+Frade: Fornicating RC Priest to Cause Massive Influx Tomorrow

Am I the only one embarrassed by this?  I’m not even part of TEc any longer and I’m ashamed.

WOW! so finally TEO has a plan for evangelism and growth.  They can just pick off the various groups by getting one member from each group to join and then trumpet it so the rest flock in.  I think the shrinks in their DSM-4 list thirty sexual deviations so think of the growth.  Wonder why the LGBT group have been so negligent to do evangelism in their group.  Need to jack them up.  Maybe make them go to some baptist Thursday night visitations and learn the techniques.  Wonder if Evangelism Explosion has their program on DVD or webb.  Maybe Integrity could push this.  TEO could really specialize in this and who knows, put the Metropolitan Church crowd out of the running.  Developing….

A new banner for TEO:  You don’t have to leave your brain at the door and we won’t take your sin from you either.

[3] PROPHET MICAIAH

Perhaps the new TEC motto should be “You don’t have to leave your other brain at the door.”  The brain most women think most men spend most of their time thinking with.

carl

It may be a short term growth for the TEC in Miami.  Fr. Alberto is a very charismatic priest, but charisma can only take a person far.  Concerning the RC, the Miami Herald reported today that the Archbishop is not too happy with Bishop Frade and is quoted as saying that the Pope can release Fr. Alberto from the vows. A lot of good will has been spent.
This may get more interesting.

“A new banner for TEO:  You don’t have to leave your brain at the door and we won’t take your sin from you either.”
I rather like “Come as you are and stay as you are.”
BRad

Leo’s hope:

that we might be able to take advantage of this appropriately but without throwing this in the face of our brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church.

didn’t prevent the Bishop from getting his face in this AP video report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFDBoAv9268

Just took a look at the photos of Ruhama Buni Canellis, and have decided that I totally understand and concur with Padre Alberto.  She definitely looks worth leaving the priesthood and becoming an Episcopalian.  Reminds me of why it was so pleasurable being an Episcopalian as a teenager.

I think that my Most Gracious Lord Southeast Florida is in for an unpleasant surprise. Bp. Frade, don’t start looking for real estate and new pews just yet.  Father C.‘s past appeal has related to a large extent to his status as a Roman priest. The public, particularly the unchuched, have a fascination with Romanism and it clergy—the perception of mystery, the ancient and supposedly “secret” traditions and rules, etc. Post-Reformation churches don’t carry that patina of mystery and intrigue.  That’s why Dan Brown’s little piece of lierary excrement excited so much interest—and why Brown was savvy enough to write a novel about Romanism, not Presbyterianism or the Hussites.  Priestly celibacy is part of the public’s perception of mystery—the fascination that a person would choose such earthly deprivation, the question of whether the cleric is faithful to his vows, the imagining of what immense rewards, earthly or othewise, must be forthcoming in exchange for such great sacrifice.  Now, the public will see Fr. C as just “another Protestant minister.” (However incorrect the “Protestant” title is from a theological and ecclesiastical point of view).  I predict a corresponding decrease in his public appeal and capital.

Prophet Micaiah, I have heard that the Metropolitan Church has, either currently or in the recent past, looked whether it is necessary for them to continue as an organized group in light of the policies of the TEC and UCC.

Razaq, I’m quite sure that I don’t understand what you are talking about.  During my pre-marital counseling, I was told that once the stole was placed on the trembling hands of me and Dr. Babb, I was thereafter to view all women older than me as I would my mother and aunts, and all women younger than me as sisters or daughters. At my current age of 46, the young Ruhama looks like she would be in the daughter category. I am therefore unable to comment further on your post.

How typical, and sad, that a bishop of TEC pins hopes of increasing membership on something other than the clear presentation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  It’s all about personality, celebrity, relevance (or perceived relevance), so it seems.

Fr. Darin Lovelace
St. David’s Anglican Church (soon to be ACNA!)
Durant, Iowa

Anglicans have been picking off Roman Catholics, and vice versa, ever since the days of Henry VIII. Hunting is a noble sport as long as it doesn’t degenerate into sheep-stealing.

At our place, we regularly pick up new members when a Roman Catholic falls in love with a Southern Baptist, something that happens fairly often in the Bible Belt.

In the revisionist fracas within Anglicanism, the “Come Home to Rome” signs have been springing up everywhere, and the current Bishop of Rome has been openly welcoming Anglicans “back into Christianity.” So, if this or that RC bishop is offended by the present matter, well he’ll just have to get over it.

After all, the grass is hardly greener on the RC side of the Tiber.

I suspect we will have a massive influx tomorrow. An influx of Episcopalians coming for the parish picnic after the Pentecost service.

I don’t think many people are going because of a new found faith. I think it’s more like people visiting houses where infamous crimes have occurred. A short of train wreck voyeurism.

Has it been confirmed that Fr. Cutie has been having sex in this relationship?  I am not sure that this is clear.  When he says that he has abandoned his vow of celibacy, that could mean simply that he has given up his promise to never marry.  It does not necessarily mean that he has been fornicating.  Or have I missed something?

I dunno how successful it will be, considering who Fr. Cutie’s base was, TEC’s revisionism will have them running back to the Catholic church.

Episcopal, what is this Episcopal Church of which he speaks? Please send me some promotional materials and a handy pocket guide to this never before known about wonderful freeing inclusive church. For which I poor sinner would be most humbly glad to join since it is so modern and understanding about the snares of the flesh. Oh I want the damn steak knives, too.

Interesting take from the ENS at this link.  Says this woman is his fiance and that “The Episcopal diocese said in its release that Cutié, after a two-year discernment process, decided to begin his ministry and the path to priesthood within the Episcopal Church.”  Wonder why we only found out about this “two-year discernment process” after the beach pics surfaced?  Huh.  Interesting.

http://rafaelmartel.com/2009/05/29/¡ahora-si-padre-alberto-joins-the-episcopal-church

#13…...
Seriously, have you seen the photos on South Beach?  Do you think Fr. “Randy” is rolling around in the hay (I mean, sand)just to get a tan?  This boy is doing the big nasty virtually in public view and we are excited that he has become a convert. To quote a famous church lady, “Isn’t that special?”

I have seen the photos, and yes, they are being passionate, but I don’t know that that proves anything.  I understand that this sounds like I am totally naive, but I just don’t think we should automatically assume that they were having sex.  Again, in typically R.C. parlance, to “break celibacy” only means to give up your vow to not marry.  Has Fr. Cutie actually confessed a sexual relationship?

#13,18 Hindustaaniwalla Hatterr
He’s got his hand down her bathing suit bottom.  I don’t think that he was looking for his car keys.  If that doesn’t tell you everything you need to know about his conduct, then I think I’ve wasted enough pixels already in this response.

I think the news about a 2 year discernment process is damage control and it does not pass the smell test.

I simply can not imagine a priest who is having serious doubts on Catholic doctrine not discussing such a thing with his spiritual director, his superior or his bishop or perhaps all three.  True if any of these discussion came under the seal of the confessional we would not be privy to such.

But if such doubts came about because the priest was falling in love I tend to believe he would be given pretty much an either or ultimatum.  And if the choice was not to remain in the priesthood given the proper steps to become laicized. 

I just don’t see a spiritual director saying “Let’s just see how it pans out. After all you have to follow your heart.”

Hindustaaniwalla Hatterr:

I understand that this sounds like I am totally naive, but I just don’t think we should automatically assume that they were having sex.

Priest in Racy Photos: “I had sex with her.“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/11/earlyshow/leisure/celebspot/main5005429.shtml

My guess is that the “discerement process” is that he has been thinking about it for the past two years.  It So he had a backup plan in case he got caught.  Remember words mean only what they think they mean.  I doubt he has been in discussions with TEC since then, although either way it is pretty bad.  He’s been nurturing a back-up plan behind his Bishop’s back or TEC is calling thinking about it a discernment process.  Sad

Is Schori aware that this guy is openly heterosexual?  I smell scandal soon at TEc.

I plan to stay off the roads Sunday morning to avoid all the traffic consisting of folks heading to the nearest TEc Building to sign up.  As to Cutie having had sex with his cutie, I don’t think that hand of his down her bikini bottom was some form of New Age blessing.  I guess, though, that there is always the Billie Clinton defense - Cutie’s hand had sex with her, but he didn’t, and what the meaning of “had” is and all that jazz.  Sheesh!

Again, I recommend everyone watch the CBS interview which is found here: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5005578n.  He came off rather well to me because he clearly confessed that what he did was wrong, said he was sorry and apologized for it.  There was no attempt by him to gloss things over.  He talked candidly about his struggle with celibacy, for which he had sought much counsel and direction.  He admitted he probably should have left the church a year ago but said there is much pressure with such decisions, leading me to believe that he had been discussing it with those over him and they obviously were pushing him strongly against it.  So, the two year discernment process was not entirely damage control.  Frankly, it’s hard not to like the guy.  On the other had it is simply embarrassing the way that Bishop Frade has used this “scandal” to generate publicity for his diocese…

How can the Episcopal Church have come to this? That we elect Bishops with the moral compass and spiritual insight of the OK! Magazine.

Nevin, the one’s seeking publicity is TEC, hyping a priest who violated his vows, and lied to his congregation and his bishop, and touting him as attracting hordes of new worshipers.

Bishop Frade is the publicity seeking TEC bishop in Florida.

Don’t want to go off topic, but Dio SE Florida has women as priests. I wonder what Cutie’s position is on womens’ ordination.

Saying that, to say, how faithful a RC was he? Was his switch a disagreement in theology as well as discipline? What has +Frade bitten off? His Diocese, like others, has been affected by significant ‘female-related’ discipline issues.

The CBS radio news described Fr. Cutie’s conduct with the young lady as “canoodling”. In my ten years as a diocesan chancellor, two terms on the Standing Committee of my diocese, and three years on the Standing Commission on Constitution and Canons, I have not yet encountered the term “canoodling” as atype of eclesiastic offense. It does not appear to be a defined term under Title IV of the Canons. Can someone help me out here? Perhaps it is peculiar to Roman usage.

Kevin,
I believe it is known as the “Canoodle Canon”, though no one can show proof that it ever really was approved by General Convention. 

Frade, another epitome of “Episcopal grace and style”.  And the fallen Roman WANTS to be associated with this?  I mean simply on the social grace scale this is a step -big step bacwards.

Just got home from a great Cursillo Ultreya! WOW!

In regards to this:

Maybe the straight priest having sex outside of marriage will do for membership what the gay priest having sex outside of marriage couldn’t:

It might be because more people can relate to “straight people having sex outside of marriage” then there are people that can relate to “gay people having sex the only way they can have sex of some kind (??????? don’t want to think about it) which is outside of marriage”..........sadly! But the Church is a hospital for sinners as long as you come in and want to get well and not stay in your sinning sickness! And any kind of sex outside of marriage is a sin!

I listened to the interview.  I have to say that I think this man is not going to be happy as an Episcopalian, and I am afraid that unhappiness will be quite a strain on the marriage. 

I also read the entire statement of the Catholic bishop and begin to see why he is so upset with the Episocpal bishop.  As he points out, several Episcopal priests have become Catholic in his diocese for doctrinal reasons, and there was no attempt to make this public or boast about it.  Now here is one of his priests come to spiritual ruin, at least from a Catholic point of view,  and the Episcopal bishop is publicly minimizing his sin and making a big public show of his “catch” of a celebrity priest. 

Not a pretty story.

Susan Peterson

Body and blood with Jerry Springer…
Intercessor

Considering that St. Peter himself (and popes for several centuries) were married, the Roman Bishop of Southeast Florida is out of order with his unchristian, narcisistic remarks about a man of faith simply wanting to be a priest who is also a normal heterosexual human. The Roman Bishop’s use of the prodigal son analogy misuses scripture and condescends to a new low of disrespect.  Perhaps if the Roman Church opened the priesthood to men with statistically normal sexual proclivites, it would not be paying billions of dollars in legal settlements for its pedophilic sacerdotal escapades. Priests swimming the Tiber to Canterbury is nothing new. It’s just that he’s high profile. And if he fills a few pews, that’s life. Yes, this is embarassing for the Roman Church. But it is embarassment of their own making.

[36] DesertDavid

Perhaps if the Roman Church opened the priesthood to men with statistically normal sexual proclivites, it would not be paying billions of dollars in legal settlements for its pedophilic sacerdotal escapades.

Just a minor correction from this board’s registered ‘anti-Catholic’ (so I have no axe to grind.)  You should have said ‘homosexual sacerdotal escapades’ because the crisis to which you refer was composed overwhelmingly of homosexual priests seducing teenage boys.  Heck, in a few years, what largely happened won’t even be illegal anymore given the general trajectory of laws regarding age of consent.  Anyways, it wasn’t about skulking priests looking for a good time with prepubescent boys.  It was about skulking priests looking to introduce troubled teenagers to the promiscuous glories of the gay side.  Give attention to historical accuracy, man.  It’s important.

I do however think your point is well taken about the impact of letting priests experience a normal sexual life.  But it isn’t going to happen.  It would cost (way, way, waaay) too much, and interfere with the control the church currently has over its priests.  Besides, those who will make the decision have made and kept the vow.  The last they desire is to see that sacrifice devalued to nothingness.  For if priests can suddenly marry, then what was the point of their vow?

carl

One of the things that Rome would not want the world to know is that Roman Catholic priests have a long history of having mistresses. Cranmer was unusual in that he was secretly married while a RC priest and Archbishop of Canterbury.

The simple fact is that not everybody who is called to Holy Orders is called to celibacy and chastity. Rome knows that, but cannot deal with it.

I suspect that Fr. Cutie would not have been released from his vows for three reasons: 1) He is a prominent, famous priest. 2) His girlfriend is a divorced mother. 3) Their relationship (whatever it was) became front-page news.

He’s preaching at Miami’s Church of the Resurrection this AM. One prays that he will have the good sense to stick to the lessons.

#34—I agree that he is not likely to be a happy Episcopalian.  There are not very many happy “piskies” to be found anywhere these days.  The gays are never happy, regardless of whatever, and their unhappiness spreads quickly.  Personally, I cannot imagine showing my face in a pulpit in the present circumstances, so he may have the makings of a better Episcopalian than we realize right now.

For a real contrast in Priesthood
read Leander Harding’s
http://www.leanderharding.com/blog/2009/05/30/on-the-anniversary-of-my-ordination/

One more suggestion for a TEC banner:

“Tired of being criticized?  Tired of that nagging conscience?  Come to TEC—no questions asked!”

I think the sexual affair itself may satisfy TEC’s definition for “discernment process”.

And, yes, celibacy only covers the vow not to marry but I’m not encouraged that he’s decided to join a church with no requirement of chastity.  The priest of my childhood church taught us chastity was required of all Christians “both within and without marriage”, and he didn’t mean there wasn’t to be a robust sexual life between married people, but that it should still be holy.

*yawn*  No brainer as to why he picked the Episcopal Church; it has not rules.

Ralph, you are aware that Catholics of Eastern Rite may be married before ordination (priests not Bishops.) 

We Catholics usually warn our sons about the skulking priest press gangs lurking about in the nave before and after Mass.  We even caution them about taking a coin from supposed well meaning members of the Friars Minors or Benedictines or Trappists. Since we know that to touch the Vatican coin is to pledge yourself to a lifetime of indentured servitude.  But Rome is sneaky and well sometimes pull in innocent youths by posting fake help wanted ads on Craigslist. 

Worse of all the whole celibacy is never mentioned during the time in seminary.  It is never fully explored.  It is shrugged off as some off the wall rumor spread by some malcontents.  “No son I am afraid you may not access Snopes on the seminary computer.”  Well you can imagine the consternation and chagrin of those poor lads when they find out that celibacy is part of their priestly vows.  Why if it were not for the duct tape and nylon cord many would walk away right then and there.  Leaving the Bishop speechless at the altar.

As for your contemptable assertions of why Mr. Cutie would not have been released from his vows I must protest.  He would not have been released from his vows because the church needs her token heterosexual priests. Both of them. If the Episcopal diocese had offered to exchange a married cleric interested in converting than becoming a Catholic priest I am sure a deal would have been met.

I don’t think those of you who are strong advocates of the Catholic Church changing its discipline on priestly celibacy are taking into account the difficulty a Catholic priest would encounter in maintaining a marriage and fulfilling his pastoral obligations. I attend what I am reliably informed is an average-sized Catholic parish located in the University District of Seattle. We have two assigned priests (a Pastor and a Parochial Vicar). It is a Dominican parish (i.e., all of the assigned priests are members of the Dominican order). Residing in the Priory at my parish are also two priests assigned to the Cardinal Newman Center at UW, a Dominican priest who is also a Canon Lawyer, and a retired Dominican priest. The latter two priests do provide some assistance to the Pastor, primarily in celebrating some of the Masses, hearing Confessions and preaching some of the Sermons (For those not familiar with the order, Dominicans are designated O.P., for Order of Preachers—preaching is the order’s particular charism). The regular weekly liturgical schedule looks like this:

The Eucharistic Liturgy

Sunday
Masses:
7:30 AM
9:00 AM
10:30 AM
12:00 NOON
5:45 PM
Monday
Mass: 5:30 PM

Tuesday
Mass: 8:00 AM

Wednesday-Friday
Masses:
8:00 AM
5:30 PM

Saturday
Mass:
8:00 AM
Vigil Mass 5:00 PM
_______________________

Annointing of the Sick
(By appointment.)
Call the Parish Office at 206-547-3020
(Also between Masses on Sunday, without appointment
_______________________

The Sacrament of Penance
Thursday: After the 8:00 AM Mass
Saturday: 3:30 - 4:30 PM
or by appointment: 206-547-3020

The final fact to consider is that my averages-sized Catholic parish has a registered membership of something a bit over 1,000 households.

So the questions that you need to ponder (and answer) are two:

1. Just when do you think either of the two assigned priests at the parish would have time to work on his relationship with a human spouse?

2. How many days do you plan to introduce into each week of the newly-designed calendar you have yet to propose whose names (in English) will not end in the letter y (thereby not being listed on the above schedule)?

The latter question is the only way I can imagine that a priest could possibly have time and energy available to maintain a marriage relationship with a human spouse. But perhaps I have missed learning something in my 63 years of life.

Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer

Well, I was all ready to fire back with a couple of salient points, but Paula Loughlin and Marital Artist beat me to both.  Right on the nose and better’n I would have said it anyway.

Anglicanum

Keith, not to get into the whole Catholic thing, but our parish is average size for the suburban part of the Arlington Diocese, and we have about 4,000 families (with 3 other parishes of equal size within 5 or six miles) and only two assigned priests and one “in residence” pursuing a doctorate. 

There definitely is no time for a spouse.  We do have a ready supply of priests who can take a Mass here and there who are studying in Washington at one of the Study Houses or Universities, but these guys are too busy at times to remain in contact with friends, much less the daily effort required for marriage.

I do have a question in relation to all this, and I know that people here will have an opinion.  What can one say about the discernment process and the idea that one is called by God to one’s vocation, if one can not successfully live out one’s vocation? 

Why would God call a man to be a Catholic priest and call him to be married?  Why would God call a gay man to be an Episcopal priest who can’t remain chaste?  What’s going on here?  Is the call not discerned correctly?

Why would God call a man to be a Catholic priest and call him to be married? Why would God call a gay man to be an Episcopal priest who can’t
remain chaste? What’s going on here? Is the call not discerned correctly?

Thank you Paul B…you have finally asked the 64 million dollar question that I myself have asked time and again with no valid answer as of to date!

I ave always thought that the discernment process is flawed and or ignored. It has become a popularity contest as to four or five people really like this person so they think that they should be a priest or a deacon and tell them so….the person is so flattered and gives some thought to it then before you know it their church is sponsoring them onto the process. At least that has been what I have witnessed in my won diocese.

Like Paul B, my wife and I also attend a parish in the Arlington Diocese (Holy Spirit) that has about 3-4,000 FAMILIES and five Masses on weekends plus two Masses each weekday, served by three priests.  Both of our former Episcopal (now Anglican) parishes had 5-6 priests (and large admin staffs) for roughly half the number of parishioners.  The Roman Catholic priests I know are as interested in women as any man but knowningly and voluntarily give up their right to live a married life in order to serve God more fully.  As for Bishop Frade’s claim that this isn’t Biblical, wasn’t it St. Paul who said something about it was better to be single because you could serve God completely without having to be concerned about your family?

Frade’s (supposed) letter is a hoax—right?
Dumb Sheep.

It seemed to work for at least one Sunday at the Church of the Resurrection: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523544,00.html

The cozy church was overflowing with supporters, with most in the congregation having to stand along the aisles or lean against the walls. Many in the crowd said they were not members of the church but decided to attend the service to support Cutie.

Another story here (with many pics): http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/breaking-news/story/1074580.html

[45] Martial Artist

Your argument falls under the category of ‘Removing the vow of celibacy would be (way, way, waaaay) to expensive.’  You are correct that the current structure could not be maintained.  Unmarried men are frankly cheap, and flexible.  You could not keep the priesthood organized around the assumption of unmarried priests, and then simply allow priests to get married.  A man who has a family must have time for his family.  And he must be paid at a rate capable of supporting a family. 

Yet the structure could be changed to allow celibacy to be dropped.  The obvious answer to the problem you describe is to decrease the ratio of priests to laity, and to increase their compensation.  But someone would have to pay for it.  And that’s where the ‘expensive’ part comes in.  It’s amounts to a huge drop in productivity, and it’s just a whole lot simpler to maintain the status quo.  But doing so is a choice, and not a requirement.

carl

This ain’t the venue for ole Rafe to debate the myriad historical evils and perversions of Rome. Jean Calvin has done that for us. In this case, he simply reminds us: (1Tim 3:2) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach…

In the Institutes, Calvin says some very strongly-worded things against mandatory priestly celibacy that I won’t quote out of respect for the Roman Catholics who have been posting here. If thick-skinned, see Book IV, Chapter XII, Section XXIII. But it’s not for the faint of heart. If you’re Roman Catholic and go read Calvin, well, you were warned. It’ll take about 30 years of spiritual direction to get you back on the Appian Way.

Some persons are called by God to celibacy and/or chastity. Some persons are called by God to Holy Orders. There can be some overlap between the two calls. There’s no basis in Holy Scripture or Holy Patristic Tradition for mandatory celibacy for those in Holy Orders. In the context of church history, it’s a New Thing. And, history has shown that it can be an evil thing.

Already Gone - we are just down the road at St Mary of Sorrows.

By the way, I love your pastor, Terry Specht.  He is a holy man and I always enjoy going to confession with him.  Has he ever told you of his lunches with Mother Theresa? 

To make this an on-topic post, I will venture a guess that Cutie will not be ordained in a year when he realizes what he’s in for.  And, oh, yeah, the Catholic priest who witnessed my wedding was secretly married at the time.

Paul B- I really can’t get a sense of Cutie.  Is he a basically faithful guy who just got caught up in “being in love” ala Fr Mary Francis from EWTN’s Life On the Rock or does he have real theological (vice discipline) issues with the Roman Catholic church?  I guess time will tell.
BTW- We really like Fr. Specht as well.  He’s a great preacher, knows what’s its like to be a convert (Lutheran) and runs a tight ship (ex-Navy Master Chief with a Phd in Physics).  Funny that you like him as a confessor.  He’s my third choice (out of three).  Does have the shortest line though!

You could not keep the priesthood organized around the assumption of unmarried priests, and then simply allow priests to get married.  A man who has a family must have time for his family.  And he must be paid at a rate capable of supporting a family.

[SHRUG] It works for the Orthodox, why wouldn’t it work for Rome?

The Pilgrim,
It also seems to work real well in the secular world…..look at Doctors who are on call O.B. Gyn.‘s for example….they seem to have a full schedule of patients, babies being delivered, patients in the hospitals to see as well everyday, getting called at all hours of the night and morning for deliveries. Truck drivers…on the road making deliveries away from home and family but heck they seem to manage okay. And a host of many other professions that are just as demanding with married people working it out because that is what relationship is ...work, compromise, adjusting, love, caring, etc….

So, are there any updates from SE Florida?  Were the buildings packed with the curious this morning?  Were there enough brochures to go around?

[47] Paul B and [48] TLDillon,

Of course the discerment is broken. I was on a lay committee (IIRC it was called a PIP committee but I can’t remember what that was an acronym for) in the latter 1980s at an Episcopal parish in Clinton, MD. The committee’s responsibility was to work with a candidate for discernment of a call to the priesthood in TEC. The process was fundamentally broken then. It looked and read like something designed by a team of management consultants and psychologists, in other words (and please pardon the language), it was dreck.

If it hadn’t been broken by then, TEC wouldn’t have the proportion of heretical members of its HoB that it has today—whatever you want to call them—liberals, progressives, reappraisers—whose primary reason for withholding consent to the Bishop-elect in N.MI. is that man’s Prayer Book revisions.

But I suspect that it was beginning to be faulty long before my experience in Clinton, MD.

Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer

[52] carl,

You are correct that

doing so is a choice, and not a requirement.

And the Catholic Church is very clear about that. It is a discipline and not a doctrinal issue, which is why I clearly labeled it a discipline in my comment.

Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer

[60] Martial Artist

And the Catholic Church is very clear about that. It is a discipline and not a doctrinal issue, which is why I clearly labeled it a discipline in my comment.

Equivocation, Martial Artist.  You changed the choice to which I referred.  I was talking about a choice made by the RCC to restructure the priesthood - not the choice made by individuals for either celibacy or laity.  The RCC could alleviate the problems you listed by choosing to pony up the money to restructure the priesthood.  Don’t you agree?

carl

Carl…

This discussion isn’t about money, it is about discipline and honoring a vow made before God.  No doubt the RCC could easily afford to restructure but the greatest cost wouldn’t be cash, it would be discipline, one of the many characteristics which sets it apart from TEO and other “mainline” churches.

I did not see a large crowd of former Roman Catholics at church Sunday in Bessemer City, NC.  Was my experience different from others?

One of the saddest things I’ve read in a long time.

One sometimes wonders if there is any decency left .......

Imagine the feelings of abandonment by those parishioners at Fr Cutie’s old church.

The whole episode reveals the Episcopal Church’s lack of theology. Bishop Frade’s actions are those of convenience and opportunism. As for the Rev. Cutie, does he have any understanding of what being an Episcopalian is other than he can get laid without official condemnation?

This discussion isn’t about money, it is about discipline and honoring a vow made before God.

Should all vows made before God be honored?

See Judges 11.

At Judges 11:30-31, Jephthah made a vow before God. When he later realized his mistake, he could have asked God directly to be released from the vow, or gone to one of the priests. But, no. He said, “I opened my mouth to the LORD and I am not able to return.”

I am not sure that celibacy is too much to ask.  Men get a bad rap because society tells us that they can’t control themselves.  I will admit that living chastely as a man awash in testosterone is hard whether one is married or single, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done.  It can be mastered.

I see no need to change the present discipline.  Catholic priests need to be supported better by their Bishops and their congregations, after a thorough grounding at seminary.

—-
Already Gone - I enjoy confession with Fr Specht because he is no nonsense and doesn’t put up with BS.  He expects you to progress in your faith and not delude yourself into believing you are holier that you are if you are just going through the motions.  Sit face to face across from him in confession a few times and you will be a better person for it.  Forgiven, of course, but also better.  Some find that uncomfortable - to be challenged.  But he is a holy man, and he can pull it off.

Joshua 9
3 However, when the people of Gibeon heard what Joshua had done to Jericho and Ai, 4 they resorted to a ruse: They went as a delegation whose donkeys were loaded with worn-out sacks and old wineskins, cracked and mended. 5 The men put worn and patched sandals on their feet and wore old clothes. All the bread of their food supply was dry and moldy. 6 Then they went to Joshua in the camp at Gilgal and said to him and the men of Israel, “We have come from a distant country; make a treaty with us.”

Sorry, messed up the formatting. 
The last sentence is my own.
And to be honest, I’m not sure where I come down on the oath/vow issue; but I had recently been at a meeting where this was brought up and thought it had some pertinence to the subject at hand.

I do know that the priest behaved in an unsavory way and I am so glad I do not have a teenage boy in that congregation.

Thanks for those wonderful comments about Rome, Ralph. I’m glad Paula and Keith are around to clear up some misconceptions, of which there are many about the Catholic church. And by the way, I don’t think Benedict has been saying “welcome back into Christianity” to those Anglicans coming to Rome. You might want to check what Vatican 2 said about Protestant bodies: it says they’re Christian too. Oh, and one more thing: there are any number of Catholic bishops who would rather have Episcopal priests say little or nothing about their swimming the Tiber. I know a former TEC priest who told me this personally, so please don’t think all Catholic bishops are shouting it from the rooftops every time a priest comes to Rome. It’s not true.

It’s always touching when people completely write off Paul’s saying “it is better not to marry” and Jesus’s saying “let he who can accept this teaching do so” as having no applicability.

[61] carl,

My apologies. I did not read your comment carefully enough, and therefore incorrectly concluded that you might have been unaware of that intentional distinction. However, I beleive, with Cato at [62], that it is, at least as much, if not more, about the priest being “wed to the Church,” rather than principally about cost.

I base this as much on my own personal experience of a successful marriage of almost 29 years, as I do on what I perceive from my experience of the Church, particularly as I was raised LCMS, spent ages 25 through 62 as an Episcopalian, and was raised by parents, especially my father, who had a palpable animus against the Latin Church. I discovered prior to my unsuccessful first marriage, that I was personally incapable of managing more than one serious full-time relationship over any particular time span. One such full-time relationship is ample challenge for anyone attempting to live faithfully in relationship.

Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer

Well…We did NOT have an Influx of folks at Trinity, so I guess no one mistook me for another Fr. Cutie…We did have a couple of very large people come, maybe that was what was meant by “massive influx”...

It’s always touching when people completely write off Timothy’s saying “the husband of one wife” as having no applicability. Then we’ve got Paul’s 1 Cor 9:5, Do we not have the right to the company of a believing wife, like the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas? Then, there’s Luke 4:38, the healing of Simon’s mother-in-law.

I see all of these as having applicability. However, I do not see a case made for mandatory vow of celibacy anywhere in Holy Scripture and early Holy Tradition. Show me otherwise, and I’ll reconsider.

I’ve just left two comments at T19 on this thread
http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/23011/

I won’t repeat them in full here, but it certainly is very interesting that the parish where Fr. Cutié was sent was one that was the recent subject of a diocesan-wide letter as being in need of an emergency rescue plan.  The parish was down to an ASA of 53.  +Frade specifically noted that he wanted to “pack the church” at a special service on May 31.  Well he did that, certainly.

Details here:
http://www.diosef.org/pdfs/news-events/grapevine/ChurchoftheResurrection_OfficerDown.pdf

http://blog.diosef.org/?p=45

Talk about spin:  “The scandal…..was unfortunate”........“I pray that we can take advantage (it)”  The real danger for those flocking to TEC is being trampled by those leaving it.

At Judges 11:30-31, Jephthah made a vow before God.

Gosh, that vow is such a great analog to a priestly vow of celibacy!  They’re so much alike in substance!

Since I had a bit of free time today (I’m in-between two big projects at work), I spent a bit of time reviewing the parish charts of every parish in the diocese of SE Florida.

It is very sad, and very revealing.  I knew of course the diocese has been declining, but I hadn’t a real sense of crisis, based on the attitude of the leadership, and also the fact that it is a fairly wealthy area with a high proportion of older folks and retirees, who I figured would be pretty loyal to their parishes.  But wow.

By my quick (and perhaps not all that exact) count, 33 of the 80 parishes and missions listed (41%) are severely stressed with ASA’s below 100 and either clearly declining or with very erratic swings in ASA, giving, etc.  (Of course some of these may have endowments and trusts that are supporting them thus giving some “stability” even if the church membership looks to be at an unsustainable level, but without further research, I can’t tell.)

It would be interesting to know how the situation in Dio. SE Florida compares with other dioceses.  Would be an interesting research project for us all, diocese by diocese.  I mean SE Florida is generally rich (with a few notable exceptions - places like Pahokee and Belle Glade), quite densely populated… quite liberal.  It would seem that the diocese should be holding its own.

Bp. Frade’s “rescue” team is going to have their hands full.

Celibacy is not a doctrine.  It’s a discipline.  And while Paul spoke of having a right to a believing wife, remember that he did not actually have one.  Maybe what you mention annihilates Paul’s words on celbacy and Our Lord’s words in the evangelical counsels, but maybe not.

#78 writes in regard to Jephthah, “Gosh, that vow is such a great analog to a priestly vow of celibacy!  They’re so much alike in substance!”

There are parallels.

One the one hand, it would seem that Jephthah sacrificed his own daughter as a burnt offering, or got someone else to do it. Another tradition that looks at the chapter as a whole suggests that Jephthah actually gave his daughter over to be a perpetual virgin, dedicated to God’s service. No grandchildren for Jephthah.

In either case, he obviously should have gotten released from a vow that he should have never made in the first place. That vow makes as much sense to me as a mandatory vow of celibacy for those in Holy Orders.

Signing off before I break my vow not to diss the Romans today, lest I incur the benevolent wrath of Sarah whom I adore from afar, Rafe the Anglican

Wasn’t Peter the first Pope as the RC’s say? And wasn’t Peter married? Seems to me if he was both then he actually set the precedence for the Church and the Church has veered from it.

Getting back to Frade:

I have had several phone calls from newspapers and many emails from people all over asking about how they can join the Episcopal Church.

How much do you want to bet that a lot of the e-mails were from conservative Christians or athiestic hedonists that had zero interest in the Episcopal Church but were in fact being ironic, sarcastic or satirical, making fun of the Episcopal Church’s lack of boundaries.

#83 Good point.  “Any attention is good attention.” 

They didn’t learn a thing from the VGR fiasco.  “If we do more of the same, and do it louder, we’ll get a completely different outcome!”

I am confused about the argument, here.

I recognize that many of our more reformed and evangelical Anglicans on this board are not going to agree on priestly celibacy.

I also recognize that my fellow members of the Tiber Swim Team (I got confirmed this Easter!) aren’t going to concede that celibacy isn’t appropriate.

(Of course, all sides seem to be ignoring the fact that Rome never tells Western priests that priestly celibacy is required to be a priest in the Catholic Church: remember the Eastern Catholics, ladies and gentlemen, who are in communion with the Pope.  Perhaps if Father Cutie felt called to serve God in the Catholic Church as a priest and to the vocation of marriage, he misunderstood God’s call in joining the Roman Rite instead of the Marionite, etc.)

The thing I’m confused about is this: all of us orthodox Christians understand that if we make a promise to God, we’re supposed to keep that promise.  Scripture continually counsels us to be careful about the vows, oaths, and promises we make, and certainly, there is great deliberation on the part of men who are studying to be priests of the Catholic Church in the Roman Rite before they make a solemn vow in the name of the Trinity.

Even if this man had serious scruples about Catholic teaching, was it not sinful for him to cavort physically with a woman on a beach, in violation of his ordination vows?

Perhaps I’m missing a subtle distinction that everyone has understood.

[85] Diezba,

I don’t think you are missing any distinction at all. By way of full disclosure, I will likely be received next Easter Vigil, our Lord and the Tribunal willing. The problem was his acting over a relatively long period of time so as to repeatedly violate his vows, rather than seeking release from them. It is, first and foremost, an issue of personal Christian integrity on the part of a vowed cleric.

Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer

You guys are clueless, Frade’s assessment is correct for good or ill!

TEC is now for Hispanics “la Iglesia del padre Alberto”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gWChQs2DEfnJ1ux-A74AeBuI0idwD98IPD5O0

There has been a flurry of curiosity, comments and questions, a publicists dream! Its a sad difficult, delicate matter , but it has put TEC on the map by association!

It may not mean people will like what they see when they look at TEC, nor that any will decide to join, but one thing is certain, many are looking and asking…an unexpected bonus… there is no wrong in being aware of that!!!  VGR…who?

Blessings

Seraph

Seraph “but one thing is certain, many are looking and asking…an unexpected bonus…”  Hardly unexpected, it is the hoped for result of the TEC exploiting a (as you described) “a sad difficult, delicate matter”.

This really does look like a dose of reality for ECUSA.  Most people realize the expected tsunami of same-sex couples hasn’t arrived to pu the butts in the pews.  Anyone who understands biology (maybe Katherine Schori has been advising someone on topics she *dies* understand) knows humans derive from sexual reproduction.  Promiscuous sexual activity among same-sex doesn’t get you anywhere, but this priest & concubine are on the right track for actual congregation growth.  No need for that much influx from outside, just grow from within.  Have to soft pedal the idea of abortion as a sacrament, though.