion that the Dio of N Michigan could self select a team of people with Forrester in it, in a manner similar to a local ministry team in a parish or cluster, which includes within it a deacon or two, a priest, and a variety of lay ministers. In the USA you call them canon 9 priests, I think.
On the ground, local ministry teams can work, in my view, while remaining orthodox (although I am interested in contrary opinions, it may be open to debate. It is interesting that so many liberals like local ministry teams. Why?).
However, such an approach as a local ministry team assumes oversight and accountability beyond itself, including the process of training, selection and commissioning/ordination.
The nature of Anglicanism is such that much oversight from beyond a diocese is toothless. Each diocese is a fiefdom. Thus what may work at the parish level, with checks and balances built around it, is a recipe for abuse at the diocesan level, for the same reasons that so many practices and beliefs of dioceses can be an abuse.
I say this because it is possible that the notion of local ministry teams may be tarred with the same brush that Forrester’s syncretism is tarred with.
What say ye?

I don’t mean to be rude in this discussion, but why is a Buddhist Bishop more of an offense than a sodomite one, or even more vitally, a Primate who is demonstrably heretically Pelagian, Marcion, Pluralist, Universalist, Gnostic, and more?  Fighting the appointment of a Buddhist within the confines of an organization overwhelming led by other kinds of apostates seems, really, like a waste of time. 

While we should pray for their repentance and salvation, I also pray that IF they will not repent, the errors, and irrationality of TEC’s leadership will INCREASE—so as to scare off more people from their false gospel, and even keep shrinking and collapsing that human organization, faster than more subtle errors would do…

Christ’ Church is strong and overcoming, all over the world….just NOT unfortunately within an organization called TEC.

This is how I look at it. If you do nothing, then you are just as guilty as those who consent to it. If you write a letter (or in my case I have left TEC but encouraged others to write with the info) and fail to stop his consent ... At least you did something besides complain about it. If his consent fails, then there is hope for those who remain in TEC to fight within. Consent or not, people need to wake up and for some they will. Even if one person wakes up from their pew and says, ‘this is not right’, then it is worth it. I am sorry I did nothing in 2003. At the time, I was living in CA, going to a liberal parish in an orthodox town. I had no idea what was going on and the impact until 2004, Then it was too late.

Kudos to some people in So. Ohio for their appeal to their bishop and Standing Committee.
http://vicarsblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/in-response-to-northern-michigan.html

Just to report that my rector said Sunday before last that the Standing Committee of the Diocese of Rio Grande will definitely not be supporting/affirming Rev. Forrester.