Rejoice Little Ones, the problem has been solved by your bishops

The Episcopal Church method; Just lift the edge of the carpet, take the broom and sweep it under.  There, problem all gone. Out of sight out of mind. Bishops just avoid issues at the direction of the Queen of Darkness.
Her housekeeping has split the family.

Matt+ over at Episcopal Cafe, they have further details about what Little said about Kevin Thew Forrester’s election.  So sad:

Bp Ed LIttle, of Northern Indiana reflected on the retreat aspect of the meeting and the tenor of the meeting as one of respectful listening. Bishop Little said that there was a discussion of the issues surrounding the bishop-elect of Northern Michigan. He felt that all questions were thoroughly raised and answered. He especially noted the answers given by those bishops who had been advisers to the Northern Michigan process, Bp. Bruce Caldwell of Wyoming and Bp Tom Ely of Vermont.

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/bishops/fear_not_bishops_issue_pastora.html

Of course, I suppose the questions could have been “fully answered” and Little might disagees with the answers.  But given the context, it doesn’t sound like he has a problem with Forrester’s election.

Yes Karen and

1. Little is the same “orthodox” bishop who acted as the PB’s point man seeking full inclusion for VGR at Lambeth

2. Forrester’s errors have been publicly documented…we need a little more than Bishop Ed Little’s “satisfaction” to go on

3. Has Forrester recanted: a. his panentheism b. his rejection of the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity c. his soteriological errors (redemption = coming to an awareness that we are, like Jesus, God)?

If Forrester gave anything short of #3 above then, in fact, he has not addressed the questions that have been raised.

Matt I agree with you.

I wonder if there’s any SF reader here from the Dio. of Northern Indiana who would send Forrester’s Trinity sermon posted here at SF to Bishop Little?  I suppose it’s possible he hasn’t seen it.

I imagine the “questions” asked by the other bishops, with perhaps a few exceptions, weren’t too focused on heresy.  Perhaps +Little needs to ask Forrester some harder questions.

I can’t help but wonder if some of the push-back from the left is because the right initially raised the alarm.  After years of conflict, it is easy for us, on both sides, to have knee-jerk reactions.  I hope they will pause long enough to read the Trinity Sunday sermon.

It is comic the way the bishops congratulate themselves after their meetings for “profoundly listening” to each other.

“The great thing is, we profoundly listened to each other.  No, really, it was profound listening.”  I’ll tell that to my clients next time I make a mistake.

“Mr. client, I am so glad I had this chance to profoundly listen to you.  We didn’t achieve what you wanted, but I thought it was wonderful how I listened profoundly to you whine incessantly about it.”

Matt—on your #3, point 3a, Make that monism. Several of Thew Forrester’s statements sound like “all is one; one is all.” Pan-en-theism still has God different from creation. All things are in God. Anaximander, in ancient Greek philosophy, had the sophisticated idea of the One as ‘the undefined infinite.’ Sounds almost Buddhist!

P.S. I picked up the possible monism link to KTF from another commenter somewhere.

Hi Gator,

Reading his sermon I think I’ll stick with Panentheism. Look at his redefinition of the Trinty—there is God (distinct) and then “Us” and then the “Spirit who helps us give back to God”. So while God is part of creation (as in monism or flat pantheism) he is also distinct from it in the sense that you still have to relate to him. You are, according to Fr. Forrester God and yet you must still give back to God.

Some things ought to not be listened to…especially heresy.

Matt—I see your point. But then, pan-en-theism is well tolerated in TEC. I hope we hear from some CP bishops who tell us they raised some serious theological questions about your other points. I’m not holding my breath.

Bishop Little is so firmly fixed on the fence that a dozen men with crowbars couldn’t get him off. I’m so grateful to know that my bishop sang Kum Ba Yah with the heretics and that they all really listened to each other.

Another revealing quote from the ENS press release:

Edwards described the dilemma of exercising ‘gracious restraint’ in same-sex blessings while cross-jurisdiction interventions continue, including in his own state of Nevada. “There will probably be some move to repeal the ‘restraint’ resolution to comply with the moratoria at General Convention this summer,” he wrote. “What to do?”

Jefferts Schori and other bishops at the media briefing said the issue was not discussed at any plenary session. “We had a brief conversation, about one-half hour total, about communion-wide issues that will be in the mix at General Convention,” she said.

Nothing to see here—just Anglican Communion concerns—move along.

Another rich one:

The meeting “showed a church that has moved beyond strife and (that is) getting ready for the next phase of our mission in the world and the country,” said Bishop Tom Shaw of Massachusetts.

Moved beyond strife? It’s kind of shocking when clergy tell whoppers like that, isn’t it? But maybe humpteen law suits have taken on the patina of everyday routine for TEC.

It does no good to ‘profoundly listen’ if one is profoundly deaf.

LOL’ “It does no good to profoundly listen if one is profoundly deaf.” LOL

I hope they will pause long enough to read the Trinity Sunday sermon.

#5 Jill woodliff,
Though I agree with your statement as a whole this one particular sentence above hit cord. Even if one pauses long enough to read something does not mean that their hearts are open to understanding. I fear that harness of hearts, blindness due to participating in sin and wrong teachings have occurred to the point that nothing at the moment can penetrate them. God has allowed their hearts to harden and they have for too long, sadly! But, miracles do happen and we must continue to pray for one for their eternal lives are at stake.

I’m ACNA, so not my church any longer, but think about it for a minute—shouldn’t orthodox Episcopalians be more upset if there had been extensive discussion of Forrester?  Strikes me that the correct procedural posture is for the HOB and national church bodies NOT to interfere with standing committee decisions (see, e.g., South Carolina).  Otherwise, they would be (once again) violating the canons.  So right now, we’re in a “quiet period,” to borrow a term from securities law.  Sure, it would be nice if they had taken a firm stand against Forrester, but that’s not going to happen.  At the same time, I hope that the orthodox bishops privately took their colleagues aside to explain the many problems with Forrester’s theology and the implications for his consecration.

Gator writes, “I hope we hear from some CP bishops who tell us they raised some serious theological questions about your other points.”

Ed Little IS a CP bishop!

Is it smug to say that ‘we listened deeply?’

“Respectfulness”??????
C’mon guys, at least have the decency to allow our language to remain unsullied

What an incredible performance by the Bishops: singing kumbiya together, performing the circle dance of the fairies, emphasising gracious restraint, and recognizing the inclusivity of Episcopal-Buddists and Episcopal-Moslems. Ah, the shear joy of it all.
Just one more reminder, amongst thousands, of why we left the insane asylum 30 years ago for traditional Anglicanism. It was the best decision we made for our children, and for our family.

“but think about it for a minute—shouldn’t orthodox Episcopalians be more upset if there had been extensive discussion of Forrester?  Strikes me that the correct procedural posture is for the HOB and national church bodies NOT to interfere with standing committee decisions (see, e.g., South Carolina).  Otherwise, they would be (once again) violating the canons.”

Um no. Apples and oranges. Forrester is a heretic who could if consecrated lead hundreds of people into eternal damnation. Mark Lawrence is the opposite. So, excuse my French, but canons be damned.

Gee, what do you think all this Kum-Ba-Ya stuff cost? They could have sued many more churches with that money.

I just tried to search for Forrester’s sermon on DioNoMi’s site, but couldn’t find it.  I’d like to read it if someone finds it.

Modest mystic, if you are talking about his Trinity sermon it is posted in full on Stand Firm…its the present feature

Thanks, Fr. Kennedy.  I missed it.  I’ll go check it out now. 

I would think that Fr. Dan is trying to figure out how to rid himself from that Wedgie growing between his cheeks. Leaves +JDS Catholic defender and joins Bp. Quisling…
Intercessor

Moved beyond strife?

Episocospeak for “empty pews…”
Intercessor

Episocospeak

Yeah ...I mis-spelled… I will try listening harder next time!
Intercessor

“It is comic the way the bishops congratulate themselves after their meetings for “profoundly listening” to each other.”

No, what’s comic (or better ironic) is that so many who claim to have left the Episcopal Church, who claim to want nothing to do with the Episcopal Church, who find nothing of value in the Episcopal Church, who have no respect for the Episcopal Church, who can’t wait for the parallel universe of the North American “province” still believe that anything they have to say about the Episcopal Church means anything to anyone except themselves.  What gnashing of teeth.

So I am guessing that there has not been an opposing response…like at the end of a State of the Union Address?  What did the handful of Windsor/Ex-ACN/Covenant/Communion Partner bishops have to say or do???  Or have they been taught their place by their more powerful bretheren and sisteren…???

oikoshi, your presumptions take you too far. Many of us here are still Episcoplian.

I can’t help but wonder if some of the push-back from the left is because the right initially raised the alarm.  After years of conflict, it is easy for us, on both sides, to have knee-jerk reactions.  I hope they will pause long enough to read the Trinity Sunday sermon.
[5] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 03-19-2009 at 06:51 AM • top

Jill, You still don’t get it do you?

There is no turning back for true believers, these people are Trotskyists and SRs (Social Revolutionaries).

They despise Jesus, and you too.

That, IMO, is part of the problem-that some people who are a currently part of The Episcopal church and have no problems with it-say that the complaints of others who are upset about the drift to Unitarianism and other issues don’t matter. That “doesn’t mean anything to anyone except themselves” could indicate a theological smugness and a desire to listen only to themselves while the church engages in lawsuit after lawsuit and millions join Anglican churches that are not part of TEC.

BTW, You don’t have to listen to me either because I’m not Episcopalian. I have Episcopal friends, however, and I see the church coming apart while they “profoundly listen”-to the people with views that mirror their own.

#30 oikoshi, what is posted here obviously means enough to you that you:

1. read some postings,

2. registered so you could comment,

3. logged in, and

4. posted a comment.

Thanks for demonstrating that you care what is posted here.

Moved beyond strife?

If that was true, who WASN’T there?

oikoshi,
Just because some of us have left the TEc institution doesn’t mean we don’t still care for the souls who stayed and the wider communion who are yoked to this institution that we are all connected to through Jesus Christ our Risen Lord and Savior.

Yes…as one in ACNA, I still am in communion with conservatives in TEC through the “back door” of AAC, FiFNA…and The “ACN”...whatever that one is anymore.  But it still chaps me as a Christian to see a heretic majority of TEC shepherds deceive, fleece, and eat their sheep.  Just cuz I left doesn’t mean I don’t have a heart.

#33, I think I do get it.
1.  The Trinity Sunday sermon shows that the consents to the election of Rev. Forrester is a “Who do you say that I am?” decision.
2.  I can’t think of anything that would accelerate the acceptance of the ACNA into the Anglican Communion faster than the consecration of a Buddhist.
3.  Yet the conservative blogs have been the ones to raise the alarm about the consents process because this is an Ezekiel 33 moment, and the fate of eternal souls is far more important than a political advantage.
4.  Most of our opponents will be unfazed by our pleas (2 Thessalonians 2:10-11).
5.  But if through a gentle voice, one person comes to recognize what is at stake, then the angels in heaven will rejoice.

Wonderful thoughts, Jill.

And to continue your excellent application of what the Bible has to say, Christian leaders and teachers must speak to those who are ignoring us: II Timothy 2:25-26.

Ho hum…. another happy clappy TEC love fest. So far, there hasn’t been a problem with bishops committing serial marriages and adultery-homosexual and heterosexual, leading prayers to pagan idols, participating in sadomasochist festivals, prancing in GLBT parades, ignoring homosexual harassment, allowing child molesters to lead retreats,  various acts of blasphemy…. the beat goes on. Yawn. Don’t expect Ed Little to give up his life long dream of being a TEC bishop.

<blockquote>“We listened profoundly to one another and to God”<blockquote>

And like all disobedient children, full of themselves and their own worldview, the Parent’s voice went in one ear and out the other.  I just hope they listened to one another a hell of a lot better than they list to the Almighty. 

KTF!...mrb

39+40
Thank you Jill and Fr. Timothy.  The danger I find myself facing is losing perspective entirely- becoming so fixed on the battle that one forgets why he is fighting it.

I wonder about other CP thought on the Forrester debacle-to-be.  Is Bp. Little’s position representative of the Communion Partners as a whole?  If so, the CP strategy is being exposed for the front for TEC heresy that it has appeared to be.

Just wondering…

Which bishops are CP? I keep forgetting.

#30. oikoshi,
I have frequently heard that those who have left should just mind their own business and shut up and that they no longer have the right to comment about TEC affairs. This betrays a ubiquitous attitude within TEC that it is autonomous. TEC remains a constituent member of the AC and continually asserts it’s collective will via its heretical actions with essentially no concern for the AC. At this level, as a member of an AC Province (Southern Cone), I believe my input is warranted. There is an additional matter of the church universal. Does the Bishop of Rome also have no right to offer corrective feedback? If TEC wants no input from the outside then break with the Anglican Communion and be free of the shackles of Orthodoxy. This whole listening process of TEC has simply become an incestuous tower of babble. I am disgusted.

Actually all Christians have an interest in what is going on in TEC because:

1.  There are still actual Christians in the organization.

2.  TEC is a case study of what happens to a church that gives way to epistemological skepticism.

3.  This same conflict is being repeated in all the established churches across Christendom.

I would say here that skepticism is gaining the upper hand in the fight in these churches but that isn’t really true.  It’s gaining the upper hand in the culture at large, and these churches are following the crowd, so to speak.  The liberal churches have become content to follow after the great secular caravan, and bleat “Me too.”  But who really pays attention to them anymore ... besides the conservative opposition, I mean? 

Liberals should be grateful conservatives pay them attention.  If it wasn’t for us, liberal religion would be completely invisible.

carl

I think this is just the latest way to tweak us, to drive by and say, “why do you care, blah blah blah”. Why should people like the one who posted above want us not to care? How does it affect them? Enough to make them read and post here? I think the answer is that this is just another form of baiting for a drive by.

Which bishops are CP? I keep forgetting.

Unfortunately, it seems some of the CP bishops themselves forget from time to time.

That’s probably why I’m confused, TJ. :-(

These meetings are fixed before the meetings take place.  We should care, and note, the total uselessness of them.  We should also note the ridiculous statements of self-congratulating bishops. 

Let’s face it, we would not have such a group of twiddlers if they had been held to the fire years ago.  We all know it is too late to change them now.  The bishops are not bound by doctrine, and this is useful for the real political activists in charge at 815.  Such monumental wastes of carbon on meetings such as these do nothing but strengthen 815.  815 has all the votes they need, and they know it.  In this church, it is votes, not doctrine that win the day.

This story is extremely amusing.  I “listened profoundly” to it too, while I was snickering.

Jefferts Schori also expressed “great sadness” when asked about a March 11 letter by former Southern Virginia Bishop David Bane, notifying the church he had joined the Anglican Church of North America and intends to serve as its assistant bishop in the Diocese of Pittsburgh.

“I have not seen the letter yet,” the Presiding Bishop said, adding, “We discussed it in a pastoral way.”

Snif, snif….I profoundly listened to Kate’s “great sadness.”  I’m glad to hear she discussed it “in a pastoral way.” 

The meeting “showed a church that has moved beyond strife and (that is) getting ready for the next phase of our mission in the world and the country,” said Bishop Tom Shaw of Massachusetts during a post-meeting telephone briefing with members of the media.

Perhaps Kate will overcome her “great sadness” at the faithful bishops’ departure for ACNA now that she owns the the HOB, which has “moved beyond strife” because they are gone.

Has anyone else heard the rumors (perhaps) that certain liberal bishops spoke out against Forrester’s squishy theology at the HOB meeting? SW Virginia bishop sent word to clergy that Bishops Atlanta and SoOhio were both critical of his theological views.