Bishop-Elect Forrester Replaces New Testament Reading with Quran Passage

No less ironic when you consider the piece that was replaced (Year A, 2nd Sunday after Epiphany):

1 Corinthians 1:1-9

Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that has been given you in Christ Jesus, for in every way you have been enriched in him, in speech and knowledge of every kind—just as the testimony of Christ has been strengthened among you—so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ. He will also strengthen you to the end, so that you may be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful; by him you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

and the opening prayer in the handout is a doozy too:

God of Light and Wisdom:
May we hold in trust
The questioning mind,
The searching heart,
The thirsting soul;
May we guard as sacred
The many different paths into you,
The Font of all Life;
May we be as ready to hear the good news
From your people of other denominations and faiths,
As we are to proclaim the gospel;
Through the healing Spirit of Christ. Amen

The Gospel is from a “translation” - hard to call it that when the preface to it talks about “tinkering” with the text - called the “Inclusive New Testament”. 

Honestly, I’m not sure what scandalizes me more, ripping on the NT or using Quran for worship in a Christian Church.  That this man is still functioning as a priest and being considered a bishop is beyond belief. 

Either I underestimate the wiles of bent people, or God is blinding people to their self destruction ambitions. There are doubtless other possibilities, but I see nothing as likely. 

What I am convinced of is that we will be watching the total train wreck of TEC between now the end of GC2009

I’m not surprised, I’ll wager Forrester was spitting in the wind, with that one. Perhaps he’s starting to realize that he might not be slipping through as easily as he hoped.

Junk…Tommie Woodward style…
Intercessor

That must be a really weird church.  I wonder what other religions they replace the New Testament with.

Nice catch, bro.  This is why I’m REALLY leery of joking about this ridiculous organization.

I was giving the benefit of the doubt down through and including “May we guard as sacred The many different paths into you,
The Font of all Life; “

There are many ways to be brought to Christ after all (some without words by faithful spouses, some by tears, others by fire-and-brimstone preaching of the word, etc)

But the God-News, the Gospel is all about Christ: Virgin Birth, Sinless Life, Sacrificial Death, Buried, Raised, all according to the Scriptures, you’ll not find that in the Qu’ron.

The bulletin insert, linked to at the beginning of the post, lists on page 5 a gentleman named Mohey Mowafy as the preacher for the service, right behind Bishop Genpo.  Mowafy is identified as a Muslim in the biography at this internet site:
http://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/3A65F163-1C1E-4900-9A6B-1F9B572CAD19/0/DistrictIII_MowafyandRussell_.pdf

Because of Dr. Mowafy’s keen interest, extensive reading, and personal experience as an Egyptian-born American Muslim, he is very frequently
sought as a presenter and guest columnist on subjects relating to political and religious issues of war and peace in the Middle East.

Perhaps this is common, but I was not aware that it was the practice to have Muslims leading Christian services.

St. Pauls Marquette, a hotbed of evangelism…

http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_44200921104AM.pdf

In a similar vein, on April 1, 2009, the Bishop of Rhode Island defrocked Ann Holmes Redding, an Episcopal priestess, because she had converted to the Muslim faith.  She is disappointed, because she sincerely believes that her conversion to Islam is not inconsistent with continued service in the Episcopal church.  Anyone who seriously thinks that Christianity and Islam are compatible with each other is, intellectually speaking, living on a different planet.  Unfortunately, based on what I know or have always suspected by the Episcopal church, I do not find Ms. Redding’s behavior to be surprising.  I am amazed, however, that the hierarchy of the church has enough gumption to defrock her.
So the Episcopal Church actually stood up for a belief.  Wow.  There might be hope for it yet!

If you look at the Dio of Northern MI website and read the vision statement, it will be clear how this sad affair fits right in their game plan.

In the same set of emails I received the following Bible quote - so relevant and so much more pleasurable!

“You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.”

Brethren, enjoy the Lord’s blessings.

“They bend their tongue like their bow;
Lies and not truth prevail in the land;
For they proceed from evil to evil,
And they do not know Me,” declares the LORD.
“Keep your feet from being unshod
And your throat from thirst;
But you said, ‘It is hopeless!
No! For I have loved strangers,
And after them I will walk.”

(Jeremiah 9:3 ; 2:25)

Another day, another heresy,

btw I wonder what these enneagram interviews which the Rev Forrester offers?  Are they painful?

Wow. The infection is even worse that one could have imagined. Not even the most radical of the progressives can let this to go by.

This entire diocese needs to be dissolved.

At least dismantled and rebuilt. A job for Deacon Payne, Seminary Formationator.

Enneagram? That’s Gurdjieff. Even worse. This guy could well be into some very dangerous stuff.

Take their church!  Take their church!

I thought that St Gregory of Nyssa was a hotbed of lunacy.  They certainly have competition from an unexpected quarter!

I caught that Pageantmaster.  If it were not such a sore subject in the church right now, I could laugh.

In re: Kevin Thew Forrester

If this nefarious, heretical poseur gains consents, TEC is dead.

I have never understood the obsession of religious liberals with embracing a religion that is antithetical to women’s rights, homosexuality and religious pluralism.

Keep in mind that some all this goes on in Roman Catholic and Episcopal retreat centers as well as Reiki, Labyrinths, etc. are all seeking after gnosis, secret methods, power, knowledge, control. 

These are people trying to ‘be spiritual’ rather than recognizing we are not spiritual, to have power rather than be dependent on God’s power.  Gnosticism is founded on pride and fear.
There are nuns, monks and ‘Catholics’ and protestants and Episcopalians who think mohammedan, buddhist and hindu religions are equal with Christianity.  These people avoid the mention of sin and evil.  They reveal their ignorance and blindness when they approve and affirm sexual sin, disoriented and sinful lifestyles. 

They do not believe humanity exists in a fallen state and the desires of the flesh must be kept under the moral law to prevent our harming ourselves and others.  They do not recognize that we are being transformed, working out our salvation with fear and trembling.  They do not believe they must abide and remain dependent on the Holy Spirit for leadership, for light, power, love, truth and life…just as Jesus was dependent upon the Father.  And they do not want to walk the way of Gesthemane, of the Cross, but believe there is no need for the Cross.

But there was NO way around the Cross for Jesus our Lord and there is NO way around the Cross for us.  We must live out our own crucifixion of the flesh, the will, the inclination to spiritual adultery and idolatry…but on the other side, there is freedom, victory, joy, peace and abundant life…and live eternal.

I would politely request that folks refrain from associating KTF’s imposition of his beliefs onto the congregation of St. Paul’s and the congregation itself let alone the diocese.  The congregation consists of at least half cradle Episcopalians who are often as bewildered and confused by all this as you are.  They, however, lack a sound education in theology and cannot put together an argument as cogent as some of you—rather they keep asking for the prayer book service - even if it is only one Sunday a month.  Many of the rest of the congregation are new to TEC and don’t really know what it traditional and what is “new.”  Suffice to say that those in the congregation most upset have had no where to turn to in the absence of a bishop.

The Diocese is only now through some of these postings getting a true understanding of the liturgical changes that KTF has imposed on St. Paul’s.  You would be grossly mistaken if you believed that KTF was merely reflecting what the congregation and the diocese want.  In fact, when challenged about this, he stated that the people need to be lead forward. Keep praying, please.

#20 Athanasius Returns. If KTF gets the needed consents, I see it as a sign that TEC is ignorant and/or foolish, but not necessarily dead.

If Integrity convinces TEC, in formal assembly at General Convention in Anaheim, to renounce Lambeth 1.10, then I do see that as a sign that TEC is dead. If such renunciation is at the level of doctrine, then no conservative will be able to say his or her ordination vows. The earthquake will toss the fence-sitters off the fence, and complete the tear in the fabric of the Anglican Communion.

2. in view of the teaching of Scripture, upholds faithfulness in marriage between a man and a woman in lifelong union, and believes that abstinence is right for those who are not called to marriage;

4. while rejecting homosexual practice as incompatible with Scripture…

5a. cannot advise the legitimising or blessing of same sex unions nor

5b. ordaining those involved in same gender unions;

Sorry, that should read WITH the congregation itself let alone the diocese…(at the beginning of my post).  TJM care to add to my thoughts?

In my present non-TEC Anglican church, nothing such as this could happen.  But if it did, the pews would be empty by the end of the reading.  One hopes that this information will be rapidly disseminated by those still in TEC.

K(G)TF+—the gift that keeps on giving

clarity, folks—looks like we’ll have a boatload more of it in June.

What’s the big deal? Remember Episcopal bishop John Bryson Chane’s nationally televised Christmas sermon at the National Cathedral a few years ago.  Chane asks a series of rhetorical questions: “And what was God thinking . . . when the Angel Gabriel was sent by God to reveal the Law to Moses? And what was God thinking . . . when the Angel Gabriel was sent by God to reveal the sacred Quran to the prophet Muhammad? And what was God thinking . . . when the Angel Gabriel was sent by God to reveal the birth of Jesus Christ, the Son of God?”

Reading the Quran in an Episcopalian service just reminds folks what God was thinking.  Thew Forrester will be perfect as a bishop for all Episcopalians.  Even better than Chane.

#25 Renzinthewoods
Thank you for explaining what is going on - it is hard for many of us far away to understand.  May I ask how long this stuff has been going on?  Is it a recent development in your diocese?  I will certainly add my prayers for the diocese of Northern Michigan btw.

The Episcopal “Church” will be a handful of liberal congregations 40 years from now. Anathema to them and all of their false ways.

Just out of curiosity how many members does this parish claim? How many remain? Could it be they can’t see the trees for the Forrester?

RE: “Not even the most radical of the progressives can let this to go by.”

HAH HAH HAH!

On another note, RenzintheWoods, your point is well-taken:

RE: “I would politely request that folks refrain from associating KTF’s imposition of his beliefs onto the congregation of St. Paul’s and the congregation itself let alone the diocese.”

I’m going to add my polite request and up the ante a bit.

Bishop-Elect Forrester is probably a very nice man—the kind of guy I would enjoy chatting with over at my coffee hangout—indeed, the kind of guy I *have* enjoyed chatting with over at my coffee hangout.

Please don’t go off on him, personally.  There’s no doubt in my mind that he should not be a bishop much less a priest.  BUT please don’t make wild statements about his person, such as “Foul Denizen Of Hell, Release From Your Tentacles the burning coal of Perversion.”  Or whatever. 

All one has to comment on are his actions, and apparently, he has substituted a reading from the Quaran for the NT reading in a Sunday morning worship service.

That bald fact of *action* or statements alone is quite enough.

#25 Renzinthewoods wrote:

The Diocese is only now through some of these postings getting a true understanding of the liturgical changes that KTF has imposed on St. Paul’s.  You would be grossly mistaken if you believed that KTF was merely reflecting what the congregation and the diocese want.  In fact, when challenged about this, he stated that the people need to be lead forward. Keep praying, please.

This may be one of the most poignant postings I’ve read through this entire sorry affair. “They keep asking for the prayer book service,” Renzinthewoods writes,“even if it is only one Sunday a month.”  I don’t know, but that really got to me.

bb

Forrester could have at least picked one of 27 +/- verses referencing Isa (Jesus). [rolleyes]

That the congregation let this person get away with introducing Quranic verse to Christian liturgy is beyond the pale.

I am so glad you guys are out there ferretting out the nonbelievers. Must be hard work.

Can you imagine that a bishop was chosen by a small group of insiders? The horror!

“Forrester could have at least picked one of 27 +/- verses referencing Isa (Jesus). [rolleyes]”

Wouldn’t that be putting the Quran in an awfully small box?

In any event, it’s over for +Forrester. If he had any concern for the people of TEC in UP, he would withdraw right now, and let them get on with a fruitful search for episcopal leadership.  I would suggest they start with the alumni of The House or TSM.

RE: “Must be hard work.”

Not really, no.

Sorry, that’s Forrester”+”.

I was going to add, “and thanks be to God”, but I’m not sure what business this guy has as a priest, either.

RE: “Must be hard work.”

Actually, in this case I would characterize it as “low hanging fruit.”

Well, if he had a Muslim preaching I’m not surprised if he included text from the Quran. ;^) I can perhaps understand while someone might do this as a part of an interfaith service as a one time thing, but such a service would need to be explained well in advance and doesn’t belong, IMO, on a Sunday morning. I’ve been to an interfaith service where the Epicopal priest of the church where it was held wanted the UM minister who was preaching to take off his pectoral cross for fear of attending non Christians. He is a friend of mine. His comment was: “Interfaith services are not where we pretend to be something we’re not; I am a Chrsitain minister,” and refused. I agreed with his stand.

And if the people in Forrester’s congregation are saying, “Can’t we have the prayerbook once a month?” that is very sad. Forrester belongs in the UU along with Redding and the Druid Epicopal priests..

He seems to envision himself as some sort of prophet dragging people along where they will embrace the “All” of all relgions. There must be interfaith ordganizations who need such leaders; Why be a priest or (Heaven forbid) a Bishop in a church that claims Christianity? It’s alright to repect and learn from other faith traditions, but does the man even want to be known as a Christian? It doesn’t seem that way, unless he wants to be known as one simply to get the Bishop’s mitre, so he can then do his own thing on a larger stage.

On other religions:

“I respect those things that are holy”

Pope John Paul

Virtues anyone?

BabyBlue, Ditto on post #33.  The biggest tragedy however is how these spiritual leaders are leading their flocks FROM Christ not to Him.  Luke 17:2…

I respect Muslims as God’s children. In fact, I employ one at my law office and he is an excellent worker. I let him have his holy days off and I accomodate his prayer needs just as I do for the Christians and Jews who also work for me. 

If one needs to go beyond canonical scripture for pastoral purposes, there is much available Christian literature. For example, a reading from the Protovangelium of James would be appropriate for the Feast of the Conception of the BVM or the Feast of the Nativity of the BVM.  The Acts of Pilate, the Gospel of Nicodemus, and the Gospel of Judas may be appropriate during Holy Week. The Assumption of the Virgin would be appropriate on that feast in August.

While the Quaran may have, independently, much of value for us Christians, it is inappropriate for a reading at Mass.

This may be one of the most poignant postings I’ve read through this entire sorry affair. “They keep asking for the prayer book service,” Renzinthewoods writes,“even if it is only one Sunday a month.” I don’t know, but that really got to me.

That got me, too, Baby Blue. All I could think of was Jesus moved with compassion towards the crowd because they were sheep without a shepherd.

Rezinthewoods, this also got to me,

Many of the rest of the congregation are new to TEC and don’t really know what it traditional and what is “new.”

Those could be not-yet-believers who are seeking for the Lord. It breaks my heart to think of those looking for Him being given rocks to break their teeth instead of the Bread of Life. You bring home the reality that this is not a skirmish of preferences, but a war between Life and death.

Blessings,
Pat Kashtock
http://patkashtock.squarespace.com/conversations/

Renzinthewoods, I’m with BabyBlue on this.  WOW!

I’m still wondering why after everything TEC has done that some are surprised by this.  “They exchanged the truth of God’s word for a lie” the evolution of TEC in a nutshell.
My question is why they changed the word “Allah” to the word “God” in the reading.  If they believe the 2 to be one and the same just use the original word.

[43] DesertDavid wrote:

If one needs to go beyond canonical scripture for pastoral purposes, there is much available Christian literature.  For example, a reading from the Protovangelium of James would be appropriate for the Feast of the Conception of the BVM or the Feast of the Nativity of the BVM.  The Acts of Pilate, the Gospel of Nicodemus, and the Gospel of Judas may be appropriate during Holy Week. The Assumption of the Virgin would be appropriate on that feast in August.

Not to mention a reading from the Pearl of Great Price to celebrate the martyrdom of Joseph Smith.  Or a reading from the Book of the Dead to remember the connection between the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of Osiris.  Or a reading from the Orange Catholic Bible on the Feast Day of the Calling of the Worm.  There are lots of alternatives for Christians to read and value and learn from.

carl

I love it, I love it, I love it…. simply beautiful…everytime something like this happens with TEC .. I can hear the hammer pounding another nail into their coffin.

#25- Renz-
Prayers for the people of this diocese are indeed in order.
For those who wonder how, as #34 asks, a congregation could allow this, I think the question really is, how could a hierarchical church allow this?  Rev. Forrester has taken advantage of the absence of a diocesan bishop.  But in truth, the episcopal leadership of this diocese has been very progressive for a very long time.  I rather imagine that the late +Jim Kelsey would not have allowed things to get THIS bad, but he was fully supportive of “interfaith” efforts, and of course is widely quoted for condoning Forrester’s walking the paths of Christianity and Buddhism together. +Tom Ray (retired diocesan of N. Michigan) has been overseeing the diocese in the interim, and if he has said a word, no one has heard about it in my part of the UP.
  The point is, that the congregation here has no one to turn to.  The 3 other paid clergy in this diocese are all on board with Forrester.  All of the functionaries of the diocese (ALL) signed onto Forrester’s Dar statement (and before someone challenges me on whether he wrote it, well, “go ahead, make my day”) which includes “affirmations” that among them deny the Creeds and reject the pastoral authority of the Anglican Communion.  These same 4 paid clergy <strike>chose</strike> “discerned” those volunteers who would be trained and ordained as priests and deacons (literally dozens- the tiny parish here has 4 priests and 3 deacons).  A few more or less orthodox volunteers slipped through, but they are much more worried about losing their parish by rocking the boat than they are about what Forrester is doing in Marquette.
  So, who are the laity to turn to? The clergy are on board with Forrester, the standing committee is on board with Forrester.  Some (reportedly, although I admit to not having seen a letter they say they sent last spring) tried to turn to the PB, who is an old classmate of Forrester.  She was here in October of 2007 and seemed quite content when visiting Forrester in Marquette.
  So please do pray for all in this diocese.  The Church needs to do some housecleaning here.  Rev. Forrester may be the worst of the bunch, but the heretical strain runs deep in this diocese.  The bishops of the Episcopal Church need to decide if the church is to have any limits at all, or if it is indeed to be a UU church with fancy vestments.  If it is to remain Christian, they MUST begin to assess these situations, and not let dioceses do whatever they want. IF this is a hierarchical church, it is time for the hierarchy to show itself.

Thank you Renz #25, I share BabyBlue’s comment that your post is one of the most poignant.  All these false teachers roaming around EPAC are taking good souls along on quite a ride.  We need to pray for them all. 

I also second Sarah’s words of caution in #32.  We need to be clear that when we comment on these matters, we must focus on what these people teach.  It is their actions and statements, not their person, that we should focus on.  I admit it is frequently hard to seperate the two and I myself am often guilty.

Good choice of words, tmjmcmahon, “Is the church to have any limits at all or is it indeed to be a UU church with fancy vestments?”

What exactly is an “enneagram interview”?  (see the pdf link of the bulletin)

The sad thing is, I still honestly believe in the absence of the pressure exerted by exposing this fraud, most bishops and standing committees would look at his sermons and his liturgical machinations and view him as being really cool and avant-garde and a marvelous candidate to be a TEC bishop.  He’s probably closer to most bishops’ beliefs than say, Pope Benedict.  He just made the mistake of revealing his rather interesting viewpoints in public instead of over cocktails at the bishop’s house.

Obviously the Koran reading should not have been in the service, which shows a lack of judgement. Of course, myself I have never done or said anything that could be misinterpreted ( or distorted) by some one else.

He must be surrounded by non christians. Silly man.

Suppose a young person were to walk through the door of this parish on a Sunday morning seeking to learn what Jesus was all about, with all the Qu’anic readings, meditation meetings, Gnostic gospels, deep breathing, multi-faith prayers, topped off with a Forrester sermon would they leave any the wiser? 

That I suppose is the tragedy, that they would probably be better advised to go down the road to the Catholics or the Baptists, or the Community church or well really anyone else.  There is a great deal of housekeeping to sort out sadly.

Village Idiot,

Replacing the New Testament reading with a passage from the Quran shows more than bad judgement. What are you saying? That we’re harshing Forrester’s mellow?

Not to mention being invited to have an enneagram interview with the Rev Forrester!

Sarah, who is certainly the Absolute Meanest Blogger in the World, but who can pretend to be very nice, writes:

BUT please don’t make wild statements about his person, such as “Foul Denizen Of Hell, Release From Your Tentacles the burning coal of Perversion.” Or whatever.

I agree completely. There is no need to state that which is perfectly obvious.

Jesus “said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men.” (Matt 16:23, etc.)

Then we’ve got, “He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8)

Next, “Saul, who is also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him [Elymas the magician] and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?” (Acts 13:9-10)

Lastly, “...even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” (2 Cor 11:14)

So, who would I (who does not have the gift of discernment of spirits) be to call him or others, “Son of Satan” or something like that?

#58 The Rev Forrester is not Satan - that is unnecessary Ralph

TO CLARIFY - the texts to which #43 and #47 refer are NOT Christian texts - but are heretical texts - and their use would be equal to using the Koran, Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan texts to a Christian service.

In addition, Christians (lay and clergy) should not attend an inter-faith WORSHIP services…and should not use oagan texts for devotional and teaching purposes. 
God is very clear about worshipping pagan gods and worshipping with pagans.

Another point - We may respect people of other religions as human beings are creations of God, made in the image of God, given life by Him.  However, all humans are born spiritually dead and fallen.  We must be re-born into life in Jesus Christ.  Until one is regenerated or re-born spiritually, he has not entered into the Kingdom of Heaven, cannot see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3).  Unless a person believes on the Name of the Lord and has been baptised into the Church, he or she is not a ‘child of God’ or brother or sister of Jesus Christ.

Unregenerate people are a law unto themselves, their lives weighed and judged by God.

On a Sunday morning in an Epicopal Church it shoud be o.k. to assume that a service is Christian in nature. Has this church in Michigan now aligned with the UU’s? Unless it was specifically noted in advance that that particular service was going to be interfaith and that the Quran will replace the New Testament readings, it shouldn’t be done.

Yes, things can be misinterprted. However, this seems to be a pattern of Rev. Forrsters to depart from the prayerbook, to revise the regular liturgies and to proclaim things that are not Christian doctrine.  When folks complains, some people pop up on here and says he’s misunderstood. Does he want to be an Epicopal priest or is his underdtanding more in line with the UU’s? If the latter he should not take vows as a Bishop to affirm the teaching of the church; He should not be a Bishop. That doesn’t mean, of course, that he’s not a nice man or an interesting, intelligent person. His innovations are certainly theologically creative. ;^)

Floridian,

Agreed. Gospel of Judas????

Fenelon-
By definition and canon, you cannot have an “interfaith Eucharist”.  This was not Evensong or Morning Prayer, which are occasionally used ecumenically or non-denomination-ally.  “Interfaith” itself is an experiment and leads almost by definition to a Universalist service (which again, by definition, cannot be a Eucharist or Mass).

subscribe

Hi, Greg-

As I remarked in one of my comments earlier, I didn’t think it should not be done as a regular Sunday morning service. The interfaith services I have attended were on a weekday evenings and were not Eucharistic services.

Sorry, I see the comment was by tjmmcmahon, not Greg.

Sorry for all the typos…when I get steamed, my typing suffers…

Here’s a couple of Saturday palate-cleansers to refocus us from the heretics to help us prepare for Holy Week, to worship The One and Only Jesus - who died for us:

SUNDAY’S COMING:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naajYZSbWdw&NR=1

THAT’S MY KING:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upGCMl_b0n4

#29 I will try to answer this question to the best of my recollection.  The long time rector of St. Paul’s retired at the end of the year in 2006 and in January 2007, KTF was chosen by the Vestry to serve as “Interim Rector/Ministry Developer.”  On the Sunday of Memorial Day Weekend, the Ministry Support Team was commissioned by Jim Kelsey.  The following Sunday Jim was killed returning to Marquette from a visit to the congregation in Sault Ste. Marie.  I believe it was the Lenten liturgy of that year that first contained significant departures from the BCP on a routine basis (i.e., for the liturgical season).  By July of that year, members of the congregation began to get rather vocal about requesting a return to the BCP - an expected return did not occur with the Easter season liturgy and then the Pentecost season liturgy.  It is, therefore, hard to determine what or how much Jim Kelsey would have allowed and how much of KTF’s pressing forward with his vision of the future church occurred because of the absence of a bishop.  In any case, at my last meeting at the congregation in October, I listened to three of the elder matriarchs of the congregation (altar guild members each and every one) plead for the inclusion of the language and tradition that they love - this was at a liturgy planning meeting where an individual (not KTF) snapped at me saying, “Not EVERYONE can plan liturgy!”  I began my LOA shortly after that and have since made the decision not to return to the congregation.

Has anyone here every heard of CONTEXT?

How can you sit in judgment over Mr. Forrester without knowing several essential factors. (1) What was his motive in substituting a Qur’anic passage for the day’s epistle? (3) Is there anything in that Qur’anic reading that is inconsistent with traditional Christian teachings? (I think not). (2) Why did he invite a Muslim to speak to the congregtion. (He cannot be called a “preacher” because he was not licensed by the bishop.) (3) What did the guest speaker actually say and how was his message appropriate in the circumstances?

Once, the Bishop of Narjan and a group of Christians went to Medina to meet with the Prophet Muhammad to discuss their relations with the young Muslim community. It was during lent. While they were there,  Muhammad allowed them to celebrate their lenten liturgy in his mosque (the one where today his remains are enterred).

The Qur’an succinctly describes the core Muslim beliefs about Jesus in this way: “The
Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, is a messenger of Allah, and His word which He cast into Mary, and a spirit
from Him.”

The Roman Catholic catechism is perhaps instructive:
“841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God,
mankind’s judge on the last day’.”

That teaching was proclaimed during the Vatican II Council in the 1960s after the bishops present accepted it by a vote of 2,151 for and only 5
against.

That same Council also declared the following:

“The Church regards with respect the Muslims, who worship the One, Living, Subsistent, Merciful, Almighty God who created the heavens and
the earth, who spoke to men. They strive to submit wholeheartedly to God’s commandments…even as Abraham submitted himself to God, whose obedience is often recalled in the Islamic religion. Although they do
not recognize Jesus as God, they do venerate him as a prophet and they honour his virgin mother, Mary…. They await the Day of Judgment, when God will reward all those risen from the dead. They hold in high regard the moral life and worship God,particularly by prayer, charity and fasting.”

Surely there are among a people worthy of such respect some whose message deserves to be endorsed by Christian clergy and heard by Christian assemblies.

How can you rush to judgment agains Mr. Forrester without knowing if his actions had any legitimate magisterial or pastoral objective with regard to the souls in his care?

The tone of some of you suggests that he invited a priest of Baal to come into his church and sacrifice an altar boy in plain view of the congregation.

I don’t hold with interfaith services or interfaith prayer at all; that is to reverse Pentecost.  Christian prayer is praise of the Triune God as inspired by the Holy Spirit.  It is not the babble of many tongues.  As Christians, it is unseemly at best to offer praise to Nimrod’s tower or Shiva’s lingam ... or to pray with those who do “as if” these are complementary.

When the blind lead the blind, then tragically, both will end up in a ditch.
Paul said to Timothy, “As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer.”

But if nobody in the hierarchy is actually guarding the sacred deposit, then who is going to stop the likes of KTF from teaching heresy? In the TEC hierarchy, knuckle-dragging, misogynist homophobes who actually believe the sacred truths of scripture are, at best, barely tolerated.

His election was bizarre. This transcends the bizarre, and enters into the totally unacceptable. Apparently the Qur’an now ranks equally with the Holy Bible as sacred scripture and the inspired Word of God. This man must NOT be approved for consecration!

I said nothing about people of other faiths giving messages that don’t deserve to be heard by Christian clergy or assemblies, nor did I say anything about a “priest of Baal”. I have attended and been involved in interfaith servives and discussion groups. They were not on a Sunday mornings, and as I remarked, Rev. Forrester has a pattern of departing from the Book Of Common Prayer. Are you a person of another faith than Christianity? Is it appropriate for you to comment on how Christian clergy should conduct their services? Yes, I think discernment and judging is appropraite as to where Forrseter is coming from and where he stands as far as Christianity, if he wants to be Bishop for the whole church. In fact, evidently some people in his congregation didn’t like the innovations either. Don’t they get a say, or is appropriate for a new priest in his first year to go against the tradtion of the church and its standard liturgy?

#69, we know the context.  It was supposed to be a Christian liturgy of the Eucharist in an Episcopal church.  Forrester replaced the New Testament with the Koran.  He should be defrocked for that action alone.  As to the sacrifice of altar boys, that seems to be fine with a great many priests and at least one bishop of TEC.  As to quoting out of context, you might take a bit closer look at the relationship between Rome and Islam.

I stand by my comments and will wait for someone like Dean Munday, Dr. Witt or Matt Kennedy+ to explain further.

Syncretism is a subtle serpent and that is why God said, don’t marry or worship with pagans.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am not an Episcopalian.  I have never been one, and I do not plan to become one.  If it makes a difference, I am a Byzantine Catholic.  The Byzantine Rite is one of the five principal rites of the Universal Catholic Church, and while we are not ROMAN Catholic, we are Catholic, and we are in communion with the Apostolic See at Rome.  Now that I have that out of the way, I will proceed to my substantive comment.
Frankly, I do not understand why you are concerned about Bishop-elect Forrester.  I have read his website, and his explanation and denial of the charge that he is a Buddhist.  I am willing to accept his denial at face value.  In my view, he appears to be a typical Episcopalian, who does not take a strong moral position on anything, and who thinks that everything is acceptable, particularly if it can be presented in the context of a beautiful ceremony.  After all, Reason #3 of the “top ten reasons to be an Episcopalian,” lately attributed to Robin Williams, is “All of the pageantry—none of the guilt.”
Bishop-elect Forrester’s willingness to use the Quran provides further evidence that he is an Episcopalian, not that he is a Buddhist.  A Buddhist (along with a Hindu) more than most people know how intolerant and wicked the Islam religion is, and probably would have too much self respect for themselves and their fellow sufferers to debase their own religious services in that manner.  An Episcopalian, on the other hand, would think the “words are beautiful” and completely disregard the suffering that has been caused by the effort to implement Quranic law in the world.
If anyone would like to correct my view of the Episcopal Church, I would welcome it.  But when has the church EVER taken a moral stand on anything?

Renz, bb, et all.
I wonder Renz, are the BCPs still in the pews in Marquette, or do they just bring them out when there are visitors? When the dust settles, perhaps we could organize some “CARE packages” for the Episcopalians of Marquette- a BCP, a Bible that is recognized by the church, things like that, for every family that needs one. At least in the local parish, they manage their way through Rite II- and actually, through the current Lent, they have included the Litany and/or Stations.

In the old days we used to study the Offices of Instruction before being confirmed (I am sure in many places, they still do).  Perhaps step one in this diocese should be to replace all the made up prayers to “the God of Wisdom and Imagination” with this:

O Almighty God, who hast built thy Church upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the head corner-stone; Grant us so to be joined together in unity of spirit by their doctrine, that we may be made an holy temple acceptable to thee; through the same Jesus Christ our Lord. (BCP 1928, p. 290)

It is tragically comic that in order to be confirmed in 1964, you had to have a stronger commitment to the doctrine of the church than is required for ordination or consecration in 2009.

#76:

If anyone would like to correct my view of the Episcopal Church, I would welcome it.  But when has the church EVER taken a moral stand on anything?

Well Apocalypse, if you’ll look around here a little, you’ll see a whole forum full of Episcopalians who take a moral stand against this sort of thing. So, now that you have that out of your system, did you wish to contribute anything to this discussion?

Qalam96,

Whatever “context” this may have been set in is irrelevant. As monologistos points out, “we know the context.  It was supposed to be a Christian liturgy of the Eucharist in an Episcopal church.  Forrester replaced the New Testament with the Koran.  He should be defrocked for that action alone.” There’s really not much else that needs to be added to that. We’re not talking about a “blessing of the pets” service after church, or a youth group screening of “Godspell.”

If you want to talk about “context,” though, don’t tell us we shouldn’t be so narrow in our interpretation of what Forrester is doing, while not being willing yourself to consider the broader “context” of Islam, which calls those who believe Christ was crucified, died, buried, and resurrected “fools.” You want “context”? Ask the nearest imam what Islam’s view of Jesus Christ is, then tell us that the Quran has any place in a Christian eucharistic service.

As “progressives” in the church keep telling us - the ones who bristle at creeds and confessions, and objections over gay priests and same-sex blessings -
we “do” our theology in liturgy; our liturgy IS our theology.

Fine.

But if our liturgy IS our theology, then Kevin Thew Forrester’s theology evidently includes Islam. Now the question before the House of Bishops and all the diocesan standing committees is: Is a man who lifts New Testament readings out of the liturgy, and replaces them with passages from the Quran, fit to be consecrated a bishop in what is claimed to be a Christian church?

#76, too broad a brushstroke to say “..when has the church EVER taken a moral stand on anything.”  There are many faithful Episcopalians who have born witness to our Lord with their lives.  There are some here who certainly are attempting to take a moral stand ... it is the purpose of this site.

Athanasian, I recognize, respect, and agree with the views of the members of this group.  My point is that the Episcopal Church has had serious theological problems for years, as many persons here have pointed out, and it is nothing new.  Is it possible to reform it, or should those who disagree with it merely move on and quit trying to beat a dead horse?

Monologistos, by the term “Episcopal church” I was referring to the hierarchy.  I do not question that there are individual Episcopalians who are faithful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  My only concern is that they cannot nourish that faith and also remain faithful to PECUSA.  Thus, at what point should they stop trying to be “Episcopalians” and instead, find some more appropriate means of expressing their Christian faith?

For those of us who can’t “swim the Tiber”, but insist on using wine for the Eucharist, there are pitifully few choices here in the US.  hence why I’ve stuck with an orthodox parish in a very progressive diocese.

Apocalypse,

Defending the faith is the point of the battle, and some of us have decided not to roll over and play dead, or shuffle off to somebody else’s church. I don’t see why that needs explaining, or why it should be cause for bewilderment on any Christian’s part.

OK, campers, an attempt to explain the context…
First and foremost this is a guess based on my rapidly aging memory.  I believe that that particular Sunday fell in the midst of what is traditionally an ecumenical week.  There were plans in the works last fall for doing something similar during that week this year.  KTF and others in the congregation wanted to broaden the concept beyond ecumenicalism towards interfaith.  I would be willing to bet that this was the context in making those choices (good, bad or canonically wrong).  The “preacher” is a professor at the local university and a regular attendee at St. Paul’s.  He is a lovely man who is on a unique faith journey.  He does not have a muslim community to belong to and has felt welcomed at St. Paul’s.  The motivation behind this service I’m certain was to promote better understanding between Christians and Muslims.  I can’t speak to the correctness of the choices under rubrics or canon law.  KTF makes great claims towards making St. Paul’s a leader in the emerging church movement.

By replacing the New Testament in favor of the Koran, Forrester is implying their equivalence, i.e., the Koran is also the inspired Word of God.  I guess it is also possible that Forrester views neither as the Word of God, but merely as equally instructive for Christians.  Note the reader says at the end “Hear what the Spirit is saying”, suggesting that the Holy Spirit is the source of the Koran.  This is heretical.  BTW is it just me or is this passage a totally incoherent piece of nonsense?  I cant’ make heads or tails of it…

Still an Episcopalian and still embarrassed that heretic priests like this are tolerated…

Thanks for the background, renz.

I have heard of the term “emerging church” but I don’t know what it means. Emerging from what going into what? I’ll have to google that term.

#81:

Is it possible to reform it, or should those who disagree with it merely move on and quit trying to beat a dead horse?

Opinions are divided about that question, Apocalypse, as you’ve no doubt gathered by reading the posts here. Some faithful Anglicans believe the Holy Spirit is calling them to begin anew in fresher pastures. Other faithful Anglicans believe the Holy Spirit is calling them to stand and fight to the last man.

I am one of the latter. This is my “little stone bridge” (as Sarah says) and I’ll be d***ned if I’ll abandon the church of my fathers to the infidel. At the same time, I rejoice to see the courage of those who have chosen to leave, and are spreading the true faith as they go.

So I’ll stay here and keep beating the dead horse. That’s my job. Maybe I can keep the devil busy for a few minutes while my brothers and sisters dig in somewhere else.

renzinthewoods,

Thank you for that information. I have no doubt that the Muslim speaker is a decent man. I have no doubt that Kevin Forrester is a decent man. I have no problem with churches wanting to promote understanding of each other’s faiths. I realize you’re not lobbying for Forrester’s actions here, so let me address this to the rest of the crowd:

The problem is when a Christian church offers up as Christianity something that is not only not of the faith, but actively and intensely hostile to the faith, which is what Islam is. Islam denies the divinity of Christ, and mocks those who believe in His resurrection as “fools.”

There is simply no reconciling Christianity and Islam, so while I’m no fan of attempts at “interfaith” or “ecumenical” efforts, I can at least understand why some people would want to hold, for example, seminars and workshops. I can even grit my teeth if they do it on church property, say in the parish hall or in a classroom.

What we’re talking about here, though, is in the church nave itself, in the eucharistic service itself. We are talking about that hour during which we worship Jesus Christ Himself.

Our role as Christians is to witness to the saving grace of Jesus Christ, to Muslims and anyone else who will listen. Jesus has not told us to go forth into all nations, weaving threads of this strange faith and that into our worship. Unless Kevin Forrester is helping the Muslim gentleman on his journey to accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, as opposed to offering him some mish-mash of Christianity and Islam that is in fact neither, then he is doing him a grave disservice. He has departed from Christianity - “orthodox” or “progressive” - altogether; never mind the doctrine, discipline and worship of the Episcopal Church.

Greg, I’m curious why you are no fan of ecumenical efforts which would be Christian denominations working together?  I can understand your argument against Interfaith efforts a bit more - in light of merging them into a time of the week that is especially set aside for our faith.  The “Seders” that some Christian congregations will be holding next week are equally problematic for me.  It seems to be an Interfaith effort that usurps 2000 years of Jewish history and calls it our own.

This man appears to be a “useful idiot” for TEC. They’ll throw him under the bus (a broken clock is right twice a day) and then say to the world, “See, see . . .  we’re really Christian in our belief after all!” Then they’ll pass the blessedness of man-boy-love-acts at General Convention 09, and perhaps affirm the “blessing of aboriton,” all to be followed by another Windsor Study Group, more Fog du ++Rowan, and a pained denunciation from the ACI. Wake me up when this is all over, puhlease.

#11 TEC has not stood up as a collective body for a Christian belief in a long, long time.  It has stood up for many a still-smoldering, reeking of sulphur belief in recent decades.  No, one courageous bishop with the right kind of integrity (not Integrity) did the right thing, as +Wolf has done consistently.  Would that the rest of TE"c”‘s shepherds were such as +Wolf!

renzinthewoods,

The Episcopal left likes to label efforts such as Forrester’s “ecumenical’ when in fact they go well beyond ecumenism. I’m not referring to truly ecumenical efforts between Christian denominations.

#68 Renzinthewoods - Thank you very much for explaining.  That is very helpful.

I would say that I have great respect for Islam which is practiced very differently in differently in different places: the concentration on and awe of God, the regular pattern of daily prayer, the respect for modest and moral behaviour.

I think it is different from Christianity in that Christianity is alone as far as I know in preaching that God came among us, reached out to us that we might have a personal relationship with him, a close relationship as of a Father with his children.

There is a place for interfaith dialogue and learning about each other, but it relies on learning what we have in common and honestly recognising where the differences are and respecting them.  To try to meld different faiths into one is to make a mush of all of them.

Please bear with me - this is a lengthy comment.

Qalam96’s comment (#69) is quite correct about context - and the context of this quranic substitution for the New Testament epistolary reading is an allegedly Christian eucharist in which that reading is responded to in the same was as a reading from the canonical Scriptures.  (Though with a response not found in the prayerbook that is redolent of Luther’s remark about the Enthusiasts, that they had “swallowed the Holy Ghost, feathers and all”.)

Qalam96 fails at his (her?) own admonition to consider context, however.  The particular paragraph (¶ 841) quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church is an expansion of a portion of this paragraph from the Vatican II document, Lumen Gentium:

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Note that nowhere do the bishops gathered in council suggest that Islam or another other religion is equivalent to the Christian faith as a way of salvation.

Qalam96 also fails to note the context of the paragraph 841 itself within the Catechism; viz., under the heading “The Church and non-Christians”, which is introduced with the sentence from Lumen Gentium,

Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.

Note the use of the words, “not yet”. I suggest those words are there for a reason.

This section from the Catechism, from which Qalam96 has quoted (prooftexted?) paragraph 841 concludes:

To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church.  The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation.  The Church is “the world reconciled.”  She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.”  According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.

This section of the Catechism does not in any way deny the reality of the seeking after God that occurs in other religions (or perhaps, no religion at all!) and that those seekers may indeed be found by God, but it does emphatically state that “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (¶ 846).

And only the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments bear faithful witness to Jesus Christ.

Greg,
While of course you are correct, I would hope that we could all recognize that our friend renz has been through real trials as a member of Forrester’s congregation.  Most of us have had strong orthodox upbringings or education (or both).  He has been through an indoctrination into Forrester-ianism for several years, and through the mercy of our Lord, and through his own efforts, has recognized the error of much of what is happening in this diocese, and in particular his own (former, I think) parish in Marquette.
So let us extend our prayers for renz, and indeed for all of those in that parish who have been run out of their church by liturgical changes and the single minded rector intent on founding a new religion within the Episcopal Church.

Dear Greg,

“That we’re harshing Forrester’s mellow?”

Just got back from my pagan rituals at the store.
No, I think your roasting his toast. Now I am sure there are a few out there who have misunderstood the Bible over the years. Matter of fact, I once heard it was a bit of a process in itself. But I have heard of predictions of the ” end” times before, and some of these postings seem similar.

Plus I have no knowledge of Forrester’s intentions other than what you imply are his intentions. It is a dangerous implied and loaded allegation in these current days.

That would not be intellectually honest, by itself. Implying a sympathy to Islam on the part of Forrester would have more weight if you actually had him respond to it.
PS

“I respect all things that are holy”

Pope John Paul

RE: “Of course, myself I have never done or said anything that could be misinterpreted ( or distorted) by some one else.”

Yeh—yeh, that’s it.  Thew’s Buddhist lay ordination, his taking a Buddhist name, his insertion of the texts of the Inclusive Hebrew and NT into the lectionary readings, his re-writing the Trinity to equal me, soul and soul’s quest, or whatever the heck it was, his replacing the NT text with the Quran, his own collects, his deletion of the creed in the Eucharistic Sunday worship, his wretchedly syncretistic sermons, and all those other things—all of them have been “misinterpreted.”

This also makes crystal clear why Forrester mentions the presence of Muslims in the congregation in the Trinity Sunday sermon as though it were a regular occurrence.  No wonder their imam had no problem with their attendance!  No wonder no fatwah was issued on them or Forrester!  They almost might as well have been in a mosque, of which I imagine there are precious few in the UP.  Why bother when you’ve got the next best thing? 

Renz, I don’t think I can begin to imagine what you and the folks who begged for the morsel of a Prayer Book service once a month have gone through.  Maybe you can take your church and even your diocese back by simply staying away from ALL services in ALL the churches in the diocese (from which your $ will also then be absent) and simply gather to read appropriate lay-led Prayer Book services and Bible studies from reliable sources (http://www.thruthebible.org is a great free source for starters) until something is done to clean house.  Pray together for God to deliver His people, to drive away the predators from His sheep and to send faithful shepherds to lead them to rich grass and still, peaceful waters.  My prayers are with you as well!

#97 I have seen no one here suggesting ‘end times’ or dispensationalism here.

Roasting his toast??

Dear Sarah,
You obviously know far more about the man than I do. Have you researched some conservative biographies as well? Or is it just the progressive heretics?

“End Times” is a metaphor for awfulizing. Based on some of the tenor of posts there seem to be some who wish the man ill will.

Replacing the creed would seem to be significant if true. Or is that out of context?

“I respect all things that are holy”

Pope John Paul

Com’on Sarah-

Thew Forrester has been minsinterpreted. Anyone can see reading his sermons and liurgies that’s he’s a latter day Episcopal version of Dwight Moody. ;^)

Renzinthewoods, given the rather dire situation you’ve sketched for us, I think that Milton’s suggestion (#99) might be the best course for all of you to take.

Not for the sake of protest, but for the sake of worshiping “in spirit and in truth” and for the sake of bearing witness to that Truth.  And were you to do this, you should be clear about your intentions, otherwise you risk being misunderstood merely as splitters and malcontents.

There is nothing to prevent your gathering in one another’s home to say Morning or Evening Prayer on a Sunday.  And while it might be preferable to have a Lay Reader to lead the service (who would have had some at least basic training in how to officiate at the Daily Offices?), any lay person, suitably prepared, may serve as officiant.  As to sermons, you would do better simply to have the unencumbered canonical Scriptures read than to have them “interpreted” by Mr Forrester.  And there are resources, both in print and on the internet, that provide theologically sound sermons, based on the lectionary readings, that one of the group could read to the assembled company.

It does mean a eucharistic fast, a matter of considerable gravity, but then you are fasting from a local Table which might not actually be the Lord’s (see 1 Corinthians 10).

“I respect all things that are holy”

Pope John Paul

You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Are you saying that Islam is holy? Surely you’re not saying that JP2 thought Islam was holy.

Make some sense, please.

Slightly off topic..

My reaction to any passage of the koran is always “what the hell?”

What the hell was that saying? Could it be any more garbled, disjointed and unintelligible than that? It gives me a freakin headache.

If there is a bright side is that people would see the difference between the comprehensible and refined expression of the New Testament compared to the nonsense found in the koran.

Its funny, but even muslims acknowledge that the koran can only be “truly appreciated” in Arabic. I ask you what kind of holy book is so limited that it can only impress in its original language?

A good point to remember is that the Bible is impressive in all aspects, in all of its translations. Its beauty and clarity of expression translates into any language and can be appreciated by anyone in their own native tongue.

A final thought, I think its interesting that the Hebrew literature found in the Old Testament is based on anything which would be hard to translate into another cultural context. Take the Psalms in particular. They are based on rhythm not rhyme. What is more easily translatable, hum? Personally, I see the hand of God in it, don’t know about anyone else

Excuse me, I meant to say that “Hebrew literature is NOT based on anything that would be hard to translate into another cultural context.”

No, this Forrester chappie isn’t Satan - he’s not clever enough by half - which is why he’s doing Satan’s work for him.

#59, Pageantmaster. I see the hand of God in all of this, in the sense that the hand of God was involved in the trials of Job. I very strongly, and consistently, sense that God has sent Satan to test TEC, and all of Christianity.

In that sense, KTF and others do seem to be working as agents of God. KTF shows us, with clarity, the consequences of antinomianism taken to an extreme that only a few years ago would have been regarded as satire or an April Fool joke.

Countless people, including myself, have been brought closer to the true teachings of Christianity by their actions, and by the orthodox response.

Just as the writings of the post-apostolic heretics brought the Church Fathers together in the great councils, and got them to write the fundamental statements of the Holy Tradition, I see the present mess as a stimulus for another Great Awakening. It’s already been happening. I think I read that Saddleback Church baptized 800 adults in one day not long ago. My little parish baptizes 1-2 adults a year. Anglicanism needs to move on, and it is doing so.

KTF has been walking the path of a duck (together with Christianity), as well as quacking like a duck and honking like a goose. Perhaps he is not a duck. I don’t know. Maybe God will send him to a competent spiritual director who can help him figure out what he’s being called to do. In the meantime, we on earth need to be careful about embracing the work of apparent waterfowl.

This isn’t my blog. I will take your admonition as a vote for my being the Meanest Commenter on the Planet. Our site hosts have the authority and power to edit or delete our comments. If they do so with anything I write, then I shall not take offense. Simply another affirmation of my inherent meanness and unrefined bluntness.

Qalam96, as a Christian I cannot even enter the cities of Medina and Mecca.

I won’t say all of what I believe about Islam because I have reason to believe that to do so might well result in an attack on this website.

Let’s just say that I don’t see any points of contact between Islam and Christianity, unless said contacts are between liberal Muslims and liberal Christians. Oh, wait a second - there’s one thing. Islam explicitly, utterly and absolutely condemns homosexual practice. Hmmm…

Greg

Try reading Pope Johns’ works. It doesnt mean that Islam itself is holy

re #21

Andrew, that is so easy to answer.

1) Islam is not Christianity. Therefore it must be better.

2) Its so earthy, simple and bohemian if you just ignore all the stuff that you mentioned. I mean what would be more attractive to the ageing hippie or hippie wannabe than going about in loose robes and sandals, squatting on the floor and prostrating yourself to the Great Abstraction of the Universe? Its all about freedom from that awful Christian particularity, man!

Village Idiot,

Let me also disabuse you of the tactic of declaring speculation on Forrester’s theology or intentions off-limits because “we don’t know the man.” We’ve heard that more times than I care to count around here, and we know it for what it is: An attempt to silence any criticism of him based on a non-sequitur.

I doubt Forrester is known personally by more than a handful of bishops and a few people on the various standing committees around the country. Does this mean they should wave him through without any examination of his words and actions? I doubt any presidential candidate is known personally more than 0.00001% of the American electorate - does this mean no one should presume to make their decision on his worthiness based on his words and actions? Of course not - it’s a ridiculous premise.

Liturgy is precisely how Anglicans broadcast their “intent” - how they express their theology to the world. We don’t have to have the man’s cel number in our speed dial - we have his collects and eucharistic bulletins. We have recordings of his sermons. We know his intent, and we know it by his work: It’s to redefine Christianity into some incoherent syncretistic swirl of goop.

It’s true I would have to know the man to make assertions about his character. I can’t, for example, say “Kevin Forrester is unkind” based on the way he mangles the liturgy.

That’s not the question before the church, though. The question before the church is: Has Kevin Forrester show in his words and deeds that he is a defender of the faith sufficient to sit in the House of Bishops? The answer to that is very clearly “No.” This is not to say he won’t get the required consents - the HoB already houses more than a few rank heretics - but we are in a new era when it comes to consecrating TEC bishops, both in the way the church relates to the wider communion, and what its choices say to its members about what kind of church it intends to become.

Qualam96, you mention the gracious treatment Mohammed extended to the Christians at Medina.  Quote for us, please, the gracious treatment of the Jews at Medina by Mohammed.  A quick Google search on “medina mohammed jews christians” turns up a consensus that when Mohammed could not convert by evangelism, he eventually resorted to driving 2 groups of Jews from Medina into exile and the men from the 3rd group were beheaded after surrendering while the women and children were made slaves.  Christians were not allowed to preach the Gospel, and were forced to pay tax, dhimmi, to be tolerated and allowed to live.  The same is true today in Muslim dominated countries.

BTW, did anyone else notice that during last year “Lessons and Carols” service by Kings College, Cambridge, some of the Bible readings were replaced by readings from various other sources? Though, IIRC they were all at least readings related to Christianty and non were from the scriptures of false religions.

Since there is already a Mormon in the HoB, I fail to see why putting in a Buddhist or Muslim—or atheist for that matter—is anything new.

Dear Chris,

Obviously you have done some homework. Thats why I’m the Village Idiot, and a layman.

But clearly, heretics are appointed ultimately by the diocese they come from. They are a reflection of the parishioners, mood and education that is provided.

Or maybe, if Forrester is as corrupt as you portay, he is just a reflection of the pews.

I think Renzinthewoods would disagree about your reflectio comment, VI.

VI
Bishops are made by the Church, not the Diocese (Hence consents and laying on of hands by other Diocesan Bishops)

I tend to blame the hierarchy rather than the pew-folks for a mess like this.  Episcopals until the 60s or so could depend on the Bishops keeping the system in bounds.  The pew-folks would have to learn to be more like Baptists in order for them to control the hierarchs.

Village Idiot,

The orthodox Anglicans around here have long accepted that we bear much of the blame for leaving our church undefended, and allowing heretics and false teachers to take control of the levers of power. That doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to mount a defense now.

Lets see, if parishioners discern their priests and the priests and diocese choose the agenda of the diocese, and ultimatley select a bishop, how is that not the pews?

Direcly or indirectly.

Ideally, bishops should not be a reflection of the people in the pews, but leaders of the people in the pews.  The problem is when they lead the people in the pews the wrong direction, and their fellow bishops are unwilling to discipline them.

Village Idiot,

I said we bear the blame. It *is* “in the pews*. The problem begins *in the pews*.

I will here rise to Thew Forrester’s defense.  He has been misinterpreted by many people!

He has been misinterpreted (most of all by himself) as being a believing Christian when his words show that he believes little, if anything, that defines Christianity as anything other than niceness.

He has been misinterpreted as being a Christian priest when he introduces strange doctrine rather than driving it out, and denies the divinity, virgin conception, and by omission the resurrection of Christ Himself, and changes the liturgy in violation of his priestly vows.  Forester’s mock ministry is obviously an elaborate piece of performance art, staged in St. Paul’s Marquette, coming soon to the entire diocese, with no set show times, into which the audience may come and go as they please.  Brilliant!

He has been misrepresented as a serious candidate for bishop in a Christian church.

Frankly, I think many people have cause to tremble at how grossly they have misrepresented Forrester, and should attempt to settle with him out of court before he sues them for slander and libel.  Perhaps David Booth-Beers could use a paying client if he has a little time to spare from his TEC pro bono ministry?

Perhaps the boiling frog would be a good image to ponder at this point.  They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water it will immediately jump out but if you put a frog into a pot of tepid water and begin to heat it to a slow boil it will remain and eventually be boiled to death.

In this analogy the members of the congregation are the frogs - the liturgical changes are the slow boil - at various points KTFs changes cranked up the heat a bit too fast and some of the frogs jumped.

It is very difficult to wrap your brain around the situation up here if you come from a large urban diocese.  We are about 27 congregations spread out over hundreds of square miles - the majority of those congregations have ASA of under two dozen.  The entire diocese has four official seminary trained clergy in hired positions (five if you count KTFs wife, though her participation officially is to a much smaller degree than the other missioners).  There hasn’t been a bishop in over 20 months now.

There are enough individuals in the congregation of St. Paul’s who are willing to move forward in the name of this “emerging church” stuff (in all respect to the emerging church folks out there, I really don’t have a handle on it to know if this is an appropriate use of that term or one of convenience on the part of KTF) that KTF has been allowed to continue with his new and improved liturgy.  However, there is also a large contingent of elderly cradle Episcopalians who are simply baffled and frustrated by all the changes.

I personally find some of KTFs “heresy” interesting to be frank - however, what initially drew me to the TEC was the concept of the middle way - the tension held between two poles - I would have had little problem with posing some of his theology as adult forum material, I would have had no problem with occasional experimentation with the service, what I have objected to is what I see to be an outright denial of “the middle way” despite the requests of a healthy number of the congregation to return to straightforward liturgy from the BCP.

As for the remainder of the diocese - I know of no other congregation in the diocese that is not continuing to use the BCP as written along with all the traditional rubrics.  I believe many of those folks would be very surprised to sit in on a St. Paul’s service.

Athanasian wrote:
<blockquote>If you want to talk about “context,” though, don’t tell us we shouldn’t be so narrow in our interpretation of what Forrester is doing, while not being willing yourself to consider the broader “context” of Islam, which calls those who believe Christ was crucified, died, buried, and resurrected “fools.” You want “context”? Ask the nearest imam what Islam’s view of Jesus Christ is, then tell us that the Quran has any place in a Christian eucharistic service.<blockquote>

What a fine example of gratuitous calumny!

I was raised an Anglican in the Anglo-Catholic tradition and even spent a short period in seminary, mistakenly thinking I was called to Holy Orders. Later in my life (over thirty years ago) I left the Anglican Church and became a Muslim. Although there is controversy in Islam over the details of the crucifixion event, all Muslims nevertheless believe that Jesus ascended to heaven and will come again to earth to prepare mankind for God’s final judgment.  Although we consider Christians to be terribly mistaken about the divine nature and salvific mission of Jesus, we do not call them “fools”. If you speak the name of Jesus aloud in front of Muslims, they will immediately say “peace be upon him”. Mention the Blessed Virgin Mary and they will say “God be pleased with her”.

In the 10 century A.D., the Muslim philosopher Mansur al-Hallaj writes about the second coming of Jesus:

When Jesus comes down to Earth again, God will re-unite all the sancified souls. There will be two thrones for Jesus: one on Earth and another in Heaven. God, who will have written a definitive Book containing the rules of Prayer, Thithing, Fasting and Pilgrimage, will give the Book to Jesus by the hand of the Herald Angel and will say to Jesus: ‘Shine forth in the name of the Eternal Lord!’.”

We do NOT believe that Muhammad will return. Like the rest of us, his death is definitive.

Whether or not a passage from the Qur’an has any place in the Anglican Euharistic liturgy is a matter for Anglicans to decide. Nevertheless, I can think of many verses that would be at least as appropriate as the readings from the Apocrypha which have traditionally been found on some occasions in the Anglican liturgy.

On a related matter, let me say that in the light of my own spiritual journey, I do not understand how Ms. Redding can claim to be both a priest and a Muslim. If she accepts orthodox Muslim teachings about the nature and mission of Jesus, she cannot be faithful to her Anglican ordination vows. Conversely, if she believes what she avowed at her ordination, she cannot be an orthodox Muslim.

To go even further afield, although I have not been a practicing Anglican for over thirty years, I feel great sadness about the current direction of the U.S. Episcopal Church, which seems to be abandoning its cores values and tenets. The current Presiding Bishop seems to be a very arrogant and misguided person. I should think the teachings of most Muslim imams would be more acceptable to orthodox Anglicans than hers!

Sadly, we live in a very decadent age, in which a steadily decreasing number of people have real convictions about anything.

Thanks to all who have responded to my inquiry (#76).

I am going to take a break. This has been elucidating..

Whats the old saying?

Spread the Gospel,......... if necessary, use words.

“I respect all things that are holy”

Pope John Paul

Threshold of Hope

Dear Village Idiot:
  I remember being on an airplane a few years ago, when one passenger began acting odd, then a little “off color,” until he was finally harassing a female parishioner of mine with sexually inappropriate language and actions…The situation demanded that I involve myself to stop it. The woman had followed along for awhile and all of us thought it was under control, it wasn’t…Should we have acted sooner, yes, but we acted in time. Such is true with TEC. Sometimes appalling behavior can be so egregiously appalling that it takes a while to compute, and one hopes people will refrain without intervention.

Thank God for our brave bishop; Jack Iker that lead us out of TEC.

RE: “Have you researched some conservative biographies as well? Or is it just the progressive heretics?”

If you’re so curious about that, you’re welcome to stick around and read our articles—plus go back in the archives.  Otherwise feel free to ask the off-topic and irrelevant questions on an appropriate thread, and not the one about “Bishop-Elect Forrester Replaces New Testament Reading with Quran Passage . . . ” which after all has a rather specific subject.

Thanks.

To provide a contrast between the carp (rearrange letters slightly) that Forrester spews out to his flock and how a real shepherd tends and feeds Christ’s sheep in good times and bad when tough things happen, go here and read through the last month or so: 
http://binghamtongoodshepherd.blogspot.com/

And LISTEN to this:

http://binghamtongoodshepherd.blogspot.com/2009/04/brief-response-to-tragic-shootings-in.html

[comment deleted—off topic; this is your first warning]

Leaven in the bread—next time anyone attends a mosque service, do you think they’ll be exploring openmindedness and reading from the Holy Scriptures? 

It is a bit ironic, that as KTF is another nose into the tent for TEC, which becomes more inclusive everyday, THAT TEC #‘s keep going down?  What gives?

The sad thing is that there is a place for ecumenical references.  If he had been smart about selecting the quote, and had used it within the sermon, it could’ve worked.  In that setting, he could provide context that makes it clear that we can appreciate other cultures, without making them equal to Scripture.  It’s the fact that he used it to replace the New Testament reading, and then referred to it as being inspired by the Holy Spirit, equating it with Scripture, that is the problem.

The Diocese of El Camino Real was guilty of similar poor judgement this week.  The quarterly newspaper, Along the King’s Highway, attributed a church’s inspiration for outreach to a quote by the 14th Dalai Lama.  (see http://www.newanglicanchurch.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19).  While we share the value of altruism, our inspiration comes from the Great Commandment. 

This article, http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/aprilweb-only/113-51.0.html, does a much better job of demonstrating shared values with Buddhism, without undermining Christian faith.

Isn’t substituting a reading from the Quran (or any other book) contrary to the rubrics?

#125, not ALL Muslims believe Jesus will return to prepare mankind for the final judgment, whatever that means to you.  Quoting Masur Hallaj is a pretty good clue as to the status of your religion.  I happen to be fond of the fellow even as I am fond of Episcopalians but he was a Sufi ... considered heretical or even non-Muslim by most Muslims.  “I am God” requires more explanation than most will put up with.

I am still asking my annoying question:
What would be the tipping point at which faithful Anglican Christians in North America would say “enough’s enough” and do something drastic - such as take up the pitchforks and storm 815, several bishopscourts and even more rectories (don’t charge me with inciting a riot- just kidding), or simply leave the dead to bury the dead and move on with a reformed Anglican presence (read Province) in North America?

BTW, Village Idiot,
When Pope John Paul said: “I respect all things that are holy”, he did not mean “I accept and use all things that are holy.”

Christians may respect (out of civility) the Quran, or other “holy” things from other religions, BUT we do not treat such “holy” things as sacred and useful for us, neither do we read from such religious books at our worship. In Christianity, we have more than we need for a wholesome worship of the Everlasting Father.

When Christ went into the synagogue, he was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. They did not hand him a book from some Eastern mystics or pagan religious figures.

TEc has wandered from fascination with all things Eastern to accepting and using as much unchristian stuff as they could get away with. If not for the selection of this Forrester guy (whose theology alone disqualifies him to serve in a Vestry of a serious Christian church), very few would have known how rotten things are in TEc.
TEc is a joke and an embarrassment to Christianity.

Fr. Kingsley Jon-Ubabuco
Arlington Texas

#99 Milton - just saw your post. I enjoy Dr. McGee as well.

What would be the tipping point at which faithful Anglican Christians in North America would say “enough’s enough” and do something drastic…

Fr. Jon-Ubabuco (#138),

Something tells me that GC’09 is going to show forth plentiful “clarity” that will result in both action and exodus.  Nuance by the 815 wrecking crew seems out of the question now, so even the most complacent won’t be blinded by typical revisionist spin.  Sumpun’s gonna give <a >then and there</a>, I’ll wager.  OK Corral stuff.  TEC should have set the convention <a >here</a> I reckon.

#140 should include links to there:
http://anaheimoc.org/microsites/sites/EpiscopalChurch.asp

and here:
http://www.cityoftombstone.com/
respectively

Note to Greg G:  Seems like href’s aren’t working right now…

138, Spiro. At the risk of going off topic…
1. The debate over the KTF matter is actually a sign of life in TEC, as is the growing list of bishops and standing committees who have voted no. If TEC were dead, nobody would care.
2. Consider the situation of Sodom. There were not even 10 righteous people in Sodom. There are many righteous people still in TEC. TEC isn’t wholly infected.
3. TEC is the only Anglican province in the United States.
4. I know some who are looking to see what happens in Anaheim, when the bishops and laity of TEC assemble formally in the closest thing that we have to a Council. I fully expect Integrity to stage a BCP same-sex church wedding (maybe more than one), extending a finger in the face of the Anglican Communion and Lambeth 1.10. If the blasphemous practices of some dioceses become formally elevated to the level of doctrine or dogma, negating Lambeth 1.10, then conservatives will no longer be able to take their ordination vows. For me, that would be a sign of death.

Signing off, Rafe

Get right with God, or burn in hell. In the long view, earth really doesn’t matter much.

RE: “I am still asking my annoying question:  . . . “

I don’t find it an annoying question at all.  I’m just not interested in dialoguing with those who are out of TEC about it.  ; > )

One word—HERESY.  All other words and comments do not matter.

#118 - Bo,

I believe a provision for controlling and making the hierarchs accountable fiscally and theologically is being built into the new Province.

Here’s are a couple vignette of a REAL BISHOP, courtesy of Fr. Timothy Fountain. 

Reading these will make you weep… because this man was so Godly and also because he is such a contrast to many bishops today.

http://northernplainsanglicans.blogspot.com/2008/08/let-us-be-clothed-with-christ-for.html
http://northernplainsanglicans.blogspot.com/2008/08/niobrara-cross-for-rosebud-day-37.html

I have a question.

When Jesus says, “I have other sheep that are not of this fold,” can he possibly mean Muslims, who are People of the Book?

Yours is a statement diguised as a question. ;^) There were no Muslims when Jesus was around to say that, but he obviously ministered to non Gentiles.  That does not mean, IMO, that Christian ministers should be of two faiths simultaneously.

We can gloss over things all we want to, but when we look at the over-all unfolding picture, what we have here, becoming ever more bolder and self-evident, is that underlying the current outer veneer of robed-mitred Christianity of the Episcopal Church is the true inner reality of a blend of Gnosticism and Unitarianism.  The Christian Cup of Wine will slowly become diluted with Unitarian water with each passing year.  Eventually there will only be water.  The Wine of Christianity will no longer exist.

Whoops; meant “Jesus ministered to non Jews.”

I agree with you, Anglicanobserver.

I am not suprised that Bishop Forrester would subsitiute the New Testament for the Koran.  I mean anything goes at TEC including Buddist Bishops and clergy like Dean Brian Baker in Sacramento gives the Dali Lama asteem and make him just as important as Jesus Christ.  Clergy and Laity at TEC would worship mushrooms if there was a religion and ritual around it but talk about Jesus Christ and his transforming love is spritual abuse.  Who are they kidding?  They are sinners, just like you and me but they swim in it and persecute those with true faith in Jesus Christ.  I feel sorry for them and I hope they wake up before it’s too late.

Maybe not, #149/151

IF people in the pews will ever wake up and quit drinking the kool-aid…and repent of being tolerant of syncretism, heresy and apostasy; if they plait whips of cords and throw the thieves and moneychangers out of the temple.

Tolerance is stupidity.  We must learn to be completely intolerant, learn to speak and and to stand firm in the TRUTH.

Archbishop Daniel Deng of Sudan is a very good example…so are ++Akinola, ++Orombi and +Nazir-Ali.

OldVerger-

It also doesn’t mean that, IMO, Sunday Eucharistic services should be interfaith. If clergypeople want to be UU that’s fine; Don’t pose as Epicopalian or any other Christian minister if you’re really UU in heart and in spirit, think that Jesus was a “sacred flame of love created between Mary and Joseph” and use other non Orthodox Christian theology of the sort that Forrester has in his liturgies and sermons.

#142 And, Ralph, it’s a no-brainer which finger this will be:

I fully expect Integrity to stage a BCP same-sex church wedding (maybe more than one), extending a finger in the face of the Anglican Communion and Lambeth 1.10.

oldverger, whatever you’ve got burning in that censer, please don’t swing it around here.  You’ve obviously inhaled too big a whiff of it yourself if you think Jesus was referring to Muslims as a group by “I have other sheep that are not ot this fold.”  (Notwithstanding the ongoing salvation of individual Muslims in spite of Islam, not through it.)  Let’s give John 10:16 the context (one of the words most misused by revisionists) from which you kidnapped it.  Bolding and parenthetical insertions mine:

John 10 (New American Standard Bible)

John 10
Parable of the Good Shepherd
(Jesus makes it clear that He is the only way (door) to the Father, the doorkeeper, and that only those who “enter by the door”, i.e. proclaim Jesus as Lord God and the only Saviour, are true shepherds of the flock and not thieves and robbers or hirelings who abandon the sheep to predators.)
1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.  (What? This pasasge cannot be made to mean whatever we want it to mean?  Perhaps we should listen to Jesus exegete His own words in vs.7-17.  Fascinating!)

7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

12"He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

13"He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.

14"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

(the quoted verse back in context:)
<u>16"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.</u>

17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

Since Islam holds that Jesus is not fully who He said He was and is not God the Son and is not the only Saviour who saves us only by His grace and mercy in His atoning sacrifice, they are included with the Gentiles to whom Jesus seems to be referring.  Jesus’ revelation to Peter that believing Gentiles were included in salvation without becoming Jews was confirmed shortly after the Ascension by the falling of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius and his household and by Jesus’ laying hold of Saul of Tarsus, converting him and sending him to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles.  Peter gave further confirmation at the Jerusalem council in the debate whether Gentile converts must follow the Mosaic Law.  Yes, they shall be one flock, with one shepherd, Jesus Christ, God the Son, the risen Lord!

Something ancient and true to get you tuned up for Holy Week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLFN-RVpLtk&feature=player_embedded

[comment removed—off topic; feel free to email the blogmaster if you have questions about the site, or visit this page for your own tech help; commenter warned a second time]

First, truth is truth, no matter where you find it. and God is truth itself.
Second, Jesus Christ is truth. Mohammed, Buddha and other people are only truth, as they relate to Jesus Christ.
Third, this blog has gone so far afield that I can’t speak to all the things that are spoken here, but I’ll say this: Either the guy from North Michigan is totally wrong, or he is the next Presiding Bishop of the totally declining ECUSA.

Rdr. james
Oly WA

VI,
It is remarkably easy to take yourself out of the comment notifications.  Note the little checked box below the “submit” button, which says “notify me of follow-up comments.”  If you un-check that box when you leave your comment (or set up your account so that is the default) you will not get comments in your email.

Either the guy from North Michigan is totally wrong, or he is the next Presiding Bishop of the totally declining ECUSA.

Or both.

Qualam96,

Mohammed was very much a creature of political expediency. Sure he could be very gracious as long as he needed certain people in order to succeed, as long as he was working to convert people, gaming to win, as long as he thought they might be useful etc.

At the same time, he was telling his Muslims something else entirely. For just one example among a multitude, on his death bed, Mohammed ordered the cleansing of the entire Arabian penninsula of everyone but Muslims and banned non-Muslims from Mecca and Medina. It was he himself that did this and many other intolerant things.

Can Christians worship in Mecca? Can we worship in the Hagia Sophia*? Tell me how many interfaith services have been held in mosques? How many Christians have been allowed to pray in the name of the Trinity or in the name of Jesus as the Son of God in one? Or are they always held either on neutral ground or in a church or synagogue? Or would it be intolerable for Muslims to allow such contamination of their worship spaces?

It seems that Mohammed clearly made a habit out of being absolutely two-faced throughout his entire career. Muslims following his example do the same whenever they trot out whatever example they happen to need to “prove” the perfect excellence of Mohammed for whatever occasion or whatever audience they are trying to impress.

*The Hagia Sophia was stolen, btw, from Christians by Muslims following Mohammed’s own explicit teachings. He commanded that Muslims should take the central place of worship in every place that they conquered so that people of that place would be properly humiliated and so they would know they had been truly conquered. Of course Muslims will spin this as somehow perfectly merciful and generous of him somehow or another. But if the same was done by anyone else, or even worse, if the same was done to Muslims, the cries of theft and perfidy would be deafening!)

This man obviously does not understand the discipline of the Church, nor does he understand the Doctrine of the Church.  I wonder if he received prior approval from his bishop before he started using one of the translations of Holy Scripture authorized by General Convention.  These are laid out in Title II, canon 2.

Now, on to the point about using the Koran in a Sunday worship service and saying that we should hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches (at least they didn’t say “The Word of the Lord.”) - as if the Holy Spirit is speaking through the Koran.  If this were a specially scheduled “interfaith” service, that would be one thing.  But it was the normal Sunday service.  There is no provision in the Book of Common Prayer nor in the Canons to read anything except Holy Scripture during the normal Sunday liturgy.  It simply doesn’t exist.

Finally,I seriously doubt if Mohey Mowafy holds a license to preach in the diocese. 

This should be sent to any “moderate” bishops who are no CP or Network.  This is beyond the pale.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

[163] Mad Potter,

Am I mistaken, or have you not argued on other threads in the recent past that departing parishes were not entitled to take the parish property, irrespective of whose name was on the title because TEC is a hierarchical denomination with the national offices/General Convention as the highest authority? If my memory is correct, then you have either changed your earlier opinion, or you are contradicting yourself.

In either case, based solely on the Constitution and Canons of The Episcopal Church, you are in error. TEC is most definitely not congregational, nor is the highest authority within TEC the General Convention or the Presiding Bishop. Rather, it is an unambiguously hierarchical church whose highest authority is the diocesan Bishop, and whose national organization, General Convention, is a voluntary association of existing individual dioceses.

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

#8 - be careful not to overstate the difference between the Qur’an and what God has revealed through the New Testament. The Qur’an makes several strong claims about Jesus including his Virgin Birth. (There are some Muslims who do interpret the Qur’an differently. But I think the relevant lines clearly imply if not assert a virgin birth for Jesus.) He is a (although not “the”) Messiah. A prophet. Gave a holy book (the injil). And I am unaware of any references to Jesus the prophet committing sin in the Qur’an.

Do not misunderstand me. This is still woefully short of who Jesus the Son of God truly is. The Qur’an strongly rejects the idea that Jesus was crucified (whether he was “merely” a prophet or not) and this is consistent with what scholar Heikki Paisannen(sp?) calls Muhammad’s theologica gloriae (theology of glory).

I share your and others’ outrage at how this pseudo-bishop chose to use the Qur’an in “Christian” worship. But it is important that we understand how the Qur’an presents Jesus as accurately as possible. Both how it falls short of the truth. As well as the “high” regard for Jesus (‘Isa) it has. Christians can disagree with what other religions claim - but we should not disagree with what they do not claim.

Mad Potter
What do you think of a priest in charge of a congregation using the sacred writings of other religions in the normal worship of the Church or letting a non-Christian preach a sermon?

The problem is that the only discipline in TEC today is power.  The C&C;only mean what the PB or the Diocesan says they mean.  That is the rule of men and women - not of law (or even of Grace).

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

I have participated in a vast number of activities which included interfaith prayer, and a vast number of ecumenical services—as has every other current or former military chaplain.  Invocations and Benedictions at official command activities (retirement ceremonies, changes of command, etc.) are required to be “interfaith”—that is, to offend no one but the atheists.  God is spoken to, but not by name.  That’s because at official command activities, Marines and Sailors (in my case) and soldiers and airmen are ordered to be there—and we can’t order people to be proselytized (that pesky Constitution). So, while we know full well Who we’re talking to, and the Triune God knows full-well who we’re talking to, and probably eveybody else in the room knows, too (it was that shiny gold cross on my lapel). we don’t use the Name of Jesus, but pray (as He did) to “Our Father” or “Almighty God”, and usually end with something like “In His holy Name we pray. Amen”, taking it for granted that Jesus knows His own holy Name.

  At non-mandatory services, as a Navy chaplain I was supposed to lead “General Protestant worship” in the field, or when at a base chapel, “Liturgical Protestant Worship”.  [As a nose-bleed Anglo-Catholic, this came as a bit of a shock—I’d never been a protestant before, and had didn’t know how!]  So, in the field, my version of “General Protestant worship” was Morning Prayer with some of the more Protestant hymns (<u>everyone</u> knows Amazing Grace)... and I used “Morning Prayer as Ante-Communion”, inviting those Christians baptised with water in the Name of the Trinity and who believed in the Real Presence to remain for Communion (I didn’t say ‘Mass’ during field services).  [As a descriptive, when I say “in the field”, with the Marines it meant in the mud or dust of Okinawa, with a pile of MRE crates or the back of a Humvee as my altar.]

My “Liturgical Protestant Worship Service” was BCP, Rite I, fully vested (including a maniple, which bemused the Romans), with multiple acolytes, Sanctus Bells, and incense on high Feasts.  My congregation started with 13 people (I joked that I had one more than Jesus did) and grew in two and a half years to over 60, split between Episcopalians and Lutherans (with a few others who wandered in), and we had multiple baptisms and confirmations. One former Christian Scientist LT Colonel came mostly because he thought some religion would be good for his kids—he is now an orthodox Episcopal priest.

It was, by definition, “Ecumenical”, in that I included the Lutherans as Lay Readers, acolytes, and in the equivalent of Vestry.  It was also ecumenical by definition because that’s how the Navy defined it.  It looked an awful lot like Rite I, Prayer 1, though.  (I thought the Anglican Missal might have pushed the envelope a bit too far..)

It was also “ecumenical” in that, during Lent, I led the adults of my small congregation and those of the much, much larger Roman Catholic congregation in weekly Stations of the Cross, while the Roman Catholic chaplain did the same with the youth and children of both congregations.

“Interfaith” prayers have their place… at places where the hearers (other than God) are forced to be present.  It violates the whole concept of God’s granting us the Free Will to choose Christ or not if we <u>order</u> people to listen to Christian prayers… not to mention offending the very people we wish to attract. 

However, the Holy Eucharist is ot an “interfaith” occasion, and no one was ‘ordered’ to be there.  To include a reading from the Koran in the service is completely inexcusable.  If the good rector wanted to include it in a Christian Ed. setting, perhaps in an adult class on what other religions share and do not share with our own (useful knowledge for anyone hoping to evangelize, obviously), then it might be understandable.  As it was, I would trouble deciding if I was more horrified than saddened, except for the fact that this man is a priest, and may become a bishop, of a Church about which he seems to have very little understanding and not a great deal of interest.  So I gave up on saddened, and had to go with horrified.

GA/FL (146),

I am hoping for a lot in the ACNA. 
‘Like Minded Dioceses’ (not just geographic ones)
‘WO Free Zones’
And Maybe, a ‘real old fashioned Daily Office’.

Cónego (167)
I’ve read down to yours now, and.

I pray God that my middle son (recently promoted to PFC, at 29 Palms) finds a ‘General Protestant’ minister like you.  My boy is only 20 (today being his birth-day), and he is already having to chose this day where, how, and whom he will worship.

You’ll know, perhaps better than I, how to pray for him at this juncture of his life, and I ask that you do so.

Semper fidelis - It ain’t just for Marines!

#164 wrote:
<blockquote>...be careful not to overstate the difference between the Qur’an and what God has revealed through the New Testament. The Qur’an makes several strong claims about Jesus including his Virgin Birth. (...) He is a (although not “the”) Messiah. A prophet. Gave [received and transmitted] a holy book (the injil [i.e., Evangel]). And I am unaware of any references to Jesus the prophet committing sin in the Qur’an.

I share your and others’ outrage at how this pseudo-bishop chose to use the Qur’an in “Christian” worship. But it is important that we understand how the Qur’an presents Jesus as accurately as possible. Both how it falls short of the truth. As well as the “high” regard for Jesus (’Isa) it has. Christians can disagree with what other religions claim - but we should not disagree with what they do not claim. <blockquote>

Thank you for this succinct clarification and warning about setting up straw dogs to better malign those taken as adversaries or enemies.

Some of the comments made so far are filled with misinformation about Islam. Frankly, as a former Anglo-Catholic, I am surprised to hear Anglicans (who are generally well-informed and broadly educated) saying calumnies about Islam that could have come out of the mouths of the most retrograde of the Islamophobes.

By the way, you are incorrect about the use of the title “messiah” in reference to Jesus. The Qur’an does not use the word for any other person, and the Arabic text cannot be read as “a” messiah. It says, “al-messih ‘Isa ibnu Mariamu rasoul Allah” (THE Messiah Jesus Son of Mary, Prophet of God).

When I was an Anglican, I too would have been surprised if my priest had invited a Muslim to speak during Mass and had substituted a reading from the Qur’an for the Epistle. (However I would have known that the substitution of a non-New Testament text for the Epistle is/was authorized for the presentation of examples of righteousess, although limited to certain occasions and limited to the Books of the Aprocrypha and, if I remember correctly, the Old Testament. Those exceptions however are specifically provided for in the lectionary (BCP 1928) and in the case of the Apocrypha also in the 39 Articles.)

Before going too far in my condemnation of the event I hope that I would have correctly informed myself on what the Qur’an says about Jesus and the similitudes between Islamic and Christian moral theology.

Most people know that Islam has collections of sayings (hadiths) that are attributed to the Prophet Muhammad. They often do not know that there are similar mentions in extra-Qur’anic literature of sayings attributed to the Prophet Jesus. One of them (mentioned by Abu Nu’aym and Ibn ‘Abd Rabinni) seems appropriate in the context of this present discussion and the excessive remarks of some of the commentators:

Jesus said to his disciples, “Do not over-burden your preaching by going beyond the calling to mind of God. Otherwise your hearts will become hard. The person whose heart is hard is far from God but does not even know it. Do not look at the sins of others with the eyes of a master but contemplate your own sins with the eyes of a slave. Mankind is divided into two categories: the infirm and the sound. Sympathize with the trials of the infirm and give thanks to God for your soundness.” The infirmity referred to here is spiritual infirmity.

In #163, MP was just being snarky, hoping to use somone’s past words against him.  But everything and anything is justified when it comes to justifying, gratifying and praising sexual urges ... as long as they are not between married straight men and women ... in which case they are irrelevant to the revolutionary mission of TEC.

Q96 - Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the Messiah more than once.  John 4 - 6 in particular.  The canonic Biblical Scriptures proclaim the Gospel, the Good News of Salvation and of Jesus Christ’s Propitiation for our Sins, of His defeat of the power of sin, hell and death, and are the authority for the Church. 

The false claims of other religions about Jesus do not matter or affect the Truth, and do not affect orthodox Christian doctrine one way or another.

Dear #174, as I have said in other contexts about this same would-be bishop, though what you say in saying “The false claims of other religions about Jesus do not matter or affect the Truth, and do not affect orthodox Christian doctrine one way or another.” is true, nonetheless, for purposes of simply being on the planet, as well as for better spreading the Good News, it is important to relate accurately with the teachings of other faiths. Otherwise we create a wealth of problems for ourselves.

I too am amazed that Ann Redding was defrocked…we left spong alone, within the church we made vicky into a bishop, we allow priests and bishops to deny the Virgin birth, the Resurrection, the Trinity..and this guy Forrester; he doesn’t know what he is or wants to teach..and we want to make him a bishop…

and we want to make him a bishop…

No, I don’t think WE want that at all.

May we guard as sacred
The many different paths into you
This is Universalism, not Christianity.
It has no place in a mass.
A Buddhist/Episcopal priest, a reading from the Qur’an.  Just when you can’t think it can get any worse, it does.

Mad Potter,

If you’re looking to identify a contradiction between what we think about Forrester’s changing the liturgy, and what we think about 815 owning everybody’s property, you couldn’t be more wrong.

The prayer book, and the constitution and canons, are things that were approved and acceded to by TEC’s member dioceses. There is no evidence that the Dennis Canon was properly approved, and in any case proposes to violate trust law in the sense that one cannot come along and unilaterally declare that all property owned by party B is henceforth held in trust for party A, without party B’s agreeing to it. I realize that there have been judgements to that effect in some of the lawsuits, but most of us here maintain that the judgements are in error. Personally, I’m betting that somewhere along the line, the reality of the law catches up with TEC and things are going to get very difficult for them indeed.

Forrester+ is being criticized for changing something established by the national church, while most here don’t think that the national church has any authority.

The canon of Scripture was recognized by the second century Church as one of the four crucial factors distinguishing Catholic Christianity from heresy.  (Can you name the other three?).

The use of a biblical lectionary can be traced from the very earliest history of the church, and has roots in Judaism.  Shall we just round it off to 2,000 years?

The Revised Common Lectionary has been recognized and is used by ALL mainline churches in the USA, Canada, and Great Britain.

The Dennis Canon can be traced to a single vote of General Convention in 1979, and is of dubious legality.

There is . . . ABSOLUTELY . . . NO . . . COMPARISON.

Can you name the other three?

The exclusion of clown masses, liturgical dancing, and rainbow vestments?

Actually, I would be interested in learning, and in knowing which specicial councils and canons you have in mind.

The other three were the Rule of Faith (Creeds), Historical Succession from the Apostles (Episcopacy), Worship in Word and Sacraments.

All of these, either together or individually, would be radically incompatible with using readings from non-Christian religions in Christian worship.  A church that either does not understand this or allows it is no longer a Christian church in any meaningful sense of the word.

Here’s a video of a 17 year old Muslim girl, being beaten, caution to younger readers and those of a sensitive nature:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6022878.ece

It’s not the worst example of Muslim violence against women and others. In 2004, I visited a site of a Muslim women’s organization that was working to expose the violence against women in Afghanistan, and it included videoclips of the horrible abuses under the Taliban. The site has been removed from the web since that time. If one would like to learn more, I’d recomend this very comprehensive website: http://www.wluml.org/english/index.shtml

It’s the truth about the so called “religion of peace” that TEC leadership wants to sugar coat and play “interfaith” toesies with.

Here’s a link to an article that quotes from a conversation with reporter, and a Muslim business man who lives in the US regarding his views on the ritual abuse of women in his religion:

Reporting The Muslim Brotherhood http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/research/detail/reporting-the-muslim-brotherhood

Two years ago, the editor-in-chief of my newspaper, a very fair-minded man, put together a working lunch in which Mohamed Elmougy, for years the leader of CAIR in Dallas, and I could meet to discuss our differences. Mr. Elmougy, who is no longer with CAIR but who had been for some time the leading public voice of Dallas-area Muslims, brought with him two associates. The editor-in-chief and the editorial page editor of the News accompanied me. Mr. Elmougy and I did most of the talking. It wasa long meeting, but a cordial one. As we waited for the check, Mr. Elmougy said he didn’t understand why I considered Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the popular satellite TV evangelist and spiritual advisor of the Muslim Brotherhood, to be violent. I responded by pointing out that Qaradawi has advocated executing homosexuals, and that he gave advice on his website about how a Muslim man can beat his wife in an Islamically correct way.

“That’s violent,”I told Mr. Elmougy. He slammed his hand on the table and said he agreed with the Shaykh, and that he wouldn’t apologize for it. He went on to tell a story about an adulteress who came to the Prophet asking for release from her sins. The Prophet ordered her stoned to death, said Mr. Elmougy, and declared that he could see her rejoicing in paradise. Mr. Elmougy finished his account by saying that things we Westerners consider to be unacceptable violence are considered by Muslims like him to be pro-family “deterrence.”

Mr. Elmougy is an example of someone who presents the appearance of a westernized Muslim, but he fully supports murder and violence. He lives in the US, and is presented as a civilized businessman. Here’s an article about him as the owner/developer of a hotel chain for business and corporate interests: http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2008/01/14/smallb4.html

I am confused about all of these issues with Rev Thew Forrester.  How can TEC allow him to even be a priest, and I can’t imagine a Bishop?!  I grew up in Marquette and attended St Paul’s as a child (before moving out of state.)  The church is beautiful and had a feeling of holiness and sacredness, calm, yet inviting.  I am sure that he is a “nice guy”.  But TEC needs more than “nice guys” in the ranks of priests and bishops.  I go to Upper Michigan each summer and will make it a point to stop by and see how this beautiful church is handling this.  It is very sad to think of the members of the congregation who just want to worship and pray in the traditional manner.  Would it not be possible for them to have separate services each week?  Perhaps a traditional one plus the new age one that Thew Forrester prefers.  It is sad to think of how many parishoners have just moved on to other churches rather than put up with this sort of thing.

Qalam96, while obviously we disagree on some very important things, I appreciate you having the clarity of mind and honesty to acknowledge the disagreements and the fact that Islam and Christianity make conflicting claims about the exact nature and purpose of Jesus.  Would that so many of those that claim to be Christian ministers have the same clarity.

Lilfairie, I’d suggestcontact with the Vestry and pose the question to them. After all, they’re the ones who hired him.

185 and 187-
This diocese has, for decades, been under the oversight of some of TEC’s most liberal bishops.  Personally, I think that +Jim Kelsey, if he were still with us, would have reined in some of Rev. Forrester’s wilder liturgical tendencies, especially if a number of parishioners were complaining.  But +Kelsey did, after all, commend Forrester for his following Buddhism and Christianity simultaneously.
  The vestry has been credited with getting Forrester to reinstate use of the Creed (although, from what I have seen printed of his liturgies, in a form that has some modifications from the Rite II BCP version).  However, one of the problems up here is getting a priest at all.  By hiring Forrester, with part of his salary coming from the diocese (as a “ministry developer”) it allowed them to get one partially subsidized. 
  However, all the paid clergy up here subscribe to his theology- all are signatories to the Dar “affirmations” and other statements.  And I think it safe to say that the diocesan standing committee (also all signatories) would never license an orthodox priest if the parish could afford to bring someone in from the outside.

MP,

You’re equating Forrester’s freedom to do what he wants to the liturgy, with +Duncan, +Iker, and +Schofield removing their dioceses from a heretical and canonically belligerent TEC, and that’s not going to wash. The latter is an attempt to *restore* order; the former is an attempt to *rend* it. And remember that Forrester isn’t a bishop yet.

Greg, Mad Potter, were the Diocese of Northern Michigan to change its constitution and canons in order to leave TEC, and then decided that they wanted to set up the Universal Congregation of the Spirit or whatever, I would fully support their right to do so, and to keep all their property.

189

Come to think of it just how many paid clergy are there in the Diocese? Many times there is reference to four paid clergy at the Diocesean level. I do recall the names of Thew-Forrester, Manual Padilla and Rayford Ray as being there. Charley Piper has been at Holy Trinity in Iron Mountain for many years and is very active in the curent scheme of things there but I don’t think he would be included as part of the Diocesean count. Just who is the fourth one? Rise Thew-Forrester is seminary trained, would she be counted as the fourth?

One REALLY BIG problem with this whole thing is a laity so either uneducated or ignorant that they would tolerate the Koran being read IN THE WORSHIP SERVICE in place of the Bible and not flattening the person who tried it!!!!!!!!  That’s what “tolerance” created!

The Presiding Bishop, who is visiting in my town today, wouldn’t seen anything wrong with a little Koran in the Mass. A fresh quote from “Episcopal Life Online” on the bat-winged fly-in to Western Illinois to start a rump diocese to supplant Quincy (in the hope of laying claim to bank accounts and real estate):

” In response to a question, Jefferts Schori said that to insist Jesus is the only way to God is to “limit God.” She said that God is certainly at work in the lives of people in Jewish and Muslim communities. “God is, at the very least, a mystery,” Jefferts Schori said. “God’s intention is for a restored relationship with all humanity. My job is to proclaim the good news of Jesus, but I cannot deny God is not at work in other ways.” ”

She’s not a Christian. That quote is straight from her mouth as reported by her PR agency. CASE CLOSED! TEC is dissolved. We may all now reconvene in the Southern Cone. I’d like to see Cannon Larson and his ilk explain that one.

you can’t keep the keys to the church you just left.

Ain’t nobody left it.

If I had a say in our diocese PR, Greg, we’d put out a press release tomorrow that under the headline “Presiding Bishop Denies Christ on Palm Sunday Visit to Western Illinois.” I’m not sure if that remark was Saturday in Peoria or Sunday in Moline, but same difference. And you’re right. I don’t get to decide who is a Christian. But Jesus is pretty emphatic in the Bible saying that He is the way. If people are going to deny that is the case, it seems to me they ought to think of a new term to define themselves.

Or Mad Potter. Apologies to Greg. (g)

MP,
Your PB is, if not a theif herself, one who supports them.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with Jesus the Christ, I quote Him on the matter:

John 10

1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is (A)a thief and a robber.

2"But he who enters by the door is (B)a shepherd of the sheep.

3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear (C)his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and (D)leads them out.

4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know (E)his voice.

5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know (F)the voice of strangers.”

6This (G)figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am (H)the door of the sheep.

8"All who came before Me are (I)thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

9”(J)I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they (K)may have life, and have it abundantly.

What KTF has done, isn’t just a violation of the rules of that part of the Church known as ‘Anglican’ or ‘Episcopal’.  He has joined in with the thieves and murders.  He has denied Christ’s divinity, the virgin birth, and atoning death. 

To me the arguments against him aren’t ‘He is not Episcopal (for that he apparently remains), but that he is not even a confessing Christian.

ruauper (191)-
Charlie Piper is the 4th Ministry Developer, according to the Hiawathaland newsletter.  I probably have used the number 4 myself for both paid clergy and seminary trained clergy.  I’ll take your word for it that Rise Forrester also went to seminary.  None of the financial stuff I’ve seen shows her drawing a salary as a curate, but maybe the parish figures they are paying a team.  It may be that he gets the credit and she does the work.  I would also guess that sprinkled among the dozens of volunteer clergy, there may be one or two retired priests with seminary backgrounds also.
PS- can I assume that r-u-a-uper is indeed a Yooper?  Or maybe former Yooper?  That would make 4 or 5 of us on SF- or about 1% of the ASA of the diocese.  Bring 3 or 4 friends each and we would have a thriving congregation by local standards.

I’ve always been of the opinion that the churches are the property of Jesus Christ.  If you no longer worship Him, you do not get to keep the keys.

KGTF lost me the day he authored that abominable (in the OT meaning, not as in snowman) ‘Dar statement” with its “affirmations”.  Until such time as he and his fellow travelers recant of that statement, they should not be receiving Communion, much less be priests.

I don’t think I’d be going out on a limb to think that someone who says “I believe in “a” lord, Jesus Christ, who is an only begotten son of God “just like me….” in place of the appropriate words of the Creed would have to spend some time in a confessional (where penance might include a public recantation) before approaching the communion rail of any Anglo Catholic parish.

ruauper-
Come to think of it, I’m guessing that Dr. Virginia ??? (sorry, forget her last name- late and mind more of a sieve than a steel trap) probably also has a paid position- that is just about the only parish in the diocese that does not list an army of volunteer priests and deacons.

oops, like I said, a sieve- that would be in Houghton.

He’d need to make a public confession before getting the Lord’s Supper at the Baptist Church I attend.

I’m not sure they’d let him, even after confession in the Anglican one.

He is a priest in TEC, and the Bishop over us is, I think among those either ‘not in communion, or in impared communion’ with TEC.

Keep in mind that some all this goes on in Roman Catholic and Episcopal retreat centers as well as Reiki, Labyrinths, etc. are all seeking after gnosis, secret methods, power, knowledge, control.

Yes, Floridian, I’m sure it does.  Where, however, are those seekers put forward to sit in an Apostle’s seat?

An old English proverb comes to mind: “He that pisseth into the wind wetteth his shirt”  [!!!]

[209] Neill,

I think most of us here prefer a slightly more delicate version of the first part of your comment, namely “voideth his bladder to windward….” {winkie}

Blessings and regards,
Keith Toepfer

tjmcmahon
That would be Virginia Peacock. I hear she tangled with the Senior Warden and probably vestry members also. At any rate she left Houghton last fall. No one will talk about it but apparently she also tangled with KTF and took it all the way to 815. What it was about I do not know as no one wants to discuss it.

Yep, I’m a Yooper, tried and true. After shoveling snow for 60 years I finally realized the white stuff just came coming back year after year so I decided to flee and be a sno bird.
The Diocese has a message board called UPCHAT that I was able to finally able to gain access to where I challanged the method used to elect KTW. Tom Lippert went after me on the message board as you’ll see below. At any rate I suspect I am no longer welcome anywhere in the Diocese so my attendance is, of necessity, based here in Tucson.
===================================

RE: the election of a bishop:
I am surprised that you have so much to say about the up coming election. I mean, according to people I know in Houghton, you don’t attend Trinity Church much a few times a year - some years ... you don’t have a financial stake in the church - don’t maintain a pledge ... and Trinity is one of the churches in the UP that has never developed a mutual ministry team - always has had a full time seminary trained priest.  It seems like the kind of a church that would suit you just fine. I served as a priest at Trinity Church, Houghton after I retired and you probably never knew it.  I never saw you at Trinity.  I don’t remember you participating in the diocese since you left St. James in the Soo in 1990.  Are you an Episcopalian that goes to church in Arizona?
Tom

Tom, let’s get some facts straight. I am a member of the Episcopal Church. As fate would have it I was not entered onto Trinity roles as an official “member” way back when. Not an uncommon error then or now. I attend services at Trinity when in the area far more often than your claims infer. Nothing you claim to be my multitude of sins and shortcomings has prevented that attendance and while I do not consider church services a social event I have always felt welcome at Trinity by the few people I have had limited contact with. None of those people have ever expressed animosity towards me for the sins and shortcomings you so passionately believe I possess. Additionally you seem to believe my opposition to Mutual Ministry should be reason enough to bar me from the Episcopal Church. Just because you don’t like the message don’t feel you have license to kill the messenger.
I am a communicant of the Episcopal Church. I am not a communicant in good standing because I choose not to pledge. By not pledging I forego my right to vote, but I don’t see that as a great negative considering the current state of affairs in this Diocese. Oh yes, while I may not be able to vote nothing in the Canons strips me of the right to voice my opinions.
You say you never saw me around Trinity, just when was that? I don’t remember seeing you in the 18 years I’ve attended there either so maybe your visits were during that part of the year I wasn’t in the area. I surely don’t remember seeing you during the months I was in the area but then we’re both getting older and memories do fade with time.

Apparently you must believe documentation that verifies my “sporadic” attendance exists. Unfortunately, you neglect to mention just who was keeping tally on me. If there are such records there would be at least 936 entries documenting my attendance and the amount and form of plate offering I made. I think that would make for interesting reading if it really does exist which I doubt. However, if it does exist please see to it that it gets published here for all, including me, to see.
You infer that my attendance and contribution level at Trinity, probably garnered from a single source there, should be sufficient reason to deny me the right to voice my opinions. I don’t know who the Trinity person was assigned to keep tabs on me and tally my attendance and/or visually identify and tally my plate offerings over the 18 years of summer visits I’ve made to Trinity. What justified such long term surveillance is something I find most mystifying. Possibly you or your Trinity source will be able to explain why it was done should someone ask you about it. Then again we may be dealing with someone’s generalized, off the cuff estimates of what he or she thought was the case.
As a side note here, one of the current missioners in the Diocese was frustrated by the fact that he was unable to glean anything about me from church records in the western part of the Diocese.  His frustrations led him to ask me to provide him some background so he could “engage” me. I provided the background he requested, he’s failed to follow up on the “engage” part.

Another issue you mention is that of my support of seminary trained priests. Your right, I do, I think Mutual Ministry is a disaster, something that cheapens the priesthood of which you have been a part. Up until a few months ago Trinity did have a seminary trained priest. Apparently it was thought by some she was not a good “fit”, others indicate there was a clash between her and a Vestry member. Stories persist to this day about differences going all the way to 815 in NYC.  I will venture to opine that such matters hastened her departure and impact current operations there.
Recently I told you that I considered the claims and accusations made about and against me as nothing more than a form of blackmailing me into silence. Such tactics won’t work and anyone who thinks their feeble attempts at embarrassing me will bring about my silence best keep in mind I don’t cave.
====================================

I believe that Rise Thew Forrester is now the interim priest at St Paul’s.  From what I understand SHE would be an ideal candidate for the Bishop position!  I have checked the local tv station in Marquette http://www.wluctv6.com but find no reference to any of this.  I wrote a comment on their news referal area but I got back a generic statement basically saying that this is “old news”  Maybe others would care to send their input.  I think the story needs to be heard and perhaps this will wake up some of the parishioners to know that they do have support out here.  They must feel very alone right now and have no one to help them out.

LilFairie

i did post a letter for the ‘Letters to the Editor” page of the Mining Journal some six weeks ago after Charley Piper wrote a glowing report of what happened at the meeting of Feb. 21st. As far as I know no one replied to it. You might want to to do a search of the Minjng Journal’s archives, try piper or covell for starters.

Let’s not forget the suffering extends far beyond the people of St. Paul’s, the pain is evident from DeTour to Ironwood and present in every congregation. Remember that since Bishop Ray arrived back in the 80’s, , followed by Bishop Kelsey church membership has dropped fifty per cent. A more traditional approach to worship and respect for those who disagreed and were driven from the church would be a big step in the healing sorely needed thoughout the Diocese.

I do not agree tha Rise Forrester would be a good candidate. She has always been a part of the Mutual Ministry clique and there is no reason to believe she would ever choose a differing path to that end. The cabal currently calling the shots would probably be more than happy to substitute her for KTF should that be necessary. Placing her name in nomination would only drive congregations and members further apart. Until there is a general house cleaning at Diocesean level will common sense and fairness ever have a chance of saving the Diocese from utter ruin.

Re: “ferretting out the nonbelievers.”

No ferrets required.
KTF & Co, self-identify.

Until there is a general house cleaning at Diocesean level will common sense and fairness ever have a chance of saving the Diocese from utter ruin.

Amen to that, Ruauper.

I wonder what the % decline in membership is in other dioceses (is that a word???) during the same time.  I live in Colorado now, and the church I attend has also seen a decline in membership.  I believe the reverend Greer was at St Paul’s when I went there, and that was a long time ago, but even he was controversial from what I remember.  I pray for peace in the world, and especially within our own church body!

LilFairie

Bill Greer and Carlson Gerdau of Houghton were close. I remember an election that took place in Escanaba when Carlson saw to it Bill’s name was placed in nomination for Bishop. Carlson had built majority backing for Bill’s election among the clergy but he forgot or ignored the fact the laity had a vote also. We voted on Bill 4 or 5 times with the vote never changing: clergy for election, laity against. The Chair finally adjourned the meeting and Bill’s name never come up for Bishop again.

Bill left St. Paul’s and moved to NY and later died there. Carlson became an assistant to the Bishop of Chicago who later became PB. I think he retired when the current PB came on board. Currently he serves on the Church Pension Fund Comm.

I can’t speak in specific terms about membership decline by Diocese but am pretty certain that if you check those where Mutual Ministry has taken hold you’ll find a downward trend is clear. I also know the National CHurch has experienced a net decline but that’s probably being celebrated as some form of reorganization and consolidation.

Reply to post 170.

The Koran denies that God has a Son - therefore it not only denies Christ’s divinity, it also denies the claims He makes for Himself. As Christ’s claims are ‘absolute’ (either you believe them all or you believe none, you can’t take part of them) the Koran makes Christ to be a liar, it makes the Bible a lie, and it makes all who follow Him to be fools for following a liar.

There is, and can be, no possible genuine faith link between Islam and Christianity - they are diametrically opposed.

I think the issue here is not so much “mutual ministry” per se, but the way it has been applied here, which is not really mutual ministry at all.  What mutual ministry intends, from what I understand, is to provide assistance from the laity to missionary priests.  Appointing, for example, a lay reader in every congregation, who is licensed to lead Morning or Evening Prayer on a Sunday when the missionary priest cannot be there.  Occasionally ordaining someone in a case where a congregation is particularly remote, or where one priest cannot handle the load of several parishes.
  Here, they have ordained 20% of the congregation (based on ASA- 7 or 8% based on total membership).  Does a congregation of 35 need 4 priests and 3 deacons?  By normal mutual ministry standards, at best you would expect 1 priest, 1 deacon, perhaps a lay reader, a couple Eucharistic visitors (to take Communion to hospitals, etc.), and a lay Eucharistic minister to assist at Mass as chalice bearer (not to be confused with lay presidency). 
  Personally, I think the whole point of this in the long run is to have a bishop with no seminary trained clergy whatsoever.  As people retire, they will be replaced by “mutual ministers” trained by KGTF himself to be the new “ministry developers”.  That way, the whole diocese will become an extension of the ego that so strongly presents itself in his statements and sermons.  It would never occur to most of us that when our own “soul-work” completely contradicted 2000 years of scholarship and tradition, that said “soul work” work would be correct, and that theologians from St. Paul to Augustine to Aquinas to Martin Luther to Pope Benedict must therefore be in error.

tjmcmahon

It seems to be difficult to really pin down just what Mutual Ministry is or is not. I’ve always been of the opinion that its to be used within a congregation’s vestry as a tool for self-evaluation. It’s also necessary that someone trained and skilled in such be a part of the process. It’s an internal process, not one introduced and managed from the outside as KTF does. I may be wrong but current adherents of MM probably wouldn’t tolerate a licensed lay reader in their midst.

The 2008 Annual report for St.Paul’s is on-line and makes for interesting reading. It took place Jan. 27th of this year and sheds additional light on the fact KTF already knew he had the election sewed up. I was intrigued by his hyping Enneagrams that he claims he’s been an advocate of for ten years. More on that later.

Here’s a link to the report: http://www.stpmqt.org/AnnualReports/2008/2008AR.pdf

To this old social worker Enneagrams are nothing more than one of many, many personality tests being marketed today. I did a Google search and found pages and pages of material on it. A couple of remarks from people exposed to it are as follows:

“It doesn’t seem too far removed from fortune telling and astrology” and “As for Enneagram Theory, I think it originates from pure psychology. Some people are twisting personality theories and turning them into religious philosophy, just like L Ron Hubbard stole ideas from psychoanalysis and used them to create Scientology”.

I am not familiar enough with enneagrams to testify as to their validity or reliability. However to apply its singular results as the basis of a healing process as KTF claims to do is a bit of a stretch.

tjm, at last we find a difference of opinion between us.
I would posit that the problem at St. Paul’s is the opposite.  My understanding is that Mutual Ministry is about creating a lay team of individuals to fully serve the liturgical and pastoral needs of the congregation with a missioner who has a very tangential role - namely to serve a diocesan administrative function for the churches under her/his jurisdiction as well as an educated review of what is occurring in the congregations to (ironically in this case) ensure they are respecting the rubrics and canons.  As these people may still be employed outside of the church, it was felt that a greater number of presbyters, deacons and preachers could share the “burden.”  They would meet as a team and make decisions as a team and the missioner would be a bit removed and let the MST take care of themselves.

What has happened at St. Paul’s is that the MST was created and KTF’s 3/4 time position never went away so he essentially runs the show.  This has allowed for the unusual liturgical material to be used - had KTF been functioning in a true missioner role, the MST would have actually kept the liturgy essentially intact.  In fact, the congregation that KTF also serves as missioner for the other 1/4 time told him that “no, they would not be using his liturgy booklets, thank you very much, and requested him leave them to continue to use the BCP.”  As his level of participation at this other church more closely resembled the more limited and tangential role of missioner as intended - the church tradition is actually respected and maintained.  Ironic, isn’t it?  The man who is pushing himself as a leader in Mutual Ministry (and Enneagram by the way - he’s certified you know)doesn’t allow it to function in practice.  He will, of course, try to get you to believe that all these changes are the will of the Ministry Support Team (pay no attention to the man behind the screen).

Some folks (Bishop Marshall most recently) keep saying what a fine priest and pastor KGTF is, although they can’t endorse him for Bishop.

But I have to wonder what kind of person makes the moves that KGTF has made in a diocese that is widely described as “traumatized” and “in grief” over the untimely death of the last bishop.

And I have to wonder about the - what’s the new term? - “reflectors” like Bp. Caldwell of WY who’ve fronted for this farce.

The manipulation, exploitation and radical expendability of God’s people under current TEC leadership just boggles the mind.

My understanding is that Mutual Ministry is about creating a lay team of individuals…

But that was exactly my point.  We do not have that in this diocese.  What we have is an ORDAINED team in every parish.  One priest or deacon for every 2 families of 4.  There are as many priests in this diocese as most that have twice the number of parishes and 5 times the ASA.
  The other thing that I don’t get is how and why all the auxiliary clergy are scared of KGTF and the other missioners.  Do they not have the same rights as any other priest?  People act like KGTF can fire them at will.  He holds no power of deposition.  The diocese would have to go through an ecclesiastic trial, would they not, regardless of whether the priest is on the payroll?

To All My Fellow Yoopers

KTF and his crew have distorted MM into a self-serving tool that promotes their myoptic view of how the Diocese of Northern Michigan should be shaped. To quote from KTF’s remarks in the 2008 Annual Report of St. Paul’s held Jan. 27, 2009 “The The National Episcopal Church is observing our process, with a view perhaps changing the typical bishop election process.” Whew! That ought to scare anyone given the fact the PB was his classmate in seminary.

KTF makes much of his ten year involvement with and certification as teacher of the Enneagram approach. Be aware Enneagram certification requires attendance at two six day training sessions, hardly enough to claim an intergration of psychological life and spirituality. For furtherexplanation of this hazy approach to mental health I refer you to his remarks about the matter in the 2008 report or you could google the word Enneagram.

Oops, I forgot to mention that there was a MM priest tried and defrocked in the Diocese a few years ago.

“Nirvana,n. In the Buddhist religion, a state of pleasurable annihilation awarded to the wise, particularly to those wise enough to understand it.

Bierce’s Devil’s Dictionary

I was just checking back to see if there is any more info regarding the voting on Rev Thew Forrester’s election.  When will the decision be made?  Thanks.  Lillie

Bishop Mathes of San Diego votes no.

martin5,

Do you have a link?

Try pasting a tinyurl, or sending it to me in a PM. I’m trying to find some time this weekend to fix the linking problem in the comment threads.

Here’s what they are saying about him in the local news (credited to AP).  I understand the TV station ran it on the news, but can’t find a link to the video.
http://www.9and10news.com/category/story/?id=152882#Responses

Greg,
I am rather challenged on the computer. It was sent to me via e-mail. I forwarded it Standfirm from your e-mail but if there is another way, please send me an e-mail to forward it to.

#230 TJM, it might be another good opportunity to highlight the extensive U.P. geography.  First of all, this would be local news in the far Eastern portion of the diocese only.  You must understand that “Northern MI” actually refers to the upper portion of the LOWER peninsula, not to be confused with “Upper MI” which is how the U.P. is actually referred to in reports etc.  Got it?

So this is not the local news 3 hours to the west in Marquette where KGTF is the Missioner/Ministry Developer.

It seems to be picking up the Arkansas story of the newswire.

Renz (232)-
I am indeed aware of the geography, and that “local TV” can be anything from Traverse City to Minneapolis depending on where you reside.  I was using “local” in the sense of “the area close to me.”  The real local station here is CBC (Canadian Broadcasting) but I am not aware of them having commented to date.
Do recall that KGTF is also the ministry developer HERE in the Eastern Region (that would be deanery, more or less, for those with a more conventional ecclesiology than we have here).  In any case, the CBS affiliate for the part of the diocese I reside in aired a story, and the station has the linked AP article on their website, which is hardly complimentary to the bishop-elect, but accurate.

My apologies, TJM, I knew that you knew the geography and terms, but was clarifying for the benefit of other folks - reminding them that it takes 6-7 hours to drive across this diocese from East to West.

The loan suppose to be essential for people, which would like to organize their business. In fact, it is very easy to get a short term loan.

Hacker alert for Greg!

The LORD is risen!

Greg, you’ve been hacked on this thread. Needs attention. Thanks.
Alleluia.

Beeson Divinity School’s Dean, Timothy George, has a great teaching series “Is the Father of Jesus the God of Muhammad?”. You can order it online. The DVD uses interviews with both Christian and Islamic theologians to articulate the differences in an honest and respectful manner. Every faithful church should sponsor education in this area for youth and adults.