BREAKING: Church of Scotland Result

I wonder if Scott Rennie is related to recently arrested pedophile, James Rennie, also of Scotland? When I googled for a photo of him, he appears to have quite a resemblance to James Rennie, whose photograph is online with the reports of his arrest.

thats a bit of a low blow isn’t it Mari?

Mari, 
They found videos of James Rennie of Edinburgh and another man sexually abusing an 18 MONTH OLD boy.  He had his room decorated to look like a child’s bedroom. 
A quote from article with photo linked below: “On the surface, Neil Strachan and James Rennie held down good jobs and were trusted members of the community.
But the pair, both from Edinburgh, had a shared interest in young boys and had collected some of the worst child abuse images ever seen by police experts.
They were also responsible for the abuse of very young children - one as young as three months old.
Rennie, 38, was the successful chief executive of LGBT Youth Scotland, an organisation dedicated to helping young gay people.”
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Paedophile-Ring-In-Scotland-Operation-Alegebra-Snares-Ringleaders-Neil-Strachan-and-James-Rennie/Article/200905115277440

Disgusting! uggh!To harm children….reprehensible!

Hi Mari et al…whether these men are related (which I very much doubt)is really not relevant to this thread. There is no reason to draw any sort of line between these two men because they share a last name. As a “Kennedy” I am fairly sensitive about that kind of thing

Yeah, Matt, you’re no Jack Kennedy.

-Lloyd Bentsen

Well, it’s too soon to see what the fallout of this fateful decision is going to be and how momentous (or not) it may prove to be, but in some ways this tragic decision is the predictable result of the continuing de-Christianization of western culture.  “Mainstream” churches, and especially state churches like the CoS or the CoE, find it extremely hard to go against the prevailing cultural currents.  That’s why we are continually being driven and virtually forced into adopting an openly adversarial, confrontational, Christ-against-culture mode of Christianity in our time.

That’s why I keep calling for a “Post-Christendom” style Anglicanism as a necessary part of the New Reformation. 

Let it be noted by all that the CoS is far more theologically clear and coherent than the CoE has ever been, and yet that greater theological clarity in its OFFICIAL theology (in its creedal formularies) hasn’t kept the CoS from falling prey to the same unbiblical “working theology” (to use Dr. Philip Turner’s apt phrase) that has so corrupted TEC.  And that’s because I think it’s similarly just captiulated to the ungodly spirit of the age.

How sad.  Somehow, I’m reminded of a grim saying, that IIRC comes from the dark days when the Nazis were rapidly conquering western Europe (but perhaps it goes back to WWI instead), “The lights are going out all over Europe.”

We appear to be on the verge of another Dark AGe, when European civilization collapses, due to internal moral decay and the spread of spiritual darkness more than external threats or anything else.  At the end of the first millenium, it was the quiet spread of little monastic communities that saved and revived western civilization.  With their “hunger for God and the love of learning” (Jean LeClerq) those deeply committed monks laid the solid spiritual and literary foundations on which the cultural achievements of Europe in the second millenium would be built.

But if we are indeed on the cusp on being plunged into another horrible Dark Age, what instrument will God in his inscrutable wisdom choose to use this time?

David Handy+

Here’s another news quote that may link the two a bit more than names: 
“As a student he [James Rennie] had taken a keen interest in student union politics and when he graduated, Rennie had moved into youth work, rapidly rising to prominence.  He managed the Stonewall Youth Project before his appointment as chief executive of LGBT Youth Scotland, an organisation which campaigns for the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered young people. Rennie was an opinion former, a mover and shaker. He was consulted by the Scottish Parliament over policy. He met the Queen and went to Downing Street to shake hands with Tony Blair.”

Perhaps, since the Queen (who appointed Rev. Scott Rennie) and Tony Blair are involved, it is somewhat pertinent.  Tony, as you all know, has been lecturing and scolding the pope about changing the Catholic church to accept homosexuality and abortion.  Tony Blair’s religious think tank is trying to promote a global religion that will accomodate these things. 

Rev. Scott Rennie was not appointed accidentally.  His appointment was an intentional political maneuver.  James Rennie was also part of the same ‘in crowd’ political alliance…(along with RW and the rest). 

It will be interesting to see if there are further connections.

Thank God for that.

Floridian, that particular line of commentary has already been ruled out of bounds. I do not care whether these two men are brothers by blood or not. That one is a pedophile says nothing about the moral character of the other. Please do not persist in taking this thread off topic.

Interesting link on the story http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/9507

#11,

Some interesting things in the article.  One was that many ministers did not express which side they were on prior to the Convention.  With what has been reported in some other articles, I can understand the reluctance to oppose the homosexual community as it is almost and probably soon will be a criminal offense in the U.K. to homosexuality for any reason.  I wonder how long till this happens in the U.S.

Not long in my opinion. But how sad really….

comment deleted—off topic.

Ahh yes.  More “facts on the ground” instead of having the guts to make a legislative decision.  Why do the GLBT activists never have the GUTS to pass a resolution that their various uses of their “manner of lifestyle” or whatever is no longer an impediment to anything in the church.  What a bunch of WEENIES.  No pun intended.

How sad that the church (and state) is so ignorant of psychology and science and so spiritually blind…and rebellious.

There are some that are not deceived.  Thank God for the Fellowships of Confessing Anglicans springing up throughout the Western Provinces.
The Lord is with those that are with Him, those who fear Him and follow in His ways.
Exodus 34:9-10; Psalm 103:17; Numbers 14:8; Deuteronomy 10:12; Deuteronomy 20:4; Deuteronomy 29:12; Judges 6:12; Judges 10:5; II Samuel 7:3; Psalm 46:7; Psalm 118:6-9

Good grief, it’s a long, long, long way from John Knox.

I recall that the CoS went apostate decades ago.  The orthodox left such as the Banner of Trugh crowd like Iian Murray and formed thr Free Church of Scotland.  maybe some in the know can fill in this story.  Amazing how long a group like this can persist.

Typos—Truth and the Free——I don’t even try on spelling.AC

update, see OP

What is OP?

sorry driver.
Original Post (or Poster)

Yes, the relatively thin margin and the fact that the other key vote won’t take place until Monday night does mean that it’s not all over yet.  But chances are that pretty good that the tipping point has been reached and the CoS has keeled over.

Recall that back in 2003, the vote in the TEC HoB over Gene Robinson’s confirmation was roughly 60%-40%, but a lot less than 40% of the bishops are connected with the Communion Partners group now, nor did they all join the former Network (ACN).

I think the article cited by TLD in #11, and now quoted at the end of the original post that David Ould has helpfully updated, is indeed quite revealing.  For the unwary, it should perhaps be pointed out that the ekklesia website referred to here is not +Bill Atwood’s, but bills itself as representing “A New Way of Thinking.” 

And the first sentence of the report gives away which partisan perspective it upholds, when it sympathetically describes those who supported the Aberdeen Presbetery’s decision to allow Mr. Scott Rennie to take up his post as being relieved that the campaign of “hatred and bigotry” against him failed.  And the same shamelessly false charge is repeated in the last sentence of the report as well, where the ediotrs have highlighted a remark by a commentator on BBC’s Radio 4 program that the campaign launched by evangelicals like Dr. William Philip was “bigotry masquerading as doctrine.”

The cultural tide has certainly turned against biblical Christianity in Scotland, just like the rest of western Europe and North America.  That’s what this is all about.  And I suspect BillB got to the heart of the problem with his comment #12 above.  It’s quite likely that it will soon become not only politically incorrect but downright illegal to publicly oppose the gay rights juggernaught.  And state churches are notorioussly incapable to standing up the state, or the prevailing culture.  And as a result, established churches like the CoS get “blown about by every wind of doctrine” or carried away by the fickle tides of cultural opinion.

This is a systemic problem, and it thus calls for a systemic solution.  What is needed is nothing less than a completely different system for relating to the surrounding culture in the secularized, de-Christianized Global North.  The Christendom approach has had a great run, for roughly 1500 years or so, but it’s now time to adopt a radically different approach, one more in the style or Cyprian and even Tertullian than of Augustine or F. D. Maurice.

I know I’m sounding like a broken record in repeating this theme so often, but I think the big takeaway lesson from a decisive defeat like this is that the whole state church or Constantinian model of church life is now obsolete and counter-productive.  We are increasingly being FORCED away from Richard Niebuhr’s preferred “Christ the Transformer” model of how Christians relate to the culture they live in that has been so popular for 50 years, and we’re being virtually COMPELLED, willy nilly, whether we like it or not (and of course we don’t), into a strident, adversarial, confrontational, “Christ against culture” mode of operation.

That has massive and far-reaching implications.

David Handy+

When I first checked this thread early on, I must admit to being appalled by Mari’s comment.  I truly appreciate the administrative guidance that occurred.  Back on track, can someone clarify for me - at another place an individual wanted to know if these were Presbyterians.  This is the Scottish Anglican Church,right?  Not Presbyterians.  How big a church is this in Scotland?

David Handy, Preach on brother! It’s a brave new world.

RE: “We are increasingly being FORCED away from Richard Niebuhr’s preferred “Christ the Transformer” model of how Christians relate to the culture they live in that has been so popular for 50 years, and we’re being virtually COMPELLED, willy nilly, whether we like it or not (and of course we don’t), into a strident, adversarial, confrontational, “Christ against culture” mode of operation.”

Yeh—brave new world—we’re really going to be completely new and different and launch a “completely different system”—by returning to the early 20th century and the sad downfall of fundamentalism by being “Christ against culture.”

When might we expect David Handy to begin his own gated Christian college, with barbed wire to keep the worldly out?

Sorry, but the whole Christ against, Christ transforming battle runs in fairly typical cycles, and has done so for 2000 years.  People who are “compelled” into a “strident, adversarial, confrontational, “Christ against culture” mode of operation” do so because they like it and it fits their personality.

subscribing then off to Mass…
Intercessor

This is the Presbyterian.

The UK has two established churches. In England, the established church is the Anglican Church of England. In Scotland, the established church is the Presbyterian Church of Scotland.

(FWIW In Scotland the Anglican church body by the name of the Scottish Episcopal Church).

Sarah, It would be most helpful and interesting to read your exact definition of normative classical genuine faithful Christianity and Anglicanism.

So, #28 Driver8, Are both the Presbyterian Church of Scotland and the Scottish Episcopal Church under the authority of the Crown?  Are both equally unfaithful to Scripture and infected by the PC idealogy?

Floridian,
The Scottish Episcopal Church is not established (or ‘under the crown’). However, it is supportive of TEC - so the argument that it is legal establishment which causes liberal social attitudes in UK churches is questionable.

I’m sorry, are historical questions off topic?  So which is the church that participated in creating TEC when none of the CoE bishops would help.  And are they considered part of the Anglican Communion or not?  Or is the Scottish Episcopal Church part of the Anglican Communion?  Help?

Renz, the The Scottish Episcopal Church (Scottish Gaelic: Eaglais Easbaigeach na h-Alba), which is part of the Anglican Communion, but which is NOT the established church in Scotland, participated in concentrating the first bishops of the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States (PECUSA).

For an intro to the history of Scottish Episcopal Church and its relation to the Church of Scotland, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Episcopal_Church#Reformation

Sarah (#26),

I must protest; I think you’ve badly misjudged me and my persistent calls for a Christ-against-culture style, Post-Christendom Anglicanism.  I would’ve thought that after almost the 3,000 comments that I’ve posted here at SF and T19 that you’d know better than to accuse me (of all people) of wanting to return to early 20th century fundamentalism.  After all, Matt+ and others here have often accused me of being a liberal in conservative’s clothing, so it certainly seems strange for someone as discerning as you are to accuse me of being a fundamentalist separatist at heart.

Rather, as I’ve consistently stated, I’m interested in going MUCH further back in time for my inspiration, namely to the pre-Constantinian Church of the first to third centuries.  If I’m a separatist at all, it’s in an early catholic (patristic) way, not in the usual sectarian Protestant way.

Of course, I realize that to debate that whole complex subject would take us fairly far off-topic, so I’ll let it go.

Anyway, thanks to “TheOtherJRichardson” (#25), for his support.

David Handy+

AndrewA (#33)

Thanks for a nice laugh, if probably unwittingly supplied, after my brief tussle with Sarah.  You wrote that the Scottish Episcopal Church “participated in concentrating the first bishops of [PECUSA].”

Well, I suppose that in the same way that as I think Ben Johnson said, the prospect of hanging can wonderfully concentrate the mind, it’s probably true that the minds of some early Episcopal bishops were “concentrated” by the Connecticut high-church onnection to the Anglican church in Scotland (descended from the high church non-jurors).  But I’m pretty sure you meant that the Scottish bishops participated in consecrating Samuel Seabury as the first Anglican bishop in this country.  That historic event took place in Aberdeen, Scotland on Nov. 14, 1784, and is included as a lesser feast in the calendar of the 1979 BCP.

But Seabury was the only bishop ordained by the Scots.  The next couple bishops were able to be consecrated in England, and from then on the Americans could ordain their own bishops without foreign help.

Anyway, I hope you don’t mind my calling attention to the blooper.  As all regular SF readers know, I’m certainly guilty of plenty of careless typo’s myself, but they’re seldom that funny.  And yours was just too delightful to let slide.

David Handy+

Just a question:  if it is found that James and Scott Rennie are indeed related, would you consider this newsworthy?

“Mr Rennie, who was married, is now in a relationship with another man.”

Once again we see that Separate is a higher form of “equality” in these enlightened times.

“Just a question:  if it is found that James and Scott Rennie are indeed related, would you consider this newsworthy?”

Only if we want to judge someone by their family. I personally would be very uncomfortable about that. There are members of my family I would not want to be judged by, and Jesus did give us the Golden Rule.

The Presbyterian Church in New Zealand had this kind of wrench when Lloyd Geering was put on trial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Geering