Peter Ould: The Long-Term Problem with Two Provinces

By this logic, Nicea doesn’t permit denominations either.  For example, there is a Roman Catholic Bishop and Diocese in New York, an Episcopal Bishop and Diocese in New York and a Greek Orthodox Bishop and Diocese in New York, as well as others.

It is ironic for “progressives” to be appealing to a council that occurred 1700 years ago, and the other work of which is ignored and trampled upon.

Everyone should read through the Canons of the Council of Nicea. They will remind those who read them of the historic discipline of the Church. In that day, they did not put up with heresy and/or those who tolerated heresy. They saw the necessity of a pure Church (Yes I mean a visible entity!!!). I pray that God would save the Anglican Communion from fragmentation; because it is the last remaining ecclesiatical structure that most closly resembles the earliest Church. Namely, it is a worldwide group of bishops in voluntary communion with one another, in which all bishops are equal and decisions are made thorough the instrument of Church Councils. If the Anglican Communion breaks up, all we have left is Authoritarian Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy OR Individualistic and fragmented Protestantism.

Don’t agree - the “area” where I am sitting right now has an Episcopal Bishop, a Lutheran Bishop, a United Methodist Bishop, a Greek Orthodox Bishop, a Russian Orthodox Bishop, an AME Bishop, and many others whom the Lord recognizes as having oversight authority (and whom He will holds accountable) of His People.  I have no problem with a parallel province for it holds the prospect of reconciliation one day and may bring more Anglicans (and other denominations) back into relationship with one another in a way we haven’t seen, ever.  Remember, God is doing a new thing with the old faith.  The faith remains constant, but the structures are flexible.  It’s all ready happening, has been happening since the evangelical renewal broke out - we are not so much identified by our “tribe” as by our “creed.”  So now Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Vineyard, Bible Churches, Roman Catholics, etc. etc. etc are coming together through the power of the cross now more than ever.  I’ve seen this through the Alpha Course for the past ten-plus years.  Now the Anglican Communion could be a vehicle (if we are courageous) to help make such networking possible and bring more unity (and more fascinating conversations on theology) together more than ever.  Imagine what our seminaries will be like with the vast resources available across denominational lines, but within the orthodox faith.  A parallel province is a step towards that - and it means we still hold out hope for the prodical TEC, for those inside who God has called to remain a faithful remnant - to come home.

There is no perfect church.  As Martyn Minns said recently at Truro, “there is no perfect church for if I joined it, I’d ruin it.”  The discipline will be that we are separated (and the world will know that TEC does not have exclusive rights to the Anglican name), but the mercy and hope will be that we will some day be reunited.  They will take their inheritance and go spend it, as the prodical son did.  I can live with that.  It will then be up to TEC to decide if they can live with us in the meantime.

Will the primates be courageous and open the door to this?  I pray it is so.

bb

Let’s don’t shoot holes in our own boat that may be the only one available to save us. Having a parallel province in the US is the best option available for orthodox Anglicans in the US. Getting it done under any circumstances will be difficult.

With a few exceptions, the Anglican Communion does not seem to be in any hurry to discipline TEC. First, I would like to have a viable alternative to staying in TEC while remaining Anglican, and then worry about discipline TEC. Without a home soon for Orthodox Anglicans, in a year or so there will not be enough Orthodox Anglicans left to make any difference. Many orthodox that I know, and read on the blogs, including Matt Kennedy and Chris Johnson, seem about ready to walk away from TEC and the Anglican Communion in some other direction. Matt and Chris, please forgive me if I have mischaracterized your position.

A parallel province with the right to acquire parishes and dioceses from TEC should be a sufficient discipline. I’d feel the battle was lost if I were Ms. Schori.

What about the Roman Catholics having overlapping dioceses w/ Anglicans?  Should we bend the knee to the Papist? I do understand your point about disciplining TEC, however we do not live in the Niceian era.  I do so want to see Christians in the TEC to be disentangled from these bonds that so drag them down and get on with the mssion of the Church, the great commission.

Cullen

I would be interested to hear Peter Ould’s explanation of the Convocation of Americans Church in Europe and its bishop.

Don’t be assume too much, too quickly…  The RC Church can find a “work around” when needed.  I believe there are dual episcopates in China right now (public and underground), and perhaps overlapping jurisdictions in USA and elsewhere with Eastern rite and other “special” groups… someone feel free to help or correct me there.

A second province may not be a perfect solution BUT it would break the 815 claim to sole legitimacy (tho’ the practical monopoly already is gone), perhaps force a larger settlement of property, and allow orthodox to get out from under GC with true international representation and new breath for mission, etc.

It would not be a perfect fix but would represent a HUGE domino pushed over.  (Imagine diocesan conventions considering votes to reaffiliate…)

More than a few refugees also may return if they believed it was safe… just a few stray thoughts…

Baby Blue, some of what you say reminds me of what the Plymouth Brethren (started by and Anglican priest, J.N. Darby about 170 years ago in reaction of the clergy and institutional degeneration of that day.)  They emphasize the Body of Christ or the church catholic and consider denominations and church organizations can come and go and may or may not be of use in the Kingdom of God.  They oppose any structure that divides Christian from Christian, so are thought to be anti-clergy, anti-denominational as a result.  Over the years there developed many different lines which didn’t always get along with each other, but still managed to have a hugh missionary movement, orphaniges, publishing houses, and schools.  They are predominantly in China, Europe and Africa.  They are not too well known since they keep a low profile and aren’t interested in advertising.  At any rate, the Lord seems to always have a way to care for His sheep.  I enjoy the fellowship with believers from all types of denominations and all over the world I found sweet fellowship with believers in strange, unexpected places.  Maybe soon we will all be in one church rejoicing around the Throne and having great fun and fellowship.  Come, Lord Jesus.

As I posted on Peter Ould’s website, this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of not only Nicea, but also of Anglican ecclesiology, and the current situation of authority in the Anglican Communion today.

Apostolic Succession. Where the bishop is, where the sacraments are, where the Catholic Faith is taught; that is where the Catholic Church is. It is the organic and orthodox and catholic teaching of what the Church is. We must get our heads out of our denominational and juridical mindsets and return to a truly sacramental understanding. That is also what is wrong with a statement like this:

Don’t agree - the “area” where I am sitting right now has an Episcopal Bishop, a Lutheran Bishop, a United Methodist Bishop, a Greek Orthodox Bishop, a Russian Orthodox Bishop, an AME Bishop, and many others whom the Lord recognizes as having oversight authority (and whom He will holds accountable) of His People.

This is denominationalism, pure and simple. It is not a Catholic teaching. The common belief in Jesus is not the litmus test of what the Church is. It is a necessary part, but not a necessary and sufficient part. It is also not Anglican. Methodists and Vineyard type churches do not have Succession, do not teach the fullness of the Catholic faith, and do not have the seven sacraments. At best, they are “ecclesial communities”, but are not valid churches under the traditional understanding of the term. Not to say they aren’t good Christians, mind you, but they do not meet the definition. How God thinks/deals with this situation, we cannot know.

For more information about this, see What Is Catholic?, which is a response to the Protestant mindset about these and similar issues. (Interestingly, it is a response to the brother of Peter Ould, David. Please take this essay in consideration of what “Anglican Junkie” wrote as a response to David, which can be found here.)

Babyblue , Information on Eastern Rite Catholic Churches can be found at
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
” They have their own hierarchy distinct from the Latin Rite, system of governance (synods) and general law, the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches. The Supreme Pontiff exercises his primacy over them through the Congregation for the Eastern Churches. ”

A blast from the past on a “parallel province.”

http://p199.ezboard.com/The-Crisis-of-PECUSA/fsjdchristianeducationforumfrm34.showMessage?topicID=1.topic

Bill+

Bill+,
Your paper was groundbreaking 4 1/2 years ago.  It was a riveting read today. 
Robert

Hi, I finally got around the registering.  So this my first comment on SF.  But feel free to ignore me. 
Prodigal is correct about Rome’s overlapping jurisdictions of Latin Rite and Eastern Rite bishops.  Also, Eastern Orthodoxy in the USA lives in the contradiction of its own strict adherence to the conciliar canons due to the overlapping of Greek, Russian, OCA, Antiochian, etc. jurisdictions.  Ould’s argument only holds true in the ideal world.