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Betrayal and Deceit at the Heart of Buddhist Bishop Controversy?

Tuesday, March 10, 2009 • 10:26 am

Now that Forrester’s election as bishop is shining a brighter light on the absurdity of claiming to be both a Christian and a Buddhist, he wants to backpedal on just how much of a Buddhist he really is. “I am not a Buddhist,” he says flatly. But everywhere we look, we find him happily doing all the things that Buddhists do.


I can see that around the web plenty of people are confounded - aghast, even - that conservatives would have a problem with Kevin Thew Forrester, the Buddhist bishop-elect of Northern Michigan. Even Ruth Gledhill, in a column that reads more like a biography Forrester himself would submit to Wikipedia than a serious inquiry into his theology and qualifications for office, seems to be pleading for Forrester’s election to be approved.

The harumphing of our Worthy Opponents is predictable, and little explanation need be given as to why they are harumphing. Ruth’s article, on the other hand, is a glimpse into the kind of go-along-to-get-along thinking that has characterized so much of the Anglican “moderate” camp for… well, some would say for the last 450 years, but I’ll just go with the last 30 or 40. For some it is the mindset of, “Gee, I don’t know Forrester personally, so I can’t say with empirical certainty that he is a heretic, so far be it from me to judge the mind of the man on Matters as Deep as This.” In Ruth’s case it is gauzy memories of an Anglican priest father who took meditation seriously, memories transposed fondly onto Forrester in the hope, I suppose, that he will turn out not to be who he clearly is, which is someone who would be bishop of a Christian church yet not a proclaimer of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, I am a Ruth fan, but I have watched with dismay her steady drift to the left in this debate, and I have to call her out on the reasoning she’s using to support the approval of Forrester’s election. It amounts to the observation that certain meditative techniques used by Zen Buddhists can be used beneficially in Christian prayer. Whether this is true has never been at issue - it is true, and few conservatives will deny it or even have much of a problem with it. But in offering this as one of her reasons why Forrester’s election should be approved, she misses entirely the core of the problem with Forrester, his theology, his worship, all the way down to the mechanics of his nomination process and eventual election at Northern Michigan’s diocesan convention.

We’ve thoroughly documented the broad incompatibilities between Buddhism and Christianity, and no, trying to sneak through using the “Hey it’s cool because it’s only Zen Buddhism” excuse won’t wash. The bottom line is that Forrester has embraced something foreign and contradictory - call it a faith, call it a philosophy, call it what you will but it is not Christianity - that denies Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Whether there are overlapping philosophies or practices between Christianity and Buddhism is beside the point - we know that there are, just as there are between Christianity and many other faiths. What Ruth seems not to want to address is the glaring discrepancy between what one must embrace to be plausibly described as a Zen Buddhist, and what one must embrace to be plausibly described as a Christian, and the fact that Forrester claims to reconcile these irreconcilable things. Forrester’s protests aside, he can more than plausibly be described as a Zen Buddhist. The same cannot be said of his description as a Christian. One simply cannot embrace the doctrines of Buddhism - Zen or any other flavor - and simultaneously embrace the doctrines of Christianity, yet Forrester claims to do just that.

To put as simply as I know how, one cannot simultaneously assert that Buddhism, which denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, is true… and that Christianity, defined by the proposition that Jesus Christ is divine, is also true. It is a contradiction and an incoherence of a type that insults not just the intelligence of thinking Christians, but Christ Himself.

We’ve also documented the problems with Forrester’s nomination process, in which the diocese formed a committee that included Forrester as a member, and then put forth Forrester himself as the only candidate. If this had been done by a conservative diocese, there would be howls of derisive liberal laughter almost certainly followed by “inquiries” of an official and unpleasant type from 815.

We’ve also shown how Forrester revises the liturgy to a such a degree that it fails to meet not just the standards of orthodox Christianity, but Christianity of any recognizable form.

So in light of the copious evidence that Forrester is not simply a devout Christian who takes seriously some meditative practices that have something in common with Zen Buddhism, but a man who very clearly embraces something - whatever it is called by him or his apologists - that is antithetical to Christianity, Ruth’s piece on Forrester is all the more distressing.

Then there is the matter of exactly what, if anything, Forrester went through in his “lay ordination.” If, as Forrester claims on the one hand, he is walking the path of Buddhism and Christianity together, and then on the other hand claims:

I am not a Buddhist, or a Buddhist priest.  I am someone who as a Christian is very grateful for having been taught by the Zen community how to sit.
...
“Lay ordination” has a different meaning in Buddhist practice than in the Christian tradition. The essence of this welcoming ceremony, which included no oaths, was my resolve to use the practice of meditation as a path to awakening to the truth of the reality of human suffering.

...then we are faced with a few questions that put Forrester in a difficult position.


Kevin Thew Forrester, right, and Shoken
Winecoff, Abbot of Ryumonji Zen
monastery in Iowa.

1. If he is not a Buddhist, then why is there article after article by him and about him, in the mainstream media and his own diocesan newsletter, detailing his adherence to and affection for it? (For that matter, why didn’t Ruth detect this flagrant contradiction, point it out, and ask for an explanation that actually makes sense?)

2. If he is not a Buddhist, then what was the point of “lay ordination”? While I don’t buy his insistence that lay ordination “has a different meaning in Buddhist practice than in the Christian tradition” such that it renders the comparisons nonsensical, I’m willing to accept it for the sake of argument. But even when I do, I come to the unavoidable conclusion that this is like claiming that just because one has undergone “ordination as a deacon” in the Baptist church, one is not really a Baptist. For Baptists, “ordination as a deacon” is similar to the blessing given in church to new members of the vestry. It is not remotely the same as the conferring of orders as Anglicans understand it. But the difference is of no consequence when it comes to the religious identity of the person involved in the ceremony: One does not get ordained as a Baptist deacon unless one is… a Baptist. Similarly, one does not get ordained as a Buddhist - lay or otherwise - unless one is, well… a Buddhist.

3. Now that Forrester’s election as bishop is shining a brighter light on the absurdity of claiming to be both a Christian and a Buddhist, he wants to backpedal on just how much of a Buddhist he really is. “I am not a Buddhist,” he says flatly. But everywhere we look, we find him happily doing all the things that Buddhists do: He writes articles about the wonders of Buddhism… he gives seminars and hosts retreats focused entirely on Buddhism… he receives Zen Buddhist “lay ordination”... his own bishop describes him as “walking the path of Buddhism and Christianity together.” But Kevin Thew Forrester either is, or is not, a Buddhist. If he is, then he is not a Christian. If that’s the case, then not only is he unfit to be a priest, never mind bishop, but he is trying to deceive Christians about what he truly believes. If he is not a Buddhist, then he is betraying all the Buddhists who have mentored him, as well as all those he has mentored himself.

Either way, it is hard to conclude anything other than Kevin Thew Forrester is trying to deceive Christians, or Buddhists, or both, in his bid to become the next bishop of Northern Michigan. The list of reasons his election should not be approved already includes syncretism, false teaching, and what is generously described as a “flawed” (and perhaps corrupt) nomination process. Is it fair to say that we can also add the character defects of betrayal and deliberate deceit?


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Comments:

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…............It’s a duck Buddhist.

the snarkster™

[1] Posted by the snarkster on 03-10-2009 at 10:45 AM • top

I agree with you; I think the whole bit about the “ordination” doesn’t mean the same in the Buddhist tradition as it does in the Christian tradition, is just side stepping. I think your analogy to someone becoming a Baptist deacon is an appropriate one.  For whatever reason he wants to be a Bishop-the money, the prestige-whatever. It’s a sad state of affairs, and I imagine the TEC will consecrate him anyway.

[2] Posted by FenelonSpoke on 03-10-2009 at 11:31 AM • top

I think it possible that Ruth simply had not invested the research time that you have, Greg.  Maybe she was just busy, had a couple of phone conversations which reinforced the wonderful memories of her father, and with a deadline staring her in the face, she wrote the article in good faith, not realizing it was incomplete.
You hit the nail on the head about the nomination process.  Schori threw out Mark Lawrence’s election because consents were received electronically rather on paper, based on a nuanced interpretation of the canons.  Yet, Northern Michigan threw out both bishop election process canons whole cloth, and Schori defends it.

[3] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 03-10-2009 at 11:51 AM • top

I think you may be right. I read the article. What jumped out at me was the idea that she projected memories of her dear Anglican father onto Forrester and hence said “What’s the fuss?” without much investigation.

[4] Posted by FenelonSpoke on 03-10-2009 at 11:58 AM • top

Jill,

I’m the first to give Ruth the benefit of the doubt, but in this case her piece was published well over a week after we began posting large amounts of material detailing Forrester’s background and continued practice as a Buddhist. She even links us in her column as reference to the “conservatives” who are unhappy. So I find it impossible to believe that she was unaware of the evidence we’ve presented here every day for the past couple of weeks.

[5] Posted by Greg Griffith on 03-10-2009 at 12:00 PM • top

There is another possibility for Rev. Forrester’s incoherent positions besides deceit. In post-modern, relativist philosophy, I understand that there is no such thing as objective truth or meaning. Meaning is subjective, and is supplied by the hearer or reader of the communication. Moreover, from a post-modern perspective it is entirely appropriate to hold mutually contradictory beliefs simultaneously, even where, as here, to do so is logically impossible. I think that practitioners of this sort of thinking like the describe what they are doing as holding such contradictory beliefs “in tension”. From that perspective, Rev. Forrester might think that he is both a Christian and a Buddhist and not think that the logical impossibility of being both is untenable.

Christianity assumes a universe in which objective Truth exists and is knowable by humans. In Christianity, Jesus is, objectively, the Son of God, and one cannot coherently also simultaneously believe the Jesus was not the Son of God. Thus, even if Rev Forrester is not intentionally deceiving, he has still rejected the “objective” world view (i.e. that objective Truth exists and is knowable) foundational to Christianity. In my view, that rejection, which makes all Christian claims in the Creeds nonsense, is alone sufficient to render him unfit to be a bishop.

I write this because I suspect that many of TEC’s leaders, starting with the Presiding Bishop, share Rev. Forrester’s post-modern, relativistic world view. What they have done is to keep quiet about their real beliefs in a way Forrester has not. Who, then, is being the more deceitful?

[6] Posted by Publius on 03-10-2009 at 12:08 PM • top

Betrayal and Deceit at the Heart?  No.  He is who he is, a confused middle aged guy that never grew up.  He is where he is because there has been a complete abandonment of following clear, well thought out requirments for the priesthood by those who were left in charge of the process. 

Had there been anyone with any shred of the basic idea of protection of the church from these wack-a-doodles, he would not be where he is.  The problem is that the church is run by wack-a-doodles.

[7] Posted by Looking for Leaders on 03-10-2009 at 12:17 PM • top

Good analysis, Publius - and good question. I am more worried about those who are keeping silent than I am by those who are upfront about their lack of faith.

[8] Posted by oscewicee on 03-10-2009 at 12:22 PM • top

#6 Publius,
The thought that people may think they are “holding contradictory beliefs in tension” is a good idea.

To me it looks like their bungee cord is frayed.

[9] Posted by Undergroundpewster on 03-10-2009 at 12:29 PM • top

Minchia! The blogger “Fire and Judgement” certainly has no problem with mincing words, does he? And Ruth Gledhill’s column is extremely ummmm sympathetic to the point where one fears sycophancy (so unlike her). Very weird. But I’m still not reversing my discernment that Mr Forrester is revising both Christianity and Buddhism, though with the best will in the world, deriving from a lack of real understanding of either tradition.

[10] Posted by A Senior Priest on 03-10-2009 at 03:19 PM • top

...But in offering this as one of her reasons why Forrester’s election should be approved, she misses entirely the core of the problem with Forrester, his theology, his worship…

EXACTLY. This is the major issue. The other things are important, but they are being used to spin people away from the fact that his core beliefs in Christianity warrant careful investigation.

...certain meditative techniques used by Zen Buddhists can be used beneficially in Christian prayer. Whether this is true has never been at issue - it is true, and few conservatives will deny it or even have much of a problem with it.

Ummm…does anyone know if he has (and meets with) a bona fide orthodox spiritual director? Remember the opening scene in the wonderful Deacon Payne video? ANY information obtained in a meditation session needs to be checked against Scripture and Tradition. REMEMBER, VGR states that he has been receiving messages from God.

[11] Posted by Ralph on 03-10-2009 at 03:38 PM • top

Though it’s pure speculation on my part, I don’t see this situation as all that complicated or unusual. You start with a person drawn to spirituality (in the broad sense). He becomes a priest in a church were there’s a strong tide running toward improvising, and a concurrent weakening devotion to orthodoxy.

He develops an interest in Zen, which is, after all, part of the post-1950s intellectual fabric in America, from Merton to Kerouac ... to the Dalai Lama. (And who can’t like the Dalai Lama?) And there are precedents and parallels. Meditation, contemplation—they’re parts of many religions, including Christianity.

He begins to dabble in American Zendom and becomes a lay brother. Who cares? Not the Buddhists. Not the Episcopalians. He’s walking the twin paths of Christianity and Buddhism. Cool, right? I bet he does a great guided meditation with people after they walk in the maze cut into the grass in the yard outside church.

But then, through no fault of his own, he gets shoehorned as his diocese’s “only” candidate for bishop. Before he knows it this Zen business is transformed from badge of hipness to albatross about the neck. Like Peter denying Christ, he begins to furiously discount one of the very attributes that no doubt gave him a chic and happening resume for bishop in a church that—let’s face it—doesn’t really care if the clergy believes in the Trinity, or that Christ is the way to salvation, or that you style yourself a Buddhist AND a Christian (which is like claiming you’re a man AND a woman—but maybe that only muddies the water when the subject is TEC).

Pity the poor pagans in the Episcopal Church. First they discriminate against the Druid Episcopal priests, then the Islamic Episcopal priests. It seems the Buddhists are destined to become the next victims of Episcopal bigotry, unless the new bishop-elect can put enough space between himself and that guy who gained enlightenment under a tree in northern India. Problem is, his karma may be too damaged at this point to pass muster.

Mark my words: If this keeps up, they’ll be coming for the gay priests and bishops next.

It’s a shame. No, really.

It’s interesting to watch TEC self-destruct, now that my diocese is no longer shackled to it.

[12] Posted by Lay observer on 03-10-2009 at 03:58 PM • top

If I should have to go under the surgeon’s knife, I do hope he/she will have been chosen more carefully than Thew Forrester has been chosen nominee for bishop of DioNMich.  Either one is a trained surgeon, having followed a defined course of study and residency, passing board review and licensing exams and thus is licensed to practice their specialty in medicine, or one is not.  And neither would I want that highly qualified and trained surgeon to represent me in a court of law, nor would I want the lawyer to operate surgically on me.

2 completely different disciplines.
2 completely different, mutually exclusive and irreconcilable worldviews and faiths.
0 candidates for bishop of NMich.

[13] Posted by Milton on 03-10-2009 at 04:04 PM • top

SFIF: New article is up a Episcopal Life online—haven’t reviewed it yet.

http://www.episcopal-life.org/81803_105800_ENG_HTM.htm

[14] Posted by Gator on 03-10-2009 at 04:54 PM • top

Much of this is the result of divorcing spirituality from Christian theology. I have little doubt that a robust Christian may find some commonality with the spiritual disciplines of other world religions and for those so inclined this is a legitimate area of exploration.

However such personal, academic or even devotional exploration has to be balanced by the bounden duty of a Christian bishop or priest to be clear in his or her fidelity to the Gospel and the Faith. A bishop and by derivation a priest as the local representative of the bishop is bound by oath to foster the teaching of the Church and its unity and mission.

I am even more disturbed by the functional stress on ordination to be found in much “Mutual Ministry” practice. Not even the most radical of our Reformers embraced the concept that ordination is merely a recognition by the local community of a call to minister the sacraments. Ironically such an idea leads us back to the “hedge priests” of the Medieval church: men set aside to mutter Mass, for a congregation. Thus out of a rejection of priestcraft emerges a theology which advances the idea of priest as magician. So now we are to have bishops set aside functionally to perform tasks other cannot perform.

The logic of all this, partially mirrored in the Sydney proposal of lay administration of the sacraments poses the question of why lay persons cannot exercise episcopal sacramental actions. If episcopacy in Northern Michigan is to be the by committee why, pray tell, is a person to be set aside to be an episcopal sacramentalist?

[15] Posted by wvparson on 03-10-2009 at 05:22 PM • top

Rev Ray from the ENS article:

“He said there is “precedent” for putting forth only one name as candidate. In the most recent instance, in 2007, Mark Lawrence was the only candidate to be bishop of the Diocese of South Carolina. Lawrence was first elected from among several candidates on September 16, 2006, but Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori later declared that election “null and void” because of defects in six of the needed 56 affirmative responses from diocesan standing committees. Required to hold a second election, the diocese nominated only Lawrence.”

[16] Posted by martin5 on 03-10-2009 at 05:37 PM • top

I have read most of the controversy and discussion on this “Buddhist/Episcopalian” bishop wannabe, and in truth, the actions FIT what TEC is and has been up to—defining a new Unitarian/Universalist religion, with smells and bells.  I’m surprised that not one person has commented on his priesthood!  According to many posts, pro and con, the man DOESN’T like the Nicene Creed. He changes it to eliminate the sacrifice of Christ on the cross! Didn’t mental alarm bells go off at that point in all you “+” guys (and gals), whether before or after your name?  What is the plege and promise of ANY ordained Episcopalian or Anglican structured around?  The Nicene Creed.  Where is every new convert pointed for a declaration of faith?  The Nicene Creed.  This screams ‘PHONEY’ at me in the loudest possible terms! Now, this also explains why the TEC leadership LIKES him.  Half or more of the EXISTING HOB have admitted to saying the Nicene Creed with their fingers crossed!  He qualifies for the NEW CLUB!  Not the old one…. most of those guys are already in Common Cause somewhere!  But as and ANGLICAN, he just flunked!

[17] Posted by Goughdonna on 03-10-2009 at 05:44 PM • top

#12. Lay observer,
That is an excellent analysis!  I read what you called “speculation” on your part but kept saying this guy is right on after every sentence. You get my “Brain Ten” acknowledgment of the day.
Too bad your Diocese is no longer shacked to TEC since TEC is now self destructing. What Diocese is it by the way? Ours (DSJ)left also but I don’t think TEC paid much attention to us until we left. Now we’re getting lots of attention.
Blessings,

[18] Posted by Fr. Dale on 03-10-2009 at 05:53 PM • top

I agree that Buddhism and Christianity are incompatible and I think this guy is doing no more than a classic dodge-and-weave. 

But, my larger question, if Greg or anyone would like to address it, is what was Northern Michigan’s need to ramrod this election instead of having a traditional one with multiple candidates?

[19] Posted by Passing By on 03-10-2009 at 05:54 PM • top

#19. SW Transplant,

what was Northern Michigan’s need to ramrod this election instead of having a traditional one with multiple candidates?

As a former Michigander this is my best guess. They needed to get it in before the end of snowmobile season and before the start of Deer season. It’s a small window.

[20] Posted by Fr. Dale on 03-10-2009 at 06:01 PM • top

Someone above or on on of the other threads nailed it. It seems like an attempt by TEC to start a new denomination-Unitarian-Universalism, but with smells and bells.

[21] Posted by FenelonSpoke on 03-10-2009 at 06:07 PM • top

I am even more disturbed by the functional stress on ordination to be found in much “Mutual Ministry” practice. Not even the most radical of our Reformers embraced the concept that ordination is merely a recognition by the local community of a call to minister the sacraments.

wvparson, I think you are on to a very big part of the problem up here.  In the local parish, with an ASA of 35, 20%, or 7, are ordained- 4 priests and 3 deacons.  None are paid, none of the priests (and to the best of my knowledge, no deacons) graduated from a seminary.  It may well be that the lay presiders of Sydney are better trained than many ordained priests of N. Michigan. Most are motivated by desperation- knowing that unless they step into these sacramental roles, the parish will be closed down.
  The other great danger to be observed in the process as it has played out here is a sort of theological inbreeding.  In a conventional diocese, a fair amount of new blood comes in as parishes hire new rectors.  In N. Michigan, almost all ministers are “home grown”, most never exposed to seminary life or formation, none with experience of the church outside the diocese.  In addition, here, all the training is controlled by the bishop and the “ministry developers”.  Mr. Forrester has authored much of the training material.  So, if you don’t meet a very tightly controlled, very progressive theological model, you will certainly NEVER be hired as a ministry developer, and you are unlikely to be “discerned” as a candidate for auxiliary ordination by the local ministry discernment process, which is chaired by one of the ministry developers.

[22] Posted by tjmcmahon on 03-10-2009 at 06:07 PM • top

19 and 20-
As explained to me here in the diocese, the reason for ramrodding the election was that if it had been delayed past the 10th of March, the decision would have gone to General Convention, where all we are hearing and reading would have come out on the convention floor. And the convention would have the option of nominating other candidates. Under the regular consent process, they are figuring that 70% of the bishops and standing committees will rubber stamp the guy based on the fact that he is a liberal.
  You know, the same way that Pike, Spong, Bennison and Schori got through.

[23] Posted by tjmcmahon on 03-10-2009 at 06:14 PM • top

I may also be grateful for the light that other religions and philosophies have shed on the nature of human spirituality and God having created us as spiritual creatures. Why make a point of accepting lay ordaination in order to expand one’s ability to experience the benefits of meditation, Christian or otherwise?  It makes one wonder where Fr Kevin’s path was leading.  As an ordained priest where was his bishop when he was seeking to follow this path, simultaneously or otherwise.  Was he reconciled to the church after accepting ‘lay ordaination’ as a Zen Buddhist?  You know we all have to make choices and face consequences.  This begs the question: How can this bishop elect lead his diocese? Where are they going with this Zen Christian spirituality?  Makes it kind of hard for commissions on ministry to help the many candidates who are drawn to Buddhism to discern their calling. I can see many who would point to the fuzziness of this example as a way of avoiding a commitment to Jesus Christ. Are we all to be subject to the identity crisis of bishops who are trying to discern their own personal spiritual path.  There is a point where a leader, if he is to lead, has to make a commitment to the faith of his flock. A bishop is a powerful symbol of our faith.  Confusion abounds when we can’t discern our own faith in our leaders or are subject to one candidate elections.

[24] Posted by Viejo on 03-10-2009 at 08:10 PM • top

In the event Forrester receives enough consents from HoB, TEC right then and there declares and embraces its irreparability.

[25] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 03-11-2009 at 01:00 AM • top

From the Buddhist news channel:

“Buddhism is not merely a series of practices, saying so devalues it. Buddhism is an entire worldview.”

IRD (Institute for Religion and Democracy)President James Tonkowich commented,
“The issue is not whether meditation is good, it is what is being meditated on. Attempts by Christians to be syncretistic devalue other religions, as well as their own.
“If this kind of meditation is truly in the Christian monastic tradition, why do you need to go to Buddhism to find it? The reality is that this particular meditative practice is not in step with Christian doctrine.
“Buddhism is not merely a series of practices, saying so devalues it. Buddhism is an entire worldview.
“These interfaith innovations go far beyond witnessing and respecting other faith traditions. They seek to blend Christianity with other belief systems in a way that ultimately compromises the message of the Gospel.
“While church leaders may respect other faiths, their vow of Christian ordination has always meant an exclusive commitment to Jesus Christ and the Christian faith.”

[26] Posted by Anam Cara on 03-11-2009 at 06:35 AM • top

26-Anam Cara—Please give a link or citation. Those of us trying to sort this out need solid sources.

[27] Posted by Jim Workman on 03-11-2009 at 06:45 AM • top

Jim (#27),

I have located this source:
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/676589526.html

[28] Posted by Athanasius Returns on 03-11-2009 at 06:53 AM • top
[29] Posted by Anam Cara on 03-11-2009 at 07:12 AM • top

Very interesting that a Buddhist information outlet cites the IRD article in full, without comment. Is this the sound of one hand clapping?

[30] Posted by Jim Workman on 03-11-2009 at 08:02 AM • top

The Episcopal church has offered him a purple shirt so it seems that is the better “deal” if he has to choose (for the time being) one spiritual road or the other…

[31] Posted by ewart-touzot on 03-11-2009 at 09:23 AM • top

TEC leadership is now in a lose-lose situation. They know if Fr. Forrester gets the consents, the negatives will outweigh the positives. Their “enlightened inclusiveness” will be showcased but their “orthodoxy” will be further ridiculed in the eyes of the AC and in the other churches. If he doesn’t get the consents, it will hearten the conservatives who will push back even harder.
They are now between “The Rock” and a “Hard place”.
My guess is KJS will (has already) discuss(ed) This with Fr. Forrester and suggested they at least redo the nominating process to assuage those folks who are opposed to the process.

[32] Posted by Fr. Dale on 03-11-2009 at 09:45 AM • top

Definition of Yoga: A religiously sophisticated way of playing with yourself.

[33] Posted by ctowles on 03-11-2009 at 10:14 AM • top

Yoga consists of stretching and breathing exercises and can also be a form of relaxation. It does not involve “playing with yourself”.

[34] Posted by FenelonSpoke on 03-11-2009 at 10:17 AM • top

The definition was given to me by a Harvard PHd in Classics. My wife says the same thing as you do though.

[35] Posted by ctowles on 03-11-2009 at 10:36 AM • top

So, if I as a priest in TEC were to attend another Christian body, be received/confirmed/chrismated/welcomed whatever the lowest level of membership might be, let alone ordained, would I be allowed to continue in my cure?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

[36] Posted by Eastern Anglican on 03-11-2009 at 11:25 AM • top

#36, depends on whether they were in sync with the demigods at 815 and the lesser pantheon of the HOB…..

[37] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 03-11-2009 at 02:44 PM • top

#37 <sarcasm on>  I believe you missed my point. Maybe the word another was confusing, but I specifically said a Christian body, without doing finger quotes. <sarcasm off>

In all seriousness, you are correct it is all up to the whims of 815 and its myrmidons.

[38] Posted by Eastern Anglican on 03-11-2009 at 04:11 PM • top

Sorry, I forgot to turn the sarcasm control on and off in my previous post.

[39] Posted by Eastern Anglican on 03-11-2009 at 04:13 PM • top

#39 There were on and off but for some reason did not come through.

[40] Posted by martin5 on 03-11-2009 at 04:20 PM • top

One characteristic of the authoritative personality is the ability to hold contradictory ideas and not recognize that they are contradictory.  The authoritive person adopts the ideas of “authority” wholesale, does not weigh and consider the weight or truth of the ideas, does not compare and contrast the ideas of differing “authorities”.  Christian meditation requires us to weight and consider all things in the light of God’s Word; it engages the mind.  Zen meditation requires the emptying of the mind and seems to make it easier to hold contradictory ideas unexamined.
Frances Scott

[41] Posted by Frances S Scott on 03-11-2009 at 04:55 PM • top

“... You see the idea — the TEC friends touch him on one side and the Buddhists on the other, and he is the complete, balanced, complex man who sees round them all. Thus, while being permanently treacherous to at least two sets of people, he will feel, instead of shame, a continual undercurrent of self-satisfaction.”

[42] Posted by robertf on 03-12-2009 at 07:52 AM • top

Robertf - that sounds like CS Lewis.  Is it?

[43] Posted by AnglicanXn on 03-12-2009 at 08:03 AM • top

Yes (Screwtape). I know Lewis quotes are apt to get overused, especially on a site like this (I know I’m guilty of it). But, damn he’s good. Very prescient.

[44] Posted by robertf on 03-12-2009 at 10:52 AM • top

I’m new here, but would like to respond to a couple of specific things, and look for a measured response, especially from #15, wvparson, and #22, tjmcmahon.
I am a “ministry developer,” in a western Canadian diocese. The bishop is orthodox, I am orthodox, and come with a background of 25 years of ordained ministry in rural churches, and a period as principal of a college that trains evangelists. The ministry unit here is a deanery of 7 churches, which until a few years ago had 4 clergy. My wife and I have been hired as the 2 clergy for this area. We are tasked to develop local ministry teams, which may eventually include a deacon or two, possibly a locally raised up priest, as part of local ministry teams. The training for those moving towards eventual ordination (and other lay ministries) includes oversight by the bishop and diocesan committee on ministry, the deanery council, local vestries, and ourselves as ministry developers, or missioners. We are very aware of how some places ordain barely qualified people (“hedge” or “mass” priests).
Our curriculum for those to be ordained comes from St. John’s College, Nottingham, administered by a grad from there who is also archdeacon in this diocese. In other words, we see the checks and balances in place as we embark on a movement towards full utilization of the gifts of people in their local settings.
I agree with tjmcmahon that it is ridiculous to have 20% of the local ASA ordained as either deacons or priests. This is not what “mutual ministry” is all about, but an abuse of it. And, having had a few years ago a passing familiarity with N. Mich. as well as other rural dioceses, it is easy to see how “theological inbreeding” happens, using only the “home grown”. Add a heretical ministry developer/bishop-elect, working his way into the hearts and minds of the locals, without any new blood coming in, and you have a recipe for a real mess. While doing research for the work I am now in, I looked at the N. Mich. website, after a hiatus of some years, and nearly threw up when I saw that it was taken over by new age crap.
Here is my query: with orthodox leadership in place, with proper checks and balances, and with recognizably orthodox curricula, is it possible to fulfil the mandate of fully developing the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the local church, including a possible call to ordination as a deacon or priest. Was Roland Allen wrong? Or, is it all just a liberal plot?

[45] Posted by barthianfinn on 03-12-2009 at 12:51 PM • top

TEC ought to accept Forrester as a “bishop” because he represents their direction and purpose, which is to have nice buildings and music and be “inclusive” by believing in nothing.

[46] Posted by Scott Boykin on 03-12-2009 at 01:16 PM • top

Dcn Dale: My diocese is Quincy, where we’re expecting a full-frontal assault from TEC shortly after April Fool’s Day, when the P.B. herself is coming to town (with her lawyers no doubt) to join the other pseudo Unitarians of the new, self-styled Episcopal Diocese of Qunicy’s first synod. If you go to their website (you can find it on Google) and check out the members, you’ll notice that many of them are from other states. It’s nice to know that so many Episcopalians suddenly feel themselves to be spiritually resident in Western Illinois. Buddhists included. - MR

[47] Posted by Lay observer on 03-12-2009 at 01:46 PM • top

#47,
I am from the FW Diocese. Prayers to you and your Diocese.

[48] Posted by martin5 on 03-12-2009 at 02:58 PM • top

#47. Lay observer,

If you go to their website (you can find it on Google) and check out the members, you’ll notice that many of them are from other states.

Is this like the Episcopal version of “Acorn”?

[49] Posted by Fr. Dale on 03-12-2009 at 04:57 PM • top

“The Episcopal church has offered him a purple shirt so it seems that is the better “deal” if he has to choose (for the time being) one spiritual road or the other…”

I am assuming he did a quick head count of the number of TEC Bishops driving Caddies and dining at Four Seasons—as opposed to the number of Buddhist monks exhibiting the same behaviour—and made a very pragmatic decision in terms of financial stability.

[50] Posted by The Pilgrim on 03-12-2009 at 06:31 PM • top

Barthianfinn (45)-
Coming from a small parish background myself (I am not in orders, just a layman), before I came here I had some contact with “mutual ministry”, but in a sense more like you describe.  I was a “lay eucharistic minister” (which is to say, chalice bearer, lest anyone think I mean lay presidency) and lector (this latter hardly considered a ministry in many parishes, in the modern day, anyone without bad stage fright is a lector), and led a parish bible study and served on the vestry.  Several others also filled these roles, as well as eucharistic visitors.  The “priest in charge” was a retired priest who had happened to move to town after his retirement.  The parish never considered asking the bishop to ordain anyone. 
You are correct in your perception that the concept has been abused in N. Michigan.  Prevention of such abuse would need to rely (for whatever my opinion is worth) on three things.  First, no one should be ordained who would not be ordained anyway.  Which is to say, a person should never be ordained because the parish needs a priest.  A person should be ordained because they are a worthy candidate for ordination.  Second, just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they are not a “real” priest. But in order to be effective, they need to be equipped for the job priests do- which is a very great deal more than saying mass on Sunday, as no doubt you know better than I.  One of my problems here (as an Anglo Catholic) is that there is no one to hear my confession.  They have no training in or understanding of, the sacrament of reconciliation.  Of course, one of them could listen to me, but that is not the point.  The moment a priest says to me “I really should not be telling you this…” and passes on a bit of gossip about a parishioner, I know that they were not trained as my Dad and others were.
  My third point would be that it is necessary to have as much outside contact as possible.  For example, a rural diocese considering mutual ministry should make every effort to involve any priests retired within the diocese, both as participants in the life of the diocese, and mentors for mutual ministry priests and deacons.  I am tempted to suggest (I do not know if this is feasible) that you might consider using more than one training program.  Several seminaries, for instance, now offer distance education programs.  By having several options, you might actually attract more qualified candidates, because different programs are tailored to different learning styles and schedules.  Speaking for myself, I would not be interested in the sort of “home study course” they do here- I don’t think it prepares people for the priesthood.  But would consider a distance ed program that granted a degree in ministry or theology.  Or perhaps you could work something out with a seminary within, say, a day’s drive, to send your clergy for a week or two in the summer every year for classes and a bit of rejuvenation.
  As I have reminded myself on a couple of occasions, in some ways, mutual ministry is reminiscent of the early days of the Church.  And if you are looking for a “model” of how to do it, look there.  There was a time before parishes and rectories, when the Church was a persecuted society, where services met in homes and shops and basements.  When ALL priests and even bishops had a “day job”, if only to provide cover, as a priest or bishop would be arrested on sight. Virtually no one outside of large cities with wealthy patrons was paid. How did Paul or Timothy or Ignatius select a presbyter for ordination?

[51] Posted by tjmcmahon on 03-12-2009 at 07:51 PM • top

Here is more spinning from Ruth Gledhill in the Buddhist Bishop. Read further down and you can read how this is spinning .....
http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2009/03/we-dont-need-to-talk-about-kevin.html

[52] Posted by martin5 on 03-14-2009 at 01:28 PM • top

Look,I think you are getting this thing wrong!

A coherent Buddhist cannot believe in God—not in any normal sense of the word. He is treating the religion of Buddhism as an instrument with no necessary intrinsic value of its own—for its meditation technique or whatever.

the problem with this guy, if you have read his very short book—and there is NO excuse if you have not—is that he is a Panentheist, like Marcus Borg.

A Buddhist is not a Panentheist.

The problem is that panentheism is inconsistent with any credible reading of the Nicene Creed, and it wold surely seem to be inconsistent with the worship of the BCP 79—or any BCP from the past. 

On his so-called buddhism: it is not the real thing. he is using it to dress up his Panentheism, b/c—it seems to me—panentheism does not have a tradition of worship of its own.

[53] Posted by The Anglican Scotist on 03-14-2009 at 01:30 PM • top

And that’s my opinion: the issue is panentheism.

[54] Posted by The Anglican Scotist on 03-14-2009 at 01:33 PM • top

#52. martin5,

From my own small experience of Buddhist techniques of meditation, of knowing how to remain ‘still’, ‘centered’ yet wide awake and alert for hours upon end, I’d have thought a bishop who could do that would be perfect in such a diocese.

Ruth Gledhill strikes me as more of a gossip columnist/PR person than a serious columnist on Religion. Where is the balance in this report? It’s the typical liberal dodge to say that this is the small potatoes that conservatives focus on in comparison to rape, murder and mayhem that is really important.

[55] Posted by Fr. Dale on 03-14-2009 at 08:08 PM • top

Dcn Dale, my point was how this is starting to be spun. The Zen Buddhist meditation is not the issue but yet may become the focus. To me the real issue is what this priest has said, taught, preached, written as a priest in TEC.
This is what I wrote on another thread. I read the entire article:

Okay I read it. Some bad points, some good points until ... He says this,
“ Sin has little if anything to do with being bad. It has everything to do, as far as I can tell, with being blind to our goodness.”
Sin, according to the Oxford Dictionary:
1. the breaking of a religious or moral law; an act which does this.
2. a serious fault or offense
3. something contrary to common sense
I think this is just another point on why this man should not be a bishop.

[56] Posted by martin5 on 03-14-2009 at 08:40 PM • top

#56. martin5,
I understand and agree with your point and I also agree with the Anglican Scotist that Forrester is also a pantheist. Forrester is like TEC, a blended mish mash of heresys. I have said enough about Forrester and just wanted to comment on the link you posted to Ruth Gledhill’s column. Some of the articles she has posted are a poor excuse for professional journalism including this PR piece for Forrester.

[57] Posted by Fr. Dale on 03-14-2009 at 09:00 PM • top

the problem with this guy, if you have read his very short book—and there is NO excuse if you have not—is that he is a Panentheist, like Marcus Borg.

No, the problem is that he is a panentheist like…. John Macquarrie. Prof. Steve Smith at Trinity in Ambridge argued for years that Macquarrie was a panentheist. And Macquarrie’s Principles of Christian Theology was the standard theology textbook in Episcopal seminaries – the “Hall’s Dogmatics” of Anglican liberalism - for the past generation.

Now before I get a raft of protestations that Macquarrie was NOT a panentheist, let it be said that he sure fooled a lot of us. And if we can be fooled, why not Kevin Thew Forrester and the House of Bishops, and Ruth Gledhill?

Since Schleiermacher, liberal theology has been about the task of clothing “the feeling of absolute dependence” with Christian verbiage. Whether it is the gauzy mysticism of Frank Griswold or the jackboot radicalism of Katherine Schori, liberals all share the same starting point: “In the beginning was the hum… or the Om.”

[58] Posted by Stephen Noll on 03-14-2009 at 09:25 PM • top

Dcn Dale,
I totally agree with you.

[59] Posted by martin5 on 03-14-2009 at 09:35 PM • top

Stephen Noll,

Whatever you think of gauze or jackboots, they are in a different category from panentheism I think, inasmuch as neither need strike so near the heart of the traditional faith as panentheism does.

[60] Posted by The Anglican Scotist on 03-15-2009 at 09:00 PM • top

Um, actually I think jackboots are pretty snazzy.  I also like all black uniforms.  Skulls, however, are a fashion accessory I can do with out.

[61] Posted by AndrewA on 03-15-2009 at 09:19 PM • top

<We’ve also documented the problems with Forrester’s nomination process, in which the diocese formed a committee that included Forrester as a member, and then put forth Forrester himself as the only candidate.>

Very convenient, but curious: How is it that liberal revisionists are pro-choice when it comes to abortion, but not (in this case) when it comes to bishops?

[62] Posted by ATraycik on 03-18-2009 at 04:50 PM • top

Oops, I see the the lift from Greg’s piece to which I was responding didn’t carry over into my posting. I was reacting to his notation that:

“We’ve also documented the problems with Forrester’s nomination process, in which the diocese formed a committee that included Forrester as a member, and then put forth Forrester himself as the only candidate.”

Hence my comment:

Very convenient, but curious: How is it that liberal revisionists are pro-choice when it comes to abortion, but not (in this case) when it comes to bishops?

[63] Posted by ATraycik on 03-18-2009 at 04:54 PM • top

Hi All,

I am not sure how to even start so I will just blurt it out.  I have wanted and wanted to believe in God and Jesus but the people I have talked to about it and the evidence is just not there.  I was brought up with only a one week summer school bible class and just don’t buy it.

What is ironic is that I need to believe and want to due to my situation.  Please email me for a private conversation.
-Me

[64] Posted by A Guy on 03-20-2009 at 09:29 PM • top

#64. A Guy,

What is ironic is that I need to believe and want to due to my situation.

Congratulations, you are half way there with a will to believe. Prescription: Read the Gospel of John and let God the Holy Spirit speak to you.
Blessings,

[65] Posted by Fr. Dale on 03-21-2009 at 06:24 AM • top

To A Guy: Somehow the post I wrote and submitted in reply to yours yesterday never got posted, so I’m trying again!

There are some written works that may help you, such as C. S. Lewis’ The Case for Christianity. And I do think that science and faith are converging, slowly but surely. I think of prominent British scientist Antony Flew - a longtime atheist - who (if memory serves) shocked colleagues a few years ago by concluding, based on accumulated scientific data, that some sort of intelligent actor is behind the existence of humanity and the rest of the physical world.

Still, I think faith, by its very nature, remains a big challenge, sometimes as much for the longtime churchgoer as for the potential new believer. There are some obvious difficulties in getting earthly/physical proof of a heavenly/spiritual reality! And whereas, in science, one normally obtains proof before making a conclusion, faith seems to work in the opposite way. In my experience, faith normally must be exercised in some manner before it is confirmed.

But the scriptures show us that Christ meets each person where he/she is at the moment, and goes from there. And as another correspondent said, you are halfway home because of your willingness to believe.

My recommendation is that you attempt to speak honestly to God. Perhaps, approaching Him in Jesus’ name, you could say something to the effect that you want to be able to believe in Him and His Son as Savior; that you are sorry and want forgiveness for your sins, and that you need help with your situation. And if He’s really there, will he help you find convincing belief in Jesus and receive Him into your heart to change your life?

My inclination would be to repeat this prayer (or whatever wording feels comfortable to you) several times, and undergird it with daily scripture readings, asking the Holy Spirit to illuminate the readings for you. The Gospel of John, suggested by the earlier poster, is a good place to start.

I hasten to add, though, that I am a laywoman. So I appeal to clergy to amend my guidance in any manner they feel is appropriate. Meanwhile, I’ll be praying for you, “A Guy”!

[66] Posted by ATraycik on 03-22-2009 at 03:54 PM • top

Since TEC is no longer concerned with adhering to any part of scripture, there’s room for everyone under the “Big Top”.
Now, it’s become just an endless parade of circus performers and clowns.

[67] Posted by Laytone on 03-30-2009 at 05:51 PM • top

Trinity in New York did a clown Eucharist a couple of years ago .. so you are closer to reality than you think. I don’t think it went over too well for I have not heard of one since.

[68] Posted by martin5 on 03-30-2009 at 06:26 PM • top

I get very frustrated with this “helpful meditation from other traditions” mantra.  Christianity has its own rich strains of meditative and contemplative traditions from both east and west. 

I’m not sure why we see this compusion to look elsewhere when one could spend a lifetime mining any one of our own veins.

Islandbear+

[69] Posted by Islandbear on 04-04-2009 at 03:12 PM • top

Thanks, Islandbear-A number of us have made the same comment. I am really surprised that educated clergypeople didn’t know or didn’t take the time to investigate within their own tradition. It’s either irresponsible or ignorant.

[70] Posted by FenelonSpoke on 04-04-2009 at 03:34 PM • top

Could all this ‘ducking and weaving’ lately by KTF be nothing more than him feeling that his new better paying gig (not to mention perqs) was slipping from his fingers before he was even on board?  Could it be this simple?

[71] Posted by doogal123 on 04-10-2009 at 12:32 PM • top

Betrayal ?  Deceit ?  Theology Based on Rod McKuen ?

Here’s a comment I made on another thread that raises a Buddhist critique of the Zen Bishop’s theological/philosophical/life-style peregrinations:

“A couple of weeks ago,in Barbara’s Buddha Blog a Soto Zen Buddhist critique was raised about Thew-Forrester’s apparent trivialization/misunderstanding/whatever of the Zen denomination in which he believes he was ordained.

Here are some excerpts:

  There are aspects to this story that may be of concern to Soto Zen and, by extension, all of western Buddhism.

  There’s nothing at all controversial about someone practicing zazen in the context of another religion. Since zazen is not a meditation or contemplation of texts or doctrines, zazen practice alone presents no doctrinal conflicts to the non-Buddhist practitioner.

  However, lay ordination (jukai) is another matter. Jukai usually is understood to be about becoming a Buddhist.

  The ceremony includes taking the Refuges and the Four Bodhisattva Vows and receiving the Precepts. The person being ordained receives a dharma name and a rakusu, which represents the robe of the Buddha.

  The Rev. Forrester has been describing his ordination as a “welcoming ceremony” that didn’t include oaths, which
made me wonder if he had received jukai at all.

  But he did get the dharma name (Genpo) and a rakusu.

  Although his description of the jukai ceremony leaves out the Refuges, the Rev. Forrester describes receiving the
Precepts (which he likens to the Boy Scout laws) and says he took only one vow, “to save all beings,” one of the
Four Vows:

      Beings are numberless. I vow to save them.
      Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them.
      Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them.
      Buddha’s way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it.

  I must conclude that the Rev. Forrester either received a watered-down jukai, or he is being extremely disingenuous
about jukai.

  If the latter, perhaps at the time (this was several years ago) he was seriously considering taking the
Buddhist path and since changed his mind.

  And that’s fine, but I think it would be more honest, and more respectful of Buddhism, if he publicly un-vowed himself rather than belittle jukai.

  Buddhism is not a Boy Scout troop.

  Which brings me to the issue that needs to be discussed. Are we western Buddhists so eager to make Buddhism “western-friendly” that we’re making it frivolous?

  It’s fine to keep Zen temple doors open to anyone wishing to learn zazen. But imagine the splash it would make if a prominent Buddhist were baptized and took Christian communion, and then declared that those things have nothing to do with being Christian.”

 


So, it looks like the Episcopal Church isn’t the only denomination losing the battle to the religious existentialist (I know that’s kind of an oxymoron, but that’s apparently the only way sophisticated Christian theologians could convince themselves it was OK to mumble their way through a liturgy whose tradition and aesthetics they enjoyed while not having to believe any of its content) !

[72] Posted by Dharma Bum on 04-21-2009 at 08:54 AM • top

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