Katherine Ragsdale Selected as New President and Dean of EDS

Ah, well I have no doubt that she will do for EDS what she has done for <a >St David’s</a>.

“The Episcopal Church: Come Watch Us Grow”.

“I took vows,” Ragsdale said.

I took those vows, too.  Nowhere in the vows I took did I promise to murder or to aid another person in murdering an innocent child.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

Here’s her sermon blog.

In the most recent entry is this notation about the Democrat Convention:

The Democrats have removed “safe, legal, and rare” language about abortion from the platform. About time!

The sermon following that note has to be read to be believed.  I thought I’d seen it all.

http://ragsdalesermons.blogspot.com/

Even more clarity.

so we have yet another “Katherine the Great” elevated within the Episcopal church for their..?

And another stunning victory for the inside strategy.

Just because they can?  Shame has fled the denomination?

KTF!...mrb

As one has been overly frustrated by TEC and the Anglican Communion as a whole and departed, I now believe I am witnessing the Gamaliel solution come to pass.

For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God. (Acts 5)

Declining membership and financial distress, I think pluralism and sexual immorality seems to be a formula God has not approved.

In fairness I am willing to give ACNA the same benefit. Perhaps TEC should as well.

Was reading of her opposing laws against partial birth abortion.

These are the two things I want you, please, to remember – abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.

Connecting the word “blessing” with the word “abortion” will not make it a reality no matter how many times one may repeat it. This is not enlightened thinking, it is vile propaganda.

Dan Crawford—that’s a bit like someone saying about the Sudan “another stunning victory in the Iraq war”.  Who in the inside strategy is “fighting for EDS”?  Please name them quickly so that we can demote them.

Sheesh, Dan—when are you going to get all filled with the joy of the Lord now that you’ve slipped the surly shackles of the wolves in TEC?  Why so bitter at those of us who are quite happily staying inside?

It am always pleased to see post-Christian organizations make self-destructive mistakes, so I am not protesting Miss Ragsdale’s appointment. Congratulations, EDS! Keep on keepin’ on! Go for it!

The Boston Globe article tells it all…
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2009/03/05/preaching_gods_word_with_an_eye_on_national_politics/?page=1

“...her ordination was not without a struggle. One bishop told her he was opposed to women priests. Another told her, ‘I think you’re a lesbian, and I don’t ordain lesbians,’ ” she said.”
“Ragsdale had to go to Newark, N.J., where she was ordained by then-bishop John Shelby Spong,...”

“Today, the 50-year-old has a different job, as executive director of Somerville-based Political Research Associates, a liberal think tank that monitors the intellectual and religious right.”
“The group, founded in Chicago in 1981 and in the Boston area since 1987, has initiated projects to monitor whether America’s antiterrorist policies infringe on immigrants’ and poor people’s civil liberties, for example.
Other projects will investigate anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim sentiment on college campuses, and whether some religious conservatives might be trying to take advantage of disagreements within mainline churches - for example, over gay rights - to limit those churches’ effectiveness, encouraging them to fight among themselves rather than against the religious right.”

She appears highly qualified to lead the next generation of divinity students down the wrong path.

Ohhh…

If you have the heart and stomach to do so, check out her short story, Hannah: http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/Hannah.pdf
Without a doubt the most disturbing piece of fiction I have ever read.

Abortion may account for some of the decline in TEC’s birthrate and church membership. Some of these aborted babies may have become Episcopalians or Christians if they had lived.

“The Rev. Dr. Katherine Hancock Ragsdale, president and executive director of Political Research Associates and vicar of St. David’s Episcopal Church”

A professional dirt digger, how appropriate.  When you Google Political Research Associates you get this site. Looking at its articles says it all.

  http://www.publiceye.org/index.

What an evil, sick, twisted women this person is.  She vomits forth some of the most vile sewage I have ever read.  Having her as a priest let alone as head of a seminary is blasphemy.

“I took vows,” Ragsdale said.

So do members of the Maffia, La Costa Nostra, et al
Yet another brick in the wall reminding us that the old ship of the TEC has burned down to the waterline.  I strongly suspect, short of a “great awakening-style revival”, that the TEC will cease to be (qouting John Cleese) within the next two decades.

Know what, Sarah?  Rationalize it away all you want but the fact that a principal Episcopal seminary thought that hiring this loathsome fraud was a perfectly splendid idea.  As long as you’re an Episcopalian, this is what you’re yoked to whether you like it or not.

This is a repeat of what Dcn Dale wrote, but it needs to be repeated

These are the two things I want you, please, to remember – abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.

I want to thank all of you who protect this blessing – who do this work every day: the health care providers, doctors, nurses, technicians, receptionists, who put your lives on the line to care for others (you are heroes—in my eyes, you are saints); the escorts and the activists; the lobbyists and the clinic defenders; all of you. You’re engaged in holy work.

This is real, satanic evil.

Soooooooooooo,,,,,another stunning recommendation for the inside strategy in TEC.  I’m sorry folks, when termites eat a house to the point it is not safe to stay inside, it is time to go find another house while the old one implodes.

After reading the quotes in DOW’s #21, I really do wonder what could have happened in this person’s life to make her such an eager zealot for the issue of abortion?  Why would anyone embrace it to that degree?

Despite the fact that I pray every day that the Leadership of TEC will realize its error and mend its ways, I have to admit that the elevation of this particular woman to a position of authority such as head of a Seminary is a proposition I find rather frightening.

Here a denomination has come face to face with the purest form of unrepentant evil I can imagine in this day and age, and it has not shunned, nor ignored that evil.  We didn’t even get a “oh, that’s not so bad”. 

What we got was a welcome, ringing endorsement, and embrace of pure evil.

Can’t be too long before our “old men dream dreams, and young men have visions” (Joel 2: 27-29 ESV)

More important than ever to KTF!...mrb

As difficult as it was to read Hannah, as upsetting as it is that this is yet another example of the 2nd and upcoming religion within the Episcopal Church…there are other seminaries that are still orthodox and thank God there are other candidates who still choose to go to those seminaries..to be trained in the Biblical truths so as to be able to go out and lead our remaining remnant…

RE: “Know what, Sarah?  Rationalize it away all you want but the fact that a principal Episcopal seminary thought that hiring this loathsome fraud was a perfectly splendid idea.”

What am I rationalizing, Chris Johnson?  I completely agree—principal Episcopal seminary—check.  Loathsome fraud a splendid idea—check.  So what am I rationalizing, Mr. Johnson?

RE: “As long as you’re an Episcopalian, this is what you’re yoked to whether you like it or not.”

I completely agree.  I’m yoked to TEC.  I’m an Episcopalian.

And ya’ know what, Chris Johnson?  I’m thrilled to be so.

I’ve been saying it for years now.

I.  Am.  Happy. To.  Be.  An.  Episcopalian.

I revel in it and am enjoying my life immensely.

So now I have to ask you the same sort of question I just asked Dan Crawford.

Why are you so angry?  At people like me?  Who are thrilled to be Episcopalian and planning to be so for a long long time.

You’re free, Chris Johnson.  Remember? 

Free—and happy . . . at least . . . that’s what people say. 

So when are ya’ll going to show us all just how happy and joyous it is to be out of TEC?

We’re waiting . . . .

Let us all see how great it is—on the other side . . .

One way for insiders (and outsiders) to protest against this is to start a petition against her appointment.

Those objecting to Obama’s position on abortion have a petition against his speaking at the Notre Dame Graduation Commencement and being given an honorary doctor of law degree.

Another way is to sign the Notre Dame petition which has 215,023 signatures in the week since it was begun.  Non-catholics are welcome to sign:  http://www.notredamescandal.com

Hey Floridian—I think I’d rather Ragsdale be the new President of EDS.

; > )

I think she will do Great Things for EDS.  It will cement EDS as the . . . er . . . Place To Be, so to speak.

No—I look forward to EDS continuing down its present path.  As with two or three other seminaries. . .

Amen, #24 and #25, Mike and ewart-touzot.

Dear Sarah,  I believe we are constrained to speak out against evil…to always resist with words and actions…at all costs.

[drive by comment deleted—commenter warned a second time]

Episcopalian clarity….
Intercessor

No, #31 - we were just overwhelmed with her cooperation with the spirit of Molech, that we clean forgot to give equal billing to her alliances with the spirits of Jezebel and Baal.
Please forgive our oversight.

Projecting again, Sarah?  Who said I was angry?  I was just wondering how someone who claims to be a “conservative Christian” can continue to associate with the Episcopal Organization particularly after TEO hires a monster like Katherine Ragsdale to head one of its principal seminaries?

We know exactly who Katie Rags is, Sue.

Did ya’ll miss the part about Kathering being the first out Dean & President of an Episcopal Seminary?

Why are Espicopalians so preoccupied with sex?
Intercessor

Shalom,
Intercessor

Katherine Ragsdale was the chair of the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, later named the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, at the same time that I was President of NOEL (the National Organization of Episcopalians for Life), now called <a >Anglicans for Life</a>.  The irony that she would become Dean of EDS while I am Dean of Nashotah House is an irony that is too rich for words.  I guess this is more of that “clarity” for which we’ve all been praying.

Robert S. Munday+
<a >Nashotah House</a>

Sarah,
I’m out of TEC and it looks like my parish will be joining the emerging Anglican Church in North America.  I am not happy and full of jay at this.  I grieve at what TEC has become, including my former parish that I loved deeply.  I grieve that by joining a church not recognized by the Anglican Communion (regardless how many “orthodox” provinces of the communion say they recognize it), I will be part of just another continuing church and no longer a part of the third largest family of Christian churches on earth.  I could go on and on.  Circumstances have forced some of us to leave, but that doesn’t mean we are joyful about either the leaving or where we now find ourselves.

evan
Since many of the provinces of the Anglican “Communion” are not in full communion with each other, I would hardly consider it a single church “family”, and therefore not that large.  On the other hand, the number of provinces that will be in full communion with you will result in a very large church “family”.  I’m not sure where it would rank, but it will be above portions of the Anglican Communion actually in communion with each other.

Notable faculty of EDS:
  Joseph Fletcher (1905–1991) was an American professor who founded the theory of situational ethics in the 1960s

  _Carter Heyward’s most distinctive theological idea is that it is open to each of us to incarnate God (that is, to embody God’s power), and that we do so most fully when we seek to relate genuinely to others in what she calls relationality. When we do this, we are said to be ‘godding’, a verb Heyward herself coined.[4] God is defined in her work as ‘our power in mutual relation’.[

#38
Well, I wonder if that will satisfy those dioceses like San Joaquin and Ft. Worth that cited one of the principal reasons they were disaffiliating from TEC as their committment to remaining in the Anglican Communion.  That seemed to be an overriding concern for the Diocese of Pittsburgh when it changed its constitution prior to its departure.  Where are those concerns now?  It also slams the door on such dioceses as Western Louisiana, Albany, etc., who have stated their committment to both orthodoxy and the Anglican Communion.
And how on earth can we call the ACiNA a “church” in a recognizable sense of the word, when AMIA, CANA, the REC, etc, don’t intend to go away and their dioceses (or “networks” in AMIA’s case) will remain distinct despite the geographical chaos that it will impose.  I don’t see the ACiNA being any more a church than the Common Cause Partners was.  An umbrella organization, but not a church.

By the way, sorry for my last being so off topic.

Dean Munday:

That is truly an ironic occurrence, but really, is there a crying need for any more clarity?

RE: “Who said I was angry?”

Heh—it’s my Very Razor Sharp Mind that can pick up even the most delicate and subtle moods . . . not to mention your own sledgehammer ones. 

I guess all that fruit of the Spirit that comes from leaving TEC will show up any year now, and you’ll be able to let go—someday—about others not leaving TEC.  Someday, that is.

RE: “I was just wondering how someone who claims to be a “conservative Christian” can continue to associate with the Episcopal Organization particularly after TEO hires a monster like Katherine Ragsdale to head one of its principal seminaries?”

Since that’s been explained umpteen times on this very blog—you know, the one that’s run by a guy still in TEC, and two others still in TEC, and one still in Australia—I recognize now that that’s a rhetorical question designed to vent. 

Guess “ignorance shall be your punishment.”

Another option might be to decide that I’m not conservative or Christian—and be my guest.  I have no interest in trying to claim anything for you or convince you of it either.  I’m cool with being the “heretical pagan who wickedly stayed inside TEC and didn’t leave like all us other really happy, joyful, peaceful leavers.”

In fact, neither Greg, Jackie, nor I are “conservative Christians.”  We are Wicked Pagans.

Signed,

Wicked Pagan Happy to be in TEC

Hey Evan—you, along with a bunch of other leavers—aren’t the ones always tsk tsking and clucking over an “inside strategy” either and wondering aloud why all the Stayers can’t leave and be just like the Glorious Leavers.

Thank God.

Outline of steps in future development of U.S. Episcopal seminaries:

<ol>
<li>Ensure the Board of Directors has necessary legal control over the institution.</li>

<li>Determine the required future size of the institution.</li>

<li>Sell off redundant elements of the physical plant in order to achieve desired physical downsizing, as determined in step 2, above.</li>

<li>Identify and install the necessary leadership resources to convert the remaining spiritual plant to a spiritual and theological handbasket.</li>

<li>Install leadership resources procured in step 4, above, so that they are in place to accomplish required conversion, and ensure that the institution is “aimed” in the correct spiritual direction to arrive at goal specified in step 6, below.</li>

<li>Take in all theological and ethical mooring lines and give the reconfigured institution a firm, but loving, push in the general direction of Hell.</li>

<li>Monitor progress of the institution on a regular basis, providing any required corrective inputs, until it arrives at destination specified in step 6, above.</li>
</ol>

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

#45-
Now that’s well written-LOL!
Thanks and prayers to you MA…
Intercessor

but really, is there a crying need for any more clarity?

No, James (#42), in fact, I have had about all the “clarity” I can stand.  And I am sure I am not alone.

Robert Munday+

The Rev. Ragsdale may repeat her St.David reccord at EDS. In 2002 St.David had 160 Members, ASA of 65, and Plate & Pledge of $50,000. In 2007 St.David had 85 Members, ASA of 40, and Plate & Pledge of $50,000.    Statmann

[comment deleted—personal insult]

Ragsdale—living up to every caricature ever snickered about Episcopal clergy at cocktail parties.

#44
Sarah,

I envy the Glorious Leavers their joy and relief.  They are obviously devout Christians, but there seems to be a real devaluing of their Anglicanism in many cases, not to mention a strong dose of congregationalism.  If all I wanted was to be in a church that worships the risen Christ and believes the Bible is the word of God written, I could have wandered over to any number of churches that fit that description.  If I wanted to be Anglican but not part of the Anglican Communion, I could go to a continuing church (if there were one close to hand).  If, however, I want to worship as a part of the body known as the Anglican Communion, and partake of valid Sacraments, and worship within the beauty and discipline of the Book of Common Prayer, the options have just shrunk, perhaps to zero (there are no orthodox TEC parishes nearby). So I remain in my (for the time being) Ugandan parish, contributing where I can and praying for a miracle.

# 48
At least the remaining parishioners at St. David’s appear to have stepped up to the “offering” plate!

I have had about all the “clarity” I can stand.

I’ve said this myself, often ...

In other words:

It is ever clearer that TEC as institution has slid precipitously into apostasy.

Leavers are decidedly happy with their having left.

Stayers are [can’t find an appropriate adverb here] content with staying.

Dog bites man.

I hope EDS closes down within the year.

#36 - God bless you!

My apologies to Sarah and others who understood my remark about the “inside strategy” as a personal criticism of them. That was not my intent. I thought I was commenting on the idea that somehow the Episcopal Organization could be reformed from within by the witness of those who remain. I do not believe it can be, and with every passing day, I am even less convinced it can happen without a Pentecost-like miracle. As a Conehead, I do take comfort that my diocese withdrew from TEO, but I understand the desire to remain with the flock. As I explained to a friend, if I were still in the Diocese which was my home before coming to Pennsylvania, I would remain a member of the Organization because I know God would require me to. But by now, I would have alsolost all faith that the institution could be renewed from within. I regret I expressed myself in a way that led some to think I was critical of them. I admire your tenacity and I do believe that God is blessing your ministry. Thank God Jesus saves - not the institution.

Hey Dan—no worries.  Chris Johnson and I carried on the flags of your original point and as with the great preachers and Biblical texts “departed therefrom” . . . [kidding about the great preachers there].

RE: “I thought I was commenting on the idea that somehow the Episcopal Organization could be reformed from within by the witness of those who remain.”

I completely agree—and have for five years—that the Episcopal Organization will NOT be reformed from within by anyone, much less any “witness” of the Stayers.

Why would any one care where someone else goes to church as long as they are nourished?
Sarah..I do not care where you worship. Love God and live another day please.
Intercessor

Whatever, Sarah.  The point is that all the rationalization in the world will not change the fact that you share a “Christian church” with a vile, repulsive monster like Rev. Mengele.  I don’t.  Enjoy.

By the way, I have much more joy today than I had when nearly week, I had to inform my congregation of some new egregious assault on the faith handed on to us. What sadness I experience now (what anger I experience now) comes from the realization that those in our diocese who claimed they were pursuing the “inside strategy” have focused their efforts on filing a lawsuit demanding all the assets of the Diocese. That is a part of the inside strategy that eludes my comprehension.

I meant to write “nearly every week”.

Christopher..Jesus too shared a death with a vile, repulsive thief, and a repentant one, because that is what His Father wanted Him to do…for some of us staying in TEC at this time, is what we feel that we need to do..even with vile repulsive monsters in our midst.

RE: “The point is that all the rationalization in the world will not change the fact that you share a “Christian church” with a vile, repulsive monster like Rev. Mengele.”

Not trying to change that fact, Chris Johnson.  Not one bit.  I post this kind of stuff as much as possible and highlight it to the world.

RE: “I don’t.”

And we can see that you gain immense pleasure and satisfaction out of that. 

RE: “Enjoy.”

Thank you, I am, and quite a lot.

Signed,

The Wicked Pagan Glad To Be In TEC

It’s funny.  Sometimes, I have the impression that no one wants me to remain in TEC, regardless of which side of the theological spectrum they hail from. Yet, God says different.  I don’t know why.  Meanwhile, I think it is important to pray for Rev. Ragsdale . . . you know, that “pray for your enemies” instruction from our Lord.

Dear Heavenly Father, You know their needs, their hopes, their fears, what they hold precious, and what they disdain.  In Your perfect wisdom, bless Rev. Ragsdale and bless Episcopal Divinity School.  Amen.

These are the two things I want you, please, to remember – abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.

I know that DOW and I have previously posted this quote but what I also wanted to point out is this, besides being vile propaganda, is also a form of behavior modification using a variation of the Premack Principle which couples something desirable (Blessing) with something not desirable (abortion)in order to change behavior. She knows what she is doing. This is not a sermon. It is a training session.

Dan Crawford
It is a shame TEC is trying to keep all the property when the Diocese of Fort Worth is allowing the property to stay with those who worship in in them.  Don’t let it keep you down.  Even if TEC somehow wins in court, all they will have is empty buildings (a few with members).  As I mentioned on another thread you would think that a better use of their money would be to spread the gospel.

#64, Jill, May the Divine Shepherd guard and keep you, and all who share your calling, safe as you travel in the valley of the shadow of death. May He bless you, keep you and bring home in the end. May you serve Him faithfully to the end of your days. Amen

#63. Sarah Hey, (AKA The Wicked Pagan Glad To Be In TEC)
Each of us “leavers” who have challenged you on why you stay have had to learn the hard way. Every time you take someone on afresh, I begin to flinch.
Blessings,

Leaving my TEC parish was one of the toughest things I ever had to do.  After struggling with it before GC2003 and even more afterwards and being part of a parish delegation to a rather liberal diocese, I came to the realization that I was being used.  I was being used to show there was still an orthodox minority, my rear and the rears of my family were being used keep ASA counts up.  My money was being used to support diocesan apparatchics (sp?) who were utterly heretical lib-prot political hacks and my monies were being used to support RCRC and this Molech worshipping fraud.  So what do?

All I could figure was to hasten their imminent collapse by leaving.  In many diocese you can stand and shout orthodoxy from the rooftops and they won’t care.  They care about 2 things:  Their agenda and their livelihood.  At this point in the game, the only way to stop the agenda is to stop their ability to propagate it.  Stay if you want, do what you can, but unless you’re in a parish which isn’t giving to the diocese and the national church, you’re feeding the beast and you’ll have to make peace with your support of this baby-killer, not as an exception, but the rule.  The question isn’t as much stay or go, but if you stay, what are you doing about this little piece of death worship?

Simply praying for someone like this who has moved into the Church of Jesus Christ spewing vile excrement into holy hearts, minds and lives IS NOT ENOUGH!!!!

This woman and Spong who spawned her into their vile version of the ‘priesthood’ must be stopped.

Passivity will not defeat the enemy nor please the Lord.

Get out your swords and pens and sharpen them.
Speak up, write, document and publicize her words, talks and short stories. 

Do not only sit and pray.

#70. Floridian,
Easy now, calm down a bit. You’re making William Wallace sound like an appeaser. I think My blood pressure is spiking as I read your posts.
Blessings,

#69.  Which explains why my better half and I left ECR and never once looked back.  No regrets, either!

So she is leaving her old post (PRA) running a politically oriented, leftist think tank devoted to supporting feminism, Marxist dialectical materialism, dedicated abortion, and other socially radical causes. 

She will be taking a new post (EDS) running a politically oriented, leftist think tank devoted to supporting feminism, Marxist dialectical materialism, dedicated abortion, and other socially radical causes.

plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose

Given the “gifts, skills, and experience” of the selectee, the board’s criteria must have been developed by subcontract to an SDS Action Camp.  Rumor has it that Al Franken plans to contest the selection.

; - )

#71 - NO!!!

God forbid that I should ever calm down, grow deaf to the cries of the children being exterminated by these people are still reaching the ears of Amighty God.

God forbid that I should ever be silent again.

May we all be willing to commit ourselves to the sanctity of human life from conception to natural death.

Here is a Prayer of Committment to the Sanctity of Life by Georgette Forney of Anglicans for Life:

Lord God, thank you for creating human life in your image.
Thank you for my life and the lives of those I love.
Thank you for teaching us through the Scripture the value you place on life.
Help me uphold the sanctity of life in my church and community.
Give me the strength to stand up to those forces that seek to destroy the lives of those most vulnerable, the unborn, the infirm and the elderly.
Today, I commit myself to never be silent, to never be forgetful of respectin life; I commit myself to protecting and defending the sacredness of life, according to your will.
Through Jesus Christ our Lord.  Amen.

#70 Floridian,

You are correct about passivity.  Nonetheless, leavers and stayers have been and apparently always will be on separate tracks.  On SF we have seen years’ worth of articles like the one above.  SF has done, and is doing, a superlative job bringing critical issues to light.  Minimally, it is incumbent upon both stayers and leavers to inform all, and I mean ALL, our fellow parishioners of the rampant heresy and apostasy resident within the rank and file leadership of TEC. 

We are to encourage teaching what accords with sound doctrine. 

TEC is hellbent to do the opposite.

This is warfare, plain and simple.

Are we all in the whole armor of God?  Good!

I do wish that we would not lump all the orthodox in TEC into one big pile. There are as far as I can tell three groups:

1. Vichycons…claiming orthodoxy, collaborationists are happy to do the bidding of KJS, 815, and/or whatever local heretic bishop happens to rule their dioceses

2. Communion Partners/ACI/: They are not willing to cooperate or collaborate but tend to favor a more passive “bearing witness” approach to communion conflict and to work within the established ecclesial structures.

3. Resistance insiders: No compromise, no collaboration, and an active campaign to undermine the current leadership of the Episcopal Church using both established structures (conventions, elections, committees) and “civil disobedience” (ie…non-payment of assessments, refusal to grant and/or to attend episcopal parish visitations)

Everyone back to their corners.

I doubt there are many who remain in TEC under a delusion that it will be reformed from within, or even forced to reform from without.  Those that stay these days do so for other reasons.

I only begrudge those that remain in those instances where I feel they are being compromised by doing so.  Ms. Hey or Ms. Woodliff strike me as the type of people that are not bullied easily and who have the wisdom to get out if and when they determine that they are likely to be compromised spiritually.  Those of us that have left must admit that we too have some connection with the apostate TEC, or at least would like to have some connection, through membership in the Anglican Communion.  One potential outcome of the struggle for recognition is the inclusion of both TEC and the ACNA in some type of cousin relationship within TEC, at least temporarily. I frankly doubt that will ever happen because I doubt there will ever be formal recognition of any type of the ACNA from a TEC allied Canterbury. But it’s conceivable.  We should also admit that for many years we rationalized remaining in TEC despite ample evidence of the disobedience of its leadership. 
Everyone back to their corners.

I doubt there are many who remain in TEC under a delusion that it will be reformed from within, or even forced to reform from without. This isn’t 2003. Those that stay at this stage do so for other reasons.

I only begrudge those that remain in those instances where I feel they are being compromised by doing so.  Ms. Hey or Ms. Woodliff strike me as the type of people that are not bullied easily and who have the wisdom to get out if and when they determine that they are likely to be compromised spiritually. 

Those of us that have left must admit that we too have some connection with the apostate TEC, or at least would like to have some connection, through membership in the Anglican Communion.  One potential outcome of the struggle for recognition is the inclusion of both TEC and the ACNA in some type of cousin relationship within TEC, at least temporarily. I frankly doubt that will ever happen because I doubt there will ever be formal recognition of any type of the ACNA from a TEC allied Canterbury. But it’s conceivable.  We should also admit that for many years we rationalized remaining in TEC despite ample evidence of the disobedience of its leadership.

sorry for the double up on the post. dont know what happened.

Fr. Matt,
Did you not leave out the vast majority…those who pew up every Sunday and are totally unaware by either choice or by clergy design of the war within?
My wife took a call from a DOK chapter president from Fr. Rob Eaton’s remaining TEC parish,whose dues had been siphoned of by the Remain Episcopals. She claimed that she had no knowledge of the lawsuits,freezing of funds,and other hostile actions of Jerry Lamb and was quite upset and puzzled to learn such. Apparently they just don’t pass these facts on to the sheep. My wife’s pearl of wisdom to this TEC lifer was “maybe you should talk to FR. Rob!
Simply Amazing.
Intercessor

there is a huge block of people who ONLY come to church on Sundays and maybe they never listen or read any news, or maybe if they do they they discount what they may have heard/read with the thought that the media is biased..(?) They evidently have never considered reading any “church” literature, magazines or on the internet.  They also have never considered going to a convention or being involved in any Bible study groups….voila…some of them are coming to discover that their church is no longer the church they last “knew”.  what to do?

Hey, folks - what does it take to be dean and president of a seminary these days? I mean, from the standpoint of accreditation.

She has a BA from Wm and Mary, an MDiv from VTS, and a DMin from EDS. Whoop-de-doo. (The DMin is not an academic teaching degree.) Does she have any scholarly publications? Time for an accreditation site visit?

Oh, and from the EDS website, a quote from Brett Donham, Chair, Board of Trustees:

With her service as part time vicar of a small parish, Katherine exemplifies the bi-vocational model of leadership that, for many, is the future of the church. Today, approximately 19% of Episcopal parishes are served by part time clergy and there is every indication this number will grow.

Whooooo DOGGIES! Is this the best that they could come up with?

Bwaaa-ha-HAAA.

#81. Ralph,
Unfortunately the further up the food chain you go in Education, the less credentialing you need. A Superintendent of Schools in CA doesn’t even need a teaching credential. Most universities are run by the Provost who generally has academic legitimacy and the President’s roles have now become fund raising/public relations as the primary duties. I don’t know how accreditation works for TEC Seminaries but there must be some kind of oversight. For Public and Private Universities here in California we have both State accreditation CCTC and national agencies (NCATE) and regional agencies (WASC). Maybe someone in the TEC Seminary administration or faculty could help us here.

Ah-hum, just found this comment, dear Deacon Dale:

“Anger is necessary in the fight against evil. St. John Chrysostom said that “he who is not angry when he has cause to be, sins.”

#83. Floridian,
You are who you are and may God richly bless you for it. I just hope I never become the object of your righteous anger.  I can sometimes feel the heat way out here in the Central Valley of CA.

Global warming, courtesy of a hot under the collar Floridian…and certainly many others are equally ‘hot’ so global warming is really the revisionists fault.

#76 Matt
The orthodox clergy in Pittsburgh who remained in TEC have by and large been co-opted into being VichyCons in order to survive. In a word they were forced to trade their theological heritage for power and, at least for now, control of their new diocese of Pittsburgh.  Like Dan Crawford I am deeply saddened and quite perplexed that my one-time friends would be suing us.

What this woman says is IMHO satanic evil - I can’t believe that anyone who is Christian could regard abortion as a blessing when “a woman becomes pregnant within a loving, supportive, respectful relationship; [and she] has every option open to her…”.

That this woman is a minister is bad enough, but now she’s to be the president and dean of a _seminary_!?

I’m Catholic, so I don’t have a dog in the “should I stay - should I go” fight, but I know I could not be part of a religious organisation that institutionally promoted abortion and homosexuality as blessings. Sure, there’s crazy old uncles in every organisation and church, but this woman is being given a huge position of responsibility and clout. It’s a positive endorsement of evil.

I had hoped there would be some reflection about the difficulties of moral theology surrounding abortion. Here, as elsewhere, it is rarely (though sometimes) a choice between good and evil—but among goods or between evils.

I assume some here remember the evil effects of our country’s earlier criminalization of abortion. There were terrible, terrible tragedies including death to innocent young women that stemmed from their attempts to save their own lives after medical complications from an unwanted or even wanted pregnancies, from the filthy conditions of the rooms where abortions were done, and from the lives spent by poor women rearing the offspring of rape and incest.

Is all of life sacred? Yes. Does that value ever come in conflict with other moral values? Most certainly. Does the life of the mother have equal weight to that of an unborn fetus? Probably more weight (and those conflicts do occur on a regular basis). Is it helpful to use the language of “spewing evil” as used in this string? Absolutely not. 

I hope, in the interest of clarity and truthfulness, that Dean Munday or others will post the official position of the Episcopal Church on abortion. I believe that if that statement is taken fairly, much of bile here will disappear.

On top of all that, to initiate a full attack on one more woman in the leadership of the Episcopal Church falls way short of charity as well as of a reasonable assessment of her ministry through the years.

The “poor women rearing the offspring of rape and incest” have another choice besides rearing these children themselves.  There are many childless couples in this country who would love to rear these children.

The official position of the Episocopal church on abortion is that it’s a fine option for those who choose it.  This is, however, not the position of the BIble.

#88. TBWSantaFe,

to initiate a full attack on one more woman in the leadership of the Episcopal Church falls way short of charity as well as of a reasonable assessment of her ministry through the years.

Of the 88 postings thus far, Tom you are the first to support Katherine Ragsdale. Is it just a quirk of this stratified sample of humanity that no one could support her and that you are the first? I hope you at least read all the posts. For someone who can muster sympathy for her, how about the rest of us? Can you see our point also? If not then why even bother stopping by?
Regards,

As a Catholic I’m glad I belong to a Church that doesn’t dehumanize the unborn. I find the official position of TEC on abortion immoral.

When someone suggests abortion as a “blessing” despite a woman’s ability to nuture and rear that person - that is evil. I can understand (although not agree) with women who feel forced into abortion due to poverty, rape, or other horrible circumstances, but Ragsdale’s position goes far beyond that.

Ragsdale would have pro-life doctors, nurses and pharmacists get out of the job altogether if they were unwilling to kill the unborn. Those that do kill the unborn are “saints” in her lexicon.

“Thou shall not kill” isn’t rocket science.

Heart: I beg you to read the statement rather than to intuit what it might say.

Dcn Dale.  I believe the postings here that are free from sarcasm do represent part of the truth about abortion. They do not represent the whole truth about abortion—and the moral absolutism in so many of the posts detract from that part of the truth they would otherwise represent.

Secondly, Katharine Ragsdale’s character and career are not well or fairly represented in this rapid-response. That thirty people participate in that does not make it right or responsible. I am happy to be in this minority.

Sarah- I am elated you are happy. Peace to you. I haven’t read all of the posts, but aside from Ms Ragsdale’s enthusiasm for killing babies, what pray tell are her qualifications for being dean of a seminary? Just curious.

TBW,
The woman in question claims

And when a woman becomes pregnant within a loving, supportive, respectful relationship; has every option open to her; decides she does not wish to bear a child; and has access to a safe, affordable abortion – there is not a tragedy in sight—only blessing.

That is calling evil a blessing.
Murder at a whim is not defensible.
Even you will have a difficult time blathering your way around her statement.

If she will not repent of calling murder a blessing, she should be denied communion, publicly denounced, shunned, and cast out.

RE: “but aside from Ms Ragsdale’s enthusiasm for killing babies, what pray tell are her qualifications for being dean of a seminary?  . . . “

Ah no, not the right question at all.  Instead it should be “but aside from Ms Ragsdale’s enthusiasm for killing babies, what pray tell are her qualifications for being dean of EDS?”

And I assure you that Katherine Ragsdale and EDS are beautifully suited for one another.  She will be marvelous for EDS—and EDS will continue to “thrive” even more—yea much much much more—than it has over the past, say . . . two years or so.

She is as well-suited for EDS as Robert Munday is for Nashotah House—only you know . . . in the opposite way entirely and with completely different gospels.

It’s just best, in my opinion, for institutions and organizations to have the leadership that they deserve.

And most times . . . they do.

TBWSantaFe, odd that you aren’t concerned about the evil effects of Planned Parenthood’s indifference to young girls seeking abortions who admit that they were impregnated by an adult man, and that is statutory rape, and it could even be incest, yet the not so caring willing slaughterers of innocent babies, shush them, and refuse to comply with the laws that require them to report such incidents. We do not live in a day or time when a woman or girl’s life would be destroyed by a pregnancy. Adoption is an option for any girl or woman who doesn’t feel she could care for a child. The facts are, women who are impregnated by rape, and get abortions are a minuscule number. I knew a young woman, 19 years old, when I was younger, who had been raped, and did become pregnant. She was terrified, she did think about abortion, but decided to carry the baby to term and place it up for adoption. It was difficult at times for her, but she didn’t regret doing so. She was raised a Catholic, but not a practicing one. She learned some years afterwards, after the family had sent a letter to the adoption agency, in case she ever sought any info, that the little boy was happy, healthy, he loved sports and singing. That he had the same allergies that she did. He was a bright student, and a much loved son. She told me, that she felt that any discomfort that she had felt going through the pregnancy, was more than worth it. 

It’s rather dishonest to claim that a woman’s life is threatened by giving birth. We don’t live back in the days when there wasn’t adequate medical care.. I believe such exaggerations are relied upon, as an attempt to evade having to deal with what is the murder of a child. Speaking out against abortion is not an attack, full or even partial against women, that too is an offensive expression to use. Asking that someone debate on the issue is not on par with violence, again, it’s an attempt to defame any criticism of abortion, or whatever else you want to avoid addressing.

I had hoped there would be some reflection about the difficulties of moral theology surrounding abortion. Here, as elsewhere, it is rarely (though sometimes) a choice between good and evil—but among goods or between evils.

If you truly are interested in careful reflection about the supposedly murky moral status of abortion, then why are you condemning us for absolutism when Mrs. Ragsdale exhibits similar absolutism (except for the pro-choice side)? In her own words:

And when a woman becomes pregnant within a loving, supportive, respectful relationship; has every option open to her; decides she does not wish to bear a child; and has access to a safe, affordable abortion – there is not a tragedy in sight—only blessing.

and later

These are the two things I want you, please, to remember – abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.

It certainly sounds to me like she sees the abortion issue as one of good verses evil.

I hope, in the interest of clarity and truthfulness, that Dean Munday or others will post the official position of the Episcopal Church on abortion. I believe that if that statement is taken fairly, much of bile here will disappear.

I can just imagine the Episcopal Church leadership from the 1850s telling the “extremist” and “moral absolutist” abolitionists of the day that they ought to abide by the clarity of the official church position on slavery. It’s all about conscience after all - if you think slavery is a great evil, you don’t have to own them yourselves, but since the absence of the option of slavery might compromise a person’s plans for the future and livelihood, if others decide that slavery is OK, we should affirm and support their choice (plus, it’s not as if slaves are of equal moral weight to their masters - the Supreme Court even agrees with that proposition).

Katharine Ragsdale’s character and career are not well or fairly represented in this rapid-response.

I have to wonder, it there *anything* which by itself you would consider sufficient to disqualify someone from a position in the church? Or are there no deal breakers? No essential standards? No sine qua nons?

TBW,
Why is not the woman in question censured for opposition to the ‘official’ stance?

The church forbids “abortion as a means of birth control, family planning, sex selection or any reason of mere convenience.”

Why is she given a free pass to head a seminary and continue to call ‘blessed’ what the Episcopal Church forbids?

Some intellectually-, epistemologically- and morally-challenged commenter, above, has suggested that reading the text of the resolution of The Episcopal Church (TEC) on abortion would result in a conclusion that said position is one that is morally thoughtful and appropriate. Just to shed some light on the moral standards of TEC, and by inference on the moral sense of the commenter, the following is the text of the 1994 GenCon version, to wit, Resolution 1994-A054, entitled Reaffirm General Convention Statement on Childbirth and Abortion, as adopted by that GenCon [emphasis added]:

Resolved, the House of Bishops concurring, That this 71st General Convention of the Episcopal Church reaffirms resolution C047 from the 69th General Convention, which states:

All human life is sacred from its inception until death. The Church takes seriously its obligation to help form the consciences of its members concerning this sacredness. Human life, therefore, should be initiated only advisedly and in full accord with this understanding of the power to conceive and give birth which is bestowed by God. It is the responsibility of our congregations to assist their members in becoming informed concerning the spiritual and physiological aspects of sex and sexuality.

The Book of Common Prayer affirms that “the birth of a child is a joyous and solemn occasion in the life of a family. It is also an occasion for rejoicing in the Christian community” (p. 440). As Christians we also affirm responsible family planning.

We regard all abortion as having a tragic dimension, calling for the concern and compassion of all the Christian community.

While we acknowledge that in this country it is the legal right of every woman to have a medically safe abortion, as Christians we believe strongly that if this right is exercised, it should be used only in extreme situations. We emphatically oppose abortion as a means of birth control, family planning, sex selection, or any reason of mere convenience.

In those cases where an abortion is being considered, members of this Church are urged to seek the dictates of their conscience in prayer, to seek the advice and counsel of members of the Christian community and where appropriate, the sacramental life of this Church.

Whenever members of this Church are consulted with regard to a problem pregnancy, they are to explore, with grave seriousness, with the person or persons seeking advice and counsel, as alternatives to abortion, other positive courses of action, including, but not limited to, the following possibilities: the parents raising the child; another family member raising the child; making the child available for adoption.

It is the responsibility of members of this Church, especially the clergy, to become aware of local agencies and resources which will assist those faced with problem pregnancies.

We believe that legislation concerning abortions will not address the root of the problem. We therefore express our deep conviction that any proposed legislation on the part of national or state governments regarding abortions must take special care to see that the individual conscience is respected, and that the responsibility of individuals to reach informed decisions in this matter is acknowledged and honored as the position of this Church; and be it further

Resolved, That this 71st General Convention of the Episcopal Church express its unequivocal opposition to any legislative, executive or judicial action on the part of local, state or national governments that abridges the right of a woman to reach an informed decision about the termination of pregnancy or that would limit the access of a woman to safe means of acting on her decision.

Citation: General Convention, Journal of the General Convention of…The Episcopal Church, Indianapolis, 1994 (New York: General Convention, 1995), pp. 323-25.

This can be found on the web at the following URL:  http://tiny.cc/DuJAq

Now, anyone with any sense of morality and any knowledge of embryology would recognize the following:

<ol>
<li>Once implanted in a uterus, a human embryo will, absent trauma, disease, genetic malformation, or well-known medical conditions that threaten its survival, mature into a person. To call it a fetus, rather than an unborn baby, is an act of linguistic dishonesty. Left alone, and absent an outside agent, that unborn baby will come to term, be born and be a recognizable human being. To infer any other conclusion is simply dishonest.</li>

<li>Because of the fact stated in item 1, above, there is every reason that the unborn baby should be considered a person under the law, and therefore, entitled to some form of due process before its life may be willfully taken.</li>

<li>The existence of an unborn baby in the uterus of a woman, therefore, necessarily and inescapably involves the interests of a minimum of three people—the biological father, the pregnant mother, and the unborn infant. To advocate taking the innocent life of the latter without some form of court hearing at which the independent individual interests of each of those three parties are fairly represented, is nothing short of barbaric. Civilized and moral people do not permit such treatment of even the most heinous of violent murderers, except in the case where the latter is killed by a threatened person acting in self-defense, or by a bystander acting to protect that threatened person. Yet the language of the resolution is unambiguous. The denial of any right of the unborn infant to the protection of the law is precisely what The Episcopal Church advocates and urges.</li>
</ol>

To assert that the stated position of The Episcopal Church is, or ever has been, somehow moral beggars belief.  How anyone that claims to have a moral sense can assert otherwise is beyond absurd, the thoughtless assertions of the aforementioned commenter notwithstanding. Such a claim is equivalent to asserting that we are created without any knowledge of good and evil and without any conscience. It is a surd!

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

I guess I should clarify my views of this woman.  Lest anyone else claim “Katharine Ragsdale’s character and career are not well or fairly represented in this rapid-response.”  She is demonic, she has embraced death and revels in it, she is stone hearted and an author of confusion. She has a sickness of soul that corrupts the innocent. I would not allow her within sight of any child or grandchild of mine.  And I shudder to think what will happen should she not avail herself of God’s great mercy. 

And those who cannot see this need to ponder the 4 last things so that they may work out their salvation in fear and trembling.

TWBSantaFe (#88) wrote:

I hope, in the interest of clarity and truthfulness, that Dean Munday or others will post the official position of the Episcopal Church on abortion. I believe that if that statement is taken fairly, much of bile here will disappear.

Tom, since you have invoked my name, I will endeavor to answer you.  Anyone can read the legislative history of the Episcopal Church’s position on abortion here: (http://www.episcopalarchives.org/cgi-bin/acts/acts_topic_search.pl?topic=Abortion).  But I am not sure how this helps in considering the matter of Katherine Ragsdale’s selection as President/Dean of EDS.

The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, which Katherine headed for many years, would like to see this position changed in a direction that is more supportive of free access to abortion, just as the organization on whose board I have served since 1988 and was sometime President (the National Organization of Episcopalians for Life [NOEL], now Anglicans for Life) would like to see a greater emphasis on protection for the unborn. 

The Church’s position in 1988 stated: “All human life is sacred. Hence it is sacred from its inception until death.”  But in 1994 and subsequent General Conventions that position has gradually been weakened.  Many of us saw the Executive Council’s decision to join the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice as the final nail in the coffin.  Such a fiat decision by the Executive Council to side with an abortion rights organization renders the legislative process of the General Convention meaningless.

But the real issue isn’t the Episcopal Church’s position on abortion: it is Katherine Ragsdale’s position on abortion, which is far more radical than the General Convention ever thought of being.

Read Katherine’s sermon (http://ragsdalesermons.blogspot.com/):

These are the two things I want you, please, to remember – abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.

And the person who preached these words has now been put in charge of one of the Episcopal Church’s seminaries!!!  In the interest of truthfulness and clarity let me say that this is the equivalent among the seminaries to what the Diocese of New Hampshire did in 2003.  (Of course I know that everyone at EDS thinks that was a positive step also.)

In contrast, I call your attention to the Statement of Identity of another seminary (http://www.nashotah.edu/publications/NashotahHouseStatementofIdentity.htm) which says,

Believing that all human life is a sacred gift from God to be protected and defended from conception to natural death, we shall endeavor to bring the grace and compassion of Christ to any who are confronted with ethical decisions regarding abortion, reproductive technology, or terminal illness.

All that the choice of a new dean at EDS boils down to is that the Episcopal Church’s most leftward leaning seminary has taken another giant step leftward, and it should come as no surprise that most of the commenters on this site don’t think that is a good thing.

Robert S. Munday+
Nashotah House

“I took vows,” Ragsdale said.

To who - Molech?

Even Molech would recognise the lives sacrificed to him, these comments go beyond that because the unborn don’t even count for that. With this minset they are so worthless that being aborted is, in itself, a blessing.

At least with an old fashioned sacrifice to Molech the lives are lost with a purpose. This attitude is worse because it’s blanket indifference to the sacredness of life; it can’t even be bothered making the effort to profane the sacred,  heck it can’t even recognise the sacred in the first place and that’s frightening to me.

I once taught moral theology to students preparing for ordination to the permanent deaconate, and asked them to consider the Episcopal Organization’s stance on abortion from 1968 to 1994 - the year I taught the class. What they discovered was that the Episcopal Organization held, to put it charitably, inconsistent and even contradictory views. An HOB statement in the late 60s was unequivocal in its description of abortion as immoral and unacceptable. A few yeas later, the General Convention decided that “a woman’s right to choose” trumped any consideration that abortion might involve the taking of a human life. Now the Organization embraces and funds RCRC which is fueled by the ideas of and led by the likes of Ms. Ragsdale. I asked my class to articulate the unifying underlying moral principle of these “official positions” of the Organization. The best they could come up was “majority vote wins” - which as the past forty years have shown us, is, before the two Great Commandments, the bedrock moral principle of the Organization. The second great commandment of the Organization is “it can’t be wrong if it feels so right and good”. Mr Fletcher died an atheist - and had the decency to leave the church and its seminary. Today he would feel quite at home in EDS.

#99. MA and #101. TATW
Your comments were an example of clarity that is rarely found coming from TEC leadership. Anyone who would challenge the legitimacy of opinions expressed on this site and on this thread in particular could not withstand the articulate cases you have stated. Thanks to S.F. for this forum, to the posters on this thread and in particular to you two. I am one of those “Moral Absolutists” that Tom is referring to and accept the label. Blessings,

A bit of research indicates that the accrediting body for EDS is the Association of Theological Schools.

The EDS profile, which is out of date, is here:
http://www.ats.edu/MemberSchools/Pages/SchoolDetail.aspx?ID=73

The accreditation standard appears to have wiggle room. However, I think a site visit is warranted.

6.1.1 Faculty members shall possess the appropriate credentials for graduate theological education, normally demonstrated by the attainment of a
research doctorate or, in certain cases, another earned doctoral degree. In addition to academic preparation, ministerial and ecclesial experience is an important qualification in the composition of the faculty.

Of interest is that articles in the Boston Globe state that (in addition to supporting the murder of unborn babies) she is openly homosexual, and initially had trouble finding a bishop who would ordain her.

Rrrrrippppppp!

Another tear in the fabric of the Anglican Communion?

Making up and believing one’s own or another’s thoughts (however whole-heartedly, fervently, sincerely, tenderly or well-intentioned) that are not God’s own revelation about Himself and His expectations given in His Word is like eating one’s own by-products. 

Seems like EDS and TEO specialize in that kind of Excrement Digestion-type Scholarship.  They have long departed from the Revelation that Jesus Is Lord and Scripture is God’s Word and the reverence for human life as the holy icon or image of God.

Even ‘Majority vote’ is not supreme if it does not agree with their agenda.  Lambeth 1998 proved that.  The socio-sexual agendites find a way around the vote, like Indaba and Ubuntu.

TEC has descended to the chaos of power-mongering, political wrangling, to become an anarchical oligarchy, not a theocracy. 

The current state of affairs in both the AC and TEO certainly proves that ‘Sin is lawlessness.’  I John 3:4

Dr Barnard Nathanson was active in Planned Parenthood for several decades.  He was one of the chief architects of the PR campaign in the 60’s to get abortion to be regarded as acceptable by lawmakers, courts, and the public at large.  It was he who spoke of “coat hanger” and “back alley” abortions as being common and dreadful, as indeed they would be.  He gave frightening statistics that helped to change the minds of the public and the decision makers.

Dr Nathanson became a Christian some time during the 80’s.  He admitted in a book he wrote (the name of which escapes me at the moment) that he had fabricated all the statistics about back alley abortions.  He did not even guess - he simply made the figures up.

He has repented of his evil.  Would that Ms Ragsdale do the same.

Subscribe!  Just for the shear enjoyment of the war of the comments. Something tells me that if Ms. Ragsdale is aware of and reading this thread is enjoying it immensely!

And God weeps when we humans step away from His Divine Wisdom and build our own!

Mrs. Ragsdale appears to me to be one of these dreary feminists that just don’t want to go away.  How long must we suffer these people?  Some people are full of darkness and some people are full of light.

I wonder what my old country grandmother would have thought of all these type of people?  She was tough as nails, took care of herself for many, many years after her husbands early death, Had 3 great big boys that were all good athletes, strong, served in the military, were all succesful, but if she said jump, they wanted to know how high.  She was a strict believer, no grey areas for her. No wishy washy stuff.  She could smell a white lie a mile away.  She loved all her grandchildren unconditionally, and we knew would protect us like a bear if it ever came to it.  She was full of salt and light.  I always looked at her like a pioneer type. She grew and worked a huge garden every year, canned her own veggies, grew her own apples, figs, plums, pears and made jelly and canned all of she didn’t immediately use.  We loved going way out in the countryside to her house. The world she was from has disappeared, but thank goodness I got to be around her while growing up.

I have a feeling my grandmother would look at these women like they were aliens from outer space.  These Ragsdale type women, when I look at them, just seem so… depressing.

TBWSantaFe

You believe that the Episcopalians in the pew are informed.  Would you be willing to put Ragsdale’s new position along with her sermon in a flyer to your parish, and use whatever influence you have to get it published in your diocese’s new paper and Episcopal Life?

Tom, you can talk hard cases until you’re blue in the face but the fact remains that this vile human being has publicly stated that she thinks abortions are just fine for any reason at all.  That’s not bile, that’s the truth.  Suck it up and deal with it.

Re;  No. 81—

I had hoped there would be some reflection about the difficulties of moral theology surrounding [infanticide]. Here, as elsewhere, it is rarely (though sometimes) a choice between good and evil—but among goods or between evils.

I assume some here remember the evil effects of our country’s earlier criminalization of [infanticide]. There were terrible, terrible tragedies including death to innocent young women that stemmed from their attempts to save their own lives after medical complications from an unwanted or even wanted [newborn infant], from the filthy conditions of the rooms where [infanticides] were done, and from the lives spent by poor women rearing the offspring of rape and incest.

Is all of life sacred? Yes. Does that value ever come in conflict with other moral values? Most certainly. Does the life of the mother have equal weight to that of a [newborn infant]?  Probably more weight (and those conflicts do occur on a regular basis). Is it helpful to use the language of “spewing evil” as used in this string? Absolutely not. 

I am waiting for someone, perhaps yourself TBW, to make the case that there is a moral difference between aborting a fetus (to use the cold and sterile medical/scientific term) and killing a one month old newborn.  What if the newborn is the result of rape or incest?  What if the newborn is the child of a very poor woman whose life will be financially ruined forever by having to care for a child?  What if the newborn is inconvenient?  Why would infanticide in such cases not be regarded as a blessing, as Rev. Ragsdale insists abortion should be regarded? 

Or, to ask the question another way, if we can agree that infanticide is evil, as indeed any act of murder is evil, then how exactly do we arrive at the position that abortion is not evil?  I’m waiting to hear.

BTW, Sarah, as a person recently received into the Roman Catholic Church, I am overjoyed at my new church home.  This is not to say that there are not many heretics and apostates in my new church—there are, particularly in this country.  But thanks be to God we are led by a Pope who is one of the world’s leading orthodox theologians, and there is a great deal of commitment toward cleaning things up. 

For me the big problem as an Episcopalian was remaining in a place where my anger and bile directed at the leadership of my church were actively interfering with my Christian walk.  I have been pleasantly surprised at discovering many, many opportunities in my new church home to have fellowship with devoted, orthodox Christians.  And of course the top leader of my church is someone I admire unfeignedly. 

The night I was received into the Catholic Church, my new pastor instructed me to pray for those at the parish I left behind, not that they would see the light and leave, but that their wounds would one day heal.

TBWSantaFe,

More attempts at equivocation, TBW???

Why do you run from any reflection of the wrongs that have been brought about by the far left, which includes the abortion industry, and those like Ragsdale that demand more of the same and worse?

Again, there can be no equivocation, this is not a “choice…. among goods or between evils” it is always a choice between good and evil. I’ve come to realize that.

There is no liberation, no rights, no freedoms in watching society be regressed back to a time when life is cheap,  degraded, infanticide, the exploitation of children, men and women, the imposition of prostitution as just another career choice, when we’re all chained to the wheel of slavery, to serve the whims of a sick, corrupt, elite.. But that has what has come about by the so called women’s movement, the advocates of the abortion industry, and their assorted counterparts.

I do remember when abortion was illegal, and I do remember reading/hearing the discussions in the media on the subject. You emphasize rape and incest, but those weren’t the majority of illegal abortions prior to Roe v Wade, in fact the majority of women seeking abortion when it was illegal were prostitutes. Nor were there large numbers of women trying to save their lives because of threats to their lives from unplanned pregnancies, seeking abortion. It’s well known that prior to Roe v Wade, women who had high risks due to complications in past pregnancies, had medical care to lessen those risks, and doctors legally had the ability to save the life of a mother at risk. Birth control was legal long before abortion, as well.

I remember the claims that this was all about serving the interest of women, to have opportunities to better their lives, yet the fruit that was borne by the abortion industry movement, has been to reduce women to little more than sexual slaves… in fact, the far left’s movements have, in their mindset, reduced us all to that lowest common denominator.

Women’s rights were promoted as an attempt to achieve “equality”,  men were stereotyped as oppressors,
Marriage and raising children were stereotyped as chains of bondage. Yet, over time, those who initially claimed that women should be more than just sexual playthings, have reduced women, and children, to nothing but.  First it was legalized abortion on demand, then it was partial birth abortion, all the way up through the third trimester, and abortion on demand for teenaged girls, without parental consent, the next progression is the same for little girls, as the abortion industry has succeeded in pushing through in Brazil, where a 9 year old girl just received one. Then again, Brazil, a culture that gives a pass to what some there view as a national pastime, pedophilia, and is in fact a major sex tourism destination,  the fact the leader of the homosexual rights movement in that country,  a man named Luiz Mott, is also an advocate to legalize sex with minors.

The same women’s movement, demands legalized prostitution, knowing full well that were that to happen, more young women would be exploited by it. Their value not as human beings, with rights, but as nothing more than what the movement defines as valuable. Visit the website of the National Organization for Women, and the only issue that is not about more abortion, all the time, and sexuality, is about increased opportunities for women already above the glass ceiling. The same far left that has systematically eroded the quality of basic education, which has lead to increased drop out rates, reduced literacy, etc.. and who only demand more of the same, with any new expenditures being on indoctrination in social theory, with a heavy emphasis on the sexualization, of even 5 year old children. When increased abstinence and emphasis on promiscuity increasing the likelihood of contracting HIV/AIDS, the homosexual advocacy movement, the women’s movement, etc… demanded that children be sexualized, that they be indoctrinated to believe that sexual experimentation is a good thing, and a condom would save them, so they don’t need to think, or consider anything other than having sex, at increasingly younger ages.

So, let’s examine the result of ignoring the moral teachings of Christian theology, increased exploitation of women and children, the degradation of all human life, abortion rates increasingly higher, increased prostitution, increased molestation of children, advocacy for the legalization of prostitution and pedophilia. Increased erosion of the family, the erosion of quality basic education, the forced subsidization of sexual indoctrination, the erosion of wage and workplace protections, the rationalizations of displacing citizen workers, for cheap foreign labor, which increases global economic destabilization and slavery. The far left has been working over time to regress us all back to the mores of what ancient Rome had under Caligula. So TBW, your attempt at equivocation holds no water. The far left, and that includes the abortion industry is sick with the same corruption and greed, the same sin as the banks and corporations that brought about this economic collapse. It’s an insane, always hungry beast, that is never satisfied, it’s not about rights, it’s about exploitation and oppression. It demands that even a Christian wanting a license plate that shows their support for life, is something that needs to be censored. This is about a choice between good and evil.

THIS bears repeating p “The far left, and that includes the abortion industry is sick with the same corruption and greed, the same sin as the banks and corporations that brought about this economic collapse. It’s an insane, always hungry beast, that is never satisfied, it’s not about rights, it’s about exploitation and oppression. It demands that even a Christian wanting a license plate that shows their support for life, is something that needs to be censored. This is about a choice between good and evil.”

You go, Mari!

A Bishop-led grass roots petition should be presented to EDS and to GC protesting this appointment.  This is the time for all good men and women insiders to come to the aid of their Church.

Silence is complicity.

Just like some Catholics (and non-Catholics) are protesting Pres. Obama receiving an honorary degree from Notre Dame, Anglicans and Episcopalians should be protesting this decision by EDS. And the story has made Hot Air (http://hotair.com/), via Amy Welborn at Via Media (http://blog.beliefnet.com/viamedia/2009/03/abortion-is-a-blessing.html) - so now it’s gone global!

“Who is the worst possible candidate we could choose to lead us into the 21st century?”

What are you trying to say Greg? Abortion ISNT a blessing?

But she is the one of the better candidates to drive EDS six feet under. So I am happy with the choice.

#119 Well Dr Dr RobRoy - it seems to me that there are still a great many Christians in TEC and a number of people doing some heavy lifting at no small sacrifice to themselves for their sake so your prescription of Belladonna for the patient comes across as not up to your usual charitable standard.  Perhaps you would like some honey with your lemon instead?

EDS has produced a great deal of the toxin currently poisoning the denomination, so its demise is not something to be mourned. In contrast, TESM, Nashotah, and to some degree ETSS (where my wife went) are turning out graduates with sanity. ETSS is somewhat conservative and hasn’t been blacklisted by the powers that be in many revisionist dioceses. Hence, enrollment is up and that is good.

#121 Apologies - my comment was too harsh.

I’m with robroy - EDS is less like a sick patient that needs our help, and more like a gangrenous limb that needs to be cut off. The sooner it folds the better.

The petition should be issued anyway.

It is STILL necessary and the responsibility for God’s people to be a witness and to speak Truth to power and to state exactly what is wrong and to REQUIRE repentance of anyone who mis-uses the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ. 

It is the choice of TEC, EDS, KR, KJS, RW, et al, whether to repent or die in the dark outside of God’s Grace and Life. 

We have been given the greatest treasure the earth has ever known: The Gospel of unchanging Truth, holy Love and eternal and abundant earthly Life to guard and we have been given the privilege and awesome responsibility to LIVE it. 

Jesus is real.  His plan and power work.  He has made possible at the cost of His own life and incredible suffering, the Way to a beautiful and abundant life…despite persecution, mockery, opposition, betrayal.

We must speak, think, act within the definitions and boundaries of Truth, Love, Life, male, female, marriage, respect, joy, mercy, goodness (the fruit of the Holy Spirit) and reverent Holy Worship that are given to the Church in God’s Word and His Moral Law.

It is The Word that births us into faith(James 1:18; Romans 10:17), heals, washes and sanctifies (Ephesians 5:26)us, builds us (Acts 20:32), sustains us (Hebrews 1:3).

We must think, speak, pray and digest that word unceasingly.  It is re-discovering and reading the Word that caused Israel to rent its clothing, weep and mourn for days and weeks in Godly sorrow for its sins in the Old Testament.
‘My word shall not return to me void.’ Isaiah 55:11
‘He sent forth His word and healed them and saved them from their destructions.’ Psalm 107:20
‘My words are spirit, they are life.’ John 6:63

I simply cannot understand anyone who would use an Abortion organization as a vehicle to power nor can I understand a church or education institution that would consider participation in abortion groups a qualification for advancement.

Dean Munday, I remember a clericus in the Diocese of Milwaukee held at Nashotah House at which Bill Oelenhausen and I were asked to debate these issues. At the end of the day Bill and I agreed that the fear of his side was that to acknowledge exceptions to a “Pro-Life” positions might compromise the belief in the sanctity of all life—just as the fear of the “Pro-Choice” people was that if you affirmed the sanctity of all life in the words of the Pro-Life people that would take away legitimate conflicts and exceptions.

What happened at that clericus was quite remarkable—it was as though we all wanted some way to affirm our own strongly held opinions while upholding those of others’. Neither side had to be demonized.

I do not have to support the clips others have posted here in order to support the decision of the Trustees at EDS to call Ms. Ragsdale as dean. I do not have to support every edgy position that Dean Munday has taken over the years to support the decision the Trustees of Nashotah House made in calling him as dean. Both priests have much to contribute to the church. I assume both can be demonized if one were intent to do so—as any of us could be.

Perhaps we can all pray that God will use us all for the benefit of Christ’s mission and ministry in the world, blessing our strengths and redeeming our weaknesses and misunderstandings.

Yes but Tom…..at the end of the day you and the other side were still opposing each other and no ground was won on either side…..so what is really your point? To live and let live while babies are being murdered all the while respecting each others view points? What a tragic world this would be if it were always thought and done this way!

TBWSantaFe,

The woman is inciting murder of children, and calling it a blessing.  To some who claims Christ do so is painful.  To hear one who claims the priesthood do so is revolting. 

It is not ‘demonizing’ her to point out the simple truth, her position has ‘demonized’ her.

yeah, you don’t have to support every position of a candidate to support the candidate…but there are those issues that necessarily stand out. A seminary dean who celebrates killing the weak is one of them.

126
They will both contribute to the church alright.  dean Munday will continue to uphold the ancient faith bequeathed to us by the apostles, and form priests prepared to lead their parishes to a deeper faith and understanding of their Lord.  Dr. Ragsdale, on the other had, will continue to promote sin and heresy and undermine the faith of those who pass through her institution, perverting the Gospel and poisioning the minds of seminarians and their future congregants.

What happened at that clericus was quite remarkable—it was as though we all wanted some way to affirm our own strongly held opinions while upholding those of others’. Neither side had to be demonized.

Isn’t that just incredibly sad?

I assure you that God has a very clear opinion on the issue… He is not in any way confused or anxious that “other’s opinions” be upheld or respected.

(For the purpose of this discussion only) it isn’t important what His position is… but it should break your heart that you didn’t care whether the “wrong” side (yours or his) learned of their error and corrected it. You would actually prefer that everyone walk away happy.

This is one of the key sins of theological liberalism… molding our definition of the lord’s will to our own desired Behavior instead of molding our behavior to His Will.

Tom, you seem to have only a fill in the blank form, a rote technique to apply to objections to Ragsdale (or indeed to any difference of opinion with you).

I do not have to support the clips others have posted here in order to support the decision of the Trustees at EDS to call Ms. Ragsdale as dean. I do not have to support every edgy position that Dean Munday has taken over the years to support the decision the Trustees of Nashotah House made in calling him as dean.

You assume an equivalence between the situations, but feel no pressure to demonstrate that. Does that really fly in the real world? Could Ted Bundy get off by just saying to the judge, “I bet you did bad things too!”.

But I’m disagreeing with you - I suppose this means I’m demonizing you, even though I’d really like to hear why you think this sort of thing is OK. Never mind.

Evan I have to agree…. the damage that she will do to priests in training….and those will try to affect the thinking of my children and grandchildren…only today I had a friend ask why should they come to/join the Episcopal church