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Giles Fraser: Thank you Lord I am not like those other bloggers….

Friday, May 1, 2009 • 5:44 pm


And he’s at it again…

In her excellent blog for The Times, Ruth Gledhill raises the question of why religious people are so nasty to each other on the internet. She writes of a “blog eat blog world”, where “authors and commenters sip vim-and-vitriol under the cover of Christian sanctimony.”

But luckily we have Fraser who will show us how to be fair and generous to others…

Ms Gledhill points the finger at conservative blogs such as Stand Firm, after having been referred to as “an instrument of evil and cultural sickness” by one contributor on that site. I went to have a look at it, and picked on a thread at random. The first comment said that the Archbishop of Canterbury “has been continually and intentionally doing, writing, saying and teaching evil. He should be dethroned.”

Fraser is a hoot. When he writes “by one contributor on that site” what do you understand? Of course, you understand it to be one of the bloggers. That’s the implication.

When one follows the link it becomes obvious that these are the words of one of our many many commenters at Stand Firm. They “contribute” in the same way that people who call up radio talk-shows contribute to what the guests on the show are saying. In other words, they are individuals in their own right.

But surely this was just some sort of simple mistake on Fraser’s part? Sadly no. When Ruth made the original statement on her widely-read and informative blog she put it this way:

And only today, I find myself denounced over at StandFirm as ‘an instrument of evil and cultural sickness.’

Which, again, makes it look as though we, the authors of this blog, made the accusation. This needed clarifying so Greg left a comment:

Just for the sake of accuracy, Ruth, you were not denounced as an instrument of evil BY STAND FIRM, but BY A COMMENTER at Stand Firm, of whom there are many. wink

Which you would have thought clarified the issue and warranted a little care of language by those picking up on this issue later on.

But not Fraser. Again, I’m going to assume that Fraser is an intelligent man. I’m going to assume he knows how blogs work, else why write about them. And I’m going to assume that he does his homework since he singled out our blog for special attention - it is the only one he mentions by name.

So you would assume that he checked up on this issue rather than just winging off a few words. Fraser is not stupid, he taught at Oxford for goodness sake, so why describe the comment as though it came from the authors of the blog themselves? Not, surely, because he is himself prone to a little vim-and-vitriol under the cover of Christian sanctimony? It couldn’t possibly be.

And why pick out “conservative” blogs for special mention? My experience of the blogosphere is that the consistently petty-minded and downright spiteful stuff is all being written by theological liberals. We get called the most appalling things on a regular basis. I, for instance, have my own personal cyber-stalker. A parish priest from Durham Diocese in England who has nothing better to do than trawl through my latest postings in order to pour scorn upon them. Not interact in a meaningful way, of course - just mock and deride.

[Warning, the links in this para. are not pleasant] Matt and Anne Kennedy have had some pretty horrible things written about them. So, for example, popular liberal blogger Clumber started up a quite nasty website aimed directly at them and let’s not remind ourselves of the stuff that Kaeton wrote about Anne Kennedy. Who remembers Jake? Who dares even read Mad Priest’s stuff? I think I’ve made my point.

Despite all this Fraser still points the finger at us “conservatives” as though we’re the problem. That’s not to say that there’s simply no such behaviour on this side of the fence. Far from it. But if he’s looking for a consistent pattern of, well, abusive writing then he’s looking in the wrong place. There is a whole world of liberal Anglican blogs that excel in this stuff, and encourage one another in it. I am, frankly, astounded at some of the things I read there. I met up with a guy that moves in those circles and he had no explanation for it. Very nice guy, but could only affirm for me the “loving community”. Last time I checked love didn’t go out of its way to mock and deride others. So, frankly, it’s no good holding up this community as “loving” if they are also sources of sustained and deliberately insulting mockery. At least not if there’s any claim to be Christian. That ordained clergymen are part of the whole thing is, frankly, beyond me.

I wonder that Fraser isn’t aware of all this. I’m quite sure that he is. It doesn’t take long in the Anglican blogosphere before you become aware of these people. And yet he still singles out Stand Firm with no parallel example on the other side. Very telling. Here’s how he finishes up:

The quick-fire argument on the internet has cut itself adrift from this sensitivity, and has become cruel. This is why too much time going through blogs and comments can be bad for your spiritual health.

Well then, Fraser, you should write and email to all your friends on your side of the table. And, quite honestly, you should do it not only for your sake but for theirs. That much bitterness and hatred cannot be good for a person, no matter what the initial cause of it was. Your criticism will find a far more necessary target far closer to home.


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Comments:

Vaunting pride and inaccuracy, too.  He has the whole package.  A little jaunt on the Integrity blog sites will certainly clear the air for him.  And a nice slice of the HOBD listserve.  Someone send him the info on how to observe whilst not commenting….

[1] Posted by dwstroudmd+ on 05-01-2009 at 05:54 PM • top

The elitists of the Anglican world continue to portray all lesser beings as repressed, hateful, insensitive… while themselves posting an encyclopedia of repressed rage, hate and lack of anything resembling empathy.

Does that sound sick?  It is, by every definition.  Morally and spiritually, it is hypocrisy.  Mentally, it is projection or worse.

[2] Posted by Timothy Fountain on 05-01-2009 at 06:03 PM • top

David:

And are you surprised?  In a world where ‘evil is called good and good evil’?  It does not matter the twisted evil things that liberals say (and you are absolutely correct - some of them, like the stuff said about Anne Kennedy by E. Keaton - whoever has that Umbridge Pink Website - like the Fr. Jake blog was so heinous, abusive and not even qualified to be civil let alone Christian (language in particular was disgusting) because - gosh - one commenter said one stray thing on this site… and that’s all that matters.

It is classic liberalism - point your fingers at the one fleck on the wall at your opponent in hopes that no one will not see the obscene graffiti scribbled so massively, so layered all over your own.

Giles you are a sad sad man so locked in your own blindness - what could you possibly see with any type of objectivity?  What you wrote is just an object of pity to any intelligent mind.  Makes me feel sorry for you.

  Ruth, why not do something REALLY newsworthy and actually look at some of these liberal “”“”“Anglican”“”” sites instead??? That would be actually something different… of course, going against the wishes of the liberal media is never a good idea… takes come courage and a willingness to be trashed by them next.  Oh, and just a hint - the liberals would probably use a little worse words than ‘evil’.

[3] Posted by Eclipse on 05-01-2009 at 06:13 PM • top

My apologies to Greg, Matt+, Sarah, Jackie, David, the wonderful bloggers at SFIF.  If I caused you any embarrassment, I am sorry.

I cannot retract my statement that I still believe Ms. Gledhill is misusing her journalistic privilege by consistently siding with and repeating the ‘gay’ activist agenda talking points and consistently uses inflamatory and uncomplimentary descriptors when she writes about the orthodox

By doing so, she is standing against the side of the whole counsel of Scripture, 2000 years of Tradition and theology, against actual evidence in science, psychology, medicine and statistics.  Instead, she is cooperating with the most cruel deception that has ever insinuated itself into the Church of Jesus Christ, one that leaves people in a state of woundedness, darkness and captivity to sin. 

A church that is so blind and unbelieving, that compromises with an unscriptural agenda, is not not acting as the church, with the very real power, truth, love and life in the Holy Spirit, that redeems us and sets us free from the power of sin - it is just a quaint historical play or a lovely club that provides nice ceremonies to mark life’s milestones. 

It would have been fair-minded and enlightening for Ms. Gledhill to attend and report on the recent Sex and the City conference where the evidence for the truth and power of God were presented. 

Here are some links (in case someone can forward them to her):
Dr Nicolosi at London conference:
http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/?p=9856

Psychologist, Joseph Nicolosi; psychiatrist, Jeffrey Satinover, M.D.;  and
JONAH President Arthur Goldberg - Gays can Change -
http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/?p=9860
http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/?p=9891
http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/?p=9901
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10318
http://www.ccfon.org/mediacentre.php?avid=197&avap=1

Here are some testimonies of men and women who have changed:
http://www.vimeo.com/2369922
http://vimeo.com/2530780
http://vimeo.com/2591054
http://vimeo.com/2343239
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10082

A researcher changed his position and now says it is possible to change:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/april/20.94.html

[4] Posted by Theodora on 05-01-2009 at 06:43 PM • top

Floridan:

Seems to me that Fraser and Ms Gedhill need to get a reality check on what constitutes poor comments.

[5] Posted by Eclipse on 05-01-2009 at 06:50 PM • top

Ruth’s participation in the so-called outing of the Communion Partners “conspiracy” and her use of replacement of wholesale quoting from Susan Russell rather than any semblance of investigative journalism, editorial balance, or independent analysis with has made it very clear where her heart lies.

[6] Posted by AndrewA on 05-01-2009 at 06:51 PM • top

That should be “her use of wholesale quoting…”

[7] Posted by AndrewA on 05-01-2009 at 06:57 PM • top

Actually, such a church is worse - more like Nero, indifferent, fiddling while Rome burns or Lady McBeth washing and washing, unable to remove the blood of human souls she left in the torment of evil.

[8] Posted by Theodora on 05-01-2009 at 06:59 PM • top

Ruth’s participation in the so-called outing of the Communion Partners “conspiracy” and her use of replacement of wholesale quoting from Susan Russell rather than any semblance of investigative journalism, editorial balance, or independent analysis with has made it very clear where her heart lies.

To be fair, she’s a journalist and she used a press release sent to her. We do the same thing. Our local paper here in Sydney used a press release our church issued last week. They quoted verbatim. Ruth shouldn’t be blamed for quoting Russell.

[9] Posted by David Ould on 05-01-2009 at 07:24 PM • top

Floridian,
if you wish Ruth Gledhill to report evangelical groups like Anglican Mainstream, you might like to consider whether your comments in an earlier thread would help or hinder that. You have restated your difficulties with Ruth in more dignified and restrained language on this thread. Why could you not have used this sort of language the first time around?
I take the point that many of the liberal bloggers go overboard with their language. All the more reason for theological conservatives to take more care. Please.
John Sandeman

[10] Posted by obadiahslope on 05-01-2009 at 07:25 PM • top

John, you’re absolutely right.

I’m reminded of what Ashley Null insisted upon reminding us when he last visited Sydney, namely that Cranmer himself was unfailingly gracious and loving to those that he opposed. We should follow him as he followed our Lord.

Let’s be despised for speaking the truth, not for the way that we say it.

[11] Posted by David Ould on 05-01-2009 at 07:34 PM • top

I’m committed to an open comment policy.  I think it important that people be given a platform to express their views.  Some parts of TEC intentionally manipulate events so that the orthodox are not given a voice.  It is a gift to give people a place where they can share their thoughts.  That may well be part of the success of the blog.
That said, I sometimes cringe at the vitriol.  I wonder if we regular commenters feel so much at home, we become a bit unrestrained.  The blog operates on a shoestring budget.  The contributors have jobs and families.  We commenters need to police ourselves.
The good points of the SF comment threads:
—-Commenters feel free to quote scripture and pray in the threads. 
—-There’s a wealth of information in the links in the comments. 
—-The theological discussions can be meaty.
—-Some commenters are hilarious.

[12] Posted by Jill Woodliff on 05-01-2009 at 09:01 PM • top

Not that I’m petty or anything, but now that Ruth G. seems to be getting her stories straight off the keyboards of Jim Naughton and Mark Harris, maybe you ought to move her blog down a few places below its rather prominent position on your “blogs” link page.  After all, Preludium and the errr….“cafe not run by bb” don’t even make the list.  At best, Ruth ought to be down at the bottom.

[13] Posted by tjmcmahon on 05-01-2009 at 09:45 PM • top

Meh.

Mountain made out of molehill.  I’m happy that Fraser mentioned us—hope he linked to us.  ; > )

The amusing thing about the comment he deemed to be “nasty” is that it merely expressed an opinion.  It was, in my opinion, a *wrong* opinion—but it was a simple opinion, sans any name-calling or actual vitriol.  The commenter’s opinion was that the ABC was “doing, writing, saying and teaching evil” and “should be dethroned.”

That’s not vitriol.  That’s a stated opinion about ideas, not even the nature of the person.  It is an opinion, interestingly enough, that I completely disagree with.  But it is in no way “vitriol” or “nasty.”  There are lots of ways he could have said what he said with nasty names, or all sorts of vitriolic things.  But he didn’t.

So we move on to what Fraser believes is “vitriol” or “nasty”—and that is simply the expression of a fairly radical opinion that he does not share.

But . . . but . . . I thought that we were all supposed to support and include and affirm “risk-taking” and “radical” opinions.  But oh yes . . . only the liberal prophetic ones that Fraser agrees with.  That kind of radical, not this kind of radical. 

So what basically Fraser said is—“I don’t like conservative blogs and their comments—especially StandFirm’s.”

I feel honored.

[14] Posted by Sarah on 05-01-2009 at 10:38 PM • top

+1 on that, Sarah. If Giles Fraser doesn’t like us, we’re definitely doing something right.

[15] Posted by Greg Griffith on 05-01-2009 at 11:29 PM • top

Ignored again.  :-((

[16] Posted by Christopher Johnson on 05-02-2009 at 12:05 AM • top

Here I stand.  I cannot retract my words.  I hope my language shocks and shakes both Ruth Gledhill and Giles Fraser.  If my words are vile, so were those of Christ our Lord. 
When someone practices deception, no matter how intricate and opaque their language, it is poison and Jesus called them vipers.  When they obscured truth, Jesus called them blind guides.   

In cooperating with the political/sexual agenda deception, Ruth Gledhill and Rowan Williams have become vipers and blind guides.  Thus, they have discredited themselves, violated their offices and responsibilities as Christians in God’s plan of redemption.  They have become instruments of destruction and evil whereby many souls are being deceived.
 
Rowan Williams and Katharine Jefferts Shori preside over and perpetuate deception not life-giving love and liberating truth.  Theirs is the world of sexual sin, rape (Lambeth is the rape capital of the UK), abortion, priests and bishops, agencies that foment an agenda that stands against the truth of God and all the evidence in theology, Scripture, science research, clinical medicine and CDC statistics…plus the testimonies of Christians, both therapists and people who are being saved.

Sexuality, like abortion, is not just a nice civilized alternative choice, a ‘check one’ option, a mere personal preference; it is according to God’s Word Holy Scripture, a life and death decision and many human lives are at stake.  Sexuality has been an issue and part of the package since the fig leaves. 

As Christians, we either take up our crosses, we are to follow our Lord on the path of redemption or not.  If not, there are horrible consequences.  All are included I Corinthians 6:9-11

When the Church obscures truth it turns out the lights.  When the Church misrepresents and refuses to love, it destroys its own function and denies human beings what they were created to need and to learn to give.
There is not truth without love and no love without truth. 
When the Church cooperates with satan’s destruction and deception, it is not love, but hate and it is evil. 

This is a war between God and evil.

Exquisite buildings, vestments and traditions, endowments, history, noble and notable members, may have shrouded this fact, but it is a fact nonetheless.

This is a war between God and evil.

[17] Posted by Theodora on 05-02-2009 at 03:52 AM • top

This is a war between those who would discern God’s will, and those who would do what they want to do. And ask the Church to affirm it.

[18] Posted by Ralph on 05-02-2009 at 07:41 AM • top

I went shopping with my daughter yesterday and I saw sporks for sale. I started to laugh for it reminded me of the oven mitt - I was in a kitchen store ....
From my experience, I still think the left is far more mean spirited than the right but it maybe that I find the right has a better sense of humor.
Hat tip to the Wannabe Anglican for the following link:
http://www.redeemermorristown.org/Inclusivity/AsWeWorship.html

[19] Posted by martin5 on 05-02-2009 at 07:55 AM • top

Christopher Johnson -

Chris, you need to be nasty and vitriolic on your blog.  You need to use hate statements like:

“I disagree with Giles Fraser”
“I think the Archbishop of Cantebury needs to recheck his Bible”
“Ruth might want to go look up what constitutes a poor comment”
“I believe in Christ as a Sole Means of Salvation”
“I think that using the Bible as a Coffee Table Conversation Piece ONLY is a bad idea”
“Shori’s sermon ideas that approximate the breadth and width of Woodsy the Owl probably aren’t the best idea for Easter”

PERHAPS, if you drop to these horrific levels of depravity, MAYBE then Ruth and Giles will mention you in their wonderful journalistic commentary….

RAMP IT UP, MAN!

Eclipse

PS Sarah you Rock… LOL!

[20] Posted by Eclipse on 05-02-2009 at 08:28 AM • top

Sometimes I wonder if we are on the same planet with these people.  Elizabeth Kaeton once spoke of Mad Priest’s “occasionally salty language.”  On the rare occasions I have read his blog, I have found him unrelentingly vulgar.  Yet when anyone suggests that same-sex sexual relations are wrong and that they ultimately hurt those who engage in them, and any society that welcomes them, we are vile and despicable people, who can only be read by putting on metaphorical hip boots and an asbestos coat.  And I won’t go into the names they call us.  I guess they think the words they use are merely objective, not insulting.  No perspective to the “progressives”

[21] Posted by AnglicanXn on 05-02-2009 at 11:27 AM • top

Floridan,
I can’t see the point of attacking a journalist. Ruth Gledhill has come in for similar criticism from the liberal side as well.
As a journalist she will be required to report the activities and arguments of people she disagrees with as well as those she supports.
I have no particular brief for Ruth Gledhill’s output, but consider what is like for a christian working in the media. Im working for many years on a newspaper I have known christians to avoid the religion round because they know that they will have to report “the other side”, and that they will get attacked by fellow theological conservatives as a result. To take on the religion round is to go into a strange form of exile, in which your friends become suspicious of you if you do not report things exactly as they see them, or give space to the views of those they disagree with.
Journalists will get things wrong and stuff up. But they should be treated civilly.

[22] Posted by obadiahslope on 05-02-2009 at 08:16 PM • top

First off, Obadiahslope, I have not *attacked* Ruth Gledhill. 

I have criticized and decried her practice of slanting her writing, presenting one perspective, that of the pro-homosexualists as self-evident truth - - - which it is NOT. Evidence according to science, clinical psychology and medicine, Scripture and 2000 years of theologians stands against them. 

Instead, with intentionally-chosen words, Ms. Gledhill takes the position that research, reality, Scripture and theology are wrong and uses those verbs and descriptors to prejudice her readers and discredit any side but that of those who would reconstruct reality for their own agendas. 

In doing so, she is mis-using her privilege as a reporter.  The title of her column/blog should be “In My Opinion” or perhaps, “From My Perspective”

Those refuse evidence, reject and repress truth create in themselves an imbalance, inner dissonance, incongruity, inconsistency, double-mindedness/ambivalence, that leads to instability, uncertainty, cognitive distortions, distress, dysfunction, illness.  James 1:8; James 4:4; Romans 1:18-32

Scripture and the witness and disciplines of the Church of the Ages are meant by God to anchor the human soul.  Those who share the revelation that Jesus is Lord, whose human desires are focused and prioritized upon Christ as their first love, whose pride is replaced with healthy humility, who are submitted to the Scriptures and the Church (temporal, historical and eternal) and are led by the (true) Holy Spirit are growing in unity, maturity and love, are guarded from error, are upheld, healed and helped on their journey in life.  When we hold ourselves out as exemptions and exceptions to the wisdom and truth of God, we are in rebellion and endanger our relationship and union with God and every other Christian.  Schism begins with rebellion.

[23] Posted by Theodora on 05-03-2009 at 06:06 AM • top

correction: “Scripture and the witness, the unity/communion and disciplines (prayer, study, service, sacrifice), the koinonia fellowship (agape, belonging, transparency and accountability) of the Church are ordained by God, with His power to anchor us, change, restore and reorient us to God’s truth, to heal and deliver us from sin and its effects, to transform us into His image, to nurture and sustain and build us up, to enable us to love and act rightly and to give us the motivation, vision and desire to do good, to guide us home to Heaven and into the arms of our true Father.

[24] Posted by Theodora on 05-03-2009 at 06:30 AM • top

I must admit, if Gledhill published a piece that said (call it my nearly 50 years of experience denigrating into cynicism) something like “those Sf’ers, they’ve really got it right and are Godly representatives of what Christianity really is, an example we can all learn from no matter what” and if Fraser gave her an “Amen” to that I would be VERY worried and concerned that we have strayed too far to the left.

To me, the value of SF has always been to help this weak mortal define the battle lines.  SF and the contributors here have always kept me in the “foolishness” column (you know, like the Cross is to non-believers) and kept my eyes and psyche clear of where I stand versus where I NEED to stand.

But of course, I have you all to thank for that.

KTF!...mrb

[25] Posted by Mike Bertaut on 05-03-2009 at 08:05 AM • top

Have Mr. Fraser or Ms. Gledhill looked at the comments on other websites?

[26] Posted by oscewicee on 05-03-2009 at 08:40 AM • top

<blockquote>Have Mr. Fraser or Ms. Gledhill looked at the comments on other websites? </blockquote?

I don’t know a think about Mr. Fraser, but Ms. Gledhill’s blog has been host to some pretty nasty comments from all sides of the theological perspective.  I don’t consider that to refelect poorly on Ruth Gledhill, though.

[27] Posted by AndrewA on 05-03-2009 at 09:06 AM • top

Well, she apparently doesn’t return the favor.

[28] Posted by oscewicee on 05-03-2009 at 10:50 AM • top

These words would probably be considered quite “nasty” from those who are so repulsed by SFIF, but they are true. 

Do not be astonished, brothers and sisters, that the world hates you.  We know that we have passed from death to life because we love one another.  Whoever does not love abides in death.  All who hate a brother and sister are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them.
From 1 John 3

All we can do is heap “coals of kindness” on the heads of those who scorn us…and pray for them.  It’s like the video Greg posted of Keith Olberman and Michael Musto.  They are so impressed with themselves and their hatred of Miss California, they can’t see/hear how absolutely absurd they are.

[29] Posted by Liz Forman on 05-03-2009 at 11:07 AM • top

Slightly off topic, my apologies…
Floridian #23 “the pro-homosexualists”

I know we would probably struggle at times to get along - however, I really like your use of that term…IMHO it’s a much more accurate rendering of some of the rabid left wing = I have used a term often in the past “gay-fascist” to criticize gay men who are unable to see sympathetic gay positive heterosexual men -  all they see are “homophobes” and “closet cases.”  Mind you this doesn’t describe us all but it’s prevalent enough out there.  Pro-homosexualist is a good term for those who believe in absolute acceptance without exception.

[30] Posted by renzinthewoods on 05-03-2009 at 11:38 AM • top

Well, I read what Giles Fraser wrote, and his particular calling out of Stand Firm.  The quote from a comment that offended him, about the Archbishop of Canterbury being evil seems a little harsh and goofy, but it IS just one person’s opinion.  I am sure we all have opinions others would find harsh and goofy.

I wondered…IS Stand Firm particularly nasty, in relation to other blogs? So, I decided to time-box 5 minutes and click through liberal blogs to see if I could find something in that time worse than the quote Fraser was offended by.

So after three clicks of my mouse I found this quote on the “GAFCON” blog, a blog dedicated to mocking GAFCON priests and Bishops (ha! Ha! HA!).  This website is linked by people like <a >Rev. Dr. Jim Simons</a>, and it is even first on Dr. Simons’ list of <a >links of interest</a>.  Dr. Simons isn’t exactly a left-wing radical, but let’s take a look at a post from today:

After all: given how the future looks for little Matt Kennedy, especially in the light of his lawyers’ track record, who can blame him for trying to get in a little preparation prior to sharing a cell with a lifer named “Bubba” whose hobbies include weightlifting and making earnest young clergyman who’ve been convicted of fraud squeal like pigs. Hopefully when he finds the advice he’s looking for he’ll take it a little more seriously than he has that little verse in theBible that says “Thou shalt not steal”.

Yes, so here I found in about three clicks a “funny” post speculating about the homosexual rape of an Anglican priest. There is nothing wrong with a little humor and parody, but it is very instructive to know what people find funny.  It is very often in humor, you get the truth of what people are thinking. Of course, to many Episcopalians I can see why this is such an attractive joke; it mixes two favorite subjects: homosexual sex with the humiliation and physical harm of someone who left TEC, especially of someone as heterosexual as Matt Kennedy.  This is what the Episcopalians now running TEC enjoy has humor/fantasy.

So back to Giles Fraser…I wonder if speculating about homosexual rape is as offensive as some commentator stating that the Archbishop of Cantebury is evil.  I haven’t read anyone on Stand Firm saying that the ABC should be raped by a cellmate (and how hilarious that would be).

And what about people like Rev. Jim Simons?  Does he find humor in this kind of talk?  He has a link on his parish website, <a >right front and center</a>, to his own blog.  Maybe his congregants would like to read his first “blog of interest”, and see how hilarious homosexual rape is.

I also wonder if Dr. Simons really knows who has allied himself and his parish with.

DoW

[31] Posted by DietofWorms on 05-03-2009 at 12:17 PM • top

DoW, To summarize what I wrote: the ABC and Ruth Gledhill are cooperating with evil and an evil agenda.  How is that goofy?

[32] Posted by Theodora on 05-03-2009 at 12:26 PM • top

Rez, #30 - I’m not sure I have arrived at a good term for it, but ‘rabid unreasoning or unreasonable agendite’ could work for any group of persons who have no basis in evidence or reality for promoting their beliefs and deny the harmful outcome of practicing what they are promoting, whose operant strategy is to discredit, accuse, intimidate or do whatever it takes to silence every opposing voice.  I call this a malignant idealogy.
The unhealthy unScriptural behavior could be either hetero or homo - see Dr. Miriam Grossman’s website and the book, ‘Unprotected’ here where she, a psychologist who worked at a major University health service, exposes the hidden cost of sexual promiscuity, particularly to females:  http://www.miriamgrossmanmd.com/

Sin always harms - always - no honest science will ever refute Scripture.  God only proscribes what will harm us.

[33] Posted by Theodora on 05-03-2009 at 12:36 PM • top

Floridian, it is my opinion that your comment was a little goofy, specifically in the part where you say “continually and intentionally doing” because you are speculating what is in these people’s hearts.  Now that is in MY OPINION, a goofy statement, and maybe a bit harsh, but not nearly as offensive as speculating about a homosexual rape, which Episcopalians appear to find hilarious.  I WILL NOT argue with you about your quote, by the way.  You have your opinion and I have mine.  No harm intended, I just look at it different than you and we’ll have to leave it at that.

DoW

[34] Posted by DietofWorms on 05-03-2009 at 12:39 PM • top

Nowhere have I purported to fathom RW or Ruth Gledhill’s hearts; I have only remarked upon and disagreed with the consistent aim and direction of their actions and written words over time.  I do not understand how the words ‘continually and intentionally’ are anything but accurate, and not goofy.

Do you approve of Rowan Williams’ fulfillment of his office as ‘chief shepherd’ of the Anglican faith (if that is what his vows entail) or as a bishop and archbishop (defender of the faith, shepherd of shepherd) in Christ’s Church?

[35] Posted by Theodora on 05-03-2009 at 12:49 PM • top

DoW, I’m not angry, just puzzled…

Peace and good will in Christ

[36] Posted by Theodora on 05-03-2009 at 01:01 PM • top

I am simply appalled that people who are Episcopal ministers would link to a website that included a “joke”  about homosexual rape.

[37] Posted by FenelonSpoke on 05-03-2009 at 01:55 PM • top

My above post was in response tyo materail contained on the website of Rev. Dr. Jom Simons

[38] Posted by FenelonSpoke on 05-03-2009 at 01:58 PM • top

FenelonSpoke, such things would make it impossible to respect the order of the priesthood - if we didn’t have counter-examples posting on SFiF. Simons+ is not responsible for what a commenter posts on another blog, but you would think he might be more careful about linking to a blog where such postings are tolerated.

[39] Posted by oscewicee on 05-03-2009 at 02:14 PM • top

I don’t mean to imply that Rev. Simons thinks homosexual rape is funny, or approves of jokes about a fellow priest getting raped.

The point is how easy it is to find extremely vile blog postings from the left.  Two clicks from Jim Simons’ PARISH website and there is a joke/fantasy about a man getting raped.  A priest, no less, who has a family and takes care of a parish.

Nevertheless, Jim Simons consciously chose to have a website mocking Anglicans as his first “Blog of Interest”.  There is obviously something there that Jim finds appealing.  These are Jim Simons’ friends, not mine.  I have known men who have been raped.  I for one don’t find it very funny.  But who knows?  To a certain segment of the Episcopal church the idea may be hilarious.

DoW

[40] Posted by DietofWorms on 05-03-2009 at 02:40 PM • top

Floridan,
I will leave it to the reders of this blog to decide whether calling Ruth Gledhill an “instrument of evil” was an attack on her. You don’t think it was, other readers might disagree.

[41] Posted by obadiahslope on 05-03-2009 at 03:57 PM • top

If cooperating with an agenda that has taken over a church and turned it into an instrument of deception, robbing it of its purpose of delivering souls from captivity to death in sin, isnt evil, what is evil in your book, pray tell?

[42] Posted by Theodora on 05-03-2009 at 04:39 PM • top

correction - the captivity of sin and death….

[43] Posted by Theodora on 05-03-2009 at 04:52 PM • top

Floridan,
I am in sympathy with Standfirm’s view of same sex marriage, and like you oppose the destruction of churches by liberal “theology”. I am not challenging you on these issues. I am out of sympathy with your use of intemperate language.
Standfirm has an able team of leaders whose express their views extremely strongly. There is no need for commentators here to try to outdo the Standfirm team in how we say things.

[44] Posted by obadiahslope on 05-03-2009 at 05:03 PM • top

Obadiah Slope, I’m most sincerely sorry my language has offended your delicate sensibilities. 

However, a very wise, renowned, experienced and effective Christian therapist who deals with victims of childhood sexual abuse actually recommends the use of accurate Biblical language and calling evil what it is.  Truth is what heals and sets us free. 

My hope is that Biblical semantical accuracy may awaken those who are still not willing to face the facts about the condition of global Anglicanism.

Moreover, it is possible that temperate language, politeness and reticence were principle factors that permitted this scandalous outrage to happen in the first place and allowed a once-noble church to become an instrument of evil, opening the door and allowing the spirits of evil into its midst. 

This could not have happened if the people in charge had the knowledge and revelation of Jesus as Lord, the spiritual sight and discernment to discriminate between good and evil, between the kingdom of darkness and the Kingdom of Light (John 3:3) and taken the devil by the horns and cast him out on his sorry back side at the outset rather than accomodating with his plans and deceptions. 

Oh dear…. there I go again.

[45] Posted by Theodora on 05-03-2009 at 07:14 PM • top

Floridan,
I am not offended by your language, but merely sceptical about its effectiveness.
While Jesus was happy to call some “whited sepulcres”, to other sinners he was remarkably gentle. We will have to agree to disagree with each other about the appropriateness of your “instrument of evil” remark. The leaders of this blog seem to have made themselves clear, and been “semantically bold”, without going that far.

[46] Posted by obadiahslope on 05-03-2009 at 08:20 PM • top

Jesus could tell the difference between penitence and willful hard-hearted rebellion.

To the penitent, God is merciful. 

The willfully rebellious remain in the cruel grasp of the master of their own choosing. 

Unfortunately, the rebellious also bring misery and harm upon everyone in their field of influence as well as themselves. 

This is why everyone has been saying to the Episcopal Church and the West/North Anglican Provinces,
‘No’ has become, ‘NO! STOP!!!’

It is necessary to use such language as I have been using…as we see TEC and the Anglican Communion move in increased levels of brazenness and, yes, evil, while denying or distorting the truth of the Gospel and denying those who believe their lies The Gift of God: Salvation and the new and abundant life in Jesus Christ.

It is they who have attacked first.  Their attack is upon the Lord Himself and upon His Gospel, never forget that. 

All those who claim and use Christ’s Name are responsible for how they use it and for the fruit that they bring from the power of His Name.  Our job is to bring Him glory.

God has sent forth His word to heal them and to save them from their destructions. (Psalm 107:20)  The Father has sent His Son, the Holy Living Word Jesus Christ, The Written Word, the words of rebuke and correction from 2000 years of saints and Church Fathers, the words of concern and of warning of orthodox archbishops, bishops, theologians, lay leaders, bloggers and mere commenters….all in one voice aligned with the Shepherd’s Voice, saying, ‘Please, stop!’
 
We have prayed, and continue to pray for those who reject Christ, the written Word and the witness of the Church.  May they receive ears to hear, eyes to see, hearts to believe and the revelation that Jesus is Lord, the conviction of sin, of the righteousness and holiness of God and of the judgment to come. 

This is eternal life, to know the Father and the Son, to believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 3:3-16; John 17:3)

Through the atoning work of Jesus Christ, we receive victory over sin and death, freedom from the power of sin, righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. 

The abundant life Christ offers far exceeds the pleasures and gratifications offered by the world, flesh and devil whose temptations come at a cost and are subject to decay, theft, the turn of political power, economic swings or fashion; they come with chains of bondage or deadly toxins; as we take hold of them they grab us and take our souls.

[47] Posted by Theodora on 05-04-2009 at 04:37 AM • top

A lesson I learned from reading the essays by C. S. Lewis in _God in the Dock_ is that we confess our own sins. We are not to worry about the sins of others.

This means that I do not understand why the commentator on whose thread we are commenting would bring up the behavior of other people in this discussion. It isn’t a part of the discussion when you are being defensive.

There are blogs that will delete a response of someone who doesn’t obey the house rules.

That, in my opinion, is a good policy. A person can disagree without being disagreeable. Or, calling someone else evil (short of doing something like participating in true genocide). After all, I read somewhere that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Any website that does not delete commentary or comments that is disagreeable (not just disagreeing) or calling someone evil is publishing those comments. Back in the print days, would you blame the publication if they chose to print a letter to the editor that called someone evil? It is no different in an electronic medium.

Be responsible for what you publish. Require moderation, or regularly review comments for those that need to be deleted. Give readers a way to flag comments that need to be deleted. And, stop blaming other people for what is published on your website.

The TOS for this site prohibits specific posts. Do these terms mean anything?

[48] Posted by Bob Chapman on 05-06-2009 at 12:42 PM • top

Mr. Chapman,

I regret that my comments offend you. 

Evidently, our definitions of evil differ and I cannot in all conscience change mine or my position in this matter.

As I understand the Christianity and reality, it is evil when a church and her leaders obscure the truth of God, teach heresy, engage in syncretism, affirm and celebrate sin and those who approve and promote it, thus leaving many souls lost or confused, without the benefit of the redemption and healing power of God and in a life that research and statistics show will cause them pain, emotional and relational instability, physical injury, disease and early death. 

My worldview seems to be congruent with a significant amount of Scripture. 

For example:
Isaiah 5:20
Isaiah 56:10-12
Jeremiah 12:10
Jeremiah 23:1
Jeremiah 50:6-7
Ezekiel 34
Zechariah 10:3
Zecuariah 11:3
Zechariah 11:15-17
Malachi 2:7-9

This IS NOT a political/polity matter. 

It is a matter of good vs evil; truth vs lie; life vs death.

Lives are being ruined and lost and Jesus Name is being shamed, mis-used and disrespected.

I call that evil.

Can you show me in the Scriptures or in the Church Fathers a contradictory view of this matter?

[49] Posted by Theodora on 05-06-2009 at 02:49 PM • top

Floridian: Did I mention any of your posts in my post? 

If there is some confusion on this point, I was responding to David Ould’s commentary. In particular, I responded to the claim that only an individual contributor is responsible for the words posted by that individual:

When one follows the link it becomes obvious that these are the words of one of our many many commenters at Stand Firm. They “contribute” in the same way that people who call up radio talk-shows contribute to what the guests on the show are saying. In other words, they are individuals in their own right.

Many, if not most, radio stations (in the US) have a mute switch of some sort along with a time delay. If a caller says something that is against station policy, the engineer or announcer mutes the caller. Radio broadcasters take responsibility for what they broadcast, whether from a member of the station staff, a guest, or a caller.

Owners of web sites have the same responsibility for what is on a web site.

[50] Posted by Bob Chapman on 05-06-2009 at 03:52 PM • top

Or, calling someone else evil (short of doing something like participating in true genocide)

So a single murder, being far, far short of genocide, is not something I can call evil?

I think you are not saying what you really mean.  Perhaps you can clarify.

[51] Posted by AndrewA on 05-06-2009 at 04:02 PM • top

I am saying that a publisher needs to be responsible for what is published on its website, no matter who wrote it. It was in response to a claim that a website did not have responsibility for someone’s comments.

I did not write a comprehensive article on this.

Here is some new information that was not in my original post: I wrote my response before I read any of the responses.

[52] Posted by Bob Chapman on 05-06-2009 at 04:50 PM • top

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