Abortionist Tiller Gunned Down at Church

May his murderer be found, arrested, tried, convicted and punished.

Yes, Greg, if we’re truly pro-life, then we must be consistent and condemn this brutal murder, and especially since happened in a church, of all places.

Unfortunately, this atrocity only plays into the hands of the pro-choice forces, many of whom will probably seize this wanton act of violence and use it for years to come as a club against the pro-life cause. as if all of us pro-lifers were extremists like the killer.  In the PR battle for the soul of this country, this is a real setback.

But there’s another angle to this sotry that deserves attention and shouldn’t be lost from sight.  How could it be that this infamous baby-killer could be a member in good standing of that Lutheran church in Wichita for so many years?  What in the world were they thinking?

The fact that Tiller wasn’t subject to severe church disciplline, including excommunication, for his egregious, persistent sin and his inexcusable crimes against the helpless unborn shows how utterly confused so much of the American church is, and especially in the oldline (ex-mainline) denominations, which often seem unable or unwilling to exercise any appropriate church discipline at all, in any circumstances. 

For if ever there was someone who needed to be disciplined, and disciplined firmly and even harshly (with the object of restoration, not merely punishment), it would be George Tiller, M.D.

David Handy+

Couldn’t've happened to a nicer guy.

I’ve never believed that two wrongs make a right. 

“Some described Dr. Tiller as one of the only doctors in the nation who performed third-trimester abortions when the life or health of a mother was at stake, and said that his death would make it even harder for women in such circumstances to end their pregnancies”.

But this statement is medical garbage. If the life or health of the mother is at stake in the third trimester, there is the viable option of delivering the viable baby and putting him/her up for adoption.

I suppose I would be upset if someone gunned down Dr. Mengele…or at least I think I should be

sort of…but then again…

How could it be that this infamous baby-killer could be a member in good standing of that Lutheran church in Wichita for so many years?  What in the world were they thinking?

It’s an ELCA congregation.  Do I need to say more?

People, this man was shot in a church.

The murder itself is bad enough.  But think of the poor parishioners who witnessed it, not to mention any children who might have been there.  They will probably be traumatized for the rest of their lives.  I hope the psychopath who did this gets a life sentence.

I’m reminded of that line from the movie “The Last of the Mohicans”—Magua’s heart is twisted. He would make himself into what twisted him.
I think that is why Jesus admonished us to pray for our enemies.  Unforgiveness has such a destructive effect on our own souls.

Trying to feel sorry for the guy and the parishioners…its just that I keep seeing these murdered babies…

Gentlemen, you are out of bounds here.
No matter what, a murder is never justified, or good, or tolerable, or anything other than an abomination.

Matt, however you feel about this issue the fact remains you are not going around shooting people in crowded places.  This was not the act of a rational person.

I can’t imagine anything more terrifying than having a gun go off in my church, during the service, and turning to see a dead body all covered in blood.  I get the shakes just thinking about it.

This was a cruel and thoughtless act, and I suspect the perpetrator will turn out to have some mental issues.

yeah, not justified…true

How soon before Tiller ends up on TEC’s Lesser Feasts and Fasts?

That said, gunning a person down, committing murder in a church no less, is always wrong no matter the target.  That is not how we do things in America.

But seriously, when does he show up on the Lesser Feasts and Fasts for committing the blessing of abortion (especially late-term blessings!)

DoW

Incidents like this demonstrate better than almost anything can the difference between what we are and what we think we are.  There probably wasn’t anyone with any sensitivity or empathy for the least of these who didn’t inwardly celebrate on hearing this news.

Myself included.

But over 200 years ago, Mr. Edwards

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html

reminded us why that mindset is a really bad idea.  Because God doesn’t owe us another breath and anyone reading this may very well be the next ones instantly snatched from this world to the next.

Yup CJ, good point…at the same time…

I get that, Matt.  I see the same little bodies that you do.  Like I said, I’m no different than you or anyone else.

Amen, Jill.

I pray that he was able to repent in the hour of his death.  And I can see no good coming to the prolife movement from this.  I even doubt it will do much to stop late term abortions as most likely another abortionist will take his place.  It will probably be used as an excuse to curtail pro life free speech and advocacy.

It’s like trying to gin up sympathy for bundy or gacy or dahmer…yeah I hope they repented prior to their death but um well

17 A man tormented by the guilt of murder
    will be a fugitive till death;
    let no one support him.

18 He whose walk is blameless is kept safe,
    but he whose ways are perverse will suddenly fall.
Proverbs 28:17-18

Of course, the murder was wrong. But we can’t but acknowledge our horror of the awful things the doctor did. Here we have an unrepentant sinner whose mortal soul is danger. The church that never called him out on this is the absolute abomination.

hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Interesting that the last anti-abortion murders and assaults happened during the last Democratic administration.  I hope that anti-abortion violence isn’t going to pick up again because of the change in power.

Hopefully the guy who shot Tiller will be found to have acted on his own—and not associated with any real pro-life organization.  That being said, Tiller will be considered a martyr by the pro-abortion crowd.  I can’t see much good coming out of this.  Someone else will take Tiller’s place . . .

Fr. Matt, I would hope for a more circumspect or even compassionate reaction from someone in a clerical collar. 

I am most certainly not amongst the group that declares abortion a blessing.  Far from it—it is a terrible, awful choice to make, but on some rare occasions, it is the least awful one available.  A church-going man, from a church-going family, was killed to day in front of his family, friends and fellow parishioners.  However you may condemn his profession, it is currently legal, while gunning down people is not.

Please pray about what impact your knee-jerk from-the-gut reaction may have on others.

A murderer was murdered Elanor. That is as circumspect as I will get about this. I do not feel sorry for him. I pray that he repented beforehand.

Matt, I can find what he did totally repugnant and an affront to God and man, yet still pray he was able to repent. 

But honestly my main concern is how this will be used as an excuse to villify the prolife movement and to pass legislation restricting the free speech of those in the movement and its supporters.  It will also be used to paint Tiller as a martyr and what he did will get swept under the rug. 

I don’t think there is enough blood to cover the blood of all those murdered babies.  And isn’t part of Christianity the understanding that the shedding of our blood, or the blood of lambs, or doves can not atone for sin?  That it will never be sufficient?  Christ did carry the sins of Tiller to the cross.  And the fact Tiller gloried in his sins makes the pain of Christ that much more horrible to contemplate.  How evil men are when they mock the Savior’s sacrifice so boldly and unrepentently.  ANd though I can not argue he did not deserve hell, I am forced to remember that without Christ hell is our default destination.  So I am also able to pray for his repentence.  Both for his sake and because every repentent sinner is a testament to the Glory of God.

yep Paula, I agree, hope he repented and this will be used against us. But don’t feel sorry for him. All this at the same time.

Just as polls suggest that the pro-life position is gaining traction—and a majority—some idiot does this inexcusable act.  The pro-abortion folks couldn’t have asked for anything better, as now they have a martyr, and another example of hypocrisy to shove in the faces of those of us who are pro-life.  We should roundly and unequivocally condemn this murder, with the same vehemence that we condemn the murders that this man committed.  I’m sure there is a reflex among some that even though this was not defensible, perhaps good will come from this in the lives of innocents who will be saved.  Perhaps this is what the murderer was thinking as well.  But in fact this will embolden the pro-abortion crowd, and very possibly have the opposite effect.

“An eye for an eye” crossed my mind when I first read this story.

Good point, Robroy #21: “The church that never called him out on this is the absolute abomination.”

His church and all other churches that are silent on abortion are complicit in these murders of innocent lives.

I was one of those ‘pro-choice’ people once.  Before I was born again, I was associated with people who did abortions and even accompanied one young woman to have an abortion.  The remembrance of this still brings me pain. 

By God’s great mercy, we came to Christ, repented, and were forgiven, but we and our families still suffered adverse effects and consequences that have brought a lot of heartache for everyone. 

Repentance does not mean getting off without paying a price.  Sometimes, though it is good, it feels like crucifixion to fully own and admit our guilt and sin.  To let Him break our hearts thoroughly.  To hide and deny even a part of the sin only prolongs our suffering.  Cheap grace is a kind of robbery.

As one wonderfully articulate commentor at MCJ wrote, ‘grace hurts’  God’s mercy, grace and love breaks our hearts.  Or as St. Augustine wrote, ‘Thou pierced my heart with Thy word and I loved thee.’

Thank you, Paula.  That was beautifully put. 
We are all lost, absent relying on Christ’s atonement.  Horrified though I am at Tiller’s crimes (and not sorry he cannot continue to commit them), I find I can’t pray “Oh, Lord, thank you that I am not like that terrible abortionist.”  Tiller very well may have rejected Christ’s sacrifice for actions he refused to recognize as sins, and that probably caused Jesus to shed a few tears.  As my goal is to be more like Jesus, I’ll err on the side of mercy and regret for a lost soul in the same way that I regret the loss of each unborn victim. 
After all, doesn’t God love each one of us as if there were only one of us?  I think that may include George Tiller.

I have no problem with Matt+ sharing his gut reactions and thoughts with us here. He’s processing just like the rest of us.  We’re probably all troubled by what took place in Wichita this morning and trying to make some sense of it.  But if you think about what Mr. Tiller did for a living . . . that should trouble you even more.

For those of us currently (or at one time) and personally involved in pro-life ministry, Tiller’s was a familiar name.  Without God’s help we could easily hate him rather than pray for him.  The best approach was to pray for his salvation and hope for a “Bernard Nathansen” experience.  But that’s not what happened.

I would think it almost impossible to attend church where an unrepentant late-term abortionist is a member-in-good standing, permitted to serve as an usher. Just because what he did for a living is legal, doesn’t make it morally right and pleasing to God.  I am trying hard to not make the comparison here to slavery . . .

I realize that we’d have anarchy if each of us were to go around killing people who we thought deserved to be killed, but isn’t there a big difference between the taking of innocent human life (repeatedly) and the taking of a life guilty of numerous crimes against God and humanity.  (And that is the way many of us see infanticide.)

I don’t know which shocked me more, the abortionist being killed, or the fact that he was a church going person.

How can one listen to the gospel every weekend and kill babies during the week?

There is no need to make a comparison to slavery in this case. The proper analogy is to a serial murderer of babies. I doubt very seriously that many would be feeling much sympathy if such a murderer were confronted and killed. I do pray for the man’s repentance and salvation and yet in a just society his murders would have meant his execution through legal and legitimate means long ago.

David #2, this person actually seems to have been a leader in his church, as he was ushering today.  ELCA is no different from ECUSA; LCMS would have disciplined him long ago, with the goal of a changed life and restoration.  Matt and all, as long as folk have breath, there is hope of conversion and a changed life.  Look at Ms. Roe of Roe v Wade fame.  We are called to share the Gospel and make disciples, not murder sinners.  Each and every one of us on our own rightly deserves death.  Those who would kill and proclaim that they are doing so in the name of Christ are bearers of a false gospel.  What Tiller did through the course of his career was heinous, but today’s killing was no less so.

physician without health,

don’t dispute that we all are guilty before God. And yet, God instituted the death penalty for those who murder (Gen 9). It is not at all unjust to execute for murder while at the same time praying for the man’s repentance

Lest anyone be in doubt of the utter evil occurring in Tiller’s abortion clinic, see this <a >posting</a>.

The Church he attended, his pastor, all pastors who are silent, our lawgivers, judges, the President of the United States and his coterie of pro-abortion people are equally complicit in Tiller’s and other abortionists crimes.  Tiller was assisted by all of these.  He could not have done that ‘work’ if it were not acceptable and legal.

The official position of the ELCA is pro-life at about the level of TEC in the 1990s. They have some explaining to do to their membership. 

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Abortion.aspx

The infamous BTK killer, Dennis Rader, was a senior elder in the church.  I remember talking to a pastor friend of the denomination at the time all the stories were coming out, asking whether the church shouldn’t have been more spiritually-discerning; I know they couldn’t KNOW of his crimes, but shouldn’t they at least have been aware that he was somewhat off?  Certainly not a candidate to be the lay leader of the church. 

I don’t mean to blame but rather to remind us all that church responsibilities are not to be taken lightly nor given out to any warm body willing to take the job off our hands.  And, yes, it would be nice if Dr. Tiller’s pastor had disciplined him so he didn’t think what he was doing was okay with God.

Fr. Matt, this was murder, not the death penalty.  We live in a nation of laws, at least for now.

What’s the line from the Lord of the Rings movie?  There are many who die who deserve to live, and many who live who deserve to die .... something like that?  There are many things in our society that are legal that aren’t moral, and vice versa, but we live in a society under the rule of law, and taking the law into ones own hands in this case clearly constitutes murder.

Elanor. Like I said. A murderer was murdered.

Circumspect, eh? The Law of Talion being enacted on Pentecost in a church isn’t very subtle. I’m gobsmacked. Like others, I see the macerated bodies of murdered babies, their blood crying up to heaven.

It’s said that Daehmer confessed, repented, and was baptized before he was murdered in prison. As for this morning’s murder victim, well, we can pray that God will temper justice with mercy. He had plenty of opportunities to repent, so I see the story of the rich man, Dives, wanting to be in the bosom of Abraham.

No, I do not propose the gunman for sainthood. Evil often destroys its own.

In a just society he would have been executed. In ours, he was murdered. It was a bad thing. But I do not feel bad for him.

Boy what a sordid twist for Pentecost Sunday. Theologically speaking, this is a twisted, convoluted issue. For most of us here, Abortion is murder. Christianity condemns Murder. It is especially henious when one murders the fragile, innocent, young and/or vulnerable. Abortion, especially late term (also called partial birth) is an particularly offensive assault on civilized society.
Having had a few “untimely” pregnancies, I am grateful for a moral compass that supported the full term delivery, acceptance and joy of motherhood.
The news reported that this was particularly “henious” because it was carried out in his Church. Not in a condemning manner, I would remind us that ECLA has a concordant with TEC to exchange Clergy as necessary. They have compatible policy and beliefs.
Like the new Province, LCMS would have disciplined him.

So, where do we go from here. We continue to pray. Even for Tiller and his alleged murderer. We examine our own bloodlust as it is easy to have conflicting knee jerk impressions. I am against Capital Punishment all the time…but then when a serial child molester/murderer is sentenced, I have to ask the Holy Spirit to have Christlike response and pray for the perpetrator’s true repentance and conversion.

This act will cost the Pro-life movement. We will again be termed terrorists or right wing whackos.

So we pray unceasingly.

“... and they’ll know we are Christians by our love….” ????

How about a little compassion for the family and fellow parishioners at least, folks????

this “served ‘im right” response is not serving the Kingdom at all.

I now find myself disagreeing with my statement that ELCA is pro-life. An ELCA minister told me recently that they are firmly pro-life, and are not troubled like TEC, yet he recognized some elements of his church as pro-choice (Lutheran Women’s Caucus). ELCA is not a member of RCRC, but I recall there is a Lutheran on their board.

In re-reading the Social Teaching Statement above, it appears this killing should open up the discussion. I am sure their membership will take note that he was one of theirs.

I believe this was not the act of an insane person or even a zealot. I believe he was a desperate man who felt powerless. Lord have mercy on him, the doctor, the congregation the state the nation and on Christianity. His act has damaged us all.

“An eye for an eye” crossed my mind when I first read this story.

What flashed through my mind was “He who lives by the sword…”

#46, “How about a little compassion for the family and fellow parishioners at least, folks????”

Yes, you are right. May God help this pastor to find the right words to comfort this man’s family in their loss, today, and in the ensuing years. May God help this pastor in working with parishioners who witnessed this event.

I simply cannot imagine having to write and preach this funeral sermon. May God whisper it in his ear.

It’s saddening to read this thread.
“Judge not lest ye be judged.”
We need to be praying for the families of the victim, the perpetrator, and for the parishoner witnesses.

This is something to fight in the courts, and in the hearts and minds of the voters of this nation.  Baldly zealous bloodlust in the face of a vigilante act will not serve the pro-life cause.

And Fr. Matt, I would hope that ultimately you would feel bad for the doctor—he’s come face to face with his Maker, and he’s got a lot to be called to account for.

yeah, this was an illegal killing and sinful. It violated Romans 13. That is about all I can muster as far as sympathy. I suppose I feel for his murderer as I might have felt for Bonhoeffer had he succeeded.

Many of the thoughts and sentiments expressed here flashed through my mind today.  I’m not sure speaking them equates to being a truth speaker.  For my unforgiveness and hardness of heart, good Lord have mercy.
A few facts in the case:  Reformation Lutheran is not the parish that “BTK” attended.  Tiller was serving as an usher this morning at his ELCA parish and was shot in the forehead by a wackjob for whom the ex-wife has tearfully apologized and expressed her dismay the state was unable to keep him in prison.  He has been apprehended and formal charges will probably come tomorrow.  Operation Rescue and Kansans for Life have decried the murder and expressed their commitment to nonviolence.While it does not appear to me that his congregation’s support of him, somehow embracing or divorced from his abortion mill, managed to save any/many children from his hands, there is a possibility that Tiller’s soul might be saved and perhaps even because of his faith community, however flawed that might be.  I leave that to God - as should we all.  Judgment is a two-edged sword.

yep, as I said, I hope the murderer repented before he was murdered.

I’m not quite where he is but I understand Matt’s+ feelings, clergy or not. 

Read a transcript at some point of what third trimester or partial birth abortion is actually like.

Pilgrim #49,
Doesn’t the observation about those who live by the sword come from our Lord admonishing Peter when he tried to protect Him from arrest? If individual violence is disallowed in protecting the Son of Man, how much more is it disallowed in protecting mere mortals?
(Shifting away from Pilgrim’s post to a more general observation)
Any witness we have that “abortion is murder” is undermined when we fail to treat *murder* as murder.
How horrible that the shooter took it onto himself to cut short Tiller’s time to repent.

Fr. Matt:
  So, then, if you are saying that we are allowed to perform “on-our-own” executions to “take care of the ‘problem’”, how is that different from a mother-to-be “taking care of her ‘problem’”?

Opie56. You obviously have not read what I have written. I did not say that “we are allowed to perform our own executions”.

I regret that it might have seemed I was saying BTK went to the same church.  That was not my intent, but it WAS the same denomination.  I was trying to make a point about spiritual discernment on the part of the church (in this case, this specific denomination), or lack thereof.

Matt,

It is a very sad fact that even murderers who are tried may not be convicted even in the face of compelling evidence.  Verdicts are overturned for various reasons.  Plea bargains are made and time is served for a lesser crime.  What then?  Is it then justified to take the law into our own hands and murder someone we know is guilty but whom the law has not punished fully or not at all?  And honestly part of me says yes, especially in regards to those who kill and/or abuse children. 

But I also know this every law could be made right.  Every killer, thief, molester, abuser, abortionist could be held legally accountable for his or her actions and made to pay compensation to the victims and serve jail time to the fullest penalty.  And still this would be an unjust world.  Because this is will never be a totally just world as long as we are sinners. 

Which means the message of Christ is all the more important, because only by hearing it can we hope man will at least make a place , however small, for justice in this world.  Yet I believe perfect justice will only come about when Christ returns to judge us.  So as easy it is to get caught up in a desire for vengence, I remember it is God who will make all things right and in His time.  Meanwhile I pray.

Fr. Matt: Maybe I mis-read message #36, then…

yes, you did.

Hi Paula, it is never justified to take law into our own hands. See #53. That being said, while this was illegal and sinful…the result is not “unjust”

“Anti-abortion leaders voiced concern Sunday that the Obama administration and other Democrats may try to capitalize on the murder of Dr. George Tiller to defuse the abortion issue in upcoming Supreme Court confirmation hearings.

Many anti-abortion groups condemned the killing of Tiller, a prominent abortion provider who was shot dead at his church in Wichita, Kan. But they expressed concern that abortion-rights activists would use the occasion to brand the entire anti-abortion movement as extremist.”

This is good time for cooler heads to prevail.  The pro-life position may be in the majority, but not among our “elites”, and that whackjob with the pistol may have just handed TPTB a golden opportunity to silence an important discussion right when the Supreme Court line-up is in flux.

Murder is wrong. Killing on holy ground in a place that has historically been recognized as a sanctuary is doubly wrong, and that it was done in a congregation of people (including children) not involved with this doctor’s actions is unconscionable.  That this doctor will no longer be able to kill innocents is a relief, but the evil means never justify the ends.

I also noticed on the article timelines that we had not had this kind of violence since the Clinton administration, but that it again is on the rise. If this country really is starting to adopt more pro-life attitudes, I can only think that this might be a setback for the pro-life cause. Everytime this kind of violence breaks out, it seems to underscore an association of pro-life with “crazed, violent fanatics.” While I’m glad he will no longer be hurting babies, I can’t think of this as a good thing.

Not sure that a “church” that affirms murder is “holy ground” but I agree that this was illegal and therefore sinful.

That being said, neither Tiller nor his killer should be welcomed into Christian worshipping community unrepentent of fearful evil they have committed.  God does not bless sin, He prunes it.  The Church is not competent to baptize bunnies or to bless the marriage of chickens.  So also it is not competent to declare that the final things spoken of in the eschatology of Parousia, the joy and rest from our labors promised in the Kingdom of Heaven are all accomplished and that this world with all its tragically mortal, wounded reality, is heaven.  As truth speakers, Christians should not embrace a theology that is as autistic as the regime in North Korea.  We must be open to see the world through God’s eyes.  Questions of the death penalty are moot here ... murder is not an expression of God’s will (nor of the rule of law) for our God is not a murderer.  The mystery of God’s sovereignty and providence and freedom achieves His purpose through all things ... but His ways are not our ways.  We are bound to obedience to God’s will and that has been expressed with no ambiguity in the Commandments:  “Thou shalt not murder.”  We shouldn’t count on the adequacy of our obedience but we have some idea we are doing God’s will if we keep His commandments. Our hands are not clean of this murder if we ourselves have imagined we desired this outcome or even hoped for it, in our fear and woundedness.  Before we say to ourselves that we can afford either indifference to Tiller or to say to ourselves, “we won”, we should remember that Tiller is made in God’s image and it is for George Tiller that our Lord becomes incarnate, is murdered (whether or not the laws of the land were followed in so doing), and rises again.  Let us not be crucifiers but witnesses at His feet.

“That being said, neither Tiller nor his killer should be welcomed into Christian worshipping community unrepentent of fearful evil they have committed.”

agreed

You will not take the law in to your own hands…..Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot to their
victims…..

Jersey Girl:

Read a transcript at some point of what third trimester or partial birth abortion is actually like.

No need to read.  Go to youtube and watch.

In fact, I defy anyone here who is concerned about this man’s soul to watch a video of a third trimester abortion.  They are available on Youtube.  This is not “an abortion.” It is a violent, twisted, horrific act of savagery, and it will sicken you to the core of your being. Anyone who can watch what goes on in that operating room without turning away to weep is not human.

Ameryx, those are the circumstances in which Jesus uttered the words, but their truth resounds far beyond that dark confrontation in the garden; that those who fill their lives with violence will die violent deaths. And Dr. Tiller filled his days with violence.

A brutal cruel and hardened murderer has been murdered. Not much more needs to be said.

#64. Matt Kennedy,

while this was illegal and sinful…the result is not “unjust”

Matt, a synonym for unjust is “wrong”. This was wrong. You have said that he was murdered. Thou shall not murder. this was wrong.

Yes, the act of the murder was wrong.

the result is not unjust

I can see and hear the interrogator looking at Bonhoeffer saying, “Aber, mein Pastor, vas it not illegal vhot you did.”
I am with you Matt.

I suppose I would be upset if someone gunned down Dr. Mengele…or at least I think I should be

Imagine that?  The life of a unborn child is sacred, but the life of someone outside the womb is not.

Sounds just like the ‘conservatives’ in N. Georgia. “Murder is wrong…except for them…and them…and them…let’s GET EM’ and let GOD SORT EM OUT LATER.”

Again, are you sure that you are Anglican, Father Matt?  It must be nice living in that ‘Ivory Tower’ where everything is simple (emphasis on simple), and there is no grey area.

For a man who posted, saying that he paid for two abortions (murder) you sure are glib about the murder of this person.

‘Irony’..it’s not just ‘redneck slang’ for Ironing anymore.

Matt, move back home to your southern roots.You’d be Governor here with no problems at all, and, obviously, you could be Governor in Texas too.

RoF

#71, in following the Great Commission, we’re supposed to be concerned about the souls of all of God’s children, not just the folks that agree with us.

I certainly don’t think that Dr. Tiller was doing “the Lord’s work”, although there is a TEO seminary prez who probably thinks he was.  I just can’t delight in his death.

Today’s events were awful.  Greg asked us to be circumspect, but that quickly went out the window—it started looking like Virtue Online around here, and lots of ammo has been made available to “our worthy opponents” if they chose to mine it.  I am saddened.

Yeah ROF, heh, murdering the weak is “life in the real world”.

Oh great—you’re not supposed to feed the trolls, and this thread has laid out a buffet.

That’s right Elanor…try the ‘Crow a la Kennedy’ it’s very delicious…

Forgot about links not working. Will try again:

Lest anyone be in doubt of the utter evil occurring in Tiller’s abortion clinic, see this posting, http://tinyurl.com/npzxvj .

Food for thought:

http://www.prolife.com/Sobran.htm

“Those who make peaceful change impossible,” said John F. Kennedy, “make violent change inevitable.”

It would seem, then, that violence against abortionists should be blamed not on the pro-life movement, which seeks peaceful change, but on their opponents, who have made peaceful change impossible. In 1973 the U.S. Supreme Court declared all state laws regulating abortion—even the most liberal laws—unconstitutional. It should not amaze us that some people have responded to this outrage with violence.

RoF,

You’re equating the life of an innocent unborn child to a man who kills those children, and that is intellectually dishonest in the extreme. Even you should be able to tell the difference between the two.

yeah, I am very happy this serial murderer cannot murder any more. And gosh elanor, I feel “really bad” about ROF.

Murder is murder, and it’s illegal….but only if you’re an abortionist.  Nonetheless, whoever murdered the doctor should get life in prison without parole.

The murder of Dr. George Tiller and the sick side of the pro-life movement
Posted by Susan J. Demas | Capitol Chronicle | Analysis May 31, 2009 20:55PM

George TillerWhen I heard about Dr. George Tiller being gunned down at a Wichita church today, I can’t say I was terribly surprised. After all, enough paranoid people are stockpiling guns because Obama’s in the White House. So why wouldn’t some “pro-lifer” go off the deep end as another pro-choice justice is poised to join the Supreme Court and take out a doctor who performs abortions?

Both sides have mourned his death. But some people just can’t dial back the crazy, like Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry who issued this statement:

“George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller’s killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name; murder.”

Tiller was shot by pro-lifer Shelley Shannon in 1993. She had called Michael Griffin, who murdered Dr. David Gunn, “the awesomest, greatest hero of our time.” And at her trial, Shannon said there was nothing immoral about trying to kill Tiller.

Can’t imagine where she might have gotten an idea like that.

Doesn’t sound like this is going to help our cause at all.

No, the real world, Matt, is that you said you paid for two ‘murders,’ so that’s pre-meditation, and, if we want to use your ‘eye for an eye’ justice scenario, then you aided and promoted the murder of ‘weak ones.’ How could you?  I’m not sure you should even be a priest, if I judged you as you judge others.

But, wait…that’s right…you get a ‘pass from Jesus’ because you asked for forgiveness, but the man that was murdered deserved what he got, right?

Man, that “Crow a la Kennedy” is really, really good. Does anyone have a Warsteiner (keeping with our Bavarian theme) beer to go with this?

RoF

Sorry, here’s the link:

http://blog.mlive.com/capitolchronicles/2009/05/the_murder_of_dr_george_tiller.html

Doesn’t sound like this is going to help our cause at all.

And aren’t good numbers in the latest tracking poll what’s important?

Yup, I agree. I murdered too. No pass. Thank God he stopped me.

Comment deleted

At least he’d have the rest of his miserable life to think about what he did.  I’m not defending that doctor, either, because what BOTH of them did is wrong in the eyes of God.  The doctor paid for what he did….with his life, and the other murderer will pay for what HE did for the rest of HIS life.  The innocent unborn child?  That child HAS no life….thanks to its mother and the doctor.  NONE of the three adults are blameless for this child’s death.

No, Jeffersonian.  I see this as a “hearts and minds” campaign.  Nothing to do with polls.

I meant to say “Neither of the two adults….the doctor and the mother….are blamless….”

My prayer is that Tiller’s pastor and fellow parishoners, along with his former governor, Sebelius, are extremely uncomfortable and wrestling with their consciences and some hefty angels right now, with the light of God’s countenance upon them and that God will be gracious to them, allowing them to repent and come to reconciliation and peace with God.  This is from the Numbers 6:24-26 blessing and it is the greatest prayer we could pray for them.

No, Jeffersonian.  I see this as a “hearts and minds” campaign.  Nothing to do with polls.

I understand.  But given the exalted status bestowed upon abortion by the nine black-robed legislators of the USSC, hearts, minds and $4.50 will get you a Venti decaf mocha cappuccino with no foam and half a squirt of vanilla flavoring at Starbucks.  It simply doesn’t matter.

Okay,

Most of you are against birth control, you do not want sex education for your children in high school (or earlier), even though most of them are ‘doing it’ whether you like it or not or want to see it or not.  I’m curious as to why Matt paid for two abortions.

Most third-term abortions happen because the mother is in danger, not because they just ‘feel like it.’  I believe abortion is murder, and I believe that all women who are going for this LEGAL procedure need to know that. 

It’s the taking of a life, but until unwanted pregnancies are no more, until teenagers stop having sex, until each and every one of you are willing to sponsor an unwed mother financially, until her child (or multiple children) is out of college (knowing that the majority of those getting abortions are poor), until you are willing to go after the fathers—federal LAW—and make them accountable—financially and emotionally—to the babies, then I will continue to be Pro Choice, whether I think it’s awful or not.

When all of you, and your special interest groups, put your money where your big mouths are, and start really helping the women that you protest, as they walk into an abortion clinic, I will gladly join you on the sidelines.

RoF

While I do not condone anyone presunming to act as judge, jury, and executioner, news of Dr. Tiller’s death affects me the same way as did Hitler’s or any other mass murderer.

Dr. Tiller’s murderer struck at our entire system of law, but I am not saddened by the death of evil incarnate.

Floridian,
Since when has that ever been the reaction to such an act?  Such people will become even more intransigent in their position, elevating the murdered doctor to “martyr” status.  Though he will no longer be aborting babies, I’m not even convinced a single child will be saved—someone else will step in and do the job.
No, I don’t think this does anything good for the cause.

“I’m curious as to why Matt paid for two abortions.”
I was 17 yrs old, not a Christian yet, and my friend came to me for help.  Instead I helped her kill her baby.

Oh, I don’t know.  I was strongly pro-choice until the early 1990’s when I saw a picture on the front page of USA Today of Operation Rescue people praying outside an abortion clinic.  There’s no other way to describe it—my heart melted.  I saw a woman in the group who looked like a woman in the new church I was going to with her eyes closed and hand upraised, and I have never felt the same.  My heart changed, and then my mind.  So I think it can happen that way for others, too.

It’s the taking of a life, but until unwanted pregnancies are no more, until teenagers stop having sex, until each and every one of you are willing to sponsor an unwed mother financially, until her child (or multiple children) is out of college (knowing that the majority of those getting abortions are poor), until you are willing to go after the fathers—federal LAW—and make them accountable—financially and emotionally—to the babies, then I will continue to be Pro Choice, whether I think it’s awful or not.

When all of you, and your special interest groups, put your money where your big mouths are, and start really helping the women that you protest, as they walk into an abortion clinic, I will gladly join you on the sidelines.

On page 1 of my Yellow Pages, there’s “Abortion Alternatives.”  I wonder how many women who walk into abortion mills ever calls one.

But your challenge makes no sense, RoF.  Would some hoodlum be justified in killing the homeless because we haven’t bucked up to plop them into a nice 3-bedroom home in the suburbs?

#101 is in reply to #96.

My heart changed, and then my mind.  So I think it can happen that way for others, too.

Mine changed, believe it or not, when I heard a newscaster repeating verbiage from a NOW press release about selective female baby abortion in India.

But I repeat…what does that change?

Reading this thread with fascination.

I grieved when Hussein was executed.  I’m opposed to capital punishment, and I’m sorry that Tiller is dead.

I also completely agree with the above comment: “[A third-trimester abortion] is a violent, twisted, horrific act of savagery, and it will sicken you to the core of your being.”  And I am glad that Tiller can no longer commit such acts, though I’m deeply saddened that 1) abortion is not illegal, 2) he was not convicted and sent to prison for life and 3) did not have the opportunity to repent.

I also hope that Dr. Tiller’s murderer goes to prison for life.  He has done something very wicked, in a country that is under the rule of law.  Thus he had no right—none at all—to do what he did.  If Paul could live under Roman law—a country that was far more perverse and evil than the US—then so can Christians in the US.

On a related note, I’ve read the comments and note that some of the later ones have become personally insulting to Matt who actually holds a strikingly nuanced and sophisticated position.  Be warned.  Personal insults are in violation of our comment policies and will be deleted.  Repeated such insults will mean that the commenters privileges will be revoked.

Jeffersonian,
Please tell me you are not being deliberately obtuse.  If people’s minds change, they no longer desire abortions, therefore the babies live.

Please tell me you are not being deliberately obtuse.  If people’s minds change, they no longer desire abortions, therefore the babies live.

My apologies, I thought you were talking about the possibility of outlawing the procedure via legislation.  Of course changing hearts and minds may reduce the demand individually.

Hi Sarah,

Thank you for that last paragraph.

A question…and a sincere one for all on this thread. Hypothetically, say that this “doctor” was systematically murdering unwanted children under the age of one year old in his basement.

A man (let’s say a meter reader or some such person) discovers this basement and instead of calling the police, in a fit of rage, kills the “doctor”.

1. Would you want the meter reader to be put into prison for the rest of his life?

2. Do you think a judge or jury would sentence the meter reader to life in prison?

Jeffersonian,

Please forgive the curtness of my reply.  It was uncalled - for.

Matt,

That seems a different situation.  This was a premeditated act, hardly a “fit of rage”.  So, no and no.

Matt,

FWIW, I’m finding it hard to offer a defense for Tiller’s actions being any different from the one in your example in [108].

Ring of Fire, You are right I do not want my children (maybe I should say did not want, since my children are now grown.) taught that whoredom and abusing their God given sexuality is right.  I do not want them making a mockery of God’s revealation to us about what it means to be male and female.  I do not want them to believe slaughtering a human being gets a pass because that child has not traveled through the magic vagina. 

And by the way ask yourself just why are pro aborts so eager to help poor women get abortions?  Why are so many clinics in minority neighborhoods?  Why do they persuade women that their lives will be ruined unless they murder their children.  Why is it underneath all the rhetoric about rights and empowerment and choice is the fear that if we don’t keep abortion legal too many of the wrong type of people will have too many babies?  Sanger’s legacy is alive and well. 

Also it is a lie that most late term abortions are done only to save the mother’s life.  Mother’s life is a very flexible term thanks to several SCOTUS decisions.  And if you read any testimony when the ban on Partial Birth Abortions was being discussed you would know most were not performed because the women was in danger of imminent death.

I would get banned if I wrote what I really wanted to write, suffice it to say it is not charitable and no doubt a suitable penance will be found for it.

LOL…I frequent some of the more, um, robust political blogs.  Your “curtness” didn’t raise the needle on my meter, Fidela.  No apology necessary.

And yes, the fact that this was clearly premeditated makes a big difference.

RE: “1. Would you want the meter reader to be put into prison for the rest of his life?”

No.  That would be—under the rule of law in the USA of which we are citizens—an unpremeditated act and probably adjudicated under temporary insanity.  Very similar, in fact, to a woman coming in on her husband molesting her child.  While it would be wrong of that woman to kill her husband stone cold dead, our system of law does—and rightly so—take into account sudden extreme emotions that produce violence.

RE: “2. Do you think a judge or jury would sentence the meter reader to life in prison?”

No.

Again, though—this man has violated society’s law, and not at all under any category in our law other than cold-blooded pre-meditated murder.

I hope that he goes to prison for life.  Our law does not allow citizens to kill people who are doing wrong—but entirely legal—actions

I agree Greg. There is no real difference between a serial murderer killing one year olds in his basement and an abortion doctor killing unborn babies in an abortion clinic.

Alright Fidela, let’s say, that the meter reader went home to get a pistol first.

lI was 17 yrs old, not a Christian yet, and my friend came to me for help.  Instead I helped her kill her baby.

Well, I am glad that it was a legal procedure, and that you were not jailed for helping her.  So, you paid for it twice?  I may be mistaken, but I thought you said you paid for two abortions in your lifetime.

But, I think helping her was much better than taking a gun and blowing away the physician, right?

To Greg:

Nothing ‘intellectually dishonest.’ It is not up to you, nor me, nor Matt, nor anyone else to take ‘vengence’ into our own hands, no matter if we feel that the person—in this case the doctor—is a murderer.

Bonhoeffer knew that he was actively turning against God, when he decided to plot to kill Hitler.  I think it’s you, Greg, who is being intellectually dishonest, when you try to compare Hitler to this doctor.

Legally, he is within the law to perform the abortion, and he did not force it onto the woman.  The doctor is not systematically murdering babies, because he ‘hates’ babies, or wants to eradicate ‘babies’ from the universe. That’s your rigid and narrow interpretation. Whether you ‘feel’ it’s wrong, because of your relationship with Christ, it is a legal procedure.

Maybe this physician did not ‘feel’ he was sinning, and, as I tell women who contemplate abortion, it’s a decision between the woman and God, and God will be the ultimate arbiter of whether it’s a sin or not.  The difference, Greg, is that I don’t feel it’s my place to start playing ‘God’ myself and tell you, or anyone else, that God is gonna getcha’ for this sin, or that sin, or what not.

This man was murdered in front of church goers—he actually went to church—his own family, friends.  The man who killed him did nothing to further the cause of ‘all life is sacred.’  What bothers me is that many here reduce a person to a label.  You have no idea who that physician really was, only that he performed abortions.  He now becomes “the abortionist.”

I wish abortion was gone and it was not needed, but it’s not going anywhere.  Even if if it is outlawed, again, many of your girlfriends, wives and daughters will die, while trying to get one.

I think your tune will change, if and when that happens.

RoF

I profoundly regret this murder. It is a terrible sin and I pray for the killer, the murdered man and their families.

#97 These are genuine questions - because I don’t understand your argument. Do you reason in the same way abut other murders (to use your phrase)? Do you see this as the same kind of argument as you were making: unless one is prepared to sponsor the rehabilitation of gang members then one cannot debate how the law should respond to gang related murders? It seems obviously a non sequitur. Do you see it as applying in every ethical area or perhaps just murder in general (why?) or just abortion (why?). Do you see this as a reasonable argument - unless one is prepared to sponsor immigrants, one cannot enter the debate about the law applies to immigrants?

If you wanted to explain it might help me understand.

Sarah, see the second half of 114…say the Meter Reader went home to get his gun and returned…premeditation.

I hope that he goes to prison for life.  Our law does not allow citizens to kill people who are doing wrong—but entirely legal—actions

It is a conundrum, is it not?  Our law also, in theory, didn’t permit the promulgation of the USSC decision that legalized abortion from coast to coast.  So what do we do with that?

1. Would you want the meter reader to be put into prison for the rest of his life?

No.  I would want the man to be put to death, by the State. 

2. Do you think a judge or jury would sentence the meter reader to life in prison?

No.  A lawyer eager to make a name for himself would snatch up the case.  The guy would be out in a few years.  Later, the meter reader would be working out a deal with a publishing agency and / or one of the networks.  But, that’s the kind of society we live in.

yeah ROF, same girl two babies. I do wish someone would have stopped me even if it meant my death. Instead I participated in the murder of two innocent babies. I trust, thanks to the shed blood of Christ, I will meet them in heaven and will be able to ask their forgiveness.

RE “But, I think helping her was much better than taking a gun and blowing away the physician, right?”

ROF, Matt did not help her.  He harmed her and assisted in killing a baby. 

Tragedy all around.  The woman was *worse off* after the abortion than before.

RE: “say the Meter Reader went home to get his gun and returned…premeditation.”

Matt—yes.  I would want the meter reader to be put into prison for the rest of his life. He arrogantly took the law into his own hands and took a human life with malice aforethought.  I do not want him anywhere near other citizens who are unwilling to take the law into their hands and kill people whom they catch doing wrong and breaking the law.

Of course, in the case of Tiller he was not even breaking the law.  Doing wrong, yes.  Acts of grotesque savagery yes.  But we live in a country that has decided that killing babies inside the womb is not going to be illegal.

I’m curious.

If I made it my mission in life to lie in wait outside of public high schools and kill teenage drug dealers who dealt in the hard drugs—methodically killing a clean dozen of them before I was caught—would you wish me to be put in prison for the rest of my life?

I think it’s you, Greg, who is being intellectually dishonest, when you try to compare Hitler to this doctor.

Actually, I never did that. Read the thread.

Also, you can stop with the “I wish abortion were illegal, but as long as it is, I’ll defend a woman’s right to have one.” If you really think abortion is murder, then all you’re saying is, “Hey, the government doesn’t agree with me… what can I say? My hands are tied.”

Here’s a good question for you to ponder tonight: What if the government said it was legal to abort your child solely on the basis of a genetic test having determined that it was going to be born gay? Would your hands be tied then?

RE: “No.  I would want the man to be put to death, by the State.”

Heh.

Moot, you pro-death-penalty man, you!  ; > )

No. I would not.

I would not want the meter reader put to death either or imprisoned. The law in this case is unjust. That does not mean that I think there is license to break it. But when it is broken, in such cases (ie bonhoeffer etc…) I do not think the penalty for someone murdering a serial killer ought to be as great as if, say, someone were murdered planting flowers in a garden.

#108. Matt Kennedy,
The difference is that killing infants is illegal and immoral. Killing unborn children is only immoral and unfortunately not illegal. I believe the meter reader would not be sentenced to life in prison because it would be as you described it, a crime of passion and not premeditated. The cold dispassionate premeditated act of killing unborn children is legal and even in some circles unfortunately considered “blessed”.
I think all of us who have posted are thankful that this man will not abort anymore children. What most including me are sad about is that he was murdered and ultimately this act will harm the cause of the pro-life movement. Pro lifers are already on a “watch list” for terrorists. As I noted before, As Christians we have all been damaged by his murder.

Earlier this week, a pizza delivery man had the presence of mind to keep his cool when confronted with a heinous crime (caught sight of a bound kidnap/rape victim when getting paid for the pizza), and get in touch with the authorities (despite the lack of cell phone coverage at the remote mountain location).  He stayed near the scene to get assurance that the woman was rescued and the perp caught.  His actions were heroic, and a model for a citizen facing a violent criminal.  He also most likely saved the woman’s life, as the perp had threatened to kill her when he was done.

With that model in mind when considering the hypothetical meter reader—if it was strictly in the heat of the moment, Sarah’s initial response is spot on.  But when you add the premeditation of going home to get a gun, knowing that concerned citizens have the ability to bring in the authorities, it does a complete 180.

If the meter reader went home, got a gun, and executed the murderer (not in the act of killing a child), he is committing premeditated murder.  It seems very few murderers go to prison for life, but he should be punished in some sort of proportional way.

And by the way ask yourself just why are pro aborts so eager to help poor women get abortions?  Why are so many clinics in minority neighborhoods?  Why do they persuade women that their lives will be ruined unless they murder their children.  Why is it underneath all the rhetoric about rights and empowerment and choice is the fear that if we don’t keep abortion legal too many of the wrong type of people will have too many babies?  Sanger’s legacy is alive and well.

How about asking yourself why you keep demonizing the woman?  Well, see, if you would allow and promote ‘sex education’ and ‘free condoms and birth control’ for many of these ‘poor women’ there would not be the need for abortion clinics right?

Maybe, too, many of these ‘poor women’ already have 2,3,4, children, because ‘baby daddy’ convinced her that using a condom didn’t ‘feel good,’ and they have very low self esteem (imagine that?).  Maybe the woman is on welfare, perpetually, and there is no way she can care for the children that she has, as each MAN has walked away from his responsibilities.

Want to see abortion stop?  Make it a Federal law that any man who has gotten more than one woman pregnant within a five year period, must ‘get snipped.’

You are the only person saying the ‘wrong people’ are having the babies. Are you willing to help out a Welfare mother, with three children and one on the way, who lives in a one-bedroom apartment with three other family members, who has no job skills, no GED, and the ‘father’ is no where to be found?

Paula, are you willing to pay for daycare for the mother, so she can go back to school?

Are you willing to financially help this mother get the real and good counseling she needs?

RoF

yeah, not too convinced. I think the meter reader would have done a just act and a good thing…and yet sinned by breaking the law in the process. He ought to have called the police and he broke the law when he did not.

He should get a minimum sentence.

But a serial murderer is murdered. He will not murder any more babies. It was a just result.

RoF, you are morally and ethically bankrupt.

#115 What about this? Why do you not love them enough to want to prevent them harming themselves. Classically the church has seen sin as spiritual self harm. So when the church encourages and instructs people not to sin we aren’t judging them in the sense you intend (that is, we are not declaring the truth of their relationship with God) - we are loving them and trying to assist them from harming themselves.

RoF, you are morally and ethically bankrupt.

Thanks, Jesus. I’ll keep that in mind.

RoF

ROF,

Why should Paula or anyone pay for the consequences of the phantom woman’s actions?  You really make no snese at all.

“Murder is wrong, no matter who the victim or what the context.”

No.  I disagree.  (But it’s dangerous to have a discussion without defining terms.  Is the death penalty murder?  Is killing in a war murder, be it a “just war” or otherwise?  Would murder be more or less justified based on whether it affects the public’s view on abortion?  Do the ends justify the means?)  There are very interesting philosophical issues to be debated, and I don’t think it does anyone favors to play hide the ball (especially if everyone’s going to talk about how “circumspect” they’re willing to be—which is essentially asking for people to be suspicious of what you say).

All that said, the aftermath of a controversial murder is not the time to have such a discussion.  More meditation and prayer and less posting is probably a good idea for all, me included.

Thanks, Jesus. I’ll keep that in mind.

Well, then maybe you can explain the moral precept behind the idea that one assumes complete financial and emotional responsibility for a person by insisting that (s)he not be murdered.  You’ve been asked about that at least twice on this thread so far, and ignored it.  Care to expound?

President Barack Obama said he was “shocked and outraged” by the murder. “However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence,” he said. (Associated Press).

Looks like Robama was wrong again.  The death of Dr Tilley has resolved the late term abortion issue for a large swatch of the U.S., at least for a while.

Whatever you think about the morality of the act.

KTF!...mrb

RE: “yeah, not too convinced.”

Matt—I’m not certain if you are saying that to me.  I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything, but merely respond to your questions which I thought were meant to ascertain consistency—we don’t share the same values regarding the murder of murderers, and I understand that and recognize that neither of us will be able to convince the other.  Perhaps you were speaking to someone else, though.

RE: “Well, see, if you would allow and promote ‘sex education’ and ‘free condoms and birth control’ for many of these ‘poor women’ there would not be the need for abortion clinics right?”

Well that’s obviously not true.  After all, the State provides masses of “sex education” and “free condoms and birth control” and abortion has only escalated to further obscenely murderous proportions.

RE: “Maybe, too, many of these ‘poor women’ already have 2,3,4, children, because ‘baby daddy’ convinced her that using a condom didn’t ‘feel good,’ and they have very low self esteem (imagine that?).”

Yeh—women aren’t, after all, really able to make moral decisions of integrity.  It’s other people’s fault for taking advantage of their deficiencies, no doubt.  Women are so weak—unable to assert independence or free will, being inferior and all.

RE: “Are you willing to help out a Welfare mother, with three children and one on the way, who lives in a one-bedroom apartment with three other family members, who has no job skills, no GED, and the ‘father’ is no where to be found?  Paula, are you willing to pay for daycare for the mother, so she can go back to school?  Are you willing to financially help this mother get the real and good counseling she needs?”

As long as it is personal charity and not through the State.  ; > )

But then . . . that’s always what liberals are really talking about when they speak of charitable giving—expanding the State.  A larger State to enforce the liberals’ values on others and take citizens’ money to do it, too.

Hi sarah, I was responding to Elanor

I would not want the meter reader put to death either or imprisoned.

That’s the rub, though.  The meter reader desires the death of an awful human being, and takes matters into his own hands.  And the public desires that he be set free, out of sympathy for him and disgust for the other evildoer.  And the other evildoer, well.. at the end of the day, he was just acting out of desire. 

But that’s not justice.  Justice can’t be served by doing what we desire; only by a willingness to do what we do not. 

Sarah - more pro-Noahic Covenant than anything.  ; )

Hi Moot, as I said, the Meter reader would have broken the law and ought to face some sort of penalty.

Evil calls to evil.  Satan murders his own, not sparing them because they are his.  The murder has been murdered. 

Society and its laws do not govern evil anymore than it can suppress the Gospel of Christ.
Our Lord holds the babies.  And He holds the final fate of evil.  He is risen and He lives.  And He is Good.

Matt+, your babies are in good hands.  Peace.

Isn’t the definition of murder - the unlawful killing of another. That’s what the word means. One might then then debate what acts are murderous. But in so doing one is not debating whether “murder” is wrong. In other words the debate is always about whether a particular act is lawful or unlawful killing.

I have yet to see a philosophical argument in favor of murder (though I did have an uncle who thought the entire British Royal Family should be thrown into “the mulcher”). I have seen barbarous attempts to argue as lawful, killings that heretofore were universally considered unlawful.

Well, then maybe you can explain the moral precept behind the idea that one assumes complete financial and emotional responsibility for a person by insisting that (s)he not be murdered.  You’ve been asked about that at least twice on this thread so far, and ignored it.  Care to expound?

You just called me morally bankrupt, and now you want me to explain my ‘moral precept?’

And I am the one that is illogical…

You indeed know exactly what I am saying.  Telling a poor person, with three children (this is an example taken from my own personal experience), who is pregnant, again, to keep her baby.

Pleading with her to do so; Telling her that it’s a sin to murder her baby, and then basically taking care of her until her baby is born, does not cut it. How does that help her make wise decisions concerning her partners, sex, so she does not get into the situation again?

How are you going to get this woman out of her situation, counsel her on having positive self esteem, help her gain her GED and be able to have a job above minimum wage to support the children she already has, because the ‘daddy’ hit the road and cannot be found for child support.

Many of the folks that think like you do simply think that by magically waving your ‘magic wand of abstinence’ that sex outside of marriage will simply stop…because you told the woman to stop it.

That’s a nice fantasy world.

But, gee, why would you want my opinion since I am morally bankrupt?

RoF

I am honestly at a loss here.  In order to try and get into the mindset best put forth by Fr. Kennedy, I am struggling to envision the murder of someone who makes his living committing legal acts that I find morally reprehensible.  The best my tired brain can come up with is a desperate man shooting the owner of a CheckNCash and I know this is a very poor example.  Yet, poor as it is, and despite my strong (across the board) pro-life stance, I think I would find a voice inside saying he got what he deserved for exploiting people.  I’m not sure what that says about me - or what the hard hearted comments here say about all of us.  Perhaps we should simply pray - for ourselves, for the unborn, for a country that supports this sad choice some woman make but won’s support adequate child care, prenatal care, and such.  I believe that we should do everything in our power to make abortion unnecessary so that it disappears - I don’t believe making it illegal again will accomplish that, I don’t believe gunning down abortionists will accomplish that.

“Isn’t the definition of murder - the unlawful killing of another.”

Well, no, it is not. Murder is not the “illegal” killing of another. It is the “unjust” killing of another. Auchwitz, afterall, was “lawful”

When in the blue blazes did I say the wrong people are having babies? When did I ever deny that fathers are not manning up to their responsibilities both financially and otherwise?  When did I demonize any woman who had an abortion? (that would mean I would have to demonize myself and many other women I care about.)  And yes I will continue to say that abortion is a form of genocide against minorities.  Look at the disproportianate number of minority women who have abortions. 

And birth control is not the big freaking secret you seem to think it is.  They offer birth control in most public health clinics and minors do not even have to have parental consent.  And in case you are living in a cave condoms are for sale right across from the early pregnancy kits at your local drugstore. 

And your idea of sex education seems to be go ahead and whore yourself (and let me be clear, whore applies to men and women) it is ok as long as you don’t get a disease or pregnant. 

You leave out any kind of morality in making the decision whether to engage in premarital sex.  Just throwing condoms is as wrong as just telling a teen “just say no to sex.”  both approaches assume people are not moral agents able to fully understand the consequences of all their actions.  And the unwelcome consequence of unmarried sex is not limited to pregnancy and STDs.  But those who believe we are slaves to our passions whether sexual or otherwise will never understand that. 

And I believe in every abortion there are two victims even if only one of them dies.

“I am struggling to envision the murder of someone who makes his living committing legal acts that I find morally reprehensible.”

Think Bonhoeffer…his target after all committed “legal acts”

Yes, and we seem to differ on what the state-imposed penalty should be, in this scenario.  I believe that the penalty should be the same for the meeter reader for taking life without government sanction, as it should be for the serial killer had the m.r. turned him in to the cops. 

The crime is the same, imho;  even though the frequency is not.

Rof;
If the only way to get “street cred” from you on this issue to to either be female (which I am not) or to have given freely to charity and/or adopted children (which I have done both, all I can afford), then you are certainly walling off the argument pretty narrowly.  Let’s just say this:

All human beings have free will.  If we facilitate folks making Bad Choices, then we are corrupting them.  If we leave the open bottle of Jack Daniel’s on the kitchen table of the known alcoholic’s house, then we are contributing to his demise, both physically and spiritually.

Likewise if we make abortion cheap and widely available, then we guarentee, no matter how difficult the decision might be (and trust me, it’s not always as difficult as it is portrayed) that more and more women will take advantage of it.  And thus we have erred on the side of corruption.

I would agree with you that there are a myriad of reasons why a woman might have an abortion, and that some of them have the smell of justification to them, but it is no more than that, just a smell.  The act itself cannot ever be justified in a Christian setting, even to protect the life of the mother.  And every real mother I know, would gladly die for their children. 

That nobility, in my opinion, is a part of womenhood that is most blessed by God, and should never be overlooked by us.

My two cents….KTF!...mrb

FWIW when the RC church in Scotland did financially support women who were considering abortions, pro abortion campaigners argued they were “bribing” women.

Again FWIW aren’t churches very widely involved in giving women alternatives to abortion, helping with housing, finances etc.

#108 (I think…)
We live in a fallen world. One response to that is to establish governments, so we can avoid a Hobbesian war of all against all. Vigilantes violate the social contract as mu h as any other set of criminals. I would jail the meter-reader, unless his action was taken in the course of interrupting a murder taking place, an exception which civil law also allows.

For those who worry that this will “hurt the cause”: there is only one cause, and that is the Great Commission. Every other cause is subordinate. To fret over whether a murder is “bad for the cause” is to have the priorities wrong. Murder is bad in and of itself, regardless of how it affects a “cause”. Which may be why God covered it in the 10 Commandments…

You want to hurt the cause? Express publicly the view that this killing is bad *because* it hurts the cause.

I know that we are not so cynical or so jaded as to assess this murder by how it affects the cause of defending life.

I know what you are saying, but it’s morally empty and all you’ve done is repeat your scenario as a defense.  What you’re setting up is, for all intents and purposes, a hostage situation with the moral onus on, not the hostage-taker, but those who seek safety for the hostage.  And that, my friend, is a revolting moral inversion.

As I pointed out before, page 1 of the Yellow Pages has “Abortion Alternatives” listed.  Does not the presence of these services, not to mention myriad adoption agencies that go begging for babies to adopt out, mean no one should get an abortion?

#152 was in response to #143, BTW.

Comment deleted—author warned against personally demeaning comments.

Let’s take a hypothetical case - say there was a financially viable alternative - then ROF would you counsel a woman that she ought not to have an abortion.

Of course I don’t think financial need can ethically justify killing another human being (though FWIW I do think, with Aquinas, under certain dire circumstances taking what others have not shared is not theft). But I am wanting to understand your views.

Matt+

Of course Bonhoeffer himself disagreed with you.

I’m certainly as pro-life as anyone on the thread, but I think that the near-rationalization of Tiller’s murder only diminishes the cause. The whole ethos behind the ethics of life is that human persons bear the image of God and therefore have an inalienable claim to dignity as such. Human beings do all kinds of things to suppress and deface their dignity, but however radical depravity may be, it cannot ultimately overturn the creative purpose of God. This is the proper reading of even Dordt’s doctrine of depravity.

When we act in ways that disregard human dignity, it diminishes the church’s witness and the cultural regard for dignity everywhere. It is a declaration that Caesar is Lord and Jesus is not—that this bearer of the divine image must be sacrificed so that I may master the situation. But there is a butterfly effect to sin and in our pretense at mastery, we become its slave and this inexorably gives rise to greater evil and death. This is the lesson of Eden and the first eleven chapters of Genesis: sin takes you farther than you wish to go, keeps you longer than you want to stay, and costs you more than you can possibly pay. It’s why we speak theologically of sin as the mysterium iniquitatis. Who can plumb its depths?

Violence is always a conceded ground to the powers of this age, even when provisionally justifiable as defensive etc. The only power greater than those powers is the cruciform power of Jesus self-gift that brings the present age to its conclusion and condemnations (the point of Jesus’ tetelestai). Resurrection and final vindication of the innocent is God’s job.

Murdering Tiler did not expiate the evil of his actions. Rather, his murder was a participation in and a metastasization of that evil. It was a faithless declaration that rivalry and the privation of resources can only be overcome by the other’s death. In the process Tiler is made a noble martyr and his actions are commended as self-sacrificing heroism. The ethos of the pro-life cause is exposed as hypocritical.

I don’t think RingOfFire’s comments here are particularly even-handed or helpfully put, but there is something in them that calls for our repentance and not our derision.

MJGP+

RE: “How are you going to get this woman out of her situation . . . “

Right—because the woman—being a woman and inferior—cannot help what she gets into.  It’s the responsibility of the massahs to help out those who are inferior and unable to help themselves . . . and the massahs need to get women “out of” their “situation,” taking no account of the woman’s free will, for after all, she’s just not able to really be responsible or a person that makes valid decisions.

Yeah, M. J. G. Pahls, if only God had read your comments before he made the mistake of establishing the Noahic covenant.

I know what you are saying, but it’s morally empty and all you’ve done is repeat your scenario as a defense.  What you’re setting up is, for all intents and purposes, a hostage situation with the moral onus on, not the hostage-taker, but those who seek safety for the hostage.  And that, my friend, is a revolting moral inversion.

Wow, now I am revolting and morally bankrupt…looks like I am in good company with some here.

RoF

Wow, now I am revolting and morally bankrupt…looks like I am in good company with some here.

Do you have some substantive disagreement with what I wrote, RoF, or are we just playing a game here?

Let’s take a hypothetical case - say there was a financially viable alternative - then ROF would you counsel a woman that she ought not to have an abortion.

Yes I have and I would. I work with a non-profit, here, who takes in girls who have gotten pregnant, and they have a home and physician’s care, birthing classes, they must get their GED, if they don’t have a high school diploma, and they have a year after the baby is born to finish school, find a job.

Hey M J G Pahls,

RE: “I think that the near-rationalization of Tiller’s murder only diminishes the cause.”

How has Matt near rationalized Tiller’s murder?  He has called it *both* “wrong” and illegal.

#158 Matt you’re being too elliptical for me to understand. You don’t think this man was lawfully killed do you.

Do you have some substantive disagreement with what I wrote, RoF, or are we just playing a game here?

You are the only one playing the game, since you keep calling me names, and you are truly not interested in my POV.

Here is the game: NO matter my response, you will return to ‘morally bankrupt,’ so there is no reason to continue to converse with you.

RoF

Yes I have and I would. I work with a non-profit, here, who takes in girls who have gotten pregnant, and they have a home and physician’s care, birthing classes, they must get their GED, if they don’t have a high school diploma, and they have a year after the baby is born to finish school, find a job.

Good for you, RoF, that’s a very honorable thing you’ve done.

But I’m puzzled in the end.  Since the very thing you say must exist for you to be pro-life does, indeed, exist, why do you continue to espouse the pro-abortion line?

No, not lawfully killed. Justly killed. It was an illegal killing and sinful because it involved breaking the law (Romans 13). However, the result, the death of a serial murderer, was just.

Matt+

Its almost as though I learned nothing from masters work in OT with Dr. VanGemeren and ten years as a Presbyterian minister, huh?

Or maybe we ought to treat the Noahic cycle in Genesis as a narrative discourse and reckon with the twofold message: 1) Even a world wide flood didn’t suffice to wipe out the legacy of Adam’s sin (Noah was drunk and sexually compromised immediately after leaving the ark, remember?) 2) The promise of the ot berit (rainbow) was the gurarantor of divine forbearance human evil and the gift of time for repentance. In short, the Noahic covenant pretty much makes my case.

MJGP+

But if it is a murder, it is gravely and terribly sinful and to be profoundly regretted, isn’t it? That’s what murder means - no consequences of any sort can temper that or our reaction to it, can they? I surely regret it occurred - and not because it will bring poor publicity but because a human being made in the image of God has been murdered and that is always a terrible act.

Here is the game: NO matter my response, you will return to ‘morally bankrupt,’ so there is no reason to continue to converse with you.

Please accept my apologies about the first instance…I did indeed do that.  The second, however, was not as I was referring to what you said, and not you per se.

Now, can you explain the difference between your position and a hostage situation?  Ditto my question in #165.

Right—because the woman—being a woman and inferior—cannot help what she gets into.  It’s the responsibility of the massahs to help out those who are inferior and unable to help themselves . . . and the massahs need to get women “out of” their “situation,” taking no account of the woman’s free will, for after all, she’s just not able to really be responsible or a person that makes valid decisions.

Do you own a plantation, Sarah?  Because that’s the only reason I can think of to revert to racial stereotyping of poor women, referring to ‘massahs’ and all.

That’s pretty beneath you, don’t you think, with you being so erudite and all?

It’s really morally bankrupt.

Back to the point of the thread:  This abortion doctor had been stalked by ‘anti-abortion’ advocates for years, his clinic bombed, etc. No matter what side you are on, that behaviour is nothing more than terrorism.

RoF

“Its almost as though I learned nothing from masters work in OT with Dr. VanGemeren and ten years as a Presbyterian minister, huh?”

Well, you certainly learned how to name drop. Nice creds though.

re: the Noahic covenant…in particular v.6 of Chapter 9

The rest is quite nice too though

Sarah,

I was attempting to characterize the what seemed to me at least as “praise-by-faint-damnation.” Matt+ certainly seems to think there is a parallel between Tiller and “the death of a serial murderer” that he declares “just,” or maybe I’ve misunderstood. If so, it seems that others have come away with similar misunderstanding.

Blessings,
MJGP+

Sarah,

Also, I think your stated view in the first part of #105 puts us very much in agreement on the issue.

M+

What I am contesting is whether this illegal and sinful act is to be any more regretted than say a hypothetical illegal and sinful killing of “Dr. Mengele” or some such personage. Is it a sin? In the sense that it was an illegal act…yes. Was it a sin, yes…it violated the laws of the state.

It is sort of a weird degree of circumstance.  The nomination and connections of former governor and now HHS secretary Sabellius with Tiller really exposed this fellow’s reprehensible practices into the national limelight.  One wonders what that notariety might done in this case.

But I’m puzzled in the end.  Since the very thing you say must exist for you to be pro-life does, indeed, exist, why do you continue to espouse the pro-abortion line?

The non-profit is not a conservative, Pro-Life, sponsored place. It’s a place where women get the help that they need without forcing a certain type of religion onto them.  The women are taught about safe sex, contraception and they learn to have genuine self esteem about their bodies and who they give them to.

No, I want to see individuals like you, Jeffey, take on a woman or girl who wants to abort and instead of throwing platitudes and thumping the Bible, open up your pocketbooks (since you hate government intervention) and pay for the woman and her baby, if the woman or girl is financially destitute.

[gratuitous personal insult deleted—commenter is warned for a third time]  that’s the point, period.

Game Over…I need to go to bed.

RoF

“Matt+ certainly seems to think there is a parallel between Tiller and “the death of a serial murderer” that he declares “just,” or maybe I’ve misunderstood.”

No. You’ve misunderstood. There is more than a parallel…Tiller is or was a serial murderer.

#166,
Surely the act was sinful because it violated a Commandment? It troubles me that you would declare the result of this murder to be “just”. (It troubled me when you said only that it was “not unjust”.) I submit that we, as fallen creatures with limited understanding, are incapable of distinguishing with any reliable accuracy the just from the unjust. 

To the extent that one finds any kind of satisfaction in the killing of Tiller, one is indulging one’s fallen nature. Such feelings are to be resisted, perhaps by telling them “Vade retro”.

Ameryx,

I suppose you will simply have to be troubled then. Yes, this represents the breaking of a law. The law, however, is not always just even though, with the exception of extreme cases we are commanded to obey it. In this case, the man violated the law and in doing so he sinned.

But the result of his sin was just. I would think the result of the “murder” of Mengele or Hitler would be, in the same way, as just as the death of Tiller.

Also, it is not a “fallen” impulse to feel satisfaction when justice is done.

The non-profit is not a conservative, Pro-Life, sponsored place. It’s a place where women get the help that they need without forcing a certain type of religion onto them.  The women are taught about safe sex, contraception and they learn to have genuine self esteem about their bodies and who they give them to.

No, I want to see individuals like you, Jeffey, take on a woman or girl who wants to abort and instead of throwing platitudes and thumping the Bible, open up your pocketbooks (since you hate government intervention) and pay for the woman and her baby, if the woman or girl is financially destitute.

Put your money where your big mouth is.  that’s the point, period.

I don’t really think so, RoF (and you have no idea where my money goes, BTW), I think you’re not really being truthful with us.  Here’s what you said above:

It’s the taking of a life, but until unwanted pregnancies are no more, until teenagers stop having sex, until each and every one of you are willing to sponsor an unwed mother financially, until her child (or multiple children) is out of college (knowing that the majority of those getting abortions are poor), until you are willing to go after the fathers—federal LAW—and make them accountable—financially and emotionally—to the babies, then I will continue to be Pro Choice, whether I think it’s awful or not.

I read that as saying you’re going to remain pro-abortion until pregnant women are given viable alternatives to killing their babies, alternatives that do not financially or emotionally burden them.  I think I’ve accurately characterized you, I think you will agree.

Now we learn that you yourself work at such a facility and therefore know that such alternatives are already in place, yet you remain pro-abortion.  Pardon me, but it does seem that your support for abortion is not based on what you’ve claimed.

OK I think I get it - you believe that the murdered man’s crimes merited death. So the moral failing is not that he was killed but that he was not killed by the lawful authorities.

I see murder (which I think you agree this is) as an act that is so gravely sinful because it illegitimately ends the life of one created in the image of God. Such that even were the act (the killing of the man) to be just under other circumstances, under these it is sinfully and terribly unjust.

hi Driver8, I think we are coming closer here. I think you articulate my position correctly in your first para.

I do not agree that the act was “terribly unjust”. I think it was illegal and for that reason, sinful. And, yes, any sin does damage to the sinner’s soul.

Matt+

As I said, you’ve got to read the Noahic cycle as a narrative discourse. The point is made from the narrative as a whole. On 9:6 (Lex Talionis) Westermann has it mostly right, but without the other shoe:

“A community is only justified in executing the death penalty in so far as it respects the unique right of God over life and death and in so far as it respects the inviolability of human life that follows therefrom. Every single violation of this limit, be it based on national, racial, or ideological grounds is here condemned.”

What Westermann might have further noted is that this is a near-impossible standard to realize and that God himself disclaimed this unique right to exercise immediate retribution for human sin (murder inclusive) three verses later.

RE: “Matt+ certainly seems to think there is a parallel between Tiller and “the death of a serial murderer” that he declares “just,” or maybe I’ve misunderstood.”

M Pahls . . . I’m confused again.

Do you think that Justice is done when the wicked die?

I am wicked.  Would it be just for me to die?

I think it would be.

I’m confused by your definition of “justice.” 

My belief has been that God has worked Justice into the warp and woof of the universe and its history.

RE: “That’s pretty beneath you, don’t you think . . . “

Nope.  It’s above me—I surpassed even my own standards of recognition and articulate demonstration of another person’s condescending and insulting ideas about poor women and their ability to make moral decisions even when pressured or influenced otherwise by painful situations and males.

And happily, I’m indifferent as to whether ROF thinks it either beneath or above me.

Have we learned nothing?

Anyone that followed the life and progression of Paul Hill, and now this offender, understands that this murder was wrong and a tragedy. Period. It has nothing to do with opposition to abortion.

I pray, really hard, that no one reading comments on this blog or elsewhere is led, or misled, into thinking that this shooting was justified.  I love the faithfulness and love shown by so many here. But sometimes folks, in their passion, miss the mark.

And, please, no one suggest that through this murder there will be fewer abortions. The political backlash from this murder will likely accomplish just the opposite.

M. J. G. Pahls,

Thank you for that quote from Westermann. He does the best that can be done to avoid the plain meaning of the text and, subsequently, to turn vv 11-17 against v6. God, of course, does not “revoke” the death penalty established in the Noahic covenant. In fact, he extends it in the Mosaic covenant.

One murderer kills another murderer.  May justice prevail.  In both cases the churches failed these individuals and the state did not obey God to deal with the murderer.  I believe the sovereign God permitted this to happen for what ever His design is.  When Israel refused to obey the Lord he sent the rod of the evil Assyrians to punish them then later punished the Assyrians.  God will not be mocked or thwarted in doing His will as expressed in his law. He is especially angry at those who harm widows, orphans, weak, and children.  Now most of us are also guilty of at least murder in our harts as in the Sermon on the Mount.  Some of us have been involved in abortion also.  Anyone who gives money to a pro-death church such as the RCRC program is guilty.  Anyone who votes for a pro-death candidate or party is guilty.  We are all guilty.  Let us pray for repentance and for God to stay his hand of jdgment.  He often uses very evil and cruel people and nations to bring judgment on unrepentant sin.  The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom….  Blessed be the name of the Lord.

#183 Ok - I think I understand and see we do disagree. For the moral failure is not simply breaking a law, any law (made by the lawful authorities) but breaking <>this</i> law (namely killing unlawfully). So I would distinguish this terrible moral failing from say going 5 miles over the speed limit on an interstate. (I don’t pick speeding to trivialize your argument, which I take as serious but in error, but to pick a breach of the law that I hope will work as a contrast to the moral gravity of unlawful killing).

Sarah,

Sorry for the confusion. I think that justice in this case is to be understood in terms of reference.

1) In reference to the divine bar, you are certainly correct to note, as does St. Paul, that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Ironically it is just this recognition of universal guilt and our implicated-ness in the mystery of evil that ought to restrain our claims to the moral clarity and rectitude necessary to start executing people in the name of Jesus.

2) In reference to the saeculum (before the bar of the civil magistrate), I think you’ve been among the participants making claims for the rule of law in our society and of how Tiler’s murderer should justly be condemned to imprisonment for the unjust action committed. Here I agree.

3) At the innermost contemplation of the question of justice, however, I am struck by the cross and resurrection as the supreme revelation of the justice of God (paraphrasing Rom. 1:16-17). That justice (dikaiosune) is revealed in the faithfulness of the divine Son, offering himself as God’s merciful provision and our substitute. Here God condemns the unjust order and the powers that establish it and then God vindicates the justice of the Son by resurrecting him from the dead. Not sure if you draw your resistance to the death penalty from this conception of things, but that’s where things emerge from for me.

I pray, really hard, that no one reading comments on this blog or elsewhere is led, or misled, into thinking that this shooting was justified.  I love the faithfulness and love shown by so many here. But sometimes folks, in their passion, miss the mark.

I think it’s a bifurcation of sentiments, GH: That what the shooter is was wrong, sinful and obviously illegal and that she should be punished accordingly.  The other sentiment is that, while every man’s death diminishes us to some degree, Tiller’s does so less than most.

I read that as saying you’re going to remain pro-abortion until pregnant women are given viable alternatives to killing their babies, alternatives that do not financially or emotionally burden them.  I think I’ve accurately characterized you, I think you will agree.

Then, you read it wrong.  No, I said I will remain ‘Pro-Choice’ not ‘Pro Abortion,’

<blockquote>Now we learn that you yourself work at such a facility and therefore know that such alternatives are already in place, yet you remain pro-abortion.  Pardon me, but it does seem that your support for abortion is not based on what you’ve claimed.</blockquote?

I didn’t say I work at such a facility. I said I work ‘with.’ I volunteer with the group, via my church.

Pardon me, but you are simply not reading my words:  Jeffey, I want individuals, like you—ones who agree with the mindset of protesting at abortion clinics, etc. to take your own money and sponsor, financially and emotionally, one of these women. Stop calling women and doctors ‘baby killers’ and take your own money and help a young girl or woman, who is not financially able to take care of her child, to keep ‘life sacred.’

Stop spending money on ad campaigns, hotel rooms, transportation, for all of your ‘Pro Life’ buddies to stand and scream at a woman as she tries to make that choice, and simply step up and help the women who need the help, no matter what ‘free will’ caused them to get pregnant.

You let me know when you wish to take that on, because I know some girls who could really use your guidance and influence. Better yet, help sponsor legislation that would force the father’s of these children into financial and emotional responsibility.

I haven’t heard you utter one word about that…it’s all the ‘evil woman’

Seriously, I have got to go to bed.

Thanks for the game!

Matt+

I think that there is more to this discussion than can be effectively chased out on the thread, but I think the dismissive hand-waving, especially of so-thoughtful a commentator as Westermann (and Gordon Wenham who cites this quotation approvingly as well), strikes me as premature. Name dropping aside, all I can say is that I once thought as you do and have subsequently had a change of mind and heart.

Peace to you and yours.
MJGP+

RE: “Ironically it is just this recognition of universal guilt and our implicated-ness in the mystery of evil that ought to restrain our claims to the moral clarity and rectitude necessary to start executing people in the name of Jesus.”

I do not agree. I do not believe that it is a lack of moral clarity at all that should keep us from “executing people in the name of Jesus.”

In fact it is our recognition of our own guilt and evil that allows us to continue to have moral clarity about guilt and evil in general.  Those who are unable to admit their own guilt and evil become “people of the lie” as Peck points out, and begin to gloss over evil and seek muddiness rather than clarity.

The knowledge that Christians have the grace of God to rest upon should give us more moral clarity, not less.

RE: “At the innermost contemplation of the question of justice . . . “

But there is such a thing as justice.  And Matt clearly believes that when sinners die in consequence to their sin that that is a form of justice.  It is not nice.  It is painful.  It is not something that fellow humans outside the rule of law get to inflict on others.  Thank God this does not happen to all sinners on earth - but much like a person who jumps off a bridge and falls to the earth, dead, in response to the law of gravity, it seems clear in scripture that “sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.”

That is the way of things.  It is the way that God made the world.

RE: “Not sure if you draw your resistance to the death penalty from this conception of things . . . “

I do not draw my rejection of the death penalty from Christ’s work on the cross.  Indeed I see the role of the State as very different from the role of the Church or of individuals, and I grant that it is at least Biblically arguable and supportable to support the death penalty enacted by the State.

I have various other reasons for not approving of the death penalty, but do not want to get the thread off-topic to discuss it.

And happily, I’m indifferent as to whether ROF thinks it either beneath or above me.

Which is why Massah Sarah felt she needed to respond to me, because she is indifferent. (rolling eyes) By the way, I’ve been insulted a couple of times on this thread, but I sure don’t see Sarah or her ‘posse’ admonishing the poster.

Imagine that?

Isn’t there a repeat of the “Harlem Globetrotters” cartoon on Cartoon Network for Sarah to watch?

I see her as a Meadowlark Lemon fan myself. I, however, always loved Curly.

The non-profit is not a conservative, Pro-Life, sponsored place. It’s a place where women get the help that they need without forcing a certain type of religion onto them.  The women are taught about safe sex, contraception and they learn to have genuine self esteem about their bodies and who they give them to.

It is, I would suggest, worth considering that this is simply another way of “forcing a type of religion onto them”.

It’s a different religion and world view, granted, but it’s still “forcing” in the same way. ie in that certain world views govern how these women are treated and what is said to them.

Not that that’s a bad thing, we all have a world view. But let’s not pretend that one scheme is biased and the other neutral.

RE: “Jeffey, I want individuals, like you. . . . to take your own money and sponsor, financially and emotionally, one of these women. . . . Stop spending money on ad campaigns, hotel rooms, transportation . . . “

Right, Jeffersonian.  Because we all know that you’ve never helped one of those women with your money. 

And oh yeh.  Also please cease all political or public activity to resist abortion’s being legal.

Thanks.

Well M. J. G. Pahls perhaps someday I will “grow” as you have but for now I remain mired within my more primitive consciousness

ROF, this is your last warning. If you do not refrain from personally insulting comments, your posting priveleges will be removed.

RE: “. . . because she is indifferent.”

Troubling, I know.

This was a tragedy, in the classical sense, in which the main character’s life sets up his end.  A murderer is murdered.  He had, perhaps, no time for repentance in that last moment.  We should grieve for that.  His murderer’s life is irreparably broken.  We should grieve for that, and pray that he will repent of murder.  Protesting murder by committing it is wrong. 

We should pray for both families.  Tiller’s family has issued this statement:

“George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality health care despite frequent threats and violence,” his family said in a written statement. “We ask that he be remembered as a good husband, father and grandfather and a dedicated servant on behalf of the rights of women everywhere.”

We should grieve for their loss, and pray for them to understand that what their loved one did was evil.

We should grieve for this ELCA congregation, both because of the violence it has suffered and because the pastor and people had not found a way to love George Tiller and abhor his deeds.  I see a small thanksgiving here, which no one has noted yet.  The shooter killed Tiller in the narthex with one shot.  Two witnesses were threatened, but not shot.  We should be grateful this horror was not committed in full view of the congregation and Tiller’s family and that no one else was hurt.

As of 1 a.m. Eastern time, I cannot yet find very much about the shooter.  One report said he had served time for illegal use of explosives.  In the days to come we will know more about him.  Perhaps, like the man who recently killed several people in a North Carolina nursing home, he will turn out to be mentally unstable—not insane, but not normal.  In any case, his family, whoever they are, will suffer greatly for his sin.

I don’t see any moral to this story, at this point, other than that evil begets evil.

Sarah,

I’m not sure that you are saying anything different than I, despite the divergent verbiage. My point is not that we cannot name evil or perceive it with a relative clarity, but that we name our own implication in evil even as we point it out. We don’t get to dispense eschatological justice (or, in my opinion, ultimate temporal justice) because we are not ourselves in a place of omnicient-omnimoral rectitude.

A perfect justice, such as that perfect justice we ascribe to God, requires a perfect clarity of moral vision and the rectitude of one who is not implicated in the mess. This is why the New Testament is so careful to exempt Jesus from sin, even as it emphasizes how he was like us in all other ways. Jesus stands apart from our individual and social evils and thus can condemn it and declare its defeat and impending expiration at the cross.

Put simply, “blessed are the merciful for they will be shown mercy.” The mercy of God is that we don’t get what our sins deserve and that, correspondingly, we don’t get to strangle the guy who owes us $5 after we’ve been extended mercy for a debt of $500. In other words, I take the Catholic Catechism on this point as my Northstar:

2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

“If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender ‘today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’”

ROF it does seem inconsistent to say that abortion is murder AND that it may ethically be chosen for economic reasons. Indeed to say that abortion may ethically be chosen is to say that it is not murder, isn’t it?

Of course we know that abortion may be lawfully chosen. We know too that the law does not hold abortion to be unlawful killing (ie murder). You have said you disagree with the law concerning the latter. I’m unclear why you agree with the law concerning the former.

If I had to re-describe your views using language that is not yours I would be tempted to say you act as if abortion is deeply regrettable (and in an ideal world would not occur) but that it may be ethically chosen. Therefore if you were consistent you should hold that abortion ethically is not murder (wrongful killing) since there are no circumstances in which wrongful killing may be ethically chosen.

Matt+

To clarify, there was no personal slight in what I said and I didn’t use the word “grow” at all. I am testifying to a change of disposition on the subject and in that regard I can understand a bit of where you’re coming from. That’s not a claim to improvement-hell, it could be a regression-but I am conversing in good faith.

MJGP+

RE: “A perfect justice, such as that perfect justice we ascribe to God, requires a perfect clarity of moral vision and the rectitude of one who is not implicated in the mess.”

I agree—but as humans we can do nothing perfectly, so that reality does not mean we are precluded from doing what we can in efforts towards either mercy or justice, much less truth, beauty, love, etc, etc.

RE: “We don’t get to dispense eschatological justice . . . “

I agree—but isn’t that rather easy anyway, since we don’t have the *ability or power* to dispense “eschatological justice”?

At any rate, to get back to what Matt said—“Hi Paula, it is never justified to take law into our own hands. See #53. That being said, while this was illegal and sinful…the result is not “unjust” . . . “

I see that as a nuanced position, and do not see, given our exchange, how you cannot agree with it also?

I also am intrigued about how ideal is the ideal world in which you join those campaigning against abortion. In other words is it so ideal that there really aren’t any circumstances in which you would want to limit the possibility of ethically choosing abortion.

Imagine you live in Sweden. There is significant social acceptance of, and government financial support for, single parents, high levels of contraceptive availability, excellent sex education (as you might see it), excellent childcare available and high levels of financial support for those on low incomes. Under those kind of circumstances are you willing to say that you would advise women not to seek abortions? Would you see abortion choice under those kind of circumstances as unethical. (FWIW abortions in Sweden number approx. 340 per 1000 live births. In the USA it is approx 291 abortions per 1000 live births).

Sadly, in the video news report linked to this story—“Kansas residents Respond to Shooting,” 100% of those interviewed are deeply saddened and grieved by his killing, not a one notes the downside to his “life’s work.” 
Furthermore, many use their 15 seconds of fame to laud Tiller for his brave and courageous work on beahlf of women.  Not a single one laments the loss of life the man was responsible for.

#161
I don’t believe you.
I don’t believe that you work for the organization you describe.
I don’t believe that you counsel women against abortion, or help those who decide not to abort with obtaining their GED’s or finding work.

Fox News has a report this morning that Attorney General Holder has ordered Federal Marshals to protect certain other abortion centers and abortionists.  Unless he is in possession of information about the shooter and his connections sufficient to demonstrate that a conspiracy exists, I would say the administration has already begun the political use of this event.

Let’s settle some of the preceeding yuckiness, shall we?

1 - That a person was murdered in cold blood is reprehensible to the nth degree.
2 - That babies are murdered for the sake of convenience of the biological mother and/or father is reprehensible to the nth degree.

OK?

I wish someone would delete the posting privleges of ROF who calls people “Massah” and says that her intention IS to be personally insulting.

#71, I know, I was just trying to spare people the savagery.  If you want to know, reading about those “procedures”(murders) is enough. 

And this

“Most third-term abortions happen because the mother is in danger, not because they just ‘feel like it”.

is utter garbage. 

Again, IF THE MOTHER IS IN DANGER IN THE THIRD TRIMESTER, THE MEDICAL SOLUTION TO THAT CAN BE THE DELIVERY OF A VIABLE CHILD.  It happens all the time for preeclampsia or eclampsia, e.g. 

And no pro-lifer is suggesting a mother be forced to keep her baby.  That’s why there’s that little thing known as adoption.

Matt,
I agree that it is not wrong to find satisfaction in justice. The trick is to be able to identify justice. In our fallen nature, we are too liable to define as just that which satisfies us, rather than that which satisfies God.

You have said several times in this thread that the shooting is sinful because it breaks the law   While you are correct in that statement, by (apparently) restricting the sin to violating Caesar’s law, you seem to diminish the enormity of the act. It is as if one were to charge the driver of a get-away car with driving without proof of insurance. How is the shooting of Tiller not a violation of the 6th Commandment?

I think I understand the nuance of Matt+‘s position - justice (going back to the hypothetical case) would have been served, but the meter reader should still be punished.  I do not however think that justice has been served in this case, because another human being has been ruined:  Going through life with the burdon of guilt, everyone telling him that “It’s okay, you did the right thing.”  Or, “It’s okay, you’re forgiven now.”  Or, “You did your time, now put it behind you.”

It would have been just had the meeter reader done the less passionate but just as heroic thing, of reporting the killer to the police;  and if the legal system were able to catch, convict and punish the serial killer.  He would be publically celebrated as a hero, without the scandal and without the punishment from the civil authorities. 

The other thing that bothers me, is if the meeter reader ought to be punished, but not put to death and not given a life sentence, how do we go about determining the appropriate punishment.  What is, “just a little bit, but not too much, please”, and what is the basis for even that system of measurement?  Moreover, is it established beforehand (kill a serial murderer, go to jail for 60 days, no if’s and’s or but’s), or done on the fly?

Can I just remind everyone to keep a level and cool head when it comes to this thread? We don’t want to ban people but we certainly will if you can’t keep to the posting guidelines.

How is the shooting of Tiller not a violation of the 6th Commandment?

Well, I am not Matt although I think my position is close to his - or at least I think I understand his position.
I imagine he would point out that
1. The 6th commandment is to not murder and murder in the Scriptures is the unjustified taking of life.
2. The Scriptures hold out the death penalty for murder and so one might argue that those that carry out abortions on a regular basis are to be considered guilty of murder.

Thus the shooting of this man was, under those assumptions, a justified punishment of a murderer.

However, Matt would (I am more than certain) point out that Romans 13 tells us both to submit to the authorities that God has put in place and that those authorities are the ones that God has put in place to punish wrongdoing (including, I would submit, the execution of murderers).

Therefore, the action is right in that it is the just punishment of a murderer and therefore not murder itself.
The action is wrong is that it is a blatant action of rebellion of those authorities God Himself has put in place.

Trust that clarifies.

sorry, a couple of typos. Trust it all makes sense nevertheless

I believe that we should do everything in our power to make abortion unnecessary so that it disappears - I don’t believe making it illegal again will accomplish that, I don’t believe gunning down abortionists will accomplish that.

Renz, I agree.  I’ve never cared much for the “Pray to end abortion” bumper stickers—I’d rather pray to end the reasons for abortion.  The terrible choice sometimes faced to save the life of a mother.  Serious complications such as the pre-natal discovery that the baby is not vital (ex. anencephaly) and where continuing the pregnancy could harm the health of the mother.  Incest.  Rape.  And in most cases, the moral bankruptcy of a society that saturates its entertainment media in images glorifying consequence-free sex, dresses its tweens and young women in clothes more suited for streetwalkers, tells its young people that anything is OK as long as it is “safe”, and utterly fails to acknowledge the awfulness of making “the choice”.

David Ould, in our country and, I’m sure, in yours, we do not permit individuals to bring “justice” to those whom they determine to be murderers.  We require a fair trial and judgment by a jury, and if the sentence is execution, that sentence is carried out by the state, not by an individual vigilante.  We can’t permit individuals to take upon themselves the functions which our justice system is supposed to handle.

The distortion here is that our Supreme Court has illegitimately forbidden the passage of laws which would have made Tiller’s late-term abortions illegal and punishable by the law.  But as to wrongs which are legally permitted, we have to go with “vengeance is the Lord’s.”  We cannot allow individuals to presume to impose sentence for society.

It’s amazing that the richer a country is, the less it values children.

Bloggers Note

RE: “I wish someone would delete the posting privleges of ROF who calls people “Massah” and says that her intention IS to be personally insulting.”

Fenelon Spoke,

1) We give more latitude to progressives. 

2) She recognized how apt my description was of the rhetoric about women and decided to try to use the key and telling word herself, applying it to me in an attempt to insult, because the previous description angered her.

3) True, that’s her intention—to attempt to insult, and attempt to cause offense to other people with whom she is enraged.  But how often does she succeed?  In my case, never and I’ll wager in other people’s cases very rarely to never, too.  Ask yourself why she tries so hard to accomplish that.  And ask yourself why that’s the tactic she continues to end up returning to, over and over and over, after a few comments of attempted clarity and debate. 

That being said, the danger in enraged progressives commenting and being allowed free reign is that the rest of the commenters decide to also call names and attempt to insult or offend others.  So far, things have gone great, and all five of us bloggers appreciate that.

Passion in discussing issues that we feel strongly about is great.  We’re all a passionate crew here about ideas.  And we can all do that while still adhering to the posting guidelines.

The shooting of Dr. Tiller was an evil response to a man who had committed many evil acts himself.

When we take the law into our own hands, we commit evil actions.  This is why forgiveness is so important.  We do not need to forgive just because the other person benefits from our fogiveness.  We need to forgive because we are saved from evil ourselves.

What Dr. Tiller did was unmitigated evil.  I am thankful every day that my son’s birth mother did not do the convenient thing when her husband left her four months pregnant with a six month old child.  I am thankful that she gave birth to my son and then gave him to my wife and I to raise and love.  We waited for three years for adoption because so many women are killing their children.

Please pray for the soul of the perpetrator of this sinful act.  Pray that he finds forgiveness from God and finds the grace to forgive others.  Pray for those who work in the abortion industry - pray that they might come to know God and His Son, Jesus Christ and that they find the means to leave the industry.  Pray for the women who are so twisted by their circumstances that they believe that the only option open to them is the deal of their children.  Pray for them men who get them pregnant and refuse to live up to their responsibilities.  Above all, pray for this country - that we will all repent, both of the evil that is abortion and of our society which makes it seem so necessary to many people.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

David Ould, in our country and, I’m sure, in yours, we do not permit individuals to bring “justice” to those whom they determine to be murderers.  We require a fair trial and judgment by a jury, and if the sentence is execution, that sentence is carried out by the state, not by an individual vigilante.  We can’t permit individuals to take upon themselves the functions which our justice system is supposed to handle.

I agree totally with your last sentence. If you did not think I would then you should read my comment again. And, dare I say it, more carefully this time.

RE: “Fox News has a report this morning that Attorney General Holder has ordered Federal Marshals to protect certain other abortion centers and abortionists.”

Katherine I kind of think this is a good idea.

I expect that the killer was a single crazed individual, along the lines of that guy who blew up the Oklahoma city place because he thought the government was evil.  But if there’s some sort of conspiracy out there to kill abortion providers, I’d rather have them protected than have the country descend into anarchy.

A question of clarity here.  I thought your comment #220 was exactly what David Ould meant.  Are you agreeing with him?  Or nuancing his position?

The thing that really strikes me about all of this is just how under judgement our country is for the terrible killing of babies that goes on every single day here.  We should probably all be on our knees, as Daniel was, and Moses.  Our country is doomed unless we repent and call on His name.  But God has repeatedly shown Himself merciful to countries who do repent.  Anyone who reads the history of Ninevah knows the sheer brutality and cruelty of that regime, before Jonah was sent to preach to them.

In the words of Jesus (Matthew 6:14):  “If you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.  But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” 
When God spoke creation into existence, life was imparted. Each creative act received His blessing.  BLESSING and LIFE belong together.
When death comes upon the land through sin, a curse falls upon the earth and greatly affects the well-being of mankind.  The only thing that can overcome a curse is BLESSING.  God’s LIFE always overpowers death.  His BLESSING always overpowers curses.

Dear Heavenly Father,
We choose to forgive those who gave themselves over to the enemy and brought such despair upon our land and in our lives, both Dr. Tiller and his murderer.  We humbly ask that our unforgiveness does not keep the effects of their sins bound to our land and our lives.  Help our unforgiveness.  We leave their sins to You and to Your judgment.
You know our needs far better than we.  Bless our nation and its government, Dr. Tiller’s family and parish, the pro-choice and pro-life spokespersons, and the news media.  We beseech You that this event will not be used as an incitement for violence.  Amen.

(Note:  Some of the ideas for this post came from a liturgy for the cleansing of a genocide site by Rev and Mrs Conlee Bodishbaugh.)

Yes David, thank you, that is precisely my position.

Katherine, with David, I encourage you to re-read what he wrote. Neither he nor I in any way condone “taking the law into your own hands”.

David Ould, and Matt Kennedy, I realize that neither of you is advocating vigilante justice.  However, this is what David said:

Therefore, the action is right in that it is the just punishment of a murderer and therefore not murder itself.
The action is wrong is that it is a blatant action of rebellion of those authorities God Himself has put in place.

Is Tiller’s death “just?”  No legal authority has said so.  Myself, if I were to think of a just punishment for the dismemberment of thousands of babies—well, I’d rather not think about it.  Tiller has now seen the Judge who is able to judge.  For myself, I have to go with appointed earthly authorities.

Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding what you say.  Probably so.

2) She recognized how apt my description was of the rhetoric about women and decided to try to use the key and telling word herself, applying it to me in an attempt to insult, because the previous description angered her.

She wanted to point out the fact that she never brought up the race of said, poor women, but Sarah did. She wanted to, and ‘aptly’ did, point out that Sarah’s racist use of ‘massah’ indicates the root of a very sad, racist stereotype of poor women who are on Welfare in this country.

She made her point.  She is happy!

3) True, that’s her intention—to attempt to insult, and attempt to cause offense to other people with whom she is enraged.

*enraged*  *attempt to cause offense*  I fit right in here.

But how often does she succeed?  In my case, never and I’ll wager in other people’s cases very rarely to never, too.

That’s why Sarah has to respond to my posts, and write about me in the ‘third person.’  It’s classic ‘passive aggressive’ behaviour.

And then, Prince Matt rides in to ‘protect’ Sarah, because she’s such a ‘fair maiden,’ telling me that because I point out her own ‘racist stereotype’ that I am insulting her!

Well, if my perceived ‘insults’ do not affect her, then maybe she can say that to Father Matt, et.al., and I can stop being admonished, since, well, it doesn’t bother her.  Is that fair?

Ask yourself why she tries so hard to accomplish that.  And ask yourself why that’s the tactic she continues to end up returning to, over and over and over, after a few comments of attempted clarity and debate.

Attempted clarity?  heh.

That being said, the danger in enraged progressives commenting and being allowed free reign is that the rest of the commenters decide to also call names and attempt to insult or offend others.  So far, things have gone great, and all five of us bloggers appreciate that.

The danger is that Sarah finds herself drawn to the words of the ‘enraged progressive.’

Passion in discussing issues that we feel strongly about is great.  We’re all a passionate crew here about ideas.  And we can all do that while still adhering to the posting guidelines.

Oh, it’s *passion* for Sarah, and *anger* for me.  Got it.

Well, I know that Sarah is not reading this, so I hope someone will let her know what I posted.

RoF

Katherine, well, One Legal Authority has certainly declared that the killing of a serial murderer is just. It is, unfortunate, that our lesser legal authorities do not comply with that Highest of legal authorities. This highest legal authority, however, has also declared that we obey the lesser legal authorities…so in this particular case, the just death of this particular serial killer was accomplished both illegally and sinfully.

Sarah Hey, #225, here’s the way I look at this.  Dr Tiller, and others, including many Planned Parenthood facilities, have a business model which involves killing babies.  The law permits this.  When one of the baby-elimination businessmen is the victim of a criminal attack, what justification is there for the Federal government to get involved in trying to stop other such attacks, unless there is evidence of criminal conspiracy?  Suppose a race track is attacked by an anti-gambling fanatic.  Will the Justice Department send out Marshals to protect all the tracks?  If they find evidence of a criminal conspiracy to attack race tracks, they will no doubt notify local police, and track owners will take additional security precautions.  What is it about abortion businesses which makes their protection the personal job of the Attorney General, barring evidence?

Of course if the Justice Department finds, after investigation, that Tiller’s murderer was part of a larger conspiracy and that others may be killed, it will and should take steps to prevent more murders.  It’s the assumption, a priori, that a pro-life conspiracy to kill doctors exists which bothers me.

And the beat goes on….

RE: “point out that Sarah’s racist use of ‘massah’ indicates the root of a very sad, racist stereotype of poor women who are on Welfare in this country.”

Not at all, ROF.  My use of the word “massah” to describe the attitude of people who claim that women cannot make decisions of moral integrity when under pressure is not racist at all.  Quite the opposite—it points out the condescension of the person taking that attitude and nothing at all about the women in trouble.

RE: “That’s why Sarah has to respond to my posts, and write about me in the ‘third person.’”

When I am responding to another commenter, I certainly do write about you in the third person.  When I respond to you directly, I respond directly. 

RE: “then maybe she can say that to Father Matt, et.al., and I can stop being admonished, since, well, it doesn’t bother her.”

No, ROF, you will be held to the posting standards of this blog albeit certainly at a much slower pace than with conservatives here who would have been banned long long ago.

Whether your rhetoric actually succeeds in its intentions is neither here nor there.  You’ve been warned on this thread about your personal comments not only concerning me but concerning another commenter.  And you’ve been warned on other threads as well, by a range of SF Bloggers, so no further warnings will be issued.

Please return to the topic at hand.

Thanks.

Jill,

Thank you for your post and the prayer.

Peace,
RoF

It would have been just had the meeter reader done the less passionate but just as heroic thing, of reporting the killer to the police; and if the legal system were able to catch, convict and punish the serial killer.

The meter reader has contacted the authorities, but the police have not only failed to catch, convict and punish the serial killer(s), they have defended and protected the killer(s) and made it illegal for the meter reader to get close to the house again, so he can no longer report on the evil inside.

#231, Tangentially, we have an administration that delights in grandstanding. So the use of Federal Marshals to defend abortion clinics has more to do with scoring political points than any application of law.

Odds are this murder was done by one man for his own reasons. Those reasons are likely related to Dr. Tiller’s job as an abortionist, but at present we have no way of being certain exactly what happened and why.

1. Unless it’s in self-defense, I believe murder is wrong;

2. Therefore I consider the murder of Dr. Tiller to be wrong;

3.  But if anyone thinks I’m not glad that there will not be any more innocent babies dying at this man’s hands, then someone else is wrong.

Ezekiel 33:11—

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

George Tiller was very wicked, but the person who killed Tiller was wrong to take the matter into his own hands.

Yes Dr. Tiller murdered babies.
But George Tiller was also a son, husband, father and grandfather. He was also a doctor that brought thousands of babies into this world. He was a man that did in fact save many lives. There was once a woman driving down the street, she began having chest pains, her daughter pulled into Dr. Tiller’s parking lot to seek help, he came out and saved that life, not leaving her side until she was safely in the hospital. He has saved the lives of many cancer patients. Dr. Tiller’s office works with several attorneys in the Wichita area to provide adoption services for his patients who wanted this option. He is also a doctor that provides services free if a patient can’t afford prenatal care. Not many doctors are willing to do that for anyone. Yes he was an abortionist and he paid the ultimate price for that, but he was many good things too that are being ignored.
His murder was not just.

And herein lies the tragedy that he will never be remembered for any of those “good things”.  Imagine how many more “good things” he could have done if he were not so busy providing abortions.

I grieve for anyone whose life is taken by another (including the state), and I grieve for anyone who thinks he has a license to kill, enacting a personal justice that is both legally and morally wrong. Jill, I, too, thank you for your prayer. Lord have mercy.

SSC494,
Dr. Mengele had a family too and a good practice before the war.

Right, Jeffersonian.  Because we all know that you’ve never helped one of those women with your money. 

And oh yeh.  Also please cease all political or public activity to resist abortion’s being legal.

I’ll have to consult RoF to see if my contributions of diapers and formula to Anglicans for Life are permissible.  In the meantime, it seems that the operative phrase is “Fork over the cash or the kid gets it!!”

Then, you read it wrong.  No, I said I will remain ‘Pro-Choice’ not ‘Pro Abortion,’

“Pro-life” and “pro-choice” are political positions, not descriptive ones, and imply positions outside of the abortion debate that may not, indeed mostly do not, apply.  So let’s stick to the topic at hand, shall we?

As for the rest, it is simply illogical to say one cannot oppose the murder of the innocent (which you seem to agree this is) without assuming responsibility for the victims.  It’s like saying one cannot oppose the bailout of GM if one is not willing to go buy their vehicles exclusively for the next 20 years.

Mr. Kennedy, this topic is about the murder of Dr. George Tiller, no one else. His murder was illegal and unjust. I refuse to be an advocate for murder or condone it by saying the murder of that man was “just”.

SSC494,

You are a guest on this site. It is not for you to determine when a thread has gone “off topic”.

Dr. Mengele is a murderer perfectly comparable to Dr. Tiller. Perhaps in some ways Mengele was a less murderous figure than Dr. Tiller if we are speaking in sheer numbers.

Fr. Matt, with your comparison to Megele, you seem to be saying that it was OK for someone to kill this doctor? I find your statements confusing.

I think my point is pretty clear…especially if you read the thread in its entirety but for a summary David’s #217 is good.

I think what Matt is saying, O, is that while the act of killing Tiller was wicked and sinful, the outcome was not unjust.  Matt, feel free to correct me if I’ve erred in my encapsulation.

I am pro-life. I believe that God has blessed all of his creation with the gift of life. As I write this, my second son, whose very existence was discussed but not expressly planned for at the time of his being gifted to sivib and I, is sitting in a swing in my office.

Having said that, I condemn the shooting of a doctor who performed abortions yesterday. What happened yesterday was not justice. What happened yesterday was not God’s vengeance on an unrepentant sinner. What happened yesterday was desecration and murder.

Let me say that again: A church, the Holy temple of the Living and Most High God, was desecrated by a man entering the building with a deadly weapon, pointing it at another human being regardless of the reason, and murdering a man. This was done with his wife sitting in the choir loft. It was done in front of young children who were just beginning to learn about God. Church is a refuge from the world. That refuge was taken from innocent children yesterday.

Those who call themselves pro-life today should be horrified by the prospect of this murder. This shooting was not justified. It was not consistent with God’s commands to us, it was not comparable to the killing of Rudolf Hess or Josef Mengele. It was murder. We are not at war, and this doctor was not wearing the uniform of the enemy. God was not glorified by the action of the murderer yesterday.

If you believe that killing Nazi’s and killing abortion providers are somehow equal in their morality, I will pray for you today in the same breath that I beg God to forgive me of my sins.

“it was not comparable to the killing of Rudolf Hess or Josef Mengele”

Actually it was quite comparable. If a hypothetical German citizen in 1944 were to do Hoess or Mengele what this man has done to Tiller we would have an almost precise moral equivalent.

people with no conscience will always do what they think they can get away with especially if there is a monetary reward…but it is interesting that neither he nor his church evidently felt any guilt in what he did…who could take their live child to a doctor who had just hours/minutes before savagely murdered another living child?

And I would hate to equate an organization that affirms an unrepentant serial murderer of babies, letting him serve as “usher”—a “Holy Temple”

Sorry, Jeffersonian, you haven’t established your “street cred” or “bona-fides” with the Progressive Posters here, so no soup for you!  Sorry buddy!

Now, I have to agree with Sarah (and earlier posters) that Matt’s position is sensible, if quite nuanced.  In my eyes, the correct analysis us requires that we separate MEANS from OUTCOMES.

I could CERTAINLY agree that the removal of life from someone who has in a premeditated fashion (read: Murder I) murdered thousands of children over the years is a just outcome.

That event that precipitated that removal of life, the method in which his death was accomplished, was illegal, immoral, and sinful.  But the outcome was certainly just.

RoF, I give thanks for you and all the work you are doing for the downtrodden, unwed mothers out there, and as a man who has adopted children (my oldest, 19, just graduated from HIGH SCHOOL!) and supported women in such positions in the past, understand how stressful, frustrating, and difficult it can be.  Many young men I am familiar with are unwilling to stand up and accept their responsibilities, and I find little in our society today to encourage them in that direction.

BUT (and this is a big BUT) women have throughout history struggled with what you suggest without abortion on demand, and society has prospered anyway.  Of the many things we can do for a destitute, low-self esteem unwed mother, the WORST thing we can do for them is counsel abortion. 

Don’t take my word for it, check the British National Health Service Statistics—over 80% of the women they are following post-abortion end up on medication for depression, whereas their control group (women of similar socio-economic status who delivered their babies to term and then turned them over for adoption) had a depression rate similar to their national average (about 5%). 

Abortion appears to be the psychiatric gift that keeps on giving, so to speak. 

To all of these difficult questions in life, I believe that abortion on demand is not the answer to any of them.

God Bless You…and KTF!...mrb

“If you believe that killing Nazi’s and killing abortion providers are somehow equal in their morality, I will pray for you today”

Thank you. Actually I do not think that “abortion providers” are “equal to Nazis in their morality”. The Nazis only murdered 6 million. “Abortion providers” have murdered 50 million.

BAh!  That 80% in an earlier post was supposed to be 58%!  Can’t type to save me!

KTF!...mrb

My thoughts on this murder of a murderer bring me back to the Bible; to many examples in the Old Testament and to the underlying principle.
Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds the blood of a man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.”
Matthew 26:52b “all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”
There is a principle involved here; those who act violently die a violent death.

The flip side is hidden within this:  Matthew 26:24   “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!  It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

What God decrees is just, the instrument He uses to bring about his justice runs afoul the law (of God and sometimes of man) and will, himself, be the recipient of God’s justice…one way or another.

Apparently this perp has a criminal record, including a fondness for making bombs:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2398-Boston-Top-News-Examiner~y2009m6d1-Antiabortion-murder-suspect-Scott-Roeder-had-ties-to-rightwing-militia-movement

Nice.  I suppose we should be grateful he didn’t blow the whole church up.  This man is a terrorist pure and simple.  And anyone who’s still tempted to think this act helps the pro-choice movement should have a look at the conservative blogosphere:

http://www.fivefeetoffury.com/:entry:fivefeet-2009-06-01-0002/

“Tiller’s murder sets back pro-life movement twenty years.”  Yep, I’d say that sums it up.

Look, except in self defense or in the line of military duty, I don’t believe in killing.  I don’t condone the murder of an abortion doctor, nor do I condone the deliberate killing of the unborn, except in cases where the life of the expectant mother can be proven to be at risk.  Furthermore, I don’t condone a woman’s seeking to have her unborn infant’s life….such as it may be while in her womb….terminated because that child is unwanted or unplanned for.  In the eyes of many, that woman is as guilty of the sin of conspiring to have her unborn child’s life terminated as that doctor is guilty of committing the unspeakable act itself.  Doctors are supposed to SAVE lives….not TAKE them!  The doctor in question here was a serial killer, but one whom the state tolerated.

st. anonymous

Who would think this “helps” the pro-life movement? No one has said that on this thread. It is interesting that that particular line has been so frequently trotted out…as if there is some kind of debate going on between those who think this sort of thing “helps” and those who do not. There is no debate.

As for this man. Yes. He appears to have a criminal record. But we were not discussing his personal history or his character. We were discussing this particular deed and its results.

I will pray for those that feel this was a “just” murder. They are traveling down a mighty dark and dangerous road. Prayers may help the light shine once again in the darkness surrounding their soul.

How the heck do you think he knew Tiller would be there, in the doorway, and not inside the church?  Was that Divine Providence, due diligence or just dumb luck?

Fidela, from some of the news stories I’ve read today, it sounds like the murderer had had it on his mind for awhile to do something at the church - perhaps he had been watching it?

#179. Matt Kennedy,

But the result of his sin was just

I fail to understand how you can say that something “just” came from a sinful act (Deacon Phil called it an evil act). You have called it murder and you have called it wrong. Wrong and unjust mean the same thing. You can call this just but I call it vengeance. Aren’t you really excusing what he did if this is in your mind “just”? Even if the idea crossed my mind, I would immediately repent and ask God for forgiveness.

Hi Dcn Dale,

Pretty standard biblical stuff. Babylon was God’s vehicle to destroy Judah. This did not mean that Babylon’s actions were right or lawful or even good. And yet the result was the justice of God.

The same is true here. This man did an illegal and sinful thing. I used the word “murder” above to refer to it’s “legal” not necessarily moral status. It was certainly a sin and it was certainly wrong. And yet the result is just. A serial murderer is dead.

#265. Matt Kennedy,
We will have to disagree on this. I am reminded of the Amish girls who were held hostage and then gunned down one by one. The oldest girl said to her captor, “Shoot me first.” The hostage taker committed suicide following his senseless and horrible actions. Members of the Amish community immediately went to the home of the shooter to forgive and comfort his family. To me, this is Christian behavior at its most basic level. The Amish being only human, may not have been right yet in their heart about it but they knew what Christ would command them to do and were obedient. This is the kind of thing the world hopes for from Christians. How we respond to these things is the fruit of our faith. Pax

I think some of us are having some difficulty with UNDERSTANDING what Matt is really saying. Fr. Matt, I am sorry I may have understated or overstated your position. Please accept my humble apologies in advance.

I think what Matt is saying is this:

1. The murdered doctor was doing clearly evil deeds to children - murdering them in the womb in his abortion practice;
2. With the death of this baby killer, some babies whom he had (probably) scheduled to die (condemned to death by his appointment/staff and execution date set in his appointment book) will now live as a result of Dr. Tiller’s death - since there are only a couple other late-term abortion providers for this murder-in-womb procedure;
3. There is s concept known as “justifiable homicide”, which in a lot of cases is a complete defense;
4. Whether a killing is a justifiable homicide or not is up to the interpretation of the law and the arguments of opposing counsels (State v. defendant);
5. Fr. Matt is simply bringing up matters for consideration and marshalling some good reasons why this killing may be viewed as a “justifiable homicide”, all things considered; and
6. As a priest, Fr. Matt is a courageous man and is boldly and clearly saying what some us know to be true, which is: a baby killer was shot dead yesterday (statistically 45 other homicides were committed in the US on Sunday), and as a result of Tiller’s death, some babies will live to full term and have a life.

My personal view is this matter is this:
Since the law already recognizes the concept of “justifiable homicide”, let the law take its course. If the Tiller killer is found guilty, let him face the penalty and punishment.

By the way, MOSES COMMITTED what some would accept as a JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE (in defense of the other- an obviously helpless Hebrew).

Unfortunately, most of the posters and commenter everywhere have already adjudged this killer, found him guilty without trail, and have passed judgment and jail-time on him without giving him a chance to explain/defend himself.

My two cents, FWIW.

Fr. Kingsley Jon-Ubabuco
Arlington Texas.

The target of the Federal Courthouse in Oklahoma City had its roots in the militia movement, where self styled leaders of the movement encouraged those angry at the government, and perceived outrages at Waco and elsewhere, to engage in a citizens rebellion.

The rebel rousers on the internet and other media stayed safely in their homes or offices. But there were a few disturbed individuals, such as Timothy McVeigh, that were influenced by this agitation and took matters in their own hands.

The same thing happened in the anti-abortion movement with Paul Hill and others.

Everyone has an obligation to consider the impact of their comments on others, including those who may not appreciate subtle nuances.  This murder was wrong.  It should be condemned by Christian leaders.

Amen, Dcn Dale.

Fr. Kingsley Jon-Ubabuco - has the state recognized the killing of any other abortion doctors as justifiable homicide?

St. Anonymous opined…
Apparently this perp has a criminal record, including a fondness for making bombs:

Please.  The man is not a “perp.” He is not even “The Accused,” as of yet. When the police charge him, you can call him “the defendant.” If and when he is convicted, and not until then, he will be the perpetrator.

The same thing happened in the anti-abortion movement with Paul Hill and others.

And the “same thing” happens every day on the other side… except that there are millions upon millions of victims, millions of duped accessories to the crime, and “rabble rousers” brazen enough to call the murder a “blessing”

It will be interesting to see how in the upcoming days and months, this story will be spun to show how ‘violent’ the pro-life movement is. For a little bit of perspective, here’s a death tally since Roe was decided:

Pro-life violence: 8 deaths (Tiller’s is the first in eleven years)
Pro-choice violence: 50,000,000+ deaths

Here’s a charming little cartoon produced by Planned Parenthood of Golden Gate, which shows just how ‘peaceful’ and rational the movement is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgLVZFvxVkA

Matt, if you’re still there, I’d like to ask this.

Since “all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory” and he who “stumbles in one point has become guilty of all,” would you say that any killing of another man would have a ‘just’ end result?

oscewicee,
I did not say so, and I do not know. But that is not even the point I am making. My point is this: Let the system work, and if the Tiller killer is found guilty, let him face the penalty, but not until them.
Again, a killing may or may not be justified in the eyes of the law. That is what the counsels, the jury, the judge, and the whole legal system is set to do.

Keep the peace and enforce the law. We pray for all involved in this case.

Fr. Kingsley+

#263 Fidela:
Tiller was an usher(!) at his church.  Most churches publish the usher schedule in the bulletin or newsletter.  Some even put it on the web.  It would have been a simple matter for Roeder to obtain this information, even without visiting the church.  Being an usher put Tiller in a uniquely vulnerable and exposed position.  Considering his oft-reported concern for his personal safety (including wearing a bulletproof vest at all times) I’m surprised he allowed himself to be put in such a position.  But I’m even more surprised that his church would permit it.

I think I’ve said all that I wanted to say on this issue. I want to thank Fr. Matt for taking the time to explain his thoughts, even though we ended up disagreeing.

I want to note too that I attempted to engage ROF’s ideas reasonably and charitably on numerous occasions in this thread and, to my knowledge, ROF did not reply once.

I still remember the night when the death of Sadam Husein’s sons was announced.  For some reason I felt a bit of sadness for Sadam Husein, knowing that, however evil he may have been, he too was a father and most likely had some affection for his sons.  A similar feeling comes when I read the news of Tiller’s death.  There are likely a number of people who have affection for this man in spite of what he has done with his life.  This does not in any way diminish the sorrow I feel for the unborn babies who will be killed by those like him, nor does it diminish the sorrow I have for those who are born and not loved by another human. 

The problem with enjoying justice through death is that it is not godly.  Does the Lord delight in the death of the unrighteous?  Every single human death is a tragedy.  I recognizae it as a defect in myself that I do not always feel this way, and I attempt to foster those feeling that are in harmony with this understanding.  Sometimes the GOVERNMENT must wield the sword to prevent a greater tragedy, but even then, the fact that the sword had to be swung is tragic.  Death is evil.  It is the last enemy to be subdued. 

Matt, from one priest to another, I admonish you to foster feelings that lead to the heart of God, and recognize as a defect those times when your feelings are not in line with God’s teaching.

oscewicee,

One problem I have is the readiness so many of us seem to have to draw the conclusion that what is “legal” is therefore “just”. I think you may come close to doing that in 269.

Christians are obligated to follow even unjust laws up and until the point comes when following it constitutes a direct violation of God’s law.

That was not the case in this episode, so the man who killed “Dr.” Tiller is guilty of breaking the law and guilty of sinning by violating Romans 13.

Interesting revrj that you would assume that a recognition that justice has resulted (in keeping with Gen 9:6) and a sense of joy that no more babies will be killed by this serial murderer leads you to believe that my “feelings” are not in line with God’s teaching.

Granted, my feelings are often not in line with God’s teaching, but I do not think that is the case here.

“Since “all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory” and he who “stumbles in one point has become guilty of all,” would you say that any killing of another man would have a ‘just’ end result?”

Well, as you say, we all deserve death. That is true…but most human sin will ultimately be punished by God. There are, however, certain crimes that God has explicitly declared must be punished by death—murder is one of those crimes (Gen 9:6). So in a general sense, yes, we are all worthy of death. And yet God has only provided a moral imperative for humans to exact that penalty on other humans in very specific cases.

Who gets to determine what is just or unjust?  Isn’t that God’s prerogative and not ours?

Matt,
There is nothing ungodly about feeling joy that this man will kill no more babies.  However, a quick reading of Ezekiel 33:10-11 will show that God does not delight in this man’s death. 

Does God love this man?  That is not a question about justice, but about divine love.  Does God feel sorrow over every person who rejects Him?  We do not have to choose between sorrow for this man and sorrow for the lives he took, just as God does not have to choose between the two.  We can, and should feel sorrow at the death of the unrighteous, just as we would feel sorrow if a son ran away from a loving home and was killed before he ever accepted and responded to that love.  Certainly we could say that he got what he deserved, and justice has been served on that miserable wretch who broke his parents hearts. 

It is a horrible waste of a life that could have been used to the greater glory of God.  It is the end of the opportunity for repentance and a return to God.  It is a beloved son who ran away, and from all appearances, never returned home.

Florida Anglican,

“Who gets to determine what is just or unjust?  Isn’t that God’s prerogative and not ours?”

Precisely my point. Thankfully God has already revealed his judgment in this regard—Gen 9:6

revrj,

Do you think I was kidding when I said, “I certainly hope he repented before he died”? I was quite sincere. I am certainly pleased that justice has been the outcome and that this man will not murder any more babies. I do not take delight in the broken law or the sin of the man who did it, nor do I take delight in the contemplation of the possibility that this man may be in hell. I pray that is not the case. At the same time, justice was the result and I am thankful. In the same way I would be thankful if, say, Dr. Mengele would have been shot by a German citizen the day before he performed the infamous 14 twins “procedure”. It would have been a good thing.

Fr. Matt, how do you decide which murders of the many that occur in this country happen to be God’s justice?

Kind of an odd question isn’t it oscewicee? Who knows what God is doing in any event unless he tells us directly. I did not say that God caused this killing as an act of divine retribution, nor do I think it possible to know that.

Rather, I have argued that the result of the killing is just. It’s not even a difficult conclusion to reach.  God has already revealed his just decree for murderers in Gen 6:9. We don’t have to “guess” what God’s mind or judgment is with regard to murderers. He has already revealed it.

Matt, I do understand what you are saying.  I am aware of how illegal acts can be used to bring about justice and/or change people’s opinions of the rightness of a practice or law.  And I get how an unjust act (murder)can result in a greater good (less babies being slaughtered.)  But that is the moral quandry that has faced Christians since the beginning. 

I know what my Church teaches and I submit to her in all things.  Even when I may have personal misgivings on some of them.  Such as the murder of a butchering bastard whether in 1930’s or now in order to preserve the life of innocents.

But this means the world continues being unjust and that the blood of innocents continues to cry out.  And that scares me and brings me to my knees a lot.  Because when we by reason of law or ignorance or indifference or inability become a people who allow such crimes to thrive in our midst we are creating a gap that only God’s justice can fill. 

And that justice to meet this great crime must surely be filled with a wrath that will sweep us up like leaves in a firestorm.  I tremble with wondering how long our prayers and our pleads for mercy can hold back God’s hand.  And (this I know is very Catholic) I truly know that if it were not for the pleads of Our Blessed Mother to our Son to hold back His wrath for a time, we would indeed be scattered.

So we must continue to defend life, to not sugar coat what Tiller and other abortionists do.  We must use science, morality, and ethics,and our faith to build a culture of life.

No more odd than I find your statements on these threads, Fr. Matt. But I give up.

Clarification

“But this (not committing a wrong by taking the law into our own hands, even when the act does result in a good.) means the world continues being unjust and that the blood of innocents continues to cry out.  And that scares me and brings me to my knees a lot.  Because when we by reason of law or ignorance or indifference or inability become a people who allow such crimes to thrive in our midst we are creating a gap that only God’s justice can fill. ”

Perhaps God is unhappy with people whose chosen profession is to suck unborn children out of a womans womb, cuts them into chucks through a vacuum system then spews them out like yesterdays garbage. Now Tiller has the opportunity to explain himself.

Matt, David
So did the shooter committ murder?

As defined by the laws of the US…we do not yet know since he has yet to be convicted.

As defined by scripture…He certainly killed without legitimate authority to do so. I guess I do not know the answer to that question. It would, to me, be the same answer we would give were Bonhoeffer’s group successful…or if a German citizen would have shot and killed Dr. Mengele. Would it have been “murder” as the sixth commandment defines it? I don’t know.

I am not sure that Scripture gives us a category of killing human beings besides
1) Murder
2) Accidental death (and the cities of refuge)
3) Punishment by those in authority
4) War (which those who attempted to kill Hitler were taking part in).
Perhaps I have overlooked something. I am not trying a “gotcha”, but I think it is reasonable to ask a minister to give scriptural grounds for their position.

Hmm… Maybe the accidental death category which I guess includes self defense might give some comfort, but I am not sure it does.

Your 4 is interesting since those who plotted to kill Hitler were also German…not enemy combatants. They were trying to take part but trying to take part arguably as traitors and lawbreakers.

I did not think there was a “gotcha” involved. I don’t know of any minister who is able to provide an answer to every question. I think we are discussing a topic about which there may be no clear answer. I do not think I would put the killing of Mengele or Hitler or Tiller in the same category as the cold blooded murder of some innocent guy on the streets…I don’t think simply identifying 4 categories (that are arguably incomplete if you take into account the possibility that Jeptha’s daughter was actually sacrificed and not given over to temple service) and then asserting that all killing must fit one of the four is sufficient.

Dr. George Tiller was a mass murderer. That is an undeniable fact. Yes, his murder was despicable. But I have no sympathy for his family who lived off the proceeds of the numerous murders he committed over a period of 30+ years. He reaped what he sowed.

Folks, I’m closing this thread down now - we’re at our unofficial 300-comment limit. Please feel free to continue this discussion here:

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/23027/